Dodge transferability in vehicles

[Tor]

Juicer Uprising has some interesting bits.

Page 65 has Pilot: Flight System Combat. It gives a dodge bonus. It also says if the person has auto-dodge, they can use it in flight. JU came out before the distinction RUE made between auto-dodge and normal dodge (possibly it came out earlier in some FAQ, can't remember) so would that have meant the dodge bonus applied to auto dodge bonus at the time, but not now?

I take it that's the big appeal for Juicers, since they could get their auto-dodge in flight using this thing.

The bonus attacks are also pretty interesting... this thing is mentioned as being strong enough to carry a borg on its description on page 86. Although the weight of the unit is given, if there was a maximum carrying capacity I didn't see it. If it's possible that larger full-converison heavy-armored borgs, or larger breeds of juicer (say, an Ogre turned into a Titan Juicer) or D-bees might be too heavy for the Icarus to carry, are we informed of this anywhere?

If it could carry a variety of borgs this makes me wonder about power armor. This stuff can be attached to armor by a magnetic seal, so is there anything preventing it from being attached to power armor? I could see how attaching it to something like a SAMAS which already has wings and jets, but something like a Samson or a Defender whose back is bare, would that be possible?

Would the bonuses stack? Similar to curiosities one might have about whether one can pilot a small PA inside the RPC of a big bot (in fact you can, the Super Trooper in NGR can be worn inside a Gargoyle bot) and get the bonuses of both.

The root of this Q gets to the Phaeton Juicer though (page 35). They can dodge even if piloting a vehicle that does not normally have one, such as a tank.

Does this mean absolutely no tanks ever have a dodge? Or that unless explicitly indicated that they do, we assume they couldn't? I guess they could still benefit (when piloted by non-Phaeton) of traveling at high enough speeds to incur strike penalties...

Only bot I can recall having no dodge (or roll with punch, or pull punch) is the Devastator in Triax page 80. The only PA is the Juicer Killer (Uprising page 78). Probably some other stuff but we remember the celebrities. I bet if the Phaeton made it to NGR they would be popular in this thing. Giving a non-dodging thing an auto-dodge sounds prime.

Could a Juicer fit inside a suit of power armor or does having all those tubes get in the way? I've begun to wonder if they might even have problems fitting into environmental body armor since they don't seem to wear it. The stereotypical Juicer Armor is non-environmental plate.

Could that be an expense saving thing? They have boosted immune systems so don't have to worry as much about air purification so save on the money needed for the systems? Kind of like how supernatural creatures don't often bother with them?

Or also I guess a freedom thing, like getting to feel some wind on your skin (even if AR doesn't reflect the exposure)

[The Beast]

Dodge bonus never applied to auto-dodge.

[eliakon]

How about....it allows a bonus to dodge AND it allows you to auto-dodge. So +x to dodge, and +0 to autododge. Simple enough there.....

Tanks and other vehicles may or may not normally get dodges....but even if they don't Phaeton juicers get a dodge while driving them.

I would not allow bonuses to stack. But that is simply to head of any munchkin shenanigans before they get started not for any specific universe reason.

[glitterboy2098]

i'd assume that with aircraft it would depend on the aircraft. so like, smaller aircraft (fighters fpr example) you can autododge and dodge in, but medium aircraft (small bombers, smaller transports, etc) you couldn't autododge in but can regualr dodge, and really big aircraft like big bombers or cargoplanes can't dodge at all, unless you have a special ability like the pheaton juicer, or write up for the vehicle says otherwise.

that said, it's probably just the palladium department of redundancy department. they love to remind people you can do various things when doing write ups like that.

[Tor]

Dodge bonus never applied to auto-dodge.

Yes it did, just like with auto-parry. This was why Juicers didn't get special auto-dodge bonuses in RMB but they got them in RUE, since by that point they were no longer applicable due to a new ruling.

[ShadowLogan]

Page 65 has Pilot: Flight System Combat. It gives a dodge bonus. It also says if the person has auto-dodge, they can use it in flight. JU came out before the distinction RUE made between auto-dodge and normal dodge (possibly it came out earlier in some FAQ, can't remember) so would that have meant the dodge bonus applied to auto dodge bonus at the time, but not now?

No it did not apply to auto-dodge at the time. With the exception of something like PP bonuses to dodge also applying to Auto-Dodge, I always took it that unless it said Auto/Leap-Dodge, a dodge bonus was just for a regular dodge and the two had seperate bonuses. Auto-Dodge always seemed to be more about minimal evasion effort to avoid a hit to retain the action per melee, where a full dodge was all out effort.

I take it that's the big appeal for Juicers, since they could get their auto-dodge in flight using this thing.

Honestly I don't see why the Auto-Dodge would be lost just due to flight or being in a vehicle automatically.

Would the bonuses stack? Similar to curiosities one might have about whether one can pilot a small PA inside the RPC of a big bot (in fact you can, the Super Trooper in NGR can be worn inside a Gargoyle bot) and get the bonuses of both.

If it worked this way, don't you think we would have seen an optimized Pilot suit of PA for 'bots by now? That we haven't points to a case of non-stacking IMHO. The closest things I can think of (one of Zaria's unit in RT1E: Strike Force, Equestrian-type Kittani PA in WB2 and WB7 can shed sections) don't seem to really follow this IIRC

I could see how attaching it to something like a SAMAS which already has wings and jets, but something like a Samson or a Defender whose back is bare, would that be possible?

Given one of the reasons its resticted to specific classes involves G-Forces encountered, I would say no partly based on this. I'd also say no on bulky PA, something closer to EBA in fit yes. But the pilot still has to be able to handle the G-Forces involved.

Could a Juicer fit inside a suit of power armor or does having all those tubes get in the way? I've begun to wonder if they might even have problems fitting into environmental body armor since they don't seem to wear it. The stereotypical Juicer Armor is non-environmental plate

Given they can select Pilot Robots & Power Armor as a skill, I don't think the tubes and harness will get in the way per say given they have to be able to accept people of varying sizes in different parts of the body. They may find it to slow for their tastes though.

As for EBA isn't it supposed to be custom fitted? Which would mean you can make allowances for the Juicer hardware.

Dodge bonus never applied to auto-dodge.

Never say Never.
Dodge bonuses I would agree from skills and such unless it is specifically mentioned, it only applies to regular dodge.

However those from the PP Attribute Bonus (which is said to specifically to apply to Dodge, Strike, and Parry) are specifically said TO apply to the Auto-Dodge ability (termed Leap Dodge, essentially it is Auto-dodge) in Rifts Japan under the Tengu RCC's HTH skill (pg69). Now that might be a special case for this HTH skill ability, but it does establish one instance only of a "regular dodge" bonus applying to an Auto-Dodge Ability, but it is also one that is spelled out to apply.

[say652]

For juicers I apply all dodge bonuses to the Autododge. They are that quick.
For a human or nonJuicer keep it seperate.

[Kagashi]

Page 65 has Pilot: Flight System Combat. It gives a dodge bonus. It also says if the person has auto-dodge, they can use it in flight. JU came out before the distinction RUE made between auto-dodge and normal dodge (possibly it came out earlier in some FAQ, can't remember) so would that have meant the dodge bonus applied to auto dodge bonus at the time, but not now?

correct. Thats how it is presented in RUE. The Shadow Update of JU has the same wording.

[say652]

The Raptor power armor gives the pilot an Autododge(from the machine) do bonuses from the machine apply in this case??

[eliakon]

The Raptor power armor gives the pilot an Autododge(from the machine) do bonuses from the machine apply in this case??

If you have bonuses to Autododge then you can combine them unless it says its a flat roll
So if you personally have +3 Autododge and your gear is worth +3 and you have a spell that gives another +2 then you have collectively a +8 to Autododge.

However you don't get to count the +11 to dodge that you have from other bonuses since in RUE Autododge and Dodge are different maneuvers with their own bonuses.

[Tor]

Can anyone find anything to indicate that you can't stack Flight System Combat bonuses with Power Armor Combat bonuses?

It seems like flight systems would be able to lift some of the lighter PA suits. Not sure how much as indicated in OP.

I think this is especially so in the case of the Death Wing in Lone Star since there is a suit of PA the pilot wears to resist the G forces, and it indicates that you use the power armor combat skill. It also adds some Death Wing specific bonuses. But it seems like you would use the Flight System skill here since it mimics the Icarus.

No it did not apply to auto-dodge at the time.

Source? Distinctions made regarding automatic parry would be interesting to hear.

With the exception of something like PP bonuses to dodge also applying to Auto-Dodge, I always took it that unless it said Auto/Leap-Dodge, a dodge bonus was just for a regular dodge and the two had seperate bonuses.

Why on earth would you have taken that stance prior to it being introduced as a rule?

Auto-Dodge always seemed to be more about minimal evasion effort to avoid a hit to retain the action per melee, where a full dodge was all out effort.

I don't see why the Auto-Dodge would be lost just due to flight or being in a vehicle automatically.

I figure because auto-dodge abilities are reflexes with your own body while dodging using an apparatus is more complicated, you have to move more mass, operate other systems beyond your own muscles, etc.

I actually like it, means that if you stick your Juicer in a PA or something, you might get the nifty stacked attacks per melee, but you lose your auto-dodge unless you're a Phaeton. Seems like a nice balancing factor.

Never say Never.
Dodge bonuses I would agree from skills and such unless it is specifically mentioned, it only applies to regular dodge.

However those from the PP Attribute Bonus (which is said to specifically to apply to Dodge, Strike, and Parry) are specifically said TO apply to the Auto-Dodge ability (termed Leap Dodge, essentially it is Auto-dodge) in Rifts Japan under the Tengu RCC's HTH skill (pg69). Now that might be a special case for this HTH skill ability, but it does establish one instance only of a "regular dodge" bonus applying to an Auto-Dodge Ability, but it is also one that is spelled out to apply.

The approach is more that since bonuses to parry applied to automatic parries (without explicit notation) that the same policy was done with dodges prior to it being outruled. Automatic parries and dodges functioned the same except for not costing an action.

[H.P. Hovercraft]

The Combat Driving skill gives a bonus to dodge, so I've always played it that vehicles DO get a chance to dodge normally.........but then, I've always played it that way. (Normal HtH dodge bonuses don't apply, but PP bonuses do...house rule)

It also depends on what the vehicle is attempting to dodge: another vehicle, an animal or a gunshot or missile volley (HU has some specifics regarding vehicle combat, but personally I've felt that the rules needed a little tweaking..........nothing official for Rifts, tho).

[ShadowLogan]

@Tor
Automatic Parry is said to replace Regular Parry (those with it don't get to chose to waste an action, or get any benfit from spending an action to parry, that means it replaces it). Auto Dodge is not said or implied to replace Regular Dodge. So Auto parry is not applicable in this case. Auto Dodge and regular Dodge then are seperate bonuses and have been since day 1 of RMB and even pre-dating it given 1E RT did have the Cyclone mecha with an Automatic Dodge (called Leap Dodge), and at no time did they say to stack regular Dodge Bonuses with Leap Dodge bonuses. PP is implied give the description on how it worked with regard to mobility (used to describe PP), but you have to have the ability of AD/LD to have PP Dodge bonuses apply (so a high PP doesn't automatically grant one AD/LD).

Robots and Power Armor are said to be extensions of the pilot, and their bonuses stack with the pilots HTH training. So if they have AD available, they can AD. Regular Vehicles, one could even argue the AD ability transfers over since it is as much about the pilot's ability to operate the controls as it is the vehicles ability to manuever. Now some vehicles aren't going to be able to manuever, and as such wouldn't be able to normally (that is what the Phaeton Juicer basically boils down to IMHO with regard to its passage).

[eliakon]

Just to be fair in RMB Autododge was "the ability to take a dodge with out losing an action"
And since there wasn't a bonus to Autododge either juicers sucked at dodging (well I have autododge but its a straight roll OR I can take a regular dodge to use my bonuses)
It just got wonky fast. Which is why it was changed.

[Raze_7]

The root of this Q gets to the Phaeton Juicer though (page 35). They can dodge even if piloting a vehicle that does not normally have one, such as a tank.

Does this mean absolutely no tanks ever have a dodge? Or that unless explicitly indicated that they do, we assume they couldn't? I guess they could still benefit (when piloted by non-Phaeton) of traveling at high enough speeds to incur strike penalties...)

First of all, many tanks are actually surprisingly fast. For example, the Tiger, a second-world-war heavy tank (and that thing was HEAVY, it could travel off-road for 68.4 mi [estimate] before re-fueling) could still manage 45 km/h. And, the T-34 was even faster.

Still think that hitting a tank with cannons is easy? Try playing a nice, extremely physics-based combat simulator game called War Thunder. Specifically, try playing Ground Forces in Realistic or Simulator modes. However, what about modern tanks, which is what Rifts would be based off of? The M1A1 Abrams MBT, and the M1A2, can both reach around 41.5 mph (66.7 km/h) at top speed, and can go from 0 to 20 mph in 7 seconds (7.2 for the A2). This is even faster than the T-34 (which is a nightmare to hit), which can only travel at a top speed of 53 km/h.

Tank parrying/dodging would also be ridiculously easy. The only thing that a tank has to do to turn at high speed is to slow one of its tracks, or stop it completely. This allows it to "angle" its armour, which can have disastrous affects on any shot, causing most to bounce. If the tank had chromatic armour, I would rule as GM that the laser would bounce completely, as most things cannot penetrate armour at a 20-30 degree angle, even light.

One last thing: while shooting at the side of a tank with a laser, keep in mind that, while lasers may move at the speed of light, even some of the best human neural speeds run at only around 60 mph, which means that, by the time you've pressed the trigger, unless you lead the tank a little, you're a quarter-second too late.

Sorry that I've taken everyone completely off topic, I just had to clear some things about tanks up.

[Raze_7]

I would make an argument that a vehicle only gets an auto-dodge if it is either A) a passive-assist exoskeleton and the wearer has an auto-dodge without the armour on, B) if the equipment is "meshed" to the pilot via electrodes (see: How to Build a Robot Army, by Daniel Wilson, PhD), or C) has some level of autonomy. Electrodes would allow interpretation of dodge-reflexes before the muscles even react (kind of like a +1 bonus), so the wearer would suddenly find his exoskeleton ("power armour") hurling him to the side before his muscles acted. Autonomy would also do that process, but even faster than electrodes would allow (+2).

For some of you out there who are in to exoskeletons and robotics, or have read the book I referenced, you may notice that I didn't include force-reflex exoskeletons. This is because they require kinetic input (ie: dodging) before they begin to act, so there is actually a perceptible delay (-1 to all dodge/parry rolls).

In fact, for most questions about robot armies, I would suggest that you read the book, How to Build a Robot Army, and it's predecessor, How to Survive a Robot Uprising.

[Kagashi]

Yeah, why RUE made the distinction between Dodge and Auto Dodge, but not Parry and Auto Parry, I dont know. If you are going to fix one, treat the other mechanic exactly the same.

[ShadowLogan]

Yeah, why RUE made the distinction between Dodge and Auto Dodge, but not Parry and Auto Parry, I dont know. If you are going to fix one, treat the other mechanic exactly the same.

Most likely because there is no issue: It is pretty clear that Auto Parry replaces/upgrades regular Parry. There is no benefit for a character who can do auto parry to do a regular parry that consumes an attack action.

Auto Dodge is not implied to upgrade or replace the character's ability to do a regular dodge in the RMB (or in my limited experience pre-Rifts in the megaversal system). That means there is a benefit for a character to do a regular dodge instead of an auto-dodge given the number of bonuses one can pick up for RD.

[glitterboy2098]

also, regualr parry exists mainly for a very small subset of characters.. almost everyone qualifies for the auto variety.

[Tor]

@Tor
Automatic Parry is said to replace Regular Parry (those with it don't get to chose to waste an action, or get any benfit from spending an action to parry, that means it replaces it). Auto Dodge is not said or implied to replace Regular Dodge

It isn't in RUE, but it was in prior books. Feel free to compare some exact cites and highlight what means different stuff in the old books.

Auto Dodge and regular Dodge then are seperate bonuses and have been since day 1 of RMB

That must be why all the Juicer NPCs in old books only listed a dodge bonus rather than a distinct auto-dodge one.

even pre-dating it given 1E RT did have the Cyclone mecha with an Automatic Dodge (called Leap Dodge), and at no time did they say to stack regular Dodge Bonuses with Leap Dodge bonuses.

Nifty, but has no bearing on Rifts. N&SS also pre-dates Rifts and had roll with impact not costing an action and different dodge mechanics too.

Robots and Power Armor are said to be extensions of the pilot, and their bonuses stack with the pilots HTH training. So if they have AD available, they can AD.

I might buy that with power armor, not necessarily with bots or those big seated PA like the Ulti-Max.

Regular Vehicles, one could even argue the AD ability transfers over since it is as much about the pilot's ability to operate the controls as it is the vehicles ability to manuever.

If that were the case, it wouldn't make sense to mention using auto-dodge with the Icarus's Wing System Combat as a special ability, if you could do it with all vehicles to begin with.

Auto Dodge is not implied to upgrade or replace the character's ability to do a regular dodge in the RMB (or in my limited experience pre-Rifts in the megaversal system).

It totally was, in earlier books. Not just for the Juicer, but even as late as Warlords of Russia for the Reaver Assassin.

also, regualr parry exists mainly for a very small subset of characters.. almost everyone qualifies for the auto variety.

I wouldn't call that small, several OCCs don't start with a combat skill and many monsters are unable to select one.

[The Beast]

Auto Dodge and regular Dodge then are seperate bonuses and have been since day 1 of RMB

That must be why all the Juicer NPCs in old books only listed a dodge bonus rather than a distinct auto-dodge one.

I will accept your answer of "Look at the NPCs" if, using the books that would have been available at the time of release, you can explain why Erin Tarn (WB4) has a bonus to save vs horror factor, and why Phobos (CB2)has the MDC he has.

[drewkitty ~..~]

(retraction edit)

A juicer's "A-D" was a bit different in that they could always (normal) dodge, which they got a sizable bonus, something even if it was from behind. Which is why one of the PAs in Rifts JU talked about the auto-firing guns on it would use up the Juicer's dodges.
-------
as to the pilot's dodge bonus applying to a vehicle's dodge....In my understanding: yes...but they need to roll their piloting skill to remain in control of the vehicle too.

Whether the pilot can autododge their vehicle is not covered by the text.

[Tor]

I will accept your answer of "Look at the NPCs" if, using the books that would have been available at the time of release, you can explain why Erin Tarn (WB4) has a bonus to save vs horror factor, and why Phobos (CB2)has the MDC he has.

Erin Tarn has a unique undefined ability, NPCs sometimes have unexplained bonuses or penalties that affect their stats. Like "why does Dunscon have MDC and how is it calclated".

We can still discern trends like no distinct dodge/auto-dodge in older books.

Phobos has a base of 200 MDC (PE 20 x 10) and gained another 100 to 400 from his experience levels, for a total of 300 to 500. He lost 249 to 449 MDC through an unexplained process, perhaps linked to whatever wiped out his psionic powers, which should have been 'minor' at minimum. It is possible that he accrued some kind of traumatic injury that exceeded his healing factor's ability to regenerate from. Perhaps a curse.

Basically: NPCs obey the rules as a default, and then as they deviate from where we expect them to be, we come up with brainstormed ideas that are cool to explain why they are like that.

Auto-dodge and dodge have had separate bonuses since N&Sr.

Where in Ninjas & Superspies does it mention dodge and auto-dodge having separate bonuses?

Far as I understand it, auto-dodge meant spending your first melee action to put up your guard so that later dodges would not cost an action. So you would still use normal bonuses.

Whether the pilot can autododge their vehicle is not covered by the text.

True but the writing of skills does allow us to reverse-engineer some implied rules.

"If the pilot has auto-dodge, he can use it while flying!" is presented as a "bonus" under "Piloting: Flight System Combat" (JUp65) this would mean that in situations outside people using P:FSC one is unable to use auto-dodge while flying.

It may be wrong for me to extrapolate that this applies to vehicles in general, of course. I would say it only applies to flying vehicles at minimum, perhaps. So a Juicer piloting a Samson could maybe use his auto-dodge while jumping around, but I would say a juicer piloting a SAMAS could not use his auto-dodge while in flight, since that is a "bonus" provided by FlySyCo.

[eliakon]

As far as I can tell.....Automatic dodge per se never existed in RMB.
Juicers had "gets an automatic parry or dodge on all attacks"
This was commonly interpreted to mean "gets to dodge with out using up an attack" but it could have simply meant "for any attack you may either make a parry, or burn an action to make a dodge, your choice but you will never be caught flat footed". It was later that Automatic Dodge as being "A dodge that you get to do for free with no action cost" became a thing.

Just my historical $0.02

[Tor]

Huh... never thought of it that way for Juicers... you have a point, it could have been interpreted

(automatic parry) or (dodge)
instead of
automatic (parry or dodge)

Pg 35 says 'dodging always takes up one attack' in contrast to 36 pointing out that parrying is done without losing attacks for combat-trained. Makes you wonder... when was the 'dodge doesn't cost an action' explicitly put out there in Rifts...

Automatic dodge did exist in RMB via the Metamorphosis Insect spell (page 182)at least:

"bonus to automatically dodge is +6"
"has 180 degrees peripheral vision, making sneak attacks impossible (automatic dodge)"

Though even in this case you could still have a point about the 'per se'. By looking at ability 3 in respect to ability 5, perhaps "automatic" dodge could have meant "in respond to sneak attacks" (ie behind or long range) like the Juicer.

I guess I just assumed a semantic match to automatic parry (automatic meaning no action cost) rather than "without willing it" or "even when unaware".

As an OCC ability I guess this would mean that even if a Juicer did not have a HtH skill (because realistically, you could be forced to get the bio-comp system without being trained as a soldier; or you could get a HtH skill mind-wiped) they would still have an option to auto-parry, which is decent.

Also makes you wonder: if you get auto-parry from 2 sources (hth skill, juicer OCC, strike/parry maneuver in N&SS) if something calls for you to lose auto-parry (like a twin strike) would you merely lose 1 insetad of both and still be able to do it?

Even as of World Book 10 Juicer Uprisings... off-hand I don't know where to look for a 'dodge without losing a melee attack' statement describing the Juicers.

Page 65's Flight System Combat 'if the pilot has auto-dodge' actually doesn't specify not using an action. I would say Jump Bike Combat kinda suggests it... unless they mean that jump bike dodges work on surprise/behind attacks?

Am thinking maybe it got introduced explicitly 'without using an action' in the GMG? I figure there must be an earlier appearance though... hm

[ShadowLogan]

It isn't in RUE, but it was in prior books. Feel free to compare some exact cites and highlight what means different stuff in the old books.

Auto Parry/Parry thing though is in several of the main books I have that (1E RT & RT2, Rifts MB, TMNTr, Macross2, PF2E, HU2E, and RUE, 2E RT) in the combat terms section. They are all lumped under the parry description because HTH training upgrades/replaces the ability.

The dodge description does not cover how to handle Auto-Dodge, or even suggest it is a possibility in those sources under the dodge heading. When Auto-Dodge does get explored in these sections it is a separate entry onto itself.

That must be why all the Juicer NPCs in old books only listed a dodge bonus rather than a distinct auto-dodge one.

I looked up a few Juicer's (Mercenaries, SB1o) previously, and you are right they don't mention it. So their AD bonus may be purely PP based (Juicer's have a minimum PP and it will always give them a bonus) as it isn't even mentioned they have AD IIRC. Which lead me to review the passage in RMB, which makes me wonder if the passage was being misinterpreted and just became the de-facto view as elikon (and drewkitty) mentions because "automatic parry or dodge" can be read to mean either "automatic parry or [automatic] dodge" or "automatic parry or [regular] dodge". The ability in either case though is clear that it allows one to dodge/parry attack outside their line of vision (which is a normal requirement per the rules).

Nifty, but has no bearing on Rifts. N&SS also pre-dates Rifts and had roll with impact not costing an action and different dodge mechanics too.

I have to disagree. The lines that pre-date Rifts helped shape the system as it evolved into RMB, which then effected other megaversal lines that followed it, which fed back into Rifts for UE, and went further into RT2E and DR.

I would also point out that portions of the text can be seen as copy & paste between the two books in places, with differences for the setting. So I wouldn't say it has no bearing given that level of overlap. Said C&P also exists between other books (ironically a bad C&P from RUE made it into RT 2E concerning missiles).

I might buy that with power armor, not necessarily with bots or those big seated PA like the Ulti-Max.

They specifically state that game mechanically 'bots operate just like PA for the pilots so it would transfer, they don't mention making some exception on what transfers and what doesn't.

If that were the case, it wouldn't make sense to mention using auto-dodge with the Icarus's Wing System Combat as a special ability, if you could do it with all vehicles to begin with.

Identifying automatic parry in the Juicer description(s) though makes little sense because the character already has that as a function of their HTH training by the rules. So it can be there just as a reminder.

It totally was, in earlier books. Not just for the Juicer, but even as late as Warlords of Russia for the Reaver Assassin.

Look at HTH styles that post date RMB (pre-date RUE) that include the auto-dodge ability:
-Tengu RCC in Rifts Japan. One of its abilities is Leap Dodge, which mechanically IS Auto-Dodge (don't ask me why they did not just call it Auto-Dodge). They get Dodge (regular) and Leap Dodge at level 1 (Leap Dodge falls under their "powers" at level 1 under the techniques known at level 1).
-HTH Aikido in Rifts Japan has Auto dodge at low level, and a regular dodge bonus at higher level. Kendo also as AD at high level, but no additional dodge bonuses of any kind after it
-HTH: Commando from CWC. Level 2 dodge bonus, Level 5 Automatic Dodge, Level 6 dodge bonus, Level 7 Automatic Dodge bonus, Level 12 Automatic Dodge Bonus AND SEPARATE Dodge bonus

WB2's Serpent PA (Kittani) has bonus to Regular Dodge and Auto-Dodge listed separately. WB7's Kittani War Fish PA also lists them separately.

So no, it wasn't implied in RMB itself, and it certainly isn't implied in four other books where the ability appears (unlike RMB, and apparently WB10 and WB17). Both WB8 and WB11 under expanded section of the Martial Arts Combat Terms and Moves has added Auto Dodge to the list. WB11 even mentions this is how it is supposed to function. It isn't an upgrade/replacement for a Regular Dodge, it is separate and is supposed to be separate otherwise they would have lumped it under Dodge. The PA descriptions are quite clear that AD and normal/regular dodge are separate bonuses.

[drewkitty ~..~]

While Juicers have specile rules governing their actions in the RMB, which were expanded on in JU, those actions were not a part of the combat lexicon in the RMB (1985 printing).

Eli did point out that that the wording of the talked about text can be interpteted differently.

[eliakon]

Auto-dodge and dodge have had separate bonuses since N&Sr.

Where in Ninjas & Superspies does it mention dodge and auto-dodge having separate bonuses?

Far as I understand it, auto-dodge meant spending your first melee action to put up your guard so that later dodges would not cost an action. So you would still use normal bonuses.

In that said bonuses a given independently of each other. This is supported by the said bonuses are also given independently of each other in Mystic China.

However, this is not about the N&S setting. I was just pointing out a misspeaking.

Err to be fair in N&SS there was one dodge bonus that applied to all dodges (Dodge, Automatic Dodge, Multiple Dodge)
This is why all martial arts simply gave a +X dodge bonus and then told us what dodges they had. (there are no examples that I am aware of of any art having a bonus specifically to Automatic Dodge or Multiple Dodge)
Mystic China came out later after Automatic Dodge was split off into its own thing and thus they were in the process of reforming the system (a process that never finalized) which is why they had the separate bonuses (which doesn't make a whole lot of sense considering the way that N&SS combat works compared to combat in the rest of the game lines)

[Tor]

Auto Parry/Parry thing though is in several of the main books I have that (1E RT & RT2, Rifts MB, TMNTr, Macross2, PF2E, HU2E, and RUE, 2E RT) in the combat terms section. They are all lumped under the parry description because HTH training upgrades/replaces the ability.

The dodge description does not cover how to handle Auto-Dodge, or even suggest it is a possibility in those sources under the dodge heading. When Auto-Dodge does get explored in these sections it is a separate entry onto itself.

That's because auto-parry is more common than auto-dodge. Less common moves are not always discussed in glossaries even though they exist ni the game.

I looked up a few Juicer's (Mercenaries, SB1o) previously, and you are right they don't mention it. So their AD bonus may be purely PP based (Juicer's have a minimum PP and it will always give them a bonus) as it isn't even mentioned they have AD IIRC.

Even if it were purely PP based it would still make sense to list it. The lack of listing it makes it look like you use normal dodge bonuses for it.

as elikon (and drewkitty) mentions because "automatic parry or dodge" can be read to mean either "automatic parry or [automatic] dodge" or "automatic parry or [regular] dodge".

I also reiterated that observation.

The lines that pre-date Rifts helped shape the system as it evolved into RMB, which then effected other megaversal lines that followed it, which fed back into Rifts for UE, and went further into RT2E and DR.

Although pre-existing systems certainly influenced Rifts, we should not necessarily assume that Rifts uses the same mechanics, much as I'd like for that to be so.

A leap dodge is also not necessarily what an auto-dodge is.

I would also point out that portions of the text can be seen as copy & paste between the two books in places, with differences for the setting. So I wouldn't say it has no bearing given that level of overlap. Said C&P also exists between other books (ironically a bad C&P from RUE made it into RT 2E concerning missiles).

I love missile talk but I'll get distracted if I ask about it here

They specifically state that game mechanically 'bots operate just like PA for the pilots so it would transfer, they don't mention making some exception on what transfers and what doesn't.

Where does it say they work just like them?

Bots clearly have some major differences, like being able to combine the actions of multiple pilots.

Identifying automatic parry in the Juicer description(s) though makes little sense because the character already has that as a function of their HTH training by the rules. So it can be there just as a reminder.

I disagree, as it is possible to lose a skill by some means, at which point the drug-induced auto-parry could be useful.

That and it is also mentioning that the 'react to surprise attacks' is applying to the auto-parry.

Look at HTH styles that post date RMB (pre-date RUE) that include the auto-dodge ability:
-Tengu RCC in Rifts Japan. One of its abilities is Leap Dodge, which mechanically IS Auto-Dodge (don't ask me why they did not just call it Auto-Dodge).

because it is not just an auto-dodge, it is a leap dodge.

Just because 2 things are dodges and do not cost an action doesn't mean they're the same thing. There are different kinds of strikes which are both kicks yet work differently.

I'd say a key diff is that a leap dodge lets you relocate your jumping distance while an autododge doesn't.

They get Dodge (regular) and Leap Dodge at level 1 (Leap Dodge falls under their "powers" at level 1 under the techniques known at level 1).
-HTH Aikido in Rifts Japan has Auto dodge at low level, and a regular dodge bonus at higher level. Kendo also as AD at high level, but no additional dodge bonuses of any kind after it

-HTH: Commando from CWC. Level 2 dodge bonus, Level 5 Automatic Dodge, Level 6 dodge bonus, Level 7 Automatic Dodge bonus, Level 12 Automatic Dodge Bonus AND SEPARATE Dodge bonus

Yup, those stack. I did some diggnig last night and discovered that the Kittani Serpent (Atlantis 140) has a distinct 'automatic dodge' and 'normal dodge' bonus. The automatic dodge bonus is higher. So it is okay for automatic dodge bonuses to exceed normal dodge bonuses.

Since this shows that the system will go out of its way to specify "normal dodge", this means that anything that is just 'dodge' was clearly meant to apply to all dodges. Much like +1 to strike vs +1 to hand strikes.

WB2's Serpent PA (Kittani) has bonus to Regular Dodge and Auto-Dodge listed separately.

Ah, you found it too. No it's "normal dodge", which as above, means that just "dodge" does not excluside auto-dodge, while 'normal dodge' would.

WB7's Kittani War Fish PA also lists them separately.

But again, only by saying 'normal dodge' do you exclude the automatic.

Both WB8 and WB11 under expanded section of the Martial Arts Combat Terms and Moves has added Auto Dodge to the list.

I'm not as familiar with WB8 so I didn't remember it had a list of terms.

WB11 came out after Juicer Uprising, I was discussing the books that preceded it.

WB11 even mentions this is how it is supposed to function. It isn't an upgrade/replacement for a Regular Dodge, it is separate and is supposed to be separate otherwise they would have lumped it under Dodge.

Are you talking about the header under HtH commando on paeg 72?

Where it says "roll to dodge as usual", calls it "the dodge maneuver" and says it "functions just like a parry" ?

Parrying retains parry bonuses when it upgrades to automatic parry, so automatic dodge would as well.

This means RAW at the time, the auto-dodge bonuses would stack on top of the dodge bonuses.

This is even the case with RUE since it neglected to include explicit "don't use non-auto bonuses" language like HU2, have pointed this out in previous threads.

The PA descriptions are quite clear that AD and normal/regular dodge are separate bonuses.

I don't think 'regular' is used. 'Normal dodge' and 'automatic dodge' were separate, but they were both a 'dodge'.

If I say a move that added to 'standard parry' and 'automatic parry' then I would have assumed them distinctive, but if it was just to 'parry' then I would've applied it to both.

in N&SS there was one dodge bonus that applied to all dodges (Dodge, Automatic Dodge, Multiple Dodge)
This is why all martial arts simply gave a +X dodge bonus and then told us what dodges they had. (there are no examples that I am aware of of any art having a bonus specifically to Automatic Dodge or Multiple Dodge)

Mystic China came out later after Automatic Dodge was split off into its own thing and thus they were in the process of reforming the system (a process that never finalized) which is why they had the separate bonuses (which doesn't make a whole lot of sense considering the way that N&SS combat works compared to combat in the rest of the game lines)

Did some of the new (or existing but amended) arts in MC include explicit auto-dodge bonuses?

If it's there my eyes are passing over...

Recalling these 'leap' bonuses were interesting for combat ranges, wonder if they could function as a dodge, not sure. Cool if you can get to long range where guys can't attack you though.

[ShadowLogan]

Although pre-existing systems certainly influenced Rifts, we should not necessarily assume that Rifts uses the same mechanics, much as I'd like for that to be so.

A leap dodge is also not necessarily what an auto-dodge is.

I have to disagree. The per-existing system lines are supposed to be compatible with Rifts mechanically with little or no conversion. That is why Rifts has a Conversion book that covers nearly every setting (PB does), and the changes are more in terms of HP/SDC/MDC values, in a few instances the lines use a different definition on the length of the melee so that has to be accounted for (aside from cultural impact, overly specific like Chi, and gaining new skills as a result of traveling to Rifts Earth, etc).

While there are certain aspects that make Leap Dodge appear different than Auto Dodge, mechanically they operate in the same manner. "An automatic dodge just like the parry, with no loss of attacks per melee. The cyclone is so mobile that the pilot can leap, hop, and skip out of the way without penalty."-RT2Sent from 1E pg57 under Cyclone Combat training for the mecha's Leap Dodge bonus. Even HTH: Tengu establishes that mechanically it is an Auto-Dodge.

Where does it say they work just like them?

Bots clearly have some major differences, like being able to combine the actions of multiple pilots.

Rifts Main Book pg39, 1st paragraph under the heading of "De terming the Number of Attacks Per Melee and Combat Bonuses." 2 paragraphs later, and on page 40 further reinforce the statement. At no time is an exception said to be made for bonuses in general (there may be specific cases in their individual writeup where the design prevents it, but IINM that is generally mentioned in the those specific cases).

I didn't look in RUE, but similar statements also appear in RT1E and Mac2.

I disagree, as it is possible to lose a skill by some means, at which point the drug-induced auto-parry could be useful.

That and it is also mentioning that the 'react to surprise attacks' is applying to the auto-parry.

That it is mentioned in relation to surprise attacks isn't the issue, it is why it's described as auto-parry when the character already has auto parry.

Yup, those stack. I did some diggnig last night and discovered that the Kittani Serpent (Atlantis 140) has a distinct 'automatic dodge' and 'normal dodge' bonus. The automatic dodge bonus is higher. So it is okay for automatic dodge bonuses to exceed normal dodge bonuses.

Since this shows that the system will go out of its way to specify "normal dodge", this means that anything that is just 'dodge' was clearly meant to apply to all dodges. Much like +1 to strike vs +1 to hand strikes.

No the examples don't stack together. I've never said the AD bonus can't be higher than a RD bonus, given how HTH works with RC:E/B the actual Dodge Bonus can be higher than AD after all is said and done.

The system goes out of its way when the "normal" (I term it "regular" in my previous posts) and "auto" appear together. That does not mean that anything "dodge" is meant to apply to all dodges, because the vernacular is for "dodge" to mean "normal"/"regular" type when it is just alone. They do no state anywhere the AD replaces a normal dodge (you can still elect to do a normal dodge, you can not elect to do an action consuming parry if you have "auto parry"), nor to add the bonuses together (The only exception that gets notes is for PP bonus, and that only applies if you have AD ability itself).

I'm not as familiar with WB8 so I didn't remember it had a list of terms.

WB11 came out after Juicer Uprising, I was discussing the books that preceded it.

WB8 introduces 8 HTH sytles (one for Samurai and Ninja each, Tengu, Aikido, Kendo, Judo, Jusitsu, Karate) and does have a section on terms in the main section that covers the more open general styles. It is a two page spread, not counting anything that is specifically addressed with the styles covered separately (like Tengu). The only difference between WB8 and WB11's mention is the note.

WB11 may have come out after JU, but you did bring up an example from Warlords of Russia, which also post dates JU.

That WB11 describes it as "roll to dodge as normal" which means you resolve it just like like a normal dodge: D20 +PP Bonus +Auto-Dodge specific Bonus. Just like Parry, Roll, Strike, and Entangle. Apparently some people DO take the "automatic parry" (and "automatic dodge") to mean you do not have to roll (RCB1r pg15 concerning Auto Dodge mentions this being an issue, so the writers took time to clarify).

If I say a move that added to 'standard parry' and 'automatic parry' then I would have assumed them distinctive, but if it was just to 'parry' then I would've applied it to both.

Doesn't work because the two parry options are mutually exclusive. You can not pick and chose which parry method to use... Unlike Auto-DOdge/Dodge, or Strike w/certain conditions (melee, range, etc).

[Tor]

The per-existing system lines are supposed to be compatible with Rifts mechanically with little or no conversion.

Supposed to, yes. Since they aren't, we still primarily interpret them from their own basis, since inter-system differences exist.

I'm already forgetting why this came up... Veritch auto-dodge bonuses or something I think? Keeping in mind that having bonuses to auto-dodge does not mean that normal dodge bonuses do not apply (any more than having bonuses to hand strikes meaning normal strike bonuses do not apply) I wonder if Robotech even has any text like HU2 saying not to add nonPP dodge bonuses to autoD?

"An automatic dodge just like the parry, with no loss of attacks per melee. The cyclone is so mobile that the pilot can leap, hop, and skip out of the way without penalty."-RT2Sent from 1E pg57 under Cyclone Combat training for the mecha's Leap Dodge bonus.

It does seem like leap dodges are meant to be a kind of automatic dodge.

I would just say that not all automatic dodges will necessarily also be leap dodges. The Kittani Serpent PA being a good example since it cannot jump.

So for that reason, statements about leap dodges may not necessarily inform us about other kinds of auto-dodges which may not be leap dodges.

Rifts Main Book pg39, 1st paragraph under the heading of "De terming the Number of Attacks Per Melee and Combat Bonuses." 2 paragraphs later, and on page 40 further reinforce the statement. At no time is an exception said to be made for bonuses in general (there may be specific cases in their individual writeup where the design prevents it, but IINM that is generally mentioned in the those specific cases).

This talks about PA and Bots stacking attacks and bonuses. It doesn't go so far as to say that it stacks all abilities or maneuvers though.

Like obv you can't do a 'jump kick' with a serpent PA since it has no legs. Or with the Juicer-Killer you can't a dodge or a body flip due to its bulkiness. Or the Devastator which can't dodge (but has an epic body flip)

The very mechanical design of some PA and Bots mean some moves are not possible. I guess I just wonder about automatic dodge.

It does say bots/PA build on the reflexes though, and autoD is a reflex, so I can see the argument for retaining it.

In this case, the bit about being able to auto-dodge while using the Icarus may refer to non-PA and non-bot flying vehicles, since those lack the symbiotic nature of bots/PA.

It may also apply to non-bot non-PA ground or water vehicles, not totally clear there.

It certainly applies to some kinds (perhaps all?) tanks, since Phaetons are unique in being able to dodge (and auto-dodge) in them.

That it is mentioned in relation to surprise attacks isn't the issue, it is why it's described as auto-parry when the character already has auto parry.

Both are the issue because there are 2 possibilities for why they say this:
1) so that you know the ability to react applies to automatic parries and not just standard -costs an action- parries
2) to imbue the ability to autoparry if there character lacks it (such as a person forcibly given the juicer conversion but not the OCC training, or a person with the training who suffers brain damage and forgets their HtH skill)

Also it is possible that a Juicer might engage in a form of combat that does not supply an automatic parry, like if they learned the Pao Chich art from Mystic China which only teaches a dodge, no parries. I figure their OCC ability would let them use the auto-parry in this case.

No the examples don't stack together.

If you visit HU2 or want to apply the HU2 rules to other games, I completely agree. It is the only game whose core rule book explicitly forbid adding dodge bonuses to auto-dodge bonuses. You get the impression this is the case from RUE but the difference in language has been demonstrated.

The system goes out of its way when the "normal" (I term it "regular" in my previous posts) and "auto" appear together. That does not mean that anything "dodge" is meant to apply to all dodges.

No, the way language works means that. The same way that + to parry applies to all parries (including automatic or circular). The distinguishing of a standard dodge bonus as opposed to a dodge bonus suggests it's necessary to do that to except abnormal (like auto) dodges.

The only exception that gets notes is for PP bonus, and that only applies if you have AD ability itself).

In HU2 yes. RUE only goes so far as to tell you to use autoD and PP bonuses, not to exclude dodge bonuses.

WB11 may have come out after JU, but you did bring up an example from Warlords of Russia, which also post dates JU.

You mentioned "under expanded section of the Martial Arts Combat Terms and Moves". I don't know if it describes Japan, I'll check, but I don't recall this being in CWC, except under the note of moves that HtH Commando gives.

In which case it wouldn't really be a 'separate' listing unless dodge was also reprinted in the section.

Even in the case of separate listings, this doesn't mean anything regarding bonuses. Automatic body flip and body flip have had separate listings yet you still use body flip bonuses with automatic body flips.

WoR was used to show the Reaver assassin whose auto-dodge says it works like a normal one (and normal dodges use dodge bonuses) cept for not costing an attack.

That WB11 describes it as "roll to dodge as normal" which means you resolve it just like like a normal dodge: D20 +PP Bonus +Auto-Dodge specific Bonus.

Excluding 'dodge' bonuses and including auto-dodge bonuses is not "just like a normal dodge" because normal dodges do not use that kind of bonus.

Other statements that say 'works like a parry' indicate that, like how auto-parries use parry bonuses, auto-dodge bonuses would use dodge bonuses.

the two parry options are mutually exclusive. You can not pick and chose which parry method to use

[/quote]
I don't agree. Someone with the auto-parry ability can still opt to use an action to do a parry if they wanted to.

This was quite necessary in N&SS since certain moves couldn't be defended against using auto-parry and required an action to defend against. You would also see separate listings ("Parry, Automatic Parry") under Defensive moves.

In Rifts, you lose your automatic parry if you do a paired WP technique. You are still able to do a standard dodge or parry though.

[ShadowLogan]

I'm already forgetting why this came up... Veritch auto-dodge bonuses or something I think? Keeping in mind that having bonuses to auto-dodge does not mean that normal dodge bonuses do not apply (any more than having bonuses to hand strikes meaning normal strike bonuses do not apply) I wonder if Robotech even has any text like HU2 saying not to add nonPP dodge bonuses to autoD?

1E RT was like Rifts Main Book, they don't have a section in the terms in how to handle it, its more like a note when it appears. HU2E and RUE are different, they actually address it.

I would just say that not all automatic dodges will necessarily also be leap dodges. The Kittani Serpent PA being a good example since it cannot jump.

Based on the description of how dodges in general are portrayed, and that includes leap, from a movement standpoint they are the same. you dodge (leap, auto, normal) my moving out of the way in some fashion, I wouldn't consider the description from the Cyclone entry the end/all be/all of how it can be portrayed given Leap Dodge also appears in the Macross2 RPG line and describes it as "move or leap out of the way".

This talks about PA and Bots stacking attacks and bonuses. It doesn't go so far as to say that it stacks all abilities or maneuvers though.

"This same is done to determine the pilot's combat bonuses to strike, parry, dodge, etc."-pg39 RMB. Italic Emphasis in the book, Bold Emphasis mine. They don't list every single applicable bonus/manuever here, and they acknowledge that it goes farther with the "etc" bit. So bonuses to Roll, Pull Punch, Entangle, and Auto-Dodge still apply for the pilot of a PA or 'bot.

Now I agree the design of a bot/pa can remove possibility of some moves (like kick), but it should be obvious if move X is possible or not, and it can also introduce new moves (tail use for ex). Automatic dodge and other manuevers being unavailable should be obvious or specifically addressed in the design.

1) so that you know the ability to react applies to automatic parries and not just standard -costs an action- parries
2) to imbue the ability to autoparry if there character lacks it (such as a person forcibly given the juicer conversion but not the OCC training, or a person with the training who suffers brain damage and forgets their HtH skill)

#1. It is still not necessary because they have it already.
#2. Possible, but those aren't standard situations that should be covered I would think.

f you visit HU2 or want to apply the HU2 rules to other games, I completely agree. It is the only game whose core rule book explicitly forbid adding dodge bonuses to auto-dodge bonuses. You get the impression this is the case from RUE but the difference in language has been demonstrated.

Rifts Ultimate Edition IS CLEAR, you don't stack normal dodge bonuses with auto-dodge bonuses with one exception. Pg344 "Bonuses to audo-dodge come from the character's P.P. attribute and any special bonus specifically for it (the bonus, skill or enhancement will say 'automatic dodge'). Unless it specifically says a character has an Automatic Dodge, he does NOT."

Nor do I see a reason that the approach would be different in the past as I've said that is how we interpreted it even in RMB-era. The only generic "dodge" bonuses that stack with Auto-Dodge bonuses are those from P.P., nothing else.

I don't agree. Someone with the auto-parry ability can still opt to use an action to do a parry if they wanted to.

This was quite necessary in N&SS since certain moves couldn't be defended against using auto-parry and required an action to defend against. You would also see separate listings ("Parry, Automatic Parry") under Defensive moves.

In Rifts, you lose your automatic parry if you do a paired WP technique. You are still able to do a standard dodge or parry though.

True you can elect to lose an auto-parry via Paired WP, but that is a specific case when you can elect to do so if certain requirements are met, not in general.

[Tor]

1E RT was like Rifts Main Book, they don't have a section in the terms in how to handle it, its more like a note when it appears. HU2E and RUE are different, they actually address it.

True, though differently. RUE should've used HU2's explicit text, was forbidding.

Based on the description of how dodges in general are portrayed, and that includes leap, from a movement standpoint they are the same. you dodge (leap, auto, normal) my moving out of the way in some fashion, I wouldn't consider the description from the Cyclone entry the end/all be/all of how it can be portrayed given Leap Dodge also appears in the Macross2 RPG line and describes it as "move or leap out of the way".

Huh... so the 'or move' means that a leap dodge doesn't necessarily have to include a 'leap'. Not the ideal naming scheme.

This talks about PA and Bots stacking attacks and bonuses. It doesn't go so far as to say that it stacks all abilities or maneuvers though.

"This same is done to determine the pilot's combat bonuses to strike, parry, dodge, etc."-pg39 RMB. Italic Emphasis in the book, Bold Emphasis mine. They don't list every single applicable bonus/manuever here, and they acknowledge that it goes farther with the "etc" bit. So bonuses to Roll, Pull Punch, Entangle, and Auto-Dodge still apply for the pilot of a PA or 'bot.

The section's bold title refers to "number of attacks" and "combat bonuses". The etcetera after dodge refers to other combat bonuses (like roll/pull/entangle as you say).

Although I agree it would apply to auto-dodge bonuses, I don't know if it is necessarily applicable to the auto-dodge maneuver. You may just have an added bonus to a move you are unable to do.

We clearly have PA that give non-auto-dodging people the ability to auto-dodge, I just don't know for sure if the reverse is true, if anyone's auto-dodge would carry over.

This applies to other moves too. If someone had an automatic body flip via Aikido or HtH Commando (oldCWC style not RUE style) would they be able to perform it while piloting a Devastator?

It's kind of a fuzzy area.

Automatic dodge and other manuevers being unavailable should be obvious or specifically addressed in the design.

I suppose. I think JU's note for the Icarus skill means that you don't get it in vehicles, but bots/PA could be exceptions since they (for the most part) are humanoid and mimic the human form.

When it comes to less humanoid robots (Mastadon? Crab? etc) I do wonder if your human reflexes would transfer so easily...

It's easier to understand how an auto-dodge would transfer when your legs are in your power armor's legs. When you're sitting in a seat and legs are fixed in place, particularly when considering a 'leap dodge' from Japan, the pilot is actuallym oving his arms or something to make the bot leap, so it's confusing to think of it transfering.

Easier to understand if you have one of those telemental helmet things since then your thought of leaping connects directly to the bot's limb instead of being translated through your hands first.

It is still not necessary because they have it already.

It's necessary because otherwise people might assume it applies to standard parries only.

Possible, but those aren't standard situations that should be covered I would think.

Kev could've had some good foresight.

Rifts Ultimate Edition IS CLEAR, you don't stack normal dodge bonuses with auto-dodge bonuses with one exception. Pg344 "Bonuses to audo-dodge come from the character's P.P. attribute and any special bonus specifically for it (the bonus, skill or enhancement will say 'automatic dodge'). Unless it specifically says a character has an Automatic Dodge, he does NOT."

LOL no, been over this before. There's a difference between "you can use A and B but not C" (HU) and "you can use A and B" (RUE)

The only generic "dodge" bonuses that stack with Auto-Dodge bonuses are those from P.P., nothing else.

in HU2, yes. In RUE: probably intended, but not written explicitly enough in the main book to be RAW. Probably clarified in other errata though, just not sure where.

True you can elect to lose an auto-parry via Paired WP, but that is a specific case when you can elect to do so if certain requirements are met, not in general.

Please show me where it says that if you gain an automatic parry that you are no longer able to elect to spend an action to do a parry.

[say652]

Slow motion control, its autododge ability lets you use your normal dodge plus additional bonus as your "autododge" in this example the character controls time.

[Tor]

Good find

"roll to dodge with an additional +2"

"automatic dodge at +2, as noted previously"

Even in HU2 with its epic exclusive wording, seems there are still flubs, with an autoD getting called just 'dodge'.

[say652]

My character has that major power.
But,
Sonic Speed on the other hand does in fact list dodge bonus and a separate AutoDodge bonus.

This makes me think dodging and autododging are very different and require more than fast reflexes.

My house rule.
Most Autododge occ's reaver, juicer, hand to hand: commando; akido etc.
Use the rmb rules.
Newer occs.
Like a crazie finally getting an autododge would follow rue rules.
Heroes unlimited characters.
Use the hu rules applying to said power and abilities that either turn a dodge into an autododge or give the additional ability to autododge.

As a gm making things work right for your game is your call and responsibility.

Hey in my games magic works like psionics, one spell/psi power per action.
Why??
Because I'm the GM and feel it makes mages not suck, also spells cost ppe anyway so its not like a character can keep up the artillery forever.

[Tor]

A separate bonus may just mean that autododge is better and you should always use it where possible, much like with auto-parries.

But when a situation removes your auto-dodge (like a Juicer Killer PA, maybe some other stuff, can't remember) then your bonuses aren't so good.

Funny thing about Crazies and auto-dodges if you look at the JK:

The main result of this system is that Juicers, Crazies, etc. are not able to dance around gunfire with impunity, but must take evasive actions - effectively losing their automatic dodge against the special attackso f this weapon!

I underlined "Crazies" in my book because it's so odd. This was way before RUE and yet it's written like the Crazies were already considered to be auto-dodgers even though I don't recall any variant of Crazy having been given the ability at that point.

Come to think fo it, the NG-JK power armor may be the first text to indicate that Juicers do not have to spend an attack to dodge. Since as pointed out, the RMB text about Juicers had automatic next to parry, which could be seen as only applying to that. I know Japan had some Juicers in it so I could be wrong, will go check to see if they mentioned it there.

[Kagashi]

A separate bonus may just mean that autododge is better and you should always use it where possible, much like with auto-parries.

But when a situation removes your auto-dodge (like a Juicer Killer PA, maybe some other stuff, can't remember) then your bonuses aren't so good.

Funny thing about Crazies and auto-dodges if you look at the JK:

The main result of this system is that Juicers, Crazies, etc. are not able to dance around gunfire with impunity, but must take evasive actions - effectively losing their automatic dodge against the special attackso f this weapon!

I underlined "Crazies" in my book because it's so odd. This was way before RUE and yet it's written like the Crazies were already considered to be auto-dodgers even though I don't recall any variant of Crazy having been given the ability at that point.

Come to think fo it, the NG-JK power armor may be the first text to indicate that Juicers do not have to spend an attack to dodge. Since as pointed out, the RMB text about Juicers had automatic next to parry, which could be seen as only applying to that. I know Japan had some Juicers in it so I could be wrong, will go check to see if they mentioned it there.

To be fair, KS said in his RUE write up of Crazies that he had always intended them to be auto dodgers, but it failed to make it to the final printing of RMB for some reason. Wired Gunslingers, even the RMB versions, had auto dodge. Now the Juicer Killer text just happens to match the stats.

[ShadowLogan]

Huh... so the 'or move' means that a leap dodge doesn't necessarily have to include a 'leap'. Not the ideal naming scheme.

No it doesn't have to include leap, because you can simply hop and skip to move out of the way (neither of which really qualify as a "leap", but they are used in relation to successful implementation of the maneuver).

Bad naming schemes are part of Palladium given they use "automatic" even though one still has to roll the dice when they have automatic dodge/parry. You also have "melee" used to refer to a block of time, but it also applies in other areas.

It's necessary because otherwise people might assume it applies to standard parries only.

No it isn't. The standard Parry, ie parry option everyone is likely to have, is the automatic parry not a normal parry that consumes an attack/action. And the basic Juicer class already has it due to HTH: Training.

n HU2, yes. In RUE: probably intended, but not written explicitly enough in the main book to be RAW. Probably clarified in other errata though, just not sure where.

No, Rifts Ultimate Edition (RUE) is very clear.

You have the passage on pg344 in the combat terms section. It is also on pg79 (Juicer OCC) and pg55 (Crazy OCC) as both state: "Normal dodge bonuses do not apply, but P.P. Bonuses do." when discussing the auto-dodge manuever in both OCCs.

Please show me where it says that if you gain an automatic parry that you are no longer able to elect to spend an action to do a parry.

What would be the benifit to having to spend an action to parry if you can do the automaic version? This is without WP: Paired being in play/available.

Automatic Dodge, Leap Dodge, and regular/normal dodge are all considered separate manuevers from each other.

"roll to dodge with an additional +2"

"automatic dodge at +2, as noted previously"

Even in HU2 with its epic exclusive wording, seems there are still flubs, with an autoD getting called just 'dodge'.

"roll to dodge" in relation to describing auto-dodge just means mechanically you roll a d20 like a dodge and you add applicable auto-dodge bonuses as spelled out earlier in the book. It does not mean you roll to dodge as normal and add in both AD and N/R-D bonuses.

[Q99]

i'd assume that with aircraft it would depend on the aircraft. so like, smaller aircraft (fighters fpr example) you can autododge and dodge in, but medium aircraft (small bombers, smaller transports, etc) you couldn't autododge in but can regualr dodge, and really big aircraft like big bombers or cargoplanes can't dodge at all, unless you have a special ability like the pheaton juicer, or write up for the vehicle says otherwise.

Now I'm picturing a Phaeton going to the Three Galaxies, signing up with the FWC, and becoming pilot of the Hopebringer to give it autododge...

[Tor]

To be fair, KS said in his RUE write up of Crazies that he had always intended them to be auto dodgers, but it failed to make it to the final printing of RMB for some reason. Wired Gunslingers, even the RMB versions, had auto dodge. Now the Juicer Killer text just happens to match the stats.

Nice find, didn't notice that about the Wired Slinger. Their statement about auto-dodge not using an action is actually far clearer and more explicit than the vague statements that Juicers got ("automatic parry or dodge")

If he always intended it though... even if he forgot to include it in RMB you'd think it would've shown up in RCB or Mindwerks or whatev.

The TW-Crazy (SA2p132) doesn't seem to have an auto-dodge. Since RUE only updated the basic version, does that mean they still lack it? Would be a nice balancing factor since they're MDC tanks. Dunno if he shadow-updated it in later reprints (or if he's avoiding reprinting Carrella books)

The standard Parry, ie parry option everyone is likely to have, is the automatic parry not a normal parry that consumes an attack/action. And the basic Juicer class already has it due to HTH: Training.

Just because the majority of (power-gaming) players will play an OCC that starts with a HtH or opt to buy one for those that do not should not mean we should ignore the reality that this exists. When you look at local militias and stuff they often only have HtH Basic, implying a lot of the population lacks a HtH skill.

Already having an ability does not mean it is pointless to have it duplicated. It's a back-up. It is possible to lose a skill-based auto-dodge by losing the skill, if their HtH is mind-wiped them they can still auto-parry via theri drug reflexes, it's nice.

Rifts Ultimate Edition (RUE) is very clear. You have the passage on pg344 in the combat terms section.

Which is not explicit like HU2.

It is also on pg79 (Juicer OCC) and pg55 (Crazy OCC) as both state: "Normal dodge bonuses do not apply, but P.P. Bonuses do." when discussing the auto-dodge manuever in both OCCs.

This has not come up in previous discussions I have had on the topic, good find, I will defer that normal dodge bonuses do not apply to members of these OCCs or any other classes which have such statements to apply HU2-like restricitons.

What would be the benifit to having to spend an action to parry if you can do the automaic version? This is without WP: Paired being in play/available.

In case something nullifies the ability to do an automatic parry.

Back when auto-dodges for juicers got full dodge bonuses there wasn't much reason to do an auto-dodge either, except when a Juicer-Killer is messing with you.

Automatic Dodge, Leap Dodge, and regular/normal dodge are all considered separate manuevers from each other.

So are Parry, Automatic Parry and Circular Parry.

"roll to dodge" in relation to describing auto-dodge just means mechanically you roll a d20 like a dodge

"Roll to dodge" is not "roll like a dodge". Auto-dodges are dodges, it's in the name.

Though I defer that RUE was explicit about no non-PP "dodge" bonuses applying to Crazy/Juicer auto-dodging. Pays to be a Commando.

It does not mean you roll to dodge as normal and add in both AD and N/R-D bonuses.

Dodging as normal uses all dodge bonuses. Even without a "dodge as normal" all variant dodges (as with varied strikes using 'strike') use dodge bonuses unless we are explicitly told otherwise, like with HU2/RUEcrazy/RUEjuicer.

[ShadowLogan]

Just because the majority of (power-gaming) players will play an OCC that starts with a HtH or opt to buy one for those that do not should not mean we should ignore the reality that this exists. When you look at local militias and stuff they often only have HtH Basic, implying a lot of the population lacks a HtH skill.

Already having an ability does not mean it is pointless to have it duplicated. It's a back-up. It is possible to lose a skill-based auto-dodge by losing the skill, if their HtH is mind-wiped them they can still auto-parry via theri drug reflexes, it's nice.

It is pointless to duplicate it. If the character class has autoparry from HTH training by default, then that is standard for that character. The cause for the autoparry status may have nothing to do with the Juicer's drugs.

Which is not explicit like HU2.

RUE is just as explicit as HU2E. The cold hard meaning of the statements on pg55 and pg79 can be found within pg344 statement on the matter.

In case something nullifies the ability to do an automatic parry.

Back when auto-dodges for juicers got full dodge bonuses there wasn't much reason to do an auto-dodge either, except when a Juicer-Killer is messing with you.

Outside of WP: Paired, if something prevents you from automatic parry, it would also prevent you from a regular/normal parry.

Juicers never got their full dodge bonuses for auto-dodge. And they would have reason to do a full dodge if they wanted a better chance at not taking damage (or any more damage). Auto Dodge bonuses tend to amount to lower values than normal Dodge bonuses when computed properly, especially when the character takes additional skills that improve normal dodge bonus. Exception might exist at specific levels (I have not computer it for every level between 1-15 and with all the applicable skills).

"Roll to dodge" is not "roll like a dodge". Auto-dodges are dodges, it's in the name.

Though I defer that RUE was explicit about no non-PP "dodge" bonuses applying to Crazy/Juicer auto-dodging. Pays to be a Commando.

HTH: Commando does not get a pass either, please refer to pg344. I even quoted the relevant text before "(the bonus, skill or enhancement will say 'automatic dodge')" is the only way a dodge bonus applies outside of the P.P. Attribute's Dodge Bonus, it must stay "automatic dodge", which is no different than the Juicer/Crazy.

"Roll to dodge" does mean "roll like a dodge" based on context since the only applicable dodge bonuses outside of P.P. that apply must state they are "automatic dodge" to count when rolling for auto-dodge.

[Tor]

It is pointless to duplicate it.

I already explained the value in the duplicated ability.

Do you think that if, as a Priest OCC, you know how to cast Fire Bolt, that it is pointless to learn how to cast Fire Bolt as a Wizard OCC?

The cause for the autoparry status may have nothing to do with the Juicer's drugs.

The impression given is that the OCC abilities they get are from the drugs.

RUE is just as explicit as HU2E. The cold hard meaning of the statements on pg55 and pg79 can be found within pg344 statement on the matter.

Actually no, 55/79 are analagous to HU rules, page 344 does not explicitly say not to use dodge bonuses. RUE is only explicit for the Crazy/Juicer. Other auto-dodges (Cyber-Knights, Commandos) have no text saying not to use +dodge from other stuff, whether it's hand to hand or power armor or advanced hearing or sixth sense.

Outside of WP: Paired, if something prevents you from automatic parry, it would also prevent you from a regular/normal parry.

You could also argue that outside of Juicer-Killer power armor, if something prevented you from automatic dodge, it would also prevent you from a regular dodge.

Automatic-exclusive forbiddences aren't that common, but they exist.

Juicers never got their full dodge bonuses for auto-dodge.

Yes they did, auto-dodges got dodge bonuses until they didn't.

they would have reason to do a full dodge if they wanted a better chance at not taking damage (or any more damage).

That reason did not previously exist.

Auto Dodge bonuses tend to amount to lower values than normal Dodge bonuses when computed properly

For the basic Crazy and basic Juicer OCC in RUE, yes.

HTH: Commando does not get a pass either, please refer to pg344.

I have read page 344. It doesn't have what you think it does.

I even quoted the relevant text before "(the bonus, skill or enhancement will say 'automatic dodge')" is the only way a dodge bonus applies outside of the P.P. Attribute's Dodge Bonus, it must stay "automatic dodge", which is no different than the Juicer/Crazy.

The error here is you have inserted your own false paraphrasing to add ideas not stated in the text.

Here is what the automatic dodge glossary on 344 says:

Bonuses to auto-dodge come from
the character's PP attribute
and any special bonus specifically for it.

It says nothing like "the bonus WILL say" or "the ONLY way" or "it MUST say". Those are your alterations. They reflect the restrictions imposed on the Crazy/Juicer OCCs, similar to HU, but those are OCC-specific restrictions, they are not presented in the glossary as universal restrictions.

If I said "bonuses to strike come from PP and any special bonus specifically for it" that would not mean that those would be the only way to get a bonus to strike. If I had an ability that added "+1 to all combat rolls" that would not be from PP and it would not be explicitly to strike, however it would add a strike bonus since striking is a combat roll.

[quote=ShadowLogan"]the only applicable dodge bonuses outside of P.P. that apply must state they are "automatic dodge" to count when rolling for auto-dodge.[/quote]We can at least agree this is the case for RUE's rewrite of the basic Crazy and Juicer and any imports from HU. Where we differ is that I do not see this as applying to all auto-dodging in Rifts because Rifts' glossary has no forbiddences.

[Kagashi]

To be fair, KS said in his RUE write up of Crazies that he had always intended them to be auto dodgers, but it failed to make it to the final printing of RMB for some reason. Wired Gunslingers, even the RMB versions, had auto dodge. Now the Juicer Killer text just happens to match the stats.

Nice find, didn't notice that about the Wired Slinger. Their statement about auto-dodge not using an action is actually far clearer and more explicit than the vague statements that Juicers got ("automatic parry or dodge")

If he always intended it though... even if he forgot to include it in RMB you'd think it would've shown up in RCB or Mindwerks or whatev.

The TW-Crazy (SA2p132) doesn't seem to have an auto-dodge. Since RUE only updated the basic version, does that mean they still lack it? Would be a nice balancing factor since they're MDC tanks. Dunno if he shadow-updated it in later reprints (or if he's avoiding reprinting Carrella books)

Its not the first time KS claimed to have "intended" something than suddenly updated a book. He did it with the +2 for living rule too. In RMB, there was no +2 for living, but in RCB Unrevised, he added it in, buried under some nondescript text, confusing people for years. Not until the GMG was it much more obvious. Regardless, if a person were to only have the MAIN book (RMB) they still wouldnt know what everybody else was talking about. Hence a reason why RUE came out. Same story for the Headhunter being a partial borg and not a basic Merc template (which also spawned the basic merc OCCs and MOSs).

As far as I know, SA2 has not received a Shadow Update. Until it does, the TW Crazy is simply not as agile as the standard crazy. Additionally, New West has not received a Shadow Update either, so under RUE rules, the Wired Gunslinger simply gets the autododge ability with no additional bonuses per level like the standard Crazy does (PP Bonuses would apply though, which he prolly would have). I suspect if/when SA2 and New West get Shadow Updates, both OCCs will get the RUE autododge treatment as autododge bonuses seem to be of of the main focuses of the Shadow Updates. They did it for every Juicer in JU and so far, every dbee whom had autododge has also received it (Quickflex Aliens in both CWC SU and DBees of NA for example).

[ShadowLogan]

I already explained the value in the duplicated ability.

There is no value in duplicating the ability at this point.

The impression given is that the OCC abilities they get are from the drugs.

The impression is that it is a combination of the drugs and training since they retain the basic auto-parry option from HTH skill when they detox and change classes. All the drugs seem to be responsible for is allowing them to parry attacks that aren't ordinarily allowed to be parried (ie outside their line of vision).

You could also argue that outside of Juicer-Killer power armor, if something prevented you from automatic dodge, it would also prevent you from a regular dodge.

Yes you could. Simultaneous attack the JKPA is capable of can result in the loss of parry and dodge for the attacker (AI, but it can't take defensive action anyway) and defender (ie our Juicer), that is how the combat computer is supposed to work by launching simultaneous attacks IIRC.

Yes they did, auto-dodges got dodge bonuses until they didn't.

No they did not. Automatic Dodge is a separate manuver from a normal dodge, so the bonuses don't stack. No where in RMB does is state to add normal dodge bonuses in to auto-dodge bonuses or even treat them as extensions of the same maneuver (like Parry/Auto-Parry).

For the basic Crazy and basic Juicer OCC in RUE, yes.

Even before RUE it is true. They only get the PP bonus to auto-dodge.

It says nothing like "the bonus WILL say" or "the ONLY way" or "it MUST say". Those are your alterations. They reflect the restrictions imposed on the Crazy/Juicer OCCs, similar to HU, but those are OCC-specific restrictions, they are not presented in the glossary as universal restrictions.

Actually it does state what I am saying/paraphrasing.

It does state "and any special bonus specifically for it (the bonus skill or enhancement will say 'automatic dodge')." It says the bonus will be specifically for it as indicated inside the parenthesis. So it is just PP Dodge Bonus + specifically designated Automatic Dodge Bonuses even on pg344. Pg344 is a bit more "wordy" than other examples we can cite, but it still means the same thing.

Its not the first time KS claimed to have "intended" something than suddenly updated a book. He did it with the +2 for living rule too. In RMB, there was no +2 for living, but in RCB Unrevised, he added it in, buried under some nondescript text, confusing people for years.

Actually +2 for living rule can be found in Rifts Main Book (at least by the time the hardcover version I have with 1995 printing) on pg37 under "Psychic Combat", "Attacks Per melee" headers in larger fonts, just below that a paragraph starts in bold with "A reminder:".

[Tor]

There is no value in duplicating the ability at this point.

Even in RMB a GM could conceive that someone could be juiced and not trained in the OCC skills, just like you could be turned into a borg or a tattoo man without being trained in those classes. Similar case if Gene-Splicers create a juicer-equivalent genetically.

The impression is that it is a combination of the drugs and training

No, it's called "Juicer Powers" and put under "super reflexes".

since they retain the basic auto-parry option from HTH skill when they detox and change classes. All the drugs seem to be responsible for is allowing them to parry attacks that aren't ordinarily allowed to be parried (ie outside their line of vision).

That would be more easily described as "gets an automatic dodge and it and their automatic parry work on attacks from behind". The phrase "gets an automatic parry" rather than "can automatically parry" is phased like introducing something.

that is how the combat computer is supposed to work by launching simultaneous attacks IIRC.

That's a bit grey. I'd say a gun's computer could SA if the gun itself was being targetted, but maybe not if the juicer was trying to shoot the PA in the foot.

auto-dodges got dodge bonuses until they didn't.

No they did not. Automatic Dodge is a separate manuver from a normal dodge, so the bonuses don't stack.

Automatic body flip and body flip are separate maneuvers, as are defense-disarm and offense-disarm. Bonuses still stack when the language lines up. Also "got" is past tense. I acknowledge that RUEcrazies/juicers/HU2 don't stack nonPP 'dodge' bonuses on auto-dodge.

No where in RMB does is state to add normal dodge bonuses in to auto-dodge bonuses

Where in RMB does it say you can add strike bonuses for leap kicks? None of this is needed, dodging is a class, the bonus applies to a class of maneuvers just as striking does.

or even treat them as extensions of the same maneuver (like Parry/Auto-Parry).

It was treated exactly like this.

For the basic Crazy and basic Juicer OCC in RUE, yes.

Even before RUE it is true. They only get the PP bonus to auto-dodge.

LOL no. Even if you ascribe to a "dodge" bonuses not counting policy, why would PP bonuses apply until RUE explicitly said they did?

The complete lack of auto-dodge bonuses on Juicer NPCs is too telling.

it does state what I am saying/paraphrasing.

Simply wrong, the terms I bolded in your paraphrase don't match with anything.

It does state "and any special bonus specifically for it (the bonus skill or enhancement will say 'automatic dodge')." It says the bonus will be specifically for it as indicated inside the parenthesis.

The 'will' is explaining what 'bonus specifically for it' means.

Once you understand that, you then, informed, read the sentence minus the parenthesis.

There is still no 'only' limiting you to the PP dodge and the special specific bonuses.

So it is just PP Dodge Bonus + specifically designated Automatic Dodge Bonuses even on pg344. Pg344 is a bit more "wordy" than other examples we can cite, but it still means the same thing.

It doesn't mean the same thing, reading HU2 you can see the clear language diff, like with the Crazies/Juicers.

You added 'just'. 'Just' or 'only' are not on RUEp344.

+2 for living rule can be found in Rifts Main Book (at least by the time the hardcover version I have with 1995 printing) on pg37 under "Psychic Combat", "Attacks Per melee" headers in larger fonts, just below that a paragraph starts in bold with "A reminder:".

The problem with that is it's not a "plus 2" but it's actually a "starts with two".

It mentions attacks can be gained from HtH but those presented as a gain are the ones from later levels. The 'Two attacks per melee' in Basic (or 'Two attacks per melee to start' in expert/MA) are also presented as a static non-addy amount.

The outlier is HtH Assassin. It's parenthesized 1 attack per melee could be viewed as a penalty to the normal 2 per living rather than something totalling 3.

NPCs are mentioned as 'only two plus hand to hand'. This is the same as typical PCs. What throws us for a loop and makes us think there's some difference is the use of the word 'only'. We can see from the NPC examples at the back of RMB that it's simply 2, not 2+2.

[ShadowLogan]

Even in RMB a GM could conceive that someone could be juiced and not trained in the OCC skills, just like you could be turned into a borg or a tattoo man without being trained in those classes. Similar case if Gene-Splicers create a juicer-equivalent genetically.

In the case of a borg there is an acclimation period to the new body.

Sure someone can get magic tattoos and not know how to use them. But they still can't use them, so at best they get the extra PPE and MDC (or SDC as the case maybe in terms of numbers).

So someone can become juiced, but still not get all the perks due to a lack of training.

No, it's called "Juicer Powers" and put under "super reflexes".

It doesn't mean that some of those powers can not depend on skills.

That would be more easily described as "gets an automatic dodge and it and their automatic parry work on attacks from behind". The phrase "gets an automatic parry" rather than "can automatically parry" is phased like introducing something.

Clear wording is not a Palladium strength. Yes it is introducing the concept that the character can parry/dodge attacks from behind, but the ability to parry/dodge itself is not linked to the drugs.

Automatic body flip and body flip are separate maneuvers, as are defense-disarm and offense-disarm. Bonuses still stack when the language lines up. Also "got" is past tense. I acknowledge that RUEcrazies/juicers/HU2 don't stack nonPP 'dodge' bonuses on auto-dodge.

Those manuevers aren't listed as receiving bonuses to perform per RMB. Later books and their HTH styles maybe different, but going off RMB they don't count.

We also know that on the surface applicable bonuses do not always stack and its in the rules. For ex. You don't add HTH/PP strike bonus to Modern WP when you roll to strike. So you can have a generic bonus to something, but it doesn't always stack.

Even if you ascribe to a "dodge" bonuses not counting policy, why would PP bonuses apply until RUE explicitly said they did?

PP Bonus does seem appropriate as already stated.

The 'will' is explaining what 'bonus specifically for it' means

Yes it will specifically say it will state automatic dodge in order to apply.

The problem with that is it's not a "plus 2" but it's actually a "starts with two".

It mentions attacks can be gained from HtH but those presented as a gain are the ones from later levels. The 'Two attacks per melee' in Basic (or 'Two attacks per melee to start' in expert/MA) are also presented as a static non-addy amount.

The outlier is HtH Assassin. It's parenthesized 1 attack per melee could be viewed as a penalty to the normal 2 per living rather than something totalling 3.

NPCs are mentioned as 'only two plus hand to hand'. This is the same as typical PCs. What throws us for a loop and makes us think there's some difference is the use of the word 'only'. We can see from the NPC examples at the back of RMB that it's simply 2, not 2+2.

I'm just saying that +2 for living is present in the RMB copy I have. That it doesn't get added in could mean it may not be included elsewhere so that one does not add it in again. Though it would be easier to simply put the 2 attacks for living in those places by default (as done in RUE) instead of wasting 7-lines of text in one column to mention it.

[Tor]

It doesn't mean that some of those powers can not depend on skills.

The 'automatic parry and dodge' is presented collectively, so if it were talking about abilities that already existed (an automatic parry, and a normal dodge) it might be better to say 'defend against'. Although I guess that would include stuff like entangle, so I guess that means a juicer can't entangle a surprise attack since it's too complicated.

Those manuevers aren't listed as receiving bonuses to perform per RMB

They've had specific bonuses in other books. Body flip didn't even get a glossary entry in RMB, the note of damage and penalties were included in the HtH progressions themselves for some reason, even though they worked the same for basic/expert/MA, each added a line to the length so space could've been saved by explaining it once in a glossary (I think it could've fit on a single line, the HtH tables had whitespace widening the column)

We also know that on the surface applicable bonuses do not always stack and its in the rules. For ex. You don't add HTH/PP strike bonus to Modern WP when you roll to strike. So you can have a generic bonus to something, but it doesn't always stack.

They stack unless otherwise indicated. We are explicitly told not to add HTH/PP to modern WP striking, that is why it doesn't add. Like how in HU2 we are explicitly told not to add non-auto&non-PP dodge bonuses to auto-dodging.

PP Bonus does seem appropriate as already stated.

Seeming appropriate doesn't mean they were added. If you take the stance that we must be explicitly told to use them, then they didn't count until RUE said to count them.

Yes it will specifically say it will state automatic dodge in order to apply.

As a bonus specifically to auto-dodges.

Not (along with PP) as the only bonuses auto-dodge can use. Only Crazies/Heroes2/Juicers say this.

I'm just saying that +2 for living is present in the RMB copy I have.[/quote]
I have the same text you refer to in the Psychic Combat in my 1997 printing as you do in your 1995 printing.

It doesn't actually say "plus 2 for living".

It says you start with 2 and can gain additional ones from hand to hand.

The 2 attacks listed at level 1 for basic/expert/MA are not presented as additions. I see them as reminding you as the 2 all PCs start with.

The 1 attack Assasin starts with, rather than being a +1 to the 2 for living, is actually perceivable as a minus 1, reducing you below the 2 you normally start with.

[ShadowLogan]

The 'automatic parry and dodge' is presented collectively, so if it were talking about abilities that already existed (an automatic parry, and a normal dodge) it might be better to say 'defend against'. Although I guess that would include stuff like entangle, so I guess that means a juicer can't entangle a surprise attack since it's too complicated.

My take from that passage is that the ability is to perceive things normally outside of one's perception (line of vision). Per the rules you can not defend (parry/dodge) an attack you can not perceive (they say line of vision, but you can defend while blind at penalty per the rules given Blinding Flash spell and Blind Bio-Manip Psi Power for ex), so if you can perceive something occurring outside of the normal perception range, then you can dodge/parry accordingly. So the drugs are not directly giving one the ability to parry/dodge the attack, they are directly giving one the ability to perceive the attack so they can take action.

They've had specific bonuses in other books. Body flip didn't even get a glossary entry in RMB, the note of damage and penalties were included in the HtH progressions themselves for some reason, even though they worked the same for basic/expert/MA, each added a line to the length so space could've been saved by explaining it once in a glossary (I think it could've fit on a single line, the HtH tables had whitespace widening the column)

I know they get specific bonuses in later books, but if we are using RMB only for interpretation for something in RMB, then those later books don't help given later books also establish it is a separate manuever.

They stack unless otherwise indicated. We are explicitly told not to add HTH/PP to modern WP striking, that is why it doesn't add. Like how in HU2 we are explicitly told not to add non-auto&non-PP dodge bonuses to auto-dodging.

Or it is obvious that they are not the same thing, which is the case here. When automatic dodge appears to be described in RMB-era books outside the mainbook (mentioned in WB2, WB6, WB7, WB8, WB11 just for starters) they all describe it as "works just like a parry; does not use up a melee action it is so quick". That makes it seem like the movements involved here have more to do with "parry" type movements than "dodge" type movements.

Seeming appropriate doesn't mean they were added. If you take the stance that we must be explicitly told to use them, then they didn't count until RUE said to count them.

True, that might be seen as a house rule, but PP bonus can be seen as applying to various HTH related things.

Not (along with PP) as the only bonuses auto-dodge can use. Only Crazies/Heroes2/Juicers say this.

No, along with PP bonuses the only applicable automatic dodge bonuses one can use must specifically be for automatic dodge. It doesn't just apply to the Crazy/Juicer/HU2, pg344 is very clear on that, along with PP the only bonuses applicable to automatic dodge will say they are for automatic dodge.

It says you start with 2 and can gain additional ones from hand to hand.

Correct AND Incorrect at the same time.

They cover both Player Characters and (typical) Non-Player Characters. That is correct for PCs, but incorrect for NPCs where they state "two "[...] plus hand to hand combat and/or boxing skill additions" under the NPC section. Neither considers class bonuses like CyberKnight, Juicer, Crazy (and 'borgs). Even for PCs "additional" can mean you are supposed to add them together as done under the (typical) NPC. This seems likely since HTH: A & HTH: N conflict here.

[Tor]

PP bonus can be seen as applying to various HTH related things

Yet it only explicitly gives a strike/parry/dodge bonus. Not a "+ to all combat actions" as some other things do.

the only applicable automatic dodge bonuses one can use

Phrasing you are porting to p344 from the Crazies/Juicers/HU2 as if it were there, but it isn't.

Correct AND Incorrect at the same time.

It can't be both. It is correct.

They cover both Player Characters and (typical) Non-Player Characters. That is correct for PCs, but incorrect for NPCs where they state "two "[...] plus hand to hand combat and/or boxing skill additions" under the NPC section.

Far as I can tell the phrasing is the same in both cases.

Neither considers class bonuses like CyberKnight, Juicer, Crazy (and 'borgs).

Or for being a dragon, or Power Armor Combat or Robot Combat!

They do not need to consider them. The list does not say "this is the only way you can gain melee attacks" so it does not need to list every possible source of bonus attacks.

This is exactly the same as auto-dodging. Auto-dodging mentioning PP and auto-dodge bonuses is like the psychic combat section only mentioning HTH and Boxing. Neglecting other examples of bonuses does not exclude them from being able to be added.