Attune Object

[Kagashi]

Thought about it a bit more, and here is an example which might clear things up.

Every non-living object in the megaverse has a B.E. Value of "nothing". Every living object in the megaverse has a B.E. value of the name of the living object. Therefore, I have a B.E. value of "Kagashi". If an object was once living, but was killed or died and made into another object (like a wooden desk), it now has a value of "nothing". All this spell is doing its taking a value of "nothing" and assigning it a value equal to somebody with a named value.

So RiftJunkie (B.E. value = "RiftJunkie") could buy and pay for a computer (B.E. value = "nothing"). I come in to his house and acquire the computer and cast Attune Object on it, using my B.E. value ("Kagashi") as the value to attune the computer to my own B.E. value. Now the computer, still sitting in RiftJunkie's house, has a B.E. value of "Kagashi" and cannot be used by RiftJunkie (or anybody else), despite the fact he bought it, and its still sitting in his own house.

[Blue_Lion]

OK fist off what is B.E. and second I do not think the intent of the spell was to make it so the person that should be the owner can't use it. You are basically like some one else claiming that casting the spell makes you the owner.
So if you had no claim as the owner of rift junkies computer the spell should not attune it to you.

[Kagashi]

OK fist off what is B.E. and second I do not think the intent of the spell was to make it so the person that should be the owner can't use it. You are basically like some one else claiming that casting the spell makes you the owner.
So if you had no claim as the owner of rift junkies computer the spell should not attune it to you.

Read Attune Object to Owner (page 245 BoM) and all your speculations and questions will be answered. The spell description has nothing to do with ownership, and everything with matching B.E. Emphasis on the third sentence.

Edit: The word "owner" is really "target living person" of the spell. The spell has no care if somebody claims actual ownership. The spell would work exactly the same if it were named "Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious".

[Blue_Lion]

OK fist off what is B.E. and second I do not think the intent of the spell was to make it so the person that should be the owner can't use it. You are basically like some one else claiming that casting the spell makes you the owner.
So if you had no claim as the owner of rift junkies computer the spell should not attune it to you.

Read Attune Object to Owner (page 245 BoM) and all your speculations and questions will be answered. The spell description has nothing to do with ownership, and everything with matching B.E. Emphasis on the third sentence.

Edit: The word "owner" is really "target living person" of the spell. The spell has no care if somebody claims actual ownership. The spell would work exactly the same if it were named "Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious".

Ok so it is bio energy.

I disagree that the word owner is not really living target. That is more rules false case of rules lawyering. It is clear that the spell is referring to a person who is considered the owner and the spell is anti-theft tampering spell, for an objects owner. Replacing a targeting word with a broader target is not using the spell as intended but trying to circumnavigate the meaning of the spell.

Reading the spell it is clear that it is an about preventing theft or use by others the Bio energy is just an explanation to justify this not the focus of the spell.

[Killer Cyborg]

The spell description has everything to do with ownership.
It specifies repeatedly that the spell attunes the object to the owner.

[Tor]

The whole discussion is more like "ownership according to whose laws" since ownership is an artificial concept created by beings who have different ideas anout what constitutes it and how it transfers or is created.

[eliakon]

The whole discussion is more like "ownership according to whose laws" since ownership is an artificial concept created by beings who have different ideas anout what constitutes it and how it transfers or is created.

Every concept is artificial....but I would say that this isn't Philosophy the RPG......

[The Beast]

The whole discussion is more like "ownership according to whose laws" since ownership is an artificial concept created by beings who have different ideas anout what constitutes it and how it transfers or is created.

Every concept is artificial....but I would say that this isn't Philosophy the RPG......

I have a friend that would argue otherwise...

[Tor]

Many of the artificial concepts we are expected to interact with in the game are at least understood enough to do so though. "Range-Touch" is way easier to understand than ownership, even if Touch too can be deconstructed.

[Killer Cyborg]

Many of the artificial concepts we are expected to interact with in the game are at least understood enough to do so though. "Range-Touch" is way easier to understand than ownership, even if Touch too can be deconstructed.

And "True Name"...?

[Tor]

That would be the first non-pronoun thing you are referred to as during birth, I guess?

Complications would arise if some Crazy ran through a maternity wing of a hospital going "I name you Karl!" to all the newborns though...

You could have a 'by a biological parent' bit, but then you'd have situations like a mother dying in childbirth before naming the kid, and the kid not having a true name...

You could allow a surrogate parent the authority to bestow a True Name but in that case you would then need to come up with criteria to establish who is a parent, like if you have to legally adopt (by whose laws? much like ownership) or care for them and stuff.

I'd say maybe a similar 'attunement' kind of rule with parent/kid. You need to be in close proximity to the kid for 6 months. This would allow mothers who carry the kid (or present fathers) this. Mystically though if a DNA parent was not in contact (perhaps a surrogate, or tube growth like with Dog Boys) they would need to raise the newborn for a while to establish a strong enough link to name them, I guess?

Mysteries of Magic came up with some rules about changing true names so it's not fixed, but I think there's an aspect of consent and ceremony there which would be lacking the first time round.

[Blue_Lion]

That would be the first non-pronoun thing you are referred to as during birth, I guess?

Complications would arise if some Crazy ran through a maternity wing of a hospital going "I name you Karl!" to all the newborns though...

You could have a 'by a biological parent' bit, but then you'd have situations like a mother dying in childbirth before naming the kid, and the kid not having a true name...

You could allow a surrogate parent the authority to bestow a True Name but in that case you would then need to come up with criteria to establish who is a parent, like if you have to legally adopt (by whose laws? much like ownership) or care for them and stuff.

I'd say maybe a similar 'attunement' kind of rule with parent/kid. You need to be in close proximity to the kid for 6 months. This would allow mothers who carry the kid (or present fathers) this. Mystically though if a DNA parent was not in contact (perhaps a surrogate, or tube growth like with Dog Boys) they would need to raise the newborn for a while to establish a strong enough link to name them, I guess?

Mysteries of Magic came up with some rules about changing true names so it's not fixed, but I think there's an aspect of consent and ceremony there which would be lacking the first time round.

I see loan star making 100s of clones and dog boys and giving them the emperors name to mess up true name spells.

[Tor]

What spells are we talking about? Thoth's rune strike deific power comes to mind, but I think he still needs to picture you in addition to knowing your true name, so it would still pick the proper person who has that name.

*just thinks that Karl has a quintet of Psi-Nullifier mistresses within 10ft of him 24/7 to nullify all unlimited-range incoming magic*

[Blue_Lion]

What spells are we talking about? Thoth's rune strike deific power comes to mind, but I think he still needs to picture you in addition to knowing your true name, so it would still pick the proper person who has that name.

*just thinks that Karl has a quintet of Psi-Nullifier mistresses within 10ft of him 24/7 to nullify all unlimited-range incoming magic*

Death curse comes to mind.
So you picture and think of the name, so a clone of the emperor given his name as a true name would meet this. It is also possible to use true names as part of summoning circles if I recall right from PF.

[Tor]

Death Curse (FoMp135) doesn't mention needing to know the person's name. Karl Prosek's real name might actually be Tromm but I don't think you'd need to know this info to curse him.

I'm not even sure you'd need to know what the person looks like, no mention of knowing appearance as a requirement or blind people being able to do it.

I don't know if you could use something vague like "the person responsible for killing me" though, because it mentions you can accidentally curse innocent people with this, and such an accident would be impossible if you could word it subjectively like this.

Something like 'the emperor of the Coalition States' should bypass clones or false names though.

Kind of wonder if Karl Prosek (or perhaps Joseph if Karl dies from such a curse, or maybe Joseph's son since Joseph is already publicly exposed) might pull a page out of L Lawliet's book (Death Note) and begin using a stand-in for video announcements so people think he has a different name and face.

[Killer Cyborg]

That would be the first non-pronoun thing you are referred to as during birth, I guess?

Can't say, it's never really defined in game terms, and names have no intrinsic value in nature.
Kind of like "ownership."

In literature, FYI, such as Ursula LeGuine's books, a True Name is a verbal intonation of the person/being/object's nature, akin to a magic word that is keyed just to them.
Most people don't even know their own True Names, much less anybody else's.

[Tor]

I get the sense that's not the case though since I have seen 'True Name' used for some gods or demons which closely resembles the names they go by.

[Killer Cyborg]

I get the sense that's not the case though since I have seen 'True Name' used for some gods or demons which closely resembles the names they go by.

Yup.
I don't think that's what Palladium was going for, although it probably should have been.
Either way, names as a rule are just a concept, like ownership, which has no inherent value.

[Prysus]

I get the sense that's not the case though since I have seen 'True Name' used for some gods or demons which closely resembles the names they go by.

Yup.
I don't think that's what Palladium was going for, although it probably should have been.
Either way, names as a rule are just a concept, like ownership, which has no inherent value.

Greetings and Salutations. True Names have about 2 pages dedicated to it in Mysteries of Magic Book One: Heart of Magic. This is a PF book and line-ists won't like it, while Megaversal-ists might appreciate it more.

In short, it's at least part spiritual and how you identify yourself. For example, you can call yourself "Moonbeam" all you want, but when someone proper names you and you go all: "That's not my name, man." That recognition shows that you really DO still recognize it as your name, and you're attempting to deny it (but that doesn't change that it is, and you recognize it as such). That name has power over you. Another example. Kid goes by the name Chuck, and everyone calls him Chuck. But mother comes out on the porch and calls out: "Charles William Everitt!" The kid freezes with that "Uh oh ..." look on his face. Recognition, and shows the name has power over the kid.

Now in the PF setting, the book mentions how there tends to be ceremonies, etc. attached to the naming process. In more modern day (or Rifts), it's probably the one on your birth certificate (legal name that you recognize as your true name). With that said, the book does also discuss possible ways to change those true names (such as rituals, spiritual changes, etc.). So, in theory, if you suffer amnesia (or a total Mind Wipe), and you develop into a new person, you'd probably have a new true name as well.

For more details, check out Mysteries of Magic. This unfortunately does not help with BE. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Killer Cyborg]

I get the sense that's not the case though since I have seen 'True Name' used for some gods or demons which closely resembles the names they go by.

Yup.
I don't think that's what Palladium was going for, although it probably should have been.
Either way, names as a rule are just a concept, like ownership, which has no inherent value.

Greetings and Salutations. True Names have about 2 pages dedicated to it in Mysteries of Magic Book One: Heart of Magic. This is a PF book and line-ists won't like it, while Megaversal-ists might appreciate it more.

In short, it's at least part spiritual and how you identify yourself. For example, you can call yourself "Moonbeam" all you want, but when someone proper names you and you go all: "That's not my name, man." That recognition shows that you really DO still recognize it as your name, and you're attempting to deny it (but that doesn't change that it is, and you recognize it as such). That name has power over you. Another example. Kid goes by the name Chuck, and everyone calls him Chuck. But mother comes out on the porch and calls out: "Charles William Everitt!" The kid freezes with that "Uh oh ..." look on his face. Recognition, and shows the name has power over the kid.

Now in the PF setting, the book mentions how there tends to be ceremonies, etc. attached to the naming process. In more modern day (or Rifts), it's probably the one on your birth certificate (legal name that you recognize as your true name). With that said, the book does also discuss possible ways to change those true names (such as rituals, spiritual changes, etc.). So, in theory, if you suffer amnesia (or a total Mind Wipe), and you develop into a new person, you'd probably have a new true name as well.

For more details, check out Mysteries of Magic. This unfortunately does not help with BE. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Thanks!

[Tor]

It seems like you need ritual or big event to change a true name once it's in place, I just figure you don't need as much ritual to get one in the first place, assuming most or all people have a true name.

Like Marduk has a big 50-word name to protect him, but if you really wanted to protect someone, you wouldn't give them a true name at all because if one doesn't exist, it can't be used against you.

So I get the impression that a true name might be unavoidable. Maybe even among beings which do not use language...

Although I don't know if all spoken/grunted/picture-telepathed names would have written equivalents for things like Diabolism, but they may not be needed for spellcasting to bypass save bonuses.

[Killer Cyborg]

It seems like you need ritual or big event to change a true name once it's in place, I just figure you don't need as much ritual to get one in the first place, assuming most or all people have a true name.

Like Marduk has a big 50-word name to protect him, but if you really wanted to protect someone, you wouldn't give them a true name at all because if one doesn't exist, it can't be used against you.

So I get the impression that a true name might be unavoidable. Maybe even among beings which do not use language...

Although I don't know if all spoken/grunted/picture-telepathed names would have written equivalents for things like Diabolism, but they may not be needed for spellcasting to bypass save bonuses.

Agreed with the bolded.

Also, there is the PFRPG god Hoknar, who was "wrongly named," and who suffers as a result.
That might tie in.

[Nekira Sudacne]

That would be the first non-pronoun thing you are referred to as during birth, I guess?

Can't say, it's never really defined in game terms, and names have no intrinsic value in nature.
Kind of like "ownership."

In literature, FYI, such as Ursula LeGuine's books, a True Name is a verbal intonation of the person/being/object's nature, akin to a magic word that is keyed just to them.
Most people don't even know their own True Names, much less anybody else's.

Mysteries of Magic has an entire section defining what is your true name and it's effects.

Your True name is your full name at birth, which is why in soceities that know about magic, parents will often give children one name as their true name, and another nickname that they tell people that their name is. alternately people can adopt their own monikors to hide it, and royalty is always assumed to do this (So Prosek's true name can't be prosek)

However, with that said, it is possible to change your true name. A tribal Rite of Passage, wherein you receive a new name after becoming an adult, or a foreigner being accepted as one of the tribe, the name given at the end of the rite becomes your true name. Someone going on a spirtual journey to "Find themselves" and in doing so wind up changing their nature or alignment may choose a new True Name.

And anyone who decides to completely abandon their old life and start a new one--for example, selling all your worldly goods to join a monestary (or anyone changing OCC's to become a Preist), packing everything into a bag and moving to take on a new job in a new location, swearing to serve some lord as a Knight for the rest of your life, or even running away and joining the circus--anytime you truely abandon your past life completely and take up a new occupation entirely entitles you to choose a new True Name for yourself. But you have to completely burn your bridges behind you.

[Killer Cyborg]

That would be the first non-pronoun thing you are referred to as during birth, I guess?

Can't say, it's never really defined in game terms, and names have no intrinsic value in nature.
Kind of like "ownership."

In literature, FYI, such as Ursula LeGuine's books, a True Name is a verbal intonation of the person/being/object's nature, akin to a magic word that is keyed just to them.
Most people don't even know their own True Names, much less anybody else's.

Mysteries of Magic has an entire section defining what is your true name and it's effects.

Your True name is your full name at birth, which is why in soceities that know about magic, parents will often give children one name as their true name, and another nickname that they tell people that their name is. alternately people can adopt their own monikors to hide it, and royalty is always assumed to do this (So Prosek's true name can't be prosek)

However, with that said, it is possible to change your true name. A tribal Rite of Passage, wherein you receive a new name after becoming an adult, or a foreigner being accepted as one of the tribe, the name given at the end of the rite becomes your true name. Someone going on a spirtual journey to "Find themselves" and in doing so wind up changing their nature or alignment may choose a new True Name.

And anyone who decides to completely abandon their old life and start a new one--for example, selling all your worldly goods to join a monestary (or anyone changing OCC's to become a Preist), packing everything into a bag and moving to take on a new job in a new location, swearing to serve some lord as a Knight for the rest of your life, or even running away and joining the circus--anytime you truely abandon your past life completely and take up a new occupation entirely entitles you to choose a new True Name for yourself. But you have to completely burn your bridges behind you.

None of which makes a lick of sense when your starting philosophy is "x as a concept doesn't have any value in nature, so the mage just gets to make up whatever he when the word x is used."
Which was my original point.

[Tor]

Can anyone recall any non-verbal races who might lack this concept?

Zavor came to mind but they're immune to magic anyway so a lack of true name doesn't seem like it'd be an issue.

[Killer Cyborg]

Can anyone recall any non-verbal races who might lack this concept?

Zavor came to mind but they're immune to magic anyway so a lack of true name doesn't seem like it'd be an issue.

With a nonverbal race, a True Name might be a gesture or a scent or something.

[Tor]

So basically... to neutralize their magic save bonuses... you need to smell their True Scent?

[Nekira Sudacne]

So basically... to neutralize their magic save bonuses... you need to smell their True Scent?

Ah, but not being able to speak dosn't mean they won't have language. for a quick example, a purely telepathic race would probablly have true names, it would just require you to be psychic to learn it. also don't forget, Sign Language is a language, so even if there are any gestures at all involved, it's possible they could still speak it through sign.

[Killer Cyborg]

So basically... to neutralize their magic save bonuses... you need to smell their True Scent?

Ah, but not being able to speak dosn't mean they won't have language. for a quick example, a purely telepathic race would probablly have true names, it would just require you to be psychic to learn it. also don't forget, Sign Language is a language, so even if there are any gestures at all involved, it's possible they could still speak it through sign.

Techno-Can is also a non-verbal language, I believe.

[Tor]

Would be interesting if you had that insect-click language used by the Kreeghor and a true name in that and someone would be unable to learn your true name and use it against you withuot learning the language first.

Requiring a native language skill roll when using true names would be a nice limit on what is otherwise incredibly overpowered.

[eliakon]

Would be interesting if you had that insect-click language used by the Kreeghor and a true name in that and someone would be unable to learn your true name and use it against you withuot learning the language first.

Requiring a native language skill roll when using true names would be a nice limit on what is otherwise incredibly overpowered.

You don't need to know the language to know the true name though.
A wizard can use a demons true name with out knowing Demogorgian.
Its not even clear if you have to say the name or just know it. (the PF Circles and Wards excepted of course).

[Tor]

How can you remember a name in a language you can't speak though? Or with sounds you can't even pronounce? I think part of memory is being able to recite something to yourself (even in your own head). I'd be bound to forget a Kreeghor name in insect-clicking if I ever heard it since I couldn't enunciate it mentally to reinforce it.

[eliakon]

How can you remember a name in a language you can't speak though? Or with sounds you can't even pronounce? I think part of memory is being able to recite something to yourself (even in your own head). I'd be bound to forget a Kreeghor name in insect-clicking if I ever heard it since I couldn't enunciate it mentally to reinforce it.

I remember the name Adolf with out knowing German, I know the name Nero with out speaking Latin, I know the name Worf and don't know Klingon....
It might be harder to remember a 'word' that you cant pronounce....although I can remember all sorts of things that I cant pronounce (like corporate logos, art, and the like)
I would there for disagree that you need to know the language that a name is in to know the name.

[Tor]

German and Latin use the same letters, which makes it easier to remember words or names.

Remembering Japanese is harder, we can usually remember how it sounds because of Romaji aiding us, but I couldn't recognize it being written out.

Even Japanese though, is still a human language with sounds I am able to pronounce, even if there are issues like accents.

Clicking though... whole other level.

I would say... we might take for granted a mage's ability to remember a name in a language he knows, but question a mage's ability to remember one in one he doesn't.

Doesn't necessarily mean 'no skill no remember' but maybe a base skill roll that's pretty low if you don't have the language.

[eliakon]

German and Latin use the same letters, which makes it easier to remember words or names.

Remembering Japanese is harder, we can usually remember how it sounds because of Romaji aiding us, but I couldn't recognize it being written out.

You don't have to be able to recognize it. You just have to know it. Unless your going to argue that you can only know words you can read here then it doesn't matter how I remember/know it just that I do.

Even Japanese though, is still a human language with sounds I am able to pronounce, even if there are issues like accents.

Clicking though... whole other level.

I am not aware of any rule what so ever that says I have to be able to pronounce a Truename to use it.

I would say... we might take for granted a mage's ability to remember a name in a language he knows, but question a mage's ability to remember one in one he doesn't.

Doesn't necessarily mean 'no skill no remember' but maybe a base skill roll that's pretty low if you don't have the language.

That would be a perfectly valid house rule to institute in your game if you wish to change the rules to make Truenames less potent. There is no precedent what so ever in the game for such though, but you could do it sure.

[Tor]

I'm just saying an inability to pronounce a true name would interfere with remembering it.

You can still recognize and even remember sounds. But think of how much harder that is with stuff like barks or bird calls.

Even for those with the ability to recognize a bird species or a dog bark, they might not necessarily be able to recall it at will. Like how if you see someone's face you might recognize them, but if someone said a name, you might not be able to envision a face.

There is no precedent what so ever in the game for such though, but you could do it sure.

There's also no precident that people have perfect memory, so GMs can tell a player they forget whatever they want them to forget. Proposing that this be replaced with rules instead of GM fiat doesn't seem horrible.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. If only there was some canon example of a non-human language (such as Wolfen) that used other aspects to it (such as grunts, whimpers, growls, and even body language) nor used romanji (such as a "unique" written language, which can be viewed on the official Palladium chat last I checked). Then we could see if this race has any exemptions made (Wolfen being a major race in PF, the setting Mysteries of Magic is written for). And if only speakers of that language (kankoran) had been addressed in two pages of write-up on True Names in some book (Mysteries of Magic). If that had happened we might be able to see if they included any exclusionary rules for such a language (they didn't). Farewell and safe journeys.

[Tor]

It's not so much the lack of exclusion, but that some characters have perfect memory as a special ability (total recall being an example) so those without it would have imperfect memories and might forget critical data like passwords, phone numbers or true names. Rules on rolling to remember (like rolling perception) might be interesting, with penalties if something is alien like a name from a different language, a long name or number, etc. Easier to remember a 2-person name like Loni Kashbrook compared to Marduk's 50 names.