Divine beings from parallel dimensions?

[flatline]

The level 13 Temporal Magic spell Id Self has long been one of my favorite spells as a player. Plucking a parallel dimension version of myself out of its dimension and into my own is a convenient way to make allies whose abilities are likely to compliment my own.

However, I've never been comfortable with the idea that there are parallel dimension versions of divine beings like, say, Odin. So I've always house ruled that if a god, or by extension, a godling, demi-god or any other character who has a divine ancestor, were to cast Id Self, nothing would happen since they are singular entities with no alternate versions of themselves existing in parallel universes.

Anyone else given this some thought?

--flatline

[Tor]

Naw, I say there's infinite dimensional versions of everyone, including gods. Would help to explain the whole Od/Odin Loki/Loknar Thor/Hoknar Modeus/Asmodeus stuff.

Of course, the other versions of the gods may live in versions of the universe where the Coming of the Rifts never occurred and be too weak to come here under their own power, so they may not be a regular threat if you can manage to send them back.

This also might explain who the ten thousand gods/AIs in Europe are.

[Zamion138]

The comming of the rifts isnt what super charged the gods so much as being on rifts earth they become more powerfull due to the surrounding ppe.
Thor alpha and thor beta should both increase to roughly the same stats baring level diffrences with the ID self spell.

Is their one 4th diminsion for an unlimited number of 3rd diminsion universes? Or an unlimited number 4th diminsions attached to each 3rd diminsional universe?

[flatline]

I would imagine that a great many gods have access to the Doppleganger spell of legend. It's not an impressive spell when a human caster uses is since attributes are halved, but if, say, Odin were to cast it, the doppleganger would have iq:17, me:17, ma:10, ps:21, pe:14, pb:7, spd:44, mdc:8600, ppe:5000, half of all the spells in existence, and, presumably, the same natural abilities (including Deific powers?) that Odin has. If you're willing to count such a doppleganger as a god, then that might help pad the number of gods roaming the area.

--flatline

[Alrik Vas]

I always looked at it that gods transcend dimension, so it's the same divine being in every reality, as their home realms are just different dimensions just like an alternate reality is.

[Nightmask]

Palladium seems to have the 'gods/alien intelligences/great old ones are singular beings' vibe going rather than them having a chance of alternate counterparts. BUT that doesn't mean lesser deities or demi-gods couldn't have them, there's just the question that even if they had counterparts why would they call them?

[flatline]

Palladium seems to have the 'gods/alien intelligences/great old ones are singular beings' vibe going rather than them having a chance of alternate counterparts. BUT that doesn't mean lesser deities or demi-gods couldn't have them, there's just the question that even if they had counterparts why would they call them?

Same reason anyone else would be interested in summoning an alternate version of themselves: to find a potential ally (or slave or sucker, depending on your alignment and intentions).

--flatline

[Nekira Sudacne]

The level 13 Temporal Magic spell Id Self has long been one of my favorite spells as a player. Plucking a parallel dimension version of myself out of its dimension and into my own is a convenient way to make allies whose abilities are likely to compliment my own.

However, I've never been comfortable with the idea that there are parallel dimension versions of divine beings like, say, Odin. So I've always house ruled that if a god, or by extension, a godling, demi-god or any other character who has a divine ancestor, were to cast Id Self, nothing would happen since they are singular entities with no alternate versions of themselves existing in parallel universes.

Anyone else given this some thought?

--flatline

Why not go one up to alien intelligences.

if Thoth cast Id Self, what would happen? Is there more than one Xy? by extention does that mean he could get a GOOD aligned one? would it be a full xy, or another thoth, or either, assuming in some universes he gets turned into Thoth and some he dosn't.

How about Splurgorth? Someone like Nxla?

I think the cosmology works better if cosmic-scale beings are "unique".

If this applys to lesser gods is a matter for debate.

[Alrik Vas]

lol Thoth casts Id Self, summons Xy, other old ones wake up in response, Megaverse over.

[Zamion138]

lol Thoth casts Id Self, summons Xy, other old ones wake up in response, Megaverse over.

But do you think he has a mental block to not cast that, like subconsciously he knows this would happen hence he hasnt tried it? he surely knows it.

[Nekira Sudacne]

lol Thoth casts Id Self, summons Xy, other old ones wake up in response, Megaverse over.

But do you think he has a mental block to not cast that, like subconsciously he knows this would happen hence he hasnt tried it? he surely knows it.

Thoth knows every spell that ever existed anywhere as a devine power, but as a side-effect of his transformation forgets most of them exist most of the time

[Alrik Vas]

well, I was making a joke...I really have no idea what would happen if he casted that spell. the way I do things, it wouldn't work at all anyway.

[wyrmraker]

That would be hysterical. Rifts Odin casts Id Self, Marvel Odin shows up, smacks him around for being a jerk, tells the party off in a sanctimonious voice, then goes to Asgard to "Do a little housecleaning". Because let's face it, Marvel Odin is one of the Powers That Be, and might be intrigued enough to follow the tug of the spell.

[glitterboy2098]

going with "gods are sinular beings" bit..
why not make Id-self just create an "avatar" of the god which expresses one aspect of their domain more clearly than the others. effectively it creates a godling version of the god?

[Tor]

If I was a god who knew Doppleganger I would totally be using that all the time.

Too bad dopplegangers disappear when they die, otherwise I'd kill one and make them into a zombie and then possess it like a robot.

Thoth knows every spell that ever existed anywhere as a devine power

Where'd it say that? I should assume Xy knew Biomancy and Spirit West style Shaman magic?

[Nekira Sudacne]

If I was a god who knew Doppleganger I would totally be using that all the time.

Too bad dopplegangers disappear when they die, otherwise I'd kill one and make them into a zombie and then possess it like a robot.

Thoth knows every spell that ever existed anywhere as a devine power

Where'd it say that? I should assume Xy knew Biomancy and Spirit West style Shaman magic?

Dragons and Gods under Magic Powers:

Magic Powers: Except for elemental magic and Necromancy, Thoth possesses all known (and many unknown to the world of mortals) magical abilities, spells and powers.

There. The only ones he dosn't know are Warlock spells (He isn't an elemental deity), and necromancy (Maybe he agreed to not learn it as some kind of concession to Osrius when he was alive?)

It is hard to say if Xy knew them before he became thoth, it could be something Thoth gained as god of knowlege that Xy didn't have.

[flatline]

If I was a god who knew Doppleganger I would totally be using that all the time.

Too bad dopplegangers disappear when they die, otherwise I'd kill one and make them into a zombie and then possess it like a robot.

Seriously! Create Doppleganger-Odin, absorb 1000 PPE from him, send him off to do your bidding with a mere 4000 PPE at his disposal.

Annoyed with the vampires? Splugorth? CS? NGR? Send a fresh doppleganger after them every couple of hours until you've destroyed them through attrition (this assumes you can tell when a doppleganger has been destroyed so that you know you can create a new one).

--flatline

[Nekira Sudacne]

If I was a god who knew Doppleganger I would totally be using that all the time.

Too bad dopplegangers disappear when they die, otherwise I'd kill one and make them into a zombie and then possess it like a robot.

Seriously! Create Doppleganger-Odin, absorb 1000 PPE from him, send him off to do your bidding with a mere 4000 PPE at his disposal.

Annoyed with the vampires? Splugorth? CS? NGR? Send a fresh doppleganger after them every couple of hours until you've destroyed them through attrition (this assumes you can tell when a doppleganger has been destroyed so that you know you can create a new one).

--flatline

The problem is every doppleganger has a 5% chance to become "real" and no longer subject to control by the origional, nor will it wear out, in which case you might end up with a 1/2 strength you running around who might not like the fact you used him as cannon fodder.

Which leads to another thing: if your doppleganger becomes real, does he suddenly start getting half your worship, or heck, can he start a cult of his own and eventually become more powerful than you?

[Tor]

Dragons and Gods under Magic Powers:

Magic Powers: Except for elemental magic and Necromancy, Thoth possesses all known (and many unknown to the world of mortals) magical abilities, spells and powers.

Huh... well since it's a PF sourcebook first and a Rifts one second, one might make the argument that this refers to magic introduced in the PF series and not the entire Megaverse.

The parenthesized "and many unknown to the world of mortals" might mean that it is known in "the world" (the Palladium world) rather than Megaverse.

[flatline]

The problem is every doppleganger has a 5% chance to become "real" and no longer subject to control by the origional, nor will it wear out, in which case you might end up with a 1/2 strength you running around who might not like the fact you used him as cannon fodder.

What makes you think that a "permanent" doppleganger doesn't remain under your control? Or that the caster can't end the effect and cause the doppleganger to disappear at any time?

--flatline

[Lenwen]

I tend to agree with the OP. Yes, many (infinite ?) dimensions hold many (infinite ?) versions of every none divine beings .. My reasoning is ..

A)- Were none divine beings, and thus can not live off of worship alone. There are infinite "copies" of none divine beings in every single other "dimension"

B)- Divine beings are divine due entirely to the fact they are thee lone singular essence of that manifestation in whole of existence in that realm / dimension an beyond, the fact that they can and do live off of worship alone is my justification of this.

[eliakon]

The problem is every doppleganger has a 5% chance to become "real" and no longer subject to control by the origional, nor will it wear out, in which case you might end up with a 1/2 strength you running around who might not like the fact you used him as cannon fodder.

What makes you think that a "permanent" doppleganger doesn't remain under your control? Or that the caster can't end the effect and cause the doppleganger to disappear at any time?

--flatline

The first is that you never had control of the doppleganger in the first place. You only get to "implant any idea, goal, emotion, memory, etc, that he desires...then awakens it."
Nothing about having control out side of carefully crafted implanted goals, emotions, memories....

The second falls under a question of if spell casters can cancel a spell that creates something. Is the Doppleganger a spell effect (thus legal target for canceling) or is the spell effect the creation, and the Doppleganger the final result of the spell (not a legal target anymore than the damage of a fireball, or the water created by a 'create water' spell can be canceled)

[Nekira Sudacne]

Dragons and Gods under Magic Powers:

Magic Powers: Except for elemental magic and Necromancy, Thoth possesses all known (and many unknown to the world of mortals) magical abilities, spells and powers.

Huh... well since it's a PF sourcebook first and a Rifts one second, one might make the argument that this refers to magic introduced in the PF series and not the entire Megaverse.

The parenthesized "and many unknown to the world of mortals" might mean that it is known in "the world" (the Palladium world) rather than Megaverse.

That is a reasonable argument to make, it's not entirely clear.

[Nightmaster]

Dude... just re-read the Pantheons of the Megaverse book.

The entries of SDC/MDC and PPE of each of the gods in there describes how much power they have with Rifts Earth dimension and in another dimension.

That clearly indicates that gods are unique in the "Megaverse". The only exception would be godlings (mortals that attained godhood) and demi-gods, because I doubt Zeus (or any other god) got the same woman pregnant on all the possible dimensions...

Since the Megaverse contains all the possible dimensions, there's no room for the Spell Id Self to call a god's alternate version of himself. Godlings and demigods could summom the mortal versions of thenself though.

Just my two cents

[Nightmask]

Dude... just re-read the Pantheons of the Megaverse book.

The entries of SDC/MDC and PPE of each of the gods in there describes how much power they have with Rifts Earth dimension and in another dimension.

That clearly indicates that gods are unique in the "Megaverse". The only exception would be godlings (mortals that attained godhood) and demi-gods, because I doubt Zeus (or any other god) got the same woman pregnant on all the possible dimensions...

Hey now, that's Zeus you're talking about, trying to get the same woman in all possible dimensions is totally in his personality to try and do.

[say652]

I see it as plausible.
When Thor fought the godslayer.
Odin force Thor, Avengers Thor and young Thor all existed at the same time to battle the being.
Now this is pulling selves from time not dimensions but in Rifts I totally see Zues or Odin using the spell for three more of themselves to aid in combat.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Dude... just re-read the Pantheons of the Megaverse book.

The entries of SDC/MDC and PPE of each of the gods in there describes how much power they have with Rifts Earth dimension and in another dimension.

That clearly indicates that gods are unique in the "Megaverse". The only exception would be godlings (mortals that attained godhood) and demi-gods, because I doubt Zeus (or any other god) got the same woman pregnant on all the possible dimensions...

Since the Megaverse contains all the possible dimensions, there's no room for the Spell Id Self to call a god's alternate version of himself. Godlings and demigods could summom the mortal versions of thenself though.

Just my two cents

unless there is more than one megaverse....

[Nightmaster]

Dude... just re-read the Pantheons of the Megaverse book.

The entries of SDC/MDC and PPE of each of the gods in there describes how much power they have with Rifts Earth dimension and in another dimension.

That clearly indicates that gods are unique in the "Megaverse". The only exception would be godlings (mortals that attained godhood) and demi-gods, because I doubt Zeus (or any other god) got the same woman pregnant on all the possible dimensions...

Since the Megaverse contains all the possible dimensions, there's no room for the Spell Id Self to call a god's alternate version of himself. Godlings and demigods could summom the mortal versions of thenself though.

Just my two cents

unless there is more than one megaverse....

Unlikely

See the description of Brahma in the Pantheons of the Megaverse book for why I dont believe there's other "Megaverses".

Also, the Old Ones are described as the ones that shaped the Megaverse in all its colors (concepts of magic, life, power and etc) and they are sleeping under supervision of Brahma and other all powerful gods.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Dude... just re-read the Pantheons of the Megaverse book.

The entries of SDC/MDC and PPE of each of the gods in there describes how much power they have with Rifts Earth dimension and in another dimension.

That clearly indicates that gods are unique in the "Megaverse". The only exception would be godlings (mortals that attained godhood) and demi-gods, because I doubt Zeus (or any other god) got the same woman pregnant on all the possible dimensions...

Since the Megaverse contains all the possible dimensions, there's no room for the Spell Id Self to call a god's alternate version of himself. Godlings and demigods could summom the mortal versions of thenself though.

Just my two cents

unless there is more than one megaverse....

Unlikely

See the description of Brahma in the Pantheons of the Megaverse book for why I dont believe there's other "Megaverses".

Also, the Old Ones are described as the ones that shaped the Megaverse in all its colors (concepts of magic, life, power and etc) and they are sleeping under supervision of Brahma and other all powerful gods.

I did, that's why my first post said that "The cosmology works better if there isn't multiple versions of cosmic beings.

but...if one player in game A Kills Braman with his HyperSuperMegaGigaDeathLaser 18,000,000, does he die in your games too?

There are as many megaverses as there are GM's running games, each with their own iterations of these canon characters. therefore there is hypothetically infinate more.

I'm simply pointing out an argument that can go for either interpretation.

[Nightmaster]

I did, that's why my first post said that "The cosmology works better if there isn't multiple versions of cosmic beings.

but...if one player in game A Kills Braman with his HyperSuperMegaGigaDeathLaser 18,000,000, does he die in your games too?

There are as many megaverses as there are GM's running games, each with their own iterations of these canon characters. therefore there is hypothetically infinate more.

I'm simply pointing out an argument that can go for either interpretation.

First that dont make any sense.

Second, The megaverse (the way the books describe) dont exist. Its a fiction used by a group of players in a tabletop Rpg game. There's no connection between all the Rpg players using Rifts and its books. This is not a MMORPG or even a collective mind game (that would be fantastic if they ever created such thing ).

We are discusing a spell that by the way the game setting is described, would not be able to summon a "alternate" version of a god simply because the said god is a unique entity in the entire megaverse. There's no marging for arguments on this.

[eliakon]

I did, that's why my first post said that "The cosmology works better if there isn't multiple versions of cosmic beings.

but...if one player in game A Kills Braman with his HyperSuperMegaGigaDeathLaser 18,000,000, does he die in your games too?

There are as many megaverses as there are GM's running games, each with their own iterations of these canon characters. therefore there is hypothetically infinate more.

I'm simply pointing out an argument that can go for either interpretation.

First that dont make any sense.

Second, The megaverse (the way the books describe) dont exist. Its a fiction used by a group of players in a tabletop Rpg game. There's no connection between all the Rpg players using Rifts and its books. This is not a MMORPG or even a collective mind game (that would be fantastic if they ever created such thing ).

We are discusing a spell that by the way the game setting is described, would not be able to summon a "alternate" version of a god simply because the said god is a unique entity in the entire megaverse. There's no marging for arguments on this.

The setting as described already raises the possibility of all games existing (if they all play in the palladium 'Megaverse' then either there are multiple megaverses, or they all connect in some way....)
This sets aside the fact that there is, as I recall, mention of alternate worlds that have different cosmologies (A world where such and so god did/didn't die)
And even with out it the rules book doesn't rule out me as a GM having, for example, a dimension where Ragnarok has come and gone already.....
So its false to claim that the books describe the setting in a certain way. Nor is there any explicit statement that they are unique. That is a perfectly valid personal decision (i.e. a houserule) But there is noting to make it an 'official default setting' to the game.

[Tor]

Dude... just re-read the Pantheons of the Megaverse book.

The entries of SDC/MDC and PPE of each of the gods in there describes how much power they have with Rifts Earth dimension and in another dimension.

That clearly indicates that gods are unique in the "Megaverse".

That's not what that means.

[Nightmaster]

The setting as described already raises the possibility of all games existing (if they all play in the palladium 'Megaverse' then either there are multiple megaverses, or they all connect in some way....)
This sets aside the fact that there is, as I recall, mention of alternate worlds that have different cosmologies (A world where such and so god did/didn't die)
And even with out it the rules book doesn't rule out me as a GM having, for example, a dimension where Ragnarok has come and gone already.....
So its false to claim that the books describe the setting in a certain way. Nor is there any explicit statement that they are unique. That is a perfectly valid personal decision (i.e. a houserule) But there is noting to make it an 'official default setting' to the game.

Dude... just re-read the Pantheons of the Megaverse book.

The entries of SDC/MDC and PPE of each of the gods in there describes how much power they have with Rifts Earth dimension and in another dimension.

That clearly indicates that gods are unique in the "Megaverse".

That's not what that means.

In truth C.J. Carella mentions the notion of different beings in different dimensions having the same name. He clearly describe:

Another possibility is to decide that some god beings existed and ruled in some worlds of the Megaverse and that in others, they were replaced by impostors or different beings in parallel dimensions.

The idea of the "Megaverse" is that all dimensions are connected. If that's the case then all "Gods" are either true gods and thus unique in the megaverse or they are impostors/Alien intelligences that took the name of a God from mythology.

True gods like Odin, Zeus, Brahma, Zurvan and etc are unique entities. They transend universes.

ID Self would at best summom an imposter/Alien intelligence that is using the god name.

[glitterboy2098]

sounds like Mr. Carella was saying "let the Gm decide", especially since that line was part of a larger section called "selecting a pantheon" in which we also got lines like:

The easiest thing to do is to pick one of the entries as the one pantheon
to be used in the campaign and stick to it.

and

Even better, maybe two or more groups of gods, all going by the
same name, were competing for worshippers in ancient times, and may
start doing so again.

and the whole section starts off with:

As the introduction mentioned, most pantheons have more than one
entry for the same god, representing a different origin, abilities and
power level. After deciding the role of the gods in the campaign, the
GM should choose which one of those entries is the true one or the
one(s) he wishes to incorporate in his campaign (they can all be appropriate;
see below).

which makes it clear that he wasn't discussing the metaphysics of deities in the megaverse, just "how to use this book"

[say652]

I was working on a modern pantheon led by Apollo.
Mainly good aligned dieties that would be active in rifts earth.
This sit n plot approach is very very very like extremely lame.