Question logistically about .. The Vanguard.

[Lenwen]

Ok so typical squad is 5 members..

1 member onlyer squad knows one person up the chain then his own squad..

1,000 members are supposedly in chi-town burbs..

They use nicknames and cover their faces even then when they do go for meetings ..

1). How do they know who to set up the meetings with ..

2). How do they activate "sleeper" agents ?

3). How do they get new agendas down to every one in a timely matter that they actually have a decent enough of a window of oportunity to actually implement an ambush ..

4). What's the maximum number of agents anyone can know ?

5). How do they not attack each other ?? (this one really gets me considering the whole mask and nicknames when dealing with higher ups)

[Nekira Sudacne]

Ok so typical squad is 5 members..

1 member onlyer squad knows one person up the chain then his own squad..

1,000 members are supposedly in chi-town burbs..

They use nicknames and cover their faces even then when they do go for meetings ..

1). How do they know who to set up the meetings with ..

How does any secret organization know who to set up meetings with? there is always some leader, or leadership council who knows far more than just 5 and are the biggest security risks in the organization, which is why the leadership makes like the leaders of terrorist organizations who also have a cell-based structure: they live in a hideout, or several hideouts they move between, and never have contact with anyone who isn't also a high ranking member to minimize the risk of exposure.

2). How do they activate "sleeper" agents ?

3). How do they get new agendas down to every one in a timely matter that they actually have a decent enough of a window of oportunity to actually implement an ambush ..

Runners, magic calling spells, ley line transmission, blind drops, or even simple encrypted radios. basically how any covert organization keeps organized.

4). What's the maximum number of agents anyone can know ?

For rank and file members, 3-5. for cell leaders, add another 3-5 on top. for executives, "as many as needed to do the job, but congradulations you have no freedom of movement anymore"

5). How do they not attack each other ?? (this one really gets me considering the whole mask and nicknames when dealing with higher ups)

They are not supposed to attack anyone without orders. also the cells are spaced out to minimize the risk of them bumbing into each-other.

All of the above are examples of "real world" covert organizations, and if you stop and think i'm sure you can come up with new methods that magic opens up.

Bottom line, you can never elimate the risk of exposure or friendly fire, but you can minimize it.

[Library Ogre]

An old Slate article on cell organization might be useful.

[Lenwen]

How does any secret organization know who to set up meetings with? there is always some leader, or leadership council who knows far more than just 5 and are the biggest security risks in the organization, which is why the leadership makes like the leaders of terrorist organizations who also have a cell-based structure: they live in a hideout, or several hideouts they move between, and never have contact with anyone who isn't also a high ranking member to minimize the risk of exposure.

Again .. You have to know who to contact .. (they have no clue how to, (hiding their faces, as well as using made up names)) setting up contact with some one you have no idea how to get ahold of, as well as no idea who they are .. negates Absolutely ANY means in the game .. for attempting to get ahold of for any reason what so ever ..

Today's units .. stratetically know who to get ahold of, because they use Real names, (or call signs) and are attached to units which which are known .. (Vangaurd do not share that)

Runners, magic calling spells, ley line transmission, blind drops, or even simple encrypted radios. basically how any covert organization keeps organized.

Again, one person (out of the squad of 5) knows "of" his superior in the cell higher then his, Once that dude is dead / taken out .. There goes ALL known ways of contacting THAT particular cell again as no one know's .. who those other cell members are .. How .. do they get in touch then ?

[Nekira Sudacne]

How does any secret organization know who to set up meetings with? there is always some leader, or leadership council who knows far more than just 5 and are the biggest security risks in the organization, which is why the leadership makes like the leaders of terrorist organizations who also have a cell-based structure: they live in a hideout, or several hideouts they move between, and never have contact with anyone who isn't also a high ranking member to minimize the risk of exposure.

Again .. You have to know who to contact .. (they have no clue how to, (hiding their faces, as well as using made up names)) setting up contact with some one you have no idea how to get ahold of, as well as no idea who they are .. negates Absolutely ANY means in the game .. for attempting to get ahold of for any reason what so ever ..

Today's units .. stratetically know who to get ahold of, because they use Real names, (or call signs) and are attached to units which which are known .. (Vangaurd do not share that)

Runners, magic calling spells, ley line transmission, blind drops, or even simple encrypted radios. basically how any covert organization keeps organized.

Again, one person (out of the squad of 5) knows "of" his superior in the cell higher then his, Once that dude is dead / taken out .. There goes ALL known ways of contacting THAT particular cell again as no one know's .. who those other cell members are .. How .. do they get in touch then ?

As I said, the leadership has records and knowlege beyond what given individuals know. when the established contact is taken out, there's clearly some kind of procedure in place for the cell to be contacted and verified. or they don't and they just get lost. it's the risks of secret organization.

[Library Ogre]

Cells, no doubt, occassionally get "lost"... the people who knew about them disappear, but they don't get picked up. Bobby knew them, but Bobby pulled a gun on a Dog Boy and got turned into mist and kibble. That cell gets cut off for a while. They might go quiet, not doing anything without orders. They may act on their own. Especially in the second case, they eventually get noticed and reconnected, this time knowing someone else in the organization.

It is hella inefficient. You might lose a bunch of valuable resources just because the wrong person got killed. But it's not a system you use when you want efficiency. It's a system you use when you want survivability. Because if Echo cell gets entirely cut off, it might be because EVERYONE ELSE IS DEAD. Echo Cell MIGHT be cut off because one link in the chain is gone, or they may get cut off because the entire chain got melted down into some medals for your enemies. Echo Cell is all that remains... and if they're careful, they can regrow the entire organization.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Codes words , secret handshakes, and something wore in a certain spot . The vanguard is basically a secret society and odds are the operate as such. Just because the person who is the main contact is now dead, does not mean the rest of the team doesn't know where and when to meet the contact, stuff like that is normally set up as a safeguard.

Let's say cell 1C misses the last couple of check ins then the leadership cell sends someone to find out why.

[Tor]

Consider the BBC series 'Merlin' for examples of what a single operative can be capable of when operating within a magic-hostile kingdom.

[Lenwen]

According to canon only 1 person per cell .. knows One individual above his cell .. Thats it.

According to canon that 1 person gets taken out, That cell is now lost to every other aspect of The Vangaurd. There is no known way for them to be able to contact that cell again.

[Nekira Sudacne]

According to canon only 1 person per cell .. knows One individual above his cell .. Thats it.

According to canon that 1 person gets taken out, That cell is now lost to every other aspect of The Vangaurd. There is no known way for them to be able to contact that cell again.

Just because only one person in a cell knows anyone over their cell, dosn't mean there are not people above the cell who also know.

A only knows B, but B might be known to A, C, D, F, and Q and is unaware that they know him. that restriction only applys to people who are in cells, not leaders who are not in cells.

[Lenwen]

Just because only one person in a cell knows anyone over their cell, dosn't mean there are not people above the cell who also know.

A only knows B, but B might be known to A, C, D, F, and Q and is unaware that they know him. that restriction only applys to people who are in cells, not leaders who are not in cells.

The book clearly define's who knows who .. And 1 person per cell is all that there is .. for knowing anyone outside their cell .. for 1 cell above them.

So yes, in this instance, Canonly speaking .. it is 1 person per 5 man squad .. knows 1 extra person thats it .. (according to the book)

Which is impossible .. for any military gorilla style warfare what so ever on any sizable front .. Hence .. my questions .

[Glistam]

Just because only one person in a cell knows anyone over their cell, dosn't mean there are not people above the cell who also know.

A only knows B, but B might be known to A, C, D, F, and Q and is unaware that they know him. that restriction only applys to people who are in cells, not leaders who are not in cells.

The book clearly define's who knows who .. And 1 person per cell is all that there is .. for knowing anyone outside their cell .. for 1 cell above them.

So yes, in this instance, Canonly speaking .. it is 1 person per 5 man squad .. knows 1 extra person thats it .. (according to the book)

Which is impossible .. for any military gorilla style warfare what so ever on any sizable front .. Hence .. my questions .

Canonically speaking, page 13 of the Vanguard book also says this:

Most members of the secret society do not know more than a dozen comrades nor where everybody is located or what all the ongoing operations are. Only a couple top leaders know that information.

The text later on that page which then states that the leader of a 5 man cell only knows his superior above him and his 4 other cell members seems to be a direct contradicton. But canonically both statements are true.

[flatline]

I don't really have any issues with the cell structure. Its lack of upward connectedness makes it unlikely that someone in a lower cell can compromise the identities of the leaders if they're captured or turned. The risk of cells being orphaned is a small price to pay.

What bothers me is that a small group of people (the Vanguard org as a whole) split into even smaller groups (cells) has somehow developed a bunch of unique OCCs.

--flatline

[Lenwen]

Just because only one person in a cell knows anyone over their cell, dosn't mean there are not people above the cell who also know.

A only knows B, but B might be known to A, C, D, F, and Q and is unaware that they know him. that restriction only applys to people who are in cells, not leaders who are not in cells.

The book clearly define's who knows who .. And 1 person per cell is all that there is .. for knowing anyone outside their cell .. for 1 cell above them.

So yes, in this instance, Canonly speaking .. it is 1 person per 5 man squad .. knows 1 extra person thats it .. (according to the book)

Which is impossible .. for any military gorilla style warfare what so ever on any sizable front .. Hence .. my questions .

Canonically speaking, page 13 of the Vanguard book also says this:

Most members of the secret society do not know more than a dozen comrades nor where everybody is located or what all the ongoing operations are. Only a couple top leaders know that information.

The text later on that page which then states that the leader of a 5 man cell only knows his superior above him and his 4 other cell members seems to be a direct contradicton. But canonically both statements are true.

It would seem to be a "contradiction" however, when you go over the numbers of the totality of the secret sociaty , we get the number around 1,000 ..

1000 / 5 man squads = 200 squads. Take that 200 squads, now we get at LEAST 200 members that know 1 person each, outside of their cell ..

So if you ask me personally it is not a contradiction, it supports what is already written.

[Lenwen]

What bothers me is that a small group of people (the Vanguard org as a whole) split into even smaller groups (cells) has somehow developed a bunch of unique OCCs.

--flatline

Another extremely good point.. this secret sociaty in its Extremely limited time in total exsistence, has managed to create entirely new occ's .. where as places that have been in place for hundreds if not thousands of years .. Can not do that exact same thing .. Canonly speaking ..

[Glistam]

The fact that one member can know up to a dozen other members does not line up with the assertion of every squad member knowing only four or five members.

[kaid]

Cells, no doubt, occassionally get "lost"... the people who knew about them disappear, but they don't get picked up. Bobby knew them, but Bobby pulled a gun on a Dog Boy and got turned into mist and kibble. That cell gets cut off for a while. They might go quiet, not doing anything without orders. They may act on their own. Especially in the second case, they eventually get noticed and reconnected, this time knowing someone else in the organization.

It is hella inefficient. You might lose a bunch of valuable resources just because the wrong person got killed. But it's not a system you use when you want efficiency. It's a system you use when you want survivability. Because if Echo cell gets entirely cut off, it might be because EVERYONE ELSE IS DEAD. Echo Cell MIGHT be cut off because one link in the chain is gone, or they may get cut off because the entire chain got melted down into some medals for your enemies. Echo Cell is all that remains... and if they're careful, they can regrow the entire organization.

Yup its spycraft 101 the ones who are lower skilled/less trusted/newer are the ones working farther to fringes of the cell network. If there is a cut off these are typically the assets you are most likely to lose contact with. The more higher rank you are the more likely hood you have a few avenues of contact so if one is severed you not totally in the dark. But all but the highest ranking people are not going to know more than a handful of contacts outside their cells because the whole system is setup so it can absorb a lot of casualties without compromising the system itself.

[eliakon]

What bothers me is that a small group of people (the Vanguard org as a whole) split into even smaller groups (cells) has somehow developed a bunch of unique OCCs.

--flatline

Another extremely good point.. this secret sociaty in its Extremely limited time in total exsistence, has managed to create entirely new occ's .. where as places that have been in place for hundreds if not thousands of years .. Can not do that exact same thing .. Canonly speaking ..

Fortunately mostly the OCCs are just regular magic OCCs with a slight focus shift. The Translocator though......
That suggests to me that there as something rotten in the state of Denmark....or possibly it is a hold over from when they were a CS military program. Perhaps this is the result of flawed handing down of training from old (possibly only partially trained) CS Temporal Warriors?
Hmmmm


P.S. Remember the Vanguard did not spring up full blown as an underground operation. At one time it was a full blown military program in the Coalition military. Openly recruiting, open training that sort of thing. Back then they probably took in a lot of (human) mages from all over North America...which means that the Vanguard OCCs may not be something they invented, but rather something they inherited.

[kaid]

I don't really have any issues with the cell structure. Its lack of upward connectedness makes it unlikely that someone in a lower cell can compromise the identities of the leaders if they're captured or turned. The risk of cells being orphaned is a small price to pay.

What bothers me is that a small group of people (the Vanguard org as a whole) split into even smaller groups (cells) has somehow developed a bunch of unique OCCs.

--flatline

Well given they were at one point part of the chi town military and were training and developing magic for use with the military and with the constraints their politics imposed upon their access to magic I would guess most of the vanguard OCC's were originally CS occ's that when they were officially disbanded were maintained by those who had practiced those arts.

[flatline]

I don't really have any issues with the cell structure. Its lack of upward connectedness makes it unlikely that someone in a lower cell can compromise the identities of the leaders if they're captured or turned. The risk of cells being orphaned is a small price to pay.

What bothers me is that a small group of people (the Vanguard org as a whole) split into even smaller groups (cells) has somehow developed a bunch of unique OCCs.

--flatline

Well given they were at one point part of the chi town military and were training and developing magic for use with the military and with the constraints their politics imposed upon their access to magic I would guess most of the vanguard OCC's were originally CS occ's that when they were officially disbanded were maintained by those who had practiced those arts.

The Translocator can learn temporal spells faster than a Temporal Wizard.

Ponder that for a moment.

--flatline

[kaid]

The CS when they were working on their original magic squads was researching types of magics they found "acceptable" enough or at least not actively distasteful. While temporal raiders are evil beings temporal magic itself is not a particularly dark art and is even practiced by paradox shaman who are native to the area around the CS and the vanguard are said to have no particular ill will towards native american spell casters. So it is highly likely their research came via interactions with the paradox shaman rather than temporal raiders.


As for the rate of gain I tend to just chalk that up to a more recent OCC closer to the newer RUE standards I would expect if a newer version of the temporal wizard was made it probably would have spell gain rates more similar to the vanguard version.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I don't really have any issues with the cell structure. Its lack of upward connectedness makes it unlikely that someone in a lower cell can compromise the identities of the leaders if they're captured or turned. The risk of cells being orphaned is a small price to pay.

What bothers me is that a small group of people (the Vanguard org as a whole) split into even smaller groups (cells) has somehow developed a bunch of unique OCCs.

--flatline

Well given they were at one point part of the chi town military and were training and developing magic for use with the military and with the constraints their politics imposed upon their access to magic I would guess most of the vanguard OCC's were originally CS occ's that when they were officially disbanded were maintained by those who had practiced those arts.

The Translocator can learn temporal spells faster than a Temporal Wizard.

Ponder that for a moment.

--flatline

To pose a possible theory, the Temporal Wizard/Warrior are the only magic OCC's with an explict apprenticeship program given out, with years of service to a generally evil or selfish being the price for greater power. It could be it was always possible to learn temporal magic faster, but the temporal raiders had no interest in being as efficent as possible so they could drag out the servitude longer.

[kaid]

Also on a side note with the translocator OCC is from the way it is designed they seem made to dabble in a number of lesser known magic types so its unlikely the designer of the occ expected them to focus entirely on temporal magic to the exclusion of the other branches they also have access to so typically they would be expected to gain those powers much slower simply because thats not the only thing they focus on.

[Tor]

I think it's the Savant you're thinking of when it comes to dabbling in the other lesser known magic types, Translocator's pretty much just Temporal guys.

[SpiritInterface]

The cell system is not as rigid as describes on page 13, because later in the same book they describe teams coming together for specific missions then disbanding and the make up varying based on the mission at hand. then there are also the loners and sleepers that act either independently or come together for a special purpose the fade back into the wood work.

You need to think of the Vanguard being more like the IRA of the 1920s, 30s, and 40s, the Molly Maguires of the 1860s-1900s in the US, and the European underground/ resistance during WWII.

You and your mates did the jobs that you were given by your handler, and if you leader died you laid low and hoped that your handler would know how to contact the next inline.

The cell might be like Reservoir Dogs [a crew brought together by a handler for a specific job, where the crew might not know each other before the op] or it might be more like Oceans Eleven (Clooney version) where the crew is a bunch of friends.

[kaid]

I think it's the Savant you're thinking of when it comes to dabbling in the other lesser known magic types, Translocator's pretty much just Temporal guys.

Ah you might be right I get those two transposed in my head hehe.

[Tor]

Easy to do as they are both the best of the Vanguard.