Amulets, Talismans, and Scrolls

[HarleeKnight]

Okay, I found where to buy them, with no actual examples. I found how to make them... I think, again I can't find any examples. But how do they work? I know scrolls are one shot items. My confusion is with amulets and talismans. I assume you pump PPE into them and the spell goes off at the level it was made for. But what is the difference between them? If there isn't any, then why make the distinction?

[Library Ogre]

Highly variable.

The Talisman spell lets you preload three copies of a spell into a talisman, which can be released later. They can also be reloaded, and the talisman can be loaded as a PPE battery.

Amulets are frequently alchemical items, which are sort of uber-talismans... they have a set spell that they can cast x times per day. But there's also amulets made with mystic herbology, charms, etc.

[Bill]

No PPE is expended to activate talismans or amulets. The creator imbues them with the required PPE when casting Amulet or Talisman, or when recharging the latter. Amulets are continuous effects that usually grant a bonus to saves while talismans are essentially precast spells that a user can activate at will, and the popular PPE battery option. The rules do not specify that an action is required to activate a talisman, but I usually require one.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Okay, I found where to buy them, with no actual examples. I found how to make them... I think, again I can't find any examples. But how do they work? I know scrolls are one shot items. My confusion is with amulets and talismans. I assume you pump PPE into them and the spell goes off at the level it was made for. But what is the difference between them? If there isn't any, then why make the distinction?

Talisman and spell scrolls have the PPE required for the spells already in them. It is the intent of the user that sets the magic to working. Talisman can hold up to three charges.

Amulets (and charms), once made, are always on magic items. However, they need to be worn on the person, protecting the person wearing them. Some need to be worn so they can be seen by everyone.

Nether are related to TW magic items.

Now talking about descriptive text, both Talisman and amulets can take similar forms when talking about what people see with their eyes. Both might be broaches or a pendant or hair pin, rings, etc...

[eliakon]

If your talking about the ones from the spells
-Scroll one shot item, used to cast a spell at the power of the person who made the scroll. No PPE needed by the user, just read it and go.
-Talisman either a PPE battery, or a three shoot magic item. Can only be reloaded by the maker of the Talisman. No PPE needed by the user, just activate and go.
-Amulet an always on magic item, wearing this provides the effect (multiple copies do not stack). Again no PPE needed from the user always on.


Most magic items (other than TW, which is its own thing...) do not require a source of PPE, they provide it.

[HarleeKnight]

Where can I find examples of some, so that I may get an idea of what, if any, I might go looking for.

[drewkitty ~..~]

There are no canon examples of talisman, spell scrolls, or Amulets outside of the text in the spells. I am guessing that the PB writers figure there is nothing to be more said about them.

All other magic items that might use said spells in part of their creations deviate from the pure form that the spells create.

I only have one char that has used the talisman spell to make talisman to use. the following is a list of that char's talisman.


✦Stick of Chain Lighting(Tali) (L3) three bolts at 3d6 each 3 charges
✦stick of create wood (Tali) (L3) 100 lb. of soft wood-logs 3 charges
✦stick of ignite fire (Tali) (L3) 3 charges
✦stick of Bad Hair Day (Tali) (L4) perm,standard 3 charges
✦silver dagger of electrify (Tali) (L5)--1d6 & spell +5d6 3 charges
✦silver dagger of electrify (Tali) (L5)--1d6 & spell +5d6 3 charges

As you can see no fancy description.
(note: the bad hair day spell is one of my creation. It can be found in the fan created spell topic in the magic&psi forum.)

Amulets....except for making up a physical description for they look like, what the spell says they do is what they can do.


To answer the question "why stick talisman?"...would thieves look at them and covet them from just their looks? In a bad spot the char can just break them or throw them in a fire to destroy them. There are more sticks in the world then golden scepters or gem encrusted wands.

[Bill]

I do know of one talisman outside of the spell descriptions; the Splugorth Armor Talisman from the Altara Warrior Woman write-up. It's also special because it deviates from the standard Talisman description in that it recharges itself every 24 hours. How and why it differs from other talismans is not revealed. The Rifts Book of Magic actually describes it as a TW device, but it still does not require any PPE from the user. It's priced at 10 million credits.

If you're trying to gauge how much these things should be worth, I use the scroll prices from Palladium Fantasy as a guide. A talisman that will allow a person to cast a spell three times will be worth at least three times as much as the equivalent scroll. I convert the cost strait across because they become prohibitively expensive if you try to work out how much the exchange rate from gold to credits ought to be and it's closer to how the cost to be trained in a spell converts across the two settings.

Levels 1-2: 800-1200 gold each Levels 3-5: 2000-2500 gold each; note that armor of Ithan, shadow meld, escape, and eyes of Thoth will always sell for top dollar (3000 gold) and by as much as 10-50% more.
Levels 6-7: 3000-4000 gold each; sometimes 10-50% more.
Levels 8-9: 5000-7000 gold each; sometimes 20-50% more.
Levels 10-12: 10,000-15,000 gold each; sometimes 20-50% more.
Levels 13-15: 20,000-30,000 gold each; sometimes 30-100% more.
Spells of Legend: 50,000-100,000 gold each. Rarely available and can cost two or three times the list price depending on the situation, the buyer and the seller.

[Tor]

I always figured Taliamans to be 1-action activation no matter what spell (although they were limited to low-level so mostly fell in the low-tier range anyway) but have never been too clear on Scrolls.

Do scrolls now fast-cast in 1-3 actions in RUE like normal spells do? Or would they still go by the old RMB speeds?

Plus... is it possible to silent-cast a scroll by just reading it rather than orating what one reads per Underseas?

[Mack]

Page 61 of Arzno has a shop that sells Amulets, Scrolls, etc, including some recommend prices.

[Bill]

I always figured Taliamans to be 1-action activation no matter what spell (although they were limited to low-level so mostly fell in the low-tier range anyway) but have never been too clear on Scrolls.

Do scrolls now fast-cast in 1-3 actions in RUE like normal spells do? Or would they still go by the old RMB speeds?

Plus... is it possible to silent-cast a scroll by just reading it rather than orating what one reads per Underseas?

I'm fairly sure that most sources indicate you've got to read them aloud. I'd let them cast as a single action regardless of level. It seems like there should at least be some benefit to preparing the spell in advance, and the description from Mysteries of Magic indicates that reading them for more than three seconds ruins them even if they're not cast.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I always figured Taliamans to be 1-action activation no matter what spell (although they were limited to low-level so mostly fell in the low-tier range anyway) but have never been too clear on Scrolls.

Do scrolls now fast-cast in 1-3 actions in RUE like normal spells do? Or would they still go by the old RMB speeds?

Plus... is it possible to silent-cast a scroll by just reading it rather than orating what one reads per Underseas?

I'm fairly sure that most sources indicate you've got to read them aloud. I'd let them cast as a single action regardless of level. It seems like there should at least be some benefit to preparing the spell in advance, and the description from Mysteries of Magic indicates that reading them for more than three seconds ruins them even if they're not cast.

There is canon text that says that you have to read them aloud and that even reading them silently will activate them.
For the most part I look at it as reading them aloud activates them because that is what the spell descriptive text says activates them. The MoM writer should of coordinated his text to reflect what was already canon. Besides that the MoM1 text only applies to the rifts setting if an individual GM imports it to her or his game.

[Kagashi]

Page 61 of Arzno has a shop that sells Amulets, Scrolls, etc, including some recommend prices.

Additionally, the Black Vault has Charm Gems (which work like TW items) and magic potions which are related to Amulets, Talismans and Scrolls along with their values.

[Virilitas]

The main discouragement to buying talisman is that only their creator can recharge the ppe in the battery or reload the spells that have been cast.

[Bill]

True. However, if one considers them to be very fancy hand grenades, they're pretty keen.

[flatline]

True. However, if one considers them to be very fancy hand grenades, they're pretty keen.

I used to produce lots of Talismans and I never worried about recharging them if I gave them to someone else. If the Talisman came back for me to recharge, that's great, but I generally assumed that I'd never see it again.

They were disposable.

--flatline

[Library Ogre]

The main discouragement to buying talisman is that only their creator can recharge the ppe in the battery or reload the spells that have been cast.

Depends on your needs. If you need to be able to cast a certain spell a few times, then they're useful... a repeatable scroll that you don't have to read. But their cost should reflect their lack of utility once they've been spent.

[eliakon]

True. However, if one considers them to be very fancy hand grenades, they're pretty keen.

I used to produce lots of Talismans and I never worried about recharging them if I gave them to someone else. If the Talisman came back for me to recharge, that's great, but I generally assumed that I'd never see it again.

They were disposable.

--flatline

I think the comment was that they were looking at it from the person getting its view.
If I get an item that I cant recharge its not so great.....unless I just assume its a fancy hand grenade...

[Kagashi]

Unless its a Splugorth Talisman of Armor, which must use some different version of the ritual to produce something that recharges on its own. If so, why can't the Splugorth make other self regenerating Talismans with other spells? After all, you can do it with Mega Blades.

[eliakon]

Unless its a Splugorth Talisman of Armor, which must use some different version of the ritual to produce something that recharges on its own. If so, why can't the Splugorth make other self regenerating Talismans with other spells? After all, you can do it with Mega Blades.

They might just not have the incentive to do so. Just like they could do all sorts of things, but choose not to.
But if you could get a device that is useable three times a day...then its not really exactly a Talisman anymore.

THAT said, there are canon ways of doing this, so it is possible. The question really becomes then more of 'Does the GM want lots of items casting various spells level 1-8 daily in his game' and if the answer is yes, then how much should the market be charging for the privilege of doing so.

[Mlp7029]

The main discouragement to buying talisman is that only their creator can recharge the ppe in the battery or reload the spells that have been cast.

Scrolls of the Talisman spell particularly the PPE storage talisman have been very popular at my character's magic shop. My GM ruled that whomever uses the scroll is the talisman's creator.

[kaid]

Where can I find examples of some, so that I may get an idea of what, if any, I might go looking for.

Book of magic has a ton of good magic items of this nature of the various different sorts. Really the book of magic is one of the best palladium purchases I have ever made its one stop shopping for most of your magical needs from items to spells.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The RBoM magic items are mostly TW magic items with a smattering of 'other' magic item types.

For normal magic items the PF2 main book and the PF2 western empire books are the best sources.

[Tor]

Interesting the 'Shadow' LLW guy in DemonBusters in Rifts Mercs has a Talisman which renews daily, like one of those UWW types in one of the later dimension books.

[flatline]

I've always assumed that the "renews daily" Talismans were actually a product of Rune Magic and not a product of the Talisman invocation.

--flatline

[Tor]

Probably not THAT advanced, we have rules for it under the Smithy or whatever it was called UWW guys.

[Library Ogre]

I've always assumed that the "renews daily" Talismans were actually a product of Rune Magic and not a product of the Talisman invocation.

--flatline

Doesn't require rune magic; possible under Alchemy... PFRPG, pg. 253, under "Magic Rings, Bracelets, Charms and Medallions."

[Mlp7029]

Some places I found prices in the books. FYI - IMHO prices should be perhaps a factor of 10 lower than being listed for locations where the creator has safe access to a ley line or nexus to draw on. Remember a non-Ley Line Walker can 10 PPE per melee round on a leyline which turns into 10 per melee x 4 per min x 60 per hour = 2,400 PPE per hour.

Arzno page 61, Bottled Miracles: Prices are high, but so is demand, so the Demon­ Dragonmage is doing extremely well for himself. Amulets cost an average of 30,000-50,000 credits each, while scrolls cost an average of 10,000 credits for every level of the spell to be written on it (so a scroll to cast Armor of !than, a 3rd level spell, would cost 30,000 credits). Talismans cost triple the price of an equivalent scroll. The shop also sells magic spells up to level 7 at double the cost listed on page 190 of Rifts® Ultimate Edition.

Arzno page 90, Method #2: Find a practitioner of magic willing to channel some of his P.P.E. ...... from 30-50 credits per P.P.E. point if the mage is kind and generous, to 100-600 credits per P.P.E. point if greedy or mean. Just multiply by the PPE to create the item. FYI - At 2,400 PPE per hour noted above 2,400 x 30 = 72,000 credits per hour. It you could get 1,000 of work a year that's 7.2 million per year.

Rifts World Book 1 - Vampire Kingdoms page 64, The El Paso Magic Shop: See the Invisible amulet 150,000 credits, Turn the Dead amulet 60,000 credits, scrolls first thru third levels 1,000 credits per spell level plus 1,000 credits per level of strength, casting spells 2,000 credits per spell level plus as much as 100% difficulty fee

[flatline]

Yeah, prices are way too high unless you heavily restrict how many magic users have access to the spells (and then be totally thwarted by player characters that can arrange to start with said spells).

[Mlp7029]

Yeah, prices are way too high unless you heavily restrict how many magic users have access to the spells (and then be totally thwarted by player characters that can arrange to start with said spells).

i have given it a lot of thought and even with some steep taxes, rental costs for protected work space, etc. I can't see the price getting above a few credits per PPE point to make something. My GM pretty much figures what ever I dream up is the way of mass production of talismans, price per PPE, etc. is the way the world is at cost. He doubles, triples, etc the cost depending on location. My character's magic shops sell talismans, amulets, scrolls, etc. for ½ credit x PPE construction cost plus materials cost of the item if applicable in cities with safe access to a leyline, nexus or pyramid and 50 credits x PPE construction cost plus materials cost of the item if applicable everywhere else. Prices subject to negotiation of course with steep discounts away from ley lines, etc. for large orders or innocents in need.

[Library Ogre]

Yeah, prices are way too high unless you heavily restrict how many magic users have access to the spells (and then be totally thwarted by player characters that can arrange to start with said spells).

i have given it a lot of thought and even with some steep taxes, rental costs for protected work space, etc. I can't see the price getting above a few credits per PPE point to make something. My GM pretty much figures what ever I dream up is the way of mass production of talismans, price per PPE, etc. is the way the world is at cost. He doubles, triples, etc the cost depending on location. My character's magic shops sell talismans, amulets, scrolls, etc. for ½ credit x PPE construction cost plus materials cost of the item if applicable in cities with safe access to a leyline, nexus or pyramid and 50 credits x PPE construction cost plus materials cost of the item if applicable everywhere else. Prices subject to negotiation of course with steep discounts away from ley lines, etc. for large orders or innocents in need.

I've long judged healing and such on a cost-per-PPE/ISP basis. I think I specifically mentioned it in Rifts: Houstown.