Brodkill

[HarleeKnight]

Where are the stats for a PC Brodkill? I found them for NPC, but it has no progression of stats per level.
Also, it states that they lose their ability to turn invisible at will if they get bionics, but that seems to be their mission. So how much can they get before they lose it?

[Tor]

By stats per level do you mean MDC increases or something? Since attributes pretty much stay the same unless you get a skill boost. Are you going by a sourcebook 1 NPC template? NGRp220 has listed both a static 'typical attributes' then a 'player character attributes' for the dice to roll. Dice are given for PPE while their 'main body' MDC is static.

Siege on Tolkeen 1 (Sedition) page 141 changes this up. The main body MDC changes from 250 to a dice roll that gives a range of 142 to 252 (based on base PE attribute, since it is not incorporated) so on average this is a nerf. It gives some useful called shot locations too, although sometimes that's an impediment since it encourages called shots to be made on you whereas people without called shot locations (like the original RMB armors pre-RUE, and probably some other non-pdated stuff) the GM might avoid making called shots to avoid the hassle of figuring out how much MDC the location should have.

Aside from the MDC issue, the Brodkil's PC attributes listing was also changed. The only attributed untouched was the PB. Everything else, the general pattern is basically fewer dice rolls and higher bonuses, leading to higher minimums/averages but a slightly lower maximum.

Alignment also received a shift. Previously 'selfish or evil' allowed Unprincipled but now it says 'Anarchist or Evil' so that may be out.

Bonuses from WP skills should apply as the character levels up. All their RCC bonuses are before considering WP or PP or Hand to Hand skill, so they can end up pretty strong powerhouses in combat.

As for invisibility, the phrase "they can benefit from bionic weapons and implants without ill effect other than losing the ability to turn invisibile" is pretty vague. Since it is worded plurally you might argue that a single implant wouldn't take it away but that 2 would. I suspect I may have read a rule about this somewhere and then forgot it...

If anyone can locate any Brodkil NPCs they might serve as a guideline to min/max implants.

[Kagashi]

Where are the stats for a PC Brodkill? I found them for NPC, but it has no progression of stats per level.

The most recent Brodkil stats are printed in Rifts Sourcebook 1: Revised pp 141-143. Similar to the SoT version described above. It provides level advancements for most. It also mentions that it is now available as PCs if the GM allows for it.

Also, it states that they lose their ability to turn invisible at will if they get bionics, but that seems to be their mission. So how much can they get before they lose it?

As for invisibility, the phrase "they can benefit from bionic weapons and implants without ill effect other than losing the ability to turn invisibile" is pretty vague. Since it is worded plurally you might argue that a single implant wouldn't take it away but that 2 would. I suspect I may have read a rule about this somewhere and then forgot it...

I read the word "implants" to be a general word encompassing the idea that it can receive weapons and/or implants, but just as how bionics of any kind interfere with psionics, so would the power of invisibility for the Brodkil. So I personally say, ANY weapon or implant negates the invisibility aspect.

As far as locations, I simply use the locations listed under the Headhunter OCC in RUE pp 75-76 or Partial Cyborg OCC in the Bionics Sourcebook pp 72-73. Both are partial reconstruction borgs and are 90% the same. As long as you are sticking with one or the other, you should be fine.

It really gets down to how you want to play the character. Do you want a character whom is naturally stronger than bionics and can use its natural abilities for espionage, sabotage, and intelligence gathering and still use TW weapons? Or do you want to make an MDC super soldier with the option to take crazy implants, mini missile launchers, Combat Computer, Advanced Hearing, and Medium Cyborg armor with 310 MDC?

Personally, Id keep him natural. If I wanted to make a borg of any kind, Id make a borg. Cause if you are going to go in that direction, go big. If you go small...you still lose the natural abilitiy to turn invisible.

[HarleeKnight]

Yes, I meant MDC per level. Thank you for those locations. As for the invisibility part, I was really just wondering. I plan to keep him natural. though we have fought a few and they were invisible and had artificial limbs. The GM probably didn't know, he's not the kind to screw us, just challenge us. I have a really good concept I just hope I can implement it. I mean, really, would you trust a Brodkill at first.

[Alrik Vas]

repentant brodkil that sends all his merc profits to an orphanage where the kids if his first victims live. just a cuddly demon.

[Library Ogre]

Rifter #46 had an article on Brodkil.

[Kagashi]

Nice article. Why can't it be official? Why does PB go out of its way to make it optional?

It doesnt contradict any previous canon, it adds to the original source material, and does not cause any catastrophic impacts to future world/source books.

[eliakon]

repentant brodkil that sends all his merc profits to an orphanage where the kids if his first victims live. just a cuddly demon.

I played a Brodkil Preacher in a game once.....

[Tor]

Given that it's a natural ability and there's a sorta-similar major super power in HU2, perhaps we could use the rules for how bionics affect super powers? Could also be useful for Psi-Ghosts.

[Library Ogre]

For those without the Rifter Article, I have it that any implants ruin the natural invisibility... which most brodkil don't mind, since they'll just bolt more armor directly onto themselves.

[HarleeKnight]

I was thinking about making him a Cyber-Knight. There's a whole back story as to the why of it, a nurture versus nature thing. The bionics question was for the armor they get. It would be the only bionics/cyber he would get and it doesn't seem to interfere with a knights abilities.

[Library Ogre]

I was thinking about making him a Cyber-Knight. There's a whole back story as to the why of it, a nurture versus nature thing. The bionics question was for the armor they get. It would be the only bionics/cyber he would get and it doesn't seem to interfere with a knights abilities.

That sounds neat, though I'd note that brodkil aren't psychic, so they have some problems as cyberknights.

[HarleeKnight]

I figure if Grackle Tooth and Quickflex can be Cyber-Knights, why not a Brodkill?

[glitterboy2098]

I was thinking about making him a Cyber-Knight. There's a whole back story as to the why of it, a nurture versus nature thing. The bionics question was for the armor they get. It would be the only bionics/cyber he would get and it doesn't seem to interfere with a knights abilities.

That sounds neat, though I'd note that brodkil aren't psychic, so they have some problems as cyberknights.

There are rules in SoT #4 for cyber knights that started with no psionics. They have some limits compared to normal cyber knights but are still decent ones.

[42dragon]

There are rules in SoT #4 for cyber knights that started with no psionics. They have some limits compared to normal cyber knights but are still decent ones.

But how does that work for races that have no psionic potential? This is easy for me to understand with humans or similar even if they didn't have any psionics to begin with at least they have the potential (as a race) and the psi-sword and psi-shield can be trained into them. But can a race that doesn't have psionic potential use this class rule (all) to get at least psi-sword and psi-shield?

I would vote no, a class ability wouldn't trump a racial restriction.

[Slight001]

I would vote no, a class ability wouldn't trump a racial restriction.

And Yet D'norr Devilmen and Quick-Flex Aliens neither of whom have any psionic capacity and one of whom doesn't even have magical capacity can be Cyber-Knights. In fact 9% of all cyber-knights are Quick-Flex Aliens while D'norr Devilmen account for 5%... right there we have 14% of the CK population running around and kicking bum without psionic abilities other then their class granted psi-swords and psi-shields.

To further reinforce this point we have on page 64 of SoT4, Sir Kensington a Yeno, a race incapable of psionics and/or magic, his description specifies that he is a skilled Psi-Swordsman. If he was incapable of manifesting a psi-sword then he couldn't have earned such a title.

[flatline]

I would vote no, a class ability wouldn't trump a racial restriction.

I agree.

Shame on the Authors for making NPCs that have psi-swords but whose race in incapable of psionic abilities.

--flatline

[eliakon]

I guess that Cyber Knights are just special snowflakes....
My compromise would be that you can learn Psi-Sword, and ONLY Psi-Sword. (I will leave the how up to the readers discretion I figure it has lots of techno-babble about inner enlightenment and tapping the cosmic all) Presto Yeno Ps-Swordsman. He has a Psi-Sword, but he still has an ISP of 0 (good thing that's all his sword costs huh ).

[Kagashi]

RUE p. 64. Non-Psychic Cyber Knights: ISP ME +1D4 / level. Psi Sword, Psi Shield and Meditation.

Its pretty clear that non-psychic CKs can still learn basic psi abilities though the rigorous training.

Which brings up the point...is a sub-demon who is too lazy to learn most skills going to be able to 1) even be accepted to receive training or 2) capable of even maintaining enough focus? Does this character break the mold of his racial restrictions to be Anarchist or evil alignment? Is the CK academy even going to let that happen?

There are canon references to exceptions to typical alignments, like the bio-wizard side effect that reverses alignment (selfish becomes selfless, good becomes evil, and so on). Perhaps this sub-demon was subject to this treatment and escaped the Splugorth.

[Mack]

I'd phrase it this way: The Cyber-Knight's abilities (Psi-Sword, etc) are not 'normal' psionics and are not always restricted by racial limitations.

[glitterboy2098]

considering the CS can create psi-nullifiers, bursters, and the like from minor psychics using intense training.. being able to take a non-psychic and give them a degree of psychic ability isn't too weird.

i suspect that like magic, all races have the potential to be psychic, just not all of them have it as common enough trait to get a mention in the racial stat blocks.

[eliakon]

RUE p. 64. Non-Psychic Cyber Knights: ISP ME +1D4 / level. Psi Sword, Psi Shield and Meditation.

Its pretty clear that non-psychic CKs can still learn basic psi abilities though the rigorous training.

Which brings up the point...is a sub-demon who is too lazy to learn most skills going to be able to 1) even be accepted to receive training or 2) capable of even maintaining enough focus? Does this character break the mold of his racial restrictions to be Anarchist or evil alignment? Is the CK academy even going to let that happen?

There are canon references to exceptions to typical alignments, like the bio-wizard side effect that reverses alignment (selfish becomes selfless, good becomes evil, and so on). Perhaps this sub-demon was subject to this treatment and escaped the Splugorth.

Note that it is typical alignments. Very few races are LOCKED in a limited alignment role.

[Library Ogre]

Of course, of the races most likely to be locked into a particular alignment, I'd go with "anything classified a demon" as being pretty high on the list.

[eliakon]

Of course, of the races most likely to be locked into a particular alignment, I'd go with "anything classified a demon" as being pretty high on the list.

True, but as far as I know only a tiny hand full of things actually say 'must be X alignment' Which means that everything else can have individuals that are different with out having to resort to explanations like mind control....though if you must have an explanation its pretty easy.
Fail an insanity check (there are a TON of things that can cause insanity) Pick up 'Reborn (1-10% on random insanity)' Presto, your now good.

[Nekira Sudacne]

RUE p. 64. Non-Psychic Cyber Knights: ISP ME +1D4 / level. Psi Sword, Psi Shield and Meditation.

Its pretty clear that non-psychic CKs can still learn basic psi abilities though the rigorous training.

Which brings up the point...is a sub-demon who is too lazy to learn most skills going to be able to 1) even be accepted to receive training or 2) capable of even maintaining enough focus? Does this character break the mold of his racial restrictions to be Anarchist or evil alignment? Is the CK academy even going to let that happen?

There are canon references to exceptions to typical alignments, like the bio-wizard side effect that reverses alignment (selfish becomes selfless, good becomes evil, and so on). Perhaps this sub-demon was subject to this treatment and escaped the Splugorth.

Note that it is typical alignments. Very few races are LOCKED in a limited alignment role.

Brodkil are not a race, they are a sub-demon. they do not reporduce, each one simply reincarnates in hell when they die. and their alignments are either anarchist or evil

[glitterboy2098]

1. that has never been said in the books. they are indeed called a sub-demon, but no mention of discorporation exists.

2. Gargoyles are "sub-demons" as well, and they most certainly DO reproduce (destroying their nests is a big part of the NGR's battleplans, to the point they built several specialized bots for it) , and they most certainly DO NOT discoprorate (otherwise the NGR could not use dead gargoyle bodies to make their computer-brain/living body infiltration bots)

[Nekira Sudacne]

1. that has never been said in the books. they are indeed called a sub-demon, but no mention of discorporation exists.

2. Gargoyles are "sub-demons" as well, and they most certainly DO reproduce (destroying their nests is a big part of the NGR's battleplans, to the point they built several specialized bots for it) , and they most certainly DO NOT discoprorate (otherwise the NGR could not use dead gargoyle bodies to make their computer-brain/living body infiltration bots)

Actually the rules are page 19-21 of Hades: Pits of Hell. it gives the respawn rules and times.

[eliakon]

Creatures do not discorporate on their native plane. The ones native to earth thus die, for good, when killed on earth, and leave bodies behind.

[Tor]

I believe that only apples to Hades Gargoyles, not necessarily to ones born outside of the dimension in places like the NGR or Atlantis, although the parents who laid their eggs might well have been Hades Gargoyles and it may be possible to naturalize them.

Also I think if an Earth-born gargoyle died on Wormwood they would not discorporate.

[Kagashi]

Of course, of the races most likely to be locked into a particular alignment, I'd go with "anything classified a demon" as being pretty high on the list.

True, but as far as I know only a tiny hand full of things actually say 'must be X alignment' Which means that everything else can have individuals that are different with out having to resort to explanations like mind control....though if you must have an explanation its pretty easy.
Fail an insanity check (there are a TON of things that can cause insanity) Pick up 'Reborn (1-10% on random insanity)' Presto, your now good.

SB1:R makes it pretty much a hard rule that they are restricted to those alignments. Granted, the SB1 version of Brodkil lists the alignment for NPCs specifically; that indicates that Player Characters can be the exceptions to the rule. The CK might still be a rare option.

1. that has never been said in the books. they are indeed called a sub-demon, but no mention of discorporation exists.

2. Gargoyles are "sub-demons" as well, and they most certainly DO reproduce (destroying their nests is a big part of the NGR's battleplans, to the point they built several specialized bots for it) , and they most certainly DO NOT discoprorate (otherwise the NGR could not use dead gargoyle bodies to make their computer-brain/living body infiltration bots)

Agreed 100%. It appears that Sub-Demons (Daemonix, Gargoyles, Brodkil, and Vyarnect are the four that I know of that are officially classified as such) exhibit a unique set of attributes that places them within the supernatural category, but not quite demon-kind. They are like a mix between an alien/d-bee and a category below demon-kind.

Sub-Demons appear to exhibit the following properties:
- Clearly Supernatural in origin (but so are elementals, dragons, and angels...none of which are demon-kind)
- Possess supernatural strength and endurance.
- Does not typically have any special supernatural special abilities, but may (Brodkil invisibility is one of the exceptions).
- May or may not possess the power to wield magic or psionics, but typically has higher than normal amounts of PPE (from a humanoid point of view).
- Clearly able to receive cybernetics, bionics, and even human enhancing implants like M.O.M. and even potentially certain Juicer treatments without their supernatural endurance rejecting the bio-ware.
- CAN be summoned and controlled by Summon Lesser Being and the Shifters OCC ability.

Basically, they are a different category than demons. They are in fact...below demons, hence the name Sub-Demon; they are not demon-kind. However they are something different than an MDC D-Bee too. They are something else. Its like trying to classify frogs as being either fish or reptiles, when in fact they are neither, they are amphibians.

This of course does not mean that the Demons of Hades do not use Sub-Demons like Gargoyles in their armies. They also use mortals, that does not mean those humans in the service the Demons of Hades discorperate simply because they are affiliated with the demon-kind faction of Demons. Sub-demons would be the same.

[Slight001]

Actually the rules are page 19-21 of Hades: Pits of Hell. it gives the respawn rules and times.

IIRC the author of said book has posted that when s/he wrote that section they had forgotten all about Gargoyle reproduction. Had they remembered they'd have not included the rules for Gargoyle reincarnation rates.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Actually the rules are page 19-21 of Hades: Pits of Hell. it gives the respawn rules and times.

IIRC the author of said book has posted that when s/he wrote that section they had forgotten all about Gargoyle reproduction. Had they remembered they'd have not included the rules for Gargoyle reincarnation rates.

Correct, he did, but I was talking about Brodkil, not gargoyles

[Fell]

In our Rifts game I had the party encounter a female Brodkil a few years ago (there may not be such a thing, but there is in my game). I always like Brodkil, wrote up a back story on them. Their home world and society ect. You know I did the whole spend hours of prep work and the party ended up going another direction and never went near the stuff I prep'd lol.

Anyway. Brodkil are my fav bad guys.

[Slight001]

Actually the rules are page 19-21 of Hades: Pits of Hell. it gives the respawn rules and times.

IIRC the author of said book has posted that when s/he wrote that section they had forgotten all about Gargoyle reproduction. Had they remembered they'd have not included the rules for Gargoyle reincarnation rates.

Correct, he did, but I was talking about Brodkil, not gargoyles

... alrighty then... ah well mistakes happen and I must have jumbled a few posts together within my mind.

[Library Ogre]

In our Rifts game I had the party encounter a female Brodkil a few years ago (there may not be such a thing, but there is in my game). I always like Brodkil, wrote up a back story on them. Their home world and society ect. You know I did the whole spend hours of prep work and the party ended up going another direction and never went near the stuff I prep'd lol.

Anyway. Brodkil are my fav bad guys.

The version in the Rifter, Brodkil are corpses of the dead, possessed by a demon. You have fewer female brodkil because there are fewer female combatants.

[Tor]

Actually the rules are page 19-21 of Hades: Pits of Hell. it gives the respawn rules and times.

IIRC the author of said book has posted that when s/he wrote that section they had forgotten all about Gargoyle reproduction. Had they remembered they'd have not included the rules for Gargoyle reincarnation rates.

Whatev, it's still in print and canon IMO. These aren't mutually exclusive things, being able to reproduce and being able to reincarnate do not interfere with one another, particularly since there's clear distinction in the books between the Hades guys and the NGR enemies.

[SolCannibal]

Actually the rules are page 19-21 of Hades: Pits of Hell. it gives the respawn rules and times.

IIRC the author of said book has posted that when s/he wrote that section they had forgotten all about Gargoyle reproduction. Had they remembered they'd have not included the rules for Gargoyle reincarnation rates.

Correct, he did, but I was talking about Brodkil, not gargoyles

And if gargoyle discorporating or respawning was a editing error, why would it apply to Brodkill, for whom such things are not even mentioned?

Let me get this Tor, so it's ok if it was put on print, even though the author itself says "that was a screw-up, a mistake, sorry" about a subject?

[glitterboy2098]

i think the point has been made that Sub-demons, especially the populations found on rifts earth, do not automatically have to have the traits of full demons from Hades.

so barring some official work in the future that says to the contrary, i think it is safe to assume that the brodkil in europe do not discorporate.

honestly, that makes a fair amount of sense, since if they did discorporate and reappear in some other dimension, that would suggest the bodies on earth are not 'real' in the sense of flesh and blood, which would make the addition of bionics somewhat tricky.

[Tor]

if gargoyle discorporating or respawning was a editing error, why would it apply to Brodkill, for whom such things are not even mentioned?

I would say that unless there is an indication that Brodkils are part of the Hades Demons and explicitly mentioned as respawning there upon death elsewhere, that I would not see a reason to assume they would. One can be a demon or sub-demon without being tied to Hades.

Let me get this Tor, so it's ok if it was put on print, even though the author itself says "that was a screw-up, a mistake, sorry" about a subject?

YUP

NGR's gargs spawning via eggs should not mean we should discard the DB10 idea of Hades-gargs respawning in other-dimensional battles.

It adds complexity to the species, it's fun, it helps explain the distinction between the two.

It might be that there is a mix of the two. Perhaps Gargoyles are not born in Hades respawning but this is something they might receive as a gift from their masters? Maybe doing so makes them infertile so they only opt for it after having procreated? Perhaps it is restricted to Lords/Mages who are more valuable to lose (and harder to control by Summoners) ?

[flatline]

Alternatively, perhaps the ability to respawn in Hades is a natural ability granted to any being born in Hades. Or perhaps instead of any being, any being of a particular set of races. Whatever makes the most sense to the GM, I suppose.

As such, gargs hatched on Rifts Earth would not respawn, but gargs from Hades would.

--flatline

[Tor]

Since similar things happen with Deevils dying, I'm not sure it's just an issue of being born there because we have the 'Deevil Host' and I get the impression they are not immortal and are not reborn if they die, at least not until they get 'promoted'.

It's also interesting to look at the normal Harpy versus the Dire Harpy for what one might look like before or after enhancement.

Perhaps we need to invent a 'Dire Gargoyle'? The 'Demongoyle' in Between the Shadows might fit the bill for the Gurgoyle.

[Kagashi]

Alternatively, perhaps the ability to respawn in Hades is a natural ability granted to any being born in Hades. Or perhaps instead of any being, any being of a particular set of races. Whatever makes the most sense to the GM, I suppose.

As such, gargs hatched on Rifts Earth would not respawn, but gargs from Hades would.

--flatline

Yes, this is true with beings whom discorperate. If killed in the native dimension, they are flat out dead. Thats why in the note in Dimensional Outbreak page 114, Star Slayer Demons specifically would die in the 3 Galaxies but gain the ability if they traveled to a different dimension.

I still dont think that Sub-Demons exhibit this behavior though. Certainly not the mortals whom were born and serve the Demons of Hades in that dimension.

[eliakon]

Alternatively, perhaps the ability to respawn in Hades is a natural ability granted to any being born in Hades. Or perhaps instead of any being, any being of a particular set of races. Whatever makes the most sense to the GM, I suppose.

As such, gargs hatched on Rifts Earth would not respawn, but gargs from Hades would.

--flatline

Yes, this is true with beings whom discorperate. If killed in the native dimension, they are flat out dead. Thats why in the note in Dimensional Outbreak page 114, Star Slayer Demons specifically would die in the 3 Galaxies but gain the ability if they traveled to a different dimension.

I still dont think that Sub-Demons exhibit this behavior though. Certainly not the mortals whom were born and serve the Demons of Hades in that dimension.

So if the Gargoyles of Europe are native to earth....then dying here would mean they would
1) die the true death
2) not discorporate
We then note that the Gargoyles are native to earth (that is where they are hatching them, other than a few immigrants. Immigrants whose numbers are not deemed sufficient to keep the Empire running if the hatcheries fall......)
And we can now have our discorporating gargoyle cake AND eat it on rifts too.

[Kagashi]

If Sub-Demons discorporate, yes.

If Razvan, the Romanian born Gargoyle dies in the Rifts Earth dimension, he would indeed flat out die.

Meanwhile, Fritz the shifter summons G'razell, native to Hades. G'razell then dies, and discorporates and is born again in Hades.

Likewise, prior to dying on the front lines in Germany, Razvan could have been summoned by T-mal, the Skaa Summoner in Phase World...fights and dies in the Three Galaxies dimension...then discorporates back in Romania on Rifts Earth, grows back up, then dies the true death in Germany later. Makes more sense as to why the Gargoyles of Rifts Earth would embrace technology for additional protection and offensive firepower as opposed to those whom are from Hades.

Makes fighting the Minion War in dimensions other than the native dimensions of Hades and Dyval pretty stupid really. Each side should be launching massive assaults into the respective enemy dimension. Every time they kill an enemy in their native dimension, they die for good, where as you as the assault force dies in their dimension, you get to put another quarter in the machine.

Of course, if Sub-Demons discorporate.

[Tor]

If a Star-Slayer demon discorporates dying outside the 3 Galaxies dimension then are they reborn in Hades or reborn in 3 Galaxies?

[eliakon]

If a Star-Slayer demon discorporates dying outside the 3 Galaxies dimension then are they reborn in Hades or reborn in 3 Galaxies?

They are reborn in their native dimension.

[Kagashi]

If a Star-Slayer demon discorporates dying outside the 3 Galaxies dimension then are they reborn in Hades or reborn in 3 Galaxies?

They are reborn in their native dimension.

Which is Three Galaxies.

[SolCannibal]

If a Star-Slayer demon discorporates dying outside the 3 Galaxies dimension then are they reborn in Hades or reborn in 3 Galaxies?

They are reborn in their native dimension.

Which is Three Galaxies.

Which the Tree Galaxies are part of, more precisely. A Star-Slayer demon could end up reforming in some other galaxy or spot of space in the same dimension/universe, though most probably where a demon planet can be found, if memory tricks me not.

[Kagashi]

If a Star-Slayer demon discorporates dying outside the 3 Galaxies dimension then are they reborn in Hades or reborn in 3 Galaxies?

They are reborn in their native dimension.

Which is Three Galaxies.

Which the Tree Galaxies is part of, more precisely. A Star-Slayer demon could end up reforming in some other galaxy or spot of space in the same dimension, though mosy probably where a demon planet can be found, if memory tricks me not.

Correct, it goes by dimension, not physical location within the dimension.

[Tor]

Stay-Slayers being reborn in 3 Galaxies' raises an interesting question about Death Demons...

Are they reborn in the dimension where they are first infected? Or where they first succumb to the infection and undergo the final transformation?

Another issue: regarding Death Knights. We know explicitly that they are created on the Demon Planet in the 3 Galaxies, not in Hades... yet I thought it mentioned they might be reborn in Hades if they died, so how would that work?