Changing nature of the boom gun blast

[Tor]

In RMB it says the boom gun cannot fire bursts (or sprays) but then in the conversion book it refers to the boom gun as firing bursts and mentions that it uses burst bonuses. Of course, with the special strike bonus, it bumps up to be the equiv of an aimed shot anyway.

How does everyone like to treat it? I like the idea of it being a "burst" of 200 flechettes although it is loaded 1 "round" of 200 flechettes and only separates into a 'burst' when fired.

Although the downside is that you get fewer strike bonuses, the upside is that single bullets can be parried while bursts cannot be parried. Formerly a downside is no called shots although I'm not sure if you can called-shot with bursts as of RUE.

[dragonfett]

I have always treated it as if it were only capable of firing one round at a time.

[flatline]

I think RUE allows called shots with bursts. They just can't be aimed and called shots.

--flatline

[drewkitty ~..~]

The RCB text is not saying that the boom gun shoots out bursts, all it is saying is what is says. To use one bonus instead of the other.

As for the reasons for the single shot limitation:
● I see the need allow for the recoil suppression system to cycle between engaging it.
● Then need to charge the weapon's capacitors.

As for the Idea of a Rail gun that shoots out a massive burst that was built from a Boom Gun frame: The player would need to get with the GM to about the particulars about how the char builds it and to make the construction rolls. So the GM can determine if there are any flaws built into the char's creation.

As for how I would detail how such a railgun would to have 5 individual firing tracks that were linked to fire in tandem and each firing 10-20 rounds each.

The problems I can see with this set up:
● damage to one track will cause the others to be disabled also.
● forgetting to recalibrate the recoil suppression system, ending up with the GB PA on it's face.
● having 5 loading mechanisms bump up the failure rate by five fold (x5) at that failure point.
● costing more then just linking up 5 normal rails guns.
● cooling problems that limit the railgun's RoF.
● structural fatigue or miscalculations that cause the firing of the weapons to cause wear/shred the end of the weapon's barrels.

[Starmage21]

The boom gun works like a long range sniper shotgun. One shell is fired, and 200? Little slivers of metal come flying out to shred bad guys to spaghetti sauce

[Tor]

The RCB text is not saying that the boom gun shoots out bursts, all it is saying is what is says. To use one bonus instead of the other.

Sorry I should have provided some quotes, was in a rush to let someone else use the comp:

7. The subsequent blasts after the first burst from a Glitter Boy's boom gun..
If the Glitter Boy is secured by a properly engaged recoil suppression system, the boom gun fires like a normal burst weapon.

The bolding is my own for emphasis.

If the Glitter Boy has activated the recoil suppression system, which engages in an instant, and is thus properly secured, he can fire one accurate and devastating burst after another (+1 to strike for an aimed burst and an additional + 2 boom gun bonus)

Also worth noting that when the Boomgun was printed for the Triax version of the Glitter Boy in WB5, that whole 'can not fire bursts' statement is no longer adjacent to the rate of fire. Perhaps it was removed because KS changed his mind and in Conversion Book rewrote the BG as a bursting weapon?

I think possible 'burst' has a broader definition and usage in some places in Rifts, like how a missile volley was also referred to as a burst.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Yep, and taking in account how the BG works the meaning of burst changes. Since the closest thing to what a BG is are shotguns and artillery loaded with grape or canister shot. It follows that the BG follows the same meaning of burst as those burst weapons.

Yes, this is not the same meaning of bust as with what it means when saying burst firing an automatic weapon.

Rate of Fire: Equal to number of combined hand to hand attacks of the pilot and his power armor (usually 4-6, seePower Armor Training). Bursts and sprays are not possible!

I copied the quoted text verbatim. Underlining only where it was underlined. I did not add any '!" ether.

So the meaning, the Intent, was made clear from the beginning. Boom Guns fire single shots.

Rate of Fire: Each booming blast counts as one melee attack/action.
Bursts and sprays are not possible!

Again, copied verbatim.
The intent is S.P.E.L.L.E.D....O.U.T. clear as can be.

So...NO! boom guns CANNOT Burst Fire. Taking a poorly worded text that conflicts with the clearly stated rate of fire in both of the Rifts core books to be the 'core canon text', does not not something a canon stickler would push for. To get a Glitterboy main weapon that does bursts you need to look in SA2 & FQ. And those are not Boomguns.

And to change the nature of the BG's blast changes the railgun into "Not A BoomGun".

[Tor]

The clearly worded text of the core rule book was removed in the Triax Boom Gun, I see its inclusion in silver/RUE as a mistake. We know other examples of leftover mistakes that conflict with other stuff, right?

Please don't bring the Glitter Girl's gatling into this, I'm talking about the Triax version, which is basically the same except for a slower firing speed. Manages the same range and damage.

The conversion book's calling it a burst 4 times and going out of it's way to specify explicitly that the boom gun gets a +1 to strike due to being a burst, rather than a +3 for an aimed single shot, makes it pretty clear that it was changed to be a burst.

Kev probably forgot he made this change by the time it came to print silver/RUE and forgot to remove the 'no burst' like he did in World book 5.

Basically here is how I think it makes sense: the BG cannot burst the Flechette-round, but it does burst the 200 slugs within that round when it is fired and the round explodes out of the gun. The instability caused by the round's explosion makes it as inaccurate as a burst. It's a bursty former-singular shot. 1 flechette-containing round at a time, 200 flechettes/slugs at a time.

This isn't merely a case of someone writing 'burst' instead of 'blast' to shrug off, the +1 instead of +3 was explicitly supporting it being a burst.

[Killer Cyborg]

This isn't merely a case of someone writing 'burst' instead of 'blast' to shrug off, the +1 instead of +3 was explicitly supporting it being a burst.

Agreed. The strike bonus there indicates that CB1 actually did mean "burst" when they wrote it.

[drewkitty ~..~]

If you had taken in account that the canon RoF for the BG is, it would of meant what it was suppose to mean. That if the recoil suppression system had not been fully deployed, that after the first firing of the boomgun, that any other firing in succession would be counted as firing wild.
Of Course it is very hard to be firing strait when being thrown back 30 feet and knocked down with the 1st firing w/o the recoil suppression system.

Maybe whoever wrote that passage for RCB1 did not review the RoF for the boomgun and made the mistake of using the wrong words to reflect that the Boomgun only shoot single shots.
[aside]It did not help that they Copy & Pasted the Shooting Wild section of the RCB1r from RCB1.[/aside]

You also should of presented the text you were referring to as coming from the Shooting Wild text. (for the lazy people or those w/o the RCB1.)

Again, some text can not be taken standing alone from other text that covers the same subject.
In this case, Taking it's standing alone text meanings without taking in that other text can change the meanings of the ideas trying to be presented.

[Blue_Lion]

I think RUE allows called shots with bursts. They just can't be aimed and called shots.

--flatline

I was under the impression a weapon had to be able to do a aimed shot to do a called shot.

[Tor]

If you had taken in account that the canon RoF for the BG is, it would of meant what it was suppose to mean. That if the recoil suppression system had not been fully deployed, that after the first firing of the boomgun, that any other firing in succession would be counted as firing wild.

This was taken into the account. The +1 bonus for firing a burst is if the suppression system is working. It would otherwise be a wild shot (no +1 from burst or +2 from boom gun, no bonuses, no penalties) if it were not in place.

Maybe whoever wrote that passage for RCB1 did not review the RoF for the boomgun and made the mistake of using the wrong words to reflect that the Boomgun only shoot single shots.

Kevin Siembieda is listed as the only writer for the Conversion Book.

You also should of presented the text you were referring to as coming from the Shooting Wild text. (for the lazy people or those w/o the RCB1.)

"page 9: Shooting Wild wrote:"

Plus the note is actually not about a wild shot. The 'first burst' is not wild, the ones after are wild if not secured. Subsequent bursts are not wild if secured.

Again, some text can not be taken standing alone from other text that covers the same subject.
In this case, Taking it's standing alone text meanings without taking in that other text can change the meanings of the ideas trying to be presented.

That's not the case here, feel free to add in what you think changes this though.

I was under the impression a weapon had to be able to do a aimed shot to do a called shot.

Me too, however phrases like "aimed burst" have occurred so the water is muddy.

[everloss]

Did Ultimate Edition come out after Conversion Book 1? I'm pretty sure it did, as I bought CB1 back in the mid-90s.

If Ultimate Edition says the Boom Gun is incapable of firing bursts, then there is your canon answer.

[Tor]

If something from RMB that was changed in Conversion Book and NGR and the Revised Conversion Book (page 20) was unchanged in RUE, the likely explanation is they forgot to update it, not that Kev decided to change it back. Is RUE bereft of other leftover material that was changed?

Another possibility: if Boom Guns operate like any burst weapon (a statement never contradicted) and it can't fire bursts, then it can't fire at all

[everloss]

Alright. sigh.

RMB pg 223 "Bursts and Sprays are not possible!" Both my copies of RMB were printed after CB1 (1994 and 1999, respectively). Does not support your conclusion.

Triax pg 46 "Rate of Fire: Equal to the number of combined hand to hand attacks of the pilot and his power armor (usually 4-6)" Which is exactly the same as the description of the Boom Gun from RMB and every other book it is described, without the sentence that follows. No mention of firing bursts at all. Also of note, Triax was printed a year after the Conversion Book.

Japan pg 137 "Bursts and sprays are not possible!" Japan was printed 2 years after CB1.

Free Quebec pg 83 "Bursts and sprays are not possible!" The Triax Glitterboy description is reprinted verbatim from WB5, and once again, says absolutely nothing about being able to fire bursts. Also, printed 7 years after CB1.

RUE pg 72 "Bursts and sprays are not possible!" See a pattern yet?

CB1 pg 15 uses the terms "blast" and "burst" interchangeably, most likely due to the writer/editor not realizing it would cause arguments in the future. In CB1 revised, it uses both terms interchangeably within the same sentence. If anything, it is saying that a single shot from a Boom Gun is treated as a Burst for modifier purposes due to the massive recoil. It also mentions that if the recoil suppression system isn't engaged, the blast is considered a wild shot. It does not say it is a wild shot because it is spraying an area or for any other reason.

There is nothing canonically to support your conclusion, other than a strange interpretation of a single sentence, while you ignore every single instance that contradicts that interpretation in every work previous or after. In other words, congratulations! You have a house rule!

[Tor]

Your RMB being printed after CB1 does not disprove anything about this theory. RUE was probably based on one of the last printings of RMB so obviously if something still wasn't updated to CB1/NGR standards by the time of RUE it would not have been corrected in later printings of RMB either.

The Triax description had the 'cannot fire bursts' text taken out. As for the 'equal to number of hand': what do you think it says under the SAMAS?

Japan and FQ appear to be similar to RUE where he copy-pasted the RMB text without taking into account the CB1 change like NGR did.

CB1 is not a case of burst/blast interchangeability, as proven by the explicit use of a +1 to strike from a burst instead of a single aimed shot. It talks about how it works like any other 'burst weapon'. As opposed to what, a 'blast weapon'?

It also mentions that if the recoil suppression system isn't engaged, the blast is considered a wild shot. It does not say it is a wild shot because it is spraying an area or for any other reason.

It mentions it's wild if fired after a burst without the system engaged...

But that if it IS engaged, subsequent bursts are as any other normal burst.

You added 'blast' in there yourself, LOL

Nothing canon? Try the 4 explicit quotes that say 'burst' and references to burst striking bonuses and burst weaponry. This is more than a single sentence.

I am not ignoring the contradictions, I am simply saying that I believe there is more evidence of the FQ/Japan/RUE reprints being mistakes due to copy-pasting while forgetting about the CB1/NGR rules change.

[drewkitty ~..~]

If you had taken in account that the canon RoF for the BG is, it would of meant what it was suppose to mean. That if the recoil suppression system had not been fully deployed, that after the first firing of the boomgun, that any other firing in succession would be counted as firing wild.

This was taken into the account. The +1 bonus for firing a burst is if the suppression system is working. It would otherwise be a wild shot (no +1 from burst or +2 from boom gun, no bonuses, no penalties) if it were not in place.

Maybe whoever wrote that passage for RCB1 did not review the RoF for the boomgun and made the mistake of using the wrong words to reflect that the Boomgun only shoot single shots.

Kevin Siembieda is listed as the only writer for the Conversion Book.

...snip...

Again, some text can not be taken standing alone from other text that covers the same subject.
In this case, Taking it's standing alone text meanings without taking in that other text can change the meanings of the ideas trying to be presented.

That's not the case here, feel free to add in what you think changes this though.

If you had been paying attention you would of realized I already did that. It was the fist thing I said in the post of mine you just quoted. And you even Quoted it.

If you had taken in account that the canon RoF for the BG is, it would of meant what it was suppose to mean. That if the recoil suppression system had not been fully deployed, that after the first firing of the boomgun, that any other firing in succession would be counted as firing wild.

And then you tried to twist the meaning of what I said by stating what idea you wanted to leave in people's minds.

No, the bonuses listed, taking everything into account means that Boomguns only get (under the old modern weapons rules) the burst bonus when they fire their single shots.

They fire Wildly for successive if the recoil suppression systems was not engaged for the 1st firing. This is very true cause the GB would be firing the BG after being knocked down and knocked back which with any other modern weapon the shooter would also be firing Wild.

Saying that Boomguns can fire bursts like machineguns is YOUR HOUSE RULE.
This idea that boomguns can burst fire like machineguns as canon has been throughly and fully discredited.

[Tor]

I don't think I said 'like machineguns'. Simply that this is not a case of 'this is a non-burst but use a burst bonus' (because it doesn't say that). It lists a burst bonus after repeatedly calling it a burst.

I'd say it works differently than a machinegun, which fires its burst in sequence over some period of time allowing stuff like sprays.

The GB's flechette burst is essentially all at once, it fires too quickly to do a spray like a machinegun. But because the shell is ejected from the gun and the 200 flechettes split off as they eject from the gun, this presumably destabilizes it to become a 'burst' even though functionall the -one round of 200 flechettes at a time' process makes it function similar to aimed shots.

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't think I said 'like machineguns'. Simply that this is not a case of 'this is a non-burst but use a burst bonus' (because it doesn't say that). It lists a burst bonus after repeatedly calling it a burst.

I'd say it works differently than a machinegun, which fires its burst in sequence over some period of time allowing stuff like sprays.

The GB's flechette burst is essentially all at once, it fires too quickly to do a spray like a machinegun. But because the shell is ejected from the gun and the 200 flechettes split off as they eject from the gun, this presumably destabilizes it to become a 'burst' even though functionall the -one round of 200 flechettes at a time' process makes it function similar to aimed shots.

That does indeed seem to be how the CB1 passages you are quoting treat the weapon.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The GB's flechette are fired all at once like a shotgun fire's it's shot all at once.
Not "essentially all at once" like a mini-gun. (Covered changing to this in my 1st post.)

In PB technical lexicon 'burst' means to fire off more then a single shot.

[Killer Cyborg]

The GB's flechette are fired all at once like a shotgun fire's it's shot all at once.
Not "essentially all at once" like a mini-gun. (Covered changing to this in my 1st post.)

In PB technical lexicon 'burst' means to fire off more then a single shot.

Correct.
Yet with CB1 talking about the Boom Gun, they refer to it as a burst, and they give it the strike bonus for bursts instead of the bonus for aimed shots..
Which indicates that at one point, they considered it's single blast to be a burst.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The GB's flechette are fired all at once like a shotgun fire's it's shot all at once.
Not "essentially all at once" like a mini-gun. (Covered changing to this in my 1st post.)

In PB technical lexicon 'burst' means to fire off more then a single shot.

Correct.
Yet with CB1 talking about the Boom Gun, they refer to it as a burst, and they give it the strike bonus for bursts instead of the bonus for aimed shots..
Which indicates that at one point, they considered it's single blast to be a burst.

Which is why I said the quoted section was poorly written and was not corrected when the section was moved to the RCB1r. Which is why there is an argument now.

That the Boomgun was used as an example for said section of text was poorly chosen. (note; critical reading is required for the next sentence) But I can understand that they might of been inundated with 'clarification requests' about the boomgun. Which led to the poorly written text.

[Killer Cyborg]

I wouldn't be able to judge whether or not it was poorly written unless I knew for a fact what they intended to say.
But not being a psychic, I'm content to wonder what the deal is.

[Tor]

The deal is that the first time I read the spell I did not know Deflection could work against an entire volley of missiles, which is pretty cool.