The Vanguard's trivial numbers

[flatline]

Over the years there have been several threads where the Vanguard is mentioned as some ultimate defender of the CS in whatever scenario is being talked about, so I finally decided to pick up the book to see what all the fuss was about.

Totally disappointed in the capabilities of the Vanguard. All the hype here in the forums is totally bunk.

There is only 1000-ish Vanguard members in the Burbs and "Another hundred or two" spread out across Kingsdale, Lazlo, New Lazlo, the FoM, and the Magic Zone. Even if they were totally awesome magic users, they are just too spread out to do anything large scale. But they're not all totally awesome magic users. 10% are LLW (which can be awesome) and the remaining 90% are magic specialists with limited spell selections and no special abilities of any real consequence. AND they're organized into cells where they typically only know half a dozen other Vanguard members which makes it extremely difficult to mobilize more than a handful Vanguard members on short notice.

They are, at best, a regional power (the Burbs) with a small number of operatives spread out over NA. Dangerous, perhaps, to any PCs who linger in the Burbs long enough to be noticed, but the only thing they can really do to interfere with larger operations is to pass information to the CS.

Some of the OCCs were kind of cool, but the spell lists were all pretty restrictive and even the Vanguard LLW is banned from learning spells related to summoning or controlling the supernatural (so no force multipliers!). The don't use techno-wizardry. Won't learn any non-vanilla spells (no Temporal Magic, etc) and have relatively low PPE reserves...which they can't safely supplement with Talisman since magic items would make them more vulnerable to detection by dogboys and stalkers patrolling the Burbs. To sum up, they're interesting, but limited spell casters who are denied most of the available tools that would otherwise help them deal with their limitations.

One thing I did especially like was that no pages were wasted on equipment that is trivially different from equipment published in other books.

Anyways, I liked the book, but the next time someone brings up the Vanguard as a foil to some plan being hatched in a thread, I'm going to laugh.

--flatline

[Tor]

10% are LLW (which can be awesome) and the remaining 90% are magic specialists with limited spell selections and no special abilities of any real consequence.

How closely did you look at the Savant and Translocator?

Let's also keep in mind there are also conjurers and (per Sot3 even though the subsequent sourcebook forgot about this) Techno-Wizards.

[flatline]

10% are LLW (which can be awesome) and the remaining 90% are magic specialists with limited spell selections and no special abilities of any real consequence.

How closely did you look at the Savant and Translocator?

They were the most interesting of the bunch, but I was still largely unimpressed.

Let's also keep in mind there are also conjurers and (per Sot3 even though the subsequent sourcebook forgot about this) Techno-Wizards.

p20: "They haven't decided what to make of Techno-Wizardry. They recognize it as "home grown," originating in North America and created by humans, but their reverence for true science and technology makes the study of Techno-Wizardry feel wrong."

It then goes on to say that they will use TW devices, but without techno-wizards, how will they get them? And how will having charged TW devices not give them away to patrolling dogboys in the Burbs? I am aware that uncharged TW devices to not register as magic, but if you leave it uncharged until you need it, then the TW device is competing with your spells for your PPE reserve during the engagement which defeats a large part of the advantage of having TW devices.

--flatline

[Library Ogre]

OTOH, how big of a power do they need to be? Their point isn't to do combined arms assaults that take out entire cities, but, IIRC, primarily to identify magical threats, and deal with ones that simply cannot be met with by overwhelming military force. Even when they meet magical threats, they don't necessarily act as lone-wolves of the Vanguard... they seek out other forces to help them.

They're not special forces. They're fixers. They can do some things on their own, but they neither are the spear, nor do they carry it... they point it, and that spear is the entire Coalition armed forces.

[Tor]

They were the most interesting of the bunch, but I was still largely unimpressed.

There are advantages to the spells they can select compared to a LLW though, worth noting.

p20: "They haven't decided what to make of Techno-Wizardry. They recognize it as "home grown," originating in North America and created by humans, but their reverence for true science and technology makes the study of Techno-Wizardry feel wrong."

Just because it feels wrong and they're still evaluating it doesn't mean they don't do it. It just means the TWs in the Vanguard have mixed feelings about it. Although the Vanguard sourcebook forgot to mention that there are TWs, Sot3 explicitly mentioned this on page 60 as the "weapons technicians, mechanics and heavy gunners of the Vanguard"

It then goes on to say that they will use TW devices, but without techno-wizards, how will they get them?

"Since the Vanguard is not especially large, its Techno-Wizards can actually provide everybody in the secret society with weapons"

"The inclusion of Techno-Wizards has always ensured that the Vanguard remains well armed"

how will having charged TW devices not give them away to patrolling dogboys in the Burbs?

There are some un-charged TW weapons which I don't think register until activated, like the flaming sword or lightning rod. These are often more efficient uses of PPE than some spells, depending on the situation, notable the cheap form of Impervious to Energy and multiple long-range attacks (however pitiful the damage) from the Lightning Rod. In close range it'd make more sense to use a flaming sword rather than multi-cast fire bolts (if you know it) because it's more PPE-efficient.

Another possibility might be if you could build that Mystic Invisibility spell from Merc Ops into a TW device to cloak magical auras.

Then you have that whole 'spam magic pigeon' tactic where there's so much magic flitting around that it's hard to target what's notable.

if you leave it uncharged until you need it, then the TW device is competing with your spells for your PPE reserve during the engagement which defeats a large part of the advantage of having TW devices.

Speed was an advantage back when SoT/Burbs were written since even low level spells took 2 actions and TW devices could still be presumably activated for 1. TW's speed advantage isn't really existent anymore as of RUE

One possibility would be psionics though. LLWs/Conjurers might roll random psionics, and all TWs/Mystics are psychics, so they could utilize their ISP to power TW devices rather than use their PPE, reducing the competition factor.

They're not special forces. They're fixers. They can do some things on their own, but they neither are the spear, nor do they carry it... they point it, and that spear is the entire Coalition armed forces.

One thing I always thought would be neat for them to do would be to sneak around CS front lines using Invisibility Superior and "vandalize" the armor by inscribing a lifeward on it.

That way any dead boys who lose their armor could survive MD for a while via their SDC temporarily turning into MDC for a few minutes

Of course... if they were working in teams then a fellow soldier might see the symbol and be all "GET IT OFF!" but maybe if it was a single soldier alone, or there was too much fog-of-war and conflict to page attention, maybe nobody would notice until it became useful?

[eliakon]

I have always figured that the Vanguard provide a lot of the 'mercenary mages' that the CS rangers/SF is willing to deal with. Possibly semi-officially under the counter. Sort of like the same relationship the CIA has with various criminal organizations (Iran-Contra anyone?)
Yes, its totally denyable
Yes, if its made public disavowal and death will result
But in the shadowy world of black ops....well its not like mercenaries are CS citizens anyway. And how was I to know that they had a mage. But hey, the targets dealt with right? No harm no foul.....

[kaid]

OTOH, how big of a power do they need to be? Their point isn't to do combined arms assaults that take out entire cities, but, IIRC, primarily to identify magical threats, and deal with ones that simply cannot be met with by overwhelming military force. Even when they meet magical threats, they don't necessarily act as lone-wolves of the Vanguard... they seek out other forces to help them.

They're not special forces. They're fixers. They can do some things on their own, but they neither are the spear, nor do they carry it... they point it, and that spear is the entire Coalition armed forces.

Pretty much this. And in a lot of ways they are the tripwire that gives the CS heads up on threats that would be under their radar or potentially difficult for a mundane non magic user to detect lurking around. The CS army and psi corps are more than strong enough to drop a hammer on anything they know about. The vanguards role is to give the CS coverage in what is currently a blind spot for them.

[flatline]

OTOH, how big of a power do they need to be? Their point isn't to do combined arms assaults that take out entire cities, but, IIRC, primarily to identify magical threats, and deal with ones that simply cannot be met with by overwhelming military force. Even when they meet magical threats, they don't necessarily act as lone-wolves of the Vanguard... they seek out other forces to help them.

They're not special forces. They're fixers. They can do some things on their own, but they neither are the spear, nor do they carry it... they point it, and that spear is the entire Coalition armed forces.

Pretty much this. And in a lot of ways they are the tripwire that gives the CS heads up on threats that would be under their radar or potentially difficult for a mundane non magic user to detect lurking around. The CS army and psi corps are more than strong enough to drop a hammer on anything they know about. The vanguards role is to give the CS coverage in what is currently a blind spot for them.

...in the Burbs or in one of the currently infiltrated known enemies of the CS. The Vanguard's reach doesn't extend any further than that.

So in threads where new threats and new enemies are being discussed, the Vanguard will be of no assistance unless the threat originates in the Burbs or tips its hand to an infiltrated enemy.

--flatline

[Satan Lord of Hell]

Yeah, as info gatherers and tip-off men, you mustn't underestimate that intelligence power. Also, just a few of them would be needed to give magic over-watch to protect key sites, resources, and officers.

I'm not saying they are over powered and can stop all threats, but for me explains why the coalition is able to present a decent counter-espionage front against magicians and magical beings which, just by virtue of what spells are actually good at doing, are really excellent at espionage.

[kaid]

Well they are predominantly located in the burbs but there are also vanguard in lazlo and other areas where magic users congregate working as spies. I would assume quite a few of them are working to infiltrate parts of the federation of magic as well.

[flatline]

Well they are predominantly located in the burbs but there are also vanguard in lazlo and other areas where magic users congregate working as spies. I would assume quite a few of them are working to infiltrate parts of the federation of magic as well.

Yes, to quote the original post:

"There is only 1000-ish Vanguard members in the Burbs and "Another hundred or two" spread out across Kingsdale, Lazlo, New Lazlo, the FoM, and the Magic Zone."

That's a lot of ground to cover for "another hundred or two" agents.

--flatline

[Bill]

Evidently, from the description in Firetown & the Tolkeen Crisis, The 'Burbs are a free for all where 1000 magic users could have a tea party; as long as they keep the noise down. The only thing I can figure is that Dog Pack patrols are infrequent and that people up the chain of command are selling information on where and when patrols do happen. Anybody connected and paid up will get plenty of notice on when to power down or clear out.

[FatherMorpheus]

Yeah, as info gatherers and tip-off men, you mustn't underestimate that intelligence power. Also, just a few of them would be needed to give magic over-watch to protect key sites, resources, and officers.

I'm not saying they are over powered and can stop all threats, but for me explains why the coalition is able to present a decent counter-espionage front against magicians and magical beings which, just by virtue of what spells are actually good at doing, are really excellent at espionage.

I would agree with this. With such limited numbers, they would actually go out of their way to avoid direct conflict. They could be very helpful by doing blind drops of information, and providing intelligence and counter-espionage for the CS. Even without the CS officially knowing about them, if they did it correctly they could provide all the information needed to take down threats to the CS.

I've always seen them as this type of force, rather than a direct action force. They work the shadows and expose real threats, letting other things slide.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Over the years there have been several threads where the Vanguard is mentioned as some ultimate defender of the CS in whatever scenario is being talked about, so I finally decided to pick up the book to see what all the fuss was about.

Totally disappointed in the capabilities of the Vanguard. All the hype here in the forums is totally bunk.

There is only 1000-ish Vanguard members in the Burbs and "Another hundred or two" spread out across Kingsdale, Lazlo, New Lazlo, the FoM, and the Magic Zone. Even if they were totally awesome magic users, they are just too spread out to do anything large scale. But they're not all totally awesome magic users. 10% are LLW (which can be awesome) and the remaining 90% are magic specialists with limited spell selections and no special abilities of any real consequence. AND they're organized into cells where they typically only know half a dozen other Vanguard members which makes it extremely difficult to mobilize more than a handful Vanguard members on short notice.

They are, at best, a regional power (the Burbs) with a small number of operatives spread out over NA. Dangerous, perhaps, to any PCs who linger in the Burbs long enough to be noticed, but the only thing they can really do to interfere with larger operations is to pass information to the CS.

Some of the OCCs were kind of cool, but the spell lists were all pretty restrictive and even the Vanguard LLW is banned from learning spells related to summoning or controlling the supernatural (so no force multipliers!). The don't use techno-wizardry. Won't learn any non-vanilla spells (no Temporal Magic, etc) and have relatively low PPE reserves...which they can't safely supplement with Talisman since magic items would make them more vulnerable to detection by dogboys and stalkers patrolling the Burbs. To sum up, they're interesting, but limited spell casters who are denied most of the available tools that would otherwise help them deal with their limitations.

One thing I did especially like was that no pages were wasted on equipment that is trivially different from equipment published in other books.

Anyways, I liked the book, but the next time someone brings up the Vanguard as a foil to some plan being hatched in a thread, I'm going to laugh.

--flatline

I could have sworn their numbers were bigger than that. oh well, 1000 is far better than nothing.

You are wrong that they can't learn temporal magic, the translocater specifically can starting at level 2.

[flatline]

I could have sworn their numbers were bigger than that. oh well, 1000 is far better than nothing.

You are wrong that they can't learn temporal magic, the translocater specifically can starting at level 2.

Thank you for pointing that out. It directly contradicts what was printed on page 20: "...Nor will they practice alien magic, eliminating Cloud Magic, Temporal Magic, Tatto Magic, Atlantean Stone Magic, Bio-Wizardry, Dolphin Magic, Nazca Line Magic and most foreign magicks (i.e. magic that originates in another country such as Russian Spoiling and Fire Magic or English Herbology or Australian Dream Time Magic)".

I wonder who the Translocator learns Temporal Spells from?

--flatline

[implementor]

In my games, I have Joseph Prosek II secretly supporting the Vanguard, it's too much of a resource to waste on minor ideological differences, especially to someone as pragmatic as JP II. So, they have secret support from almost the very top, and he gets the advantage of their information network. Means they get a lot of under-the-table support, as long as they are discreet and serve their purpose.

[eliakon]

I could have sworn their numbers were bigger than that. oh well, 1000 is far better than nothing.

You are wrong that they can't learn temporal magic, the translocater specifically can starting at level 2.

Thank you for pointing that out. It directly contradicts what was printed on page 20: "...Nor will they practice alien magic, eliminating Cloud Magic, Temporal Magic, Tatto Magic, Atlantean Stone Magic, Bio-Wizardry, Dolphin Magic, Nazca Line Magic and most foreign magicks (i.e. magic that originates in another country such as Russian Spoiling and Fire Magic or English Herbology or Australian Dream Time Magic)".

I wonder who the Translocator learns Temporal Spells from?

--flatline

Easy enough. They just don't take the Temporal OCCs, and most of their OCCs wont touch temporal magic....but the Translocator can, and does, learn a few spells of that art. (Or of course we could look for absolute total internal consistency from the game....)
(This, personally to me just confirms my opinion that many of the 'secret schools' of magic are secret simply to prevent their spells from falling into open use. Just as Time Slip is probably a Temporal Spell, and Animate Dead is a Necromancy Spell that just 'got lose in the wild' so to speak.)

[Blue_Lion]

In my games, I have Joseph Prosek II secretly supporting the Vanguard, it's too much of a resource to waste on minor ideological differences, especially to someone as pragmatic as JP II. So, they have secret support from almost the very top, and he gets the advantage of their information network. Means they get a lot of under-the-table support, as long as they are discreet and serve their purpose.

I do not know if I will call the use of magic a minor Ideological difference, for the CS.

[flatline]

I could have sworn their numbers were bigger than that. oh well, 1000 is far better than nothing.

You are wrong that they can't learn temporal magic, the translocater specifically can starting at level 2.

Thank you for pointing that out. It directly contradicts what was printed on page 20: "...Nor will they practice alien magic, eliminating Cloud Magic, Temporal Magic, Tatto Magic, Atlantean Stone Magic, Bio-Wizardry, Dolphin Magic, Nazca Line Magic and most foreign magicks (i.e. magic that originates in another country such as Russian Spoiling and Fire Magic or English Herbology or Australian Dream Time Magic)".

I wonder who the Translocator learns Temporal Spells from?

--flatline

Easy enough. They just don't take the Temporal OCCs, and most of their OCCs wont touch temporal magic....but the Translocator can, and does, learn a few spells of that art. (Or of course we could look for absolute total internal consistency from the game....)
(This, personally to me just confirms my opinion that many of the 'secret schools' of magic are secret simply to prevent their spells from falling into open use. Just as Time Slip is probably a Temporal Spell, and Animate Dead is a Necromancy Spell that just 'got lose in the wild' so to speak.)

The Translocator can learn as many as 1D4 temporal spells with each level.

The Temporal Wizard only gets to learn 1 temporal spell with each level.

This does not take into account the purchasing or otherwise acquiring of magic spells outside of leveling, but it is still, I think, curious.

--flatline

[Library Ogre]

The translocator was written far later, so the fact that it has a lot of power relative to the temporal characters surprises me little. While temporal magic may be the bailiwick of the alien temporal raider, there's more than enough humanlike sources to learn it from... temporal warriors, temporal wizards, and any other wizard types that may have learned it.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I could have sworn their numbers were bigger than that. oh well, 1000 is far better than nothing.

You are wrong that they can't learn temporal magic, the translocater specifically can starting at level 2.

Thank you for pointing that out. It directly contradicts what was printed on page 20: "...Nor will they practice alien magic, eliminating Cloud Magic, Temporal Magic, Tatto Magic, Atlantean Stone Magic, Bio-Wizardry, Dolphin Magic, Nazca Line Magic and most foreign magicks (i.e. magic that originates in another country such as Russian Spoiling and Fire Magic or English Herbology or Australian Dream Time Magic)".

I wonder who the Translocator learns Temporal Spells from?

--flatline

Most likely they made some kind of sweetheart deal with a temporal wizard (I can't see them dealing with a temporal raider directly, who is outright stated to be a kind of demon) who's living in the burbs. Tutalage in return for helping him evade coalition authorities--prehaps more than one? the thing about teachable magic is only you have to bribe/blackmail one temporal wizard for the secrets before high level translocators with a lot of temporal magic can train lower level ones themselves.

In suspect this is so because clearly the translocator wasn't intended to train temporal magic from the start because they can't learn it right away--they have to be at least level 2, which means they need experiance fiddling around with teleportation before they have learned enough dimensional basics to learn temporal magic properly (albiet quickly) which highly suggests the translocator OCC predates their temporal ability, and they simply managed to find that the training can be applied to temporal wizardy after the fact once they have had enough experiance with lesser temporal/dimensional magic.

[Tor]

Other thing worth pointing out: the Mystic variants get multiple super psionic powers, compared to the base OCC which could only get 1. So they're a lot better.

Not to mention the various master psychics working with the Vanguard. Would not be surprised if they had double-agents in Psi-Bat, which would help with keeping ahead of psi-stalkers.

It directly contradicts what was printed on page 20: "...Nor will they practice alien magic, eliminating Cloud Magic, Temporal Magic, Tatto Magic, Atlantean Stone Magic, Bio-Wizardry, Dolphin Magic, Nazca Line Magic and most foreign magicks (i.e. magic that originates in another country such as Russian Spoiling and Fire Magic or English Herbology or Australian Dream Time Magic)".

I wonder who the Translocator learns Temporal Spells from?

Nobody, those are spells they learn on their own, so they probably consider it earth-born rather than alien magic. I take the page 20 statement to mean that unless they had invented it first, they would not go learn a spell from an alien. But coming up with it on their own is okay.