Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling 'em..

[Tor]

Free repairs and ammo is all well and good, but what about when things get really hot and your beloved 20 megacredit suit is effectively destroyed? Does the unit compensate you for the loss? Do they buy a new one?

Considering most GB pilots will be SDC, having their suit destroyed probably means they died in the process so I don't think that's much of a concern. This is also the least likely of any investment since the have more MDC than pretty much anything short of a Devastator and can attack from such a ridiculous range that the only credible threat is missiles, which they can shoot down since their payload can outlast most missile payloads.

I do think it pays for any non-triax GB to carry a missile rifle in their left hand to use minis to shoot down volleys though, the higher percentage is probably worth the cost.

Mercenaries are in it to make money, and if the return on the investment is smaller than they can make other ways... they'll do something else with that money!

True, and there are ups and downs to all the alternatives. For the cost of a GB you might outfit yourself with a simpler suit (say, a Samson or a Titan) and then use the extra money to buy basic MDC armor and guns for a dozen guys and then pay them a salary to work for you.

You could end up causing far more destruction, protecting a larger area, have people to watch your back while you sleep, etc. in exchange for the suit.

It of course causes other complications too: like can you trust your men? How much will it cost to repair their stuff? Will their upkeep eventually outstrip the bigger initial investment a GB needs? What is the person you sold your GB to doing with it now?

The economies are simply too big and diverse for there not to be currency in place. Now barter is still going to be a big issue going between [i]some[I] of those economies - it is unlikely that any legitimate CS retailer is going to take any non-CS currency (except perhaps Triax)

Pretty sure they would take that new ishpeming/manistique currency in the least since they are allies now.

Currencies are in place and are used in cities, the issue is that much of Rifts is wilderness who may not even have things like credit readers to make use of this. We just have to remember that barter is the rule because low-tech SDC hicks is the rule. They need things immediately valuable to them. Credits are a luxury for the city folk.

Remember also that barter is a tremendous pain for everyone involved. Given the concept of money and the presence of powers able to issue a secure currency, barter will almost always be a secondary means of exchange.

I don't agree, it's a pain for us because we're not used to bartering, we're used to relying on money. People who don't use money would be more comfortable with barter because they use it all the time, they'd have an emotional instinct for it.

[Tor]

the amount of credits in Rifts Earth do not allow for the book prices for most Robots and Magic Items. Even if you half them, the prices would still be too high for what you get compared to Power Armors. Bots should be like 25% of book price, including Glitter Boys.

Based on what formula exactly?

Based on raw MDC you could say exactly the same thing about the cost of power armor compared to basic body armor.

The high cost of bots/PA are not based on that, they're based on sandwiching more personal power and mobility on a single operator or group.

I think an MDC wetsuit costs 25 thousand, so I could outfit a thousand vagabonds with that for the cost of a Glitter Boy and just have them dogpile the guy. The problem is they cost money to feed, they can run off with the wetsuits, the GB could simply outrun them, snipe them from afar, etc.

As someone pointed out in another thread, one big advantage of bots (moreso bigger ones) is that you can pilot them in shifts, sleep in them, not have to worry about environmental decontamination, etc. A UAR-1 or Behemoth is almost like a mobile home, albeit a cramped one.

It's like looking at the cost of the Explorer. That thing is mega-expensive (best first choice for a starting operator) for how little MDC it has. What you're paying for is basically the living space.

if everybody recognizes that all you have to do is sell your expensive bot and acquire 4 mercs to be your body guard or buy 7 power armors (one for each day of the week), nobody would even buy your bot cause they would be trying to do the same thing.

Until the guy who kept his Glitter Boy just annihilates all the guys relying on Samsons. Range is a big factor in combat if you have the intelligence to initiate combat with it. If you have speed to flee from stronger opponents, it lets you kill with low damage. If you have high damage, you can take out most opponents before they do close.

The Glitter Boy is the cheapest long-range killer I've ever seen. While it's true that missiles can eclipse them, missiles are much more expensive than rail gun ammo and can be shot down with cheaper missiles.

[cosmicfish]

Considering most GB pilots will be SDC, having their suit destroyed probably means they died in the process so I don't think that's much of a concern. This is also the least likely of any investment since the have more MDC than pretty much anything short of a Devastator...

I agree that the GB is one of the most rugged suits, but it is not invulnerable by any standard. Thanks to the reinforced pilot's compartment that SDC pilot can still survive the destruction of the MDC suit (giving the simplest case), and even if the pilot dies that GB is the core of his family's wealth, passed from father to son, and he will want to make sure that his heirs receive compensation even if he dies!

It of course causes other complications too: like can you trust your men? How much will it cost to repair their stuff? Will their upkeep eventually outstrip the bigger initial investment a GB needs? What is the person you sold your GB to doing with it now?

While those are all valid concerns, the point is that the perverse economics of Rifts means that solving those problems is still comparatively cheap and easy.

Currencies are in place and are used in cities, the issue is that much of Rifts is wilderness who may not even have things like credit readers to make use of this. We just have to remember that barter is the rule because low-tech SDC hicks is the rule. They need things immediately valuable to them. Credits are a luxury for the city folk.

First, I think it is highly unlikely that any but the smallest of communities would be without the ability to trade in credits - it is too simple and useful a technology to casually assume it's absence. Second, those communities unable to transact in credits are almost certainly not going to be able to handle anything resembling a fair price on a GB! If you can afford a 20 megacredit war machine, odds are good that you can afford a credit reader or the price of travel to get to one!!

I don't agree, it's a pain for us because we're not used to bartering, we're used to relying on money. People who don't use money would be more comfortable with barter because they use it all the time, they'd have an emotional instinct for it.

That is true... but only for commonly traded items within a given community where there are shared understands of item worth. And again, in small communities, bartering for something like a GB gets ridiculous pretty quick. "In return for your shiny metal man, I will give you, er, our entire village? And the women? But we get to keep the beer!!"

[kaid]

Free repairs and ammo is all well and good, but what about when things get really hot and your beloved 20 megacredit suit is effectively destroyed? Does the unit compensate you for the loss? Do they buy a new one?

Considering most GB pilots will be SDC, having their suit destroyed probably means they died in the process so I don't think that's much of a concern. This is also the least likely of any investment since the have more MDC than pretty much anything short of a Devastator and can attack from such a ridiculous range that the only credible threat is missiles, which they can shoot down since their payload can outlast most missile payloads.

I do think it pays for any non-triax GB to carry a missile rifle in their left hand to use minis to shoot down volleys though, the higher percentage is probably worth the cost.

Mercenaries are in it to make money, and if the return on the investment is smaller than they can make other ways... they'll do something else with that money!

True, and there are ups and downs to all the alternatives. For the cost of a GB you might outfit yourself with a simpler suit (say, a Samson or a Titan) and then use the extra money to buy basic MDC armor and guns for a dozen guys and then pay them a salary to work for you.

You could end up causing far more destruction, protecting a larger area, have people to watch your back while you sleep, etc. in exchange for the suit.

It of course causes other complications too: like can you trust your men? How much will it cost to repair their stuff? Will their upkeep eventually outstrip the bigger initial investment a GB needs? What is the person you sold your GB to doing with it now?

The economies are simply too big and diverse for there not to be currency in place. Now barter is still going to be a big issue going between [i]some[I] of those economies - it is unlikely that any legitimate CS retailer is going to take any non-CS currency (except perhaps Triax)

Pretty sure they would take that new ishpeming/manistique currency in the least since they are allies now.

Currencies are in place and are used in cities, the issue is that much of Rifts is wilderness who may not even have things like credit readers to make use of this. We just have to remember that barter is the rule because low-tech SDC hicks is the rule. They need things immediately valuable to them. Credits are a luxury for the city folk.

Remember also that barter is a tremendous pain for everyone involved. Given the concept of money and the presence of powers able to issue a secure currency, barter will almost always be a secondary means of exchange.

I don't agree, it's a pain for us because we're not used to bartering, we're used to relying on money. People who don't use money would be more comfortable with barter because they use it all the time, they'd have an emotional instinct for it.

Barter is a pain but unless there is a goverment or source with enough trust and stability to act as a bank and mint coins people believe have value it is a pretty traditional way of commerce especially during times of high instability and chaos. It is one reason why the CS credits are used even by their enemies because even the ones who hate them acknowledge that the CS is a large stable system that is likely to be around to honor debts when they are called in.

[Blue_Lion]

There can be lots of reasons for that a GB does not want to sell it that are not connected to investments. It is possible that the GB is a family hair loom passed down through generations and not something that the pilot wants to sell. There is also the prestige of being a GB the symbol of defenders.(kind of like buying a Porsche because it is a Porsche when any car can get you where you are going.) Or driving a fuel guzzling suv instead of a more fuel efficient car that would cost you less.)

People do not make choices based only on Return of investment.

[cosmicfish]

People do not make choices based only on Return of investment.

Of course not, but that isn't really the point of the thread. The fact that someone might act contrary to reason does not change what reason is. It just means that some people are contrary.

[Alrik Vas]

I'd buy your glitter boy, then blow your head off with the boom gun and take my money back. seems strong.

[Svartalf]

mmmh, if you blow a civilian with the boom gun, odds are you're not gonna find much of the money back... the credstick will likely be lost or detroyed...

[cosmicfish]

Also, what kind of idiot arranges the deal where that is possible? From either side? Because the seller could pull the same trick - "You have my 20 million credits? Good, let me demonstrate the suit then..." BANG "... cha-ching!"

Seriously, anyone with half a brain sets this deal up with safeguards.

[Nightmask]

People do not make choices based only on Return of investment.

Of course not, but that isn't really the point of the thread. The fact that someone might act contrary to reason does not change what reason is. It just means that some people are contrary.

Except people weight things differently, what you think is reasonable someone else might not because they valued something else higher than you do. So someone deciding to keep his family GB instead of sell it for a profit for example is not being unreasonable in thinking keeping the family GB to be more important than money.

[Athos]

Also, what kind of idiot arranges the deal where that is possible? From either side? Because the seller could pull the same trick - "You have my 20 million credits? Good, let me demonstrate the suit then..." BANG "... cha-ching!"

Seriously, anyone with half a brain sets this deal up with safeguards.

Exactly !

[Alrik Vas]

direct sale with what kind of preparations? if you come armed they'll think its a trap, if you don't bring the goods, they won't bring the money.

you could convince a buyer, sure, but I doubt they'd pay market value if you're being dodgy.

this is what happens when GMs gloss over details. things just work out. /shrug

[cosmicfish]

Except people weight things differently, what you think is reasonable someone else might not because they valued something else higher than you do. So someone deciding to keep his family GB instead of sell it for a profit for example is not being unreasonable in thinking keeping the family GB to be more important than money.

But the question is about return on investment (it's even in the thread title), and "family tradition" does not play into ROI unless family connections directly influence either expenses or revenues. "Reasonable" in this case can only address the actual question at hand, not whether or not the entire population of GB pilots are bound to make horrible financial decisions based on dad having left them a suit of power armor in their will.

[cosmicfish]

direct sale with what kind of preparations? if you come armed they'll think its a trap, if you don't bring the goods, they won't bring the money.

If I was selling a GB, to a questionable buyer, I would arrange for a mutually acceptable third party to mediate, arranging to have them verify the functioning of the suit and then arranging the delivery. Failing that, I would simply do the sale somewhere no one would start a fight - this kind of sale has to occur on a regular basis, given all the mercenaries and adventurers on Rifts Earth, it should not be difficult to find a safe venue. At a minimum, post-demonstration I would simply remove a small but vital part from the boom gun, to be handed over at the end of the transaction.

Basically, so long as you are not meeting up alone in some dark forest to do the deal, you should be able to arrange it safely.

you could convince a buyer, sure, but I doubt they'd pay market value if you're being dodgy.

On this kind of rare purchase, I doubt you would have trouble getting market value. It's not like GB suits come up every day. Heck, the most likely buyers are going to be governments and large mercenary groups anyway, organizations that aren't likely to want a reputation for screwing over vendors.

[Alrik Vas]

well...it might be different than you think, considering the opinion of the GB return on investment. 's

[Tor]

I agree that the GB is one of the most rugged suits, but it is not invulnerable by any standard.

Which is why I said it was least likely to be destroyed, not unable to be

Thanks to the reinforced pilot's compartment that SDC pilot can still survive the destruction of the MDC suit (giving the simplest case)

I forgot about the RPC but... if the main body is taken out, a pilot in most scenarios is probably going to die. I guess there is the chance that missiles take out the main but then they don't bother firing anymore and you manage to escape and run off in your pilot armor and not get taken out by pursuers.

even if the pilot dies that GB is the core of his family's wealth, passed from father to son, and he will want to make sure that his heirs receive compensation even if he dies!

In that case you'd buy some kind of life insurance plan, I'm sure someone is offering them. I'd offer decent rates to a GB pilot who had enough experience to keep distance from threats as they are so unlikely to die. Perhaps different policies depending on whether they died while fighting in armor (to compensate for armor) or if they died while getting vibro-knived in bed with a prostitute.

While those are all valid concerns, the point is that the perverse economics of Rifts means that solving those problems is still comparatively cheap and easy.

In a lot of cases, sure. Eventually someone is going to want the GB suit though. There's a limited amount and they'll be competed for. Being able to vapourize an average opponent in one shot can be attractive.

I think it is highly unlikely that any but the smallest of communities would be without the ability to trade in credits - it is too simple and useful a technology to casually assume it's absence.

That depends on the wealth of the community and their attitudes towards technology and how much they interact with other communities.

those communities unable to transact in credits are almost certainly not going to be able to handle anything resembling a fair price on a GB! If you can afford a 20 megacredit war machine, odds are good that you can afford a credit reader or the price of travel to get to one!!

Agreed, but even of those communities who can afford a 25 million dollar PA/bot in their defense plan, how many are going to want to give that much power to a single person? It might be preferable to have 250 soldiers armed with Warmonger suits from Chipwell. Less likely a rogue soldier is going to go rogue and take over your community, or run off with it and sell it and get rich.

[cosmicfish]

well...it might be different than you think, considering the opinion of the GB return on investment. 's

A large mercenary company has more opportunities to balance the costs and benefits, and with governments ROI is not even a real issue. There are also people who might purchase a GB without intention of putting it into actual combat. Plus, there are idiots who come from a family of GB pilots and can't conceive of a live without the suit, but Brother Wilbur got the family suit destroyed and now they need a replacement to carry on their tradition...

[cosmicfish]

I forgot about the RPC but... if the main body is taken out, a pilot in most scenarios is probably going to die. I guess there is the chance that missiles take out the main but then they don't bother firing anymore and you manage to escape and run off in your pilot armor and not get taken out by pursuers.

150 MDC allows for a decent amount of tolerance, plus you have the pilot armor. In the middle of a firefight with (generally) other combatants, I think it far more likely than any intelligent attacker (and most non-intelligent ones too) will divert their attention to the ones still shooting at them.

In that case you'd buy some kind of life insurance plan, I'm sure someone is offering them. I'd offer decent rates to a GB pilot who had enough experience to keep distance from threats as they are so unlikely to die. Perhaps different policies depending on whether they died while fighting in armor (to compensate for armor) or if they died while getting vibro-knived in bed with a prostitute.

I had already included that in my operating costs earlier in this thread. If you are insuring through a company instead of self-insuring, there will be higher costs with the benefit that you are immediately insured and the penalty that you don't necessarily get that money back! So yes, you could increase your costs and take this option.

In a lot of cases, sure. Eventually someone is going to want the GB suit though. There's a limited amount and they'll be competed for. Being able to vapourize an average opponent in one shot can be attractive.

Sure it is. Doesn't make it a good business decision to be an operator, though.

That depends on the wealth of the community and their attitudes towards technology and how much they interact with other communities.

Poor, intentionally secluded, non-technological communities... why are they buying a GB again? To turn it into a planter?

Agreed, but even of those communities who can afford a 25 million dollar PA/bot in their defense plan, how many are going to want to give that much power to a single person? It might be preferable to have 250 soldiers armed with Warmonger suits from Chipwell. Less likely a rogue soldier is going to go rogue and take over your community, or run off with it and sell it and get rich.

I agree with this completely. A GB makes as much sense for a small wilderness town as a B2 Stealth Bomber does for the Trinidad Air Force.

[Tor]

150 MDC allows for a decent amount of tolerance, plus you have the pilot armor.

Any armor can be whittled down. If a GB pilot is a sitting duck except for perhaps a backup pistol they kept under their seat I could see some mercs thinking "okay, no more boom gun, go chase him down with a vibro-blade, cheaper than wasting our e-clips"

If the GB's enemy includes any PA with a nuclear engine and unlimited-ammo energy weapons though... not a factor.

In the middle of a firefight with (generally) other combatants, I think it far more likely than any intelligent attacker (and most non-intelligent ones too) will divert their attention to the ones still shooting at them.

Agreed, if the GB is working in the group, and if the others are still around by the time he's taken down (might've been killed off or fled when their artillery died).

Most pilots aren't going to flee very fast unless it's possible to wear a jet-pack with the pilot armor when inside the thing, a bit unclear on how much room one has. I guess you could stash a cheap vehicle nearby though. I'd always want to have an APC that can go faster than a GB can run nearby (if it can carry the weight) to move a GB around to avoid it getting flanked by approaching close-range attackers using terrain/camou to avoid being shot from a distance.

Sure it is. Doesn't make it a good business decision to be an operator, though.

How good a decision it is may vary on the stability of the region you live in.

Poor, intentionally secluded, non-technological communities... why are they buying a GB again? To turn it into a planter?

I thought the discussion was about how common credits were versus trade, not glitter boys. I think this has derailed a bit, this was a response to:

The economies are simply too big and diverse for there not to be currency in place. Now barter is still going to be a big issue going between [i]some[I] of those economies

and then

I think it is highly unlikely that any but the smallest of communities would be without the ability to trade in credits - it is too simple and useful a technology to casually assume it's absence

which did not specify specific trade for a GB.

Agreed, but even of those communities who can afford a 25 million dollar PA/bot in their defense plan, how many are going to want to give that much power to a single person? It might be preferable to have 250 soldiers armed with Warmonger suits from Chipwell. Less likely a rogue soldier is going to go rogue and take over your community, or run off with it and sell it and get rich.

I agree with this completely. A GB makes as much sense for a small wilderness town as a B2 Stealth Bomber does for the Trinidad Air Force.[/quote]

[cosmicfish]

Any armor can be whittled down. If a GB pilot is a sitting duck except for perhaps a backup pistol they kept under their seat I could see some mercs thinking "okay, no more boom gun, go chase him down with a vibro-blade, cheaper than wasting our e-clips"

If the GB's enemy includes any PA with a nuclear engine and unlimited-ammo energy weapons though... not a factor.

Sure, that can all happen. So what? There is a chance you will survive even if the suit is destroyed, and there is chance that even though you die that you have heirs that you want compensated for the loss of the suit (and possibly the pilot). All of that factors into the cost, which was my point. Suicidal bachelors who don't have heirs and refuse to survive without their GB can ignore that cost, but then we're sort of branching into Crazy territory. Guys with heirlooms tend to have the long, sensible view on things like this.

Agreed, if the GB is working in the group, and if the others are still around by the time he's taken down (might've been killed off or fled when their artillery died).

Of course the rest of the group can be destroyed first, but again, it all just figures into the cost. And if the pilot is out alone, he doesn't really understand what GB's are designed for.

How good a decision it is may vary on the stability of the region you live in.

It all figures into the cost, but if the job requires you to put it on and move then listed GB salaries are probably insufficient, and if there is any chance of combat they definitely are. I spelled out my calculations above - math doesn't lie. There may well be situations where the numbers work out okay, but I think they are really going to be pushing credibility as "typical" or even "likely".

I thought the discussion was about how common credits were versus trade, not glitter boys.

About both, really. I still maintain that even small communities are going to be able to transact in credits unless they are (a) exceptionally isolated or (b) philosophically opposed. Barter requires shared understanding of value and only works well within closed communities - even slightly broader communities embrace currency as being a better solution for everyone. The cultural aspects just get transferred into an interest in haggling.

So not only do I think that barter will be much, much rarer than implied, I think that the exceptions will be the exact places where a GB would be impractical and unwanted.

[eliakon]

well...it might be different than you think, considering the opinion of the GB return on investment. 's

A large mercenary company has more opportunities to balance the costs and benefits, and with governments ROI is not even a real issue. There are also people who might purchase a GB without intention of putting it into actual combat. Plus, there are idiots who come from a family of GB pilots and can't conceive of a live without the suit, but Brother Wilbur got the family suit destroyed and now they need a replacement to carry on their tradition...

Heck if Wilbur got the suit, then Joey is going to have to find his own suit if he wants to be a pilot......
The problem with hereditary equipment is that only one heir can get it.....

[cosmicfish]

Heck if Wilbur got the suit, then Joey is going to have to find his own suit if he wants to be a pilot......
The problem with hereditary equipment is that only one heir can get it.....

Yes, but if Wilbur doesn't have kids yet, then Joey is probably Wilbur's heir still and would quite probably drop his old gig to take over Wilbur's suit. There can be complicated family politics behind things like this.

[Tor]

Chance of combat is only a cost-risk if it is versus MD-inflicting opponents and if they are able to close within range of hurting you before you kill them. Even for those capable of doing so, opposing is a GB is a suicidal risk for most things, so a lot of people are just going to flee from or surrender to you. If I wanted to take out a GB suit I'd probably wait until it was parked in town and blow it up with C4 or something, or pay some hobos to lob grenades at it and then run for cover into a nearby children's hospital. Opposing it directly is just plain ridiculous. Just because 10 guys teaming up on a GB are able to take it out doesn't mean that they're all willing for 9/10 of them to die in the process of doing so.

The only critical threat I can see a GB facing is from missiles since a volley could take out a boom gun and neutralize the threat of 1-shot death from them. Most people do not have missiles, and they are expensive so even those that do may prefer to avoid using them unless necessary.

For RPing the GB family lineage thing... what are the alternative strategies here? Sell the GB, give your 25 children (GB pilots are sexy, you will have a harem of several spouses in your hometown) Flying Titans, have them earn income as a squad instead? Actually pretty good since you're more mobile, can save money on ammo (though Impervious to Energy folk can be a problem) and can better patrol your home against invaders in shifts.

[cosmicfish]

Chance of combat is only a cost-risk if it is versus MD-inflicting opponents and if they are able to close within range of hurting you before you kill them. Even for those capable of doing so, opposing is a GB is a suicidal risk for most things, so a lot of people are just going to flee from or surrender to you. If I wanted to take out a GB suit I'd probably wait until it was parked in town and blow it up with C4 or something, or pay some hobos to lob grenades at it and then run for cover into a nearby children's hospital. Opposing it directly is just plain ridiculous. Just because 10 guys teaming up on a GB are able to take it out doesn't mean that they're all willing for 9/10 of them to die in the process of doing so.

Again, go back to the math. Every time you fire the gun, every time you take damage, there is a cost. If the possibility of either of those is non-zero (and how could it not be?), then figure it into the cost of operating the unit and include that in the cost of the contract.

For RPing the GB family lineage thing... what are the alternative strategies here? Sell the GB, give your 25 children (GB pilots are sexy, you will have a harem of several spouses in your hometown) Flying Titans, have them earn income as a squad instead? Actually pretty good since you're more mobile, can save money on ammo (though Impervious to Energy folk can be a problem) and can better patrol your home against invaders in shifts.

Yep. Or invest that money in the Black Market, or do just about anything else. All assuming, of course, that no one is willing to pay the actual cost of operation.

I mentioned the B2 bomber a while back. It costs ~$135,000 per flight hour to operate, and if there is even a 1% chance of losing the aircraft then that corresponds to a risk of $20M for that time period. You figure this stuff in, or you spend your brief life in poverty.

[Alrik Vas]

I solved the zzz thu(()64/7 armor succession issue in my game by killing the pilot's family.

[Tor]

go back to the math. Every time you fire the gun, every time you take damage, there is a cost.

Yes, but going solely by the cost of boom gun ammo, merc work with a GB is pretty affordable. What is it, 10 credits a shot?

If the possibility of either of those is non-zero (and how could it not be?), then figure it into the cost of operating the unit and include that in the cost of the contract.

Easy to do with ammo, only repairs seem expensive.

Or invest that money in the Black Market

Is the ability to invest in the black market mentioned in its source book or something? Are we really free to just buy stocks like in the NYSE or something? Do we know how much they appreciate? Couldn't you lose money if the BM stocks drop?

or do just about anything else.

Like what, farm? It's probably cheaper to buy boom gun ammo and pay for that with merc fees than it is to hire workers for a farm and stuff. You got someone to oversee them? We don't know what business skills a GB pilot even has or if they know who to trust to handle their money.

I guess I'd like to see some raw stats on the ways people earn credits outside of merc work to compete with this.

[cosmicfish]

Yes, but going solely by the cost of boom gun ammo, merc work with a GB is pretty affordable. What is it, 10 credits a shot?

That's an excellent question. No one seems to know with any real specificity. Whatever it is, however cheap it is, it should be figured in. And I find it absolutely hilarious that in Rifts it is apparently more expensive to recharge batteries than it is to make ammunition.

Easy to do with ammo, only repairs seem expensive.

Repairs are very expensive and not likely to be avoided. And again, if you don't think the capital investment in the suit needs to be factored in then you don't understand how business accounting works. At all.

Is the ability to invest in the black market mentioned in its source book or something? Are we really free to just buy stocks like in the NYSE or something? Do we know how much they appreciate? Couldn't you lose money if the BM stocks drop?

It was alluded to earlier in the thread, I'm not sure of the source. But if you prefer, pg 136 of Black Market notes several e-clip chargers as paying for themselves in as little as 6 months - that would be akin to the figures cited earlier, and arguably address market rates rather than anything risky or inherently illegal.

Like what, farm? It's probably cheaper to buy boom gun ammo and pay for that with merc fees than it is to hire workers for a farm and stuff. You got someone to oversee them? We don't know what business skills a GB pilot even has or if they know who to trust to handle their money.

If they are taking a 20 megacredit war machine that costs 1000 per MDC to repair, and they are accepting 120k annual pay as a freelancer, then it is very clear that they have no business sense. That corresponds to an annual return on investment of 0.6% assuming no operating costs or living expenses whatsoever. I just checked, my savings account makes more than that. Finding a business that pays itself off in less than 150 years should not be that hard.

[Tor]

I am not saying not to factor in the capital investment, I'm saying that there are a lot of factors to the value of a suit besides how much it costs which make it very hard to quantify what you get out of it.

I think I heard rail gun ammo finally got a credit-per-shot guideline in RUE, which it had lacked until then except for DU/Uranium rounds in NGR. I'd like to know the cost for wooden (metal in middle) alternate rail guns per vampire kingdoms though, dunno if we ever got them.

I think repair costs for GBs are widely avoidable compared to how frequently we incur them for other PA, on a pure range basis. There is the issue of ground dangers which fliers can avoid, but fliers may be more vulnerable to other dangers.

Investing in e-clip chargers is fine, but there is a limit there, there is only so much need for e-clip recharging and the more people who do it, the more competetive the prices will need to be. Plus you would need to guard wherever you're doing it, make client relationships, avoid having it stolen, etc.

Regarding the 1000 creds per MDC repaired, is that the rate for all PA? Is it cheaper, like 100 creds per MDC, to repair body armor? These factors could make repairing a LOT of MDC stuff pretty costly.

The GB's major benefit over other stuff like say... the Samson, is that their huge range and huge damage allows the wise to avoid damage altogether by killing stuff before it can touch you. For those who see you first and could sneak up, they'd probably just run if there was any chance of you surviving and hitting back.

The biggest threat to GB's MDC is probably traps like mines and stuff that they might step on, or someone with one of those 4-mini volley rifles, or someone blowing up or stealing the GB while you go drink some rum.

Unless we know how much money businesses in Rifts make, I'm not sure we should be calling a 1/2 percent annum return a bad thing. We shouldn't go by our own economy, our world is a lot more peaceful than Rifts.

Course a lot of these problems would go out the window if you just install a Naruni force field on the glitter-boy...

Also, if you could get some Talisman of that repair spell in FoM I could see that being used to affect cheaper repairs than what operators need, I guess it depends on how much mages charge. Perhaps if there are more operators they will also compete and drive prices down.

If you have 25 mil you could buy more suits for more people, if you can manage/trust them, I think some people prefer to consolidate power in their favoured few though. They may have trouble setting up a working business with the other credits if they want to trade down to something like a Samson/Titan.

[cosmicfish]

I am not saying not to factor in the capital investment, I'm saying that there are a lot of factors to the value of a suit besides how much it costs which make it very hard to quantify what you get out of it.

Not really. I mean, the costs are pretty simple by themselves, it is just a matter of figuring the risk of this contract, and every single merc has to make that calculation anyway.

I think I heard rail gun ammo finally got a credit-per-shot guideline in RUE, which it had lacked until then except for DU/Uranium rounds in NGR. I'd like to know the cost for wooden (metal in middle) alternate rail guns per vampire kingdoms though, dunno if we ever got them.

Which gives us the ridiculous result that the highly-specialized, heavy ammo used in the boom gun is bought at the same price as the tine shreds of metal used in tiny rail guns. It's like saying tank rounds and pistol cartridges cost the same.

I think repair costs for GBs are widely avoidable compared to how frequently we incur them for other PA, on a pure range basis. There is the issue of ground dangers which fliers can avoid, but fliers may be more vulnerable to other dangers.

It's been a while since I played a GB pilot, but I recall taking a lot of damage. The increased combat range of the GB only helps so much - stealth, flanking, raw speed, terrain, being asleep at the wheel... all of these present opportunities for enemies to get within combat range, and once they are the suit is not incredibly mobile.

Investing in e-clip chargers is fine, but there is a limit there, there is only so much need for e-clip recharging and the more people who do it, the more competetive the prices will need to be. Plus you would need to guard wherever you're doing it, make client relationships, avoid having it stolen, etc.

Absolutely. Still, at least the job doesn't require letting people shoot at you. Assume profits are 4x lower than the book notes, you would still make a 50% annual return.

Regarding the 1000 creds per MDC repaired, is that the rate for all PA? Is it cheaper, like 100 creds per MDC, to repair body armor? These factors could make repairing a LOT of MDC stuff pretty costly.

Body armor is indeed cheaper. I think the SB1 rate for power armor was 800/MDC, someone earlier suggested 1000/MDC which seems like a reasonable increase for the GB's unique armor.

The GB's major benefit over other stuff like say... the Samson, is that their huge range and huge damage allows the wise to avoid damage altogether by killing stuff before it can touch you. For those who see you first and could sneak up, they'd probably just run if there was any chance of you surviving and hitting back.

It depends a lot on the enemy. Rifts presents plenty who would take those chances.

The biggest threat to GB's MDC is probably traps like mines and stuff that they might step on, or someone with one of those 4-mini volley rifles, or someone blowing up or stealing the GB while you go drink some rum.

Or, you know, coming around a mountain and seeing 50 bandits with hand weapons just a few hundred feet away. One of my biggest complaints about Rifts is that it tries to unrealistically equalize combatants, the GB is more vulnerable to numbers than I think you realize.

Unless we know how much money businesses in Rifts make, I'm not sure we should be calling a 1/2 percent annum return a bad thing. We shouldn't go by our own economy, our world is a lot more peaceful than Rifts.

First, that 0.6% was assuming no costs whatsoever. If in your year you take just 120-150 MDC of damage, you don't have eating money - you've spent your entire salary on repairs. Second, I challenge you to answer how any city or town on Rifts Earth can exist if the economic growth since the Apocalypse has only been sufficient to double the wealth of that time. If 0.6% was even typical, the largest city on Rifts Earth would be a slightly nicer set of shacks than the first survivors huddled in.

Course a lot of these problems would go out the window if you just install a Naruni force field on the glitter-boy...

They would get better, of course. But if you can do that, so can your enemies...

Also, if you could get some Talisman of that repair spell in FoM I could see that being used to affect cheaper repairs than what operators need, I guess it depends on how much mages charge. Perhaps if there are more operators they will also compete and drive prices down.

Perhaps. Sounds like someone should invest in that.

If you have 25 mil you could buy more suits for more people, if you can manage/trust them, I think some people prefer to consolidate power in their favoured few though. They may have trouble setting up a working business with the other credits if they want to trade down to something like a Samson/Titan.

These are routine challenges with a minimal effect on your operations. If you can't find people you can trust, odds are already good that you've be murdered and robbed while out of your suit anyway, and selling your GB would make sure that those trusted people could be reasonably armed against the untrustworthy ones. And if you can fund a 25 megacredit business I can't see why there would not be solid investment opportunities for less.

[Tor]

What I mean is that you can't just take into account the amount of money you are being paid as a mercenary as the only thing coming from the investment into the suit, because owning and piloting a Glitter Boy suit has secondary benefits as well, such as personal safety, transportation and emergency food supply.

DU/U rounds are priced with a range, so I figure the low-range could be viewed as the low-tier rail guns while the highest number could be for the boom gun ammo. RUE priced the boom gun ammo higher than normal rail gun ammo, I think, although based on credits-per-damage the boom gun is cheapest by a ridiculous amount. It'd be a little more balanced if it were per flechette within the slug.

Being ambushed by a large strong group is certainly one thing (which would probably result in the death of most other suits) but even then it's a huge risk to attack the Glitter Boy, weak enemies simply wouldn't risk it unless they were suicidal. Smart GB pilots would not willingly expose themselves to bad terrain though, and pick contracts appropriately.

I am entirely aware that the GB is vulnerable to numbers, but I do question how well numerical situations are role-played. If a GB comes around a mountain and meets 50 bandits, must they necessarily engage in a fight to the death? The bandits would be well aware that a single shot would probably kill whoever it's aimed at. Do they want to take that risk, or will they just run?

I would distinguish through the wealth of a town growing and the wealth of a stock market growing. The black market may not grow at the same rate that communities have.

Enemies with Naruni fields are fine, Boom Gun would blast through it quickly. They also can't have it on 24/7 unless in PA, making them vulnerable to ambushes.

There are degrees of trust, trusting someone not to knife you in a bar doesn't mean that you'd trust them not to ditch you with the Flying Titan you bought them or gamble it away for Psi-Cola.

GB pilots might also take shelter in an MDC mobile home (like that NGR thing) and wear their environmental MDC pilot armor when traveling between their home and the PA, so they might not even have SDC flesh exposed to MD.

[Alrik Vas]

there was a whole thread on the cost of boom gun ammunition. what I got out of it was that the 200 slug round is bunk and they should be APDS with like 25mmx130mm perpetrators made of tungsten or DU. we're talking 1000cr a pop more than likely.

if you go strictly by the book description, however, I think its 100cr a shot.

[Athos]

there was a whole thread on the cost of boom gun ammunition. what I got out of it was that the 200 slug round is bunk and they should be APDS with like 25mmx130mm perpetrators made of tungsten or DU. we're talking 1000cr a pop more than likely.

if you go strictly by the book description, however, I think its 100cr a shot.

If you go by the books, RUE pg 259, lists the cost of a boom gun round at 3 credits. Yes, all of 3 credits.

[cosmicfish]

If you go by the books, RUE pg 259, lists the cost of a boom gun round at 3 credits. Yes, all of 3 credits.

Well spotted! The same section notes that the ammo is often supplied by employers or included as part of payment... almost as if the costs of operating the suit were important or something...

[Shark_Force]

as if the 3 credits per shot is a concern to a glitter boy pilot... as noted, it's the repairs that are the real killer.

[Tor]

It'd be more of a concern if we beefed that to a more realistic 'per flechette' so that it cost 600 credits a shot When you look at the cost of other kinds of ammo like exploding rounds in the TX-5 pump pistol (aren't they 300 creds a pop?) it seems fair, considering the GB's damage. Still a worthwhile investment when even the weakest mini-missile costs 1000 creds and a boom gun does far more than that.

I still think GBs don't have to worry about as much casual damage as everyone else since attacking one is a death wish. I'd only want to pop a GB if they were busy fighting something else and I thought they weren't looking and couldn't attribute who it was from.

[cosmicfish]

It'd be more of a concern if we beefed that to a more realistic 'per flechette' so that it cost 600 credits a shot

The canon answer is absurdly low. Charging a battery costs thousand times more than a single railgun round? The ammo should be much more expensive, and/or other types of ammo should be cheaper!

I still think GBs don't have to worry about as much casual damage as everyone else since attacking one is a death wish.

It's a suit of armor, not a god. It has about 2-3 times the armor and weapon damage as "typical" RPA, and while it has excellent range out in the flats it also has poor mobility and high visibility. Seriously, I've played GB pilots and I've played against GB's, I've never considered attacking one a death wish - tough does not equal invulnerable. Rifts is filled with reasons to attack any given type of adversary, the GB is no different.

[Tor]

The poor mobility means that you might be able to hide from it or outrun it, but unless you can make indirect attacks (some artillery and missiles can, of course, which is nice) to attack the GB will normally expose you.

I guess a lot of this depends on detection and prowl rolls and stuff. I figure something like a laser exposes someone's position, or pretty much any energy weapon (except that one which I think is invisible in JU) but perhaps smaller less noisy railguns would not leave a trail to give away the position of someone sniping a GB?

Am guessing single shots (also more economic way to whittle someone down) would be less likely to give away position than bursts since that might leave a more visible tussle.

One good strat would be something like the invisibility spell, although stuff like 'see the invisible' or thermal imaging bypass that cloak, in a lot of cases those abilities have range limits so it would force a ranged attacker to close distance to see you.

[Shark_Force]

in any event, toughness is all a matter of perspective. a glitterboy has what, 770 MDC? that is pretty impressive, fair enough.

but let us suppose that you come across a group of bandits that have laid an ambush. they'll get one free attack, and they're all in some sort of cover (called shot to hit them, ie 2 attacks). we'll assume their first attack is aimed, and that they have basic proficiency in their laser rifles which, for the sake of argument, all deal 2d6 damage and have no pulse (so 1d6 damage to the glitter boy); +3 on their first attack, +1 on all others.

needing an 8 to hit, 80% will land their first attack, 70% every additional attack (unless the GB dodges, in which case it will quickly run out of actions and won't be firing the boom gun, and the bandits are happy as can be). on a natural 20 they critical hit, which is functionally the same as hitting an extra 5% of the time, so it's functionally 85% and 75% to hit.

first attack, 2.975 damage per bandit. additional attacks, 2.625 damage. 140 bandits could destroy the glitter boy in the first action. if the glitter boy won initiative, it will get to launch an attack at this point, possibly killing one bandit (or at least destroying their armour). if not, you only need 95 bandits to win without taking a single shot. if you're prepared to let the glitter boy get two clean shots off, you need just over 70 if it wins initiative, or about 60 if it loses. for a third clean shot, you're looking at about 50 bandits if the glitter boy wins initiative, just over 40 if it doesn't.

at this point, your group of 40 extremely poorly-equipped bandits have managed to take out a glitter boy while suffering probably 1-2 losses. if we give them better equipment (for example, if they are mostly CS troops that deserted with their gear, or if they use APRJ rounds, or simply have a rifle that can pulse fire, or if they have some non-laser 2d6 damage weapon), the number needed will go down accordingly.

alternately, if they have a single mind melter, your glitter boy ejects you and you're screwed. if they have a single mage, they drop a carpet of adhesion while your back is turned and you're screwed. if they drop a large pile of rocks on you and wait for you to die of thirst(which may take a while for a glitter boy), you're screwed.

in essence, a group of bandits could certainly find easier prey than a glitter boy. it is unlikely that you will be their preferred target of choice (unless they have a mind melter, as that's an easy victory with a high chance of success that gets them a very expensive piece of tech), but if push comes to shove, a group of even 30 bandits with poor equipment could probably take down a glitter boy while suffering maybe 3-5 losses (some of which will be nothing more than destroyed armour potentially) if they set up a good ambush. if we assume they're being paid to take you down, and the payment includes, say, two dozen mini-missiles and a couple of launchers, you're in for an especially bad time. if we assume that you are not, in fact, riding around in a glitter boy at full capacity, again, reduce numbers accordingly.

the glitter boy is a very impressive piece of tech, and it performs very well in the right kind of fight. but with a bit of planning and preparation, even a poorly-equipped, poorly-trained group can take it down (no seriously, any decent training program should be able to get you to level 3 in a few months, pretty much... 25 XP per skill use means that it's only 40 uses per thousand XP, and that goes pretty quick if you practice stuff like prowl or similar. if you have to do some problem-solving along the way in your training, so much the better!). but in this setting, it's important to not get too confident in your ability to take on anything. as i've noted elsewhere, with a few hundred people in the gathering of heroes, the actual fight against each individual apocalypse demon should be a joke, as they will die in the first few seconds of combat, and they have thousands of MDC. never underestimate the power of a lot of small numbers.

[Tor]

I'm skeptical that a GB pilot would miss that many camouflaged soldiers. I also don't think ALL of them would count as surprise attacks. As soon as the first hit, the GB would be on guard. How would 140 guys coordinate to fire at the same moment? If it was radio, that would potentially be picked up by the GB.

Aside from this, the risk goes down dramatically when the GB works with other mercs rather than alone since they could take care of scouting for situations like this.

The range for Telemechanic Mental Operation/Possession is much shorter than that of a Boom gun. Not seeing the Mind Melter or Psi Tech as a credible threat here. Same with the mage.

[Killer Cyborg]

alternately, if they have a single mind melter, your glitter boy ejects you and you're screwed.

Psionics as a rule won't work through a Glitter Boy.

if they have a single mage, they drop a carpet of adhesion while your back is turned and you're screwed.

Plant your feet on the floor.
Pretend that there's somebody behind you and you have a rifle.
Maybe I'm super-flexible, but I'm perfectly capable of turning my body around and shooting behind me without moving my feet.
How about you?

if they drop a large pile of rocks on you and wait for you to die of thirst(which may take a while for a glitter boy), you're screwed.

True... but it'd have to be a very big pile of rocks.

in essence, a group of bandits could certainly find easier prey than a glitter boy. it is unlikely that you will be their preferred target of choice (unless they have a mind melter, as that's an easy victory with a high chance of success that gets them a very expensive piece of tech), but if push comes to shove, a group of even 30 bandits with poor equipment could probably take down a glitter boy while suffering maybe 3-5 losses (some of which will be nothing more than destroyed armour potentially) if they set up a good ambush.

Potentially, yes.
Use to be a lot simpler, when the JA-11 could fire full auto with the ion beam.
3d6x10 MD as per the main book, for an average of 105 MD, means 8+ bandits could take down a GB on the first attack.
3d6x7 MD as per CB1, for an average of 74 MD, means that 12+ could probably do it on the first attack.
A bunch of single-shot missile launchers could also do a decent job, without the burst/spray rules, and from up to a mile away.

[Alrik Vas]

now as long as we're being silly, I'd like to discuss 74 glitter boys against your bandit with the 2d6 energy rifle.

by my calculations, if the glitter boys act from ambush with invisibility: superior mods in their armor, and they all roll natural 20s, the bandit is almost dead even before the trigger is pulled.

is there some kind of precedent for that much damage going back in time to kill you before you get hit?

I mean, its rifts, anything is possible, right?

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm skeptical that a GB pilot would miss that many camouflaged soldiers.

40-100+?
I agree that it's unlikely.

I also don't think ALL of them would count as surprise attacks. As soon as the first hit, the GB would be on guard. How would 140 guys coordinate to fire at the same moment? If it was radio, that would potentially be picked up by the GB.

RUE 347
Sneak Attack: An attacker may lie in wait (ambush), attack from behind, or sneak up (Prowl) on an opponent. If the foe does not discover the attacker, then the sneak attack is successful. The sneak attacker always has initiative, and the defender is not able to parry or dodge the strike.

Note that this is applied on the individual level, not on the group level.
Which means that the GB would think that he was alone, then he'd get shot by one attacker in a sneak attack. Depending on what is meant by "discover," a camouflaged attacker might be able to make repeated sneak attacks until he/she is actually SEEN (or equivalently detected) by the GB. Even if it's as simple as "Gosh, somebody up there is shooting at me! Even though I can't see them, I've discovered that attacker!" it still only applies on the individual level.
The next attacker would still be undiscovered, and would still be able to sneak attack at least once.
And the next after that. And the next after that, and so forth, until all attackers were discovered.

[Shark_Force]

alternately, if they have a single mind melter, your glitter boy ejects you and you're screwed.

Psionics as a rule won't work through a Glitter Boy.

if they have a single mage, they drop a carpet of adhesion while your back is turned and you're screwed.

Plant your feet on the floor.
Pretend that there's somebody behind you and you have a rifle.
Maybe I'm super-flexible, but I'm perfectly capable of turning my body around and shooting behind me without moving my feet.
How about you?

if they drop a large pile of rocks on you and wait for you to die of thirst(which may take a while for a glitter boy), you're screwed.

True... but it'd have to be a very big pile of rocks.

in essence, a group of bandits could certainly find easier prey than a glitter boy. it is unlikely that you will be their preferred target of choice (unless they have a mind melter, as that's an easy victory with a high chance of success that gets them a very expensive piece of tech), but if push comes to shove, a group of even 30 bandits with poor equipment could probably take down a glitter boy while suffering maybe 3-5 losses (some of which will be nothing more than destroyed armour potentially) if they set up a good ambush.

Potentially, yes.
Use to be a lot simpler, when the JA-11 could fire full auto with the ion beam.
3d6x10 MD as per the main book, for an average of 105 MD, means 8+ bandits could take down a GB on the first attack.
3d6x7 MD as per CB1, for an average of 74 MD, means that 12+ could probably do it on the first attack.
A bunch of single-shot missile launchers could also do a decent job, without the burst/spray rules, and from up to a mile away.

- doesn't have to work through the suit. the mind melter in question should be using one of the telemechanics powers on the suit. whether it's paralyzed or taken over, you're screwed either way.

- a rifle is not glued to my shoulder perpendicular to my body. to all appearances, the boom gun is. if the glitter boy also has a laser rifle (which iirc is explicitly mentioned as a possibility), then sure it can hit you with that. but you will still have removed the boom gun from the equation.

- yes, it would have to be a rather large pile of rocks (something like 4,000 lbs isn't that much, but you'd have to make sure that no matter which way the glitter boy moves, it still has 4,000 lbs on it and therefore cannot move... it still works though).

- old burst rules helps. so would simply having better weapons for the job. the point was that a large number of very poorly equipped bandits could take out a glitter boy from full health with relatively few losses, assuming they prepared appropriately (and contrary to most, I don't think it's that unreasonable for that group to go undetected... they'd want to be several hundred feet away, and all it takes is one person in the entire group to have a very high skill; a single person at 98% skill hiding them means that in a group of 100 bandits, an average of 2 will not be well-hidden. for a group of 30, you've a fair chance at every last one of them being well-hidden. unless the glitter boy has detect ambush, he's not going to have much chance to spot it either).

[Killer Cyborg]

alternately, if they have a single mind melter, your glitter boy ejects you and you're screwed.

Psionics as a rule won't work through a Glitter Boy.

if they have a single mage, they drop a carpet of adhesion while your back is turned and you're screwed.

Plant your feet on the floor.
Pretend that there's somebody behind you and you have a rifle.
Maybe I'm super-flexible, but I'm perfectly capable of turning my body around and shooting behind me without moving my feet.
How about you?

if they drop a large pile of rocks on you and wait for you to die of thirst(which may take a while for a glitter boy), you're screwed.

True... but it'd have to be a very big pile of rocks.

in essence, a group of bandits could certainly find easier prey than a glitter boy. it is unlikely that you will be their preferred target of choice (unless they have a mind melter, as that's an easy victory with a high chance of success that gets them a very expensive piece of tech), but if push comes to shove, a group of even 30 bandits with poor equipment could probably take down a glitter boy while suffering maybe 3-5 losses (some of which will be nothing more than destroyed armour potentially) if they set up a good ambush.

Potentially, yes.
Use to be a lot simpler, when the JA-11 could fire full auto with the ion beam.
3d6x10 MD as per the main book, for an average of 105 MD, means 8+ bandits could take down a GB on the first attack.
3d6x7 MD as per CB1, for an average of 74 MD, means that 12+ could probably do it on the first attack.
A bunch of single-shot missile launchers could also do a decent job, without the burst/spray rules, and from up to a mile away.

- doesn't have to work through the suit. the mind melter in question should be using one of the telemechanics powers on the suit. whether it's paralyzed or taken over, you're screwed either way.

Point is that you're handwaving a LOT.
For TM stuff, you have to be in range. For a low level psychic, that means 20'-30' for TM Mental Operation, 40' for TM Paralysis, or 10'-2-' for TM Possession.
Aside from that Mental Operation wouldn't let him eject the pilot unless the psychic made a Pilot: Robots & Power Armor skill check at -30%. Even assuming the 88% base skill from Telemechanics applies, that's still only a 58% chance of success, which is far from certain.

And in all cases, it's ultimately up to the GM whether or not the power works on power armor that is being piloted, or if that would fall under the banner of "Cybernetics and bionics attached to living flesh," especially with the neural sensor plug.
Note that the only time any of the powers addresses power armor is in the context of TM Possession being able to affect "empty power armor."

Meaning, "yeah, that MIGHT happen, depending entirely on how the GM interprets a number of vague rules."
Or it might well not.

- a rifle is not glued to my shoulder perpendicular to my body. to all appearances, the boom gun is. if the glitter boy also has a laser rifle (which iirc is explicitly mentioned as a possibility), then sure it can hit you with that. but you will still have removed the boom gun from the equation.

Glue a rifle to your shoulder, then try it.
It works exactly the same way as if you're carrying the rifle.

- yes, it would have to be a rather large pile of rocks (something like 4,000 lbs isn't that much, but you'd have to make sure that no matter which way the glitter boy moves, it still has 4,000 lbs on it and therefore cannot move... it still works though).

More than that, you'd have to make sure that there was about 4k lbs of rocks on each arm, and that the hands couldn't just start crushing the rocks with MD strength, and so forth.
IIRC, this sort of thing might be covered in the rules for booby traps in CWC or the RGMG, under the appropriate skill.

- old burst rules helps. so would simply having better weapons for the job. the point was that a large number of very poorly equipped bandits could take out a glitter boy from full health with relatively few losses, assuming they prepared appropriately (and contrary to most, I don't think it's that unreasonable for that group to go undetected... they'd want to be several hundred feet away, and all it takes is one person in the entire group to have a very high skill; a single person at 98% skill hiding them means that in a group of 100 bandits, an average of 2 will not be well-hidden. for a group of 30, you've a fair chance at every last one of them being well-hidden. unless the glitter boy has detect ambush, he's not going to have much chance to spot it either).

That would net out as a +9 on a d20 versus the GB Pilot's Perception check, I think.
Not a bad edge, but if the GB makes 30+ checks, I'd wager the odds are in his favor of spotting somebody.

[Shark_Force]

in range for telemechanics powers isn't that hard. their range is not touch, therefore you can use them from astral projection, which is a fairly likely power for a mind melter to have. easy as can be.

and the rifle isn't just glued. it's glued perpendicular to my body. i can twist my torso pretty far. i can't twist it 180 degrees. i probably can't even twist it 160 degrees, to be honest. especially if i only have a pivot point at the waist (the glitter boy does not appear to have multiple torso twist locations, just one, which is presumably at the waist).

as to the perception roll, range should help make it harder. like i said, you want to engage from fairly far away (don't want to take those nasty boom gun disorientation penalties if you can help it, that'll really ruin your day).

[Killer Cyborg]

in range for telemechanics powers isn't that hard. their range is not touch, therefore you can use them from astral projection, which is a fairly likely power for a mind melter to have. easy as can be.

Sure, they can use Telemechanics in astral form... to affect machines in astral form.
But they're "little more than a mute, ghostly observer," who "can not communicate with the physical world except for Telepathy or Empathy," and who "can generally only affect the physical world... by Sensitive psionic powers such as Telepathy, Clairvoyance, Empathy, etc."

Using TM powers to affect machines would require an overly permissive GM's call.

and the rifle isn't just glued.

It's not glued at all, actually.

it's glued perpendicular to my body. i can twist my torso pretty far. i can't twist it 180 degrees.

Seriously?
I can get a bit further than that without much trouble.

i probably can't even twist it 160 degrees, to be honest. especially if i only have a pivot point at the waist (the glitter boy does not appear to have multiple torso twist locations, just one, which is presumably at the waist).

RUE 71
Glitter Boy power armor is an amazingly small and mobile, one-person, armored robot vehicle.
...and offers fully articulated hands and the mobility of the human body.

as to the perception roll, range should help make it harder.

Range should help against a guy with telescopic vision?

[Shark_Force]

in range for telemechanics powers isn't that hard. their range is not touch, therefore you can use them from astral projection, which is a fairly likely power for a mind melter to have. easy as can be.

Sure, they can use Telemechanics in astral form... to affect machines in astral form.
But they're "little more than a mute, ghostly observer," who "can not communicate with the physical world except for Telepathy or Empathy," and who "can generally only affect the physical world... by Sensitive psionic powers such as Telepathy, Clairvoyance, Empathy, etc."

Using TM powers to affect machines would require an overly permissive GM's call.

and the rifle isn't just glued.

It's not glued at all, actually.

it's glued perpendicular to my body. i can twist my torso pretty far. i can't twist it 180 degrees.

Seriously?
I can get a bit further than that without much trouble.

i probably can't even twist it 160 degrees, to be honest. especially if i only have a pivot point at the waist (the glitter boy does not appear to have multiple torso twist locations, just one, which is presumably at the waist).

RUE 71
Glitter Boy power armor is an amazingly small and mobile, one-person, armored robot vehicle.
...and offers fully articulated hands and the mobility of the human body.

as to the perception roll, range should help make it harder.

Range should help against a guy with telescopic vision?

- it isn't that permissive. it's not a touch range power, and it is probably a sensitive power (it's lesser cousin, machine ghost, certainly is).

- you're right, it isn't glued. it's bolted on, most likely. gluing was used merely to reflect that it is attached, not how it is attached.

- really? you can face your torso (not your head) straight backwards so that your shoulders are pointing behind you? without shifting your feet to an appropriate stance to do so? can you even find a picture of someone doing that? (a picture of you would be proof that you can do it, but seems rather an invasion of privacy, so i'll settle for someone else... let's face it, most rifts earth characters are gymnasts and acrobats ). let's not forget that the glitter boy is specifically noted for being vulnerable if you can get close and outmaneuver it. if you can fire in a 360 degree arc, that cannot happen. fair enough that it can probably move the body as much as a human, but i'm still not seeing how you're getting your shoulders to face straight back.

- yes, range should help against the guy with telescopic vision, because he can't be using it while walking. telescopic vision gives you a close-up view of a tiny area which is hundreds of feet away. you could try walking with telescopic vision running, but you'd probably go off a cliff or crash into trees constantly, and you would still only be able to scan a small area, plus the area you're looking at would be bouncing all over and constantly be obstructed by out-of-focus obstacles that you're walking into or past because you're functionally blind to your nearby environment. once he knows there's something to look at, sure, he can use telescopic vision... ie, after the fight has started he can probably spot them (or at least some of them) just fine unless they're exceptionally well-hidden. but there's a reason when you see someone looking through a telescope or binoculars, they aren't walking around very much while doing it. telescopic vision will help him find where he got ambushed from. it won't help him spot the ambush before it happens, and that is the most important thing anyways.

[kaid]

the amount of credits in Rifts Earth do not allow for the book prices for most Robots and Magic Items. Even if you half them, the prices would still be too high for what you get compared to Power Armors. Bots should be like 25% of book price, including Glitter Boys.

Based on what formula exactly?

Based on raw MDC you could say exactly the same thing about the cost of power armor compared to basic body armor.

The high cost of bots/PA are not based on that, they're based on sandwiching more personal power and mobility on a single operator or group.

I think an MDC wetsuit costs 25 thousand, so I could outfit a thousand vagabonds with that for the cost of a Glitter Boy and just have them dogpile the guy. The problem is they cost money to feed, they can run off with the wetsuits, the GB could simply outrun them, snipe them from afar, etc.

As someone pointed out in another thread, one big advantage of bots (moreso bigger ones) is that you can pilot them in shifts, sleep in them, not have to worry about environmental decontamination, etc. A UAR-1 or Behemoth is almost like a mobile home, albeit a cramped one.

It's like looking at the cost of the Explorer. That thing is mega-expensive (best first choice for a starting operator) for how little MDC it has. What you're paying for is basically the living space.

if everybody recognizes that all you have to do is sell your expensive bot and acquire 4 mercs to be your body guard or buy 7 power armors (one for each day of the week), nobody would even buy your bot cause they would be trying to do the same thing.

Until the guy who kept his Glitter Boy just annihilates all the guys relying on Samsons. Range is a big factor in combat if you have the intelligence to initiate combat with it. If you have speed to flee from stronger opponents, it lets you kill with low damage. If you have high damage, you can take out most opponents before they do close.

The Glitter Boy is the cheapest long-range killer I've ever seen. While it's true that missiles can eclipse them, missiles are much more expensive than rail gun ammo and can be shot down with cheaper missiles.

One nice thing in NG1 is they added a good number of support/exploration robot vehicles many of which have good living quarters. Take something like the okemos explorer or the bull dog. Both are pretty reasonable price for robot vehicles and have full featured sleep pods/sanitary facilities. Not luxurious but not even that cramped size wise. They also added sleeper bunks to many of even the bigger combat robots and really is one of the best selling points for a robot vehicle over power armor. Their combat speed is slower but given they can go at their crusing speed for days on end if you are driving them in shifts makes their speed on a strategic scale very impressive.

[Killer Cyborg]

- it isn't that permissive. it's not a touch range power, and it is probably a sensitive power (it's lesser cousin, machine ghost, certainly is).

Oh, sure. Letting invisible, intangible characters that fly at Mach 1 one-shot-negate suits of power armor doesn't affect balance in the slightest.
That's pretty much the same thing as letting them use empathy to get the gist of somebody's emotions.

But no, it's not a Sensitive psychic power. It's a Super psychic power. You can tell, because that's the category that it's listed in.
"Sensitive" is a category of minor psionics.

- you're right, it isn't glued. it's bolted on, most likely. gluing was used merely to reflect that it is attached, not how it is attached.

Actually, it's not really bolted either. It's attached via a kind of pivot that allows the gun to aim not only up and down, but also side-to-side, pretty much the same way that normal guns fire.
"Glued" and "Bolted" indicate a kind of inflexibility that is not indicated in the text or pictures, so those words skew things in the wrong direction.

- really? you can face your torso (not your head) straight backwards so that your shoulders are pointing behind you?

I can pivot to aim a rifle at more than 180 degrees without moving my feet.
No laws of physics make me keep my shoulders square during this turning around.
And what we're talking about is firing a weapon at somebody behind you, which is perfectly possible for normal human beings.

Do you seriously believe that it's NOT?

- yes, range should help against the guy with telescopic vision, because he can't be using it while walking.

It's hardly impossible for a HUD to have multiple screens, or zoom features along with a "walk-forward without stumbling" auto-pilot.
It's the type of thing that's perfectly possible in video games, and there's nothing that I'm aware of stating that it's impossible or unlikely in Rifts.
It seems to be entirely a GM"s call how and when the Telescopic vision works.

More importantly, why do you assume that he's walking ceaselessly, without pausing to scan for possible ambushes...?

[cosmicfish]

This thread has gotten pretty ridiculous.