Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling 'em..

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Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling 'em..

Unread post by Subjugator »

So I keep thinking about the ROI for the sales value of a Glitter Boy versus the ROI of keeping it, and I have to say a person would either have to be REALLY dedicated or be the owner of a mercenary company/army that profits a lot more than the predicted salary for such to actually keep one.

Prices:
New, undamaged GB: 25M+
Rebuilt GB without the gun: 15-20M+

Average salary for a GB pilot: <225K/year*
ROI from 15M credits invested: 1.5M/year**

So risk your life for 1/6 the salary or life in the lap of luxury for a LOT more money, safety, peace and quiet, and fun. You can even donate a fortune to the charity of your choice every year and STILL live incredibly well!

/Sub

*The RMB says they make just under what a Crazy makes and notes the Crazy as getting conversion (@ 350K) plus 120K a year for two years, so I figured the average as being (120K + ((350K * 1.15) / 2)), which is 120K (salary) + (350K in the quoted salary of a Crazy (~120K), plus the costs of conversion, plus 15% for the interest on the invested funds for the conversion)
**This is a pretty low ROI. I was less generous/more conservative with this and went with 10% instead of the more common 15-20%.
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Mack »

It's even worse if you use the suggested salaries in Mercenaries.

A GB pilot makes between +20% and +50% of a merc company's base pay (plus free maintenance & repairs). Looking at the pay options in the company creation rules, a fair salary is 500 credits/week. So 500 credits * 52 weeks * 135% (average of 20% & 50%) = 35,100 credits per year (plus maintenance/repairs).

I'll round off the sale of a GB to only $20M. At that price, the pilot can instantly receive about 571 years of salary.

But like I've said in the past: never mix Economics and Rifts, you'll go cross-eyed. :shock:
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Svartalf »

Wouldn't that be like a samurai selling his daisho?
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by flatline »

So, assuming you still wanted a good power armor to pilot, once you sell your GB, what do you replace it with?

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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Mack »

flatline wrote:So, assuming you still wanted a good power armor to pilot, once you sell your GB, what do you replace it with?

Fembots.
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

So you sell you power armor, and you retire to live a life of luxury, until you run into the bandit who didn't sell his.
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Athos »

Are you honestly expecting us to believe someone put some thought into the economics of Rifts? :) I just don't see it.

Looking for logic and science in RPGs is madness. They are supposed to be fun and in return you check your brain at the door and play by the writer's rules.

But yes, selling your GB and hiring 4 GBs to protect you and your money is a valid move in Rifts that nets you a profit, go figure.
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

Athos wrote:Are you honestly expecting us to believe someone put some thought into the economics of Rifts? :) I just don't see it.

Looking for logic and science in RPGs is madness. They are supposed to be fun and in return you check your brain at the door and play by the writer's rules.

But yes, selling your GB and hiring 4 GBs to protect you and your money is a valid move in Rifts that nets you a profit, go figure.


Work smarter not harder lol...you could even pay your mercs extra to let you pilot theirs whenever you want. :P
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Shark_Force »

it is worth noting that the amount mercs get paid is absurdly low (and doesn't allow for dramatic increases in the event that the merc company does not cover repairs and such, in spite of that representing a massive expense).

and that a glitter boy pilot could potentially earn a substantially larger amount than that if they're not working for a paycheck; they possess one of the few guns in the setting which can reliably one-shot snipe parts off a power armour (which is important, because the only time it's efficient to make an aimed called shot any more is before the enemy has noticed you, and you're only likely to get one shot before they do notice you), and can frequently do so from beyond the range at which an enemy can retaliate. or, in other words, it is fairly likely that you can kill or cause to surrender enemies that have large amounts of expensive gear by virtue of your superiority in armaments, which can represent significantly better ROI than being a mercenary.

but yeah, also the argument about economics in rifts being really bad is very true.
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Subjugator »

flatline wrote:So, assuming you still wanted a good power armor to pilot, once you sell your GB, what do you replace it with?

--flatline


Wild Weasel SAMAS? Samson? X10?

Lots of options out there that still leave you wealthy.

/Sub
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Subjugator »

Killer Cyborg wrote:So you sell you power armor, and you retire to live a life of luxury, until you run into the bandit who didn't sell his.


If you live in Lazlo or somewhere safe in the NGR you should be just fine.

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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by DhAkael »

I just ignore most of the suggested salaries and say what is given is for LIVING expenses. *shrug* As for actual up-keep and repairs / resupply? Why, that's what the GM meta-plot is used for. As the GM you can give as much or as little as you feel like the player(s) warrent, dependant on hostilities between polities / monster enclaves / etc. and where said GB is working out of (NG, Lazlo, Merc Town et-al).
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by eliakon »

This issue is not confined to Glitterboys.
Look at most of the OCCs equipment lists.....now convert that back into credits and you will find that a LOT of characters start out rather wealthy........
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Subjugator »

Yeah, but Glitter Boys seem to exemplify the issue.
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Nightmask »

Svartalf wrote:Wouldn't that be like a samurai selling his daisho?


Not everyone becoming a GB pilot necessarily wants to be one though. Some inherit and are raised up in 'the family business' whether they want to be or not. I remember someone on here stating he had a GB pilot (not certain it may have been forced on him in some fashion by the GM) except he had it's backstory be he really hated being forced into being one so soon as the game started he sold the GB and used the money to purchase a different power armor instead (and ticked off his GM at the same time).

Similarly someone could be raised up as a Samurai only to reject it as soon as he's able and sell off the diasho soon as he found a buyer. Not everyone respects their family history or what they inherit after all.
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Subjugator wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:So you sell you power armor, and you retire to live a life of luxury, until you run into the bandit who didn't sell his.


If you live in Lazlo or somewhere safe in the NGR you should be just fine.

/Sub


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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by cosmicfish »

Athos wrote:Are you honestly expecting us to believe someone put some thought into the economics of Rifts? :) I just don't see it.

Agreed. For a game that is supposed to be for "advanced" players, it has always struck me how little consideration was given to some things that are often very important to that exact demographic. But let's ignore that for a moment. Realistically, a GB pilot's income would potentially be a product of two factors: the difficulty and expense of getting GB pilots, and the expense of operating a GB (including risk).

I can't recall any canonical rules indicating how long it takes to train a GB pilot, or how much it costs, but given the prestige and combat effectiveness* of the unit it seems like GB pilots would almost always command top-dollar among RPA pilots - $2000 a week would not be unreasonable (compared to the terrible pay typically offered), and would be a little less than the salary actually offered to Crazies (per OP), not counting their conversion. If the pilot was operating a unit-owned GB, then this is likely all they would get.

If, on the other hand, the pilot actually owned his GB... then he would be able to demand an additional rate representing the maintenance and risk of operating the unit, plus reasonable profit. Exactly what those would be depends a lot on the actual usage of the unit, and may be negotiated as a flat fee or possibly with some variable factor. For example, a given unit might expect the pilot to be engaged in (on average), 1 combat mission per month, losing 200 MDC and expending 100 rounds of ammunition per mission, with a 2% probability of total loss**. If the contract values repair at 800 credits per MDC, ammo at 180 credits per round, and the GB itself to be worth 20M, then the cost of operation would be 200*800 + 100*180 + 0.02*20M = 578,000 credits per month!!! If the operator takes a 10% profit on top of that, then his modest salary would be supplemented by 57,800 credits per month.

This then gives the reason why someone would keep the armor. IF the pilot is a decent negotiator (or can hire one), and IF they can lower their costs and risks in relation to their contract, then that profit can go up even more. If our intrepid pilot has negotiated the above fixed contract with their employer but is able by virtue of skill to accomplish those monthly missions with half the risk of loss, half the average repair costs, and half the ammunition expenditure, then they get to pocket an extra 288,000 credits a month. Admittedly, if the unit has decent negotiators then it is far more likely that the pilot will be on the wrong end of those numbers, but that's the gamble - the owner/operator already makes faster money than simple investment would provide, and can, by virtue of skill, potentially increase those numbers through the roof. And GB pilots are precisely the kind of people to take those odds!

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**: Simplified, for convenience, to assume that these are the only factors - include your own if your choose.
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

I'd adjust the cost of rounds down to 20cr. And up the repair to 1000 per mdc. i think those are the actual numbers.

I don't find it absurd that a good GB pilot could make 500k+ a month, though.
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by cosmicfish »

Alrik Vas wrote:I'd adjust the cost of rounds down to 20cr. And up the repair to 1000 per mdc. i think those are the actual numbers.

Doesn't hugely change things, but the details would depend on the circumstances - who is paying, local costs, expected risk, etc. But if the job includes any real possibility of combat then there would be a LOT of money involved. 10% profit is definitely not too large, and may be substantially too small, so regardless, income as an owner/operator should be big.

Alrik Vas wrote:I don't find it absurd that a good GB pilot could make 500k+ a month, though.

Me neither. Although expenses would eat up a good chunk, and if you wanted to make it a career you would need to stash a good chunk away for that day when your suit needs to be replaced. Still, $50-60k clear would probably be on the low end.
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Glistam »

Mack wrote:It's even worse if you use the suggested salaries in Mercenaries.

A GB pilot makes between +20% and +50% of a merc company's base pay (plus free maintenance & repairs). Looking at the pay options in the company creation rules, a fair salary is 500 credits/week. So 500 credits * 52 weeks * 135% (average of 20% & 50%) = 35,100 credits per year (plus maintenance/repairs).

I'll round off the sale of a GB to only $20M. At that price, the pilot can instantly receive about 571 years of salary.

But like I've said in the past: never mix Economics and Rifts, you'll go cross-eyed. :shock:

Being overlooked here is the Free Maintenance and Repairs. I know it was mentioned but it bears repeating: the cost of repairs is significant and getting them handled for free is a major benefit not being considered. Anyone who relies on tech, such as Glitter Boy pilots, would be crazy to not include the "cost" of repairs, re-supplying, and maintenance in any contract they agree too.

Killer Cyborg wrote:So you sell you power armor, and you retire to live a life of luxury, until you run into the bandit who didn't sell his.

:lol:

In all fairness though, Rifts is supposed to be a world where barter is the more major form of currency exchange. I've always seen the price lists and costs of items as points of reference for players and G.M.'s when bartering for goods or services.
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Glistam »

Power armor and giant robots may be incredibly expensive compared to other forms of augmentation, but they are also much safer than Juicer conversion, Crazy implants or Bionics. These other options cost the augmentee some of his Humanity in exchange for power. With a suit of power armor there is no "cost" to the user. You don your armor, enjoy your augmentation, and take it off when you don't need it in order to go back to being a completely (relatively) normal human. That's a benefit which is also overlooked in these costs.
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by cosmicfish »

Glistam wrote:Being overlooked here is the Free Maintenance and Repairs. I know it was mentioned but it bears repeating: the cost of repairs is significant and getting them handled for free is a major benefit not being considered. Anyone who relies on tech, such as Glitter Boy pilots, would be crazy to not include the "cost" of repairs, re-supplying, and maintenance in any contract they agree too.

Sure... but that isn't the only cost. I noted a risk factor above, and was very serious about that. Free repairs and ammo is all well and good, but what about when things get really hot and your beloved 20 megacredit suit is effectively destroyed? Does the unit compensate you for the loss? Do they buy a new one?

From a mercenary point of view, all that equipment is an investment, and return on that investment has to figure into the decision. Mercenaries are in it to make money, and if the return on the investment is smaller than they can make other ways... they'll do something else with that money!

Glistam wrote:In all fairness though, Rifts is supposed to be a world where barter is the more major form of currency exchange. I've always seen the price lists and costs of items as points of reference for players and G.M.'s when bartering for goods or services.

I always took that as one of those assumptions that was made in the initial rulebook that just didn't hold up over time. The economies are simply too big and diverse for there not to be currency in place. Now barter is still going to be a big issue going between some[I] of those economies - it is unlikely that any legitimate CS retailer is going to take any non-CS currency (except perhaps Triax), but Atlantis and the Black Market will probably have exchange rates for everyone simply because they are going to be doing business with people in just about every culture. Likewise, there will always be situations where the supply of currency is not up to the needs of the transaction, but even if the village [I]doesn't have enough credits to buy the GB odds are good that they still use small quantities so that they can more easily trade with the outside world.

Remember also that barter is a tremendous pain for everyone involved. Given the concept of money and the presence of powers able to issue a secure currency, barter will almost always be a secondary means of exchange.
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by cosmicfish »

Glistam wrote:Power armor and giant robots may be incredibly expensive compared to other forms of augmentation, but they are also much safer than Juicer conversion, Crazy implants or Bionics. These other options cost the augmentee some of his Humanity in exchange for power. With a suit of power armor there is no "cost" to the user. You don your armor, enjoy your augmentation, and take it off when you don't need it in order to go back to being a completely (relatively) normal human. That's a benefit which is also overlooked in these costs.

Sure... but that explains the value only in the purely selfish are of self-defense. It does nothing to explain why a private individual would incur those costs as part of a business venture. I might spend a ton of money on a fancy car for myself to fulfill my own personal desires, but if I am buying a car to use as a taxi then the cost of that car compared to the price I can charge is a very real and important calculation. If I'm chauffeuring people around in a $500k Rolls Royce, I need to be making a lot more than 2x what the Chevy drivers make, even if someone else is paying for gas and repairs!
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

Well, you have to remember also that the majority of glitterboy pilots in games didn't pay for their suits. They were starting gear, and in-game, they were an inheritance.
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by cosmicfish »

Alrik Vas wrote:Well, you have to remember also that the majority of glitterboy pilots in games didn't pay for their suits. They were starting gear, and in-game, they were an inheritance.

That doesn't really change anything. Assuming that GB sales are user-to-user and not user-to-retailer or retailer-to user (i.e., ignoring resale costs and profit), then it makes no difference whether we consider someone with the option of selling for 20 million or someone with 20 million and the option to buy. In either case there are two paths to be considered - one where the individual has the money and one where the user has the suit, and transitioning between the two paths is simply a matter of locating a buyer or seller.
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by kaid »

Mack wrote:It's even worse if you use the suggested salaries in Mercenaries.

A GB pilot makes between +20% and +50% of a merc company's base pay (plus free maintenance & repairs). Looking at the pay options in the company creation rules, a fair salary is 500 credits/week. So 500 credits * 52 weeks * 135% (average of 20% & 50%) = 35,100 credits per year (plus maintenance/repairs).

I'll round off the sale of a GB to only $20M. At that price, the pilot can instantly receive about 571 years of salary.

But like I've said in the past: never mix Economics and Rifts, you'll go cross-eyed. :shock:



Yup for any of the power armor/robot vehicle pilots typically if any of them cashed out even on lower end power armor they could be set for life if they chose not to adventure. For those not directly part of a large military force like the CS, Triax or a large enough merc company to supply you with a mech clearly money is not their motivator.

The salaries make reasonable sense if somebody else is covering the supply of the armor/weapons/repair bills. But for an independent contractor they don't make a lick of sense unless in your merc contract repair/rearmaments and upkeep costs for your equipment is separate from your salary.
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Shark_Force »

even if repairs and such are covered it doesn't make much sense unless the suit doesn't belong to you personally. for you to risk the loss of your suit should require that you paid enough that, on average, you will be able to save up enough money to buy a new suit in the event that your current one is lost.

and for the outfits where repairs and ammunition are *not* covered it gets even more stupid to try and follow the official numbers.

of course, on the flip side of things, i also advocate the hiring of mercenaries to be dramatically more expensive too. the second your contract incorporates a significant chance for someone to get a single 2d6 laser shot off, the amount of money you need to offer should include the cost of repairing 7 MD, which according to the official numbers is a pretty large chunk of change; a group of 10 mercs are going to look at your offer of 10k credits to track down a 'borg and tell you to stick it where the sun don't shine, because they'd have to be complete and utter morons to take on that level of risk for such low pay.
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Virilitas »

The main point here is if you take your family inheritance and sell it to quit the family business and retire I hope you have a safe place to go and also time to make a new character.
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by kaid »

eliakon wrote:This issue is not confined to Glitterboys.
Look at most of the OCCs equipment lists.....now convert that back into credits and you will find that a LOT of characters start out rather wealthy........



Yes this leads to the running gag of nearly every character especially a tech one in my campaigns winds up being a deserter. Because its almost impossible to figure out how they would otherwise have this huge amount of high end stuff as a level 1 guy other than maybe the hereditary GB pilot.
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

Shameless self promotion to encapsulate the situation:

Operation Natural 20 wrote:“The job’s simple, like I told you at the briefing. Patrol up to Duluth, set the bombs and collapse the center stem, bring the damned thing down and show them bugs we don’t appreciate their kind, ya hear? 20k for each of you, plus bounties of any heads you collect.”

The group nodded, the GB-10 even popped it’s robo-hands together like it was cracking it’s knuckles.

I did math in my head…okay, that’s a lie. You don’t need math for this.

“Are you #$@*()#*@ insane!? There are whores in Chi-Town worth more than 20k an hour and you want us to go into the @#*)%# Duluth hive and bring it down for that? What kind of slag are you?” That came out more eloquent than I’d planned. I must be getting nice or something.

“Now see here, maggot—“

“To hell with see here. Do you even KNOW what it costs to repair armor? Reload mags? Buy new gear? Plus there’s risk, 20k…” I spat on the ground, flicked my cigarette at Tool as I pointed at him. “…only a complete idiot of a GM who hates his players would cook up an adventure like this.”

He folded his arms, “I don’t put my players up against anything they can’t handle.”

“And the money?”

Tool scratched the back of his shaved head, “Maybe…I…I can pay for your ammunition and repairs.”

I stepped forward, “Throwing us a bone, huh? You think that’s going to work? GM retcon already? Can someone…SOMEONE…PLEASE THINK ABOUT THE BIG PICTURE…”
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Subjugator »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Subjugator wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:So you sell you power armor, and you retire to live a life of luxury, until you run into the bandit who didn't sell his.


If you live in Lazlo or somewhere safe in the NGR you should be just fine.

/Sub


And in America, you can trust the cops to protect you.
So who needs their own gun?
;)


I didn't say he shouldn't have ANYTHING, but there aren't pitched battles in the streets of Lazlo.

/Sub
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Subjugator wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Subjugator wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:So you sell you power armor, and you retire to live a life of luxury, until you run into the bandit who didn't sell his.


If you live in Lazlo or somewhere safe in the NGR you should be just fine.

/Sub


And in America, you can trust the cops to protect you.
So who needs their own gun?
;)


I didn't say he shouldn't have ANYTHING, but there aren't pitched battles in the streets of Lazlo.

/Sub


There weren't in Tolkeen either, once upon a time.
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Subjugator »

If they start, the former GB pilot can...*gasp*...move.
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Subjugator wrote:If they start, the former GB pilot can...*gasp*...move.


Yup.
And wouldn't it be nice to have a GB to lift the heavy boxes?

(Or, you know, just to have in case you have to move someplace less safe?)
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by eliakon »

Subjugator wrote:If they start, the former GB pilot can...*gasp*...move.

Moving in Rifts seems to be a bit harder than in the modern world....but to be fair if your nation is falling apart in war and flames not having a suit of power armor is probably NOT going to be the top of your problems list.....
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Subjugator »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Subjugator wrote:If they start, the former GB pilot can...*gasp*...move.


Yup.
And wouldn't it be nice to have a GB to lift the heavy boxes?

(Or, you know, just to have in case you have to move someplace less safe?)


They can get another suit of power armor and still have many millions left over. Personally, I'd get converted to a 'Borg.

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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Kagashi »

Athos wrote:Are you honestly expecting us to believe someone put some thought into the economics of Rifts? :) I just don't see it.

Looking for logic and science in RPGs is madness. They are supposed to be fun and in return you check your brain at the door and play by the writer's rules.

But yes, selling your GB and hiring 4 GBs to protect you and your money is a valid move in Rifts that nets you a profit, go figure.


Merc: Thanks mister, I really needed this gig, I just took out a loan and bought this Glitter Boy and its going to take me 571 years to pay it off.
Smart Guy: No problem, Im rolling in cash right now.
Merc: Well, here she is, this baby will be one of four whom will keep you protected...say how did you get so much cash anyway?
Smart Guy: Cool, thats my old ride! (points to the Merc's newly acquired Glitter Boy)
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Updated Aug 2015
-Rifts: Dark Woods/Deep South, Space 110 PA, Scandinavia
-Mechanoids: Space (MDC)
-Robotech: Errata for Marines timeline, Masters Deluxe with SC and UEEF gear, Spaceships
-Updated Errata for post-2006 printings of Rifts books
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Subjugator wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Subjugator wrote:If they start, the former GB pilot can...*gasp*...move.


Yup.
And wouldn't it be nice to have a GB to lift the heavy boxes?

(Or, you know, just to have in case you have to move someplace less safe?)


They can get another suit of power armor and still have many millions left over. Personally, I'd get converted to a 'Borg.

/Sub


I'd save that for old age, if I could.

And yes, they could well get different power armor. Or a robot vehicle, perhaps.
But I can see why they might choose to just keep the GB instead.
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by smashed »

This seems to have a lot of assumption about the cost of living in luxury and safety on Rifts Earth and the potential for reliable investments.
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Shark_Force »

smashed wrote:This seems to have a lot of assumption about the cost of living in luxury and safety on Rifts Earth and the potential for reliable investments.

clearly you haven't read the rules for investing in a black market business. iirc (from what others have posted), on average you've made back your investment within 6 months. which is completely ridiculous and ought to leave you wondering why in hang the black market would let anyone else get in on their obscenely profitable business, because they shouldn't need investors when they can simply reinvest their own profits and roughly double in size every year.
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by flatline »

Shark_Force wrote:
smashed wrote:This seems to have a lot of assumption about the cost of living in luxury and safety on Rifts Earth and the potential for reliable investments.

clearly you haven't read the rules for investing in a black market business. iirc (from what others have posted), on average you've made back your investment within 6 months. which is completely ridiculous and ought to leave you wondering why in hang the black market would let anyone else get in on their obscenely profitable business, because they shouldn't need investors when they can simply reinvest their own profits and roughly double in size every year.


Where is all the demand coming from that allows the BM to have such high margins?

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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by eliakon »

Shark_Force wrote:
smashed wrote:This seems to have a lot of assumption about the cost of living in luxury and safety on Rifts Earth and the potential for reliable investments.

clearly you haven't read the rules for investing in a black market business. iirc (from what others have posted), on average you've made back your investment within 6 months. which is completely ridiculous and ought to leave you wondering why in hang the black market would let anyone else get in on their obscenely profitable business, because they shouldn't need investors when they can simply reinvest their own profits and roughly double in size every year.

And yet more evidence of the complete break down of economic reality in rifts......looks like its not just the laws of physics that get mangled, the Rifts are equal opportunity natural law breakers. :bandit:
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Subjugator »

smashed wrote:This seems to have a lot of assumption about the cost of living in luxury and safety on Rifts Earth and the potential for reliable investments.


Depends on where you are, but there is a good deal of potential for reliable investments. For example, Wilk's and Northern Gun are both very successful businesses. Similarly, Center has tremendous opportunity for investment.

/Sub
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Shark_Force »

flatline wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:
smashed wrote:This seems to have a lot of assumption about the cost of living in luxury and safety on Rifts Earth and the potential for reliable investments.

clearly you haven't read the rules for investing in a black market business. iirc (from what others have posted), on average you've made back your investment within 6 months. which is completely ridiculous and ought to leave you wondering why in hang the black market would let anyone else get in on their obscenely profitable business, because they shouldn't need investors when they can simply reinvest their own profits and roughly double in size every year.


Where is all the demand coming from that allows the BM to have such high margins?

--flatline


if i knew that, i'd be doubling my money every six months and be filthy stinking rich.
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Athos »

So how long would it take if you sold your GB, hired 4 GBs to protect you, invested all the money in the Black Market, and then when you doubled your initial 25 million credits, you bought back your GB? Then you could retire with 25 million credits, a GB and 4 GB protectors :)

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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Kagashi »

The real question is...does the economy of Rifts even support such high end prices for gear?
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-Rifts: Dark Woods/Deep South, Space 110 PA, Scandinavia
-Mechanoids: Space (MDC)
-Robotech: Errata for Marines timeline, Masters Deluxe with SC and UEEF gear, Spaceships
-Updated Errata for post-2006 printings of Rifts books
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by cosmicfish »

Athos wrote:So how long would it take if you sold your GB, hired 4 GBs to protect you, invested all the money in the Black Market, and then when you doubled your initial 25 million credits, you bought back your GB? Then you could retire with 25 million credits, a GB and 4 GB protectors :)


If you are paying the GB pilots 20k a month and seeing a rate of return of 12.2% a month (corresponding to doubling every 6 months), then it takes 8 months. If you are paying them 600k a month then it takes 20 months. As long as they are each being paid less than 765,388 credits a month, you will still make money according to these ridiculous rules.

That is assuming, of course, that your investments were sufficiently diverse that you got dividends on a monthly basis, of course. If you are actually only getting a return every 6 months then you can double your original investment (allowing you to repurchase your original suit and still have 25+ million credits) in a year paying them 20k a month, and you can only pay each up to 520,833 credits a month if you want a profit.
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by cosmicfish »

Kagashi wrote:The real question is...does the economy of Rifts even support such high end prices for gear?

Absolutely not. Mercenaries would have to steal and/or loot to supplement their income. There is no way the monetary rewards included in the Mercenaries books or in most adventures could possibly pay for the equipment many characters keep, including but certainly not limited to GB's.
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by Kagashi »

cosmicfish wrote:
Kagashi wrote:The real question is...does the economy of Rifts even support such high end prices for gear?

Absolutely not. Mercenaries would have to steal and/or loot to supplement their income. There is no way the monetary rewards included in the Mercenaries books or in most adventures could possibly pay for the equipment many characters keep, including but certainly not limited to GB's.


Yes, thats exactly my point. If nobody actually has this amount of cash, the prices wouldnt be so high. The price of any item is what somebody is willing, or able, to pay. Simply put, the amount of credits in Rifts Earth do not allow for the book prices for most Robots and Magic Items. Even if you half them, the prices would still be too high for what you get compared to Power Armors. Bots should be like 25% of book price, including Glitter Boys.

Simply put, anybody with the basic math skill would be able to see the proposals above. Presumably, if you had this kind of cash sitting around, you wouldnt be somebody without the basic math skill anyway. So if everybody recognizes that all you have to do is sell your expensive bot and acquire 4 mercs to be your body guard or buy 7 power armors (one for each day of the week), nobody would even buy your bot cause they would be trying to do the same thing. So the price drops to 15M credits. Still nobody bites, and people are still running around with their original GBs and the price drops further until somebody breaks and decides that the price is fair for what they can get elsewhere. Now, you sell for 5M cr. and all of a sudden, you cannot afford to get all your power armors or hired mercs for the next 571 years like you originally planned.

If BGs were only 5 Million and SAMAS were still 1.8 Million, that would be more comparable to capabilities. And 5 Million is still quite a chunk of change that the average vagabond or even professional merc would have to struggle to acquire. Heck, even shops whom would be buying your bot for 35%-50% of the going price would struggle to be able to buy that off of you AND turn it for a profit. They certainly are not going to buy it from you for 10M Cr. and put it on the shelf for 20M Cr. while nobody can even come close to buying it.

Rifts pawn shops must be flooded with used Bots that nobody can afford to buy, and they must also be absolutely loaded to buy it from the player characters. They are the 1%. And they dont care if they spend money apparently.
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Updated Aug 2015
-Rifts: Dark Woods/Deep South, Space 110 PA, Scandinavia
-Mechanoids: Space (MDC)
-Robotech: Errata for Marines timeline, Masters Deluxe with SC and UEEF gear, Spaceships
-Updated Errata for post-2006 printings of Rifts books
-Searchable, quality PDFs/E-pubs of current Rifts titles
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Re: Glitter Boys and the ROI of keeping 'em versus selling '

Unread post by flatline »

Perhaps it's time to start a new thread for the larger discussion of "where does the money come from to support book prices?" and let this thread continue without being derailed.

--flatline
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