Wired Gunslinger Auto Dodge bonuses

[Kagashi]

Can anybody with a Shadow Update version of New West verify for me what the Auto dodge bonuses have been changed to for the Wired Gunslinger? Same as the RUE crazy? +1 at 1, 2, 6, 9, 12 and 15?

[Tor]

My approach has always been that unless they explicitly get replacement bonuses, continue to use all normal dodge bonuses

[H.P. Hovercraft]

My approach has always been that unless they explicitly get replacement bonuses, continue to use all normal dodge bonuses

This.

Especially since (although the procedures used are very similar) a Crazy and a Wired Gunslinger are two very different critters; the end results produce two very different super beings.

[H.P. Hovercraft]

TBH I've always felt that the Wired Gunslinger was rather lackluster compared to a conventional Crazy, and when a player in one of our games wanted to play one we ended up homebrewing a compromise between the two classes to better reflect (in our opinions) the discrepancies between them.

<In game terms, you're almost better off going with a regular Crazy with both Quick Draw and Sharpshooting WP's than with the WG OCC>

AFAIK there haven't been any "shadow updates" to the WG class (though my copy of New West is pre-RUE). That said, a level-based increase to auto-dodge (which the WG normally doesn't have) doesn't seem too unrealistic (especially since the WG is essentially based off the Crazy's MOM procedure). On the flip side, like I said above, the two classes (stat wise) are very different beasts, so the bonuses for one don't necessarily always apply to the other.

All in all.............just bring it up with your GM (unless you ARE the GM). A class like the WG which is based off of reflexes and reaction times (essentially the core basis of the OCC) having an extra +2 or +3 to their auto-dodge doesn't really feel like a game-breaker to me.

Post-RUE, a lot of the OCC's in the books are in need of a polish (or were just never fleshed out enough to begin with, but I digress), and the Wired Gunslinger receiving a mild boost to their dodge abilities is a minor consideration.

[Kagashi]

My approach has always been that unless they explicitly get replacement bonuses, continue to use all normal dodge bonuses

This.

Especially since (although the procedures used are very similar) a Crazy and a Wired Gunslinger are two very different critters; the end results produce two very different super beings.

The above is irrelevant. There is a Shadow Update, which is the most recent printing, which is canon. Everything else is moot. Especially since the RUE-era Shadow Updates explicitly give auto-dodge bonuses in place of RMB blanket "auto dodge" abilities.

[Tor]

To get technical, HU2 is the book with more explicit 'in place of' or 'don't use the normal' type text, I don't think RUE has it.

[Dog_O_War]

To get technical, HU2 is the book with more explicit 'in place of' or 'don't use the normal' type text, I don't think RUE has it.

To get SUPER technical, HU2 does not have its rules apply to Rifts.

[eliakon]

To get technical, HU2 is the book with more explicit 'in place of' or 'don't use the normal' type text, I don't think RUE has it.

To get SUPER technical, HU2 does not have its rules apply to Rifts.

Not to mention that RUE page 344 explicitly states that Autododge only gets bonuses from PP and any bonuses specifically for it.

[Kagashi]

To get technical, HU2 is the book with more explicit 'in place of' or 'don't use the normal' type text, I don't think RUE has it.

To get SUPER technical, HU2 does not have its rules apply to Rifts.

Not to mention that RUE page 344 explicitly states that Autododge only gets bonuses from PP and any bonuses specifically for it.

Correct, so using a pre-Shadow Update book with RUE mean the Wired Gunslinger gets the Auto Dodge ability with a bonus of +zero (plus PP bonuses), as opposed to what the Shadow Update version of New West actually says.

[Slight001]

To get technical, HU2 is the book with more explicit 'in place of' or 'don't use the normal' type text, I don't think RUE has it.

To get SUPER technical, HU2 does not have its rules apply to Rifts.

Not to mention that RUE page 344 explicitly states that Autododge only gets bonuses from PP and any bonuses specifically for it.

Correct, so using a pre-Shadow Update book with RUE mean the Wired Gunslinger gets the Auto Dodge ability with a bonus of +zero (plus PP bonuses), as opposed to what the Shadow Update version of New West actually says.

youre certain that new west was shadow updated?

[Tor]

RUE page 344 explicitly states that Autododge only gets bonuses from PP and any bonuses specifically for it.

Sorry but this is wrong, only HU2 has text like that. You made up the word "only", it doesn't occur within Autododge's description on RUEp344

It says 2 key things:
*Roll for the dodge as normal
*Bonuses to auto-dodge come from the character's PP attribute and any bonus specifically for it

"As normal" to me means you still use normal dodge bonuses. The bonus from PP is a reminder, and the specific-bonus thing in no way means "bonuses not specifically for auto do not apply".

I get how some can read it that way based on the more specific precedent set by HU2. If you compare the language you can see it has more specific an exclusionary language.

[Kagashi]

To get technical, HU2 is the book with more explicit 'in place of' or 'don't use the normal' type text, I don't think RUE has it.

To get SUPER technical, HU2 does not have its rules apply to Rifts.

Not to mention that RUE page 344 explicitly states that Autododge only gets bonuses from PP and any bonuses specifically for it.

Correct, so using a pre-Shadow Update book with RUE mean the Wired Gunslinger gets the Auto Dodge ability with a bonus of +zero (plus PP bonuses), as opposed to what the Shadow Update version of New West actually says.

youre certain that new west was shadow updated?

Since I don't own it, and no store actually carries Palladium products anymore so I can browse, and Palladium themselves simply will not post errata...no I do not. Hoping somebody out there would confirm that.

[Mechghost]

RUE page 344 explicitly states that Autododge only gets bonuses from PP and any bonuses specifically for it.

Sorry but this is wrong, only HU2 has text like that. You made up the word "only", it doesn't occur within Autododge's description on RUEp344

It says 2 key things:
*Roll for the dodge as normal
*Bonuses to auto-dodge come from the character's PP attribute and any bonus specifically for it

"As normal" to me means you still use normal dodge bonuses. The bonus from PP is a reminder, and the specific-bonus thing in no way means "bonuses not specifically for auto do not apply".

I get how some can read it that way based on the more specific precedent set by HU2. If you compare the language you can see it has more specific an exclusionary language.

Actually if you read the quoted line you used Tor,

*Bonuses to auto-dodge come from the character's PP attribute and any bonus specifically for it

bonuses for the auto-dodge are PP bonuses (that's clear) and any bonus "specifically" for "it" -- so only listed bonuses for it, the it being auto-dodge in the statement, so regular dodge bonuses would not apply, only those listed specifically as auto-dodge.

[eliakon]

RUE page 344 explicitly states that Autododge only gets bonuses from PP and any bonuses specifically for it.

Sorry but this is wrong, only HU2 has text like that. You made up the word "only", it doesn't occur within Autododge's description on RUEp344

It says 2 key things:
*Roll for the dodge as normal
*Bonuses to auto-dodge come from the character's PP attribute and any bonus specifically for it

"As normal" to me means you still use normal dodge bonuses. The bonus from PP is a reminder, and the specific-bonus thing in no way means "bonuses not specifically for auto do not apply".

I get how some can read it that way based on the more specific precedent set by HU2. If you compare the language you can see it has more specific an exclusionary language.

The exact line is "Bonuses to auto-dodge come from the character's P.P. Attribute and any special bonuses specifically for it (the bonus, skill or enhancement will say "automatic dodge")"
How much clearer does it get? It out right says that only bonuses that say Automatic Dodge add. So Dodge bonuses do NOT add (they do not say "automatic dodge")
And as for 'roll as normal' that is pure mechanics....you roll the normal mechanics of a dodge (roll 1d20 Add the applicable bonus, beat the other persons roll) When it then says what those bonuses are that tells us...what the bonuses are!

[Tor]

if you read the quoted line you used Tor

I assure you I did read it as I transcribed it for you.

Bonuses to auto-dodge come from the character's PP attribute and any bonus specifically for it

bonuses for the auto-dodge are PP bonuses (that's clear) and any bonus "specifically" for "it"

so only listed bonuses for it

I bolded the portions of your paraphrasing where you altered the meaning of the original statement.

Saying bonuses come from something is not saying that those sources of bonuses are the entirety of what composes a bonus pool.

There is nothing in that RUE text to convey the idea that "only" those bonuses count. HU2 on the other hand, clearly does take the required extra step.

regular dodge bonuses would not apply, only those listed specifically as auto-dodge.

That is not stated there. This would also contract being instructed to "roll to dodge as normal" which would mean to include regular dodge bonuses.

HU2p67 lacks the "roll as normal" statement and also says explicitly:

"only the automatic dodge bonuses and his PP attribute bonuses are used"
"automatic dodge and regular dodge bonuses are not cumulative"

You really do gotta say something like that, or autoD gets the D.

and then RUE Juicers were better auto-dodgers than super-speedsters and I'm not even mad.

The exact line is

Bonuses to auto-dodge come from the character's P.P. Attribute and any special bonuses specifically for it (the bonus, skill or enhancement will say "automatic dodge")

It out right says that only bonuses that say Automatic Dodge add.

No, it doesn't, if you'll check what you just wrote, the word 'only' does not appear, you just added it in.

The parenthesis is just telling us what "bonuses specifically for it" means. It is not telling us that only specifically-for-it bonuses are added.

When it then says what those bonuses are that tells us...what the bonuses are!

If I tell you apples oranges are fruits, that does not mean I am telling you there are only 2 kinds of fruit. I think I've brought this analogy up on another thread the last time it came up...

How much clearer does it get?

See the above quotes from HU2, that's clear.

[Kagashi]

Okay...it is clear how Auto Dodge in RUE works, which is why I asked the question. The next post better be about the OP on if/what the Shadow Update actually says.

[Dog_O_War]

Tor is wrong about autododge, period.

When the word-formula is "autododge = X + Y" there is no possibility for other bonuses. The bonuses are X + Y (PP + autododge bonuses).


As for this whole "Shadow Update" thing, it appears nobody has the book.

But this is the sort of thing that an actual errata thread would have, not the non-canon pile of junk this board currently purports.

[Mechghost]

Sorry can't say for OP, I have the "old" version

[H.P. Hovercraft]

My approach has always been that unless they explicitly get replacement bonuses, continue to use all normal dodge bonuses

This.

Especially since (although the procedures used are very similar) a Crazy and a Wired Gunslinger are two very different critters; the end results produce two very different super beings.

The above is irrelevant. There is a Shadow Update, which is the most recent printing, which is canon. Everything else is moot. Especially since the RUE-era Shadow Updates explicitly give auto-dodge bonuses in place of RMB blanket "auto dodge" abilities.

I'm confused. First (in the OP) you were ASKING if anyone had a "shadow update" on the WG's auto-dodge bonuses. Now you're saying that the "Shadow Updates explicitly give auto-dodge bonuses." No one here (including myself) has offered up anything in regards to a newer printing, so I'm not sure where you're getting your info on new auto-dodge bonuses from...............wasn't that your question in your OP?

You say, "There is a Shadow Update," yet no one seems to have one to give validation to your claims.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that the WG could use an update instead of using the blanket auto-dodge rules, but as far as I know one has yet to be printed (and again, wasn't that the main question of your OP? If there was one?)

[Kagashi]

My approach has always been that unless they explicitly get replacement bonuses, continue to use all normal dodge bonuses

This.

Especially since (although the procedures used are very similar) a Crazy and a Wired Gunslinger are two very different critters; the end results produce two very different super beings.

The above is irrelevant. There is a Shadow Update, which is the most recent printing, which is canon. Everything else is moot. Especially since the RUE-era Shadow Updates explicitly give auto-dodge bonuses in place of RMB blanket "auto dodge" abilities.

I'm confused. First (in the OP) you were ASKING if anyone had a "shadow update" on the WG's auto-dodge bonuses. Now you're saying that the "Shadow Updates explicitly give auto-dodge bonuses." No one here (including myself) has offered up anything in regards to a newer printing, so I'm not sure where you're getting your info on new auto-dodge bonuses from...............wasn't that your question in your OP?

You say, "There is a Shadow Update," yet no one seems to have one to give validation to your claims.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that the WG could use an update instead of using the blanket auto-dodge rules, but as far as I know one has yet to be printed (and again, wasn't that the main question of your OP? If there was one?)

The Shadow Updates started in 2007. It's 2015. Surly they got around to WB14 by now. But who knows? Palladium does not offer up that information and keeps us guessing, which is why I asked the question.

Shadow Updates are post-2006 printings of world books (and I assume source books and dimension books) which Palladium announces are "back in print" in their press releases. I am pretty sure Ive seen WB14 was "back in print" since then, but unfortunately the archives only goes back to 2014, and Kevin has specifically told me he is against posting which ones have been updated (for fear of players assuming they have to buy the new books...even though there are plenty of us who WANT to) forcing fans who actually want to know to ask on the forums.

So, to curb thread hijacking on how auto dodge works as a game mechanic, the only two acceptable answers are, "there isnt one yet", or "the bonuses in the 20xx printing are XYZ". I'm not looking for approaches. I'm not looking for opinions. I'm looking for facts.

[Slight001]

Hmm if money wasn't rather tight this month I'd consider getting a copy, but I've already burned my flex cash for the next few weeks.

[Tor]

Tor is wrong about autododge, period.

Double-period?

When the word-formula is "autododge = X + Y" there is no possibility for other bonuses. The bonuses are X + Y (PP + autododge bonuses).

The formula you just made up does not accurately represent RUE's text, which only tells us that bonuses 'come from' sources A and B, not that there is no C.

HU2 is explicit, RUE was probably intended to be but Siembieda failed to implement it with words like Breaux did.

[Dog_O_War]

Tor is wrong about autododge, period.

Double-period?

When the word-formula is "autododge = X + Y" there is no possibility for other bonuses. The bonuses are X + Y (PP + autododge bonuses).

The formula you just made up does not accurately represent RUE's text, which only tells us that bonuses 'come from' sources A and B, not that there is no C.

HU2 is explicit, RUE was probably intended to be but Siembieda failed to implement it with words like Breaux did.

I'm not going to harp on you for your disability here, but this is something I would normally facepalm.

Instead, I will explain it to you:

No, that is not a "double-period", that is the word 'period' followed by punctuation, which just so happens to be a ".".

And formulas do not tell you what they do not contain, because they instead tell you what they do contain. For example, "2+2=4" need not tell you that it does not contain a +5-5+0 because it does not contain them. You get the same answer, but that is simply not the same formula.

To put said examples together:

'2+2=4'
'2+2+5-5-0=4'

These formulas give the same answer, but they are not the same.

The formula presented in R:UE is accurately represented in the method I've described, and does not reflect your sentiment that "C" exists or is a possibility; the formula is not written that way.

[Tor]

You keep stating that a formula was introduced in RUE, but it was presented as a verbal description, not a mathematical formula.

You are effectively trying to introduce limits that do not exist in the text based upon mathematical policies applied to a formula you made up to approximate it.

[eliakon]

You keep stating that a formula was introduced in RUE, but it was presented as a verbal description, not a mathematical formula.

You are effectively trying to introduce limits that do not exist in the text based upon mathematical policies applied to a formula you made up to approximate it.

I don't think that we are going to settle the debate here on how autododge works.
And honestly this isn't the place for it. The OP ask a question...and arguing a rules mechanic has nothing to do with answering that question.

[Dog_O_War]

You keep stating that a formula was introduced in RUE, but it was presented as a verbal description, not a mathematical formula.

Again, as respect for your disability, I will explain.

"two plus two equals four" is a mathematical formula written in the English language. It is the same as "2+2=4", which is written in the universal language [of math].

It is not a "verbal description"; it is "a formula written in English".

You are effectively trying to introduce limits that do not exist in the text based upon mathematical policies applied to a formula you made up to approximate it.

I am doing no such thing.
I am taking the information as written; as presented.

Additionally, please address your claim about the "formula (I) made up"; quote the text, verbatim, and show me and everyone where I have deviated. Otherwise I would ask that you remain silent on the matter.

Or in plain English; put up or shut up.

Warning: Warning issued. Mack

[Kagashi]

Got from a reliable source New West has not received a Shadow Update. So, canonically the answer to my question is, "there is no Shadow Update." (Why Palladium cant make this public information is beyond me.) This means according to RAW in RUE, the Wired Gunslinger gets the Auto Dodge ability, but with no OCC bonus, plus what ever PP bonus to dodge (until a Shadow Update comes out).

[Dog_O_War]

Got from a reliable source New West has not received a Shadow Update. So, canonically the answer to my question is, "there is no Shadow Update." (Why Palladium cant make this public information is beyond me.) This means according to RAW in RUE, the Wired Gunslinger gets the Auto Dodge ability, but with no OCC bonus, plus what ever PP bonus to dodge (until a Shadow Update comes out).

That's still pretty decent, given that they have a minimum PP of 18 and can take HtH:Commando.

[Kagashi]

Got from a reliable source New West has not received a Shadow Update. So, canonically the answer to my question is, "there is no Shadow Update." (Why Palladium cant make this public information is beyond me.) This means according to RAW in RUE, the Wired Gunslinger gets the Auto Dodge ability, but with no OCC bonus, plus what ever PP bonus to dodge (until a Shadow Update comes out).

That's still pretty decent, given that they have a minimum PP of 18 and can take HtH:Commando.

Agreed, but when a Shadow comes out, Id expect them to have higher specific OCC bonuses other then just the ability to do so.