North American counter CS Alliance(s)

[ShadowLogan]

Rifts WB11 CWC does suggest that the only way for small kingdom/states to survive being absorbed into the CS eventually is to join forces in a counter alliance as their individual armies don't have the numbers to realistically compete with the CS as they only have 15,000 people on the high end of the scale.

"Except for a few notable exceptions, like Tolkeen and Free Quebec, the nations surrounding the CS have armies of about 5000-15000, sometimes less- nothing compared to the nearly one million Coalition Soldiers ready for combat"-pg42 left column, 3rd paragraph about 1/4th way in.

"If the Coalition states is successful in these campaigns, the small kingdoms of North American will have to unite and build an army to match the Coalition or perish in the birth of the exploding human empire"-pg42 left column, 3paragraph end

I have several questions:
1. Why is the CS the only "alliance" states are willing to join in NA?
2. Why is the CS the only "alliance" in NA?
3. What states/kingdoms in NA do you think would be the genesis for such an alliance (RMB or RUE era) if it was attempted?
4. What would the CS response be to this new alliance?

[Killer Cyborg]

Rifts WB11 CWC does suggest that the only way for small kingdom/states to survive being absorbed into the CS eventually is to join forces in a counter alliance as their individual armies don't have the numbers to realistically compete with the CS as they only have 15,000 people on the high end of the scale.

"Except for a few notable exceptions, like Tolkeen and Free Quebec, the nations surrounding the CS have armies of about 5000-15000, sometimes less- nothing compared to the nearly one million Coalition Soldiers ready for combat"-pg42 left column, 3rd paragraph about 1/4th way in.

"If the Coalition states is successful in these campaigns, the small kingdoms of North American will have to unite and build an army to match the Coalition or perish in the birth of the exploding human empire"-pg42 left column, 3paragraph end

I have several questions:
1. Why is the CS the only "alliance" states are willing to join in NA?
2. Why is the CS the only "alliance" in NA?
3. What states/kingdoms in NA do you think would be the genesis for such an alliance (RMB or RUE era) if it was attempted?
4. What would the CS response be to this new alliance?

1. If you're not going to be your own boss, you might as well work for the biggest/best in town.
2. Oh, there are probably plenty of other alliances… but they're likely on the small scale, 2-3 minor kingdoms who have pacts and such. The CS is made of the most powerful nations, though, so they have a much stronger alliance.
3. Lazlo, Dweomer, and other magical alliances. That's the kind of thing that the hints about future alliances seem to be pointing at. Since the CS is opposed to magic, and vice-versa, and and the CS destroyed Tolkeen, it's the magical communities that are going to feel the most pressure to band together.
For a lot of the non-magical communities, there's no real reason to band against the CS for the same reasons why Europe doesn't band together against the United States.
4. I think that by the time that people start seriously allying against the CS, it'll be because the CS is already on the warpath. They ARE, after all, repeatedly compared to Nazis. It only makes sense that "The Alliance" will form as direct reaction to their aggression, in about the same way that the Allies banded together in WWII.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Rifts WB11 CWC does suggest that the only way for small kingdom/states to survive being absorbed into the CS eventually is to join forces in a counter alliance as their individual armies don't have the numbers to realistically compete with the CS as they only have 15,000 people on the high end of the scale.

"Except for a few notable exceptions, like Tolkeen and Free Quebec, the nations surrounding the CS have armies of about 5000-15000, sometimes less- nothing compared to the nearly one million Coalition Soldiers ready for combat"-pg42 left column, 3rd paragraph about 1/4th way in.

"If the Coalition states is successful in these campaigns, the small kingdoms of North American will have to unite and build an army to match the Coalition or perish in the birth of the exploding human empire"-pg42 left column, 3paragraph end

I have several questions:
1. Why is the CS the only "alliance" states are willing to join in NA?

They are not?

2. Why is the CS the only "alliance" in NA?

Lets See. Tolkein is (well, was) an alliance of five baronies and three city-states.
The Federation of Magic is an alliance of many small city-states in the magic zone.
The Iroquois League is an alliance of many North-eastern native american tribes
Lazlo has an anti-xitixic alliance for anyone willing to help fight them
The Peacos Empire is an alliance of many city-states who's only real common ground is protection from monsters, vampires, and the CS

And those are just off the top of my head.

3. What states/kingdoms in NA do you think would be the genesis for such an alliance (RMB or RUE era) if it was attempted?

Peacos Empire is the most likely canidate. they've already driven off so much of the CS state of Lone Star the mega city is a virtual ghost town due to the constant raids.

4. What would the CS response be to this new alliance?

Cannonically, pull out and cut their losses. They still guard the Lone Star Facility where their top secret reserch takes place and that's mostly it, unoffically virtually the entire state's been abandoned to the peacos bandit kings and the mega-city has been abandoned en masse by the civilians who feel the military can no longer protect them as of RUE.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Rifts WB11 CWC does suggest that the only way for small kingdom/states to survive being absorbed into the CS eventually is to join forces in a counter alliance as their individual armies don't have the numbers to realistically compete with the CS as they only have 15,000 people on the high end of the scale.

"Except for a few notable exceptions, like Tolkeen and Free Quebec, the nations surrounding the CS have armies of about 5000-15000, sometimes less- nothing compared to the nearly one million Coalition Soldiers ready for combat"-pg42 left column, 3rd paragraph about 1/4th way in.

"If the Coalition states is successful in these campaigns, the small kingdoms of North American will have to unite and build an army to match the Coalition or perish in the birth of the exploding human empire"-pg42 left column, 3paragraph end

I have several questions:
1. Why is the CS the only "alliance" states are willing to join in NA?

At this point the CS is 'THE' Power in NA. Joining another alliance would be like... Rhode Island trying to take on the USA. You could try it, but why? You'll just get killed. It's not like you're going to win. (As a side note, why use old information? We know that at this point the CS has a minimum of 2.5million humans under arms and 2.4Million dogboys.)

Also why is it the only alliance that they're willing to join, has to do with another factor people ignore. "Travel is very hard, and most people don't do it" in rifts earth. Too easy to be eaten, raped, killed, mutated, slaved, by a million different things, you might run into between towns/kingdoms. With out the CS Army to make it safe, just moving around NA is deadly at the best of times. Hard to form an alliance if you never travel more than 20 miles from home.

2. Why is the CS the only "alliance" in NA?

It's not. There's the Colorado Baronies. But for the overall answer, I refer you to the answer for number 1. What's the point if there's already a massive massive group that can face palm you at will, and... most people don't move around, so they're not going to team up with people 100s or 1000s of miles away.

3. What states/kingdoms in NA do you think would be the genesis for such an alliance (RMB or RUE era) if it was attempted?

Hard to say. Most of the small kingdoms out there, like running their own show their own way. They don't want to have to change. Look at NG. (Which is a pretty big kingdom) They deal with the CS. Sell to them, buy from them. They're allies. But they haven't petitioned for statehood. The CS's practices would be too restrictive. (The restrictions they have from just being an ally is something NG has to work around. Which makes business harder.) By all accounts the "Kingdom" of Ishphiming would benifit from joining the CS. Better protection, standing armies, etc, but NG runs the show and it'd be bad for business. Better to keep them as a friend, and run things the way you want to.

4. What would the CS response be to this new alliance?

Assess threat. Amass a force depletion report. (How many they'd lose if they went to war) Factor threat level vs cost to eliminate the threat.
If it costs less to eliminate the threat, you eliminate it.
If the threat is low to non existant, you monitor it. If it becomes a bigger threat. You handle it.
If there is not a threat, and instead, a benefit. You see about bringing them into the fold.

"Threat" to the CS could be military, ideological, territorial, or financial.

[Tor]

1. Why is the CS the only "alliance" states are willing to join in NA?
2. Why is the CS the only "alliance" in NA?

It isn't, the Federation of Magic and Pecos Empire are examples of others. I'd think (Old?) Lazlo + New Lazlo could qualify as another?

3. What states/kingdoms in NA do you think would be the genesis for such an alliance (RMB or RUE era) if it was attempted?

I think the disintegration of FoM is bound to happen eventually. I could see a Dweomer/Lazlo/Magestar/NewLazlo/Psycape alliance unite various fade-towns. Kingsdale is a bit on the fence between Dunscon and Dweomer I would think. Lazlo seems like the visible head with New Lazlo and Magestar being the smaller states while hidden cities like Dweomer/Psyscape are the secret supporters. The real trouble is setting it up without compromising the secrecy or security.

4. What would the CS response be to this new alliance?

Kill it with fire.

[Nox Equites]

Queenston could make an interesting locus for an alliance. It would be difficult with the distrust many people have for her renegade Splugorth minions, but hey she has a pyramid. If she had more pyramids built and properly defended she has incredible force mobility. If she could be convinced to actually use more tech she would have a better defense in depth. Warping a platoon a hundred miles away and then having them mount up in/on waiting vehicles would save a lot of time.

Kingsdale joining with the tribes and kingdoms in Kansas might be another decent alliance. Both factions either are suffering from CS imperialism disguised as patriotism or can expect to be targeted soon.

People seem to forget that other people in NA have special forces training or close enough. With the right gear you can sting the CS enough to force them to pull forces away from other plans. Even with the absurdly high estimate of 10% of the population under arms they don't have the people or equipment to engage across a large front. Demo plus traps is your friend. Placing water mines in the Mississippi is mean but the CS has made all sorts of enemies some do not play nice and never will. With actual magic you can do massive damage and then have the shifter port the four of you back to the nearest nexus to home. Summon demons for mayhem's sake. Target CS Missouri since they explicitly say that it is poorly defended even though it is the major breadbasket of CS.

If you figure out that one of their black ops units in in your area it is toast because they are out of communications. A shame they had to field test all that new gear in secret before the CWC time period. Some of it never came back, given that few in command knew where these units even were, meaning you have people who can arrange massacres to give CS a black eye. The BM can get almost any small arm the CS uses because a rifle is pretty easy to hide for an experienced smuggler. Vehicles are harder but not impossible. How many vehicles were "destroyed" in Tolkeen and FQ campaigns? You can still learn important info about a vehicle what shut down from the main body reaching zero MDC. Once you have a few of the new toys to look at you can figure out their weaknesses.

There are thousands of renegade CS soldiers and officers if several instances of them that show up in canon are any indicator. Not every CS renegade is good, some just hate the restrictions of CS playbook, some hated being back stabbed by the excessive number of Miscreant and Diabolic commanders. These people know the major commanders and their habits and are familiar with their doctrines and TO&E.

The CS has millions of D-Bees, many of which suffer regular abuse at the hands of dead boys. Take a few hundred from the various burbs and train them as insurgents then let them loose to commit sabotage and other guerrilla activities. ISS will have to call in regular army to handle major unrest or serious fighting in the streets. These people know the area better than the ISS goons. They are used to hiding to begin with. If they die who cares? They stuck it to Prosek and died heroes. Psych warfare is still warfare. The CS needs to keep D-bees in the burbs as easily visible boogie men to scare the sheeple in the cities, also food for Psi-stalkers.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Queenston could make an interesting locus for an alliance. It would be difficult with the distrust many people have for her renegade Splugorth minions, but hey she has a pyramid. If she had more pyramids built and properly defended she has incredible force mobility. If she could be convinced to actually use more tech she would have a better defense in depth. Warping a platoon a hundred miles away and then having them mount up in/on waiting vehicles would save a lot of time.

Kingsdale joining with the tribes and kingdoms in Kansas might be another decent alliance. Both factions either are suffering from CS imperialism disguised as patriotism or can expect to be targeted soon.

People seem to forget that other people in NA have special forces training or close enough. With the right gear you can sting the CS enough to force them to pull forces away from other plans. Even with the absurdly high estimate of 10% of the population under arms they don't have the people or equipment to engage across a large front. Demo plus traps is your friend. Placing water mines in the Mississippi is mean but the CS has made all sorts of enemies some do not play nice and never will. With actual magic you can do massive damage and then have the shifter port the four of you back to the nearest nexus to home. Summon demons for mayhem's sake. Target CS Missouri since they explicitly say that it is poorly defended even though it is the major breadbasket of CS.

If you figure out that one of their black ops units in in your area it is toast because they are out of communications. A shame they had to field test all that new gear in secret before the CWC time period. Some of it never came back, given that few in command knew where these units even were, meaning you have people who can arrange massacres to give CS a black eye. The BM can get almost any small arm the CS uses because a rifle is pretty easy to hide for an experienced smuggler. Vehicles are harder but not impossible. How many vehicles were "destroyed" in Tolkeen and FQ campaigns? You can still learn important info about a vehicle what shut down from the main body reaching zero MDC. Once you have a few of the new toys to look at you can figure out their weaknesses.

There are thousands of renegade CS soldiers and officers if several instances of them that show up in canon are any indicator. Not every CS renegade is good, some just hate the restrictions of CS playbook, some hated being back stabbed by the excessive number of Miscreant and Diabolic commanders. These people know the major commanders and their habits and are familiar with their doctrines and TO&E.

The CS has millions of D-Bees, many of which suffer regular abuse at the hands of dead boys. Take a few hundred from the various burbs and train them as insurgents then let them loose to commit sabotage and other guerrilla activities. ISS will have to call in regular army to handle major unrest or serious fighting in the streets. These people know the area better than the ISS goons. They are used to hiding to begin with. If they die who cares? They stuck it to Prosek and died heroes. Psych warfare is still warfare. The CS needs to keep D-bees in the burbs as easily visible boogie men to scare the sheeple in the cities, also food for Psi-stalkers.

None of this would actually work to 'hurt' the CS though.The CS has so many troops, that even if they lost 10... 20... 50... 100 to one, against a foe, the CS is still going to outlast that foe. And no matter how good your PC's are, focused fire from 10 on one, you're going to die. 20, 50 or 100 on one and you're toast.

Can gurillia tactics take out a few CS troops here. Some there? Sure, if the CS are played like brain dead idiots shooting at the sun and what not. Even via surprise you can jump small elements of the CS and all. But the overall answer is. "Superior numbers/Superior Equipment/Superior Supply Chains" If you're fighting an enemy that can just zerg you with 10 times your troops, 20 times your troops. 50 times your troops. 100 times your troops and not only that, but eat up that kind of loss. you're not going to win.

2.5-3+ Million humans.
2.4 Million Dogboys.

The CS has so many troops that --no one-- in NA can stand against them. They might bloody the CS nose, but the the CS is going to turn them into a crater. Thing is, this is no surprise. The books have -always- pointed out the CS is __THE POWER__ In NA. bar none. That if they turn their forces on you it's not a matter of 'If' they'll win, but how long you hold out before you die.

Once you factor in that not only do they have those numbers, but large percentages of those numbers are 5th+ level and have an almost endless supply, and resupply chain, you're just not going to beat them with anything in NA. The only force IN NA that could try would be the Xits. And they're not teaming up with anyone. They're equal opportunity invasion monsters.

Atlantis, could beat them if they rift in forces from offworld but they're held in check by the Megaversal powers that be and aren't really "in" NA. They're 'in' Atlantis.

[Lenwen]

Atlantis, could beat them if they rift in forces from offworld but they're held in check by the Megaversal powers that be and aren't really "in" NA. They're 'in' Atlantis.

Atlantis would not need to rift in forces from off world to beat the CS.

Atlantis has a larger "reserve" force, then there are total popluation (dogboys included) then the entire Coalition states combined !

[Lenwen]

The CS has so many troops that --no one-- in NA can stand against them. They might bloody the CS nose, but the the CS is going to turn them into a crater. Thing is, this is no surprise. The books have -always- pointed out the CS is __THE POWER__ In NA. bar none. That if they turn their forces on you it's not a matter of 'If' they'll win, but how long you hold out before you die.

The title of most powerful (canonly speaking according to the books) in north america goes directly to Archie.

Before .. he ever showed his entire field army off to Hagen .. he was canonly stated as being able to take both Quebec and the CS at the same time .. and more then likely win ! Take Free Quebec out of the picture, an its assured he would.

Now toss in the fact, he has up to the nano second battle field intel (Thanks to his geo-synched sat) he can position troops, and call in for reenforcements faster then the CS can (by several factors faster)

Now toss in the fact, he has an entire ARMY .. that alone could breach the walls of Chi-Town itself before its stopped ..

Now toss in the fact, Archie possess technologically superior .. well everything .. as well as the ability to out produce the Coalition as well ..

Thee most powerful in north america is bar none .. Archie. (according to canon)

[Kagashi]

I have several questions:
1. Why is the CS the only "alliance" states are willing to join in NA?

The CS is the big power house. Sometimes if you want to survive, you hang with the big kid on the street, whether or not you agree with what he does or not. But the CS is by far not the only group of kingdoms which collectively combine military power in North America.

ARCHIE can give the CS a run for its money, but survives due to secrecy, therefore an alliance or coalition with him is impossible.

2. Why is the CS the only "alliance" in NA?

Its not.

Technically the CS is a coalition, not an alliance, hence the name Coalition States. Each state is an independent nation with their own armies and leaders. Chi-Town just calls the majority of the shots and is clearly the military leader of the Coalition (the real power lies with Chi-Town over all the other states). Missouri and Arkansas supply agriculture, Lone Star supplies Research, and Iron Heart supplies industrial might to form a synergistic atmosphere within the coalition proper.. Their common goal is to preserve humanity and defy magic. But the correct term should be "The Coalition States are...", as opposed to the common misconception on these boards that "The Coalition States is..."

When Quebec was part of the Coalition, they had every right to build their own army, with what ever materials they wanted to. This is why Quebec never employed dog boys or psychics, nor built skelebots, and had legions of Glitter Boys whom Chi-Town said should be illegal. When Quebec dropped out, Prosek may have called them "traitors", but in fact, they simply left the terms of the Coalition and continued life as in independent state, as they always did. Chi-Town declared war on the independent state and they fought a 4 year war, culminating in a cease fire with the potential of elevating back to an Alliance status, but never back to the Coalition status.

Now, collectively, the CS have also formed alliances. The major one being Northern Gun. They do NOT share the same outlook on d-bees and even deal with mages (although secretly so the CS does not find out about it). They have common goals, but not 100% inline with the criteria which could make them part of the coalition.

Whykin on the other hand, is not only is in an alliance with the CS, but wishes to become part of the Coalition. If that happens, I imagine Chi-Town will provide military weapons and armor to "standardize" CS troops, "advisers" to train troops there (to take control of really), Missouri will send food and clothing and Lone Star wills end medicine and science. The only problem is, what exactly does Whykin have to offer to become part of the Coalition? Just population really, which isnt all that impressive compared to the might of Chi-Town which clearly holds the highest numbers of people in North America. Whykin offers no unique aspect that the current members of the CS do not already provide. It is likely that Whykin will remain in "alliance" status, which is still better than nothing, especially if Kingsdale goes hot again.

3. What states/kingdoms in NA do you think would be the genesis for such an alliance (RMB or RUE era) if it was attempted?

The Federationof Magic, centrally run by Dunscan, formed to militarily respond to Chi-Town aggression.

Lazlo and New Lazlo, two independent city-states, have an alliance, but not to counter the CS, but to preserve knowledge and peace.

The Colorado Baronies have an alliance with one another for self preservation.

4. What would the CS response be to this new alliance?

Status quo. These alliances already exist and we know the plan (well as of 105 PA) with what Chi-Town wants to do with them. The Colorado Baronies and Federation of Magic are pretty much in the clear as they are not part of the Campaign of Unity, but Lazlo and New Lazlo might want to start looking for some extra military help.

Lazlo is unofficially aligned with Northern Gun, but if they were to go to war with the CS, Northern Gun would likely value their alliance with the CS over their alliance with Lazlo, although I doubt the flow of supplies from Northern Gun to Lazlo via the Black Market would stop.

Likewise, the Naruni would sell to Lazlo for a discount just to hurt the CS, but they would still be financially motivated.

Free Quebec would likely just remain neutral and honor the ceasefire agreement.

The Federation of Magic may come to the aid of Lazlo, but their philosophies differ so greatly, a formal alliance may never be formed between the two.

Lazlo may reach out to smaller kingdoms like Fort Huron, the Long House Preserve, and/or Quenston Harbor, all communities which fall very close to the intended union of the Campaign of Unity. Unfortunately for Lazlo, these three locations do not actually fall within the Campaign of Unity, so support may be limited if they get it at all. This would be a true alliance as they would unite for a common, but temporary goal. Cyber Knights and the Order of the White Rose may come to the aid of Lazlo, just as the Cyber Knights intervened in the Siege of Tolkeen, although this is much clearer that the Cyber Knights would side with Lazlo since Lazlo tends to shy away from use of demonic magics like Tolkeen did. If the Federation of Magic intervened, Cyber Knights would be posed with that moral dilemma again.

Although geographically separated from the East, Fort Comanche lies in the middle of the Campaign of Unity as well. They may never have contact with Lazlo themselves, but they would share a common goal of preserving their way of life, which the Campaign of Unity threatens to Lazlo and Fort Comanche alike. Perhaps with the aid of a network which spans the continent, like that of the Cyber Knights, a unified movement can form between Fort Comanche and Lazlo.

[ShadowLogan]

3. Lazlo, Dweomer, and other magical alliances. That's the kind of thing that the hints about future alliances seem to be pointing at. Since the CS is opposed to magic, and vice-versa, and and the CS destroyed Tolkeen, it's the magical communities that are going to feel the most pressure to band together.
For a lot of the non-magical communities, there's no real reason to band against the CS for the same reasons why Europe doesn't band together against the United States.

I do not think it has to be purely magical alliances. Just look at New Kenora. Then you have the D-Bee communities. So there IS pressure/reasons by non-magical states to band together if not into a Nation State like the CS, at least into a military alliance (Warsaw Pact, NATO, Tripple Alliance/Entente, etc) for mutual protection.

4. I think that by the time that people start seriously allying against the CS, it'll be because the CS is already on the warpath. They ARE, after all, repeatedly compared to Nazis. It only makes sense that "The Alliance" will form as direct reaction to their aggression, in about the same way that the Allies banded together in WWII.

I'm surprised nations aren't thinking that already given the fall of Tolkeen and New Kenora, and the war with FQ all by the CS. The CS is already on the warpath having fought 4 major conflicts w/n ~10years (5 if you count expelling Naruni) and that isn't counting MiF. They've fought and annexed Tolkeen and New Kenora by force, fought a (civil) war with FQ (and lost, though FQ has several edges others don't), and involved in the Jucier Uprising.

@Nekira Sundance
Per RMB and even RUE they are the only Alliance in NA. RMB does not portray Tolkeen as a group of city states. RMB/RUE do not mention the Iroquois (Spirit West? Don't have that one), and the Pecos Empire in RMB/RUE doesn't come across as an alliance or such (WB13 might, but I don't have that one). The anti-Xitic alliance from Lazlo is noted, but seems out of place for what I am thinking sense it can also include "we don't like each other, but lets not step on each others toes with this issue" IIRC.

Pecos Empire's inclusion is surprising on the list as they appear more as bandits than a rooted state given RMB/RUE description of the bloc.

@Pepsi Jedi

(As a side note, why use old information? We know that at this point the CS has a minimum of 2.5million humans under arms and 2.4Million dogboys.)

The old information from CWC is for context. The quote in CWC shows the typical higher end size of states "armies". If the CS army has expanded since CWC it doesn't change the size of other states' armies, and only reinforces the need for those smaller states to band together if they don't want to be absorbed by the CS.

At this point the CS is 'THE' Power in NA. Joining another alliance would be like... Rhode Island trying to take on the USA. You could try it, but why? You'll just get killed. It's not like you're going to win.

The CS may be "THE" open power in NA (technically Atlantis has low profile colony that can tap resources of the 'homeland', then you have Archie in the shadows), but there are groups that can't join the alliance as is (Lazlo, Colo. Barnies, Psycape, etc) due to their composition (D-Bee, Magic Users, etc). It's those groups that should at least be looking at ways to deter the CS from attacking them.

It's not. There's the Colorado Baronies. But for the overall answer, I refer you to the answer for number 1. What's the point if there's already a massive massive group that can face palm you at will, and... most people don't move around, so they're not going to team up with people 100s or 1000s of miles away.

I was thinking only of RUE/RMB descriptions. The point is that if that massive massive group that can face palm you at will decides to come your way, and you don't want to move (as Tolkeen did) what are you going to do? Lets also assume that you don't want to join them. To discourage that party from taking action against you, you want to make it seem less appealing to come your way. To do that you need numbers (or some force multiplier). To get the numbers you need allies. Even if those allies are 100s/1000s of miles away, it can still benefit you (just look at the CS and NGR, or CS and those two SA countries, technically FQ and IH states where distant from the rest of the CS, etc).

Hard to say. Most of the small kingdoms out there, like running their own show their own way. They don't want to have to change. Look at NG. (Which is a pretty big kingdom) They deal with the CS. Sell to them, buy from them. They're allies. But they haven't petitioned for statehood. The CS's practices would be too restrictive. (The restrictions they have from just being an ally is something NG has to work around. Which makes business harder.) By all accounts the "Kingdom" of Ishphiming would benifit from joining the CS. Better protection, standing armies, etc, but NG runs the show and it'd be bad for business. Better to keep them as a friend, and run things the way you want to.

There is no need for the kingdoms to form alliances into a single state like the CS, they can go for military alliances like NATO. That would allow them to run their own show, of course militarily they are obligated to assist others in the alliance, but that is a two-way street.

Assess threat. Amass a force depletion report. (How many they'd lose if they went to war) Factor threat level vs cost to eliminate the threat.
If it costs less to eliminate the threat, you eliminate it.
If the threat is low to non existant, you monitor it. If it becomes a bigger threat. You handle it.
If there is not a threat, and instead, a benefit. You see about bringing them into the fold.

"Threat" to the CS could be military, ideological, territorial, or financial.

I can see the CS doing this. I doubt the CS would look to bring in these new alliances, presumably these are people that don't want to be part of the CS or else they would approach the CS (or vise versa) directly to join.

[Killer Cyborg]

3. Lazlo, Dweomer, and other magical alliances. That's the kind of thing that the hints about future alliances seem to be pointing at. Since the CS is opposed to magic, and vice-versa, and and the CS destroyed Tolkeen, it's the magical communities that are going to feel the most pressure to band together.
For a lot of the non-magical communities, there's no real reason to band against the CS for the same reasons why Europe doesn't band together against the United States.

I do not think it has to be purely magical alliances.

I don't think that there are any purely magical nations/kingdoms to begin with.

Just look at New Kenora.

I'd have to know what that was.

4. I think that by the time that people start seriously allying against the CS, it'll be because the CS is already on the warpath. They ARE, after all, repeatedly compared to Nazis. It only makes sense that "The Alliance" will form as direct reaction to their aggression, in about the same way that the Allies banded together in WWII.

I'm surprised nations aren't thinking that already given the fall of Tolkeen and New Kenora, and the war with FQ all by the CS. The CS is already on the warpath having fought 4 major conflicts w/n ~10years (5 if you count expelling Naruni) and that isn't counting MiF. They've fought and annexed Tolkeen and New Kenora by force, fought a (civil) war with FQ (and lost, though FQ has several edges others don't), and involved in the Jucier Uprising.

What's that old poem?
"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist..."

[kaid]

One main reason I think is right now with the CS up until recently was not expansistic for the most part. It rattled the cages and skirmished with others but was mostly inward looking. Now that tolkeen got taken out everybody is scrambling. The biggest problem in forming an alliance to counter them would be if the CS caught wind they would see it as an existential threat and drop the hammer almost immediately so it would be hard to form a solid enough alliance fast enough to matter.

As for lazlo not joining an alliance with tolkeen it honestly was probably at its heart a practical choice. They saw that there was never any real chance of tolkeen not being destroyed it was only a matter of how long that destruction would take. Lazlo has about the same issue as a single small geographically concentrated city state if the CS wants to take them out it likely would succeed no matter who joined forces with them as they are just to concentrated of a target to hold off the assault.

If you look at the NG which is a couple main cities and a bunch of smaller cities and towns as one of the major players in rifts north america has at its maximum point fielded a military plus mercs plus reservists of slightly over 100k troops.

If the CS wanted to take the northern gun out it would be painful but they would run them over and wipe them out in probably a year or less.

The minion war is the one thing that could potentially change the equation that has been forming to date. The CS is probably going to bear a lot of the brunt of the combat from it and with various alliances of desperation it may wind up with them mellowing out a bit into something a bit more like triax still human supremacist but not as actively murderous as they currently are.

[gaby]

Lazlo will Never team-up with the Evil Fed of Magic.
I think the CS will focus more the Low magic areas of West for some time.

[ShadowLogan]

I don't think that there are any purely magical nations/kingdoms to begin with.

I can't think of a pure magical kingdom/nation either, but there are ones that are more entrenched than others. Tolkeen was not a pure magical nation/kingdom, but they did rely on TWdry (2nd to Lazlo IIRC the RMB) and they where targeted. So one does not need to be purely magical to be targeted.

I'd have to know what that was.

WB 11 CWC campaign pg26. New Kenora was the independent kingdom that was home to Iron Heart Armaments (Rifts Mercenaries). It was basically absorbed into the CS of Iron Heart, the Kingdom basically surrendered when it woke up completely surrounded. IHA closed up shop and has disappeared (with the plans for their hardware).

What's that old poem?
"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist..."

I'm aware of that way of thinking, but given all the people the CS target (Mages, D-Bees, etc) openly, there should be more effort to band together given the various states.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I don't think that there are any purely magical nations/kingdoms to begin with.

I can't think of a pure magical kingdom/nation either, but there are ones that are more entrenched than others. Tolkeen was not a pure magical nation/kingdom, but they did rely on TWdry (2nd to Lazlo IIRC the RMB) and they where targeted. So one does not need to be purely magical to be targeted.

In north america, no, but the New Empire in japan is anti-technology rabidly as a religion and use nothing beyond dark ages technology.

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't think that there are any purely magical nations/kingdoms to begin with.

I can't think of a pure magical kingdom/nation either, but there are ones that are more entrenched than others. Tolkeen was not a pure magical nation/kingdom, but they did rely on TWdry (2nd to Lazlo IIRC the RMB) and they where targeted. So one does not need to be purely magical to be targeted.

Agreed. "Magical communities" was simply to refer to communities that were more focused on magic than on technology.
Similarly, I refer to "tech communities/nations" sometimes, and I'm not talking about nations that necessarily rely exclusively on technology.
Even the CS makes heavy use of psychics, after all.

I'd have to know what that was.

WB 11 CWC campaign pg26. New Kenora was the independent kingdom that was home to Iron Heart Armaments (Rifts Mercenaries). It was basically absorbed into the CS of Iron Heart, the Kingdom basically surrendered when it woke up completely surrounded. IHA closed up shop and has disappeared (with the plans for their hardware).

That's the kind of thing that makes little splash, unfortunately.

What's that old poem?
"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist..."

I'm aware of that way of thinking, but given all the people the CS target (Mages, D-Bees, etc) openly, there should be more effort to band together given the various states.

I guess that depends on whether "should" means "ideally" or "realistically."
The Nazis targeted all kinds of groups of people, but that didn't mean that there was any cohesion or group identity between their targets.
They went after gays, blacks, and Jews, but (early on, at least), that didn't make all gays think of all blacks as their allies. Groups tend to have their own prejudices against each other.
And with stuff like "D-Bees, mages, and mutants"…
Well, there are probably a lot of D-Bees that hate magic. And there are probably a lot of human mages who hate D-Bees. And there are probably mutants who hate D-Bees and Mages both.
And there are probably a lot of D-Bees who hate other D-Bees. Elves and Dwarves won't necessarily get along, just because humans are targeting both of them. Same with orcs and elves, and so forth.
Similarly, not all mages are friendly with all mages. As somebody else mentioned, Lazlo isn't going to ally itself with the Federation of Magic. Mages, like anybody else, have their factions and rivalries, and enemies other than the Coalition.

[kaid]

I could see dweomer and lazlo potentially allying but in the long run dweomers best defense is simply its highly difficult for a tech force to locate it. If it ever does get found out would be pretty vulnerable no matter who it allied with. The federation of magic has the best chance of sticking a finger in the eye of the CS without being wiped out mainly because most of its main cities are either not fully in the same dimension as rift is in/highly mobile like stormspire or difficult to locate like dwoemer. It also covers a large enough geographic area that the cs cannot just swamp a small area with forces. It is one of the only entities in north america to have any kind of defensive depth.

A lot of the power structures in North america seem to revolve around not freaking the CS out enough to attack you. Look at the NG they are majority human tech oriented power and even they have been pretty careful about exploring certain technologies such as large warships/aircraft/close matches for samas for fear the CS will do what they did in new kenora. The NG is also pretty clear that if push ever came to shove they would back off or abandon techs that were pushing the CS over the danger threshold.

So you had a lot of city states basically going okay the CS is inward looking and we are trying to not make waves in a way that makes the CS feel directly threatened and that tactic overall worked for over something like 70+ years.

[Killer Cyborg]

A lot of the power structures in North america seem to revolve around not freaking the CS out enough to attack you. Look at the NG they are majority human tech oriented power and even they have been pretty careful about exploring certain technologies such as large warships/aircraft/close matches for samas for fear the CS will do what they did in new kenora. The NG is also pretty clear that if push ever came to shove they would back off or abandon techs that were pushing the CS over the danger threshold.

So you had a lot of city states basically going okay the CS is inward looking and we are trying to not make waves in a way that makes the CS feel directly threatened and that tactic overall worked for over something like 70+ years.

Exactly.

[Svartalf]

Has the FoM been evoked in this thread? it sure is an alliance that doesn't mind freaking off the CS and would actually see it torn down.

[Whiskeyjack]

A lot of the power structures in North america seem to revolve around not freaking the CS out enough to attack you. Look at the NG they are majority human tech oriented power and even they have been pretty careful about exploring certain technologies such as large warships/aircraft/close matches for samas for fear the CS will do what they did in new kenora. The NG is also pretty clear that if push ever came to shove they would back off or abandon techs that were pushing the CS over the danger threshold.

So you had a lot of city states basically going okay the CS is inward looking and we are trying to not make waves in a way that makes the CS feel directly threatened and that tactic overall worked for over something like 70+ years.

Exactly.

The war with Tolkeen will change a lot of that. While some kingdoms will definitely think about trying to keep as low a profile as ever, others are going to look at fortifying to prevent the eventual attack. Because they will eventually be attacked.
A lot of people like to point to Pecos and the Federation of Magic as alliances, but most of these areas are full of "kingdoms" (I use the word loosely) that will in no way come to the aid of their neighbors. Many will actively subvert their neighbors in the hoes of picking up the pieces that remain. Only New Lazlo and Lazlo are a guarantee alliance. And they are also sandwiched by hostile forces (Chi-Town, Free Quebec, Iron Heart, and now potentially NG and MI as well. If they don't find several powerful allies or find some threat to draw the CS away from they, their days are numbered. Add to that their sudden war declaration on the Xiticix, and they will be ripe for the picking.
The only way to actually slow down CS expansion is to involve them heavily with the Xiticix. Or unite the Pecos Bandits under one leader and take out Lone Star. That would draw them away from Lazlo for a few years at least.

[Whiskeyjack]

Has the FoM been evoked in this thread? it sure is an alliance that doesn't mind freaking off the CS and would actually see it torn down.

You can't really consider the FoM a true alliance. Some of the kingdoms fall under Dunscons rule, but many are completely autonomous, and many will never assist their neighbours. Until they actually stand united, they are no more than an irritation to the CS.

[Blue_Lion]

Queenston could make an interesting locus for an alliance. It would be difficult with the distrust many people have for her renegade Splugorth minions, but hey she has a pyramid. If she had more pyramids built and properly defended she has incredible force mobility. If she could be convinced to actually use more tech she would have a better defense in depth. Warping a platoon a hundred miles away and then having them mount up in/on waiting vehicles would save a lot of time.

Kingsdale joining with the tribes and kingdoms in Kansas might be another decent alliance. Both factions either are suffering from CS imperialism disguised as patriotism or can expect to be targeted soon.

People seem to forget that other people in NA have special forces training or close enough. With the right gear you can sting the CS enough to force them to pull forces away from other plans. Even with the absurdly high estimate of 10% of the population under arms they don't have the people or equipment to engage across a large front. Demo plus traps is your friend. Placing water mines in the Mississippi is mean but the CS has made all sorts of enemies some do not play nice and never will. With actual magic you can do massive damage and then have the shifter port the four of you back to the nearest nexus to home. Summon demons for mayhem's sake. Target CS Missouri since they explicitly say that it is poorly defended even though it is the major breadbasket of CS.

If you figure out that one of their black ops units in in your area it is toast because they are out of communications. A shame they had to field test all that new gear in secret before the CWC time period. Some of it never came back, given that few in command knew where these units even were, meaning you have people who can arrange massacres to give CS a black eye. The BM can get almost any small arm the CS uses because a rifle is pretty easy to hide for an experienced smuggler. Vehicles are harder but not impossible. How many vehicles were "destroyed" in Tolkeen and FQ campaigns? You can still learn important info about a vehicle what shut down from the main body reaching zero MDC. Once you have a few of the new toys to look at you can figure out their weaknesses.

There are thousands of renegade CS soldiers and officers if several instances of them that show up in canon are any indicator. Not every CS renegade is good, some just hate the restrictions of CS playbook, some hated being back stabbed by the excessive number of Miscreant and Diabolic commanders. These people know the major commanders and their habits and are familiar with their doctrines and TO&E.

The CS has millions of D-Bees, many of which suffer regular abuse at the hands of dead boys. Take a few hundred from the various burbs and train them as insurgents then let them loose to commit sabotage and other guerrilla activities. ISS will have to call in regular army to handle major unrest or serious fighting in the streets. These people know the area better than the ISS goons. They are used to hiding to begin with. If they die who cares? They stuck it to Prosek and died heroes. Psych warfare is still warfare. The CS needs to keep D-bees in the burbs as easily visible boogie men to scare the sheeple in the cities, also food for Psi-stalkers.

None of this would actually work to 'hurt' the CS though.The CS has so many troops, that even if they lost 10... 20... 50... 100 to one, against a foe, the CS is still going to outlast that foe. And no matter how good your PC's are, focused fire from 10 on one, you're going to die. 20, 50 or 100 on one and you're toast.

Can gurillia tactics take out a few CS troops here. Some there? Sure, if the CS are played like brain dead idiots shooting at the sun and what not. Even via surprise you can jump small elements of the CS and all. But the overall answer is. "Superior numbers/Superior Equipment/Superior Supply Chains" If you're fighting an enemy that can just zerg you with 10 times your troops, 20 times your troops. 50 times your troops. 100 times your troops and not only that, but eat up that kind of loss. you're not going to win.

2.5-3+ Million humans.
2.4 Million Dogboys.

The CS has so many troops that --no one-- in NA can stand against them. They might bloody the CS nose, but the the CS is going to turn them into a crater. Thing is, this is no surprise. The books have -always- pointed out the CS is __THE POWER__ In NA. bar none. That if they turn their forces on you it's not a matter of 'If' they'll win, but how long you hold out before you die.

Once you factor in that not only do they have those numbers, but large percentages of those numbers are 5th+ level and have an almost endless supply, and resupply chain, you're just not going to beat them with anything in NA. The only force IN NA that could try would be the Xits. And they're not teaming up with anyone. They're equal opportunity invasion monsters.

Atlantis, could beat them if they rift in forces from offworld but they're held in check by the Megaversal powers that be and aren't really "in" NA. They're 'in' Atlantis.

This statement shows a lack of understanding of what gorilla warfare is and how it affects your ability to fight.

By cannon CS is described as using tactics more akin to world war two and lacking in gorilla warfare. This is not playing them as idots but that the people in charge are following your line of thought of zerging to win.

In order to zerg a target you have to get your troops to the target. Gorilla warfare slows and can even stop the movement of large amounts of troops.

In order to field a large force you need to maintain supply lines Gorilla bleeds these lines and starves your front line troops.

Magic can stop all air travel restrict land movement allow attackers to escape change the land scape or create disposable troops.

The US Military recognizes that a smaller unit of gorilla warfighters can defeat much larger better equipped conventional armies. It is why developed special forces and ranger programs.

So I would say it is not that others lack the ability to stop a CS attack but doing so would be hard. The CS relies on numbers to win other nations would need to rely on slowing and bleeding the CS advancement to defend themselves. It would be hard for them to do but is within there power, that is the reason that the CS has not just zerged and burned every magical kingdom in north America.

Note the I do not think that such tatics by themselves would lead crashing into the fortified super cities but would make attacking hard. Not sure how long the CS can maintain any large loss of troops without seeing there high number of troops be unsustainable. As nearly 10% of there population is in the military it might get hard to find bodies if they need to replace large losses from gorilla warfare. Even taking parts of there armies from non CS humans but there is a limit to how many they can get.

(Also The CS is now stuck with a magical version of our war in Iraq in the occupied formally magical kingdom of Tolkeen, fighting a prolonged war with insurgents with access to magic has to be hard as heck even for the CS.)

[Pepsi Jedi]

Queenston could make an interesting locus for an alliance. It would be difficult with the distrust many people have for her renegade Splugorth minions, but hey she has a pyramid. If she had more pyramids built and properly defended she has incredible force mobility. If she could be convinced to actually use more tech she would have a better defense in depth. Warping a platoon a hundred miles away and then having them mount up in/on waiting vehicles would save a lot of time.

Kingsdale joining with the tribes and kingdoms in Kansas might be another decent alliance. Both factions either are suffering from CS imperialism disguised as patriotism or can expect to be targeted soon.

People seem to forget that other people in NA have special forces training or close enough. With the right gear you can sting the CS enough to force them to pull forces away from other plans. Even with the absurdly high estimate of 10% of the population under arms they don't have the people or equipment to engage across a large front. Demo plus traps is your friend. Placing water mines in the Mississippi is mean but the CS has made all sorts of enemies some do not play nice and never will. With actual magic you can do massive damage and then have the shifter port the four of you back to the nearest nexus to home. Summon demons for mayhem's sake. Target CS Missouri since they explicitly say that it is poorly defended even though it is the major breadbasket of CS.

If you figure out that one of their black ops units in in your area it is toast because they are out of communications. A shame they had to field test all that new gear in secret before the CWC time period. Some of it never came back, given that few in command knew where these units even were, meaning you have people who can arrange massacres to give CS a black eye. The BM can get almost any small arm the CS uses because a rifle is pretty easy to hide for an experienced smuggler. Vehicles are harder but not impossible. How many vehicles were "destroyed" in Tolkeen and FQ campaigns? You can still learn important info about a vehicle what shut down from the main body reaching zero MDC. Once you have a few of the new toys to look at you can figure out their weaknesses.

There are thousands of renegade CS soldiers and officers if several instances of them that show up in canon are any indicator. Not every CS renegade is good, some just hate the restrictions of CS playbook, some hated being back stabbed by the excessive number of Miscreant and Diabolic commanders. These people know the major commanders and their habits and are familiar with their doctrines and TO&E.

The CS has millions of D-Bees, many of which suffer regular abuse at the hands of dead boys. Take a few hundred from the various burbs and train them as insurgents then let them loose to commit sabotage and other guerrilla activities. ISS will have to call in regular army to handle major unrest or serious fighting in the streets. These people know the area better than the ISS goons. They are used to hiding to begin with. If they die who cares? They stuck it to Prosek and died heroes. Psych warfare is still warfare. The CS needs to keep D-bees in the burbs as easily visible boogie men to scare the sheeple in the cities, also food for Psi-stalkers.

None of this would actually work to 'hurt' the CS though.The CS has so many troops, that even if they lost 10... 20... 50... 100 to one, against a foe, the CS is still going to outlast that foe. And no matter how good your PC's are, focused fire from 10 on one, you're going to die. 20, 50 or 100 on one and you're toast.

Can gurillia tactics take out a few CS troops here. Some there? Sure, if the CS are played like brain dead idiots shooting at the sun and what not. Even via surprise you can jump small elements of the CS and all. But the overall answer is. "Superior numbers/Superior Equipment/Superior Supply Chains" If you're fighting an enemy that can just zerg you with 10 times your troops, 20 times your troops. 50 times your troops. 100 times your troops and not only that, but eat up that kind of loss. you're not going to win.

2.5-3+ Million humans.
2.4 Million Dogboys.

The CS has so many troops that --no one-- in NA can stand against them. They might bloody the CS nose, but the the CS is going to turn them into a crater. Thing is, this is no surprise. The books have -always- pointed out the CS is __THE POWER__ In NA. bar none. That if they turn their forces on you it's not a matter of 'If' they'll win, but how long you hold out before you die.

Once you factor in that not only do they have those numbers, but large percentages of those numbers are 5th+ level and have an almost endless supply, and resupply chain, you're just not going to beat them with anything in NA. The only force IN NA that could try would be the Xits. And they're not teaming up with anyone. They're equal opportunity invasion monsters.

Atlantis, could beat them if they rift in forces from offworld but they're held in check by the Megaversal powers that be and aren't really "in" NA. They're 'in' Atlantis.

This statement shows a lack of understanding of what gorilla warfare is and how it affects your ability to fight.

No, it shows an understanding of large numbers, which is not universal.

By cannon CS is described as using tactics more akin to world war two and lacking in gorilla warfare. This is not playing them as idots but that the people in charge are following your line of thought of zerging to win.

They're also shown using other tactics. It depends on the enemy/situation.

In order to zerg a target you have to get your troops to the target. Gorilla warfare slows and can even stop the movement of large amounts of troops.

Not in the CS case. No, it doesn't. They have airmoble and deployable forces. A death's head transport can drop enough troops in one trip to handle most towns. A few of them can drop enough troops for many. Add as many as needed to deploy the troops, fast and MDC armored, where ever needed. Most other kingdoms have absolutely zero options to deal with them. And they fly pretty fast.

In order to field a large force you need to maintain supply lines Gorilla bleeds these lines and starves your front line troops.

Note: it's guerrilla, not gorilla. Unless you're talking about armies of (non human) Apes with black fur and what not.

Again. Not in this case. Do the CS need supply lines? Sure. Can guerrilla forces do much if anything to disrupt them? Nope. The CS is going to own the air where ever they're going. Deaths' Head transports with support. Be it Supersams, or one of the other 15 air units the CS have. Fly at altitude. Desend at speed. Land and resupply the troops. Or just have samus ferry the stuff down from altitude if you need to. Unlike our world, shooting a single rocket up at a DHT is just going to let it know where you are. You're not swatting MDC vehicles out of the air with a single shot. Some farmer with a shoulder mounted rocket isn't taking them out.

And that's just using the air. (Which they would.. because... 5 million plus troops.. why not) If they were on the ground, your guerrilla units aren't going to prey on the CS army any better. Sure you might get one transport. Maybe two before they realize your game. Then they simply move the stuff with enough support to shred anything that breathes for miles around. "Oh we have 20 highly trained troops!" That's great. Our supply lines are now protected by 200, highly trained troops. And power armor. And robot vehicles. And Skelebots. and and and and and and and and and... You lose.

Magic can stop all air travel restrict land movement allow attackers to escape change the land scape or create disposable troops.

This is thrown out alot. People like to claim a few spells that can 'do this'. It really can't. They're extremely localized, and tear up the area you're trying to denigh air travel to. "Oh we'll call a hurricane!! Oh crap we just destroyed our own town trying to keep the CS from flying in here!" *Shakes head* It's silly. If anything the CS could just hold station out side the limited radius of the effect till you run out of PPE. Or land and march in, if they were feeling very froggy. Or send a few snipers to vape the head of the mage casting and then fly on in.

The US Military recognizes that a smaller unit of gorilla warfighters can defeat much larger better equipped conventional armies. It is why developed special forces and ranger programs.

The US military is about one fourth, or 25% the size of the CS military. Not counting ISS and not counting skelebots, deployed around the world and protecting a country three times the size and about 10 times the population of the CS.

The CS has a military 4 times as large, before counting ISS, and Skelebots and what not, to defend 1/3rd the area, and other than a smallish deployment to help in Germany are all deployed 'stateside' for the CS.

You're not talking about ultra high tech guys, killing farmers and cave dwellers with AK47s. The CS are the ones with the better training, better equipped and endless supply of troops.

Again, if your group of 20 takes out a group of 100, and you lose 5 people, that's a net win for the CS. Your next engagement with 15 against 100 you lose 5 more... and again and again... you still lose. And that's assuming the CS is just morons and let you. Not only do they have modern day high tech, they have sci fi high tech, and mutant tracking animals that can use psionics to assist in tracking, and man sized power armor that can go 500mph if needed. They can carpet bomb miles of forests with MD bombs if need be to kill the 20 guys hiding there. It's not going to work the same.

So I would say it is not that others lack the ability to stop a CS attack

They utterly and completely lack the ability to stop the CS attack. At the very most they can bloody the CS nose, if the CS underestimates them. Then the CS pours enough troops and equipment on the fight to smother any opposition.

but doing so would be hard. The CS relies on numbers to win

Not 100% accurate. They -use- numbers to win. They don't 'Have' to use numbers to win. If you look through the books, the CS gear is very good gear. High MDC, decent to high MD output, and their actual troops are well trained representations. Is Traix a bit better? Sure. But they're not at war with Traix. You're talking about kingdoms whom at best have hired mercs, or trained their own people to merc equivalent. Are Merc OOCs decent? Sure. Do they utterly completely stomp the CS oocs? No. If you play the CS with half a brain, they can go toe to toe with most any unit at a 1-1 ratio. If you play them -smart- and use not only their brains but their tech, and all their advantages, you see why they dominate NA.

No other kingdom can field even remotely the numbers the CS can. Even a Navy Seal, as highly trained as they are, will fall if 50 guys are shooting at the one seal. And the CS aren't just idiots with guns. They're trained military. AND they have the numbers. They have both sides of the coin.

The CS could just as easily send in special forces to assassinate the leaders, or set a bomb and blow up the town, etc etc etc. 5million+ Troops. How many hundreds of thousands of special forces do you think they have that they could deploy? That's if the CS even chose to take the field. Noone else has Tolkeen's magic Nuke Swallower. They could just nuke anyone that they didn't like, if they were annoying enough.

other nations would need to rely on slowing and bleeding the CS advancement to defend themselves.

Other nations lack the ability to slow the CS and if they try and bleed them, they'll find the tactic doesn't work. As pointed out. Even at 50 to 1 losses, the CS __WILL__ outlast any nation in NA that tries it. (And that's assuming that sort of loss, which is pretty absurd)

It would be hard for them to do but is within there power, that is the reason that the CS has not just zerged and burned every magical kingdom in north America.

Untrue. The CS has not just burned every magic kingdom, because they're not complete morons. They have a time table and are doing so at their own convenience. Tolkeen talked real big. You see what happened to them. The fight went back and forth to sell RPG books to us fans but the CS won. In the SoT books, in world, Tarn and others told Tolkeen to run. To get out of the way, that the CS would destroy them. Tolkeen wanted the magic kingdoms to team up against the CS. Tolkeen was told "NO! Even if we DO team up. The CS will STILL WIN and KILL US ALL". It'd take longer, the CS would lose more but they'd still win. Now Tolkeen is gone. The other magic nations have seen the CS put the hammer down. Their own borders are swollen with 1000s of refugees they havve to house and feed, and it's not like all the refugees are combat troops. They're the 'non' combat sorts.

Note the I do not think that such tatics by themselves would lead crashing into the fortified super cities but would make attacking hard.

Only because you're thinking of it in modern standards. MD armor changes the equation. The NUMBERS change the Equation. The CS fields 5,000,000+ Troops with a population that most people wouldn't put over 30,000,000. The USA has over 314,000,000 and only fields about 1,400,000. Now if you look at it, you'd need to multiply our army by 4, and give each one of them a battle tank of his very own, just to equal the CS Grunts. And give them alot less turf they need to defend.

One missile won't bring down a MD transport. And when you try the CS is going to swarm you with their vast array of military might, depending on what they need. Be it their stealth bombers, be it 50 supersams moving 500 mph. Be it special forces to hunt you down and kill you where you sleep, whatever. Your guys hiding in the woods and taking popshots would be hunted down and slaughtered.

Not sure how long the CS can maintain any large loss of troops without seeing there high number of troops be unsustainable.

They have 5,000,000+ troops. They can maintain loss of troops a long time, but no force in NA can INFLICT large loss of troops against the CS with out a full out war, and.. as we've seen in tolkeen, the CS is willing to do so. The war with tolkeen went on for years (Again to sell books) And at the end... the CS broke even. Tolkeen is rubble.

As nearly 10% of there population is in the military it might get hard to find bodies if they need to replace large losses from gorilla warfare.

There wouldn't be large losses. MD Armor and such prevents it. Your guerrillas would pop up. take pop shots, kill a few CS and run like crazy in hopes they don't get killed. CS fast reaction units would come in and kill them. It's not like your guerrillas are going to have the ABILITY to take large numbers of CS. Because the CS aren't whimps. You'd need a force many times larger to take out a CS force quickly. Quickly is the key, because if the CS start to lose they're calling in Air support, to bring the rain. The other kingdoms in NA don't have this. If you need 100 guys to take out 20 CS, then you're just not inflicting heavy losses. Not out of a pool of millions. If you field forces big enough to do such a thing, they're not a guerrilla force, they're a standing army of 100s to 1000s of troops. Where in the CS could just roll out 10s of 1000s and wipe the floor with them.

You're tactic is trying to empty an ocean with a bucket. No matter how fast you bail the water, it's not going to work.

Even taking parts of there armies from non CS humans but there is a limit to how many they can get.

Um.. wut?

(Also The CS is now stuck with a magical version of our war in Iraq in the occupied formally magical kingdom of Tolkeen, fighting a prolonged war with insurgents with access to magic has to be hard as heck even for the CS.)

Nope. The CS has just recruited 1,000,000 to fight the demons and devils who popped up there (and elsewhere). There isn't a 'tolkeen' left. It's rubble that has rifts over it and now demons and devils.

[ShadowLogan]

n north america, no, but the New Empire in japan is anti-technology rabidly as a religion and use nothing beyond dark ages technology.

But even they use technology on some level, its not high technology admittedly, but they still use some level of it.

That's the kind of thing that makes little splash, unfortunately.

The CS action shuts down a major weapons manufacturer in NA and it doesn't make a splash?!? Shutting down Naruni made a splash.

I guess that depends on whether "should" means "ideally" or "realistically."...Well, there are probably a lot of D-Bees that hate magic. And there are probably a lot of human mages who hate D-Bees. And there are probably mutants who hate D-Bees and Mages both.
And there are probably a lot of D-Bees who hate other D-Bees. Elves and Dwarves won't necessarily get along, just because humans are targeting both of them. Same with orcs and elves, and so forth.
Similarly, not all mages are friendly with all mages. As somebody else mentioned, Lazlo isn't going to ally itself with the Federation of Magic. Mages, like anybody else, have their factions and rivalries, and enemies other than the Coalition.

"should" is both "ideally" and "realistically". Realistically the like minded groups that can identify with each other easily enough should be considering alliances and such. Ideally they should also be looking for alliances that are the lesser of two evils.

I do agree that w/n the given groups there are going to be prejudices and divisions. Some of which can be over come much easier than others. There have been "strange" alliances in the past, and I suspect will continue into the future. Rifts Earth isn't much different what with the Sunjai (TA-clan allying w/Splurgoth), CS-Colombia relations (Columbia uses magic and gives equal status to Dwarven D-Bee), CS-NGR relations (D-Bee general), New Empire/Republic in Japan, FQ-Tolkeen (short lived as it was in SoT6), etc.

Its been awhile since I've reviewed FoM, but as someone else pointed out FoM isn't really organized into a single entity so it really isn't an alliance, so I suspect that there are elements that would be more acceptable to Lazlo. Weather those elements are a significant contribution or not I don't know, since at least one of the big 3 FoM players is extremely unlikely (based on Tolkeen I doubt would be reliable). Unfortunately my copy of WB16 doesn't mention relations between individual elements of the FoM and Lazlo in the "Relations" section for each, I don't know if that was changed w/the revised version or not.

[Lenwen]

I have several questions:
1. Why is the CS the only "alliance" states are willing to join in NA?

Interestingly enough I posted thee exact same question a few years back. And was givin the "Because Kevin does not want them to" answer. Which holds all kinds of merit if ya ask me .

2. Why is the CS the only "alliance" in NA?

They are not thee only "aliance" in NA, they just happen to be the big bully of all the alliances of north america.

3. What states/kingdoms in NA do you think would be the genesis for such an alliance (RMB or RUE era) if it was attempted?

I for one, think that once Archie does unleash his sleeping field army, they have the scematic's of both Lone Star Complex as well as "The Republicans" bunker as well, with tactical knowledge of how to get into or take out both .. or "forcibly recover both" shall I say ?

Once that happens, America can slowly start to be taken over again by the rightful people who are from the time of America, and can / should lead it down its natural due course.

4. What would the CS response be to this new alliance?

It would not matter, as Archie alone can take out the Coalition (canonly stated as able to take both the CS and FQ at the same time, if its just the CS its even more certain that Archie would be able to straight up destroy the CS with ease.) with that entire field army .. It becomes trivial..

[flatline]

I expect that small regional powers who fear CS aggression would send units that can't be traced back to them to antagonize the CS on other fronts. Mercenary groups might specialize in this sort of thing since they would get paid twice, once by their employer and again when they cash in on the potential loot.

In fact, if a group is sufficiently powerful and mobile to successfully ambush, loot, and escape before the CS can mount any effective retaliation, then the CS can be "farmed" for profit. Enterprising groups might equip and train other groups in order to share in their spoils if they have tactics that don't rely on the abilities of specific individuals.

Being the richest house on the block, the CS must be under constant predation from sources both inside and outside its territory. For example, I would expect that there are multiple Black Market operations acquiring military hardware (perhaps with help from inside people at the factories or supply depots).

--flatline

[Library Ogre]

(TL;DR? You ally with the CS because, if you're a human community, they don't gain a lot from outright taking you over, and you gain a lot from the alliance. If you ally with anyone else, you either have to deal with conflicts of interest and competition, or alliances of marginal utility.)

I would also add (though perhaps redundantly) that you wind up in a very uneasy situation with many alliances.

If you try to ally with the kingdom next door, chances are, you're going to have some conflicts of interest. Certain valleys, certain farms... anywhere there's a border, someone's going to dispute it. If you ally with the CS, though, you might still have those disputes, but you gain access to their immense agricultural and manufacturing base, and the CS has less vested interest in marginally increasing their borders at your expense (provided you're a human nation, of course). A small kingdom is going to see that valley or the fishing rights on the river as being vital to its survival... the CS is going to be less concerned about such things, because they have so many other resources.

Alliances farther away run into a communication issue. While you CAN get over the horizon communications, they're more complicated than they were in the past (what with satellites and networks of reliable ground relay stations). Plus, you then have to wonder at how useful the alliance is going to be. Are they going to be able to help you militarily? Even if they can make it in time, helping you militarily weakens their own defenses. Can they help you economically? The dangers in distance travel makes such alliances fraught with problems. It's not to say that these are impossible... just unlikely.

Consider my write-up of Rifts: Houstown. Before the CS took over Port Horus, Houstown traded extensively with the people only 70 miles away. They traded less frequently with San Antonio and Los Alamo. They still have strong relations with College Station, because College Station is close by. But Dallas, which is 5-6 hours away in the modern day, on good highways where relatively few people shoot at you? It's not the moon, but it's not a viable trading partner (especially now, with the CS running trains between Lone Star and Fort Pinnacle). Arzno? It's the kind of place that you get trade caravans from once or twice a year, because going too often is going to result in Pecos Bandits killing everyone and taking their stuff.

With the CS, and a humans-only kingdom, a lot of these disappear. The CS is capable of helping you militarily... they have missiles to spare for fast response, and will probably be willing to supplement your soldiers with a garrison of CS troops, or even simply "advisors and trainers" who can help bring your troops up to snuff. They have such a massive economy that they can afford to invest in you, and enough military power to make such an investment worthwhile.

Once again, though, we only have to look at Houstown for the problems. If you're NOT a humans-only community, the CS doesn't want anything to do with you (in a peaceful fashion). CS influence has soured (though not destroyed) relationships between Houstown and Los Alamo... because the humans in Los Alamo were ok with D-Bees being elsewhere, but that's changing with CS pressure. The CS completely destroyed the Houstown trading partner of Port Horus, and substantially reduced Houstown's access to DFW, and even communities that might have grown up in East Texas.

[Killer Cyborg]

In fact, if a group is sufficiently powerful and mobile to successfully ambush, loot, and escape before the CS can mount any effective retaliation, then the CS can be "farmed" for profit.

Same applies to gods.

[flatline]

In fact, if a group is sufficiently powerful and mobile to successfully ambush, loot, and escape before the CS can mount any effective retaliation, then the CS can be "farmed" for profit.

Same applies to gods.

Sure, most (all?) gods could probably "farm" the CS if they thought it was worth their effort, but less powerful characters can probably do it, too. We used mages and supers when we did it.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

In fact, if a group is sufficiently powerful and mobile to successfully ambush, loot, and escape before the CS can mount any effective retaliation, then the CS can be "farmed" for profit.

Same applies to gods.

Sure, most (all?) gods could probably "farm" the CS if they thought it was worth their effort, but less powerful characters can probably do it, too. We used mages and supers when we did it.

--flatline

Try: if a group is sufficiently powerful and mobile to successfully ambush, loot, and escape before the gods can mount any effective retaliation, then the gods can be farmed for profit.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I expect that small regional powers who fear CS aggression would send units that can't be traced back to them to antagonize the CS on other fronts. Mercenary groups might specialize in this sort of thing since they would get paid twice, once by their employer and again when they cash in on the potential loot.

In fact, if a group is sufficiently powerful and mobile to successfully ambush, loot, and escape before the CS can mount any effective retaliation, then the CS can be "farmed" for profit. Enterprising groups might equip and train other groups in order to share in their spoils if they have tactics that don't rely on the abilities of specific individuals.

Being the richest house on the block, the CS must be under constant predation from sources both inside and outside its territory. For example, I would expect that there are multiple Black Market operations acquiring military hardware (perhaps with help from inside people at the factories or supply depots).

--flatline

That's the thing Flatline. CS has fast movers that most of NA is not privy to, in numbers they can't imagine. To be big enough and bad enough to successfully "Ambush" Any element of the CS bigger than a platoon, and yet fast enough to get away before their airborne back up arrives is going to be rare indeed. The force would have to be astoundingly overwhelming to try it. It's not like sniper shots are going to drop 30 CS troops in armor and blow up their APC in one round. When the drek hits the fan the CS is calling for air-support and backup. That air-support is going to arrive very fast. Supersams can tool around at 500mph and some of the jets faster.

You won't be able to hide or get a large enough force "out' of the area after you engage for it to be viable.

And yes. You've discussed your 'way' before. I still maintain you try it once or twice and they're sicking the Psistalkers, Dogboys, Psibat on you which eliminates your 'edge'. *Chuckles* And not everyone's going to have your temporal guy to even try your trick. It's a one trick pony that would be quickly.

In short, elements large enough to TRY and prey on the CS are going to be too large to effectivly or quickly hide, and thus will be preyed upon BY the CS if they try it.

The CS hires mercs too and they pretty much hold the bank. The mercs working for you for 1K a week will turn on you if offererd 2K a week or 3, or 5... If it even takes that. Psibat has thousands of troops. the CS has mind melters. They could ripthe information from captives.

[flatline]

That's the thing Flatline. CS has fast movers that most of NA is not privy to, in numbers they can't imagine.

All of which can be accounted for with the proper plan and abilities/equipment.

To be big enough and bad enough to successfully "Ambush" Any element of the CS bigger than a platoon, and yet fast enough to get away before their airborne back up arrives is going to be rare indeed. The force would have to be astoundingly overwhelming to try it. It's not like sniper shots are going to drop 30 CS troops in armor and blow up their APC in one round. When the drek hits the fan the CS is calling for air-support and backup. That air-support is going to arrive very fast. Supersams can tool around at 500mph and some of the jets faster.

You're assuming that it takes an army to fight an army.

If you have the ability to engage a sub-set of troops without the rest of the forces even knowing it's happening until it's too late, then this can be successful. When the airpower arrives, if they don't have a target to shoot at, they're useless.

You won't be able to hide or get a large enough force "out' of the area after you engage for it to be viable.

Quit assuming it's a large force. A party of five can disappear with the proper abilities or preparations.

And yes. You've discussed your 'way' before. I still maintain you try it once or twice and they're sicking the Psistalkers, Dogboys, Psibat on you which eliminates your 'edge'. *Chuckles* And not everyone's going to have your temporal guy to even try your trick. It's a one trick pony that would be quickly.

Because patrols outside CS territory have the full support of Psibat, right? At their finger tips?

As the targets, the CS doesn't get to chose where and when they're attacked. At best they could attempt to lure the group into a trap. Clearly, the group would have to be wary.

In short, elements large enough to TRY and prey on the CS are going to be too large to effectivly or quickly hide, and thus will be preyed upon BY the CS if they try it.

The CS hires mercs too and they pretty much hold the bank. The mercs working for you for 1K a week will turn on you if offererd 2K a week or 3, or 5... If it even takes that. Psibat has thousands of troops. the CS has mind melters. They could ripthe information from captives.

Again, all these things can be accounted for in the planning and preparation. Perhaps you don't use mercs? Or if you need mercs, you get mercs from Phase World who will never interact with local merc units? If the group didn't have the resources to make it work, then they wouldn't attempt it. But if they do have the resources to make it work, then they can make it work.

--flatline

[Whiskeyjack]

Either side can easily win a large skirmish depending on the forces present and the intelligence of the attack. Using magic can definitely help an attack force move out of range long before reinforcements arrive (remember, even at 500mph, if your back up is 500 miles away, it's taking an hour to get to you).
On the other side, a battle that lasts too long may very well deplete magic users cancelling out any chance to escape.

Everyone seems to take only one side when the discuss this. Either the CS is going to mop the floor with whoever they're attacking, or the other force will outwit the stupid CS. Some battles are won against overwhelming odds due to luck or an incredible plan. And sometimes the numbers just win.

I can't imagine any current force in North America being able to seriously challenge the CS. Many will cause them untold grief, but as it stands, there isn't anyone to truly hold them in check. If the Federation of Magic can ever truly unite, then they can likely give them a run for their money. ( I can't remember much about Archie 3. Haven't looked in that book in years).

[Lenwen]

That's the thing Flatline. CS has fast movers that most of NA is not privy to, in numbers they can't imagine. To be big enough and bad enough to successfully "Ambush" Any element of the CS bigger than a platoon, and yet fast enough to get away before their airborne back up arrives is going to be rare indeed.

Atlantis is said to wonder Tolkeen ruins in front of CS forces, and not even bother worrying about them..

You won't be able to hide or get a large enough force "out' of the area after you engage for it to be viable.

So The Coalition forces, (who are slow in comparing to Atlantean forces) are thee only power on rifts earth, with quick response time what so ever ?

In short, elements large enough to TRY and prey on the CS are going to be too large to effectivly or quickly hide, and thus will be preyed upon BY the CS if they try it.

Wrong. Archie forces as well as Atlantean forces, can easily farm CS forces.. for anything they would want. And get out before more CS forces arrived, (If they chose to get out)

The CS hires mercs too and they pretty much hold the bank. The mercs working for you for 1K a week will turn on you if offererd 2K a week or 3, or 5... If it even takes that. Psibat has thousands of troops. the CS has mind melters. They could rip the information from captives.

Again, Archie bots would mop the floor with either mercs, Psi Bat or Mind melters with reletive ease. And Atlantean forces, would simply throw MORE mercs at the mercs to nuetralize them, and even MORE powerful psionic specialists against the CS's psionic specialists .. To easily down any element there of the CS.

EDIT : This shows two forces, that could easily take down a force twice to 3 times larger then themselves, when it comes to Coalition military forces against Archie bots, or Atlantean force easily.

[Blue_Lion]

Queenston could make an interesting locus for an alliance. It would be difficult with the distrust many people have for her renegade Splugorth minions, but hey she has a pyramid. If she had more pyramids built and properly defended she has incredible force mobility. If she could be convinced to actually use more tech she would have a better defense in depth. Warping a platoon a hundred miles away and then having them mount up in/on waiting vehicles would save a lot of time.

Kingsdale joining with the tribes and kingdoms in Kansas might be another decent alliance. Both factions either are suffering from CS imperialism disguised as patriotism or can expect to be targeted soon.

People seem to forget that other people in NA have special forces training or close enough. With the right gear you can sting the CS enough to force them to pull forces away from other plans. Even with the absurdly high estimate of 10% of the population under arms they don't have the people or equipment to engage across a large front. Demo plus traps is your friend. Placing water mines in the Mississippi is mean but the CS has made all sorts of enemies some do not play nice and never will. With actual magic you can do massive damage and then have the shifter port the four of you back to the nearest nexus to home. Summon demons for mayhem's sake. Target CS Missouri since they explicitly say that it is poorly defended even though it is the major breadbasket of CS.

If you figure out that one of their black ops units in in your area it is toast because they are out of communications. A shame they had to field test all that new gear in secret before the CWC time period. Some of it never came back, given that few in command knew where these units even were, meaning you have people who can arrange massacres to give CS a black eye. The BM can get almost any small arm the CS uses because a rifle is pretty easy to hide for an experienced smuggler. Vehicles are harder but not impossible. How many vehicles were "destroyed" in Tolkeen and FQ campaigns? You can still learn important info about a vehicle what shut down from the main body reaching zero MDC. Once you have a few of the new toys to look at you can figure out their weaknesses.

There are thousands of renegade CS soldiers and officers if several instances of them that show up in canon are any indicator. Not every CS renegade is good, some just hate the restrictions of CS playbook, some hated being back stabbed by the excessive number of Miscreant and Diabolic commanders. These people know the major commanders and their habits and are familiar with their doctrines and TO&E.

The CS has millions of D-Bees, many of which suffer regular abuse at the hands of dead boys. Take a few hundred from the various burbs and train them as insurgents then let them loose to commit sabotage and other guerrilla activities. ISS will have to call in regular army to handle major unrest or serious fighting in the streets. These people know the area better than the ISS goons. They are used to hiding to begin with. If they die who cares? They stuck it to Prosek and died heroes. Psych warfare is still warfare. The CS needs to keep D-bees in the burbs as easily visible boogie men to scare the sheeple in the cities, also food for Psi-stalkers.

None of this would actually work to 'hurt' the CS though.The CS has so many troops, that even if they lost 10... 20... 50... 100 to one, against a foe, the CS is still going to outlast that foe. And no matter how good your PC's are, focused fire from 10 on one, you're going to die. 20, 50 or 100 on one and you're toast.

Can gurillia tactics take out a few CS troops here. Some there? Sure, if the CS are played like brain dead idiots shooting at the sun and what not. Even via surprise you can jump small elements of the CS and all. But the overall answer is. "Superior numbers/Superior Equipment/Superior Supply Chains" If you're fighting an enemy that can just zerg you with 10 times your troops, 20 times your troops. 50 times your troops. 100 times your troops and not only that, but eat up that kind of loss. you're not going to win.

2.5-3+ Million humans.
2.4 Million Dogboys.

The CS has so many troops that --no one-- in NA can stand against them. They might bloody the CS nose, but the the CS is going to turn them into a crater. Thing is, this is no surprise. The books have -always- pointed out the CS is __THE POWER__ In NA. bar none. That if they turn their forces on you it's not a matter of 'If' they'll win, but how long you hold out before you die.

Once you factor in that not only do they have those numbers, but large percentages of those numbers are 5th+ level and have an almost endless supply, and resupply chain, you're just not going to beat them with anything in NA. The only force IN NA that could try would be the Xits. And they're not teaming up with anyone. They're equal opportunity invasion monsters.

Atlantis, could beat them if they rift in forces from offworld but they're held in check by the Megaversal powers that be and aren't really "in" NA. They're 'in' Atlantis.

This statement shows a lack of understanding of what gorilla warfare is and how it affects your ability to fight.

No, it shows an understanding of large numbers, which is not universal.

By cannon CS is described as using tactics more akin to world war two and lacking in gorilla warfare. This is not playing them as idots but that the people in charge are following your line of thought of zerging to win.

They're also shown using other tactics. It depends on the enemy/situation.

In order to zerg a target you have to get your troops to the target. Gorilla warfare slows and can even stop the movement of large amounts of troops.

Not in the CS case. No, it doesn't. They have airmoble and deployable forces. A death's head transport can drop enough troops in one trip to handle most towns. A few of them can drop enough troops for many. Add as many as needed to deploy the troops, fast and MDC armored, where ever needed. Most other kingdoms have absolutely zero options to deal with them. And they fly pretty fast.

In order to field a large force you need to maintain supply lines Gorilla bleeds these lines and starves your front line troops.

Note: it's guerrilla, not gorilla. Unless you're talking about armies of (non human) Apes with black fur and what not.

Again. Not in this case. Do the CS need supply lines? Sure. Can guerrilla forces do much if anything to disrupt them? Nope. The CS is going to own the air where ever they're going. Deaths' Head transports with support. Be it Supersams, or one of the other 15 air units the CS have. Fly at altitude. Desend at speed. Land and resupply the troops. Or just have samus ferry the stuff down from altitude if you need to. Unlike our world, shooting a single rocket up at a DHT is just going to let it know where you are. You're not swatting MDC vehicles out of the air with a single shot. Some farmer with a shoulder mounted rocket isn't taking them out.

And that's just using the air. (Which they would.. because... 5 million plus troops.. why not) If they were on the ground, your guerrilla units aren't going to prey on the CS army any better. Sure you might get one transport. Maybe two before they realize your game. Then they simply move the stuff with enough support to shred anything that breathes for miles around. "Oh we have 20 highly trained troops!" That's great. Our supply lines are now protected by 200, highly trained troops. And power armor. And robot vehicles. And Skelebots. and and and and and and and and and... You lose.

Magic can stop all air travel restrict land movement allow attackers to escape change the land scape or create disposable troops.

This is thrown out alot. People like to claim a few spells that can 'do this'. It really can't. They're extremely localized, and tear up the area you're trying to denigh air travel to. "Oh we'll call a hurricane!! Oh crap we just destroyed our own town trying to keep the CS from flying in here!" *Shakes head* It's silly. If anything the CS could just hold station out side the limited radius of the effect till you run out of PPE. Or land and march in, if they were feeling very froggy. Or send a few snipers to vape the head of the mage casting and then fly on in.

The US Military recognizes that a smaller unit of gorilla warfighters can defeat much larger better equipped conventional armies. It is why developed special forces and ranger programs.

The US military is about one fourth, or 25% the size of the CS military. Not counting ISS and not counting skelebots, deployed around the world and protecting a country three times the size and about 10 times the population of the CS.

The CS has a military 4 times as large, before counting ISS, and Skelebots and what not, to defend 1/3rd the area, and other than a smallish deployment to help in Germany are all deployed 'stateside' for the CS.

You're not talking about ultra high tech guys, killing farmers and cave dwellers with AK47s. The CS are the ones with the better training, better equipped and endless supply of troops.

Again, if your group of 20 takes out a group of 100, and you lose 5 people, that's a net win for the CS. Your next engagement with 15 against 100 you lose 5 more... and again and again... you still lose. And that's assuming the CS is just morons and let you. Not only do they have modern day high tech, they have sci fi high tech, and mutant tracking animals that can use psionics to assist in tracking, and man sized power armor that can go 500mph if needed. They can carpet bomb miles of forests with MD bombs if need be to kill the 20 guys hiding there. It's not going to work the same.

So I would say it is not that others lack the ability to stop a CS attack

They utterly and completely lack the ability to stop the CS attack. At the very most they can bloody the CS nose, if the CS underestimates them. Then the CS pours enough troops and equipment on the fight to smother any opposition.

but doing so would be hard. The CS relies on numbers to win

Not 100% accurate. They -use- numbers to win. They don't 'Have' to use numbers to win. If you look through the books, the CS gear is very good gear. High MDC, decent to high MD output, and their actual troops are well trained representations. Is Traix a bit better? Sure. But they're not at war with Traix. You're talking about kingdoms whom at best have hired mercs, or trained their own people to merc equivalent. Are Merc OOCs decent? Sure. Do they utterly completely stomp the CS oocs? No. If you play the CS with half a brain, they can go toe to toe with most any unit at a 1-1 ratio. If you play them -smart- and use not only their brains but their tech, and all their advantages, you see why they dominate NA.

No other kingdom can field even remotely the numbers the CS can. Even a Navy Seal, as highly trained as they are, will fall if 50 guys are shooting at the one seal. And the CS aren't just idiots with guns. They're trained military. AND they have the numbers. They have both sides of the coin.

The CS could just as easily send in special forces to assassinate the leaders, or set a bomb and blow up the town, etc etc etc. 5million+ Troops. How many hundreds of thousands of special forces do you think they have that they could deploy? That's if the CS even chose to take the field. Noone else has Tolkeen's magic Nuke Swallower. They could just nuke anyone that they didn't like, if they were annoying enough.

other nations would need to rely on slowing and bleeding the CS advancement to defend themselves.

Other nations lack the ability to slow the CS and if they try and bleed them, they'll find the tactic doesn't work. As pointed out. Even at 50 to 1 losses, the CS __WILL__ outlast any nation in NA that tries it. (And that's assuming that sort of loss, which is pretty absurd)

It would be hard for them to do but is within there power, that is the reason that the CS has not just zerged and burned every magical kingdom in north America.

Untrue. The CS has not just burned every magic kingdom, because they're not complete morons. They have a time table and are doing so at their own convenience. Tolkeen talked real big. You see what happened to them. The fight went back and forth to sell RPG books to us fans but the CS won. In the SoT books, in world, Tarn and others told Tolkeen to run. To get out of the way, that the CS would destroy them. Tolkeen wanted the magic kingdoms to team up against the CS. Tolkeen was told "NO! Even if we DO team up. The CS will STILL WIN and KILL US ALL". It'd take longer, the CS would lose more but they'd still win. Now Tolkeen is gone. The other magic nations have seen the CS put the hammer down. Their own borders are swollen with 1000s of refugees they havve to house and feed, and it's not like all the refugees are combat troops. They're the 'non' combat sorts.

Note the I do not think that such tatics by themselves would lead crashing into the fortified super cities but would make attacking hard.

Only because you're thinking of it in modern standards. MD armor changes the equation. The NUMBERS change the Equation. The CS fields 5,000,000+ Troops with a population that most people wouldn't put over 30,000,000. The USA has over 314,000,000 and only fields about 1,400,000. Now if you look at it, you'd need to multiply our army by 4, and give each one of them a battle tank of his very own, just to equal the CS Grunts. And give them alot less turf they need to defend.

One missile won't bring down a MD transport. And when you try the CS is going to swarm you with their vast array of military might, depending on what they need. Be it their stealth bombers, be it 50 supersams moving 500 mph. Be it special forces to hunt you down and kill you where you sleep, whatever. Your guys hiding in the woods and taking popshots would be hunted down and slaughtered.

Not sure how long the CS can maintain any large loss of troops without seeing there high number of troops be unsustainable.

They have 5,000,000+ troops. They can maintain loss of troops a long time, but no force in NA can INFLICT large loss of troops against the CS with out a full out war, and.. as we've seen in tolkeen, the CS is willing to do so. The war with tolkeen went on for years (Again to sell books) And at the end... the CS broke even. Tolkeen is rubble.

As nearly 10% of there population is in the military it might get hard to find bodies if they need to replace large losses from gorilla warfare.

There wouldn't be large losses. MD Armor and such prevents it. Your guerrillas would pop up. take pop shots, kill a few CS and run like crazy in hopes they don't get killed. CS fast reaction units would come in and kill them. It's not like your guerrillas are going to have the ABILITY to take large numbers of CS. Because the CS aren't whimps. You'd need a force many times larger to take out a CS force quickly. Quickly is the key, because if the CS start to lose they're calling in Air support, to bring the rain. The other kingdoms in NA don't have this. If you need 100 guys to take out 20 CS, then you're just not inflicting heavy losses. Not out of a pool of millions. If you field forces big enough to do such a thing, they're not a guerrilla force, they're a standing army of 100s to 1000s of troops. Where in the CS could just roll out 10s of 1000s and wipe the floor with them.

You're tactic is trying to empty an ocean with a bucket. No matter how fast you bail the water, it's not going to work.

Even taking parts of there armies from non CS humans but there is a limit to how many they can get.

Um.. wut?

(Also The CS is now stuck with a magical version of our war in Iraq in the occupied formally magical kingdom of Tolkeen, fighting a prolonged war with insurgents with access to magic has to be hard as heck even for the CS.)

Nope. The CS has just recruited 1,000,000 to fight the demons and devils who popped up there (and elsewhere). There isn't a 'tolkeen' left. It's rubble that has rifts over it and now demons and devils.

I understand numbers and I understand tactics by the books CS is poor at gorilla warfare, that is why they could not crush FQ or Tolkeen quickly. Even the CS SF and rangers are not as good at is as mage millita and FQ and the CS grunts allot worse. That is why they are not just steam rolling all magical kingdoms in north America


The CS may have air mobiles that can move troops but the mages can stop all air travel. There are spells that clearly say they stop all air travel.

Tolkeen may have been destroyed but the impression I got from after math is there was still restence/insurgency forces hindering the CS occupation of the territory.

People have been talking about numbers let me ask you this where did the CS get this new million people or what book does it talk about it so I can look it up. Is it 1 million new CS troops or 1 million shifted from some where.

let me ask you this how are the CS fast reactions units suppose to find people hiding in the woods while moving quickly. What happens when some one magically changes the terrain to make it harder to find them. Or go undetectable while the fast movers go past them. Or use magic to summon something to stop and or hinder your fast movers. Rather than just focusing on what the CS can do you need to think about what non CS forces can do to mess with them and take a step back and really think about it. TW storm flairs found in the original vampire kingdoms according to books as written can stop all air travel reduce vision and slow ground vehicle speed. Combine perfect tool for gorilla warfare.

You are coming across as there is nothing that a kindom with access to magic can do to stop fast CS troop transport when there are many options according to the books.

MD armor may keep people alive longer but you still would loose troops. All it I takes is soldiers being soldiers and you will loose troops to gorilla warfare hands down. Not much the CS can do to stop 70pounds of NG MD plastic explosives from being teleported near there troops and getting blown up.

Do not just think of what the CS can do but you have to look at what others can do and how it affects the ability of the CS to fight. Gorilla warfare is the art of a smaller less well equipped slowing and defeated larger better armed units.


(By all means if you have a quote saying the CS military is good at gorilla warfare I would love to see it and if truly applies to all the CS or just some rare unit.)

[Tor]

Lazlo will Never team-up with the Evil Fed of Magic.

FoM is not universally evil, I don't even think you could say that of City of Brass (within Kingdom of Dunscon) although in that case it's predominantly evil. An alliance between Dweomer and Lazlo is feasible to me. Sure, Dweomer lets demons hang out, but they hate necros (I find that odd) and I'm sure Lazlo has the occasional demon too.

in the long run dweomers best defense is simply its highly difficult for a tech force to locate it. If it ever does get found out would be pretty vulnerable no matter who it allied with.

It's possible by that time they will find a way to match and perhaps exceed all the cool defenses Tolkeen or Stormspire came up with. The Three should also be possible of making extra-dimensional bases and maybe dispersing the city to it and then creating access points at Magestar or various Fadetowns. Another possibility would be to take over the City of Brass. Alistair seems to be gaining in popularity faster than the Three post-SoT though so that's a problem.

The Controllers that Dweomer all rely on are great at called shots so they should also be better at shooting down the missiles that weakened Tolkeen. They also have range-boosts via their Automatons which would make a HUGE difference.

Since Alistair hangs with necros, possibly the backlash against association with types like Grim Reapers (Murder Wraiths) or Soulharvest (Nxla) will eventually bite him (maybe Psyscape smacks him too) and make City of Brass vulnerable.

You can't really consider the FoM a true alliance. Some of the kingdoms fall under Dunscons rule, but many are completely autonomous, and many will never assist their neighbours. Until they actually stand united, they are no more than an irritation to the CS.

You don't have to be unified under a monarch to be an alliance. FoM is united, just like the Federation of Planets in Star Trek. there's just a lot more politics when it comes to who deserves what.

The CS is going to own the air where ever they're going.

Why should we take this for granted? Anti-missile strategies exist (and missiles are expensive) and there are weapons which can match the (albeit impressive) range of non-missile CS weapons used. Even if they lack those weapons, other strategies exist like using Targeted Deflection.

You're not swatting MDC vehicles out of the air with a single shot. Some farmer with a shoulder mounted rocket isn't taking them out.

A called shot from a Boom Gun might manage to do it though. Also: unless you want to go park at a garage every time a farmer pegs you with a LAW, the damage can built up and eventually compromise the ship.

People like to claim a few spells that can 'do this'. It really can't. They're extremely localized, and tear up the area you're trying to denigh air travel to. "Oh we'll call a hurricane!! Oh crap we just destroyed our own town trying to keep the CS from flying in here!" *Shakes head* It's silly. If anything the CS could just hold station out side the limited radius of the effect till you run out of PPE. Or land and march in, if they were feeling very froggy. Or send a few snipers to vape the head of the mage casting and then fly on in.

1) you position the spell between yourself and the CS, not on top of yourself
2) a lot of stuff like fog/smoke are not a threat to buildings like they are to moving vehicles
3) they may be able to access enough PPE to keep barriers up indefinitely:
*a Summon Fog TW device could cut the costs down and it already covers mile/level area for hour/level to begin with, with a range that outstrips many missiles
*same with Summon/Control Storm, neither are rituals, in this case every couple miles you gotta roll to avoid probs

4) if your flying units are waiting outside, this makes them vulnerable if they're parked or prone to overheating if flying
5) the mage doesn't need to be in an exposed position to maintain these spells and may not be identifiable (or available) for sniping prior to initiating them

[Lenwen]

The CS is going to own the air where ever they're going

Not even remotely close to true.. Against Tolkeen they were unable to achieve air superiority for the duration of the war.. While Tolkeen completely and utterly resisted entire years worth of ranged bombardment in the forms of artillery and missiles.. With out any real trouble .

So hands Down with out question the CS will not have air superiority no matter what where they go .. That much is in fact canon.

[flatline]

The CS is going to own the air where ever they're going

Not even remotely close to true.. Against Tolkeen they were unable to achieve air superiority for the duration of the war.. While Tolkeen completely and utterly resisted entire years worth of ranged bombardment in the forms of artillery and missiles.. With out any real trouble .

So hands Down with out question the CS will not have air superiority no matter what where they go .. That much is in fact canon.

Here are two opinions on opposite ends of the spectrum. I think, instead, that it will lie somewhere in the middle.

Warlocks can flood the air with Phantoms and any unit that gets too close will be attacked by Call Lightning (5d6MD, no chance to dodge). Enough Phantoms over a wide area and you have an extremely effective shield against missiles and enemy vehicles. And the air elemental essences can fly higher than any CS aircraft, if it matters.

But it's hard to ignore the amount of firepower the CS can put in the air.

Air denial is not the same as air superiority, but it's close.

--flatline

[Pepsi Jedi]

That's the thing Flatline. CS has fast movers that most of NA is not privy to, in numbers they can't imagine.

All of which can be accounted for with the proper plan and abilities/equipment.

To be big enough and bad enough to successfully "Ambush" Any element of the CS bigger than a platoon, and yet fast enough to get away before their airborne back up arrives is going to be rare indeed. The force would have to be astoundingly overwhelming to try it. It's not like sniper shots are going to drop 30 CS troops in armor and blow up their APC in one round. When the drek hits the fan the CS is calling for air-support and backup. That air-support is going to arrive very fast. Supersams can tool around at 500mph and some of the jets faster.

You're assuming that it takes an army to fight an army.

If you have the ability to engage a sub-set of troops without the rest of the forces even knowing it's happening until it's too late, then this can be successful. When the airpower arrives, if they don't have a target to shoot at, they're useless.

You won't be able to hide or get a large enough force "out' of the area after you engage for it to be viable.

Quit assuming it's a large force. A party of five can disappear with the proper abilities or preparations.

And yes. You've discussed your 'way' before. I still maintain you try it once or twice and they're sicking the Psistalkers, Dogboys, Psibat on you which eliminates your 'edge'. *Chuckles* And not everyone's going to have your temporal guy to even try your trick. It's a one trick pony that would be quickly.

Because patrols outside CS territory have the full support of Psibat, right? At their finger tips?

As the targets, the CS doesn't get to chose where and when they're attacked. At best they could attempt to lure the group into a trap. Clearly, the group would have to be wary.

In short, elements large enough to TRY and prey on the CS are going to be too large to effectivly or quickly hide, and thus will be preyed upon BY the CS if they try it.

The CS hires mercs too and they pretty much hold the bank. The mercs working for you for 1K a week will turn on you if offererd 2K a week or 3, or 5... If it even takes that. Psibat has thousands of troops. the CS has mind melters. They could ripthe information from captives.

Again, all these things can be accounted for in the planning and preparation. Perhaps you don't use mercs? Or if you need mercs, you get mercs from Phase World who will never interact with local merc units? If the group didn't have the resources to make it work, then they wouldn't attempt it. But if they do have the resources to make it work, then they can make it work.

--flatline

Your party of 5 isn't going to be able to kill enough CS troops to make any difference. The way the rules work, your party of 5 only have so many actions, and the CS can focus fire. using ALL their actions on guy 1, then guy 2 then guy 3, etc. It's great to just kinda hand wave at it, but in application the CS turns around and shreds you with focused sustained firepower.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Queenston could make an interesting locus for an alliance. It would be difficult with the distrust many people have for her renegade Splugorth minions, but hey she has a pyramid. If she had more pyramids built and properly defended she has incredible force mobility. If she could be convinced to actually use more tech she would have a better defense in depth. Warping a platoon a hundred miles away and then having them mount up in/on waiting vehicles would save a lot of time.

Kingsdale joining with the tribes and kingdoms in Kansas might be another decent alliance. Both factions either are suffering from CS imperialism disguised as patriotism or can expect to be targeted soon.

People seem to forget that other people in NA have special forces training or close enough. With the right gear you can sting the CS enough to force them to pull forces away from other plans. Even with the absurdly high estimate of 10% of the population under arms they don't have the people or equipment to engage across a large front. Demo plus traps is your friend. Placing water mines in the Mississippi is mean but the CS has made all sorts of enemies some do not play nice and never will. With actual magic you can do massive damage and then have the shifter port the four of you back to the nearest nexus to home. Summon demons for mayhem's sake. Target CS Missouri since they explicitly say that it is poorly defended even though it is the major breadbasket of CS.

If you figure out that one of their black ops units in in your area it is toast because they are out of communications. A shame they had to field test all that new gear in secret before the CWC time period. Some of it never came back, given that few in command knew where these units even were, meaning you have people who can arrange massacres to give CS a black eye. The BM can get almost any small arm the CS uses because a rifle is pretty easy to hide for an experienced smuggler. Vehicles are harder but not impossible. How many vehicles were "destroyed" in Tolkeen and FQ campaigns? You can still learn important info about a vehicle what shut down from the main body reaching zero MDC. Once you have a few of the new toys to look at you can figure out their weaknesses.

There are thousands of renegade CS soldiers and officers if several instances of them that show up in canon are any indicator. Not every CS renegade is good, some just hate the restrictions of CS playbook, some hated being back stabbed by the excessive number of Miscreant and Diabolic commanders. These people know the major commanders and their habits and are familiar with their doctrines and TO&E.

The CS has millions of D-Bees, many of which suffer regular abuse at the hands of dead boys. Take a few hundred from the various burbs and train them as insurgents then let them loose to commit sabotage and other guerrilla activities. ISS will have to call in regular army to handle major unrest or serious fighting in the streets. These people know the area better than the ISS goons. They are used to hiding to begin with. If they die who cares? They stuck it to Prosek and died heroes. Psych warfare is still warfare. The CS needs to keep D-bees in the burbs as easily visible boogie men to scare the sheeple in the cities, also food for Psi-stalkers.

None of this would actually work to 'hurt' the CS though.The CS has so many troops, that even if they lost 10... 20... 50... 100 to one, against a foe, the CS is still going to outlast that foe. And no matter how good your PC's are, focused fire from 10 on one, you're going to die. 20, 50 or 100 on one and you're toast.

Can gurillia tactics take out a few CS troops here. Some there? Sure, if the CS are played like brain dead idiots shooting at the sun and what not. Even via surprise you can jump small elements of the CS and all. But the overall answer is. "Superior numbers/Superior Equipment/Superior Supply Chains" If you're fighting an enemy that can just zerg you with 10 times your troops, 20 times your troops. 50 times your troops. 100 times your troops and not only that, but eat up that kind of loss. you're not going to win.

2.5-3+ Million humans.
2.4 Million Dogboys.

The CS has so many troops that --no one-- in NA can stand against them. They might bloody the CS nose, but the the CS is going to turn them into a crater. Thing is, this is no surprise. The books have -always- pointed out the CS is __THE POWER__ In NA. bar none. That if they turn their forces on you it's not a matter of 'If' they'll win, but how long you hold out before you die.

Once you factor in that not only do they have those numbers, but large percentages of those numbers are 5th+ level and have an almost endless supply, and resupply chain, you're just not going to beat them with anything in NA. The only force IN NA that could try would be the Xits. And they're not teaming up with anyone. They're equal opportunity invasion monsters.

Atlantis, could beat them if they rift in forces from offworld but they're held in check by the Megaversal powers that be and aren't really "in" NA. They're 'in' Atlantis.

This statement shows a lack of understanding of what gorilla warfare is and how it affects your ability to fight.

No, it shows an understanding of large numbers, which is not universal.

By cannon CS is described as using tactics more akin to world war two and lacking in gorilla warfare. This is not playing them as idots but that the people in charge are following your line of thought of zerging to win.

They're also shown using other tactics. It depends on the enemy/situation.

In order to zerg a target you have to get your troops to the target. Gorilla warfare slows and can even stop the movement of large amounts of troops.

Not in the CS case. No, it doesn't. They have airmoble and deployable forces. A death's head transport can drop enough troops in one trip to handle most towns. A few of them can drop enough troops for many. Add as many as needed to deploy the troops, fast and MDC armored, where ever needed. Most other kingdoms have absolutely zero options to deal with them. And they fly pretty fast.

In order to field a large force you need to maintain supply lines Gorilla bleeds these lines and starves your front line troops.

Note: it's guerrilla, not gorilla. Unless you're talking about armies of (non human) Apes with black fur and what not.

Again. Not in this case. Do the CS need supply lines? Sure. Can guerrilla forces do much if anything to disrupt them? Nope. The CS is going to own the air where ever they're going. Deaths' Head transports with support. Be it Supersams, or one of the other 15 air units the CS have. Fly at altitude. Desend at speed. Land and resupply the troops. Or just have samus ferry the stuff down from altitude if you need to. Unlike our world, shooting a single rocket up at a DHT is just going to let it know where you are. You're not swatting MDC vehicles out of the air with a single shot. Some farmer with a shoulder mounted rocket isn't taking them out.

And that's just using the air. (Which they would.. because... 5 million plus troops.. why not) If they were on the ground, your guerrilla units aren't going to prey on the CS army any better. Sure you might get one transport. Maybe two before they realize your game. Then they simply move the stuff with enough support to shred anything that breathes for miles around. "Oh we have 20 highly trained troops!" That's great. Our supply lines are now protected by 200, highly trained troops. And power armor. And robot vehicles. And Skelebots. and and and and and and and and and... You lose.

Magic can stop all air travel restrict land movement allow attackers to escape change the land scape or create disposable troops.

This is thrown out alot. People like to claim a few spells that can 'do this'. It really can't. They're extremely localized, and tear up the area you're trying to denigh air travel to. "Oh we'll call a hurricane!! Oh crap we just destroyed our own town trying to keep the CS from flying in here!" *Shakes head* It's silly. If anything the CS could just hold station out side the limited radius of the effect till you run out of PPE. Or land and march in, if they were feeling very froggy. Or send a few snipers to vape the head of the mage casting and then fly on in.

The US Military recognizes that a smaller unit of gorilla warfighters can defeat much larger better equipped conventional armies. It is why developed special forces and ranger programs.

The US military is about one fourth, or 25% the size of the CS military. Not counting ISS and not counting skelebots, deployed around the world and protecting a country three times the size and about 10 times the population of the CS.

The CS has a military 4 times as large, before counting ISS, and Skelebots and what not, to defend 1/3rd the area, and other than a smallish deployment to help in Germany are all deployed 'stateside' for the CS.

You're not talking about ultra high tech guys, killing farmers and cave dwellers with AK47s. The CS are the ones with the better training, better equipped and endless supply of troops.

Again, if your group of 20 takes out a group of 100, and you lose 5 people, that's a net win for the CS. Your next engagement with 15 against 100 you lose 5 more... and again and again... you still lose. And that's assuming the CS is just morons and let you. Not only do they have modern day high tech, they have sci fi high tech, and mutant tracking animals that can use psionics to assist in tracking, and man sized power armor that can go 500mph if needed. They can carpet bomb miles of forests with MD bombs if need be to kill the 20 guys hiding there. It's not going to work the same.

So I would say it is not that others lack the ability to stop a CS attack

They utterly and completely lack the ability to stop the CS attack. At the very most they can bloody the CS nose, if the CS underestimates them. Then the CS pours enough troops and equipment on the fight to smother any opposition.

but doing so would be hard. The CS relies on numbers to win

Not 100% accurate. They -use- numbers to win. They don't 'Have' to use numbers to win. If you look through the books, the CS gear is very good gear. High MDC, decent to high MD output, and their actual troops are well trained representations. Is Traix a bit better? Sure. But they're not at war with Traix. You're talking about kingdoms whom at best have hired mercs, or trained their own people to merc equivalent. Are Merc OOCs decent? Sure. Do they utterly completely stomp the CS oocs? No. If you play the CS with half a brain, they can go toe to toe with most any unit at a 1-1 ratio. If you play them -smart- and use not only their brains but their tech, and all their advantages, you see why they dominate NA.

No other kingdom can field even remotely the numbers the CS can. Even a Navy Seal, as highly trained as they are, will fall if 50 guys are shooting at the one seal. And the CS aren't just idiots with guns. They're trained military. AND they have the numbers. They have both sides of the coin.

The CS could just as easily send in special forces to assassinate the leaders, or set a bomb and blow up the town, etc etc etc. 5million+ Troops. How many hundreds of thousands of special forces do you think they have that they could deploy? That's if the CS even chose to take the field. Noone else has Tolkeen's magic Nuke Swallower. They could just nuke anyone that they didn't like, if they were annoying enough.

other nations would need to rely on slowing and bleeding the CS advancement to defend themselves.

Other nations lack the ability to slow the CS and if they try and bleed them, they'll find the tactic doesn't work. As pointed out. Even at 50 to 1 losses, the CS __WILL__ outlast any nation in NA that tries it. (And that's assuming that sort of loss, which is pretty absurd)

It would be hard for them to do but is within there power, that is the reason that the CS has not just zerged and burned every magical kingdom in north America.

Untrue. The CS has not just burned every magic kingdom, because they're not complete morons. They have a time table and are doing so at their own convenience. Tolkeen talked real big. You see what happened to them. The fight went back and forth to sell RPG books to us fans but the CS won. In the SoT books, in world, Tarn and others told Tolkeen to run. To get out of the way, that the CS would destroy them. Tolkeen wanted the magic kingdoms to team up against the CS. Tolkeen was told "NO! Even if we DO team up. The CS will STILL WIN and KILL US ALL". It'd take longer, the CS would lose more but they'd still win. Now Tolkeen is gone. The other magic nations have seen the CS put the hammer down. Their own borders are swollen with 1000s of refugees they havve to house and feed, and it's not like all the refugees are combat troops. They're the 'non' combat sorts.

Note the I do not think that such tatics by themselves would lead crashing into the fortified super cities but would make attacking hard.

Only because you're thinking of it in modern standards. MD armor changes the equation. The NUMBERS change the Equation. The CS fields 5,000,000+ Troops with a population that most people wouldn't put over 30,000,000. The USA has over 314,000,000 and only fields about 1,400,000. Now if you look at it, you'd need to multiply our army by 4, and give each one of them a battle tank of his very own, just to equal the CS Grunts. And give them alot less turf they need to defend.

One missile won't bring down a MD transport. And when you try the CS is going to swarm you with their vast array of military might, depending on what they need. Be it their stealth bombers, be it 50 supersams moving 500 mph. Be it special forces to hunt you down and kill you where you sleep, whatever. Your guys hiding in the woods and taking popshots would be hunted down and slaughtered.

Not sure how long the CS can maintain any large loss of troops without seeing there high number of troops be unsustainable.

They have 5,000,000+ troops. They can maintain loss of troops a long time, but no force in NA can INFLICT large loss of troops against the CS with out a full out war, and.. as we've seen in tolkeen, the CS is willing to do so. The war with tolkeen went on for years (Again to sell books) And at the end... the CS broke even. Tolkeen is rubble.

As nearly 10% of there population is in the military it might get hard to find bodies if they need to replace large losses from gorilla warfare.

There wouldn't be large losses. MD Armor and such prevents it. Your guerrillas would pop up. take pop shots, kill a few CS and run like crazy in hopes they don't get killed. CS fast reaction units would come in and kill them. It's not like your guerrillas are going to have the ABILITY to take large numbers of CS. Because the CS aren't whimps. You'd need a force many times larger to take out a CS force quickly. Quickly is the key, because if the CS start to lose they're calling in Air support, to bring the rain. The other kingdoms in NA don't have this. If you need 100 guys to take out 20 CS, then you're just not inflicting heavy losses. Not out of a pool of millions. If you field forces big enough to do such a thing, they're not a guerrilla force, they're a standing army of 100s to 1000s of troops. Where in the CS could just roll out 10s of 1000s and wipe the floor with them.

You're tactic is trying to empty an ocean with a bucket. No matter how fast you bail the water, it's not going to work.

Even taking parts of there armies from non CS humans but there is a limit to how many they can get.

Um.. wut?

(Also The CS is now stuck with a magical version of our war in Iraq in the occupied formally magical kingdom of Tolkeen, fighting a prolonged war with insurgents with access to magic has to be hard as heck even for the CS.)

Nope. The CS has just recruited 1,000,000 to fight the demons and devils who popped up there (and elsewhere). There isn't a 'tolkeen' left. It's rubble that has rifts over it and now demons and devils.

I understand numbers and I understand tactics by the books CS is poor at gorilla warfare,

Guerrilla. The CS is not fighting apes throwing rocks. Guerrilla warfare. Not warfare with African primates who's best trick is twisting leaves together to form a nest.

More over, the books don't say the CS is bad at guerrilla warfare, they show that by and large the CS don't bother with it. There's a difference.

that is why they could not crush FQ or Tolkeen quickly.

Um.. Noo.... FQ the CS was't 'all in' and hadn't moved much past border skirmishes when the stuff with Tolkeen kicked off and then the CS stopped the war with FQ. Tolkeen's war lasted like it did, to sell books. Palladium is a book company and the war bounced back and forth to sell the series of books. Realisticly tolkeen's war should have ended when the ICBMs fired off.

Even the CS SF and rangers are not as good at is as mage millita and FQ and the CS grunts allot worse.

.... Because you say so? Cite your source on this? By all accounts the CS rangers and Special forces rock at what they do. Where are you seeing that they suck?

That is why they are not just steam rolling all magical kingdoms in north America

RIGHT! Wait.... they've gone to war with one magical Kingdom in NA.... they went to war... and Tolkeen is rubble... and at the end... the CS broke even with numbers and military strength.... So... Tolkeen is erased and reduced to rubble. It's army destroyed. It's population nothing but refugees and a few handfulls of idiots that don't know when they've lost...

When exactly has the CS --NOT-- Steamrolled a magical kingdom it's chosen to fight?

The CS may have air mobiles that can move troops but the mages can stop all air travel. There are spells that clearly say they stop all air travel.

The spell you're referencing destroys the area it's cast on. lol They have a couple of spells that can make it difficult they cost alot of PPE, aren't 'common' and again, Casting a hurricane on your own turf as "Defense" is really stupid. "Oh gosh! Someone's comng to kill us! Quick! Cast that spell that kills us too and destroys the town and the area!"

Tolkeen may have been destroyed but the impression I got from after math is there was still restence/insurgency forces hindering the CS occupation of the territory.

There is. But it's ineffectual. They might pop off a few CS troops here. A few there. Again it's trying to empty the ocean with a bucket. No matter how fast you bail the water, it just has no real effect. It's that problem some people have with honestly conceptualizing Five MILLION Troops. You could take out 100 and it would barely raise a blip. They have more troops than that, fetching postit notes at any point in time.

People have been talking about numbers let me ask you this where did the CS get this new million people or what book does it talk about it so I can look it up. Is it 1 million new CS troops or 1 million shifted from some where.

Megaverse in flames. One million new troops signed up once the MiF stuff kicked off. This was in addition to 2.5 to 3 million+ Troops they already had and 2.4million+ Dogboys.

(Not for nothing but there's like 3 or 4 other threads right now going on at length about that. lol)

let me ask you this how are the CS fast reactions units suppose to find people hiding in the woods while moving quickly.

If you're moving quickly in woods you make stuff move... you look for the moving foilage and blow it up with MD weapons. Or you carpet bomb the area destroying anything that's notMD. when the MD stuff twiches you focus fire... or radar, or power armor, etc etc etc.

Also remember "Moving quickly" in woods is relative. Unless you're blasting THROUGH the trees. You're not moving that quickly in the woods. Running speed isn't that fast when power armor can hit 500 mph

What happens when some one magically changes the terrain to make it harder to find them.

Dogboys. Of which they have over 2 million. Then you go shadowrun, kill the mage first.

Or go undetectable while the fast movers go past them.

Dogboys. They sense magic and hunt you and kill you.

Or use magic to summon something to stop and or hinder your fast movers.

Kill it. Then kill the mage. You act like these are big problems. Seldom is it true. Mages can't even wear armor. You kill the mage and go about your business.

Rather than just focusing on what the CS can do you need to think about what non CS forces can do to mess with them and take a step back and really think about it.

Oh I have. That's the thing. The forces fighting the CS fall into two catagories. 1) Conventional. Where in the CS out mans and out guns them in the end. or 2) Magical. Where in their range is paltry and the CS can just sit out at middle range and shred them, and or send in the dog boys to kill the few mages, then revert back to 1) Where their conventional forces will be hugely outnumbered and outgunned.

There's more details to it. Groups could be a 'thorn in the side' but with the CS numbers, that's all they could really hope to be. Once they elevate themselves past 'thorn' they will be addressed and neutralized.

TW storm flairs found in the original vampire kingdoms according to books as written can stop all air travel reduce vision and slow ground vehicle speed. Combine perfect tool for gorilla warfare.

Nope. Apes traditionally don't cast magic.

You are coming across as there is nothing that a kindom with access to magic can do to stop fast CS troop transport when there are many options according to the books.

There's really not. Not if you read the spells and understand that casting a hurricane on your own town is very self defeating. And how low the range is on 99% of the spells. You can throw a rock further than many spells can reach.

MD armor may keep people alive longer but you still would loose troops.

Some. Again. bucket and the sea.

All it I takes is soldiers being soldiers and you will loose troops to gorilla warfare hands down.

No. Gorilla's dont' orginize into armies or have any way to hurt MD armor wearing guys. I mean they could sit on them but a simple vibroblade will end a gorilla with one strike. Two tops.

Not much the CS can do to stop 70pounds of NG MD plastic explosives from being teleported near there troops and getting blown up.

Kill the mage.

Do not just think of what the CS can do but you have to look at what others can do and how it affects the ability of the CS to fight. Gorilla warfare is the art of a smaller less well equipped slowing and defeated larger better armed units.

No. Gorilla warfare is a primate flinging poop or maybe a rock.

(By all means if you have a quote saying the CS military is good at gorilla warfare I would love to see it and if truly applies to all the CS or just some rare unit.)

Don't have to. Gorilla's are not native to North America.

[flatline]

Your party of 5 isn't going to be able to kill enough CS troops to make any difference. The way the rules work, your party of 5 only have so many actions, and the CS can focus fire. using ALL their actions on guy 1, then guy 2 then guy 3, etc. It's great to just kinda hand wave at it, but in application the CS turns around and shreds you with focused sustained firepower.

Focused sustained firepower is only effective if the troops have a target to focus their firepower at.

You've read my stories. You know that's not how we do things.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

Flatline, what happens if your party is hit by Anti-Magic Cloud, and/or Negate Super Powers?

[flatline]

Flatline, what happens if your party is hit by Anti-Magic Cloud, and/or Negate Super Powers?

Potentially very bad things. Negate Super Powers would probably be more dangerous than Anti-Magic Cloud, but it's been a while since I looked at Negate Super Powers so I'm not sure. If it has short enough range, then maybe no danger at all.

Out of curiosity, what does Anti-Magic Cloud do to an already created Dimensional Envelope? If it doesn't cause summoned creatures to unsummon, I would guess that it would have no effect on a Dimensional Envelope. Clearly the GM's call.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

Yup. I'd say GM's call.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Flatline, what happens if your party is hit by Anti-Magic Cloud, and/or Negate Super Powers?

Potentially very bad things. Negate Super Powers would probably be more dangerous than Anti-Magic Cloud, but it's been a while since I looked at Negate Super Powers so I'm not sure. If it has short enough range, then maybe no danger at all.

Out of curiosity, what does Anti-Magic Cloud do to an already created Dimensional Envelope? If it doesn't cause summoned creatures to unsummon, I would guess that it would have no effect on a Dimensional Envelope. Clearly the GM's call.

--flatline

Negate super abilities has a range of 120'+10' per level when focused on one being, or a flat 10' per level radius that you can center up to 60' away if you are denying all beings in an area their super powers.

Diimensional envelops or dimensional pockets are not destroyed, but inaccessable for the duration of the anti-magic cloud, sinse the text says "The item is not destroyed, but loses it's effect" under the anti-magic cloud discription. Thus by definition your dimensional envelope/pocket is not destroyed, but it's effect (acting as a bridge between here and a small pocket dimension) is temporarily surpressed.

[flatline]

Flatline, what happens if your party is hit by Anti-Magic Cloud, and/or Negate Super Powers?

Potentially very bad things. Negate Super Powers would probably be more dangerous than Anti-Magic Cloud, but it's been a while since I looked at Negate Super Powers so I'm not sure. If it has short enough range, then maybe no danger at all.

Out of curiosity, what does Anti-Magic Cloud do to an already created Dimensional Envelope? If it doesn't cause summoned creatures to unsummon, I would guess that it would have no effect on a Dimensional Envelope. Clearly the GM's call.

--flatline

Negate super abilities has a range of 120'+10' per level when focused on one being, or a flat 10' per level radius that you can center up to 60' away if you are denying all beings in an area their super powers.

In this case, Negate Super Abilities could be a problem for one party member since she typically gets in close. If someone is shrunk when they are hit by NSA, do they remain their current size or do they revert to their normal size? The other super on the team would likely never be close enough to be influenced by NSA.

Dimensional envelops or dimensional pockets are not destroyed, but inaccessable for the duration of the anti-magic cloud, since the text says "The item is not destroyed, but loses it's effect" under the anti-magic cloud description. Thus by definition your dimensional envelope/pocket is not destroyed, but it's effect (acting as a bridge between here and a small pocket dimension) is temporarily surppressed.

In the unlikely event that the Dimensional Envelopes were in the area effect of Anti-Magic Cloud (it's something like 100' per level radius?, right?), that could be annoying.

Some plans depend on Talismans or Scrolls working, so A-MC could cause the team to have to abort some or all of the plan.

The real question is whether or not the team could learn of these capabilities in time to adjust or abort the plan. All targets are scoped out by our Mind Bleeder (he typically uses Mentally Possess Others to possess a small bird or animal and then changes the aura to hide the possession and presence of magic and psionic abilities). He's typically the one who makes the go/no-go decision for the team.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

Huh.
How's your psycho. Know how to fly?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Flatline, what happens if your party is hit by Anti-Magic Cloud, and/or Negate Super Powers?

Potentially very bad things. Negate Super Powers would probably be more dangerous than Anti-Magic Cloud, but it's been a while since I looked at Negate Super Powers so I'm not sure. If it has short enough range, then maybe no danger at all.

Out of curiosity, what does Anti-Magic Cloud do to an already created Dimensional Envelope? If it doesn't cause summoned creatures to unsummon, I would guess that it would have no effect on a Dimensional Envelope. Clearly the GM's call.

--flatline

Negate super abilities has a range of 120'+10' per level when focused on one being, or a flat 10' per level radius that you can center up to 60' away if you are denying all beings in an area their super powers.

In this case, Negate Super Abilities could be a problem for one party member since she typically gets in close. If someone is shrunk when they are hit by NSA, do they remain their current size or do they revert to their normal size? The other super on the team would likely never be close enough to be influenced by NSA.

They are rendered as if they were never able to use the power, which means they would be forced back to standard size for the duration.

Dimensional envelops or dimensional pockets are not destroyed, but inaccessable for the duration of the anti-magic cloud, since the text says "The item is not destroyed, but loses it's effect" under the anti-magic cloud description. Thus by definition your dimensional envelope/pocket is not destroyed, but it's effect (acting as a bridge between here and a small pocket dimension) is temporarily surppressed.

In the unlikely event that the Dimensional Envelopes were in the area effect of Anti-Magic Cloud (it's something like 100' per level radius?, right?), that could be annoying.

Some plans depend on Talismans or Scrolls working, so A-MC could cause the team to have to abort some or all of the plan.

The real question is whether or not the team could learn of these capabilities in time to adjust or abort the plan. All targets are scoped out by our Mind Bleeder (he typically uses Mentally Possess Others to possess a small bird or animal and then changes the aura to hide the possession and presence of magic and psionic abilities). He's typically the one who makes the go/no-go decision for the team.

--flatline

correct, AMC is 100' per level of experiance, more if cast on a ley line/nexus as usual.

[flatline]

Huh.
How's your psycho. Know how to fly?

By possessing birds and practicing until he knows how to do it. Assuming, of course, that the GM doesn't just rule that when you possess a bird, you can use flight automatically.

I created a thread here not too long ago (when I found the old character notes for this character) asking exactly those kinds of questions and for the most part, people just thought that flight would automatically be usable. You are certainly welcome to weigh in on that thread if you'd like (viewtopic.php?f=8&t=147247).

Edit: couldn't a Mind Bleeder simply pull the knowledge of how to fly from the bird before possessing it using Bleed Skill?

--flatline