APRJ shotgun rounds: then and now

[flatline]

Finally picked up Juicer Uprising our of curiosity. Noticed this in the entry of the NG-11S "Sawed Off" description on page 74:

APRJ (Armor-Piercing Ramjet) Rounds: 3D6MD...200 credits each.

The GMG has the following updated stats on page 157: 2D6MD...20 credits each.

I had read in older threads that the APRJ round got nerfed, but this is the opposite of a nerf!
3D6 for $200 is pretty terrible, but 2D6 for $20 is actually one of the better deals in the game!

--flatline

[guardiandashi]

Finally picked up Juicer Uprising our of curiosity. Noticed this in the entry of the NG-11S "Sawed Off" description on page 74:

APRJ (Armor-Piercing Ramjet) Rounds: 3D6MD...200 credits each.

The GMG has the following updated stats on page 157: 2D6MD...20 credits each.

I had read in older threads that the APRJ round got nerfed, but this is the opposite of a nerf!
3D6 for $200 is pretty terrible, but 2D6 for $20 is actually one of the better deals in the game!

--flatline

well in some ways its a nerf, (absolute damage per round) but cost efficiency wise its a HUGE upgrade

IE loose ~30-50% damage per shot(depending on how you look at it), but cost went down by a factor of 10

[Slight001]

Finally picked up Juicer Uprising our of curiosity. Noticed this in the entry of the NG-11S "Sawed Off" description on page 74:

APRJ (Armor-Piercing Ramjet) Rounds: 3D6MD...200 credits each.

The GMG has the following updated stats on page 157: 2D6MD...20 credits each.

I had read in older threads that the APRJ round got nerfed, but this is the opposite of a nerf!
3D6 for $200 is pretty terrible, but 2D6 for $20 is actually one of the better deals in the game!

--flatline

You are assuming that every player and GM cares even a little for economic value at all.

[Nightmask]

Finally picked up Juicer Uprising our of curiosity. Noticed this in the entry of the NG-11S "Sawed Off" description on page 74:

APRJ (Armor-Piercing Ramjet) Rounds: 3D6MD...200 credits each.

The GMG has the following updated stats on page 157: 2D6MD...20 credits each.

I had read in older threads that the APRJ round got nerfed, but this is the opposite of a nerf!
3D6 for $200 is pretty terrible, but 2D6 for $20 is actually one of the better deals in the game!

--flatline

You are assuming that every player and GM cares even a little for economic value at all.

Everybody cares at least somewhat about what things cost and whether or not they can afford the things that they want or need for their characters. The tech-favoring players would be keenly interested in seeing prices reduced on a useful weapon.

[Killer Cyborg]

Finally picked up Juicer Uprising our of curiosity. Noticed this in the entry of the NG-11S "Sawed Off" description on page 74:

APRJ (Armor-Piercing Ramjet) Rounds: 3D6MD...200 credits each.

The GMG has the following updated stats on page 157: 2D6MD...20 credits each.

I had read in older threads that the APRJ round got nerfed, but this is the opposite of a nerf!
3D6 for $200 is pretty terrible, but 2D6 for $20 is actually one of the better deals in the game!

--flatline

Huh.
The damage is a nerf… but yeah, dollars for damages, the updates are far superior!

[wyrmraker]

Bear in mind that in Northern Gun 1, the damage and prices are back up to their original value.

[Killer Cyborg]

Bear in mind that in Northern Gun 1, the damage and prices are back up to their original value.

Huh.
Weird.

[flatline]

Finally picked up Juicer Uprising our of curiosity. Noticed this in the entry of the NG-11S "Sawed Off" description on page 74:

APRJ (Armor-Piercing Ramjet) Rounds: 3D6MD...200 credits each.

The GMG has the following updated stats on page 157: 2D6MD...20 credits each.

I had read in older threads that the APRJ round got nerfed, but this is the opposite of a nerf!
3D6 for $200 is pretty terrible, but 2D6 for $20 is actually one of the better deals in the game!

--flatline

You are assuming that every player and GM cares even a little for economic value at all.

Well, if cost isn't a concern, then you're probably using a weapon that does better than 3D6MD.

--flatline

[Shark_Force]

Finally picked up Juicer Uprising our of curiosity. Noticed this in the entry of the NG-11S "Sawed Off" description on page 74:

APRJ (Armor-Piercing Ramjet) Rounds: 3D6MD...200 credits each.

The GMG has the following updated stats on page 157: 2D6MD...20 credits each.

I had read in older threads that the APRJ round got nerfed, but this is the opposite of a nerf!
3D6 for $200 is pretty terrible, but 2D6 for $20 is actually one of the better deals in the game!

--flatline

You are assuming that every player and GM cares even a little for economic value at all.

Well, if cost isn't a concern, then you're probably using a weapon that does better than 3D6MD.

--flatline

this. it went from being a weapon that you pretty much never want (it was both expensive and bad), to being a weapon that is situationally useful (still bad, but at least it's cheap). that's definitely a buff.

[Svartalf]

Bear in mind that in Northern Gun 1, the damage and prices are back up to their original value.

Huh.
Weird.

the vagaries of cut&paste?

[Dog_O_War]

Bear in mind that in Northern Gun 1, the damage and prices are back up to their original value.

Huh.
Weird.

the vagaries of cut&paste?

Likely, but there is also the possibility that this was done as a quick and easy fix to keep it competitive with BigBore weaponry, which does less damage, but has that knock-down effect and is incredibly cheap.

[glitterboy2098]

IMO, run both..
3D6*200cr = high quality rounds, less common, meant for more military use.
2D6*20cr = low quality, but common rounds meant for export.

[guardiandashi]

IMO, run both..
3D6*200cr = high quality rounds, less common, meant for more military use.
2D6*20cr = low quality, but common rounds meant for export.

or even have a char run both...
2d6@20cr for common use relatively speaking IE you bought several boxes of these shells
3d6@200cr for use when you absolutely gotta do as much damage as fast as possible.. (you picked up a few shells mabie a box or so but you use them sparingly.

[flatline]

IMO, run both..
3D6*200cr = high quality rounds, less common, meant for more military use.
2D6*20cr = low quality, but common rounds meant for export.

or even have a char run both...
2d6@20cr for common use relatively speaking IE you bought several boxes of these shells
3d6@200cr for use when you absolutely gotta do as much damage as fast as possible.. (you picked up a few shells mabie a box or so but you use them sparingly.

If someone hasn't already done this, it might be worth starting a thread that lists and rationalizes all the different types of Ramjet rounds.

For instance, it's crazy that a 12 gauge shotgun ramjet round would do more damage than a .50 BMG ramjet round yet that's my interpretation of what's printed in Mercenaries and the GMG.

--flatline

[glitterboy2098]

a 12 guage shotgun is 18.5mm width (compared to 12.7mm), and a good 50% longer than a .50 slug. so no, not all that crazy. the shotgun slug has room for more fuel (thus better speed) and more general mass (meaning more kinetic energy)

[eliakon]

IMO, run both..
3D6*200cr = high quality rounds, less common, meant for more military use.
2D6*20cr = low quality, but common rounds meant for export.

or even have a char run both...
2d6@20cr for common use relatively speaking IE you bought several boxes of these shells
3d6@200cr for use when you absolutely gotta do as much damage as fast as possible.. (you picked up a few shells mabie a box or so but you use them sparingly.

If someone hasn't already done this, it might be worth starting a thread that lists and rationalizes all the different types of Ramjet rounds.

For instance, it's crazy that a 12 gauge shotgun ramjet round would do more damage than a .50 BMG ramjet round yet that's my interpretation of what's printed in Mercenaries and the GMG.

--flatline

Rational: Weapons in Palladium do damage based on random factors. Physics is the least important factor ('cool' being the most important, followed by who makes it, its intended role, and if the damage scale is on the up tick or on the down tick at the moment.)

[Killer Cyborg]

a 12 guage shotgun is 18.5mm width (compared to 12.7mm), and a good 50% longer than a .50 slug. so no, not all that crazy. the shotgun slug has room for more fuel (thus better speed) and more general mass (meaning more kinetic energy)

Also, I don't recall most ramjet rounds being Armor Piercing.

[flatline]

a 12 guage shotgun is 18.5mm width (compared to 12.7mm), and a good 50% longer than a .50 slug. so no, not all that crazy. the shotgun slug has room for more fuel (thus better speed) and more general mass (meaning more kinetic energy)

But if the propellant is in the slug itself, then the .50 slug could be made much larger and still fit in the chamber since you wouldn't be packing as much gunpowder in the shell.

A 12-g shotgun shell is typically less than 3 inches long. The .50 BMG slug + shell is closer to 6.

--flatline

[glitterboy2098]

actually, no it's not all in the slug.

the slug is still propelled down the barrel as normal by the fast burning of the powder. the slug's ramjet ignites as it leaves the barrel. reduce the propellant charge in the casing and you make it tough to ignite the ramjet. (it's like tracers in that regard)

[Svartalf]

a 12 guage shotgun is 18.5mm width (compared to 12.7mm), and a good 50% longer than a .50 slug. so no, not all that crazy. the shotgun slug has room for more fuel (thus better speed) and more general mass (meaning more kinetic energy)

Also, I don't recall most ramjet rounds being Armor Piercing.

lolwhut? that's what they are... low caliber penetrators able to pierce and damage even heavy armour...

[Dog_O_War]

a 12 guage shotgun is 18.5mm width (compared to 12.7mm), and a good 50% longer than a .50 slug. so no, not all that crazy. the shotgun slug has room for more fuel (thus better speed) and more general mass (meaning more kinetic energy)

Also, I don't recall most ramjet rounds being Armor Piercing.

lolwhut? that's what they are... low caliber penetrators able to pierce and damage even heavy armour...

I believe he meant in the "armour-piercing has special rules" vein.

[Killer Cyborg]

a 12 guage shotgun is 18.5mm width (compared to 12.7mm), and a good 50% longer than a .50 slug. so no, not all that crazy. the shotgun slug has room for more fuel (thus better speed) and more general mass (meaning more kinetic energy)

Also, I don't recall most ramjet rounds being Armor Piercing.

lolwhut? that's what they are... low caliber penetrators able to pierce and damage even heavy armour...

I believe he meant in the "armour-piercing has special rules" vein.

Yup.

[flatline]

IMO, run both..
3D6*200cr = high quality rounds, less common, meant for more military use.
2D6*20cr = low quality, but common rounds meant for export.

I like options, so I'm in favor of that approach.

I think I'm going to chart the ammo options and decide if there are any gaps or outliers that should be addressed with house rules.

--flatline

[Shark_Force]

doesn't the GMG also have plasma ones that deal more damage and are pretty cheap too?

[Mack]

Bear in mind that in Northern Gun 1, the damage and prices are back up to their original value.

[Begin Total Speculation]
KS was sitting at his desk, writing NG1 and needed the stats for APRJ rounds. So he reaches over to his bookshelf and grabs the book from whence they came: Juicer Uprisings. And he simply forgets that there was a revision in the RGMG.
[End Total Speculation]

IMO, run both..
3D6*200cr = high quality rounds, less common, meant for more military use.
2D6*20cr = low quality, but common rounds meant for export.

Excellent approach.

[flatline]

doesn't the GMG also have plasma ones that deal more damage and are pretty cheap too?

GMG p112:
explosive shell (fragmentary): $130, 2D6MD to 10-foot diameter or 3D6MD to 20-foot diameter for a double blast
explosive shell (plasma): $170, 3D6MD to 6-foot diameter or 5D6MD to 12-foot diameter for a double blast

GMG p150:
explosive shell (fragmentary): $150, 2D6MD to 10-foot diameter or 3D6MD to 20-foot diameter for a double blast
explosive shell (plasma): $150, 3D6MD to 6-foot diameter or 5D6MD to 12-foot diameter for a double blast

I think it's interesting that the prices differ depending on which page you look at, but the damage is identical between the two entries.

JU p74 matches the GMG p150 description.

Edit: APRJ doing 3D6MD for $200 looks pretty pathetic if I can get the same damage plus an area effect for less in the same weapon description...
--flatline

[flatline]

Here's something interesting:

GMG 164: Equalizer Combat Shotgun
12-gauge buckshot: 4D6SDC...$1 each
12-guage slug: 5D6SDC...$2 each
16mm Armor-Piercing Explosive (APE): 5D6MD...$100 each
16mm Fragmentary Grenade: 2D4MD...10-foot blast radius...$500 each

The APE round is particularly interesting. $100 to do 5D6MD is extremely competitive with energy-rifles if you pay book prices to recharge e-clips.

--flatline

[wyrmraker]

From another angle, let's look at the combat role of the shotgun versus an energy weapon from when the APRJ was released:
NG-57 Ion Blaster (pistol)
Damage is 3D6, range 500 feet, 10 shots per e-clip. Roughly comparable to the APRJ round in damage and range.
Cost is 8000 cr, e-clip 5000 cr, totals in at 13,000 credits.

USAS-12 Combat Shotgun
Loaded with APRJ rounds, range and damage are the same, hold 10 rounds (stick magazine) or 20 (drum)
Cost is an estimated 2000 Credits (I am inflating from the Police Model 3000), 10 round magazine 2000 Credits, totlas in at 4000 credits.
Toss in the fact that a 12 gauge round can be reloaded with nearly anything from shot to slugs to a coiled wire cutting bolo to flechettes to CS Tear Gas delivery...

APRJ suddenly looks a lot cheaperand more cost effective. I actually use this a lot when assaulting a party with low-end bandits, because of the economics of the situation.

[flatline]

From another angle, let's look at the combat role of the shotgun versus an energy weapon from when the APRJ was released:
NG-57 Ion Blaster (pistol)
Damage is 3D6, range 500 feet, 10 shots per e-clip. Roughly comparable to the APRJ round in damage and range.
Cost is 8000 cr, e-clip 5000 cr, totals in at 13,000 credits.

USAS-12 Combat Shotgun
Loaded with APRJ rounds, range and damage are the same, hold 10 rounds (stick magazine) or 20 (drum)
Cost is an estimated 2000 Credits (I am inflating from the Police Model 3000), 10 round magazine 2000 Credits, totlas in at 4000 credits.
Toss in the fact that a 12 gauge round can be reloaded with nearly anything from shot to slugs to a coiled wire cutting bolo to flechettes to CS Tear Gas delivery...

APRJ suddenly looks a lot cheaper and more cost effective. I actually use this a lot when assaulting a party with low-end bandits, because of the economics of the situation.

Hmm...maybe I should start another thread about how energy pistols are poorly handled in Rifts (mostly because they are assumed to use the same e-clips as energy rifles) BUT it is true that 3D6 for $200 is competitive with pistols as written.

--flatline

[rifter72]

APRJ suddenly looks a lot cheaper and more cost effective. I actually use this a lot when assaulting a party with low-end bandits, because of the economics of the situation.

Looks like I have some weapon ideas for my budget bad-guys.

[Killer Cyborg]

APRJ suddenly looks a lot cheaper and more cost effective. I actually use this a lot when assaulting a party with low-end bandits, because of the economics of the situation.

Looks like I have some weapon ideas for my budget bad-guys.

Since I have just updated some of the stuff in my Bullhunter Arms thread based on this conversation, I'll also recommend that you check it out.
LOTS of ideas for bandits on a budget, including some stuff that takes advantage of the APRJ rounds.

BH-DG1 Disposable Mega-Shotgun
Keeping up with our line of minimalist weapons for buyers on a budget, this plastic shotgun comes pre-loaded with a single APRJ round. Due to its bullpup design, the weapon has a total length of only 25 inches. In order to keep the costs down to an absolute minimum, this weapon has no breach or other means to reload it; it would not survive more than 1d4 firings in any case, due to the inexpensive design and materials. Optional bayonet mount.
Damage: 3d6 MD
Rate of Fire: Single shot only.
Weight:
Range: 500'
Payload: 1 (cannot be reloaded)
Damage Capacity: 25 SDC
Price: CR 230
(CR 235 with the optional bayonet mount)

BH-DG2 Disposable Mega-Shotgun
A double-barreled version of the DG1.
Damage: 3d6 MD for a single-shot, or 6d6 MD for a dual-blast.
Rate of Fire: Single or Dual Blast only.
Range: 500'
Payload: 2 (cannot be reloaded)
Damage Capacity: 45 SDC
Price: CR 480

BH-DG3 Disposable Mega-Shotgun
A triple-barreled version of the DG1. The weapon has three triggers, which can be squeezed one at a time, or all at once!
Damage: 3d6 MD for a single-shot, 6d6 MD for a dual-blast, or 9d6 for a triple-blast.
Rate of Fire: Single, Dual, or Triple Blast only.
Range: 500'
Payload: 3 (cannot be reloaded)
Damage Capacity: 70 SDC
Price: CR 700

BH-DG4 Disposable Mega-Shotgun
A four-barreled version of the DG1. This weapon only has two triggers, each of which fires one barrel if pulled half-way back, or fires two barrels if pulled all the way back.
Damage: 3d6 MD for a single-shot, 6d6 MD for a dual-blast, 9d6 MD for a triple-blast (a tricky maneuver, due to the trigger setup), or 12d6 for a quadruple-blast (Shooter takes 1d6 SDC recoil damage, and must successfully Roll With Impact or make a Balance check if not braced, unless their PS is 18 or higher).
Rate of Fire: Single, Dual, Triple, or Quadruple Blast only.
Range: 500'
Payload: 4 (cannot be reloaded)
Damage Capacity: 90 SDC
Price: CR 900

BH-DG5 Disposable Mega-Shotgun
A five-barreled version of the DG1. There is only one trigger, with five stages, each stage triggering one shot.
Damage: 3d6 MD for a single-shot, 6d6 MD for a dual-blast, 9d6 MD for a triple-blast (a tricky maneuver, due to the trigger setup), 12d6 MD for a quadruple-blast (Shooter takes 1d6 SDC recoil damage, and must successfully Roll With Impact vs. 14, or make a Balance check, if not braced, unless their PS is 18 or higher), or 15d6 MD for a quintuple-blast (Shooter takes 2d6 SDC recoil damage, and must successfully Roll With Impact vs. 18, or make a Balance check, if not braced, unless their PS is 20 or higher).
Rate of Fire: Single, Dual, Triple, Quadruple, or Quintuple Blast only.
Range: 500'
Payload: 5 (cannot be reloaded)
Damage Capacity: 125 SDC
Price: CR 1100

[rifter72]

Since I have just updated some of the stuff in my Bullhunter Arms thread based on this conversation, I'll also recommend that you check it out.
LOTS of ideas for bandits on a budget, including some stuff that takes advantage of the APRJ rounds.

Thank you for the link and info... I will be using some of this, nice oh-$h!t moment weapon.

[Killer Cyborg]

Stumbled onto The Nordenfelt Gun, and it actually provides a fairly unique bonus when combined with Palladium's rules, because it fires rapid-fire volleys, not standard bursts.
A 10-barrel Nordenfelt could therefore inflict about 3d6x10 MD per attack if loaded with APRJ rounds, at a cost of CR 2,000 per attack.
Not bad, if you can afford the ammo...

[flatline]

Stumbled onto The Nordenfelt Gun, and it actually provides a fairly unique bonus when combined with Palladium's rules, because it fires rapid-fire volleys, not standard bursts.
A 10-barrel Nordenfelt could therefore inflict about 3d6x10 MD per attack if loaded with APRJ rounds, at a cost of CR 2,000 per attack.
Not bad, if you can afford the ammo...

Google for "colt defender mark 1" or "8 barreled shotgun" for some interesting results. The second search will also return a 7 barreled black powder shotgun that looks pretty neat.

Edit: the google search "triple barrel shotgun" also returns some neat results.

--flatline

[wyrmraker]

This is why I prefer the USAS-12 combat shotgun. 400 rounds per minute, 20 round drum. Attach some recoil management equipment, and you've got a nasty firearm.

For the mounted gun (or cyborg-carry weapon), there is the gatling 12 gauge shotgun. If you run with a true autocannon, cyclic rate of fire is 1000 rounds per minute (almost a minimum rate of fire, even with barrel spin-up), and it can be loaded with any 12 gauge round, from APRJ to bird shot. Heck, there are even CN Tear Gas shells for that caliber. I have posted this particular weapon before, but instead fitted with the chamber action of the Big Bore Universal Rifle.

[Killer Cyborg]

Stumbled onto The Nordenfelt Gun, and it actually provides a fairly unique bonus when combined with Palladium's rules, because it fires rapid-fire volleys, not standard bursts.
A 10-barrel Nordenfelt could therefore inflict about 3d6x10 MD per attack if loaded with APRJ rounds, at a cost of CR 2,000 per attack.
Not bad, if you can afford the ammo...

Google for "colt defender mark 1" or "8 barreled shotgun" for some interesting results. The second search will also return a 7 barreled black powder shotgun that looks pretty neat.

Edit: the google search "triple barrel shotgun" also returns some neat results.

--flatline

Neat!

I forget if I've seen that one before or not, but the final variant where you could select which barrel fired, and you had a tear-gas grenade in the middle of the barrels, sounds pretty sweet.
In Rifts, you could replace the tear gas with a regular grenade...

[Alrik Vas]

so...clearly you need a SPAS-12 to burst fire plasma ramjet rounds.

[Shark_Force]

note: technically we're only assuming these work normally in a regular shotgun. as written, we know that the NG weapon which fires APRJ rounds can also fire normal shotgun rounds, but we don't actually know for certain that these work in normal shotguns. the NG weapon in question *does* cost 11,000 credits iirc (while a normal shotgun costs a few hundred), so it isn't an unreasonable assumption to speculate that these rounds have some special firing mechanism that prevents you from spending 10k credits on the NG weapon, which is otherwise basically a perfectly ordinary sawn-off shotgun made of MDC materials as far as i can tell.

so it may or may not be possible to fire these things from a regular shotgun. if you can, the pricepoint of the NG pistol rather boggles the mind.

[Alrik Vas]

Meh, 11k for a draw and unload death at extreme close range? worth it for the funny, plus a MD shotgun blast would knock down most human sized opponents in body armor.

which is why I hate big bore weapons...but that's a different thread.

[Killer Cyborg]

note: technically we're only assuming these work normally in a regular shotgun. as written, we know that the NG weapon which fires APRJ rounds can also fire normal shotgun rounds, but we don't actually know for certain that these work in normal shotguns. the NG weapon in question *does* cost 11,000 credits iirc (while a normal shotgun costs a few hundred), so it isn't an unreasonable assumption to speculate that these rounds have some special firing mechanism that prevents you from spending 10k credits on the NG weapon, which is otherwise basically a perfectly ordinary sawn-off shotgun made of MDC materials as far as i can tell.

so it may or may not be possible to fire these things from a regular shotgun. if you can, the pricepoint of the NG pistol rather boggles the mind.

I assume it's because it's an MDC shotgun, and that being MDC might be a requirement for using the Rounds.

[Alrik Vas]

then use the QQ-11 or whatever it is out of FQ. pretty sure that one can burst and it has good payload.

[wyrmraker]

I have mentioned it before in other threads that any character with the Weapons Engineer skill and the equipment can manufacture just about any conventional non-energy weapon. Therefore crafting a hand-held automatic shotgun for the APRJ rounds (or anything else in 12 gauge) would take anywhere from a few days (double barrel) to a few weeks (mounted gatling shotgun). And given the existence of the BigBore "Universal"
Variable Assault Rifle, making a shotgun capable of holding different ammunition types shouldn't be terribly complicated with a little reverse engineering.

Therefore just about any Operator, Psi-Tek, or Techno-Wizard could manufacture a mega-damage shotgun of nearly any type. They would just need the tools required to get the job done (mill, lathe, etc).

[Nightmask]

I have mentioned it before in other threads that any character with the Weapons Engineer skill and the equipment can manufacture just about any conventional non-energy weapon. Therefore crafting a hand-held automatic shotgun for the APRJ rounds (or anything else in 12 gauge) would take anywhere from a few days (double barrel) to a few weeks (mounted gatling shotgun). And given the existence of the BigBore "Universal"
Variable Assault Rifle, making a shotgun capable of holding different ammunition types shouldn't be terribly complicated with a little reverse engineering.

Therefore just about any Operator, Psi-Tek, or Techno-Wizard could manufacture a mega-damage shotgun of nearly any type. They would just need the tools required to get the job done (mill, lathe, etc).

Why do you remove the Weapons Engineer's ability to build energy weapons? They should be able to build pretty much any weapon energy or non.

[Svartalf]

For energy weapons, I demand they also have electrical engineering

[Shark_Force]

I assume it's because it's an MDC shotgun, and that being MDC might be a requirement for using the Rounds.

possible, but MDC material can be very inexpensive... consider, for example, the plastic man armour. fully environmental, and dirt cheap. it feels like NG would have to have a ridiculously huge markup on their sawn-off if all it takes is making a standard shotgun out of MD materials. the core book features laser pistols that cost 6500 credits (and include complex electrical components) and full suits of environmental armour (ie harder to make than non-environmental armour and including a bunch of added gadgets, tools, and sensors) for 18,000 credits.

if there's that big of a markup, i'd expect the secondary market mentioned below to take all the business by providing superior options at lower prices unless a more complex firing system makes the gun cost more to make, rather than just the materials (which appear to be fairly inexpensive).

I have mentioned it before in other threads that any character with the Weapons Engineer skill and the equipment can manufacture just about any conventional non-energy weapon. Therefore crafting a hand-held automatic shotgun for the APRJ rounds (or anything else in 12 gauge) would take anywhere from a few days (double barrel) to a few weeks (mounted gatling shotgun). And given the existence of the BigBore "Universal"
Variable Assault Rifle, making a shotgun capable of holding different ammunition types shouldn't be terribly complicated with a little reverse engineering.

Therefore just about any Operator, Psi-Tek, or Techno-Wizard could manufacture a mega-damage shotgun of nearly any type. They would just need the tools required to get the job done (mill, lathe, etc).

i'll readily agree that if the firing mechanism is unusual, any appropriately skilled individual who is familiar with the NG gun (or possibly even just the rounds) could build or even convert a shotgun to be able to fire them. i'm just saying that it might not work by default, though in the absence of any clear guidance it also might work just fine.

[Nightmask]

For energy weapons, I demand they also have electrical engineering

I haven't checked of late but I think you can't have Weapons Engineering skill without having also Electrical Engineering and Mechanical engineering.

[Killer Cyborg]

I assume it's because it's an MDC shotgun, and that being MDC might be a requirement for using the Rounds.

possible, but MDC material can be very inexpensive... consider, for example, the plastic man armour. fully environmental, and dirt cheap. it feels like NG would have to have a ridiculously huge markup on their sawn-off if all it takes is making a standard shotgun out of MD materials. the core book features laser pistols that cost 6500 credits (and include complex electrical components) and full suits of environmental armour (ie harder to make than non-environmental armour and including a bunch of added gadgets, tools, and sensors) for 18,000 credits.

if there's that big of a markup, i'd expect the secondary market mentioned below to take all the business by providing superior options at lower prices unless a more complex firing system makes the gun cost more to make, rather than just the materials (which appear to be fairly inexpensive).

Ramjet rounds can as a rule be fired out of normal guns with normal firing mechanisms, though, so I don't see any real reason to assume that the APRJ rounds would be significantly different.
A high price could be something as simple as supply and demand, or some other reason.

[Killer Cyborg]

I have mentioned it before in other threads that any character with the Weapons Engineer skill and the equipment can manufacture just about any conventional non-energy weapon. Therefore crafting a hand-held automatic shotgun for the APRJ rounds (or anything else in 12 gauge) would take anywhere from a few days (double barrel) to a few weeks (mounted gatling shotgun). And given the existence of the BigBore "Universal"
Variable Assault Rifle, making a shotgun capable of holding different ammunition types shouldn't be terribly complicated with a little reverse engineering.

Therefore just about any Operator, Psi-Tek, or Techno-Wizard could manufacture a mega-damage shotgun of nearly any type. They would just need the tools required to get the job done (mill, lathe, etc).

Why do you remove the Weapons Engineer's ability to build energy weapons? They should be able to build pretty much any weapon energy or non.

With the proper time, tools, and materials, of course.

[Shark_Force]

I assume it's because it's an MDC shotgun, and that being MDC might be a requirement for using the Rounds.

possible, but MDC material can be very inexpensive... consider, for example, the plastic man armour. fully environmental, and dirt cheap. it feels like NG would have to have a ridiculously huge markup on their sawn-off if all it takes is making a standard shotgun out of MD materials. the core book features laser pistols that cost 6500 credits (and include complex electrical components) and full suits of environmental armour (ie harder to make than non-environmental armour and including a bunch of added gadgets, tools, and sensors) for 18,000 credits.

if there's that big of a markup, i'd expect the secondary market mentioned below to take all the business by providing superior options at lower prices unless a more complex firing system makes the gun cost more to make, rather than just the materials (which appear to be fairly inexpensive).

Ramjet rounds can as a rule be fired out of normal guns with normal firing mechanisms, though, so I don't see any real reason to assume that the APRJ rounds would be significantly different.
A high price could be something as simple as supply and demand, or some other reason.

the problem there is that normal shotguns are very widely available (tbh probably more so than the NG pistol) and not expensive.

if i have a choice between buying a weapon for maybe as much as 1,000 credits that has a higher ammo capacity, better range (with regular shells at least if not the APRJ ones), and possibly better ROF (we have automatic shotguns today, no reason to assume they're completely unavailable in rifts), or buying a weapon for 11,000 credits with terrible ammo capacity, poor range, and nothing special about the ROF.

supply of regular shotguns is already high. if there's absolutely nothing special about the firing mechanism, there is no compelling reason to use the NG shotgun pistol thing, and NG would be insane to have wasted the money on designing and producing what is essentially an overpriced poorly-made weapon, when they could instead have sold modern (that is, our modern, not theirs) fully automatic combat shotguns.

it simply doesn't make any sense unless there is some sort of expensive mechanism inside. i can't imagine what the mechanism might be (obviously normal ramjet rounds have no such requirement, as you've noted), but the only way i can make sense of an 11,000 credit price tag and the weapon having ever been made in the first place is that there is one. NG making a bad decision would explain the existence of the gun, but not the reason they think they can sell a poorly-designed piece of junk for 10 times (or more) what their competition is selling a widely available superior product for.

[flatline]

it simply doesn't make any sense unless there is some sort of expensive mechanism inside. i can't imagine what the mechanism might be (obviously normal ramjet rounds have no such requirement, as you've noted), but the only way i can make sense of an 11,000 credit price tag and the weapon having ever been made in the first place is that there is one. NG making a bad decision would explain the existence of the gun, but not the reason they think they can sell a poorly-designed piece of junk for 10 times (or more) what their competition is selling a widely available superior product for.

I think the most likely answer is that the Author didn't put as much thought into this as we are and simply picked a price that seemed appropriate compared to other published weapons.

--flatline