APRJ shotgun rounds: then and now

[Killer Cyborg]

I assume it's because it's an MDC shotgun, and that being MDC might be a requirement for using the Rounds.

possible, but MDC material can be very inexpensive... consider, for example, the plastic man armour. fully environmental, and dirt cheap. it feels like NG would have to have a ridiculously huge markup on their sawn-off if all it takes is making a standard shotgun out of MD materials. the core book features laser pistols that cost 6500 credits (and include complex electrical components) and full suits of environmental armour (ie harder to make than non-environmental armour and including a bunch of added gadgets, tools, and sensors) for 18,000 credits.

if there's that big of a markup, i'd expect the secondary market mentioned below to take all the business by providing superior options at lower prices unless a more complex firing system makes the gun cost more to make, rather than just the materials (which appear to be fairly inexpensive).

Ramjet rounds can as a rule be fired out of normal guns with normal firing mechanisms, though, so I don't see any real reason to assume that the APRJ rounds would be significantly different.
A high price could be something as simple as supply and demand, or some other reason.

the problem there is that normal shotguns are very widely available (tbh probably more so than the NG pistol) and not expensive.

if i have a choice between buying a weapon for maybe as much as 1,000 credits that has a higher ammo capacity, better range (with regular shells at least if not the APRJ ones), and possibly better ROF (we have automatic shotguns today, no reason to assume they're completely unavailable in rifts), or buying a weapon for 11,000 credits with terrible ammo capacity, poor range, and nothing special about the ROF.

supply of regular shotguns is already high. if there's absolutely nothing special about the firing mechanism, there is no compelling reason to use the NG shotgun pistol thing, and NG would be insane to have wasted the money on designing and producing what is essentially an overpriced poorly-made weapon, when they could instead have sold modern (that is, our modern, not theirs) fully automatic combat shotguns.

it simply doesn't make any sense unless there is some sort of expensive mechanism inside. i can't imagine what the mechanism might be (obviously normal ramjet rounds have no such requirement, as you've noted), but the only way i can make sense of an 11,000 credit price tag and the weapon having ever been made in the first place is that there is one. NG making a bad decision would explain the existence of the gun, but not the reason they think they can sell a poorly-designed piece of junk for 10 times (or more) what their competition is selling a widely available superior product for.

Shotguns are common. MDC shotguns don't seem to be.

And, believe it or not, there are plenty of crappy, overpriced guns in the real world that still get made.

[Shark_Force]

by your own logic that normal ramjet rounds don't require special firing mechanisms, i would point out that they also don't require special MDC guns to fire them. the only reason it might need an MDC shotgun is if the rounds are doing something different from every other ramjet round.

and i have no problem with the gun having been initially overpriced. i have a problem that it didn't come down in price once people noticed it was a double barrel sawed-off shotgun with a ridiculously huge price tag.

(and on a side note, MDC shotguns aren't terribly uncommon either. perhaps less common than laser rifles, but there are quite a few out there).

[Killer Cyborg]

by your own logic that normal ramjet rounds don't require special firing mechanisms, i would point out that they also don't require special MDC guns to fire them. the only reason it might need an MDC shotgun is if the rounds are doing something different from every other ramjet round.

They might just have that much more kick or something, but yes.
It might not even be a requirement for the rounds, just a feature of that particular weapon.

and i have no problem with the gun having been initially overpriced. i have a problem that it didn't come down in price once people noticed it was a double barrel sawed-off shotgun with a ridiculously huge price tag.

(and on a side note, MDC shotguns aren't terribly uncommon either. perhaps less common than laser rifles, but there are quite a few out there).

I only remember this one and the Drummer in FQ, and IIRC the Drummer was pretty pricy.

[Svartalf]

For energy weapons, I demand they also have electrical engineering

I haven't checked of late but I think you can't have Weapons Engineering skill without having also Electrical Engineering and Mechanical engineering.

OOps, forgot that this is the case in Rifts, mixed up my games...

[wyrmraker]

In all honesty, we know next to nothing about the APRJ rounds, except that the NG-11S can fire those as well as conventional shotgun rounds. For all we know, the barrel might be required to be MD material to contain the shell, or the shell itself may be a 5 inch long magnum shell. In theory, the round itself could need special requirements. Doubtful, but still...

Therefore it would be in keeping with standard firearms that a double-barrelled shotgun would be in order for this line of 12 gauge shells. However, that isn't to say that an automatic shotgun couldn't be manufactured for it. Materials would be relatively easy to get; armor plate of sufficient thickness would suffice to machine a barrel out of (Rifts is notoriously light on details such as pressure expansion in the breech, muzzle velocity, etc), and anyone with Weapons Engineer could manufacture the action and magazines with the proper equipment.

In all honesty, I am a bit surprised that Northern Gun Book 1 doesn't have more weapons chambered for that series of shotgun shell.

[Alrik Vas]

oh, as to the absurd pricing...think about who their target customer is...a bunch of people who aren't investing their money because they're on a life clock.

businesses gouge all the time and salesmen offer the brand over just about everything else.

[Shark_Force]

by your own logic that normal ramjet rounds don't require special firing mechanisms, i would point out that they also don't require special MDC guns to fire them. the only reason it might need an MDC shotgun is if the rounds are doing something different from every other ramjet round.

They might just have that much more kick or something, but yes.
It might not even be a requirement for the rounds, just a feature of that particular weapon.

and i have no problem with the gun having been initially overpriced. i have a problem that it didn't come down in price once people noticed it was a double barrel sawed-off shotgun with a ridiculously huge price tag.

(and on a side note, MDC shotguns aren't terribly uncommon either. perhaps less common than laser rifles, but there are quite a few out there).

I only remember this one and the Drummer in FQ, and IIRC the Drummer was pretty pricy.

that's probably you trying to unremember the big bore series of weapons (good news: the brain bleach appears to be working. bad news: you're going to be confronted with their existence over and over, and each time will be just as awful as the first )

there's also a shotgun in south america 1 or 2... can't remember for sure, but i think it's achilles republic which would make it SA 2. and i could've swore i remembered at least one more somewhere (possibly FQ has a couple of them?), though i'd have to go digging through my GMG to find it. not exactly a huge amount, but then again there aren't exactly a ton of particle beam weapons listed either and yet they aren't priced ridiculously to reflect rarity.

(also, from what i recall the drummer is expensive mostly because it's exclusive to the FQ army, very illegal in the sense that they will hunt you down if you have one, and not particularly great unless you happen to be trying to combine it with APRJ shells. it also has the advantage of actually being a fairly advanced automatic shotgun with a ridiculously huge ammo capacity iirc, while the NG one is just an over/under sawed-off double barrel shotgun made of MDC materials, which are not in and of themselves terribly expensive from what we can tell).

and yes, their market is not common sensible people (which is odd, because the best thing about the gun is that ammo is dirt cheap)... but the fact that you're not expecting to die of old age doesn't mean you should be eager to spend your money on a gun that is badly made. they're not *trying* to get killed, or if they are, they certainly aren't trying to spend a lot of money on substandard equipment to do so (if anything, that money is probably bookmarked for a variety of vices).

[wyrmraker]

South America 2 page 164, the Equalizer Combat Shotgun. It fire 16mm explosive catridges, as well as 12 gauge shells, flares, smoke and tear gas grenades. Range os 1000 feet for 16mm explosive rounds, 300 feet for everything else. The APE, or Armor-Piercing Explosive rounds do 5D6 MD, no radius, cost 100 credits per round. The Equalizer runs 12,000 credits, and it's single fire with a 10 round box magazine or 20 round drum.

[flatline]

South America 2 page 164, the Equalizer Combat Shotgun. It fire 16mm explosive catridges, as well as 12 gauge shells, flares, smoke and tear gas grenades. Range os 1000 feet for 16mm explosive rounds, 300 feet for everything else. The APE, or Armor-Piercing Explosive rounds do 5D6 MD, no radius, cost 100 credits per round. The Equalizer runs 12,000 credits, and it's single fire with a 10 round box magazine or 20 round drum.

It's an excellent weapon, but I've never actually seen one used in play. Simply never came up.

I would love to see what the 3 Galaxy analog of the 12-guage shotgun would be. Presumably the gun itself wouldn't be all that different, but the variety of ammo could be staggering.

--flatline

[wyrmraker]

South America 2 page 164, the Equalizer Combat Shotgun. It fire 16mm explosive catridges, as well as 12 gauge shells, flares, smoke and tear gas grenades. Range os 1000 feet for 16mm explosive rounds, 300 feet for everything else. The APE, or Armor-Piercing Explosive rounds do 5D6 MD, no radius, cost 100 credits per round. The Equalizer runs 12,000 credits, and it's single fire with a 10 round box magazine or 20 round drum.

It's an excellent weapon, but I've never actually seen one used in play. Simply never came up.

I would love to see what the 3 Galaxy analog of the 12-guage shotgun would be. Presumably the gun itself wouldn't be all that different, but the variety of ammo could be staggering.

--flatline

That would be absolutely fascinating to see if Palladium could do that right. I could assemble one that would fit in with Naruni Enterprises collecting tech from a hundred worlds and combining them into shotgun shells. The downside is that it would likely be powerful enough to be exclusive to Naruni agents, as well as have people screaming that it's completely over-powered.

[Alrik Vas]

Heh, k-hex shotgun rounds? probably only as much as a hand grenade. not complaining, butit seems par for the course.

[wyrmraker]

Heh, k-hex shotgun rounds? probably only as much as a hand grenade. not complaining, butit seems par for the course.

It can get a lot more expansive than that. Pirhana rounds, K-Hex micro-missiles, all manner of gasses, plasma cartridges...

Remember that a conventional shotgun today has a lot more loaded for it that shot and slug. Flechettes (20 finned arrows, at 100 feet about half are going in sideways), Strung Buck (two pieces of 00 Buck connected by 3 feet of wire; to 50 feet it acts like a slug, after that the buckshot spreeads and it will easily cut off a 4"x4" oak post out to about 150'), Dragonsbreath (contrary to what seems to be popular belief, does NOT do any damage to the barrel), CN Tear Gas (the projectile looks like a little bomb, it's fired into a wall to spray the OTHER side of the wall with tear gas powder to a diameter of about 15'). All of this is available today, much of it over the counter (yes, Strung Buck and Flechette rounds can be purchased at a store local to me here in Iowa).

[Alrik Vas]

Oh, sure, I was just rolling my eyes at palladium on that one.

Super tech micro explosive! Does as much as a hand grenade, isn't much smaller.

Hell, they have grenade rounds for shotguns today. You can shoot fin stabilizing grenades out of an AA-12, anyway.

[wyrmraker]

The AA-12 grenades are kind of specialized for that weapon, even though the AA-12 can also fire shotgun rounds.

But as I said, Palladium doing proper justice to shotgun rounds would be nigh miraculous. And my way would likely get me shouted at as being OP, and that's mostly because I would insist on doing it correctly.

[flatline]

The AA-12 grenades are kind of specialized for that weapon, even though the AA-12 can also fire shotgun rounds.

But as I said, Palladium doing proper justice to shotgun rounds would be nigh miraculous. And my way would likely get me shouted at as being OP, and that's mostly because I would insist on doing it correctly.

Do it anyways. I'd love to see your ideas!

--flatline

[wyrmraker]

Okay, I worked out some of the possibilities based on real-world exotic shotgun rounds. I had to convert quite a bit of material to put this together in a context that would function within the Palladium rules set. It makes my Gunsmithing license cry a little.
Here we go:

12 Gauge Shotgun came in several flavors (in real life). Single barrel, double barrel, pump action tubular, magazine-fed semi to fully automatic, and bolt action. I will break these down roughly by type, the 'conversions' will be in the descriptions of the rounds themselves.

Single/double barrel: These are in configurations ranging from pistols to long guns, and can load any round with a diameter of 0.729 in, or 18.5 mm. Length of the round is largely immaterial.

Remember that the shotgun is, by and large, a smoothbore cannon. If you can fit it into a 12 gauge shell, you can fire it from the cannon.

Pump Action Tubular: SPAS-12 is a commonly held example of such a piece, and is unusual in that it can switch between pump action and gas round cycling. Usually holds between 5 and 8 rounds, depending on the length of the tube. These are always semi-automatic.

Magazine-fed: These are built much like rifles with oversized breech actions, usually with magazines ranging from 5 to 20 rounds. These can be fully automatic (USAS-12) or semi-automatic.

Bolt Action: Fairly uncommon, these are usually Rifled Slug Guns, designed for heavy, intermediate-range sniping. Unlike most shotguns, these are not smoothbore, but the barrels do require specialized ammunition, such as Sabot and Ramjet rounds.

There are other kinds of shotguns (In Rifts, the Q4-44 "Drummer" Double-Barreled Shotgun is an example of a rather extreme variant, being both double-barreled and magazine fed), but these are the most common types found today.

Ammunition:
This will cover high-tech conversions (as I see them) in a modern take on the most popular shotshell round on Earth. The rounds that exist today will be detailed and updated to Rifts-era standards, and Rifts equipment will be modified to fit a 12 gauge as if Naruni Enterprises had begun marketing them. I won't be getting too far into detail (conversions and reprinting material is frowned upon in the Forums), but the pertinent basics will be listed. Also, I will be doing a bit of generalizing, as the fine details of different shot diameters don't translate well into Palladium.

2 3/4 inch shells (standard) will perform as listed. 3 inch magnum shells will see range performance increased by 25%, at a cost of +50% per round in credits.

Birdshot: Fine pellets fired to maximize spread, and will inflict 2d6 damage to a 15 foot radius at a maximum effective range of 120 feet. This cannot be used to inflict mega-damage, but silver birdshot in an automatic shotgun will mess up a lot of vampires.

Buckshot: 00 Buck is fired to inflict the most damage at a rough range of 65 feet (all 9 pellets will hit the primary mass of a human sized target) for listed damage.
Explosive Pellet: Using buckshot made of explosive materials, the range is unchanged, and the damage is mega-damage.

Slug: Usually a one ounce slug of soft metal, this will do the listed damage for slugs out to 200 feet.
Explosive Slug: Basically a 18.5mm grenade, this will do the listed range, at 5d6 MD.

Plasma Cartridge: Not a long step, these are Naruni Plasma Cartridges loaded into a shotgun made of MD materials. Use the stats for the NE-4 Plasma Cartridge Pistol (Phase World, p.117).

Piranha Rounds: A design stolen from the T'Zee, this fires a modified version of the Piranha Rounds. Use the damage and range stats for the Piranha Gun (Phase World Sourcebook, p.63)

Armor Dissolver: Stolen from a military group in Japan, NE have reverse engineered this weapon and loaded it into a more portable form. AT-AAD Anti-Armor Dissolver (Japan, p.120), range 300 feet, area of effect of 5 feet. Lasts for 10 minutes.

Bean Bag: Designed as less-lethal munitions, these fire a bag or birdshot that will knock down a man-sized target, while doing a mere 2d6 damage.

Dragon's Breath: Originally filled with magnesium pellets, this round turns the shotgun into a 1/2 second flamethrower. Not to be used in automatic shotguns; the breech will melt and explode. Does 3d6 damage to everything within a 60 foot range, can be effectively swept across up to 30 feet. Unless the target is wearing something flammable, the fire damage will not continue.
Plasma Dragon's Breath: Instead of magnesium, these rounds are filled with a variant of the Plasma Cartridge rounds, enabling a mega-damage shotgun to inflict 3d6 MD at the same range and sweep. Fire damage will continue for two melee rounds or until extinguished.

Taser Round: This will fire a slug that is actually a high-intensity capacitor. Range is 250 feet, use the effects of the HW-19 Stun Pistol.

Flechette Rounds: The 12 gauge holds 20 finned darts, and at 100 feet all of the darts have a spread roughly 2 feet across. At that range, about half the darts hit the target sideways. These will do no damage to armored targets. Against soft targets, the flechettes will hit all of the major organs on a man-sized target. Damage is 6d6, half directly to hit points. There is no MD variant.

Strung Buck: Two piece of 00 buck connected by 3 feet of cable. At up to 50 feet, the damage is as per a slug. From 50 feet to 150 feet, the buckshot spreads, creating a bola of dismemberment. The modern version will cleanly cut off a 4"x4" post at 75 feet. Damage is 5d6. I highly recommend developing rules for limb removal.
Monofilament: Instead of a cable, a monofilament wire is used. Same stats, damage is considered MD.

FlashBang: Essentially a Flashbang grenade (use the usual rules) with a range of 200 feet.

Armor-Piercing Incendiary: The original version is designed to penetrate medium armor (light recon vehicles), and then set fire to the interior at 3000 degrees Faranheit. Does 6d6 damage, PV 10. Range of 300 feet.
High Powered Variant: The new version is a sabot round designed for the Rifled Slug Gun. This overpowered round will do 1d6x10 MD, and then the incendiary (which will burn underwater or in a vacuum) will do 4d6 MD for three melee rounds.

Shredder Round: Designed to be used in close quarters (specifically in starship boarding actions), these shells are loaded with razored #12 shot, designed to be used at under 50 feet. These rounds will do 6d6 damage to unarmored targets. They will do no damage to hard targets or most equipment.

Heavy Tracer: A .50BMG Tracer round that has two Sabot sleeves so it comes straight out the end of the barrel. It lights just as soon as it exits the barrel and burns a good, 3-4 seconds. This round has a 400 meter tracer burnout, but you have to aim 30 feet above the target at that range. Many customers use this round for a remote starter for bonfires at 100 yards. This round cannot be used in autoloader or pump action shotguns. Range is 1200 feet, damage 1d6x10.

Armor-Piercing Ramjet: Northern Gun developed this round, which was easily reverse engineered by Naruni Enterprises. Used in a smoothbore, use the stats listed in Northen Gun 1. When fired from a Rifled Slug Gun, triple the range.

Sabot Slugs: These can be used in either a smoothbore or rifled barrel, and are considered Armor Piercing. Range for Smoothbore is 250 feet, Rifled Barrel is 900 feet.

Specialized Rounds:
Stake Shells: These will only fit into a single or double barreled shotgun, these are shotshells loaded with a single 8 inch long wooden stake. Designed specifically for pistol-style shotguns, they are meant to be used on a vampire after knocking them down.

[Killer Cyborg]

Similar to some stuff that I came up with a while back:

viewtopic.php?p=2615462#p2615462

12 Gauge Ammunition:
Pepper Blast: (Need to finish this)
Tear Gas: (need to finish this)
Rubber Slug: 1d4 SDC, 2d4 SDC for a double-blast. CR 10 for a box of 50.
Rock Salt: 1d6 SDC to a 10' radius, 2d6 SDC to a 15' radius for a double-blast. CR 10 for a box of 50.
Taser Slug: 1d4 SDC, plus save vs. non-lethal poison or be incapacitated for 30 seconds. 65' range.
Buckshot*: 2d6 SDC to a 10' radius, 4d6 to a 15' radius for a double-blast. CR 50 for a box of 50.
Flare: 2d6 SDC per melee round, 4d6 SDC per melee round for a double-blast. Burns for 1d4 rounds. 500' range. CR 10 per flare.
Light Shot*: 3d6 SDC, 6d6 SDC for a double-blast. CR 50 for a box of 50.
Flechettes*: 3d6 SDC, 6d6 SDC for a double-blast. Punches through the top 5 points of an AR for soft armor. For example, if a target has an AR of 12, the flechette rounds would only need a strike roll of 8 or better.
Standard Shot*: 4d6 SDC, 8d6 for a double-blast. CR 25 for a box of 50 shells.
Strung-Buck (Bolo)*: 6d6 SDC, 2d4x10 for a double-blast. 75' range.
Solid Slug*: 5d6 SDC, 1d6x10 SDC for a double-blast. CR 75 for a box of 50.
Buck & Ball*: Shell contains a fragmenting slug as well as some buckshot. 1d4x10 SDC to soft targets, 2d4x10 SDC for a double-blast. 1/2 damage against hard targets. CR 90 for a box of 50.
Rocket Slug*: 6d6 SDC, 2d4x10 SDC for a double-blast. CR 125 for a box of 50.
Armor-Piercing Rocket Slug*: 7d6 SDC, 2d4x10+10 SDC for a double-blast. CR 200 for a box of 50.
Armor-Piercing Ramjet Slug*: 3d6 MD, 6d6 MD for a double-blast to the same target. 500' range. CR 10,000 for a box of 50, OR 2d6 MD, 4d6 MD for a double-blast to the same target. 500' range. CR 1,000 for a box of 50.
Explosive Shells (SDC): 2d4x10 SDC to a 6' radius, or 4d4x10 to a 10' radius for a double-blast. CR 250 for a box of 50 shells.
Explosive Shells (Light Explosive) 1d6 MD, 2d6 MD for a double-blast. CR 75 each.
Explosive Shells (Frag)*: 2d6 MD to a 5' radius, or 3d6 MD to a 10' radius for a double-blast. CR 140 per shell.
Little Dragon (Incendiary): Shoots a 75' blast of flame. 2d6 SDC to everything in the blast (3' radius), plus 40% chance of flammables igniting. 4d6 SDC to everything in the blast (6' radius) per double-blast, plus 85% chance of flammables igniting.
Dragon Spit (Incendiary): Slug ignites on impact. 3d6 SDC, plus a 45% chance of igniting flammables. 6d6 SDC for a double-blast, plus a 90% chance of igniting flammables.
Big Dragon (Plasma): 3d6 MD to a 3' diameter, or 5d6 to a 6' diameter for a double blast. CR 175 per shell.

[wyrmraker]

I never saw that before. I just came up with all of that material today; my usual HU GM hates it when I start making weaponry. Especially when he can't really argue against me to disallow it once I show him that it's all real.

[Killer Cyborg]

I never saw that before. I just came up with all of that material today; my usual HU GM hates it when I start making weaponry. Especially when he can't really argue against me to disallow it once I show him that it's all real.

At one point, I tried to write up shotgun ammo for all the common gauges... but then I found some different gauges in ATB, and they had different damages than I listed, so I ended up chucking the project rather than rewriting/recalculating it all.

[wyrmraker]

I could recalculate it, but it wouldn't fit in with Palladium's combat system.

[Tor]

I should start another thread about how energy pistols are poorly handled in Rifts (mostly because they are assumed to use the same e-clips as energy rifles

Interestingly enough, while there seems to be no pistol/rifle distinction with E-clips...

There are apparently different BRAND of e-clip. I don't mean size like mini/short/long/FSE/Russians or whatev, but actually, the maker.

Vampire Kingdoms had a Wilk's outlet who would offer a discount for recharging Wilk's E-Clips. So that's a good reason to buy from them, if their outlets offer deals like this, and also to go recharge from them.

I assume for them to be identified that although they are all universal, there must be a distinctive way of identifying them. Otherwise you could buy an e-clip from NG (or use a CS one) and slap a Wilk's sticker on it to get the discount. I'm thinking some kind of unique ID system that's hard to duplicate. The cost of forgery might outweigh the discount.

I think I also saw something about Northern Gun style E-clips and a similar (but less impressive) offer but I can't recall where since I've been all over various books tonight.

[Warmaster40k]

IMO, run both..
3D6*200cr = high quality rounds, less common, meant for more military use.
2D6*20cr = low quality, but common rounds meant for export.

Opposite, the cheaper ones for military.

[Tor]

Might depend on the operation. Cheap low-damage for grunts in mass numbers, expensive high-damage ones for commandos.

[flatline]

150% damage for 1000% cost really isn't such a bad deal when it comes to kinetic weapons, especially if you allow bursts.

However, if you're willing to pay $200 for 3d6, you might be better served getting the explosive or plasma rounds if you're just looking for damage (can't remember the exact stats and the books are inaccessible right now). Better damage and an area effect.

Anyone remember the stats for the Achilles Republic combat shotgun? Can the 5d6MD round be used in regular shotguns or is it somehow specific to that one?

--flatline

[Shark_Force]

Might depend on the operation. Cheap low-damage for grunts in mass numbers, expensive high-damage ones for commandos.

both versions of the APRJ round are cheap low-damage ammo. neither are likely to be used by commandos by default (but could be used in specific situations, of course).

[Tor]

3D6 isn't too low, especially since double-barreled shotgun lets you fire both at once for 6D6.

That's not as impressive as those d4x10 / d6x10 plasma or particle beam weapons, but does have the advantage of being a physical weapon. Keep in mind in that tier that pump guns or the small railgun in CWC only do 4D6 per attack.

Of course in those cases they can fire for multiple attacks for reloading, so that's a counter-balance. But you could dive behind cover while you reloaded the shotgun. If you had a force-field that would be a good time to let it recharge, too.

I don't think that 200 credits a shot for 3D6 is particularly cheap though... at least not compared to energy weapons. In terms of physical damage though, compared to 400/shot for 4D6 from a pump pistol it is better.

[Shark_Force]

as a commando, rate of fire and payload are going to be pretty important to you. so will range.

and the main cost advantage is in the gun. you can buy a dirt-cheap weapon (which is also useful for other special purposes, like firing SDC rounds with special properties like being made of silver or similar), and that's what makes APRJ rounds a cheap option. for a couple thousand credits, you can buy a fully-loaded gun that inflicts MDC and is also one of the more versatile weapons in the game.

[Tor]

also if access to Sub-Particle Acceleration picks up, not having E-clips as a liability in close range is kinda nice

[Shark_Force]

also if access to Sub-Particle Acceleration picks up, not having E-clips as a liability in close range is kinda nice

that's pretty overrated in my opinion.

odds are good that if they can use sub-particle acceleration on your e-clips, they could do worse as well. damage sucks. getting hit by a magic net is worse. they may even have options to kill you inside your armour without damaging your gear, in which case they get much better salvage.

[Tor]

odds are good that if they can use sub-particle acceleration on your e-clips, they could do worse as well.

Worse from what? A direct hit from the spell does d6x10+level. 2D6x10 blast radius (not to mention losing all your ammo) to you and your weapon sounds worse to me.

What else are you going to do with 20 PPE from 100ft/level ?

damage sucks.

Did I miss SPA getting some kind of damage nerf? It does as much as 2 hits from a Deathbringer sword if you explode someone's full clip.

getting hit by a magic net is worse. they may even have options to kill you inside your armour without damaging your gear, in which case they get much better salvage.

I agree that killing someone without hurting their gear is better for salvage, I'm just not sure if it would be as safe to attempt.

SPA even at 1st level has a better range than Magic Net, it doesn't require getting as close, so it's safer. Magic Net can also be dodged, while SPA has no savings throw. Dispel Magic Barriers also won't allow instant recovery from your e-clip blowing you and everyone nearby to smithereens.

[wyrmraker]

odds are good that if they can use sub-particle acceleration on your e-clips, they could do worse as well.

Worse from what? A direct hit from the spell does d6x10+level. 2D6x10 blast radius (not to mention losing all your ammo) to you and your weapon sounds worse to me.

What else are you going to do with 20 PPE from 100ft/level ?

damage sucks.

Did I miss SPA getting some kind of damage nerf? It does as much as 2 hits from a Deathbringer sword if you explode someone's full clip.

getting hit by a magic net is worse. they may even have options to kill you inside your armour without damaging your gear, in which case they get much better salvage.

I agree that killing someone without hurting their gear is better for salvage, I'm just not sure if it would be as safe to attempt.

SPA even at 1st level has a better range than Magic Net, it doesn't require getting as close, so it's safer. Magic Net can also be dodged, while SPA has no savings throw. Dispel Magic Barriers also won't allow instant recovery from your e-clip blowing you and everyone nearby to smithereens.

We have ruled that a Strike roll is needed to use Sub-Particle Acceleration to overcharge an e-clip. It can easily get too outrageous otherwise.

[flatline]

We ruled that you couldn't charge e-clips with sub-particle acceleration unless you were touching the e-clip.

You can blow up your enemy's e-clip if you can touch it, but you're going to be right there in the blast radius.

--flatline

[wyrmraker]

I can get behind that ruling, even if it goes against the text of the spell.

[Tor]

I like outrageous Helps give some advantage back to PA/Bots.

If this is a dangerous tactic then we should just invent some kind of magical shielding for e-clips to protect them. Like maybe a plastic case that goes on the outside. That way, the SPA can't directly hit it and just destroys the case on the first hit.

That would leave it vulnerable on the second: but by that time you would be able to get a shot off with your weapon so thati t's not full and won't explode when hit by later SPAs, just recharged.

The main threat is just when you get surprise-attacked or lose initiative, getting a shot off is the best defense against an explosion.

Course an undodgeable ~35 attack is enoguh to 1-shot most weapons... but lacking a strike roll might mean you can't make called shots and they hit main body when launched? *shrug*

[wyrmraker]

Personally, my favorite weapon to load with the APRJ rounds is the BigBore "Universal" Variable Assault Rifle (Black Market, p.141). Stupidly heavy (20 pounds. Seriously), it says, "The final design of the variable breech assault rifle allows it to use BigBore revolver rounds, BigBore shotgun rounds, conventional S.D.C. shotgun shells, Triax pump rounds and even conventional S.D.C. rifle rounds of various caliber sizes, as well as
wooden and silver shotgun shells designed for fighting vampires and the supernatural."

The NG-11S descriptor states: "this .60 caliber smoothbore fires normal shotgun shells, explosive versions, ramjets and even Bandito’s signature BigBore ammo", by standard Palladium logic (they're not firearms experts by ANY stretch of the imagination), that means that all of the NG-11S rounds are considered 12 gauge. Therefore, by backtracking that same analogy, all of the above will chamber into the BigBore Universal. Fun, yes?

Now, imagine the 6 round long burst of APRJ rounds. Or the plasma shells. Suddenly a lot of fun is looking even more possible. Toss in some standard shotgun rounds, and it can get a lot more creatively messy.

[Shark_Force]

odds are good that if they can use sub-particle acceleration on your e-clips, they could do worse as well.

Worse from what? A direct hit from the spell does d6x10+level. 2D6x10 blast radius (not to mention losing all your ammo) to you and your weapon sounds worse to me.

What else are you going to do with 20 PPE from 100ft/level ?

damage sucks.

Did I miss SPA getting some kind of damage nerf? It does as much as 2 hits from a Deathbringer sword if you explode someone's full clip.

getting hit by a magic net is worse. they may even have options to kill you inside your armour without damaging your gear, in which case they get much better salvage.

I agree that killing someone without hurting their gear is better for salvage, I'm just not sure if it would be as safe to attempt.

SPA even at 1st level has a better range than Magic Net, it doesn't require getting as close, so it's safer. Magic Net can also be dodged, while SPA has no savings throw. Dispel Magic Barriers also won't allow instant recovery from your e-clip blowing you and everyone nearby to smithereens.

if you're at longer range? invulnerability (on someone else) or impervious to energy (on yourself) will make you immune to the energy weapon anyways. if you're at close range, there are better options. magic net either hits the target (and 1d6-1 others) or they spent an action to dodge... in which case they didn't shoot, and your next action comes up. which you can spend on another magic net. a spell which, i might add, does not cost you two actions to cast and therefore cannot be interrupted by getting shot before you can cast it (of course, both invulnerability and impervious to energy require two actions as well... but those actions can be taken from total cover and are therefore much harder to interrupt).

as for dispel magic barriers, that assumes there is even someone around who can cast it (not that common), and that they didn't get hit (magic net prevents you from acting apart from purely mental actions if you're hit. you can't dispel magic barriers from inside it. there might be an argument you could make for the escape spell, but imo it would probably mention magic net if it worked).

alternately, if your goal is to kill them, you may wish to try mental blast. it is also a 1-action spell, which means you can cast 2 by the time your single sub-particle acceleration would go off, and it cannot be interrupted. 10d6 damage direct to hit points will kill most normal people, so you're in pretty good shape with that, plus there's no indication where it is being cast from, something which is *not* noted as a feature of sub-particle acceleration. since it does not have to go through their armour or deal with the GI joe rule, it is likely also faster (unless you're dealing with a target that actually has a lot of hit points... specifically hit points, not SDC, though).

simply put, it is easier to neutralize the enemy by making their weapon ineffective (as well as the weapons of their allies), and it also does not destroy valuable loot. doesn't sound that risky to me once they are literally incapable of hurting you. i just don't really see sub-particle acceleration as being a great offensive spell in terms of blowing up e-clips (though it is certainly better for that than it is as a direct damage spell). and as can be seen from the posts of others, it is quite likely that the rules will be ignored on how it works and you won't be able to blow up your enemy's e-clips from range with no save allowed anyways.

[Tor]

Now, imagine the 6 round long burst of APRJ rounds. Or the plasma shells. Suddenly a lot of fun is looking even more possible.

I'm not sure how to imagine it. A 2-shot burst doing damage x 2 doesn't necessarily mean a 6-round burst will do damage x 6 (however fun it sounds).

if you're at longer range? invulnerability (on someone else) or impervious to energy (on yourself) will make you immune to the energy weapon anyways

E-clips do not only power energy weapons, they also power some non-energy weapons. New West 175 includes some "Light Rail Guns" which use them as a power source instead of a nuclear power pack like heavier rail guns use.

Then you also have e-clips that power force fields. I'm not sure if a called shot to a hand-held weapon would trigger a force field defense (not sure about the radius, I would think yes on small/short weapons but not sure about really long ones) but I bet the force field generator itself (and its e-clips) would be protected... But if you destroy e-clips non-force-field people are holding, it prevents them from giving it to the guy with the force field to renew his field.

Also: taking out enemy energy weapons can help save team-mates or property, even if you yourself are protected.

Plus: that Invulnerability/ItE isn't going to protect your armor unless it's built in as a TW modification (the basic spell only protects the person, only Impervious to Fire mentions protecting gear, and doesn't require TW)

Also again: the explosion caused by an e-clip going boom probably has some kind of physical aspect to it, which may bypass ItE/Invulnerability at least partially. A bit unclear on that. The e-clip does have a physical casing so I would think that could provide a fragment component, but then again, plasma missiles also have a casing and they don't, so I'm not sure. But I think plasma missile casings are meant to give way and not interfere with the plasma while an exploding e-clip isn't designed to give way so I think it would fragment.

if you're at close range, there are better options. magic net either hits the target (and 1d6-1 others) or they spent an action to dodge... in which case they didn't shoot, and your next action comes up.

Or they all simultaneously attack you as you do it Or they're Juicers.

which you can spend on another magic net. a spell which, i might add, does not cost you two actions to cast and therefore cannot be interrupted by getting shot before you can cast it

Huh, good point. I was going to say that level 7 spells are 'right over the cusp' but I'm thinking 1-6 from RMB, forgot that RUE changed the low-level spells to 1-5. Am guessing that KS' suggestion in FoM to count levels 1-8 all as low-level no longer applies.

In this case: pretty sure casting SPA via Talisman or via a TW item (like the Deathbringer sword) might allow it in 1 action, but those would be rare scenarios. More mages are also going to know a level 4 spell than are going to know a level 7 one. Magic Net seems like a more accessible solution, but if we are talking in terms of "I have access to the rare" then in ideal terms (and casting level 1-8 spells via Talisman is always more ideal than casting them from scratch, assuming same spell strength/level) SPA seems better.

In casting-naked terms, Magic Net has an appreciable speed advantage, agreed. I would Magic Net first and then SPA second in an emergency.

In the case where you are ambushing someone, aiming/casting time isn't a factor on the first action, so SPA is advantageous there.

(of course, both invulnerability and impervious to energy require two actions as well... but those actions can be taken from total cover and are therefore much harder to interrupt).

Is one unable to spend the 1st action casting SPA under cover and only come out of cover on 2nd action to launch it?

as for dispel magic barriers, that assumes there is even someone around who can cast it (not that common)

It's the same level as Invulnerability or Sub-Particle Acceleration.

and that they didn't get hit (magic net prevents you from acting apart from purely mental actions if you're hit. you can't dispel magic barriers from inside it.

The spell does not say you are unable to act apart from mental action. It says you are 'helpless and unable to attack or defend'.

However it also says that "it takes a full two melee rounds to cut or blast out".

The phrase "blast out" is something you would expect to see when someone is blasting from within to escape. "I'm blasting out". Even in the phrase "I'm blasting you out" it is still the "you" doing the "out".

Casting an escape or dispel spell may not qualify as either an 'attack' or a 'defense'. Seems more like a mobility/transportation thing.

Even if it said utter physical mobility (and inability to attack or defend does not necessarily indicate that) the Underseas rules on silent-casting allows you to do it with pure mental chanting. Dunno if this bypasses the 'gestures' aspect in RUE though.

If you wear a Talisman with dispel magic barriers you could just activate that though.

there might be an argument you could make for the escape spell, but imo it would probably mention magic net if it worked).

Not sure if net entanglement (magic or otherwise) falls under the scope of the Escape spell. It's not given as one of the examples.

if your goal is to kill them, you may wish to try mental blast. it is also a 1-action spell, which means you can cast 2 by the time your single sub-particle acceleration would go off, and it cannot be interrupted.

Ah, that spell first mentioned in Wormwood but which did not appear until FoM

At level 1 it does have greater range as SPA, but SPA outclasses it at level 2 and beyond.

It's ineffective if the guy's wearing PA, and while a lot of PA will resort to using built-in weapon systems rather than e-clips, some of the cheaper suits don't come with weapons, or come with ones that are less effective than separate weapons, so they'll still be using e-clips and vulnerable to their sabotage.

Even for those in body armor that are vulnerable to Mental Blast, they get a savings throw vs Psi to half the damage. Even in that case, an average of 8.75 dmg direct to HP is nothing to sneeze at for most folk. Less of an advantage against MDC creatures though. For naked guys using energy weapons (like Gargoyles)

I will give props to this having great stealth though, since only psychics can detect the attack and only Melters/Bleeders can do it well enough to know who the attack is from. Spells like this help to justify CS paranoia about mages. It's as bad as those Mind Bolts people toss about, or worse since basic armor isn't a protection. *thinks CS should put those 2 million SAMAS to use on all grunts as a defense against this spell*

Range is a huge deal though. The 120ft range of a level 2 Mental Blast means the mage has to get close enough for a 5th level dog boy to sense him (without using powers) while the 200ft range of a level 2 SPA means it would take a 9th level one to sniff you out.

This also means that a level 8 SPA could be launched from far enough away that a level 1 Dog Boy could not smell you while using the spell. You'd have to cast at level 70 strength (or get some kind of range amplication from a ley line/nexus which would mess with scent anyway) to be able to get this benefit from a Mental Blast. The level-scale favors SPA.

10d6 damage direct to hit points will kill most normal people, so you're in pretty good shape with that, plus there's no indication where it is being cast from

You have to touch bare flesh to double the 5D6, so I would think "that guy touching my skin" would be some indication.

If you're talking about casting 2 Mental Blasts then it's worth pointing out this will net you 30 PPE while SPA only costs 20. SPA e-clip wrecking is also area-effect so it can wreck the guy's weapons (including non-energy ones like vibro-blades or pump-action grenade guns). This obviously is not as much of an advantage if you're fighting a guy without a full e-clip to target though.

As the Psi-Slinger is the only guy with the ability to sense how much is in an e-clip, there is a risk that you are making a gamble on this being a possibility when you target it. Otherwise, you may just recharge the e-clip and help out your enemy.

There is of course another means: if you know how many shots an e-clip provides and are able to see the read-out on the gun (some have digital shot displays) you could tell how full a clip is that way. Shot amounts can vary based on short/long/FSE/canister which could complicate estimations. Being able to tell if a gun is loaded with a short/long/FSE/canister could solve this. As to how: sounds like some kind of "Lore:Weapons" type thing. Not sure if the WP skill would be enough, might require a 'Recognize Weapons Quality' or similar.

something which is *not* noted as a feature of sub-particle acceleration

If you launch a surprise attack, people may be too disoriented by the exploding E-clip to remember what direction they might've seen the blast coming from. Perception rolls would be needed. Although odds are a dog boy will sniff you as soon as you begin to cast, it's a bit unclear to me how long it takes these guys to hone in on a scent: could they do it within 2 melee actions?

since it does not have to go through their armour or deal with the GI joe rule, it is likely also faster (unless you're dealing with a target that actually has a lot of hit points... specifically hit points, not SDC, though).

We're still talking a single-target situation right? SPAbooming a group is speedy.

If people are able to react to your mental blast attack at all (you have a point about the stealthiness) they'll do so after the first one, so you're on bar with the SPA at that point, even if the 2nd shot will get off faster in your case.

Course if you are not silent casting then it might be easier to perceive a guy waving hands / mumbling from 110ft away than it is from 200ft away. At 1st level the SPA guy has to be closer so he'd be a bigger target.

simply put, it is easier to neutralize the enemy by making their weapon ineffective (as well as the weapons of their allies), and it also does not destroy valuable loot.

Mental Blast doesn't make weapons ineffective, it compromises their user. I figure you're back to talking about Magic Net at this point.

I agree that Magic Net and Mental Blast are better loot-retainers than direct damage spells. I'm talking about pure 'most effective survival fight for your life screw the money' situations. E-clips alone are valuable, so in making a strategy around blowing them up, I'm clearly ignoring the monetary advantages of different spells that don't need to blow up an e-clip.

If I was talking about pure damage spells I'd revert to discussing Power Bolt since it has better range than Sub-Particle Acceleration. Being level 6 it used to be low level but as of RUE I guess it's mid-level now. 2 actions before and after This is harder to dodge than a magic net. It's a blue beam so it's not covert like a Mental Blast, but it also doesn't require exposing yourself to the dangers of closer range to use. Kind of on par with using an L-20 pulse rifle to shoot someone.

doesn't sound that risky to me once they are literally incapable of hurting you.

That's the case whether Mental Blast or SPA kills someone. But we're talking, on the first surprise attack, 5d6 to HP versus 1d6x10 MD or 2d6x10 MD. Which is more lethal does depend on the character.

If the person does survive the first hit though, the lower-range attack is in range of a wider measure of counter-measures. It could make the difference between whether or not your target is able to throw a grenade or a vibro-deadball or a low-caliber weapon at you.

I do defer that the 'undetectible except to Bleeders/Melters' bit is an amazing advantage in terms of attacking someone who does not know you are an enemy. Short of a Psi-Hound/Stalker intervening and going "this guy is the only person around here casting magic!" you could get away with murder pretty easily.

Going to say it sucks when you want to tango with someone in PA though.

i just don't really see sub-particle acceleration as being a great offensive spell in terms of blowing up e-clips (though it is certainly better for that than it is as a direct damage spell).

It seems pretty good as a direct damage spell too. Power Bolt kills it in range, of course, but the great low-level damage means that for stuff like Call Lightning to compete, the caster would have to be higher level, at which point SPA would then have a bigger range than Call Lightning (locked at 300)

and as can be seen from the posts of others, it is quite likely that the rules will be ignored on how it works and you won't be able to blow up your enemy's e-clips from range with no save allowed anyways.

If you think it's likely that people will ignore rules when the spells allow easy kills then people could similarly ignore the rule about Mental Blast being able to bypass armor and may nerf it to a touch-only spell.

"People are likely to ignore canon" isn't much of an argument about what spells are great in canon.

[wyrmraker]

I'm fairly certain that the "x2 damage for 6 round burst" is a misprint, considering they state that the 3 round burst is the same damage. I would say that the 6 round burst was most likely meant to be twice the damage of the 3 round burst, which makes it x4 damage. At least, that's what I would take it to mean. Your mileage may vary.

[Tor]

Where is the 6-round long burst discussed? Not sure which book the NG-11S is in.

[wyrmraker]

The 6-round burst is in Black Market, in the description of the BigBore Universal Rifle, p.141.

Although to be honest, I have always disliked how Palladium writes up burst fire in a supposedly 'cinematic' campaign setting.

The NG-11S first appeared in Juicer Uprising, and made a reappearance in Northern Gun 1.

[Tor]

The Big Bore's 6-round is double the damage of the 3-round in the case of revolver rounds, but not with shotgun, it only goes 4d4 to 5d6. That's 3 less min damage, 1 less max, and 10*2 v 17.5 avg.

[wyrmraker]

The Big Bore's 6-round is double the damage of the 3-round in the case of revolver rounds, but not with shotgun, it only goes 4d4 to 5d6. That's 3 less min damage, 1 less max, and 10*2 v 17.5 avg.

I was going off the SDC round values. After all, apart from the payload APRJ rounds should be conventional shotgun rounds. They aren't explosive, like the BigBore shotgun rounds.

And I never liked how PB does their burst fire rules. It has never made any sense to me. "Because we said so" is no excuse for ignorance of how conventional firearms function.

Edit> Granted, as a gunsmith I have an intimate, working knowledge of firearms. Just regular gunsmithing (Weapons Engineer) should allow a character to adjust the burst fire settings rather easily with conventional firearms. Add to the firearm things like muzzle compensators and in-frame recoil managers (reduces muzzle rise and recoil), customized handgrips (increases stability), and a properly fitted drum magazine. Suddenly the firearm in question becomes a much nastier beast, and all of these modifications are modern-day items. Any Operator, Psi-Tek, or Techno-Wizard could do all of this work on a conventional firearm with a few tools and materials.

Plus I am well-known to not be able to leave anything well enough alone. My GM has come close to outright banning me from playing any character with Weapons Engineering many times. I think it's hysterical.

[wyrmraker]

I have mentioned it before in other threads that any character with the Weapons Engineer skill and the equipment can manufacture just about any conventional non-energy weapon. Therefore crafting a hand-held automatic shotgun for the APRJ rounds (or anything else in 12 gauge) would take anywhere from a few days (double barrel) to a few weeks (mounted gatling shotgun). And given the existence of the BigBore "Universal"
Variable Assault Rifle, making a shotgun capable of holding different ammunition types shouldn't be terribly complicated with a little reverse engineering.

Therefore just about any Operator, Psi-Tek, or Techno-Wizard could manufacture a mega-damage shotgun of nearly any type. They would just need the tools required to get the job done (mill, lathe, etc).

Why do you remove the Weapons Engineer's ability to build energy weapons? They should be able to build pretty much any weapon energy or non.

I have never claimed that someone with Weapons Engineer is incapable of crafting energy weapons. But as a gunsmith, I know all of the tools required to craft a modern firearm. I would imagine that energy weapons would require somewhat more advanced parts and specialized tools. After all, I can't envision a Weapons Engineer crafting a laser rifle barrel using only a lathe, or install a magazine well on it without quite a bit of solder.

[Nightmask]

I have mentioned it before in other threads that any character with the Weapons Engineer skill and the equipment can manufacture just about any conventional non-energy weapon. Therefore crafting a hand-held automatic shotgun for the APRJ rounds (or anything else in 12 gauge) would take anywhere from a few days (double barrel) to a few weeks (mounted gatling shotgun). And given the existence of the BigBore "Universal"
Variable Assault Rifle, making a shotgun capable of holding different ammunition types shouldn't be terribly complicated with a little reverse engineering.

Therefore just about any Operator, Psi-Tek, or Techno-Wizard could manufacture a mega-damage shotgun of nearly any type. They would just need the tools required to get the job done (mill, lathe, etc).

Why do you remove the Weapons Engineer's ability to build energy weapons? They should be able to build pretty much any weapon energy or non.

I have never claimed that someone with Weapons Engineer is incapable of crafting energy weapons. But as a gunsmith, I know all of the tools required to craft a modern firearm. I would imagine that energy weapons would require somewhat more advanced parts and specialized tools. After all, I can't envision a Weapons Engineer crafting a laser rifle barrel using only a lathe, or install a magazine well on it without quite a bit of solder.

When you say you let them build any non-energy weapon you're implying you don't let them build energy weapons. There's also the flaw in your argument there as to why you think the barrel of a laser rifle requires anything other than what it takes to make the barrel of a non-laser rifle or that for some strange reason machining things for an e-clip receptacle would require anything extra when that portion of things is just as mechanical as the rest. Particularly when the pre-requisites for Weapons Engineering are Mechanical AND Electrical Engineering, because they're supposed to be able to build, design, repair, etc ALL types of weapons energy and non-energy.

[wyrmraker]

I have mentioned it before in other threads that any character with the Weapons Engineer skill and the equipment can manufacture just about any conventional non-energy weapon. Therefore crafting a hand-held automatic shotgun for the APRJ rounds (or anything else in 12 gauge) would take anywhere from a few days (double barrel) to a few weeks (mounted gatling shotgun). And given the existence of the BigBore "Universal"
Variable Assault Rifle, making a shotgun capable of holding different ammunition types shouldn't be terribly complicated with a little reverse engineering.

Therefore just about any Operator, Psi-Tek, or Techno-Wizard could manufacture a mega-damage shotgun of nearly any type. They would just need the tools required to get the job done (mill, lathe, etc).

Why do you remove the Weapons Engineer's ability to build energy weapons? They should be able to build pretty much any weapon energy or non.

I have never claimed that someone with Weapons Engineer is incapable of crafting energy weapons. But as a gunsmith, I know all of the tools required to craft a modern firearm. I would imagine that energy weapons would require somewhat more advanced parts and specialized tools. After all, I can't envision a Weapons Engineer crafting a laser rifle barrel using only a lathe, or install a magazine well on it without quite a bit of solder.

When you say you let them build any non-energy weapon you're implying you don't let them build energy weapons. There's also the flaw in your argument there as to why you think the barrel of a laser rifle requires anything other than what it takes to make the barrel of a non-laser rifle or that for some strange reason machining things for an e-clip receptacle would require anything extra when that portion of things is just as mechanical as the rest. Particularly when the pre-requisites for Weapons Engineering are Mechanical AND Electrical Engineering, because they're supposed to be able to build, design, repair, etc ALL types of weapons energy and non-energy.

I wasn't implying anything of the sort. And no, the barrel of a laser rifle should include some sort of laser emitter, as opposed to a hollow tube. An e-clip receptacle would have to include wiring of some sort, as opposed to a rectangular hole with a mechanical catch. The action of any energy weapon would have to be largely electronic in nature, as opposed to a conventional firearm which is mechanical in nature.

I was merely keeping with the theme (in the thread) of conventional firearms. Nothing more. Any suggestion that I don't allow Weapons Engineers to build energy weapons is incorrect. But as a gunsmith, I fully comprehend the science behind conventional firearms, as opposed to the theoretical sciences behind energy weapons. So that is what I was referencing.