Cheapest nuclear PA?

[Tor]

One major advantage to PA as of Mercs is the ability to essentially get an eternal (well, year-long) E-clip for the purpose of keeping up a regenerate-each-melee Naruni force-field, which would be a HUGE save on repair cost from surprise attacks, as well as increasing general survivability, particularly if things like phase weapons make their way in.

This got me wondering what the cheapest PA was that can host this.

Although the Warmonger (Mercs145) is probably the cheapest suit around (great if you want those extra melee attacks or mega-damage body throws) it and the Challenger (Mercs144) only have electric batteries so they would not fit the 'nuclear' stipulation of being able to support an eternal force field.

Which makes me wonder... since the robot-style twice-as-good force fields can be installed on cyborgs... should we assume all borgs have nuclear generators in them? I'm pretty sure all robots do... though if anyone knows any non-nuclear electric-battery robots, please inform. Maybe this was mentioned about borgs somewhere... I could see it possibly being the case for full-conversion but I imagine there might be complications with Partial or lesser having nuclear generators in them, I would question if less-than-full Borgs could support robot force fields like that.

So far as I can find, the cheapest suit of Power Armor with a nuclear power system appears to be the Chipell Assault Suit on page 145, which is half the cost of the T-21 Terrain Hopper on page 40 of NGR both much cheaper than the Samson, which is (far as I know) the cheapest PA in RMB.

I am wondering though, about nuclear-powered exo-skeletons. Not technically PA so I don't know if they fit the nomenclature of what can host a Naruni field. Now that I read more closely, I don't think it HAS to be power-armor... specifically we are told:
*fields can be built into:
**"any MDC armor suit"
**"powered armor"
*when connected to a nuclear reactor, the field can run indefinitetly

If all it takes is a nuclear battery though... Dimension Book 3 page 13's "Light Exoskeleton" of the In'Valians is less than half the cost of the Chipwell Assault Suit. I'm not sure how that compares though since Three Galaxies' credits and Rifts Earth credits aren't always equivalent, there being strange exchange rates sometimes.. although sometimes things are the same price in both if you trade with wares rather than credits directly, so it's a weird economy...

Does anyknow know if a cost in credits is ever given for certain borg conversions? I remember seeing the cost in credits to buy a Crazy or Juicer conversion... there are costs for the named variants in NGR and Russia but they are all in the realm of millions of dollars so they can't really compete (plus the price of robot-style forcefields isn't pretty) kinda wondering what the rock-bottom cost is of a borg conversion w/ nuclear reactor for eternal-field.

So basically right now, the best deals I have found are from Chipwell or In'Val... seeing if there is a way to trump that. Since all you technically need is a nuclear reactor, I don't even necessarily have to get a power-armor or an exo-skeleton, I guess. In theory you could buy a non-nuclear PA like the Warmonger and build a force-field into it (those things look cool!) and just connect the power for that force field into the nuclear battery of something else.

I'm not sure about a lot of things that have nuclear batteries though...

There are nuclear-powered vehicles besides robots. Mercs/PW doesn't explicitly say you can build their force fields into non-robot vehicles... but perhaps if you wore non-nuclear PA with a force field gen, it could be somehow hooked up to the vehicle?

The main problem with that though is that the field would only go around the person... so presumably there would be some kind of exposed connector-cable which could be targetted to take out the field?

Better would be some kind of portable nuclear-powered object that could be held or worn, unlike a vehicle's. I don't really know how small they come though... anyone know the smallest and/or cheapest nuclear battery?

[Rayneth]

Robots that run off something non-nuclear? That one is very easy, the latest World Book 33: Northern Gun 1 book features a huge catalog of giant robots that are available in Solid Oxide Fuel Cell or Electric battery powered models. Both of which offer a respectable amount of longevity, certainly enough to head to a skirmish, fight then head back. Especially if you are travelling with nuclear powered vehicles to recharge electric batteries. Northern Gun also offers a special service to replace a nuclear reactor of competitor's models with Solid Oxide and Electric batteries. The only reason I could foresee someone removing their perfectly good nuclear reactor for a less long lasting alternative would be that the reactor was reaching the end of its life.

You would be correct about the Chipwell Assault Suit being the cheapest nuclear powered PA on the open market. It is fluffed as being smaller, less durable and has a much less working life than more expensive models.

Exo-Skeletons like the T-25 "Uber" Super Exoskeleton armor typically do not have a listed battery source for them, but they are all technically a form of environmentally sealed armor, which would allow it to fall under the "any MDC armor suit" requirement of the Naruni Forcefields. I would say that the exoskeletons do not have enough power output to power a force field indefinitely though, as exoskeletons for the most part do not have integrated weaponry that can fire energy weapons indefinitely.

I can't really speak for Dimensional Book materials as I usually stay away from them. Mostly because you would be immensely hard pressed to find something from there on sale on Earth that doesn't have the Naruni logo plastered on it.

Nuclear Reactors are typically too big to be handheld or hip mounted, but you can probably constructed a backpack mounted nuclear reactor specifically to carry it. One of the only nuclear models I know of is the Miniature fusion nuclear plant Merc Ops pg 113, about the size of a large suitcase and weighs almost 50 pounds which costs 2 million dollars. it does provide the output of a large robot vehicle though.

[Library Ogre]

Better would be some kind of portable nuclear-powered object that could be held or worn, unlike a vehicle's. I don't really know how small they come though... anyone know the smallest and/or cheapest nuclear battery?

Not sure of the price off the top of my head, but I recall the antigravity flight packs out of Phase World being pretty cheap, even for nuclear. Essentially a backpack with a hand-mounted control, that you could integrate into body armor if you wanted.

[FatherMorpheus]

Better would be some kind of portable nuclear-powered object that could be held or worn, unlike a vehicle's. I don't really know how small they come though... anyone know the smallest and/or cheapest nuclear battery?

Not sure of the price off the top of my head, but I recall the antigravity flight packs out of Phase World being pretty cheap, even for nuclear. Essentially a backpack with a hand-mounted control, that you could integrate into body armor if you wanted.

Though after the Phase World to Rifts Earth 1:10 exchange rate I don't know if it would be considered 'cheap' any more.

[Nekira Sudacne]

There is no one, listed, easy price to convert to a bionic body, because all bionics are priced "A La Carte". each limb/torso has a price, each organ has a price, each feature has a price, ect. the cost to become a cyborg is the total cost for each individual bionic, possibly with a discount for buying the whole set, plus the cyber docs service fees. in other words...every borg probablly paid a different price to become one.

[Tor]

Jet packs! Perfect! I was staring right at the page which had the NGR version and didn't even notice them...

Regarding Phase World, DB2p126-7 is pretty sweet, but it's still more expensive than the NGR's Terrain Hopper. It still might be good to tack this onto a Warmonger though...

NGRp34-5 has the T-100 with a nuclear battery, and even though it is designed for military use it doesn't have a "black" market cost so it might be possible to legally buy one. That said... it's actually more expensive than a Terrain Hopper, I guess speed sells.

NGRp38-9 has the Falcon 300 for slightly less than the Terrain Hopper (still more expensive than the Chipwell Assault Suit though) but it only goes slightly faster...

There is mention of a Wilk's jet pack under the T-100, had some trouble locating that (perhaps in SB1?) but while looking in RMB on page 226 I did notice that rail-guns also have nuclear power packs. So if we got the cheapest rail-guns, the NG 101 or 202, either would less than a third of the price of a Chipwell Assault Suit.

So in theory... perhaps you could buy the rail-gun set and just carry the power pack around to power your force-field? The NG-101 would be ideal since it is lighter than the power pack used by the 202. The SAMAS duplication is lightest but the BMcost for it is prohibitive. Most humans could not carry around the heavy rail guns but the power-packs are doable, less than half the weight of carrying a guy on your back. Probably some penalties for your average guy. Completely feasible in strength-enhancing exoskeletons and even cruddy suits like the Warmonger could let you lug one around. Dunno if the armor itself could be hooked up though.

Blah just found the Wilk's pack, on page 228 of RMB, thought it would be with the other Wilk's weapons... the WJP is even cheaper than the Falcon 300 (equal speed... why even get the Falcon...sure it's a bit lighter but it has less MDC) but still more expensive than Chipwell Assault Suit.

So in terms of economy... if you don't mind being ground-bound, go for CAS or build a force field into PA like a Warmonger and then tack on either a NG railgun or WJP for dat nuking.

Does anyone know if the Wilk's Jet Pack got an update since RMB? It's given a maximum flying range but I'm not sure if that's supposed to apply to combustion/electric/nuke and it still doesn't clarify how many gallons of fuel or e-clips of electricity it uses, or in the case of nuclear, how much cooldown time it'd need compared to the Eagle or Falcon.

[Killer Cyborg]

Which makes me wonder... since the robot-style twice-as-good force fields can be installed on cyborgs... should we assume all borgs have nuclear generators in them?

Yes.
RUE 53, the Laser Finger Blasterhas a payload of "Unlimited if tied to the cyborg's nuclear power supply."
I think it's actually discussed in the Bionics book, too.
I'm not sure if it would apply to Partial Conversion Borgs/Headhunters.

Does anyknow know if a cost in credits is ever given for certain borg conversions?

RMB 239
CR 550,000 for Partial Conversion
CR 900,000 for Full Conversion

Better would be some kind of portable nuclear-powered object that could be held or worn, unlike a vehicle's. I don't really know how small they come though... anyone know the smallest and/or cheapest nuclear battery?

RMB 226
A NG 101 costs CR 70,000.
It comes with a nuclear power pack that weighs 80 lbs, and has a 40 MDC protective casing.

If you want to drop the weight a bit, you can shell out CR 110,000 for a C-40R, which has a power pack that only weighs 60 lbs.

[Sureshot]

How about the Cheapo, Crapo, I mean Chipwell stuff. I don't have the Rifts Mercanaries yet I remember most of their stuff being underpriced deathtraps.

[Tor]

RUE 53, the Laser Finger Blasterhas a payload of "Unlimited if tied to the cyborg's nuclear power supply." I think it's actually discussed in the Bionics book, too. I'm not sure if it would apply to Partial Conversion Borgs/Headhunters.

This finger blaster does beg the question why so many of the RMB bionics require e-clips... although the LFB was self-recharging but at a pretty slow rate. Other stuff like the forearm blaster did not auto-recharge though. So I think the LFB (particularly since you could jam that into a headhunter bionic hand) might be like one of those kittani "I just recharge on my own" strangenesses.

RMB 239
CR 550,000 for Partial Conversion
CR 900,000 for Full Conversion

Thanks... oddly I was staring right at this page but didn't even see it, good to do a double-take.

RMB 226 a NG 101 costs CR 70,000. It comes with a nuclear power pack that weighs 80 lbs, and has a 40 MDC protective casing. If you want to drop the weight a bit, you can shell out CR 110,000 for a C-40R, which has a power pack that only weighs 60 lbs.

Noticed this in post previous

Since you got me thinking about it again I realized I didn't finish my investigation though, and NGR has not disappointed. Page 146 the TX-50 is even cheaper Although.... no weight is listed for a power-pack in this or the TX-250, which is weird... is it possible some rail-guns do not come with and manage to operate without nuclear power-packs? Or perhaps the power pack is built into the gun and not worn separately?

The TX-500 on page 147 does list a separate weight for a power pack (presumably nuclear) but it's more expensive than the NG-101.

If we forray into giants' territory then page 213's WR-200 is also cheaper than the NG-101, but it's weird like the 50/250 and also has no weight listed for a power pack.

How about the Cheapo, Crapo, I mean Chipwell stuff. I don't have the Rifts Mercanaries yet I remember most of their stuff being underpriced deathtraps.

Mentioned in the original post, yes The Chipwell Assault suit is the going contender for cheapest suit of power armor with a nuclear battery, while the In'Valian exoskeleton is the cheapest nuclear battery in non-PA.

Two rail guns in NGR are contenders to be cheapest nuclear weapons but it's unclear compared to the NG-101 whether they have them. If a rail gun did not have a nuclear power pack then presumably you would need E-clips or something to propel the ammo right?

[Nightmask]

How about the Cheapo, Crapo, I mean Chipwell stuff. I don't have the Rifts Mercanaries yet I remember most of their stuff being underpriced deathtraps.

Only the fluff, the actual stats for Chipwell stuff is comparable to anything else just dirt cheap.

[Tor]

Everything is comparable, do you mean similar? It seems to fall under most PA to me but the price reduction is well worth it.

[Sureshot]

Only the fluff, the actual stats for Chipwell stuff is comparable to anything else just dirt cheap.

I guess we will disagree about the stats. The Chipwell stuff is dirt cheap because anyone using them is going to take a quick dirt nap. That being said I can see why some towns and merc companies down on their luck would use them.

[Nightmask]

Only the fluff, the actual stats for Chipwell stuff is comparable to anything else just dirt cheap.

I guess we will disagree about the stats. The Chipwell stuff is dirt cheap because anyone using them is going to take a quick dirt nap. That being said I can see why some towns and merc companies down on their luck would use them.

You should actually look at their stats rather than going by the fluff. Other than the one that's made of SDC materials so it can also be damaged by SDC weapons none of them are actually inferior when it comes to stats. There are NO statements in the write-ups that they have inferior ranges on any of their systems, inferior protections, no 'chance to break down' rules, nothing. They're just as effective and reliable as any other power armor which means the 'death trap' claim in the book is just dead wrong, and that's before some Techno-Wizard or Gizmoteer gets ahold of one of those super-cheap armors to augment it.

[rat_bastard]

Well a glitter girl only gets paid 80 cents on the dollar what a glitter boy is paid and has to deal with sexist assumptions of how much chest plating they need along with a comically under powered sidearm...

Just kidding, it's probably trial terrain hopper.

[ShadowLogan]

This finger blaster does beg the question why so many of the RMB bionics require e-clips... although the LFB was self-recharging but at a pretty slow rate. Other stuff like the forearm blaster did not auto-recharge though. So I think the LFB (particularly since you could jam that into a headhunter bionic hand) might be like one of those kittani "I just recharge on my own" strangenesses.

The standard Nuclear Power Pack of a 'borg is not up to delivering the required energy (or in other words its output is insufficient) would be my assessment here, either in short term on demand situation or sustain the ROF desired. Granted that doesn't explain things like the Vibro-Blades, but it would make sense for various weapons.

I doubt that nuclear power packs in borgs have the same output as Power Armor, or other mecha.

[Nightmask]

This finger blaster does beg the question why so many of the RMB bionics require e-clips... although the LFB was self-recharging but at a pretty slow rate. Other stuff like the forearm blaster did not auto-recharge though. So I think the LFB (particularly since you could jam that into a headhunter bionic hand) might be like one of those kittani "I just recharge on my own" strangenesses.

The standard Nuclear Power Pack of a 'borg is not up to delivering the required energy (or in other words its output is insufficient) would be my assessment here, either in short term on demand situation or sustain the ROF desired. Granted that doesn't explain things like the Vibro-Blades, but it would make sense for various weapons.

I doubt that nuclear power packs in borgs have the same output as Power Armor, or other mecha.

You really have to wonder why though, since the average full conversion cyborg is running around with stats comparable to many power armor so why would the cyborgs systems somehow be able to run on so much less, and why wouldn't they be expected to have built-in energy weapons just like power armor and have them run off a robust internal system?

[Sureshot]

You should actually look at their stats rather than going by the fluff. Other than the one that's made of SDC materials so it can also be damaged by SDC weapons none of them are actually inferior when it comes to stats. There are NO statements in the write-ups that they have inferior ranges on any of their systems, inferior protections, no 'chance to break down' rules, nothing. They're just as effective and reliable as any other power armor which means the 'death trap' claim in the book is just dead wrong, and that's before some Techno-Wizard or Gizmoteer gets ahold of one of those super-cheap armors to augment it.

I have read the stats. None of my characters or any of my players at the table would be caught dead or alive wearing any of them. I get your point though. Still if I have a choice between Chipwell or some other kind I will get the other kind. Sure a Techno-wizard or Gizomoteer can augment it. Yet it would have to be a player character. The money spent augmenting would end up simply being cheaper to buy something better imo. As well being powered by batteries. Give me nuclaer power anytime of the day.

[Nightmask]

You should actually look at their stats rather than going by the fluff. Other than the one that's made of SDC materials so it can also be damaged by SDC weapons none of them are actually inferior when it comes to stats. There are NO statements in the write-ups that they have inferior ranges on any of their systems, inferior protections, no 'chance to break down' rules, nothing. They're just as effective and reliable as any other power armor which means the 'death trap' claim in the book is just dead wrong, and that's before some Techno-Wizard or Gizmoteer gets ahold of one of those super-cheap armors to augment it.

I have read the stats. None of my characters or any of my players at the table would be caught dead or alive wearing any of them. I get your point though. Still if I have a choice between Chipwell or some other kind I will get the other kind. Sure a Techno-wizard or Gizomoteer can augment it. Yet it would have to be a player character. The money spent augmenting would end up simply being cheaper to buy something better imo. As well being powered by batteries. Give me nuclaer power anytime of the day.

I've no idea how, having looked at the stats, you can still insist that the Chipwell armors live down to the fluff when they don't. Even the cost of TW or Gizmoteer augmentation is going to leave you with something equal or superior to a top-line power armor at well below high-end power armor prices.

[Sureshot]

I've no idea how, having looked at the stats, you can still insist that the Chipwell armors live down to the fluff when they don't. Even the cost of TW or Gizmoteer augmentation is going to leave you with something equal or superior to a top-line power armor at well below high-end power armor prices.

When I play rpgs I want the best. If possible and if I can afford it. I will buy the cheaper stuff I have to. Real life I can't spend my money as freely as I do in rpgs. I see no reason to have to live like I do in real life in a rpg. I'm not playing budgeting and accounting. I'm playing a rpg.

[kaid]

This finger blaster does beg the question why so many of the RMB bionics require e-clips... although the LFB was self-recharging but at a pretty slow rate. Other stuff like the forearm blaster did not auto-recharge though. So I think the LFB (particularly since you could jam that into a headhunter bionic hand) might be like one of those kittani "I just recharge on my own" strangenesses.

The standard Nuclear Power Pack of a 'borg is not up to delivering the required energy (or in other words its output is insufficient) would be my assessment here, either in short term on demand situation or sustain the ROF desired. Granted that doesn't explain things like the Vibro-Blades, but it would make sense for various weapons.

I doubt that nuclear power packs in borgs have the same output as Power Armor, or other mecha.

This also is illustrated by a lot of the integrated weapons that do tie to the cyborgs power supply give negatives to top speed and negatives to stats due to the power draw. It seems like full combat borgs do have some kind of nuclear energy source but it is much less capable power output wise to even very light power armor.

[Nightmask]

This finger blaster does beg the question why so many of the RMB bionics require e-clips... although the LFB was self-recharging but at a pretty slow rate. Other stuff like the forearm blaster did not auto-recharge though. So I think the LFB (particularly since you could jam that into a headhunter bionic hand) might be like one of those kittani "I just recharge on my own" strangenesses.

The standard Nuclear Power Pack of a 'borg is not up to delivering the required energy (or in other words its output is insufficient) would be my assessment here, either in short term on demand situation or sustain the ROF desired. Granted that doesn't explain things like the Vibro-Blades, but it would make sense for various weapons.

I doubt that nuclear power packs in borgs have the same output as Power Armor, or other mecha.

This also is illustrated by a lot of the integrated weapons that do tie to the cyborgs power supply give negatives to top speed and negatives to stats due to the power draw. It seems like full combat borgs do have some kind of nuclear energy source but it is much less capable power output wise to even very light power armor.

There really ought to be an option to have a more robust power supply installed.

[Tor]

Chipwell stuff is dirt cheap because anyone using them is going to take a quick dirt nap.

Someone using a Chipwell Assault Suit is going to be in a much better situation than someone in most kinds of environmental body armor. It only falls behind when compared to most other kinds of power armor suits.

About the only real comparative deathtrap is the Warmonger as most cases of light or medium body armor will outclass it. It's still got major advantages like letting you do MD melee combat, letting you carry heavy weapons, extra attacks, fire missiles with hands free for other stuff, etc. The other kind of batter suit they make is still also pretty decent, better than most body armor.

There are NO statements in the write-ups that they have inferior ranges on any of their systems, inferior protections, no 'chance to break down' rules, nothing.

Actually it does state this at the end of page 143, it's easy to miss, I didn't notice it until this week while reviewing them again. Basically it just has less range on the radar and targetting computers. It does say "usually" though and gives a range from 1/10 to 1/2 so I'm not sure specifically what we should use. That said: these are features not available in most body armor, so it's only compared to other power-armor suits where they fall a bit short.

The CAI-50 and the CAS-30 have no other limits listed besides the radar/targetting. The CAI-50 in particularly explicitly says it has telescopic/nightvision/polarization and radio. Not sure if the CAS has that.

The Warmonger on the other hand explicitly only has radio, nightvision and targeting, so I don't think it has radar at all. Must make using missiles kinda tricky. The non-radar targetting it uses also has a strike penalty.

The Warmonger has you make a savings throw to see if smoke/gas enter the armor, it's not like an AR or anything but a bit faulty, falls behind environmental body armor in this regard I guess. There's also a save penalty if the armor suffers damage. I don't know if any bonuses apply to this save. Also not sure what a vampire turned to mist entering your armor would actually do... besides avoid attack.

The money spent augmenting would end up simply being cheaper to buy something better

Electric engine TW conversion is prohibitive in this case, agreed. Would be cheaper to find a TW means of recharging batteries...

Oh wait... so instead of converting the Challenger to be directly powered by PPE, why not just convert the batteries or E-clip it runs on?

Not really sure how many though, it only tells how long the batteries last, not how many it uses up in a day or the recharge cost.

Give me nuclaer power anytime of the day.

You mean like how the Chipwell Assault Suit is nuclear-powered?

Even the cost of TW or Gizmoteer augmentation is going to leave you with something equal or superior to a top-line power armor at well below high-end power armor prices.

Ignoring the confusing battery/e-clip issue, directly converting the Challenger's electric engine to go on PPE would lead to a total cost of 175 thousand and has the benefit of having the armor last a full month before needing a recharge instead of a mere day. That is still cheaper than taking the nuclear option with a Chipwell Assault Suit. I'm not sure the extra 30 MDC and 4 PS those give are woth the extra 4 feet in height. Having an unlimited Wilk's is sure sweet tho.

When I play rpgs I want the best. If possible and if I can afford it. I will buy the cheaper stuff I have to. Real life I can't spend my money as freely as I do in rpgs. I see no reason to have to live like I do in real life in a rpg. I'm not playing budgeting and accounting. I'm playing a rpg.

In that case go get a Mecha-Knight or Super SAMAS or Silverhawk or flying Glitter-Boy, I guess? PCs don't always have unlimited budgets, or they might be concerned not just with spending on themself, but might want to outfit a community or a friend in PA as well.

[Sureshot]

I don't hate the Chipwell stuff at all. I even see the merits of such cheap equipment. I would take such a suit at low levels. Once I get more money and/or salvage a better suit then I will upgrade. Rifts is a deadly rpg. Sure if one plays smart and lucky that 50 MDC suit will go a long way. Eventually though it gets outclassed. At high levels it's easy to do close to that kind of damage. I think the description in the Mercenaries book does not help either I think. It kind of goes out of it's way to paint a bleak and bad picture of the Chipwell equipment. Mind you it's similar to Northern Gun where they try and convince a buyer that bigger, bulky and heavier is better. Having talked to people in the army it's anything but.

[ShadowLogan]

You really have to wonder why though, since the average full conversion cyborg is running around with stats comparable to many power armor so why would the cyborgs systems somehow be able to run on so much less, and why wouldn't they be expected to have built-in energy weapons just like power armor and have them run off a robust internal system?

While a Cyborg can be made to have comparable stats to a PA, that doesn't mean that the power plant would have the same level of excess capacity.

The problem with calling for the "average" full conversion borg to have a PA level Power Supply, is multi-fold:
1. PA likely are not standardized, each has their own specific power pack optimized for them
2. the "average" borg to me are the highly customized builds and do not exploit standard "model" for a body (Triax, Japan, Russia, and New West have these), and some of the custom builds are also Slave Borgs
3. what to do with a retiring borg
4. off hand I don't recall a borg life span for their nuclear plants, so in that respect they may be exchanging peek performance for a longer life span, possibly even more reliable. Remember if PA pilot is not totally dependent on his suit to survive, a FCB IS, so reliable steady power is going to be of concern

There really ought to be an option to have a more robust power supply installed.

The Japanese (Rifts Japan or Bionics SB in the Japanese section) DO offer such a system that can be either setup as a battery or nuclear option.

[Library Ogre]

Huh. I wonder if you could take a rail gun power pack and use it for one of the Chipwell suits?

[Tor]

I think the main difference is that with most PA the nuclear plant is built in so the main body needs to get destroyed for it to get wrecked.

In this case you'd probably strap your railgun nuke pack on your back and people can target it immediately.

I'm also not clear, even if you could fix it to power a force-field generator built into your non-nuclear PA, if the field would protect the nuclear pack or not. There has to be some kind of radius limit and I'm not sure just how big the power-pack is. They are pretty heavy...

Like what if it was the size of a child? Does that mean people wearing naruni fields can protect a kid by carrying them?

[Kagashi]

I don't hate the Chipwell stuff at all. I even see the merits of such cheap equipment. I would take such a suit at low levels. Once I get more money and/or salvage a better suit then I will upgrade. Rifts is a deadly rpg. Sure if one plays smart and lucky that 50 MDC suit will go a long way. Eventually though it gets outclassed. At high levels it's easy to do close to that kind of damage. I think the description in the Mercenaries book does not help either I think. It kind of goes out of it's way to paint a bleak and bad picture of the Chipwell equipment. Mind you it's similar to Northern Gun where they try and convince a buyer that bigger, bulky and heavier is better. Having talked to people in the army it's anything but.

Agreed. Chipwell does offer some decent stuff for cheap. Their SDC suit is the butt of jokes, but their other stuff is not all that bad, especially when you consider economics of outfitting large groups of personnel.

Lets outfit an armored infantry platoon of 10 men, assume they are all level 1 and have Pilot RPA with Elite:

Chipwell Assault Suits = all ten men with 150 MDC each (combined 1500 MDC) and unlimited 1D6 x 10 multi burst lasers for only 2.5 million credits. These power armor are engineered poorer than average and as a result can only get bonuses to Basic levels.

On that same budget, you can only purchase 2.9 suits...call it 3...of Samson PA for 240 MDC each (combined 720 MDC and 7 unarmored personnel) with 1D6X10 MD railguns with cost inducing limited ammo (they do get mini missiles for extra punch though and their speed on the ground is amazing).

While one Samson can easily out gun, out armor, and out maneuver a single Chipwell Assault Suit, 3 to 1 odds...they will have a tough time. Plus, 7 out of 10 men couldnt even engage and would be nothing but casualties if they did since they would be unarmored. Now if the second group had 8.5 million to spend, obviously you would go with the Samsons, but not everybody has unlimited budget.

[Tor]

Added bonus: even though you can't get Elite PA bonuses, this does mean you can save the cost/time of training people to elite levels and take advantage of any random merc or civilian with basic capabilities. It's not feasible for people to have Elite in a large variety of stuff which minimizes the number of candidates to fill your armor.

Another thing: the flip/throw maneuver critical to stun-locking enemies in HtH combat don't get any better on the elite level, so you're mainly losing out on a melee attack and + to parry/strike (and I'm not even sure if strike bonuses apply to body-flip). Added bonus: PA Elite's body flip only works in Battloid mode, PA Basic's flip has no such limitation.

I guess if you wanted to block/ram/tackle Elite does better damage and has higher chance of knockdown... but I'd rather take the sure thing (body flip) especially since it only takes 1 attack (tackle with PA takes 2). If I wanted to employ tacklers I'd have a soldier in body armor spend an OCC related on Wrestling since their takedown is guaranteed and only takes 1 attack. Only downside is no MD but you can have other soldiers worry about that while you focus on the double-legs.

[Nightmask]

I don't hate the Chipwell stuff at all. I even see the merits of such cheap equipment. I would take such a suit at low levels. Once I get more money and/or salvage a better suit then I will upgrade. Rifts is a deadly rpg. Sure if one plays smart and lucky that 50 MDC suit will go a long way. Eventually though it gets outclassed. At high levels it's easy to do close to that kind of damage. I think the description in the Mercenaries book does not help either I think. It kind of goes out of it's way to paint a bleak and bad picture of the Chipwell equipment. Mind you it's similar to Northern Gun where they try and convince a buyer that bigger, bulky and heavier is better. Having talked to people in the army it's anything but.

Agreed. Chipwell does offer some decent stuff for cheap. Their SDC suit is the butt of jokes, but their other stuff is not all that bad, especially when you consider economics of outfitting large groups of personnel.

Lets outfit an armored infantry platoon of 10 men, assume they are all level 1 and have Pilot RPA with Elite:

Chipwell Assault Suits = all ten men with 150 MDC each (combined 1500 MDC) and unlimited 1D6 x 10 multi burst lasers for only 2.5 million credits. These power armor are engineered poorer than average and as a result can only get bonuses to Basic levels.

On that same budget, you can only purchase 2.9 suits...call it 3...of Samson PA for 240 MDC each (combined 720 MDC and 7 unarmored personnel) with 1D6X10 MD railguns with cost inducing limited ammo (they do get mini missiles for extra punch though and their speed on the ground is amazing).

While one Samson can easily out gun, out armor, and out maneuver a single Chipwell Assault Suit, 3 to 1 odds...they will have a tough time. Plus, 7 out of 10 men couldnt even engage and would be nothing but casualties if they did since they would be unarmored. Now if the second group had 8.5 million to spend, obviously you would go with the Samsons, but not everybody has unlimited budget.

Unless they've done a 'stealth retcon' regarding the Chipwell suits I've seen nothing that they're actually subjected to any penalties to use such as being restricted only to the bonuses of basic piloting/combat skill. So other than being told we're supposed to consider them poor quality deathtraps in the fluff the actual game material (again, unless they've slipped in some rewrite I haven't seen) doesn't support that. They've no combat penalties, no penalties on sensor range, no penalties at all other than what you could consider for the Warmonger since it's actually a high SDC suit that can be harmed by SDC weapons as well as MDC.

[Tor]

I've a third printing, you have earlier Night?

Unless they've done a 'stealth retcon' regarding the Chipwell suits I've seen nothing that they're actually subjected to any penalties to use such as being restricted only to the bonuses of basic piloting/combat skill.

It has to do with it mentioning on PA basic for them while for other stuff like the Naruni Knight it leaves it open-ended, presumably implying we can use elite, although it does lack that 'equal to elite except as follows' text some other suits have had.

So other than being told we're supposed to consider them poor quality deathtraps in the fluff the actual game material (again, unless they've slipped in some rewrite I haven't seen) doesn't support that. They've no combat penalties, no penalties on sensor range, no penalties at all other than what you could consider for the Warmonger since it's actually a high SDC suit that can be harmed by SDC weapons as well as MDC.

The Warmonger is the most penalize but page 143 applies to all three suits:

"Chipwell suits do have not all the features describes in Rifts p 211"

"Among other things, the range of both radar and targeting computers is usually lower than average, ranging from 1 to 5 miles instead of the customary 10 mile range."

The wording means it's not mandatory though. Although they don't have all the features, which ones they are lacking is left vague and up to GM decision. The "usually" for radar/targeting means reducing the 10 mile to 1 or 5 is optional. GM has to nerf SOMETHING though, it must have at least 1 feature compromised. What and to what degree is the issue of how severe a handicap that is.

[kaid]

I don't hate the Chipwell stuff at all. I even see the merits of such cheap equipment. I would take such a suit at low levels. Once I get more money and/or salvage a better suit then I will upgrade. Rifts is a deadly rpg. Sure if one plays smart and lucky that 50 MDC suit will go a long way. Eventually though it gets outclassed. At high levels it's easy to do close to that kind of damage. I think the description in the Mercenaries book does not help either I think. It kind of goes out of it's way to paint a bleak and bad picture of the Chipwell equipment. Mind you it's similar to Northern Gun where they try and convince a buyer that bigger, bulky and heavier is better. Having talked to people in the army it's anything but.

Agreed. Chipwell does offer some decent stuff for cheap. Their SDC suit is the butt of jokes, but their other stuff is not all that bad, especially when you consider economics of outfitting large groups of personnel.

Lets outfit an armored infantry platoon of 10 men, assume they are all level 1 and have Pilot RPA with Elite:

Chipwell Assault Suits = all ten men with 150 MDC each (combined 1500 MDC) and unlimited 1D6 x 10 multi burst lasers for only 2.5 million credits. These power armor are engineered poorer than average and as a result can only get bonuses to Basic levels.

On that same budget, you can only purchase 2.9 suits...call it 3...of Samson PA for 240 MDC each (combined 720 MDC and 7 unarmored personnel) with 1D6X10 MD railguns with cost inducing limited ammo (they do get mini missiles for extra punch though and their speed on the ground is amazing).

While one Samson can easily out gun, out armor, and out maneuver a single Chipwell Assault Suit, 3 to 1 odds...they will have a tough time. Plus, 7 out of 10 men couldnt even engage and would be nothing but casualties if they did since they would be unarmored. Now if the second group had 8.5 million to spend, obviously you would go with the Samsons, but not everybody has unlimited budget.

The biggest issue with chipwell suits is most lack endurance using less sophisticated battery packs. They are still more than fine for defensive usages such as militia guarding a town or a base. They are not ideal for adventurers simply because most adventures are going to wind up with you out in the middle of nowhere where recharging the suits may become problematic. But if you are a town/settlement on a budget getting 10 units of reasonable power armor plus some weapons for them or 3 of a higher quality armor most would probably go for the 10 units. Quantity does have a quality of its own and for an impressing the local rubes any power armor is scary and the more of it you have the more powerful you appear to the vast majority of people you bump into.


The chipwell armors do lack some of the standard features of other power armor and tend to have lower grade optics, communications, radar suites. That is all stuff that could be upgrades if wanted/needed and for the standard usage of such armor in a defensive setting the limitations are not that big of a deal because you probably have a more capable radar unit covering the town/base it could get data from and long range communications would be a limited issue in a city/town environment.

[Nightmask]

I don't hate the Chipwell stuff at all. I even see the merits of such cheap equipment. I would take such a suit at low levels. Once I get more money and/or salvage a better suit then I will upgrade. Rifts is a deadly rpg. Sure if one plays smart and lucky that 50 MDC suit will go a long way. Eventually though it gets outclassed. At high levels it's easy to do close to that kind of damage. I think the description in the Mercenaries book does not help either I think. It kind of goes out of it's way to paint a bleak and bad picture of the Chipwell equipment. Mind you it's similar to Northern Gun where they try and convince a buyer that bigger, bulky and heavier is better. Having talked to people in the army it's anything but.

Agreed. Chipwell does offer some decent stuff for cheap. Their SDC suit is the butt of jokes, but their other stuff is not all that bad, especially when you consider economics of outfitting large groups of personnel.

Lets outfit an armored infantry platoon of 10 men, assume they are all level 1 and have Pilot RPA with Elite:

Chipwell Assault Suits = all ten men with 150 MDC each (combined 1500 MDC) and unlimited 1D6 x 10 multi burst lasers for only 2.5 million credits. These power armor are engineered poorer than average and as a result can only get bonuses to Basic levels.

On that same budget, you can only purchase 2.9 suits...call it 3...of Samson PA for 240 MDC each (combined 720 MDC and 7 unarmored personnel) with 1D6X10 MD railguns with cost inducing limited ammo (they do get mini missiles for extra punch though and their speed on the ground is amazing).

While one Samson can easily out gun, out armor, and out maneuver a single Chipwell Assault Suit, 3 to 1 odds...they will have a tough time. Plus, 7 out of 10 men couldnt even engage and would be nothing but casualties if they did since they would be unarmored. Now if the second group had 8.5 million to spend, obviously you would go with the Samsons, but not everybody has unlimited budget.

The biggest issue with chipwell suits is most lack endurance using less sophisticated battery packs. They are still more than fine for defensive usages such as militia guarding a town or a base. They are not ideal for adventurers simply because most adventures are going to wind up with you out in the middle of nowhere where recharging the suits may become problematic. But if you are a town/settlement on a budget getting 10 units of reasonable power armor plus some weapons for them or 3 of a higher quality armor most would probably go for the 10 units. Quantity does have a quality of its own and for an impressing the local rubes any power armor is scary and the more of it you have the more powerful you appear to the vast majority of people you bump into.


The chipwell armors do lack some of the standard features of other power armor and tend to have lower grade optics, communications, radar suites. That is all stuff that could be upgrades if wanted/needed and for the standard usage of such armor in a defensive setting the limitations are not that big of a deal because you probably have a more capable radar unit covering the town/base it could get data from and long range communications would be a limited issue in a city/town environment.

You're going to have to point to what those features are, since I can't find anything in my books that says Chipwell armors lack any of the standard features of other power armors or have lower grade sensors with inferior qualities or range. The only lack is in the Warmonger due to being an SDC armor that has to worry about SDC as well as MDC attacks. The fluff may say that they're supposed to be inferior in those regards but the actual stats on the armors says otherwise.

[kaid]

I just checked out my rifts mercenaries again last night. The lead up to chipwell armors states specifically that they do not automatically have all the normal default features of power armor. When looking at the write ups the first armor the challenger which is honestly my fave of their line for just basic power armor for cheapest cost has listed for sensors/optics as only nightvision, laser distance finder and short range radio. So that armor is utterly lacking any radar at all which is a pretty major feature omission and also missing a lot of the other normal default optics.

The second armor actually does not list any optics or sensors at all in my first edition mercs book. At this point it would be a GM call if it has anything even night vision since the start of the section explicitly states they do not automatically come with the normal power armor base set of stuff so if its not actually listed it cannot be assumed to possess it.


The warmonger is their SDC set. This set has a very limited sensor set similar to the challenger night vision/laser distance finder/short range radio. It does not seem to list any radar built in and is not even fully environmentally sealed.

So yes all three of the units listed in mercenaries have limited sensor sets compared to normal power armor to potentially no sensors on the assault armor since none are listed. I will poke around in my GMG tonight see if there are any changes to the sensors listed for the assault armor as that may be a first edition errata oopsie for the assault power armor.

[kaid]

double checked merc ops the anti vampire chipwell armor has the same basic optic package the other units from merc ops do laser range finder, passive night vision, telescopic and polarized with a short range radio and no radar.

The flying chipwell armor is pretty much their most advanced capability wise it actually has a basic radar suite and a compass and a short range radio with a 20 mile range.


The basic optics are not really to bad but the lack of radar on all but one of their units and lack of the long range directional radio other power armors come standard with does limit their usefulness away from a base. In a base defense type usage most of their limitations are minimized.

[Library Ogre]

Of course, if you can't fly, what good is radar to you anyway.

"Oh, look. Ground clutter. I would've never imagined."

[kaid]

Its fairly useful for tracking inbound missiles and threats above the tree line which is pretty much what ground based radar is used for currently.

The main point was there was some debate over if chipwell was lacking in sensors and basic features or not and from the descriptions in the book its pretty clear there are some major omissions such as lack of radar on all but one model/no targeting computers/short range radio only.

If radar was not usable on power armor then I sort of doubt it would be a default feature of power armor from every other maker but chipwell.

[Tor]

I can't find anything in my books that says Chipwell armors lack any of the standard features of other power armors or have lower grade sensors with inferior qualities or range.

Starting to think Nightmask has me on ignore or something.

Actually it does state this at the end of page 143, it's easy to miss, I didn't notice it until this week while reviewing them again. Basically it just has less range on the radar and targetting computers. It does say "usually" though and gives a range from 1/10 to 1/2 so I'm not sure specifically what we should use. That said: these are features not available in most body armor, so it's only compared to other power-armor suits where they fall a bit short.

The CAI-50 and the CAS-30 have no other limits listed besides the radar/targetting. The CAI-50 in particularly explicitly says it has telescopic/nightvision/polarization and radio. Not sure if the CAS has that.

If someone wants to post Mercs 143 to him?

[Subjugator]

I can't find anything in my books that says Chipwell armors lack any of the standard features of other power armors or have lower grade sensors with inferior qualities or range.

Starting to think Nightmask has me on ignore or something.

Actually it does state this at the end of page 143, it's easy to miss, I didn't notice it until this week while reviewing them again. Basically it just has less range on the radar and targetting computers. It does say "usually" though and gives a range from 1/10 to 1/2 so I'm not sure specifically what we should use. That said: these are features not available in most body armor, so it's only compared to other power-armor suits where they fall a bit short.

The CAI-50 and the CAS-30 have no other limits listed besides the radar/targetting. The CAI-50 in particularly explicitly says it has telescopic/nightvision/polarization and radio. Not sure if the CAS has that.

If someone wants to post Mercs 143 to him?

Just in case he has you ignored, here it is Nightmask.

[kaid]

One interesting thing to note though is all but two of the chipwell designs explicitly state what sensors the armor has as laser distance finder/polarization, passive night vision, telescopic and also specifically state they possess no other sensors. So basically it leaves one armor that may or may not have it because the description simply does not mention it and the flying unit which does have a limited radar/targeting computer.

That said even with those limitations they have a competent set of optics for what most people would want/need and in any kind of defensive setting what gaps in abilities they do have would easily be covered by stationary units or from other armored units/vehicles. Really the flying armor is pretty amazing for what you get for 164k and the challenger and assault suit and vampire suit are all perfectly good options for what they are designed to do if one understands their limitations.

[Tor]

I remember a while back I had come across this and was wanting to mention it but had forgotten by the time I made the thread.

Mutants in Orbit page 70-71 has the "CAN Hard Suit" power armor. It has a nuclear power system. It also mentions a 6-hour battery pack comes with it that is rechargeable, which confuses me, as I am not sure what the battery pack is for. I guess powering other things you would use in space?

The price of this is in IOUs so it is hard to do a direct credit comparison, much like with Three Galaxies credits. The setting also makes it unlikely the cheapness will come into play.

But in some ways you get a sense that IOUs and credits are roughly on the same level. Glitter Boys are 25 million creds in Rifts, they range from 15 to 25 to 45 million in MiO's variants, with a competetive Mikato coming in at 59, so it seems similar to Rifts. Looking to weapons on page 88, a 2D6 MD laser pistol is 3000/200 though for gun/clip, which is roughly 1/10 what you'd think it ought to be in Rifts, so I'm not sure.

If 35 000 IOUs = 35 000 credits, that's the best nuclear PA deal you'd ever find. But even if it was 350 000 credits... that's still very competetive. The CAN-7V has decent MDC and is well on par with the Chipwell Assault Suit or the Terrain Hopper in terms of finding an affordable nuclear PA to host a regenerating force field.

Not to mention you can reduce this to 20 000 IOUs (lessay 200 000 credits) if you're willing to take 62 MDC protection, which is still better than a Warmonger.

It also has the major benefit, rather than providing a fixed strength/speed, of actually behaving more like an exoskeleton (even though it is technically PA so I think you could use the PA hand to hand skill bonuses) in that it adds to PS/PP and multiplies speed. This may not be the best for physically unfit pilots, but it is a huge advantage for enhanced pilots.

Of course, if you can't fly, what good is radar to you anyway.

"Oh, look. Ground clutter. I would've never imagined."

Couldn't ground-bound power armor climb to the top of a hill/tree/building (or do a power-leap) and get enough height to scope things out a bit better?

[ShadowLogan]

Of course, if you can't fly, what good is radar to you anyway.

"Oh, look. Ground clutter. I would've never imagined."

Surface Radar exists, so you could monitor/track flying threats (unlikely being used for weather monitoring).

Automakers have put (millimetre wave-class) radar in cars for use by drivers for safer driving.

Police use(d) radar for determining speeds.

[Library Ogre]

Of course, if you can't fly, what good is radar to you anyway.

"Oh, look. Ground clutter. I would've never imagined."

Couldn't ground-bound power armor climb to the top of a hill/tree/building (or do a power-leap) and get enough height to scope things out a bit better?

Not terribly. Don't get me wrong, it can still be useful for air defense, but it's not going to tell you that there's several large creatures approaching at ground level, even if it will warn you of incoming dragons.

Surface Radar exists, so you could monitor/track flying threats (unlikely being used for weather monitoring).

Automakers have put (millimetre wave-class) radar in cars for use by drivers for safer driving.

Police use(d) radar for determining speeds.

Yeah, but these are very different uses than how the tactical radar of Palladium is implied to work.

Surface radar tracking flying threats, sure. Excellent use, though you're going to run into problem with low-flying PA. The automotive radar is collision detection at close range... it will tell you you're about to run into a building, but won't give you enough time to react to a missile. And police radar is LOS, and certainly not OTH.

[Jorick]

Yeah, but these are very different uses than how the tactical radar of Palladium is implied to work.

Surface radar tracking flying threats, sure. Excellent use, though you're going to run into problem with low-flying PA. The automotive radar is collision detection at close range... it will tell you you're about to run into a building, but won't give you enough time to react to a missile. And police radar is LOS, and certainly not OTH.

Not to go too far off topic, but radar is just radio waves (micro waves/other electromagnetic waves) going through things, whether it's air or any other material. Even today, radar can be used to identify objects under ground. Processing the signal with a computer allows for "noise" cancellation. It's not just analog blips from a reflection. Add some future sci-fi imagination magic and I don't think it's at all a stretch to say the uses presented in the Rifts (like the Quatoria, for example) are reasonable. So long as the object is moving, no matter what it's moving through, or is different in composition from it's surroundings, it can be clearly visible.

[Blue_Lion]

Of course, if you can't fly, what good is radar to you anyway.

"Oh, look. Ground clutter. I would've never imagined."

Surface Radar exists, so you could monitor/track flying threats (unlikely being used for weather monitoring).

Automakers have put (millimetre wave-class) radar in cars for use by drivers for safer driving.

Police use(d) radar for determining speeds.

Ground unit radar can track air. Original radar was a ground based detection system for radar.
Ground clutter is why by default most radar in rifts can not track surface targets.

The cheapest PA is any that is part of your staring equipment.

[Tor]

Starting equipment still has a cost, a value. Even if your character received it as a gift as a kid or whatever, someone still originally bought it or manufactured it.

A cost must exist for something for it to be considered, we are weighing the market value not how much someone paid to get something. A Triax Devastator would be super-cheap if you stole one, or if an Operator chose it as starting equipment, but it still has an estimated black market cost.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Starting equipment still has a cost, a value. Even if your character received it as a gift as a kid or whatever, someone still originally bought it or manufactured it.

in a world where the Conjurer O.C.C exists, that is not necessarily true.

[Tor]

True, but the value of temporary things is also kinda temporary, more of a service than a good, plus unless they can conjure uranium...

[Nekira Sudacne]

True, but the value of temporary things is also kinda temporary, more of a service than a good, plus unless they can conjure uranium...

Conjurer's can make the things they make permanent at sixth level.

Also, they can conjurer uranium, or any element they care to as long as it weighs sixty pounds or less. The only restriction is they can't make machines with more than a few simple moving parts. "A pile of uranium" is trivial. Likewise 60 pounds of gold is equally trivial.

[Tor]

Permanent PPE expenditure is a cost though, albeit one I don't know how to assign a credit amount to.

This is reminding me of prior discussion about conjurers making gantrium to construct those Tolkeen Rings out of.

What about 60 pounds of C4? Like the kind you can buy in Rifts Mercs? Thought I recall something like 'no explosives' and I dunno how complex they are.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Permanent PPE expenditure is a cost though, albeit one I don't know how to assign a credit amount to.

depends on the individual doing it, I would thing, some might give a few permanent things away as gifts, though it is true it's a limited resource.

This is reminding me of prior discussion about conjurers making gantrium to construct those Tolkeen Rings out of.

I would rule a conjurer has to be familiar with a thing to make it, like they can't make an alien element or compound unless they have personally had a chance to examine it. but there's no reason that given enough time to study they couldn't make more.

Mind, the gantirum is just the required material, the process needed to turn raw gantirum into a ring of elder would also need to be discovered. Like, you can make a ring of it, but you can't enchant a ring of elder unless you know the secret.

What about 60 pounds of C4? Like the kind you can buy in Rifts Mercs? Thought I recall something like 'no explosives' and I dunno how complex they are.

It's a bit of a grey area. they cannot make grenades or rockets explictly, but they can make black powder guns and ammunition, and black powder is an explosive if concentrated. so while they couldn't make, say, a fusion block, a keg of black powder would be doable, but wouldn't deal more than 1 or 2 points of MD.