Why I Like Rifts

[Subjugator]

This should really be entitled, 'Why I Love Rifts' (particularly after I started thinking about it), but I'd already said I'd call it 'Why I Like Rifts', so here goes:

There are a lot of criticisms about Rifts out there, and a whole lot of them revolve around power level. The funny thing is, I think the complaints about the power level fall rather flat, since in the hands of a good GM and players, the power levels of Rifts actually reduce the importance of power.

When a game of Rifts is being run by a good GM, power levels can be different for each player...even significantly so...and it's not NEARLY as relevant as it is in other games.

Imagine a D&D game with a group of level 5 characters taking a level 1 character into their team as a full member. That level 1 character is not going to be able to contribute as much to the team as they should. A level 1 fighter will not be able to reliably hit the AC of a level CR5 creature and/or will not do enough damage when they hit the creature to make as much of a combat difference as is desirable. Similarly, a level 1 rogue will not be able to pick the locks, disable the traps, or avoid the damage that a level 5 party would encounter. The same pattern follows for clerics, mages, and so on.

Imagine a Rifts game with a group of level 5 characters taking a level 1 character into their team as a full member. Whether that player is a Headhunter (very good in combat), a Rogue Scholar (comparatively weak in combat), or an Undead Slayer (incredibly good in combat), they can contribute to the team sufficiently to add value, in addition to not necessarily being at a colossal risk of death. Don't compare the level Rogue Scholar to the level 5 Glitter Boy in combat to determine their utility. Compare the level 1 Rogue Scholar to the level 5 Rogue Scholar in utility. A Rogue Scholar's primary utility comes from things other than combat; they *can* fight, but their primary utility comes from skills and knowledge. Will a level 1 Rogue Scholar be as good as a level 5 Rogue Scholar? Nope! ...but they'll be an effective member of the team, and that's the idea!

So because of this, you can have a Rogue Scholar in the same team as a Glitter Boy and it can work just fine.

The GB and other fighters handles the fighting, but when it comes to deciding what something is or if it is dangerous, you use the scholar.

When it comes to introducing yourselves to a town, it's the Cyber Knight who steps in...they're widely known as protectors of the weak and defenders of what is good and right (Sir Raoul Lazarious be damned!)!

When it comes to helping the town fix its problems of not being able to fight off random monsters, the fighting types could teach them to defend themselves...or it could be the TW making them some weapons or the Operator giving them the ability to recharge their e-clips themselves!

If you *really* want to get in good with the town, it's not the fighting men or the Operator/TW that'll help you, but the Rogue Scholar again, since they'll give the people of the town the best weapon there is: knowledge; they'll teach the town how to make that e-clip recharger, how to make antibiotics, or how to create liquid fuels from charcoal! Giving them a source of hard currency like medicine or fuels will get them to ADORE you.

The CS Grunt is only a private, and since he's only a Grunt he has nothing to offer the town...oh, but his sergeant likes and trusts him and his sergeant is in good with Col. Maxwell! Lo and behold, Col. Maxwell is looking for a new place to put a small base, and this town is just the right place to do so! They love the CS, have no magic, books, or other undesirables (like those filthy D-Bees!), and as an added bonus, other communities nearby look to them for leadership! It's *perfect*!

Or maybe one of the players is a trade rep from Northern Gun and this is just the place to use as a stop on a distribution route (and yes, I will be using my massive clout with Northern Gun if I should ever have the opportunity and inclination to help a town...no use in being an executive with Northern Gun if you never use it...yes, membership has its privileges!). Alternately, if the town mistreats the players, it could be placed under a trade embargo by Northern Gun, and any merc group that uses it as a base gets locked out as well. I bet letters of apology would be issued very quickly!

Did you say there's a missing child? Well, one of the party is psychic and has Object Read, so he can find that kid! Oh no! The kid's fallen down a well, it's too small for anyone to fit and go get him, and he's not strong enough to hold the rope lowered to him?! Well, don't worry - the Mind Melter has telekinesis and can pull him out anyway!

Vampires are threatening the town? Don't worry - there's a super with Alter Physical Structure: Water! He can get in, waste 'em, and get out without an issue! There's also a water Warlock, and what a water elemental can do to a vampire shouldn't happen to Al Qaeda! A

huge boulder is blocking the road? The dragon can move it without issue!

The problems given in these examples do not require that any of the characters that are providing the solution to the problem be anything other than first level (a possible exception is the water Warlock - I don't have my books handy and don't really play them...I think they can summon elementals at level 1, but am not sure). The person or people providing the solution could be level 1 with the rest of the party being level 5 or 10, or they could be level 5 or 10 with the rest of the party being level 1.

This was illustrated to me quite well in one of the Palladium Fantasy games at one of the Open Houses I attended. We were in one of Kev's games and I had the pleasure of playing with a gentleman from Germany whose name escapes me. We had a time limit and had our way blocked by an ogre. I feared we'd run out of time, but rather than waste several rounds fighting the ogre, he simply levitated the ogre out of the way and we ran on past*! Kev cackled with glee at that fantastic solution to the problem and we ended up completing the mission without issue.

A side note: that little tidbit illustrated the true efficacy of spell magic** in Palladium games, and that's when I started appreciating it a lot more than I used to. I used to look at it as brute force combat sort of stuff, and other than a few outstanding items (e.g. annihilate, CoA, and magic net), I found it to be rather lacking. After that happened, I started reading further and found it to be jaw droppingly powerful so long as one gave thoughtful consideration to its use.

So...will every party member be able to do everything? No. As a rule, they can all engage in combat; the Rogue Scholar is 'weak' in combat, but in this case, 'weak' means he's a walking tank...he's just not as powerful as much bigger tank (full conversion Borg) standing next to him. Similarly, not everyone can use levitation, repair weapons, put up a magic shield, make TW items, read minds, move boulders, and so on, but all of them can contribute something to the party.

So in a game of Rifts that is in the hands of a good GM and players, it is not a character's level, class, or combat ability that decides whether or not they can be useful to the party. It is the the people in the game that make the difference.

...and I love that.

/Sub

*I'll be forever grateful to that very nice man for giving me that example. It was a great solution to a problem that I'd initially thought could only be resolved by lengthy combat.

**I already knew circles, runes, tattoos, Nazca lines, summoning spells and such were incredibly powerful (I'm distinguishing between summoning spells and other spells for the purposes of that comment).

[Killer Cyborg]

Excellent post!

I've always maintained that the RMB was a very well-balanced book, because each class had its own advantages and disadvantages.
Take the Dragon and the Vagabond as examples.
The dragon is a MDC creature that breathes Mega-Damage fire, and the Vagabond is a homeless man with a pickup truck and candy.
And yet…
While they're on fairly uneven footing starting out, the Vagabond has a lot more potential in many ways, particularly when it comes to skills.
Dragons could only pick skills from the categories of Communications, Domestic, Military, Pilot, Pilot Related, Rogue, Technical, and Wilderness.
Dragons start with only six skills (and a bonus language, and basic math), and gets a total of eight more skills as they level up.
Vagabonds start off with 10 skills (and a bonus language, and they get an additional 12 skills as they level up. So they have the potential for 23 total skills versus the Dragon's 16.

More importantly, look back over the skill categories that the dragon is restricted to.
The dragon cannot take any Weapon Proficiencies. While he might pick up a gun, he'll never be as accurate with it as a 1st level Vagabond who has the right proficiency. It could be argued that a dragon doesn't NEED a gun… but the highest damage breath weapon was 6d6 MD, and the maximum damage for a laser rifle was 3d6x10 MD from a full-clip burst.
That dragon would probably survive a firefight with a Vagabond who lived well enough to get decent equipment, but he'd sure as heck feel like he'd been in a fight!
Also, notice that dragons couldn't take any Physical skills. That means they couldn't take even HTH Basic. Which means that in the long-run, a Vagabond is likely to end up with more attacks.
Each character could easily have a place in a good adventure, and a good GM can easily write adventures that accommodate these two different classes being in the same party.

[Killer Cyborg]

My own personal complaints about power levels in Rifts aren't about characters, they're about power creep over time, and about discrepancies like hand-held rifles often being far superior to vehicle-mounted weapons.
Both of which can be fixed or compensated for by a good GM, especially if he has good players.

[Razzinold]

My own personal complaints about power levels in Rifts aren't about characters, they're about power creep over time, and about discrepancies like hand-held rifles often being far superior to vehicle-mounted weapons.
Both of which can be fixed or compensated for by a good GM, especially if he has good players.

I agree.

I know a lot of people take the stance of "we shouldn't have to fix the rules, we should just be able to play rules as written".

Now I don't disagree with them on their viewpoint, however we all know that this problem exists so just fix it and move on (or don't play at all) because all the complaining in the world won't change it. Well that is until they listen and fix it

Another point I'd like to add to your Dragon vs Vegabond post is most people won't role play a hatch-ling dragon like they should i.e. similar to the mind of a child, most people play them as themselves. Also unless your GM gives you a totem of handwavium the amount of time you can spend hidden as a human is very limited, at least in the beginning That makes it harder to blend in/not draw attention to yourself whereas your vegabond can go anywhere he pleases, including areas with heavy CS presence, especially if he doesn't have any psionics.

Just avoid school yards while travelling in your hover van and having all that candy, people might get the wrong idea about you.

[Tor]

dragons couldn't take any Physical skills.
That means they couldn't take even HTH Basic.
Which means that in the long-run, a Vagabond is likely to end up with more attacks.

Except for the whole "equal to hand to hand basic + 1" all dragons had.

Vagabond does have the option of going expert/MA/assass tho.

Biggest limit for drags was no way to get paired WP.

Also since the skills they could get never got any bonuses, although not explicitly called secondary skills you could make the argument that this is what they are, and apply equivalent restrictions to them per RMBp23 regarding some being off-limits, such as engineer/bot/demol/MD/acro-box-gym/wrest.

Regarding this assumption: does anyone know if there are any dragon hatchling NPCs out there who have any of these skills which cannot be selected as secondaries? I would consider that happening to disprove my assumption.

Attack-wise dragons are fine since they could select robot/PA piloting (even elite, though IMA elite should not be available as secondary...) although their downside was they would have to get out of them and could not lurk for long periods inside them like humans could, meaning they messed in emergencies.

discrepancies like hand-held rifles often being far superior to vehicle-mounted weapons.

All I can figure is vehicles are mostly designed for range and mobility over damage.

An average human simply couldn't touch the Spider-Skull walker, for example, since if you advanced towards, it could retreat and outpace you to stay on the outer limits of its rail guns. You'd need something to enhance speed like juicing, a vehicle, PA, or jetpack to be able to close the range. Otherwise you'd need a missile launcher to hit it. Even most rail-guns you can buy don't go as far as the Spider's.

Something like the Enforcer or the Titan Combat or Titan Explorer bot could not feasibly catch up the Spider-Skull and would have to rely solely on missiles to deal with the. The Titan Exploration or Titan Reconnaisance could close range but have lighter weapons to deal with it.

Probably better to rely on the cheaper and faster non-robot vehicles to deal with them. Better yet if you have someone driving it for you so you can fire while moving simultaneously. On page 227 the Wastelander/Highway-Man have no passenger space, but do have weapons built into them... but I'm not sure if you can fire WHILE driving or if you have to stop driving and be stationary to use those weapons. Big Boss or Mountaineer could still outpace and are probably more reliable. I guess you figure something like the Sky King (RMBp228) would be able to fire its weapons in flight so maybe the motorcycles can too...

There probably should be some advantage in terms of accuracy when firing stationary though... and some advantages piloting without doing gunfire.

I feel like if you shoot guns while using these vehicles there should be both a penalty to strike and to the piloting skills to reflect the difficulty of multi-tasking. This would be in addition to any penalties incurred shooting a gun from a moving vehicle, because it's one thing to fire a laser from the back of an ATV while not doing anything else and another thing to fire a laser while steering a motorcycle.

Terrain would play a factor in that of course, not so much a factor for a SAMAS or Flying Titan or SkyCycle though, especially since they're even higher-speed. Those 2 are in range of the JA-11 though.

Only feasible threat to a Death's Head in RMB would've been a boom gun or something that fired missiles. It could outpace pretty much anything else and laser you forever with guns that match the Spider's rail, and the Head's rails could go almost as far as as boom gun. With time not being a factor it could do 1-round sniper shots at you for a heck of a long time. They can fly at altitudes exceeding boom gun range so they could simply avoid that as a threat.

RMBp200 is probably one of those cases of printed stats differing from the concept art though. In the art it looks like the top dual railgun is too far back to be able to tilt down 90 degrees... perhaps "up and down at a 90 degree angle" is a total? Meaning 45 up and 45 down? I could buy that. If one of these guys were hovering directly above a GB I don't get the impression they would be able to fire straight down at the GB, and I'm not sure if the GB could fire straight up at them. Being directly above, it seems like the main body would shield you from being able to take a shot at the rail gun, but I guess that would also prevent the rail gun from firing at the GB.

[Killer Cyborg]

Agreed, Razz.

[Killer Cyborg]

dragons couldn't take any Physical skills.
That means they couldn't take even HTH Basic.
Which means that in the long-run, a Vagabond is likely to end up with more attacks.

Except for the whole "equal to hand to hand basic + 1" all dragons had.

Huh.
Now that you mention it, I DO remember that.
I can't seem to find the passage that specifies it, though, which is annoying.

Vagabond does have the option of going expert/MA/assass tho.

Biggest limit for drags was no way to get paired WP.

Also since the skills they could get never got any bonuses,

Good points.

Attack-wise dragons are fine since they could select robot/PA piloting (even elite, though IMA elite should not be available as secondary...) although their downside was they would have to get out of them and could not lurk for long periods inside them like humans could, meaning they messed in emergencies.

Yeah, I always thought that was a bit odd. The rules for who could or could not take the Robot Pilot/Combat skills were a bit weird in the RMB, but technically there is no stated restriction to the Pilot Skills that a dragon could take.

discrepancies like hand-held rifles often being far superior to vehicle-mounted weapons.

All I can figure is vehicles are mostly designed for range and mobility over damage.

An average human simply couldn't touch the Spider-Skull walker, for example, since if you advanced towards, it could retreat and outpace you to stay on the outer limits of its rail guns. You'd need something to enhance speed like juicing, a vehicle, PA, or jetpack to be able to close the range. Otherwise you'd need a missile launcher to hit it. Even most rail-guns you can buy don't go as far as the Spider's.

As far as the rail guns go, yes.
But the Skull Walker's laser turrets had a range of 4,000', which isn't extraordinary, although it is as good as ranges got for lasers in the RMB.
The damage from a dual blast was good (6d6 MD), but not great when compared to the Wilk's 457's 1d6x10 MD pulse setting.
If the Skull Walker replaced those laser turrets with the laser component from a JA-11, they could match the range, and a dual-shot would do 8d6 MD.
If they used the lasers from a JA-9, they could match the range as well. They'd only do 4d6 MD per dual blast, but since their lasers were now burst capable they could fire dual short bursts for something like 8d6 MD, dual long bursts for something like 4d6x10 MD, or a dual full-clip burst for around 4d6x10 MD, rivaling the big rail guns on the vehicle.

Moreover, using JA-9 style lasers, they could Spray areas, which seems particularly useful for an assault/scout vehicle.
Twin JA-9 lasers could hose down groups of enemies, hitting 1d4 targets for 4d6 MD each. Against SDC geared bandits and/or D-Bees, the ability to spray multiple targets with laser-fire would make battles go a lot faster. Same with lightly armored MDC foes.

Probably better to rely on the cheaper and faster non-robot vehicles to deal with them. Better yet if you have someone driving it for you so you can fire while moving simultaneously.

I think that jetpacks would work pretty well.

[ShadowLogan]

My own personal complaints about power levels in Rifts aren't about characters, they're about power creep over time, and about discrepancies like hand-held rifles often being far superior to vehicle-mounted weapons.
Both of which can be fixed or compensated for by a good GM, especially if he has good players.

I don't think Rifts is subject to Power Creep in those areas though KC. The problem isn't that power is creeping in, its that the systems is skewered to favor a certain end of the equipment spectrum.

Rifts doesn't have a standard level of power, because by the nature of the setting it can't have Power Creep in certain areas (Skill or "rectons" can be) as the setting is setup to have widely varying levels of power. Chi-Town is more advanced than FQ overall, but Triax is more advanced than them, and Atlantis is even more so, etc.

[Subjugator]

Excellent post!

I've always maintained that the RMB was a very well-balanced book, because each class had its own advantages and disadvantages.
Take the Dragon and the Vagabond as examples.
The dragon is a MDC creature that breathes Mega-Damage fire, and the Vagabond is a homeless man with a pickup truck and candy.
And yet…
While they're on fairly uneven footing starting out, the Vagabond has a lot more potential in many ways, particularly when it comes to skills.
Dragons could only pick skills from the categories of Communications, Domestic, Military, Pilot, Pilot Related, Rogue, Technical, and Wilderness.
Dragons start with only six skills (and a bonus language, and basic math), and gets a total of eight more skills as they level up.
Vagabonds start off with 10 skills (and a bonus language, and they get an additional 12 skills as they level up. So they have the potential for 23 total skills versus the Dragon's 16.

More importantly, look back over the skill categories that the dragon is restricted to.
The dragon cannot take any Weapon Proficiencies. While he might pick up a gun, he'll never be as accurate with it as a 1st level Vagabond who has the right proficiency. It could be argued that a dragon doesn't NEED a gun… but the highest damage breath weapon was 6d6 MD, and the maximum damage for a laser rifle was 3d6x10 MD from a full-clip burst.
That dragon would probably survive a firefight with a Vagabond who lived well enough to get decent equipment, but he'd sure as heck feel like he'd been in a fight!
Also, notice that dragons couldn't take any Physical skills. That means they couldn't take even HTH Basic. Which means that in the long-run, a Vagabond is likely to end up with more attacks.
Each character could easily have a place in a good adventure, and a good GM can easily write adventures that accommodate these two different classes being in the same party.

Technically, dragons can take HTH dragon, now.

I also wish the vehicles would be bumped up in some way. I sort of like the idea of scaling MD.

/Sub

[Killer Cyborg]

Technically, dragons can take HTH dragon, now.

They even have their own style, too! Which is good.
But the point was that the RMB was very well balanced, as far as character classes go.

I also wish the vehicles would be bumped up in some way. I sort of like the idea of scaling MD.
/Sub

Dragons have a natural advantage when it comes to scaling.

[Killer Cyborg]

My own personal complaints about power levels in Rifts aren't about characters, they're about power creep over time, and about discrepancies like hand-held rifles often being far superior to vehicle-mounted weapons.
Both of which can be fixed or compensated for by a good GM, especially if he has good players.

I don't think Rifts is subject to Power Creep in those areas though KC. The problem isn't that power is creeping in, its that the systems is skewered to favor a certain end of the equipment spectrum.

It's both.

Rifts doesn't have a standard level of power, because by the nature of the setting it can't have Power Creep in certain areas (Skill or "rectons" can be) as the setting is setup to have widely varying levels of power. Chi-Town is more advanced than FQ overall, but Triax is more advanced than them, and Atlantis is even more so, etc.

Right.
Atlantis is so technologically advanced, that the Kittani energy rifles do about 1d6 more damage than their RMB equivalent!

Which puts them somewhere under the New West equipment.

[Sureshot]

I like the whole apocalyptic feel to the world and background. Of course it's not so much now. Yet when Rifts first came out their was a definite humanity getting back on it's feet after a long dark age and near extinction. The ability to port in character from various PB rpg is a definite plus for me as well. The art at least the early art was also what attracted me. As for the hand held and vehicle damage discrepancy. I think it's because Kevin realized how deadly the rpg could be to players. Then decided to alter the damage values in favor of player survivability. There is no real in game reason for hand held weapons being more powerful. A team can and should with the right teamwork and patience take out a robot or vehicle easy. A lone character should be dead or heavily injured imo.

[Tor]

can't seem to find the passage that specifies it, though, which is annoying.

It's not under the general overview of their skills but rather, reprinted separately under each species right at the end before the lifespan and the next dragon description begins.

I think that jetpacks would work pretty well.

I got the impression you had to go "Rocketeer" with those and have both hands occupied with maneuvering so that you couldn't fire a weapon while operating one. Seem like the type to have to stop/start and fire stationary while opponent closed range and then once they got close enough to attack you, holster-weapon and flee again.

Makes me wonder... you can holster a pistol easy enough but operating a jet-pack would make it kinda tricky to carry a rifle. I guess you could manage it but it'd be a little ungainly and swingy.

Dragons have a natural advantage when it comes to scaling.

Most of them anyway.

Atlantis is so technologically advanced, that the Kittani energy rifles do about 1d6 more damage than their RMB equivalent! Which puts them somewhere under the New West equipment.

You know the Kittani are all about the range and self-regenerating energy cores. Dat lance. Only laser like it's on a Death's Head by gosh.

[Killer Cyborg]

can't seem to find the passage that specifies it, though, which is annoying.

It's not under the general overview of their skills but rather, reprinted separately under each species right at the end before the lifespan and the next dragon description begins.

Bingo! That's one mental itch scratched!

I think that jetpacks would work pretty well.

I got the impression you had to go "Rocketeer" with those and have both hands occupied with maneuvering so that you couldn't fire a weapon while operating one. Seem like the type to have to stop/start and fire stationary while opponent closed range and then once they got close enough to attack you, holster-weapon and flee again.

Makes me wonder... you can holster a pistol easy enough but operating a jet-pack would make it kinda tricky to carry a rifle. I guess you could manage it but it'd be a little ungainly and swingy.

I've never been sure how they steer, but going Rocketeer, you just fly to the top of the Skull Walker, then start blasting your way in.

[Razzinold]

I like the whole apocalyptic feel to the world and background. Of course it's not so much now. Yet when Rifts first came out their was a definite humanity getting back on it's feet after a long dark age and near extinction. The ability to port in character from various PB rpg is a definite plus for me as well. The art at least the early art was also what attracted me. As for the hand held and vehicle damage discrepancy. I think it's because Kevin realized how deadly the rpg could be to players. Then decided to alter the damage values in favor of player survivability. There is no real in game reason for hand held weapons being more powerful. A team can and should with the right teamwork and patience take out a robot or vehicle easy. A lone character should be dead or heavily injured imo.

my self as well.

I've always loved movies like Mad Max or novels like Death Lands, the gritty nature of the world everyone scarping together whatever they can to survive.

I usually avoid 'modern' cities in my game, my world goes from barren wasteland to a frontier town like setting in the old west. My players come across a town/city now and again that isn't in as rough shape as that but I keep them spread out so they really get that desperation/isolation feeling.

[Tor]

going Rocketeer, you just fly to the top of the Skull Walker, then start blasting your way in.

In theory yes, although Palladium has always had some rule problems regarding how much of a target people climbing on bots are.

Even if it can't grab you or shoot you, since it's still a (non-hand-to-hand) bot with legs, it might be able to do a barrel roll (count as a body block?) and then stomp the passenger.

[Bood Samel]

I mostly like to GM more then anything and for that rifts is great because it can be anything. You have a ton to work with and can play every angle you can think of. I actually don't have any issue with the system though I wouldn't recommend it to new players.

[Killer Cyborg]

going Rocketeer, you just fly to the top of the Skull Walker, then start blasting your way in.

In theory yes, although Palladium has always had some rule problems regarding how much of a target people climbing on bots are.

Even if it can't grab you or shoot you, since it's still a (non-hand-to-hand) bot with legs, it might be able to do a barrel roll (count as a body block?) and then stomp the passenger.

lol
I think that'd take one HECK of a piloting check!

[flatline]

I like Rifts Earth because there are so many compelling elements in the setting.

Much of the system doesn't appeal to me, but I'm too lazy to port the setting to a system I like better. I'm content, for now at least, to house-rule over the more offending bits. On the plus side, adding bonuses and such to a d20 is great practice for the little man. He is far more comfortable with his 1st grade math as a result.

I keep telling myself that if I ever get a serious group again, I'll port Rifts and Wormwood over to FUDGE or something.

--flatline

[jaymz]

Why I like Rifts?

The potential to do and be anything. I can fix the rest as I need too if/when necessary.

[Arakash]

I also want to add in support of a few posters here who have already mentioned the setting/universe/theme as a highlight for Rifts.

I have no particular attachment to any part of the combat/stat system but I do enjoy many parts of the Setting of Rifts. A couple of highlights for me:
- Most memorable for me is the huge(almost unique) diversity in the setting.
- I like the huge differences in tech, magic and even way of life you can find by traveling between even nearby communities in Rifts.
- I like the violent, dark and pragmatic nature of the setting compared to your standard fantasy fare. I find it helps me better RP the characters i play.
- I really enjoy thinking about how people or nations survive in the violent and dangerous setting.

[Zer0 Kay]

Flexibility, depth, the GM fiat, the flavor, the ability given to the GM to be able to balance a group with a Cosmo knight, dragon and vagabond. The ability of the gm to turn a munchkin into fodder while the role player makes it through.

[GoblynByte]

Imagine a D&D game with a group of level 5 characters taking a level 1 character into their team as a full member. That level 1 character is not going to be able to contribute as much to the team as they should. A level 1 fighter will not be able to reliably hit the AC of a level CR5 creature and/or will not do enough damage when they hit the creature to make as much of a combat difference as is desirable. Similarly, a level 1 rogue will not be able to pick the locks, disable the traps, or avoid the damage that a level 5 party would encounter. The same pattern follows for clerics, mages, and so on.

Imagine a Rifts game with a group of level 5 characters taking a level 1 character into their team as a full member. Whether that player is a Headhunter (very good in combat), a Rogue Scholar (comparatively weak in combat), or an Undead Slayer (incredibly good in combat), they can contribute to the team sufficiently to add value, in addition to not necessarily being at a colossal risk of death. Don't compare the level Rogue Scholar to the level 5 Glitter Boy in combat to determine their utility. Compare the level 1 Rogue Scholar to the level 5 Rogue Scholar in utility. A Rogue Scholar's primary utility comes from things other than combat; they *can* fight, but their primary utility comes from skills and knowledge. Will a level 1 Rogue Scholar be as good as a level 5 Rogue Scholar? Nope! ...but they'll be an effective member of the team, and that's the idea!

Most of this thread follows the same theme, but I picked out these paragraphs because I think it sums up the overarching concepts everyone is talking about....

What you're talking about is true of absolutely ANY RPG. No matter the rules. No matter the inherent mechanical balance. No matter the concepts. Player ingenuity and GM fiat will always balance (or unbalance) a system. The comparison made (above) of D&D not accommodating a group of mixed experience levels ignores the same leniency of "player creativity" that is given to Rifts in your scenarios. A weak character in D&D is just as capable of lending to the situation as is a weak character in Rifts. As long as GMs and players are not slaves to the numbers and don't take the text at face value a natural equilibrium will be reached. There is absolutely no inherent quality to D&D that makes such a phenomenon less likely than in Rifts.

Please don't misunderstand me: I am not for one moment suggesting that your reasons are not justification for loving Rifts. But suggesting those elements are not the same elements that boost every other RPG is disingenuous at best. What's important - what really allows such flexibility and ease of adaptability - is one's comfort and familiarity with the given system. Not because the rules are easier or "better," but because those particular rules sync with the particular user's mind frame. You simply cook a better meal in your own kitchen and everyone has a preference on where they keep various utensils.

[ShadowLogan]

Huh.
Now that you mention it, I DO remember that.
I can't seem to find the passage that specifies it, though, which is annoying.

"Combat Abilities: Equal to hand to hand: basic, +1 melee attack" that is in each RMB Dragon Write-up (toward end of each) on pg100-1

Right.
Atlantis is so technologically advanced, that the Kittani energy rifles do about 1d6 more damage than their RMB equivalent!

Which puts them somewhere under the New West equipment.

Atlantis IS much more technologically advanced overall though. That the Kittani (their main source of tech) can only do +1d6 more than RMB equivalent does not disprove anything since the Kittani themselves are held back by the Splurgoth in terms of development, they are also behind the CS when it comes to some aspects of Genetic Engineering (mentioned in WB2), there may also be other factors that restrict the technology (cultural bias, material science, cost-benefit ratio, etc) when it is produced (they have a 5d6/1d6x10 PA hand-held laser cannon). However their overall technology base is established to be superior to that of the CS and even Triax.

[Tor]

I think that'd take one HECK of a piloting check!

What's the worst that could happen if you fail? Doesn't fall damage in MDC shells only apply to body armor and human-size PA? Even if we applied these rules to the bot and rounded up the height to 30ft, that's still only 3 SDC.

[Athos]

I love the setting, but I am not crazy about the rules (or lack of consistency in the rules I should say). The lack of consistent editing is a real problem. Also, I think the different power levels that are out there makes Rifts a munchkin's wet dream. Players that love to dominate a game and make it all about me, me, me are easily able to in Rifts. Don't get me started on GlitterBoys

Yes, as with any game, a superb GM can nullify or spot and rid the group of a bad player, but how many great GMs do you think are really out there? If you think the world is just teaming with them, try going to roll20 or some other site and getting in a game, let alone a good game that lasts for any length of time. I think that the extreme differences in class and race power levels leads to GM burn out in Rifts, there are just too many things open to abuse. Who needs those head aches?

That said, the setting is truly special, being one of the first to mix magic and technology in a future world that allows you to run just about any type of game you can imagine. And for players, there isn't much you can imagine that you can't play in Rifts... assuming the GM lets you of course

It's a fun game, what more needs to be said.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think that'd take one HECK of a piloting check!

What's the worst that could happen if you fail? Doesn't fall damage in MDC shells only apply to body armor and human-size PA? Even if we applied these rules to the bot and rounded up the height to 30ft, that's still only 3 SDC.

The worst? The bot could end up helpless and upside down in the middle of combat.
Minor SDC damage wouldn't really be the issue.

[drewkitty ~..~]

has a love hate thing about rifts....love it cause I can use just about any of my chars if the GM isn't a "purist", and hate it cause rifts is that most GMs run and I'm sick of it.

[Subjugator]

I think that'd take one HECK of a piloting check!

What's the worst that could happen if you fail? Doesn't fall damage in MDC shells only apply to body armor and human-size PA? Even if we applied these rules to the bot and rounded up the height to 30ft, that's still only 3 SDC.

The worst? The bot could end up helpless and upside down in the middle of combat.
Minor SDC damage wouldn't really be the issue.

The worst thing that could happen is that the person is captured, subjected to bio-wizardry experiments that give them an infinite lifespan and regeneration potent enough to allow recovery from any injury, and then tortured until the big crunch or the big freeze.

/Sub

[jaymz]

Nah the worst? The pilot gets one of those annoying itches on his big toe and because he is strapped in and upside down he just cannot get at it.....

[Subjugator]

Nah the worst? The pilot gets one of those annoying itches on his big toe and because he is strapped in and upside down he just cannot get at it.....

Dude, you go too far. This is a family friendly forum.

[jaymz]

Yes.. yes I do

[Zer0 Kay]

Imagine a D&D game with a group of level 5 characters taking a level 1 character into their team as a full member. That level 1 character is not going to be able to contribute as much to the team as they should. A level 1 fighter will not be able to reliably hit the AC of a level CR5 creature and/or will not do enough damage when they hit the creature to make as much of a combat difference as is desirable. Similarly, a level 1 rogue will not be able to pick the locks, disable the traps, or avoid the damage that a level 5 party would encounter. The same pattern follows for clerics, mages, and so on.

Imagine a Rifts game with a group of level 5 characters taking a level 1 character into their team as a full member. Whether that player is a Headhunter (very good in combat), a Rogue Scholar (comparatively weak in combat), or an Undead Slayer (incredibly good in combat), they can contribute to the team sufficiently to add value, in addition to not necessarily being at a colossal risk of death. Don't compare the level Rogue Scholar to the level 5 Glitter Boy in combat to determine their utility. Compare the level 1 Rogue Scholar to the level 5 Rogue Scholar in utility. A Rogue Scholar's primary utility comes from things other than combat; they *can* fight, but their primary utility comes from skills and knowledge. Will a level 1 Rogue Scholar be as good as a level 5 Rogue Scholar? Nope! ...but they'll be an effective member of the team, and that's the idea!

Most of this thread follows the same theme, but I picked out these paragraphs because I think it sums up the overarching concepts everyone is talking about....

What you're talking about is true of absolutely ANY RPG. No matter the rules. No matter the inherent mechanical balance. No matter the concepts. Player ingenuity and GM fiat will always balance (or unbalance) a system. The comparison made (above) of D&D not accommodating a group of mixed experience levels ignores the same leniency of "player creativity" that is given to Rifts in your scenarios. A weak character in D&D is just as capable of lending to the situation as is a weak character in Rifts. As long as GMs and players are not slaves to the numbers and don't take the text at face value a natural equilibrium will be reached. There is absolutely no inherent quality to D&D that makes such a phenomenon less likely than in Rifts.

Please don't misunderstand me: I am not for one moment suggesting that your reasons are not justification for loving Rifts. But suggesting those elements are not the same elements that boost every other RPG is disingenuous at best. What's important - what really allows such flexibility and ease of adaptability - is one's comfort and familiarity with the given system. Not because the rules are easier or "better," but because those particular rules sync with the particular user's mind frame. You simply cook a better meal in your own kitchen and everyone has a preference on where they keep various utensils.

But there is an inherent quality of almost every game including D&D that would be that the rules are expected to be followed by everyone but the GM. The inherent quality of almost all PB is that the rules are a suggestion. So while a DM breaking the rules in D&D is, well breaking the rules a GM "breaking" the rules in PB is actually following the main rule.

[Razzinold]

Imagine a D&D game with a group of level 5 characters taking a level 1 character into their team as a full member. That level 1 character is not going to be able to contribute as much to the team as they should. A level 1 fighter will not be able to reliably hit the AC of a level CR5 creature and/or will not do enough damage when they hit the creature to make as much of a combat difference as is desirable. Similarly, a level 1 rogue will not be able to pick the locks, disable the traps, or avoid the damage that a level 5 party would encounter. The same pattern follows for clerics, mages, and so on.

Imagine a Rifts game with a group of level 5 characters taking a level 1 character into their team as a full member. Whether that player is a Headhunter (very good in combat), a Rogue Scholar (comparatively weak in combat), or an Undead Slayer (incredibly good in combat), they can contribute to the team sufficiently to add value, in addition to not necessarily being at a colossal risk of death. Don't compare the level Rogue Scholar to the level 5 Glitter Boy in combat to determine their utility. Compare the level 1 Rogue Scholar to the level 5 Rogue Scholar in utility. A Rogue Scholar's primary utility comes from things other than combat; they *can* fight, but their primary utility comes from skills and knowledge. Will a level 1 Rogue Scholar be as good as a level 5 Rogue Scholar? Nope! ...but they'll be an effective member of the team, and that's the idea!

Most of this thread follows the same theme, but I picked out these paragraphs because I think it sums up the overarching concepts everyone is talking about....

What you're talking about is true of absolutely ANY RPG. No matter the rules. No matter the inherent mechanical balance. No matter the concepts. Player ingenuity and GM fiat will always balance (or unbalance) a system. The comparison made (above) of D&D not accommodating a group of mixed experience levels ignores the same leniency of "player creativity" that is given to Rifts in your scenarios. A weak character in D&D is just as capable of lending to the situation as is a weak character in Rifts. As long as GMs and players are not slaves to the numbers and don't take the text at face value a natural equilibrium will be reached. There is absolutely no inherent quality to D&D that makes such a phenomenon less likely than in Rifts.

Please don't misunderstand me: I am not for one moment suggesting that your reasons are not justification for loving Rifts. But suggesting those elements are not the same elements that boost every other RPG is disingenuous at best. What's important - what really allows such flexibility and ease of adaptability - is one's comfort and familiarity with the given system. Not because the rules are easier or "better," but because those particular rules sync with the particular user's mind frame. You simply cook a better meal in your own kitchen and everyone has a preference on where they keep various utensils.

But there is an inherent quality of almost every game including D&D that would be that the rules are expected to be followed by everyone but the GM. The inherent quality of almost all PB is that the rules are a suggestion. So while a DM breaking the rules in D&D is, well breaking the rules a GM "breaking" the rules in PB is actually following the main rule.

well said!

I haven't met a GM yet that doesn't have a set of house rules for running a PB game, especially for Rifts.

[sanka]

Exelent post.

Thats also why I like Rifts/the Palladium system.
Level don't mean as much as in D&D for example. And no max of spel levels / day..
Max ISP or PPE is the limit...

And hey, we had house rules in every game, D&D Mechwarrior and Rifts...
So what power creep...

And I simply live the TW and opperator O.C.C.'s.... Tech and psi or magic... Love it...

[Zer0 Kay]

Exelent post.

Thats also why I like Rifts/the Palladium system.
Level don't mean as much as in D&D for example. And no max of spel levels / day..
Max ISP or PPE is the limit...

And hey, we had house rules in every game, D&D Mechwarrior and Rifts...
So what power creep...

And I simply live the TW and opperator O.C.C.'s.... Tech and psi or magic... Love it...

that's another thing the "power creep" in PB is nowhere near as bad as in most other games.
--D&D yup my Character in waterdeep has a katana that is shorter, lighter and quicker than your bastard sword it does batter 2h damage than. Oh plus I'm a samurai so I have ridiculous powers oh plus four other classes.
--Battletech... What is power creep? My mech is a clan omnimech
--Almost every game that has supplements introduces better weapons and/or equipment in order to:
1. Intice gamers to buy it to get better equipment.
2. Introduce in story better tech by:
A. Advancing timeline
B. Introducing an advanced society
In Rifts you can have a Cosmoknight and a rogue scholar in the same party and it can work AND people do it. In D&D and Battletech one would be hard pressed to find someone who is willing to play a rogue when ninjas are allowed, to find someone willing to use a Battlemaster instead of a Daishi. Power creep unballance is evident when a person is unwilling to use anything else or regress and I think that it is ALL due to the GM in a rifts game. Palladium is a horrible game system for a first time green RP GM to run. There are too many choices, too much balancing required on the fly and too much contradiction to be running it BY THE RULES. A gm should start out as a player and should cut his GM teeth on a game that is more cut and dry. Then when he wants to expand into something that allows him more of a sandbox with less winning from rules lawyers he should GM a PB system where it is expected of him to tell the rules lawyer and the munchkin to shut up and role play and not roll play.

There another reason I love Rifts
Sandbox style expansive creativity. It is the GM's game NOT the manufacturer's

[sanka]

@ Zero Kay

Never thought of a clann mech as power creep. After my players got them, they shortly went back to old tech. No techs could handle the omni's, and no spares, in my games. And no, I didn't have them do accountancy. but every advantage has a disadvantage.... And boy were those omni's fire magnets. Not even to speak of the number of times someone wanted to steel one..

Just like Nurani stuf and the CS..
The plasma cartriges can always run out, and no shop has them on hand, or the prices are though the roof... GM's call..

[Zer0 Kay]

@ Zero Kay

Never thought of a clann mech as power creep. After my players got them, they shortly went back to old tech. No techs could handle the omni's, and no spares, in my games. And no, I didn't have them do accountancy. but every advantage has a disadvantage.... And boy were those omni's fire magnets. Not even to speak of the number of times someone wanted to steel one..

Just like Nurani stuf and the CS..
The plasma cartriges can always run out, and no shop has them on hand, or the prices are though the roof... GM's call..

What no u stop that GM balancing... Especially in a miniature battle game. mechwarrior is the RP not battletech.
And if your doing lance against lance on the boardgame an all omni vs. All innersphere is hardly gonna matter if they're bullet magnets when it is only one player vs. Another and one doesn't have omni. Besides if your RPing and it was a custom omni the players shouldn't know. Custom meaning ground up not custom omni loadout. There is no visual cue that an omni is an omni unless you know the model.

[sanka]

In the boardgame the omni's rock, even when facing the same points in IS-tech, indeed.
The point system in Battletech is way off there....

But were getting way off track here...

[Tor]

The bot could end up helpless and upside down in the middle of combat.

Even if the legs can't hyper-extend to right it, I figure they could do a swinging motion to generate enough momentum to right itself, doubt a real spider would ever have this problem, it's not a turtle.

[Zer0 Kay]

In the boardgame the omni's rock, even when facing the same points in IS-tech, indeed.
The point system in Battletech is way off there....

But were getting way off track here...

I disagree, and this is why. I'm arguing my point that Rifts has less power creep than most other popular games, either due to a slow rate of creep and/or the built in necessity for the GM to manage it. I've never been in a game where everyone picked the "power creep" stuff, and I'd let them. Which shows me there is no true unbalancing of the game from power creep. Everyone isn't an ATL-7 toting Cosmoknight powering the weapon from a CAF power pack.

I love rifts!

[Killer Cyborg]

The bot could end up helpless and upside down in the middle of combat.

Even if the legs can't hyper-extend to right it, I figure they could do a swinging motion to generate enough momentum to right itself, doubt a real spider would ever have this problem, it's not a turtle.

It's not a real spider.

[Tor]

But it's kinda designed like one...

Robot HtH basic (I don't know if an elite exists for spider-walkers, don't see one) gives a bonus to roll with impact so presumably a skull-walker could do that, but it doesn't seem like something they would do if there was a risk of being unrightable.

The top of their head looks curved enough that they would roll. Only if they fell upside down into mud or something could I see it bring a problem, but then an Enforcer would probably have trouble with that too.

[Killer Cyborg]

But it's kinda designed like one…

So's a ring I have.
But that doesn't mean that it moves the same way.

Robot HtH basic (I don't know if an elite exists for spider-walkers, don't see one) gives a bonus to roll with impact so presumably a skull-walker could do that, but it doesn't seem like something they would do if there was a risk of being unrightable.

…

…

…

Okay, I'm done.
Somebody else explain what "rolling with a punch" means.

[Tor]

There's also rolling with a fall which does imply ground contact.

[Killer Cyborg]

There's also rolling with a fall which does imply ground contact.

But it doesn't imply being upside down on one's back, and it doesn't imply any ability to right oneself.

[Tor]

Usually you do roll over your shoulder blades to some degree to cushion the blow. I guess the better question is: should our default be to assume that things are capable of righting themselves unless told otherwise? I just don't get the impression of a paralyzed turtle from this powerful thing. Think of how much power those legs would have to propel that heavy frame at the speed it can run at, rolling from head2feet should be easy.

[Killer Cyborg]

Usually you do roll over your shoulder blades to some degree to cushion the blow.

Spider Skull Walkers have shoulder blades?

I guess the better question is: should our default be to assume that things are capable of righting themselves unless told otherwise? I just don't get the impression of a paralyzed turtle from this powerful thing. Think of how much power those legs would have to propel that heavy frame at the speed it can run at, rolling from head2feet should be easy.

Sure. They're probably about as nimble as an AT-AT.

[Tor]

Hm, I guess replace scapulae with 'that hard bit behind where your limbs end' and that would be the head.

You can't see this guy doing some kinda kip-up?

If we look at the third limb from the right (the left-front leg) it looks like the hip? joint can raise at least 45 degrees above parallel. The speed these would need to move at would allow some sweet momentum for doing a roll, would require a piloting skill roll but seems possible to me.

[Whiskeyjack]

The hydraulics are going to limit how far the legs can bend. While I can see them easily getting up from their side, if they're on their backs/heads, they're screwed.