Splugorth Slaver SDC

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Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by grandmaster z0b »

I'm trying to work out why the Splugorth Slaver has Hit Points but under SDC it says "Not applicable". Is it because the Hit Points are MDC although this is never stated? Is it because it simply doesn't get SDC but just lots of hit points?

Usually when it says "SDC: Not applicable" it's because the beast is MDC. There's virtually no other being that have hit points but no SDC.

Also I'm looking over the various version of the Slaver and see it has different MDC values for the AoI shield depending on the book. The original Sourcebook gives the slaver 300 MDC Main Body, 30 to the tentacles and 500 to the barge but later on states that the barge itself has 500 MDC. That makes little sense since a AoI force field would have a full body MDC, not different MDC for different locations and it seems to me that it actually meant the Slaver itself was MDC but left off the total value of the AoI. Then later versions remove the MDC by location for the Slaver body but leaves those values for the barge but adds the 120 MDC AoI.

:?
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

grandmaster z0b wrote:I'm trying to work out why the Splugorth Slaver has Hit Points but under SDC it says "Not applicable". Is it because the Hit Points are MDC although this is never stated? Is it because it simply doesn't get SDC but just lots of hit points?

Usually when it says "SDC: Not applicable" it's because the beast is MDC. There's virtually no other being that have hit points but no SDC.

Also I'm looking over the various version of the Slaver and see it has different MDC values for the AoI shield depending on the book. The original Sourcebook gives the slaver 300 MDC Main Body, 30 to the tentacles and 500 to the barge but later on states that the barge itself has 500 MDC. That makes little sense since a AoI force field would have a full body MDC, not different MDC for different locations and it seems to me that it actually meant the Slaver itself was MDC but left off the total value of the AoI. Then later versions remove the MDC by location for the Slaver body but leaves those values for the barge but adds the 120 MDC AoI.

:?


it's simple, the slaver has been revised over the years, and the latest published book trumps earlier. in this case, Sourcebook One Revised has the offical stats, all other printings should be completely ignored from here on out (unless a newer one trumps Sorucebook One Revised)

The Revised sourcebook one also answers your question. it is an HP being, but it has an SDC of 0. it's MDC rating has changed, and it is specifically MDC armor, and is covered with an MDC slime that gives it protection for it's squishy HP body, as well as having layors of armor/magical protection on top of that.

so it's simple. the slaver is an HP being. it is coated with MDC slime, and has several layers of MDC defences that must be gotten through before you can get at the HP.
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by grandmaster z0b »

I get the different revisions.

However it's not as simple as you're making out. It doesn't say SDC=0, it says "SDC: Not applicable". All other SDC beings (except Vampires) have HP and SDC and only MDC beings have "SDC: Not applicable". There is a specific reason Vamps have HP but no SDC but no explanation why the Slaver has none.

Honestly it seems to me to be the victim of bad copy pasting and bad revisions. I think originally it was supposed to be a MD being with 300 MDC main body and a AoI forcefield but the bad editing made it vague so we have now seen 3 separate versions: SB1, WB2: Atlantis, and SB1: revised. All have different MD listings and honestly the latest seems acutually quite underpowered on the MD front. 120 MD is not hard to do in one round with ranged weaponry then you can work on the 55MD from the armor and slime. In hand to hand they are deadly with 16 attacks but from range they aren't much of a threat. If they were MD creatures then the AoI forcefield and the ability to heal in the tank would make them very tough to kill, but without that it seems the healing tank is kind of pointless unless it heals the slime or something.
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Subjugator »

*sigh*

Either they shouldn't have hit points or they should have SDC.

/Sub
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

grandmaster z0b wrote:I get the different revisions.

However it's not as simple as you're making out. It doesn't say SDC=0, it says "SDC: Not applicable". All other SDC beings (except Vampires) have HP and SDC and only MDC beings have "SDC: Not applicable". There is a specific reason Vamps have HP but no SDC but no explanation why the Slaver has none.

Honestly it seems to me to be the victim of bad copy pasting and bad revisions. I think originally it was supposed to be a MD being with 300 MDC main body and a AoI forcefield but the bad editing made it vague so we have now seen 3 separate versions: SB1, WB2: Atlantis, and SB1: revised. All have different MD listings and honestly the latest seems acutually quite underpowered on the MD front. 120 MD is not hard to do in one round with ranged weaponry then you can work on the 55MD from the armor and slime. In hand to hand they are deadly with 16 attacks but from range they aren't much of a threat. If they were MD creatures then the AoI forcefield and the ability to heal in the tank would make them very tough to kill, but without that it seems the healing tank is kind of pointless unless it heals the slime or something.

I don't think it can be a victim of bad copy paste, since SB1o is the original version it is present in (SB1o mentions waiting for WB1). SB1o also does the exact same thing with the Rhino-Buffalo and Ostrosaurus, not to mention the Brodkil AND ARCHIE-3 (actual, not decoy).

I would just consider them to be some type of organic full conversion 'borg, Which for the Slaver isn't pretty far off (IINM they are essentially bio-borgs when joined with a barge). The others not so clear, but I would take it as read that they have some "soft vulnerable" parts in their "anatomy" that are vulnerable to SDC/HP attack.
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

grandmaster z0b wrote:I get the different revisions.

However it's not as simple as you're making out. It doesn't say SDC=0, it says "SDC: Not applicable". All other SDC beings (except Vampires) have HP and SDC and only MDC beings have "SDC: Not applicable". There is a specific reason Vamps have HP but no SDC but no explanation why the Slaver has none.

Honestly it seems to me to be the victim of bad copy pasting and bad revisions. I think originally it was supposed to be a MD being with 300 MDC main body and a AoI forcefield but the bad editing made it vague so we have now seen 3 separate versions: SB1, WB2: Atlantis, and SB1: revised. All have different MD listings and honestly the latest seems acutually quite underpowered on the MD front. 120 MD is not hard to do in one round with ranged weaponry then you can work on the 55MD from the armor and slime. In hand to hand they are deadly with 16 attacks but from range they aren't much of a threat. If they were MD creatures then the AoI forcefield and the ability to heal in the tank would make them very tough to kill, but without that it seems the healing tank is kind of pointless unless it heals the slime or something.


All that means is it's the only known HP being that cannot have SDC. I don't get why that's a problem? if it says SDC isn't applicable, it means SDC isn't applicable. how is the fact it's the only one that dosn't a problem? there's an exception to every rule.

Just like vampire intelligences are an exception in that they are the only being to have natural HP and natural MDC. every rule has an exception.
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by grandmaster z0b »

Subjugator wrote:*sigh*

Either they shouldn't have hit points or they should have SDC.

/Sub

Exactly.
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by eliakon »

grandmaster z0b wrote:
Subjugator wrote:*sigh*

Either they shouldn't have hit points or they should have SDC.

/Sub

Exactly.

Okay random technobabble time here.....
The process used to bind the slaver being to the barge involves burning off their SDC (similar to how the golem spell works) This level of life-force fueled magic is highly race dependent, and is in fact one of the reasons that ONLY members of the 'slaver' race are ever seen bonded to the platforms....because only their race is capable of making the transformation.

Presto, a reason why an mortal (HP) race doesn't have SDC.
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by The Beast »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
grandmaster z0b wrote:I get the different revisions.

However it's not as simple as you're making out. It doesn't say SDC=0, it says "SDC: Not applicable". All other SDC beings (except Vampires) have HP and SDC and only MDC beings have "SDC: Not applicable". There is a specific reason Vamps have HP but no SDC but no explanation why the Slaver has none.

Honestly it seems to me to be the victim of bad copy pasting and bad revisions. I think originally it was supposed to be a MD being with 300 MDC main body and a AoI forcefield but the bad editing made it vague so we have now seen 3 separate versions: SB1, WB2: Atlantis, and SB1: revised. All have different MD listings and honestly the latest seems acutually quite underpowered on the MD front. 120 MD is not hard to do in one round with ranged weaponry then you can work on the 55MD from the armor and slime. In hand to hand they are deadly with 16 attacks but from range they aren't much of a threat. If they were MD creatures then the AoI forcefield and the ability to heal in the tank would make them very tough to kill, but without that it seems the healing tank is kind of pointless unless it heals the slime or something.


All that means is it's the only known HP being that cannot have SDC. I don't get why that's a problem? if it says SDC isn't applicable, it means SDC isn't applicable. how is the fact it's the only one that dosn't a problem? there's an exception to every rule.

Just like vampire intelligences are an exception in that they are the only being to have natural HP and natural MDC. every rule has an exception.


That was changed. VIs no longer have MDC.
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Point of FACT, in the original Source Book 1 there are 5r instances of HP >0 w/SDC n/a AND MDC >0. Now most of those instances I know have been revised in later books, but with regard to SB1o it was hardly a single instance.

You can see that with:
-ARCHIE-3 (real ARCHIE not the OZ double, AFAIK it hasn't been chanced in a later book)
-Broadkil (as of WB5 they just have MDC)
-Rhino Buffulo (as of WB14 they just have MDC)
-Ostrosaurus (as of WB14 they just have MDC)
-Splugorth Slaver

Anyone know if Palladium has ever had a setting w/o SDC for living creatures?

eliakon wrote:The process used to bind the slaver being to the barge involves burning off their SDC (similar to how the golem spell works) This level of life-force fueled magic is highly race dependent, and is in fact one of the reasons that ONLY members of the 'slaver' race are ever seen bonded to the platforms....because only their race is capable of making the transformation.

Which might work, but it doesn't explain why Slavers that haven't been bonded to a barge don't have SDC or even a foot note to that effect. As they say not all Slavers are bonded to a barge.

It looks like in techno-babble terms the evolution of these creatures did not result in them developing SDC "skin", and no amount of training will produce it.
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by The Beast »

ShadowLogan wrote:Point of FACT, in the original Source Book 1 there are 5r instances of HP >0 w/SDC n/a AND MDC >0. Now most of those instances I know have been revised in later books, but with regard to SB1o it was hardly a single instance.

You can see that with:
-ARCHIE-3 (real ARCHIE not the OZ double, AFAIK it hasn't been chanced in a later book)
-Broadkil (as of WB5 they just have MDC)
-Rhino Buffulo (as of WB14 they just have MDC)
-Ostrosaurus (as of WB14 they just have MDC)
-Splugorth Slaver

Anyone know if Palladium has ever had a setting w/o SDC for living creatures?

eliakon wrote:The process used to bind the slaver being to the barge involves burning off their SDC (similar to how the golem spell works) This level of life-force fueled magic is highly race dependent, and is in fact one of the reasons that ONLY members of the 'slaver' race are ever seen bonded to the platforms....because only their race is capable of making the transformation.

Which might work, but it doesn't explain why Slavers that haven't been bonded to a barge don't have SDC or even a foot note to that effect. As they say not all Slavers are bonded to a barge.

It looks like in techno-babble terms the evolution of these creatures did not result in them developing SDC "skin", and no amount of training will produce it.


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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by grandmaster z0b »

ShadowLogan wrote:Point of FACT, in the original Source Book 1 there are 5r instances of HP >0 w/SDC n/a AND MDC >0. Now most of those instances I know have been revised in later books, but with regard to SB1o it was hardly a single instance.

You can see that with:
-ARCHIE-3 (real ARCHIE not the OZ double, AFAIK it hasn't been chanced in a later book)
-Broadkil (as of WB5 they just have MDC)
-Rhino Buffulo (as of WB14 they just have MDC)
-Ostrosaurus (as of WB14 they just have MDC)
-Splugorth Slaver

Yeah this is what I thought, sounds like the Slaver missed out on a proper revision. Should have either extra SDC (likely) or become MDC.
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Tor »

Subjugator wrote:*sigh*

Either they shouldn't have hit points or they should have SDC.

/Sub


Exception: guys like vampires and werewolves.

I don't have any problem with some races starting with no SDC. Gnomes and Humans don't have such a bonus. But a Slaver should get bonuses from physical skills or OCCs is they are able to get one.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:vampire intelligences are an exception in that they are the only being to have natural HP and natural MDC. every rule has an exception.

I'd say VIs illustrate that there is clearly no "you cannot have HP and MDC simultaneously" rule, whatever people might assume, so it is not an exception to anything.

'sides, they not alone, Vampire Kingdoms had a couple other instances of this:
*pg 112 Mii-Tar had HP/SDC plus MDC natural armor PLUS more MDC from special-designed armor.
*pg 171 Vernulians have HP and MDC from natural body armor, before even considering the force field MDC some also get or the robot-looking Serpent PA some others get
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by grandmaster z0b »

Tor wrote:
Subjugator wrote:*sigh*

Either they shouldn't have hit points or they should have SDC.

/Sub


Exception: guys like vampires and werewolves.

I don't have any problem with some races starting with no SDC. Gnomes and Humans don't have such a bonus. But a Slaver should get bonuses from physical skills or OCCs is they are able to get one.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:vampire intelligences are an exception in that they are the only being to have natural HP and natural MDC. every rule has an exception.

I'd say VIs illustrate that there is clearly no "you cannot have HP and MDC simultaneously" rule, whatever people might assume, so it is not an exception to anything.

'sides, they not alone, Vampire Kingdoms had a couple other instances of this:
*pg 112 Mii-Tar had HP/SDC plus MDC natural armor PLUS more MDC from special-designed armor.
*pg 171 Vernulians have HP and MDC from natural body armor, before even considering the force field MDC some also get or the robot-looking Serpent PA some others get


As has been pointed out by The Beast, VI's no longer have MDC and HP, they just have HP. The other two examples seem more like SDC creatures that have MDC body armor, almost like cyber armor.
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Subjugator »

Tor wrote:
Subjugator wrote:*sigh*

Either they shouldn't have hit points or they should have SDC.

/Sub


Exception: guys like vampires and werewolves.

I don't have any problem with some races starting with no SDC. Gnomes and Humans don't have such a bonus. But a Slaver should get bonuses from physical skills or OCCs is they are able to get one.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:vampire intelligences are an exception in that they are the only being to have natural HP and natural MDC. every rule has an exception.

I'd say VIs illustrate that there is clearly no "you cannot have HP and MDC simultaneously" rule, whatever people might assume, so it is not an exception to anything.

'sides, they not alone, Vampire Kingdoms had a couple other instances of this:
*pg 112 Mii-Tar had HP/SDC plus MDC natural armor PLUS more MDC from special-designed armor.
*pg 171 Vernulians have HP and MDC from natural body armor, before even considering the force field MDC some also get or the robot-looking Serpent PA some others get


This was before CB1, which established some new rules.

I think Doc Reid and Dr. Gray Matter also had SDC and/or hit points, but don't have time to check.

/Sub
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

IIRC, Archie has HP, and no SDC.
He does have a MDC housing, but it's not clear if that counts as armor or part of his body.
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Subjugator wrote:*sigh*

Either they shouldn't have hit points or they should have SDC.

/Sub


Why?

Just because most things have SDC dosn't mean they all have to. There is no sacredness to consistancy.
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Subjugator »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Subjugator wrote:*sigh*

Either they shouldn't have hit points or they should have SDC.

/Sub


Why?

Just because most things have SDC dosn't mean they all have to. There is no sacredness to consistancy.


Fair enough. I thought that was a rule, though.

/Sub
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Tor »

grandmaster z0b wrote:As has been pointed out by The Beast, VI's no longer have MDC and HP, they just have HP.
This a VKrevised thing? I liked the separate pool thing... *wants to treat it like Thoth and pretend it is still there and just left out for space, like him being a Stone Master in D+G.

grandmaster z0b wrote:The other two examples seem more like SDC creatures that have MDC body armor, almost like cyber armor.

Except it is 'natural' armor so it is part of them and would heal, didn't have an AR, etc.

Subjugator wrote:This was before CB1, which established some new rules.
Which were? I thought even CB1 had an example of HP/MDC, will have to double-check that assumption though...

Subjugator wrote:I think Doc Reid and Dr. Gray Matter also had SDC and/or hit points, but don't have time to check.
Reid had HP/SDC since he was only a partial borg, would make sense since there's still biological parts even if you have an MDC chassis.

Gray Matter under HP said "see MDC", though he is a full conversion so that could be why. Though he was also a 'Psi-Borg'. Somehow a Master even though he had only 2 Super Psi. Utterly ignored the RMB rules about full conversion wiping out psi. Crazy guy, challenges the Psi-Implants everyone loves in Psyscape so much.
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Subjugator »

Tor wrote:
Subjugator wrote:I think Doc Reid and Dr. Gray Matter also had SDC and/or hit points, but don't have time to check.
Reid had HP/SDC since he was only a partial borg, would make sense since there's still biological parts even if you have an MDC chassis.

Gray Matter under HP said "see MDC", though he is a full conversion so that could be why. Though he was also a 'Psi-Borg'. Somehow a Master even though he had only 2 Super Psi. Utterly ignored the RMB rules about full conversion wiping out psi. Crazy guy, challenges the Psi-Implants everyone loves in Psyscape so much.


At the time, a partial conversion became an MDC being and didn't have SDC. He was an exception to normal rules.

/Sub
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Tor »

Was this in Sourcebook 1 or something? Hard to remember how books went back then, was it RMB>SB1>WB1>CB1?

Checking RMBp47-49 (Borg OCC) and 237-243 and not noticing anything about Borgs (partial or full) not getting HP or SDC. I always had the impression they kept it but that it was only damaged if their armor/chasis MDC was depleted.

Although it does seem logical that since flesh is removed you should lose a percentage of SDC and HP, just having trouble finding where it ever says that happens.
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Subjugator »

In the RMB, if you became a partial conversion you became an MDC being. I'll have to find it later.
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by The Beast »

Subjugator wrote:In the RMB, if you became a partial conversion you became an MDC being. I'll have to find it later.


It wasn't from the RMB. It came about after phase weapons were introduced and customers complained that it was now too easy to kill borgs.
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

The Beast wrote:
Subjugator wrote:In the RMB, if you became a partial conversion you became an MDC being. I'll have to find it later.


It wasn't from the RMB. It came about after phase weapons were introduced and customers complained that it was now too easy to kill borgs.


The RMB lists the mega-damage for partial conversion (180 MDC) and full conversion (280 MDC) Borgs.
It is not specified in the RMB any place that I'm aware of that the MDC replaces the character's SDC and Hit Points, but I think that it was pretty clearly intended to, as the character's body is being replaced.
A full conversion Borg, for example, typically only has "the brain, often, but not always, the face, and a few other original human components, especially the tongue, throat, and head."
There is a specific note that "the body is effectively a fully functioning robot that responds to the human brain."

People argued about the matter on the boards for quite a while, with one side arguing that Borgs must retain their HP because we were never explicitly told that they don't, and the other side arguing that since we're never told that the Borgs keep their HP or SDC, then it must get replaced when the body does.
The first side argued that because there were organic parts of the original human left, that they must have some SDC/HP.
The second side argued that no, that wasn't necessarily true, that Borgs seemed to be treated like MDC beings after their conversion.
Kevin was asked about it in an interview, and he said that Borgs were MDC beings.
RUE settled the matter by putting it into print that Borgs are MDC beings, and no longer have HP/SDC.

So now we know.
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by grandmaster z0b »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Subjugator wrote:*sigh*

Either they shouldn't have hit points or they should have SDC.

/Sub


Why?

Just because most things have SDC dosn't mean they all have to. There is no sacredness to consistancy.

Yeah but when game rules have consistency everyone wins, when game rules are not consistent everyone just gets annoyed and confused and spend time bickering on game forums because things are not clear. Other game systems have learnt this and clarify rules so that everyone who plays them have a clear, consistent understanding of the rules. When an issue like this arises someone from the company comes along and explains why the rule is that way or will put forward an official errata for clarification.
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Subjugator »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
The Beast wrote:
Subjugator wrote:In the RMB, if you became a partial conversion you became an MDC being. I'll have to find it later.


It wasn't from the RMB. It came about after phase weapons were introduced and customers complained that it was now too easy to kill borgs.


The RMB lists the mega-damage for partial conversion (180 MDC) and full conversion (280 MDC) Borgs.
It is not specified in the RMB any place that I'm aware of that the MDC replaces the character's SDC and Hit Points, but I think that it was pretty clearly intended to, as the character's body is being replaced.
A full conversion Borg, for example, typically only has "the brain, often, but not always, the face, and a few other original human components, especially the tongue, throat, and head."
There is a specific note that "the body is effectively a fully functioning robot that responds to the human brain."

People argued about the matter on the boards for quite a while, with one side arguing that Borgs must retain their HP because we were never explicitly told that they don't, and the other side arguing that since we're never told that the Borgs keep their HP or SDC, then it must get replaced when the body does.
The first side argued that because there were organic parts of the original human left, that they must have some SDC/HP.
The second side argued that no, that wasn't necessarily true, that Borgs seemed to be treated like MDC beings after their conversion.
Kevin was asked about it in an interview, and he said that Borgs were MDC beings.
RUE settled the matter by putting it into print that Borgs are MDC beings, and no longer have HP/SDC.

So now we know.


Thank God you have links for that stuff. I have a bunch of stuff from a hundred different sources and I can't remember which is from private conversations and can't really be used.

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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Tor »

Killer Cyborg wrote:RUE settled the matter by putting it into print that Borgs are MDC beings, and no longer have HP/SDC.

Which begs the question: do phase weapons harm that MDC when it is obviously from inorganic components? Or are they just immune to it? How is their brain shielded? It's not as if all borgs have head-forcefields. Not to mention spinal cord remants should also be vulnerable.

I'm fine for ripping off borg SDC but I think they should have HP as normal, if only out of consideration for phase weapons and other attacks like that spectral-sword thingy in Bletherad that bypasses inorganic stuff and hits living things directly.

I'm not convinced HP and SDC are entirely dependent on flesh... I mean, you bring them with you (albeit combined into an astral SDC) when you do Astral Projection right? So it's almost something of a life force or a vitality... and it's not as if people who have an arm or leg cut off permanently lose any of either, is it?
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Tor wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:RUE settled the matter by putting it into print that Borgs are MDC beings, and no longer have HP/SDC.

Which begs the question: do phase weapons harm that MDC when it is obviously from inorganic components? Or are they just immune to it? How is their brain shielded? It's not as if all borgs have head-forcefields. Not to mention spinal cord remants should also be vulnerable.

I'm fine for ripping off borg SDC but I think they should have HP as normal, if only out of consideration for phase weapons and other attacks like that spectral-sword thingy in Bletherad that bypasses inorganic stuff and hits living things directly.

I'm not convinced HP and SDC are entirely dependent on flesh... I mean, you bring them with you (albeit combined into an astral SDC) when you do Astral Projection right? So it's almost something of a life force or a vitality... and it's not as if people who have an arm or leg cut off permanently lose any of either, is it?


They are MDC beings, and the damage is inflicted to the main body MDC. the Kevin offical Q&A was explictly asking what phase beamers do, and the answer was "just hit the main body, they are MDC beings now"
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Tor wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:RUE settled the matter by putting it into print that Borgs are MDC beings, and no longer have HP/SDC.

Which begs the question: do phase weapons harm that MDC when it is obviously from inorganic components? Or are they just immune to it? How is their brain shielded? It's not as if all borgs have head-forcefields. Not to mention spinal cord remants should also be vulnerable.


Phase weapons are described as harming living beings, no matter what they are made of.
Borgs are living beings.
Ergo, phase weapons damage borgs, no matter what they are made of.

I'm fine for ripping off borg SDC but I think they should have HP as normal, if only out of consideration for phase weapons and other attacks like that spectral-sword thingy in Bletherad that bypasses inorganic stuff and hits living things directly.


I find it implausible that a person who is essentially reduced to a brain would have anywhere close to the same number of hit points as a normal human.
Also, I'll point out that phase weapons don't bypass inorganic stuff. They damage living beings, no matter what those beings are made of.
If there's a living rock-man, or a living metal-man, for example, they're still harmed by phase weapons, even though they're inorganic.

I'm not convinced HP and SDC are entirely dependent on flesh... I mean, you bring them with you (albeit combined into an astral SDC) when you do Astral Projection right? So it's almost something of a life force or a vitality... and it's not as if people who have an arm or leg cut off permanently lose any of either, is it?


True… but I'd say that having your torso removed should do the trick. Especially if the limbs and skull are also removed.
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Subjugator »

Tor wrote:Which begs the question: do phase weapons harm that MDC when it is obviously from inorganic components? Or are they just immune to it? How is their brain shielded? It's not as if all borgs have head-forcefields. Not to mention spinal cord remants should also be vulnerable.


Who says they're inorganic? I strongly suspect the metals that go into making a borg have carbon in 'em.

I'm fine for ripping off borg SDC but I think they should have HP as normal, if only out of consideration for phase weapons and other attacks like that spectral-sword thingy in Bletherad that bypasses inorganic stuff and hits living things directly.

I'm not convinced HP and SDC are entirely dependent on flesh... I mean, you bring them with you (albeit combined into an astral SDC) when you do Astral Projection right? So it's almost something of a life force or a vitality... and it's not as if people who have an arm or leg cut off permanently lose any of either, is it?


If that were the case, then Sea Titans would have 'em too.

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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Subjugator wrote:
Tor wrote:Which begs the question: do phase weapons harm that MDC when it is obviously from inorganic components? Or are they just immune to it? How is their brain shielded? It's not as if all borgs have head-forcefields. Not to mention spinal cord remants should also be vulnerable.


Who says they're inorganic? I strongly suspect the metals that go into making a borg have carbon in 'em.


Would that help if you are converting a non-carbon-based life form to a cyborg? "organic" is defined as things that have carbon in them, because all terrestrial life has carbon in them. but in a setting where it is possible to run across non-carbon-based-life, using organic in that sense is probablly misleading, as you can easially have life forms that contain no carbon, so a new term should be used.
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Subjugator »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Subjugator wrote:
Tor wrote:Which begs the question: do phase weapons harm that MDC when it is obviously from inorganic components? Or are they just immune to it? How is their brain shielded? It's not as if all borgs have head-forcefields. Not to mention spinal cord remants should also be vulnerable.


Who says they're inorganic? I strongly suspect the metals that go into making a borg have carbon in 'em.


Would that help if you are converting a non-carbon-based life form to a cyborg? "organic" is defined as things that have carbon in them, because all terrestrial life has carbon in them. but in a setting where it is possible to run across non-carbon-based-life, using organic in that sense is probablly misleading, as you can easially have life forms that contain no carbon, so a new term should be used.


I was thinking the metal cyborg components were organic, though TBH, I doubt the slavers are say...silicon based...for example.

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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by guardiandashi »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Subjugator wrote:
Tor wrote:Which begs the question: do phase weapons harm that MDC when it is obviously from inorganic components? Or are they just immune to it? How is their brain shielded? It's not as if all borgs have head-forcefields. Not to mention spinal cord remants should also be vulnerable.


Who says they're inorganic? I strongly suspect the metals that go into making a borg have carbon in 'em.


Would that help if you are converting a non-carbon-based life form to a cyborg? "organic" is defined as things that have carbon in them, because all terrestrial life has carbon in them. but in a setting where it is possible to run across non-carbon-based-life, using organic in that sense is probablly misleading, as you can easially have life forms that contain no carbon, so a new term should be used.


see I don't consider a "normal" cyborg's metal parts to be organic, personally.

Organic to me means that it grows and repairs in a manner similar to or an analog to living flesh as seen on earth. In that sense I consider the shemarians with their nannite repair systems to be at least borderline techno-organic IE while they may NOT be technically organic/alive they fake it fairly well.

now a bio borg, or a lot of splugorth "tech" with symbiotes, parasites and similar are obviously organic to my mind.

some of the japan borgs might be approaching psudo organic etc.

and I can totally see that you potentially could have a creature that uses other elements like silicon, or similar in place of carbon in our biology, heck I remember reading one of the author Anne McCaffrey's novel series ( the crystal singer ones) where the Planet Balybran had at least partially silicon based environment and the Symbiots got into people and tweeked their genetics to bridge the gaps. The borg from star trek could in some ways be argued that many of their addons/upgrades and prosthetics are at least partially techno-organic.
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by eliakon »

guardiandashi wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Subjugator wrote:
Tor wrote:Which begs the question: do phase weapons harm that MDC when it is obviously from inorganic components? Or are they just immune to it? How is their brain shielded? It's not as if all borgs have head-forcefields. Not to mention spinal cord remants should also be vulnerable.


Who says they're inorganic? I strongly suspect the metals that go into making a borg have carbon in 'em.


Would that help if you are converting a non-carbon-based life form to a cyborg? "organic" is defined as things that have carbon in them, because all terrestrial life has carbon in them. but in a setting where it is possible to run across non-carbon-based-life, using organic in that sense is probablly misleading, as you can easially have life forms that contain no carbon, so a new term should be used.

see I don't consider a "normal" cyborg's metal parts to be organic, personally.

Organic to me means that it grows and repairs in a manner similar to or an analog to living flesh as seen on earth.
\

Biological would be a good word.
Living, self repairing, psudo-life, ect. all good words.
Its when people go and use their own personal (incorrect) definitions for words, in public discussions that problems arise because some one says X people think that they mean X (because that's what the word means) and the person really means F (because that's what they decided it should mean)
In this case the word Organic has an actual meaning (carbon containing) so when people are discussing it they are using in in that context.
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by guardiandashi »

per dictionary.com
while what you said eliakon may technically be right (according to a new definition)

my response was correct according to classic definition.

British Dictionary definitions for or-gan-ic Expand




organic


/ɔːˈɡænɪk/



adjective

1.
of, relating to, derived from, or characteristic of living plants and animals

2.
of or relating to animal or plant constituents or products having a carbon basis

3.
of or relating to one or more organs of an animal or plant

an alloy containing carbon like steel is not really organic. something like carbon fibre or a primarily carbon structure could be considered organic, but that steel alloy with ~1-5% carbon in it (to make it harder and tougher) should not really be considered organic. IMO
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Subjugator »

guardiandashi wrote:per dictionary.com
while what you said eliakon may technically be right (according to a new definition)

my response was correct according to classic definition.


We're not living in classic times. Fantastic does not mean something that is imaginary, terrific does not mean scary, and awful does not mean awe inspiring.

an alloy containing carbon like steel is not really organic. something like carbon fibre or a primarily carbon structure could be considered organic, but that steel alloy with ~1-5% carbon in it (to make it harder and tougher) should not really be considered organic. IMO


You can hold an incorrect opinion if you like, but we're discussing materials here, and particularly in the context of materials engineering, organic has a specific meaning, and that specific meaning is, 'a complex compound containing carbon.'

Yes...that means Coca Cola is organic and pure water is not.

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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Subjugator wrote:
guardiandashi wrote:per dictionary.com
while what you said eliakon may technically be right (according to a new definition)

my response was correct according to classic definition.


We're not living in classic times. Fantastic does not mean something that is imaginary, terrific does not mean scary, and awful does not mean awe inspiring.

an alloy containing carbon like steel is not really organic. something like carbon fibre or a primarily carbon structure could be considered organic, but that steel alloy with ~1-5% carbon in it (to make it harder and tougher) should not really be considered organic. IMO


You can hold an incorrect opinion if you like, but we're discussing materials here, and particularly in the context of materials engineering, organic has a specific meaning, and that specific meaning is, 'a complex compound containing carbon.'

/Sub


And we are speculating that prehaps palladium did not use the word organic properly, and in fact simply meant "biological"--because to most people, they think "organic" and "biological" are synonymous. they are not, and those who think so are technically wrong, but when a majority of people think a word means something other than what it means, you have to accept that maybe "organic"--as used in the book, was actually supposed to be "biological".

This is how the definitions of words change over time. when enough people are using it wrongly, the old definitions become wrong in practice, if not in fact.
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Tor »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:They are MDC beings, and the damage is inflicted to the main body MDC. the Kevin offical Q&A was explictly asking what phase beamers do, and the answer was "just hit the main body, they are MDC beings now"


Right but, even ignoring the extra body armor that borgs wear... for the most part these are clearly inorganic components...

Even if something is artificial and simulates life (like an android, perhaps Machine People) it's not really alive, is it? It's weird to think a phase beamer would hurt those parts.

We even have some cases in NGR where a borg is basically just a human brain riding in a robot (NGR p 168). In these cases, even though the 'MDC Being' may control the entire body of a massive Black Knight robot, realistically a phase weapon should only damage the bot if you make a called shot to wherever the brain is stored (presumably the pilot's compartment?)

Killer Cyborg wrote:Phase weapons are described as harming living beings, no matter what they are made of.
Borgs are living beings.
Ergo, phase weapons damage borgs, no matter what they are made of.


There's living beings with non-living parts attached to them though.

If you are shooting a headhunter then they would normally be hurt, but if you made a called shot to their bionic arm with a phase pistol, that should not damage the arm. It is not 'them', it is simply a robotic body part which they control.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I find it implausible that a person who is essentially reduced to a brain would have anywhere close to the same number of hit points as a normal human.

I get what you mean but there's a couple ways to interpret that:
*the "life force" thingy (ie why do 90 year old level 15 characters have more HP than 20 year old level 1 ones)
*assume that the phase weapon only wings the brain/spine on a normal main body shot, the majority of it missing since it's fired at the main body which has no organic components, effectively giving the character similar survivability

Killer Cyborg wrote:I'll point out that phase weapons don't bypass inorganic stuff. They damage living beings, no matter what those beings are made of. If there's a living rock-man, or a living metal-man, for example, they're still harmed by phase weapons, even though they're inorganic.

Point taken, I am prone to wrongly using living/organic interchangably sometimes, need to keep in mind silicon life-forms like the Star Hives :)

That said we are told it is:
    "useless against inanimate objects like .. robots"
    "not disruptive enough to damage metals"

If we assume the bodies of borgs are made of metal then they should be immune to them, regardless of being living.

Even if we assume they are made o non-metal stuff, this should at least mean that cyborgs created via brain transplant into robots should be immune to this.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I'd say that having your torso removed should do the trick. Especially if the limbs and skull are also removed.

In Dead Reign zombies get a separate HP pool for their brains after you deplete skull SDC, could write that off as a magical oddity I guess but it gets you wonderin'. I seem to recall severed heads in TTGD (druid spell) having some decent (weirdly IQ-based) HP but again, magic so I can't assume it applies to normal... but it gets one thinking.

Subjugator wrote:I strongly suspect the metals that go into making a borg have carbon in 'em.

Metal elements can't have carbon in them, but they can mix with them to form other stuff, so I suppose they could be composed of metal-carbon alloys.

*wonders where a good place to go quote-mining for borg building components is*

As KC pointed out since Phase don't specify organic, I'm going to instead take the stance that Phase weapons damage non-metal living things. I am not sure if there is evidence that a phase beamer could harm an APS metal character since it says metals aren't affected. Someone with Matter: Expulsion Metal could be hurt, of course, since their flesh is underneath the metal armor.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:we are speculating that prehaps palladium did not use the word organic properly, and in fact simply meant "biological"--because to most people, they think "organic" and "biological" are synonymous.

CJ manages to avoid using it on Phase World 91 at least. The Star Hives should not be targets of the race mentioned on page 69 of Mercenaries.
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Tor wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:Phase weapons are described as harming living beings, no matter what they are made of.
Borgs are living beings.
Ergo, phase weapons damage borgs, no matter what they are made of.


There's living beings with non-living parts attached to them though.


ALL living beings have non-living parts attached to them.
In fact, ALL living beings are ultimately composed of non-living parts.

If you are shooting a headhunter then they would normally be hurt, but if you made a called shot to their bionic arm with a phase pistol, that should not damage the arm. It is not 'them', it is simply a robotic body part which they control.


Incorrect, and not just on a philosophical level, but in actual game terms.
Cybernetics and bionics don't function the same as their robotic equivalents. Telemechanic Mental Operation, for example, will work on a robotic arm. It will also work on a bionic arm that's lying on the table. But once that bionic arm is attached to a living being, Telemechanic Mental Operation stops working on it.
It's different once it's attached to a living being; it's no longer just a machine.
Same with a number of other powers, spells, and abilities, not just with TMO.
The game world does not treat bionics as just robotic body parts that a person physically controls- they treat them as both a machine AND as a part of the person.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I find it implausible that a person who is essentially reduced to a brain would have anywhere close to the same number of hit points as a normal human.


I get what you mean but there's a couple ways to interpret that:
*the "life force" thingy (ie why do 90 year old level 15 characters have more HP than 20 year old level 1 ones)[/quote]

Doesn't matter. The "common sense rules" for firearms is that if you shoot somebody in the head point blank, no matter how many HP they have, they're dead.

*assume that the phase weapon only wings the brain/spine on a normal main body shot, the majority of it missing since it's fired at the main body which has no organic components, effectively giving the character similar survivability


Huh?

Killer Cyborg wrote:I'll point out that phase weapons don't bypass inorganic stuff. They damage living beings, no matter what those beings are made of. If there's a living rock-man, or a living metal-man, for example, they're still harmed by phase weapons, even though they're inorganic.


Point taken, I am prone to wrongly using living/organic interchangably sometimes, need to keep in mind silicon life-forms like the Star Hives :)

That said we are told it is:
    "useless against inanimate objects like .. robots"
    "not disruptive enough to damage metals"

If we assume the bodies of borgs are made of metal then they should be immune to them, regardless of being living.


Again, phase beams damage living creatures no matter what they are made of.
If you have a HU character with APS Metal, and he's hit by a phase beam, he takes damage.
If you have a metal statue that is physically identical to that character except it's not alive, then it doesn't take any damage.
Whether or not the target is metal doesn't matter as much as whether or not the target is alive.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I'd say that having your torso removed should do the trick. Especially if the limbs and skull are also removed.

In Dead Reign zombies get a separate HP pool for their brains after you deplete skull SDC, could write that off as a magical oddity I guess but it gets you wonderin'. I seem to recall severed heads in TTGD (druid spell) having some decent (weirdly IQ-based) HP but again, magic so I can't assume it applies to normal... but it gets one thinking.


For that matter, body armor in Rifts originally just had one damage pool, just like most creatures Hit Points/SDC only had one damage pool.
So back in the day, we decided, "Well, if the entire armor has 60 MDC, then the helmet itself must only have like 10 MDC or so," and we did a lot of headshots early on to take out enemies rather easily.
But then the books printed newer stats for the armor, showing that the listed damage pool was just for the Main Body, and that helmets and limbs each had their own damage pool.

So for all we know, the same COULD hypothetically apply to the damage pools listed for creatures; they could be intended to only represent the main body (in creatures with just the one pool), with any heads and limbs having their own, separate, never-mentioned damage pools.

I am not sure if there is evidence that a phase beamer could harm an APS metal character since it says metals aren't affected.


I'd say that the "damages any living creature, no matter what they're made of" trumps the "cannot damage metal" clause.
For one thing, that way everything makes sense, and the other way, it doesn't.
When choosing between two interpretations, I go with the one that fits as many facts as possible unless proven otherwise.

So it makes no sense to me to assume that:
-The passage that states that ALL living things are damaged, no matter what they are made of is wrong.
-The rule that phase weapons affect Borg's bodies is wrong.
-The rule that Borgs are MDC creatures who lack Hit Points is wrong.
-The rules that cybernetics/bionics aren't treated like normal machines, but more like parts of a person's body, is wrong.

Instead of assuming that:
-The passage that states that phase weapons aren't powerful enough to damage metal is an over-statement referring to nonliving metal objects, not to living beings or body parts composed of metal.

If it helps, though, "most bots, borgs, and power armor are composed of non-magnetic metal alloys, ceramics, and other non-magnetic materials." (CB1 48)
Which indicates that most borgs are at least partially composed of ceramics and other non-metal substances (although, yes, they are at least partially made of non-magnetic metals).
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Tor »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Tor wrote:assume that the phase weapon only wings the brain/spine on a normal main body shot, the majority of it missing since it's fired at the main body which has no organic components, effectively giving the character similar survivability
Huh?

I mean unless we consider a phase blast to be 1-dimensional, although the normal-operating blasts of the first couple guns aren't large enough to affect a radius like the third, they would still feasible affect a surface area of their target.

Doing full damage to something with 10x as much HP as it should have (a brain) would be like doing 1/10th damage to something with something with more realistic HP.

Killer Cyborg wrote:phase beams damage living creatures no matter what they are made of.
If you have a HU character with APS Metal, and he's hit by a phase beam, he takes damage.

I'd say page 122 of DB2 contradicts itself, perhaps by not considering APS Metal guys.
1) "not disruptive enough to damage metals and most other non-living things"
2) "living creatures, no matter what they are made of, still take damage"

APS Metal guys are usually considered both a living creature and metal... if we take this to be a "metal is non living" then perhaps that means that someone using APS metal is technically not alive while transformed?

One way around this problem though: the possibility that these guys are only partially metal rather than completely metal.

DB3 Invincible Guardsman "metal form" only says 'flesh' becomes metal. If WP's any indication:
the soft substance of a human or other animal body that consists of muscle and fat; for vertebrate, this especially includes muscle tissue (skeletal muscle), as opposed to bones and viscera

I think we generally consider this to include skin, but that could mean that bones/organs remain non-metal and provide a target for phase weapons to damage.

HU2p247 says 'a juggernaut of living metal' so there's little wiggle room there as to considering it dead...

But damaging a living being no matter what they're made of doesn't mean you damage every PART of them, so a phase weapon might damage an APS metal person by damaging the non-metal living components. Although "of metal" I'm not sure it says anywhere that APS metal makes you 'entirely' metal so there's still that option to interpret.
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by eliakon »

Tor wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Tor wrote:assume that the phase weapon only wings the brain/spine on a normal main body shot, the majority of it missing since it's fired at the main body which has no organic components, effectively giving the character similar survivability
Huh?

I mean unless we consider a phase blast to be 1-dimensional, although the normal-operating blasts of the first couple guns aren't large enough to affect a radius like the third, they would still feasible affect a surface area of their target.

Doing full damage to something with 10x as much HP as it should have (a brain) would be like doing 1/10th damage to something with something with more realistic HP.

Killer Cyborg wrote:phase beams damage living creatures no matter what they are made of.
If you have a HU character with APS Metal, and he's hit by a phase beam, he takes damage.

I'd say page 122 of DB2 contradicts itself, perhaps by not considering APS Metal guys.
1) "not disruptive enough to damage metals and most other non-living things"
2) "living creatures, no matter what they are made of, still take damage"

APS Metal guys are usually considered both a living creature and metal... if we take this to be a "metal is non living" then perhaps that means that someone using APS metal is technically not alive while transformed?

One way around this problem though: the possibility that these guys are only partially metal rather than completely metal.

DB3 Invincible Guardsman "metal form" only says 'flesh' becomes metal. If WP's any indication:
the soft substance of a human or other animal body that consists of muscle and fat; for vertebrate, this especially includes muscle tissue (skeletal muscle), as opposed to bones and viscera

I think we generally consider this to include skin, but that could mean that bones/organs remain non-metal and provide a target for phase weapons to damage.

HU2p247 says 'a juggernaut of living metal' so there's little wiggle room there as to considering it dead...

But damaging a living being no matter what they're made of doesn't mean you damage every PART of them, so a phase weapon might damage an APS metal person by damaging the non-metal living components. Although "of metal" I'm not sure it says anywhere that APS metal makes you 'entirely' metal so there's still that option to interpret.

Or maybe it just means unliving metal is unaffected and living metal is.
Palladium is explicitly dualist in nature with living things being different from non living things by nature of their being alive. Alive in palladium is a special state that changes things simply by being alive.
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Tor wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Tor wrote:assume that the phase weapon only wings the brain/spine on a normal main body shot, the majority of it missing since it's fired at the main body which has no organic components, effectively giving the character similar survivability
Huh?

I mean unless we consider a phase blast to be 1-dimensional, although the normal-operating blasts of the first couple guns aren't large enough to affect a radius like the third, they would still feasible affect a surface area of their target.

Doing full damage to something with 10x as much HP as it should have (a brain) would be like doing 1/10th damage to something with something with more realistic HP.


Not clearer.

Killer Cyborg wrote:phase beams damage living creatures no matter what they are made of.
If you have a HU character with APS Metal, and he's hit by a phase beam, he takes damage.

I'd say page 122 of DB2 contradicts itself, perhaps by not considering APS Metal guys.
1) "not disruptive enough to damage metals and most other non-living things"
2) "living creatures, no matter what they are made of, still take damage"


I don't have that book, but if you've quoted it accurately there, then I'd say that it's definitely not a contradiction, because the context of the "not disruptive enough to damage metals" statement is in the exact context of the beam's ability to damage non-living things.

HU2p247 says 'a juggernaut of living metal' so there's little wiggle room there as to considering it dead…


Agreed.
Also, there are Machine Men, and Archie, and Warlocks who have transferred their essence to a golem, and transferred intelligence bots, and other examples of living beings that are not made out of flesh and bone.

But damaging a living being no matter what they're made of doesn't mean you damage every PART of them, so a phase weapon might damage an APS metal person by damaging the non-metal living components. Although "of metal" I'm not sure it says anywhere that APS metal makes you 'entirely' metal so there's still that option to interpret.


I wouldn't assume that there are non-metal components to hurt.
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Subjugator »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:And we are speculating that prehaps palladium did not use the word organic properly, and in fact simply meant "biological"--because to most people, they think "organic" and "biological" are synonymous. they are not, and those who think so are technically wrong, but when a majority of people think a word means something other than what it means, you have to accept that maybe "organic"--as used in the book, was actually supposed to be "biological".

This is how the definitions of words change over time. when enough people are using it wrongly, the old definitions become wrong in practice, if not in fact.


Perhaps, but in the absence of specific guidance to the contrary, we must assume they are using the term correctly.

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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Subjugator »

Hm. What about the quasi-transferred intelligences from Japan and Germany? They're moved into a bot.

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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Subjugator wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:And we are speculating that prehaps palladium did not use the word organic properly, and in fact simply meant "biological"--because to most people, they think "organic" and "biological" are synonymous. they are not, and those who think so are technically wrong, but when a majority of people think a word means something other than what it means, you have to accept that maybe "organic"--as used in the book, was actually supposed to be "biological".

This is how the definitions of words change over time. when enough people are using it wrongly, the old definitions become wrong in practice, if not in fact.


Perhaps, but in the absence of specific guidance to the contrary, we must assume they are using the term correctly.

/Sub


Um...no we don't. We can also use a thing called "reading comprehension and logical reasoning" to conclude the book simply made an error. That's what I do. This isn't a legal text. Given it's production history, it is safe to assume that Palladium used "organic" in the "synounym for biological" context.
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Subjugator »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Subjugator wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:And we are speculating that prehaps palladium did not use the word organic properly, and in fact simply meant "biological"--because to most people, they think "organic" and "biological" are synonymous. they are not, and those who think so are technically wrong, but when a majority of people think a word means something other than what it means, you have to accept that maybe "organic"--as used in the book, was actually supposed to be "biological".

This is how the definitions of words change over time. when enough people are using it wrongly, the old definitions become wrong in practice, if not in fact.


Perhaps, but in the absence of specific guidance to the contrary, we must assume they are using the term correctly.

/Sub


Um...no we don't. We can also use a thing called "reading comprehension and logical reasoning" to conclude the book simply made an error. That's what I do. This isn't a legal text. Given it's production history, it is safe to assume that Palladium used "organic" in the "synounym for biological" context.


When reading rules and laws, one should read the words used and apply contextual interpretation only when there is a lack of clarity that causes problems.

Here's a quote from a law blog that closely matches my philosophy in such matters:

NC Medicaid Law Blog wrote:However, the law governing statutory construction and interpretation is clear. Statutory interpretation is the process by which courts interpret legislation.

For years, the U.S. Supreme Court has been explicit on statutory interpretation. “We begin with the familiar canon of statutory construction that the starting point for interpreting a statute is the language of the statute itself. Absent a clearly expressed legislative intention to the contrary, that language must ordinarily be regarded as conclusive.” Consumer Product Safety Commission et al. v. GTE Sylvania, Inc. et al., 447 U.S. 102 (1980).

In other words, if the words of a statute are unambiguous, then the statutory interpretation ends. The clear words of the statute must be followed.

Let me give an example of ambiguous language:

A magazine printed the following: “Rachel Ray enjoys cooking her family and her dogs.” If that were true, Rachel Ray’s family and dogs would be very upset. I am sure what the editor meant to write was “Rachel Ray enjoys cooking, her family, and her dogs.”

It is amazing how important a comma is.


In this case, the word fits; it just doesn't suit what most people think it *should* say, and no guiding authority has stated anything to the contrary.

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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Tor »

Killer Cyborg wrote:I wouldn't assume that there are non-metal components to hurt.

Does an APS power necessarily transform every part of you if it doesn't explicitly indicate that?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:We can also use a thing called "reading comprehension and logical reasoning" to conclude the book simply made an error. That's what I do. This isn't a legal text. Given it's production history, it is safe to assume that Palladium used "organic" in the "synounym for biological" context.

Before this argument goes any further, what "book error" are we even talking about? Would just like to point out as KC identified that Phase Weapons do not specify organic, the mistake was mine.

I say we drop any discussion of whether Palladium sues organic ambiguously until we get a specific usage of it to discuss.

I would like to point out that in Rifts Mercs there is a species out to 'destroy all organic life-forms' so if it meant "all living things" then the species would've committed suicide, no? So at least in that instance I think it is clear that organic is meant to be something narrower.
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Subjugator wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Subjugator wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:And we are speculating that prehaps palladium did not use the word organic properly, and in fact simply meant "biological"--because to most people, they think "organic" and "biological" are synonymous. they are not, and those who think so are technically wrong, but when a majority of people think a word means something other than what it means, you have to accept that maybe "organic"--as used in the book, was actually supposed to be "biological".

This is how the definitions of words change over time. when enough people are using it wrongly, the old definitions become wrong in practice, if not in fact.


Perhaps, but in the absence of specific guidance to the contrary, we must assume they are using the term correctly.

/Sub


Um...no we don't. We can also use a thing called "reading comprehension and logical reasoning" to conclude the book simply made an error. That's what I do. This isn't a legal text. Given it's production history, it is safe to assume that Palladium used "organic" in the "synounym for biological" context.


When reading rules and laws, one should read the words used and apply contextual interpretation only when there is a lack of clarity that causes problems.

Here's a quote from a law blog that closely matches my philosophy in such matters:

NC Medicaid Law Blog wrote:However, the law governing statutory construction and interpretation is clear. Statutory interpretation is the process by which courts interpret legislation.

For years, the U.S. Supreme Court has been explicit on statutory interpretation. “We begin with the familiar canon of statutory construction that the starting point for interpreting a statute is the language of the statute itself. Absent a clearly expressed legislative intention to the contrary, that language must ordinarily be regarded as conclusive.” Consumer Product Safety Commission et al. v. GTE Sylvania, Inc. et al., 447 U.S. 102 (1980).

In other words, if the words of a statute are unambiguous, then the statutory interpretation ends. The clear words of the statute must be followed.

Let me give an example of ambiguous language:

A magazine printed the following: “Rachel Ray enjoys cooking her family and her dogs.” If that were true, Rachel Ray’s family and dogs would be very upset. I am sure what the editor meant to write was “Rachel Ray enjoys cooking, her family, and her dogs.”

It is amazing how important a comma is.


In this case, the word fits; it just doesn't suit what most people think it *should* say, and no guiding authority has stated anything to the contrary.

/Sub


Except we arn't discussing laws. We're discussing a book written by someone who is known to make grammatical errors that would get the editor of a law book lynched by his fellows. so applying that standard here is incorrect. it should be read as something written on a quasi-amature basis, including the useage of slang and colliqualisems.

And as Tor pointed out above, there are other cases of the use of "Organic" where the legal interpretation would render the sentance self-contradictory, which to me more or less proves that the author dosn't actually know what "Organic" means and is using it in the casual sense of biological.
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Tor wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:I wouldn't assume that there are non-metal components to hurt.

Does an APS power necessarily transform every part of you if it doesn't explicitly indicate that?


Not strictly necessarily, but that's the implication.
If Metamorphosis: Dragon transforms you into a dragon, it's safe to assume that your lungs and heart aren't still human.

I would like to point out that in Rifts Mercs there is a species out to 'destroy all organic life-forms' so if it meant "all living things" then the species would've committed suicide, no? So at least in that instance I think it is clear that organic is meant to be something narrower.


Agreed.
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Re: Splugorth Slaver SDC

Unread post by Subjugator »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Except we arn't discussing laws.


Yes, and I said rules and laws.

We're discussing a book written by someone who is known to make grammatical errors that would get the editor of a law book lynched by his fellows. so applying that standard here is incorrect. it should be read as something written on a quasi-amature basis, including the useage of slang and colliqualisems.


1. You think laws are generally well written? Yeah, that's totally not the case.
2. When discussing the RaW, that is exactly the standard to use, because it is the only objective path we have.

And as Tor pointed out above, there are other cases of the use of "Organic" where the legal interpretation would render the sentance self-contradictory, which to me more or less proves that the author dosn't actually know what "Organic" means and is using it in the casual sense of biological.


I saw issues where it would seem to until one applies the entire context to it. For example, it doesn't hurt metal unless it's living metal, etc.

/Sub
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