How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Ley Line walkers, Juicers, Coalition Troops, Samas, Tolkeen, & The Federation Of Magic. Come together here to discuss all things Rifts®.

Moderators: Immortals, Supreme Beings, Old Ones

User avatar
J_Danger
D-Bee
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:55 pm

How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by J_Danger »

The title. My players have a Coalition Death Bringer, with a 6000ft range cannon. What are the anti techies supposed to do? Send dragons? They destroyed a village and everybody in it, except for what witness. Any ideas?
User avatar
Nekira Sudacne
Monk
Posts: 15488
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 7:22 pm
Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Location: 2nd Degree Black Belt of Post Fu
Contact:

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Air Elementals. New Empire has lots of warlocks. they also happen to be completely impervious to all of a death bringers weaponry and are as fast as a Death Bringer to easially keep up.
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon
User avatar
Blue_Lion
Knight
Posts: 6226
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Clone Lab 27

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

J_Danger wrote:The title. My players have a Coalition Death Bringer, with a 6000ft range cannon. What are the anti techies supposed to do? Send dragons? They destroyed a village and everybody in it, except for what witness. Any ideas?

Magic can stop all air travel.
See spell summon and control storm. (not sure but think a millennium tree can do it as well.)
They can magically teleport a boarding party on them. (again the tree should be able to this as well)
People can magically go invisible superior and fly in the path of the transport and board it.

(IF the new empire is the japan empire, they are friendly with the tech and they may come to aid of the anti tech against this atrocity.)

So there are three ways that the non tech can board and or destroy your transport. And that is not even really trying.

Before destroying a village many powerful heroes of the empire would not pay attention to them after such an act they will be hunted down. Teleporting in a squad of samurai or Ninja can spell a bad day for the PCs as the goal of such unit is not to kill the PC but destroy/bring the transport. So they could be hacking at power lines and controls instead of the PCs
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
User avatar
Morik
Explorer
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:08 pm
Location: Lone Star

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by Morik »

All the M-Trees give clairvoyant visions to their defenders too. Hard to beat seeing the future.
User avatar
torjones
Dungeon Crawler
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:03 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by torjones »

J_Danger wrote:The title. My players have a Coalition Death Bringer, with a 6000ft range cannon. What are the anti techies supposed to do? Send dragons? They destroyed a village and everybody in it, except for what witness. Any ideas?


Did the players replace the main gun or was it damaged somehow that reduced its range? I ask because the CPC-100 has a range of 8000' in WB11. If they replaced the turret, what did they replace it with?

In any case, sure, you could send a couple of dragons to take on the Death Bringer, or you could summon a few demons or devils to do the same, so long as they are capable of flight... a group of Tengu could also take it on and have a decent chance of winning... I know they've got some TWs in Japan, surely one of them could magic up a solution? Something along the lines of the Iron Dragonfly maybe, or maybe just a heavily enchanted suit of armor, making it the TW equivalent of a SAMAS...



May The Force be with you always.
Torrey
User avatar
ShadowLogan
Palladin
Posts: 7401
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Location: WI

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

J_Danger wrote:The title. My players have a Coalition Death Bringer, with a 6000ft range cannon. What are the anti techies supposed to do? Send dragons? They destroyed a village and everybody in it, except for what witness. Any ideas?

It may be more accurate to think of them as anti-high-tech than anti-tech since they do use some level of technology (weather they want see it as such or not).

Defenses are likely going to be magically orientated though as others have said.

Other options:
-they do have access to the TW Fire-Breathing Arquebus IINM, so it is possible they could have larger versions (ie cannons).
-I wouldn't rule out low tech black powder rockets (w/magic warheads) either if they are willing to use an Arquebus (TW/magic it may be)
-adopt/develop some version of siege/artillery weapon (like the ballista-type, catapult-type, or something else) as a means of dealing with flying adversaries.
-magically enhanced bows to over come their deficiency in range is an option
-the Samurai are horseman, so the New Empire could have flying mounts
User avatar
Pepsi Jedi
Palladin
Posts: 6955
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:11 am
Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Location: Northern Gun

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

Short answer? Vs a Death Bringer? "Die Alot" it's not nearly as bad as a DHT, but still.

Magic has pitiful range. It just does. Alot of the alternatives proposed wouldn't work very well. "Flying up infront of the transport and boarding it" Really? What type of stupid pilot is just going to sit there? The DHT can zip around. If it's booking around at 400mph, that's going to make a heck of a squished mage.

Using the 8,000 foot range of the main turrent the DBringer could just circle the area and pepper it with unlimited MD blasts. Even the 'smaller' lasers have a range of 4,000 feet wich is beyond small arms distance and beyond most spells.

The Summon Storm will make it a bit more difficult but.. not really. The spell takes 300ppe to cast, and you can't do so while in combat. the CS are going to be shooting at you while you're doing it, b ut assuming you're hidden and you have the 300ppe and get it off. It only 'really' effects people on the ground. The write up gives all sorts of percentiles about running off the road and what not. All it says about Air Travel is that it's extremely hazardous but not impossible.

So the pilot has to make some pilot checks, but not even to the tune of penalties or what not. (As the stuff on the ground clearly stipulates.)


The 'Range' is one of the things almost universally ignored in 'Magic vs tech' fights.

If your spell reaches 30-100 feet and my laser rifle reaches 2000, why am i standing close enough for you ever to have a chance of hitting me?
Image

Lt. Nyota Uhura: I'm impressed. For a moment there, I thought you were just a dumb hick who only has sex with farm animals.

James Tiberius Kirk: Well, not _only_...
User avatar
J_Danger
D-Bee
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:55 pm

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by J_Danger »

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Short answer? Vs a Death Bringer? "Die Alot" it's not nearly as bad as a DHT, but still.

Magic has pitiful range. It just does. Alot of the alternatives proposed wouldn't work very well. "Flying up infront of the transport and boarding it" Really? What type of stupid pilot is just going to sit there? The DHT can zip around. If it's booking around at 400mph, that's going to make a heck of a squished mage.

Using the 8,000 foot range of the main turrent the DBringer could just circle the area and pepper it with unlimited MD blasts. Even the 'smaller' lasers have a range of 4,000 feet wich is beyond small arms distance and beyond most spells.

The Summon Storm will make it a bit more difficult but.. not really. The spell takes 300ppe to cast, and you can't do so while in combat. the CS are going to be shooting at you while you're doing it, b ut assuming you're hidden and you have the 300ppe and get it off. It only 'really' effects people on the ground. The write up gives all sorts of percentiles about running off the road and what not. All it says about Air Travel is that it's extremely hazardous but not impossible.

So the pilot has to make some pilot checks, but not even to the tune of penalties or what not. (As the stuff on the ground clearly stipulates.)


The 'Range' is one of the things almost universally ignored in 'Magic vs tech' fights.

If your spell reaches 30-100 feet and my laser rifle reaches 2000, why am i standing close enough for you ever to have a chance of hitting me?


These are my first thoughts. Lots of great ideas. They've been reckless enough to start to get that sort of attention, also.

I think I was remembering the max altitude on the 6000'

Fun Fact: 50% of Oni Masters (1 in 10 of Oni) have access to Summon Storm, 8 times per day no less!
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by eliakon »

How would the New Empire deal with Air Pirates? In a word, harshly.
I think that some of the first things that would be sent after them would be Ninja, Tengu, and Mages. The mages are likely to send a few air elementals to harass the gunship and try and bring it down.

The Pirates should hope and pray that they don’t shoot up any practitioners of magic though….Japan is a place of honor, duty beyond life, and revenge…..Death Curse is a very in character spell for the mages there to know, and use.

If the pirates manage to defeat the elementals, I would think the next tactic would be to try and use divinations to head them off, and set an ambush at their next attack. Use teleportation magic’s to teleport inside the craft for instance, while using a summoned storm to keep it from escaping quickly. Flying mages (potentially shielded with invisibility and other stealth spells) may attempt to get close enough to the craft while it is ‘shelling’ its target to attack it directly with various spells. These can range from the annoying (call lightning, Volley) to the devastating (Annihilation, Engine Flame Out). Another risk is that the Empire likely has access to people with super powers….and would be willing to use them. And the people so gifted are very likely to have put their ‘god given talents’ at the disposal of the Emperor.

In a worst case scenario (for the pirates) they will destroy enough to be considered a threat to not just the inhabitants, but the empire itself. At which point their friendship and alliance with the Republic of Japan would be….unpleasant. Since the Republic is more than capable of sending a squadron or two of Air Force units to deal with this problem, and likely would offer to do so at the drop of a hat. They don’t need some lunatics making technology look even worse, and the good publicity of the upsides of technology would be priceless.

And don’t forget the H-Brand people would be quite interested in acquiring the ship and its tech for themselves. And the crew if it’s not too much trouble as well.

Short term, air pirates are going to have some good looting. Followed by some really unpleasant days of running away from the Imperial military, and assuming that they can’t get far enough away, a dismal death.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
kaid
Knight
Posts: 4089
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:23 pm

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by kaid »

I believe they have a large number of warlocks and while they may not have the range to directly strike a DH with most of their spells warlocks have some huge radius weather effecting spells and expect a lot of piloting rolls when you are suddenly caught in a hurricane. Air elementals are also a good counter they are faster than the DH, invisible and capable of also using warlock magic.

Dragons and other magic critters capable of teleportation are also a good counter. With an adult dragon you are not going to be seeing it flying at you. One second you are going to see nothing but blue skies and then the next there is a dragon perched onto the outside of your vehicle. Hatchlings are pretty inaccurate and not reliable with their ports although they can also have a chance to pull this maneuver off with some luck. Also with something like an adult dragon if that suddenly lands on top of your DH your pilot is going to have to make a bunch of piloting rolls to maintain speed without crashing with the sudden large amount of weight that appeared out of nowhere.

That said fast moving flying vehicles are one thing a lot of magic users have some issues with due to the range limitations on spells.

What magic can do with pure spell casting though is negate much of the damage DH can do from long range. Walls of earth/ice/air to block missile strikes, impervious to energy to negate laser fire, fog/smoke/darkness clouds to make hitting any target difficult. The other problem is until certain combat magics that are more visible start getting used trying to sort the sheep from the goats as they say from max range to shoot at spell casters to negate them is hard. Now add in illusions and mirror images to that mix and you could go away thinking you killed the heck out of a lot of magic users and wound up hitting nothing at all.
User avatar
Pepsi Jedi
Palladin
Posts: 6955
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:11 am
Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Location: Northern Gun

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

J_Danger wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Short answer? Vs a Death Bringer? "Die Alot" it's not nearly as bad as a DHT, but still.

Magic has pitiful range. It just does. Alot of the alternatives proposed wouldn't work very well. "Flying up infront of the transport and boarding it" Really? What type of stupid pilot is just going to sit there? The DHT can zip around. If it's booking around at 400mph, that's going to make a heck of a squished mage.

Using the 8,000 foot range of the main turrent the DBringer could just circle the area and pepper it with unlimited MD blasts. Even the 'smaller' lasers have a range of 4,000 feet wich is beyond small arms distance and beyond most spells.

The Summon Storm will make it a bit more difficult but.. not really. The spell takes 300ppe to cast, and you can't do so while in combat. the CS are going to be shooting at you while you're doing it, b ut assuming you're hidden and you have the 300ppe and get it off. It only 'really' effects people on the ground. The write up gives all sorts of percentiles about running off the road and what not. All it says about Air Travel is that it's extremely hazardous but not impossible.

So the pilot has to make some pilot checks, but not even to the tune of penalties or what not. (As the stuff on the ground clearly stipulates.)


The 'Range' is one of the things almost universally ignored in 'Magic vs tech' fights.

If your spell reaches 30-100 feet and my laser rifle reaches 2000, why am i standing close enough for you ever to have a chance of hitting me?


These are my first thoughts. Lots of great ideas. They've been reckless enough to start to get that sort of attention, also.

I think I was remembering the max altitude on the 6000'

Fun Fact: 50% of Oni Masters (1 in 10 of Oni) have access to Summon Storm, 8 times per day no less!


But it still does.n't do much to things in the air. Skill rolls? Sure. But they're not even bad, or bad enough to be dictated as the rolls for the stuff on the ground are. You get a good pilot and he just does what he does. One doesn't roll to just do one's job normally. One rolls when there's a chance of failure. Like in a storm. 6000 foot range of that main cannon is hell to overcome.

And anything that the magic sorts could put in the air to try and lesson the range problem, would be hit with the same storm they'd summoned to try and mess with the apc.
Image

Lt. Nyota Uhura: I'm impressed. For a moment there, I thought you were just a dumb hick who only has sex with farm animals.

James Tiberius Kirk: Well, not _only_...
User avatar
Pepsi Jedi
Palladin
Posts: 6955
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:11 am
Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Location: Northern Gun

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

People should also remember these storms and ... lol. Hurricanes they're quick to whip out and try and swat down a flying target with, will do much more damage to their own turf. Hurricanes are nothing to sneeze at. These sort of tactics are like setting yourself on fire with gasoline and trying to hug your enemy to hurt him. If it gets bad there's nothing to stop the APC from just flying off for a bit and coming back later. 300PPE is nothing to sneeze at to try one of these defensive tactics. Then you tear up your own land trying to swat them out of the air. It's a bit self defeating. If you look at the effects the spell does alot worse to those on the ground, than in the air. So while you're 'trying' to effect the Death bringer. You really ARE affecting everything on the ground around you and making it 50 times harder on them. lol. Depending on which version of Palladium magic you're using, you might have just negated the ability for other mages to even 'try' and cast. Remember, mages have to do their hand motions and speak their spells. It expressly says they cannot do that while doing other physical actions. Running, or dodging, parrying in combat. Or... struggeling against windstorms or hurricanes. It's not like you can call winds big enough to swat at a MDC flying transport but your mage buddies can just stand there unaffected by those same winds and cast.

Dragons can surely get up in the air but they don't fly at 400 mph. They don't have 8,000 feet range on their weapon. Dragon comes after one of these things and the pilot just keeps them 7,000 feet infront of the dragon at all times and shoot him with impunity. If the dragon teleports close, he's suddenly not close when the apc moves at 400mph. I don't think their teleport is accurte enough to 'land' on something going 400 mph, but I'll admit I haven't looked at the rules in a bit. I can't think that'd be remotely easy.
Image

Lt. Nyota Uhura: I'm impressed. For a moment there, I thought you were just a dumb hick who only has sex with farm animals.

James Tiberius Kirk: Well, not _only_...
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by eliakon »

Pepsi Jedi wrote:People should also remember these storms and ... lol. Hurricanes they're quick to whip out and try and swat down a flying target with, will do much more damage to their own turf. Hurricanes are nothing to sneeze at. These sort of tactics are like setting yourself on fire with gasoline and trying to hug your enemy to hurt him. If it gets bad there's nothing to stop the APC from just flying off for a bit and coming back later. 300PPE is nothing to sneeze at to try one of these defensive tactics. Then you tear up your own land trying to swat them out of the air. It's a bit self defeating. If you look at the effects the spell does alot worse to those on the ground, than in the air. So while you're 'trying' to effect the Death bringer. You really ARE affecting everything on the ground around you and making it 50 times harder on them. lol. Depending on which version of Palladium magic you're using, you might have just negated the ability for other mages to even 'try' and cast. Remember, mages have to do their hand motions and speak their spells. It expressly says they cannot do that while doing other physical actions. Running, or dodging, parrying in combat. Or... struggeling against windstorms or hurricanes. It's not like you can call winds big enough to swat at a MDC flying transport but your mage buddies can just stand there unaffected by those same winds and cast.

Dragons can surely get up in the air but they don't fly at 400 mph. They don't have 8,000 feet range on their weapon. Dragon comes after one of these things and the pilot just keeps them 7,000 feet infront of the dragon at all times and shoot him with impunity. If the dragon teleports close, he's suddenly not close when the apc moves at 400mph. I don't think their teleport is accurte enough to 'land' on something going 400 mph, but I'll admit I haven't looked at the rules in a bit. I can't think that'd be remotely easy.

I would assume that the craft is not flying at 400mph 24/7. Especially if they are going to be shooting stuff, unless they are doing a flyby strafing they will have to slow down. And if the dragon chooses to teleport INSIDE your craft then it doesn't matter how fast your going.

Storms and control rolls....I would say that if its 'difficult but not impossible' that is pretty much an invitation to the GM to assign the penalty's they feel are appropriate. To be honest the spell is a pure cut and paste from PF and BTS....where flying was pretty much not an issue that was really thought about. I would agree that huge storms will have consequences of course. But the smaller sized ones will just have a limited effect, especially if used as an attack when not near a village or town.

That's why I think that Air Elementals, Teleportation, and the Republic Air Force are likely to be the big threats
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
Incriptus
Hero
Posts: 1255
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 2:01 am
Comment: Hey, relaaaax. Pretend it's a game. Maybe it'll even be fun
Shoot the tubes, Dogmeat!
Location: Washington State

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by Incriptus »

When you fly at 400 miles per hour, you're moving 586.666667 feet per second. Your 8000 foot range is gone before the end of your first melee round. Meaning you're going to have to slow down to consistantly fire at a single target. Unless you're firing on someone immediately below you, you can't be at your 8000 foot range. Of course the rules are sloppy but I would tell you that moving at that speed trying to shoot a man size target is shooting wild. Unless you're simply spraying a small town to level buildings you're going to be lower and you're going to be going slower. At which point thoses slower creatures may be able to keep up. Seeing as how they out number you, there is again a reasonable chance they'll manage to cut you off, perhaps even grab on ... but all that is likely irrelevant

The answer is that they take cover. You fly by several times at max range and speed strafing buildings, killing women and children and those people without magic to defend themselves. Those who did have magic make it to an under ground shelter. Their fear eventually turns to grief, their grief into anger, anger into thoughts of revenge. They turn towards assassinations and smaller skirmishes where their magic becomes advantagous. Your pilot is having a barbacue, goes inside to use the bathroom, how does he fight a ninja with his pants around his ankles.
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by eliakon »

Incriptus wrote:When you fly at 400 miles per hour, you're moving 586.666667 feet per second. Your 8000 foot range is gone before the end of your first melee round. Meaning you're going to have to slow down to consistantly fire at a single target. Unless you're firing on someone immediately below you, you can't be at your 8000 foot range. Of course the rules are sloppy but I would tell you that moving at that speed trying to shoot a man size target is shooting wild. Unless you're simply spraying a small town to level buildings you're going to be lower and you're going to be going slower. At which point thoses slower creatures may be able to keep up. Seeing as how they out number you, there is again a reasonable chance they'll manage to cut you off, perhaps even grab on ... but all that is likely irrelevant

The answer is that they take cover. You fly by several times at max range and speed strafing buildings, killing women and children and those people without magic to defend themselves. Those who did have magic make it to an under ground shelter. Their fear eventually turns to grief, their grief into anger, anger into thoughts of revenge. They turn towards assassinations and smaller skirmishes where their magic becomes advantagous. Your pilot is having a barbacue, goes inside to use the bathroom, how does he fight a ninja with his pants around his ankles.

Or how well does your pilot handle that thing at 400mph when a pissed off dragon teleports inside the cocpit with him and thumps him up side the head?
Or your gunner suddenly gets zapped with a death curse
Or a couple of air elementals decide to play 'catch the lightning bolt' with your ship
or....
And before you scoff at the damage those air elementals can do, remember if you stop for repairs then your opening yourself up for an attack from those 'slower forces' AND may have your ship in a non-combat/non-flying state.....
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
Blue_Lion
Knight
Posts: 6226
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Clone Lab 27

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Short answer? Vs a Death Bringer? "Die Alot" it's not nearly as bad as a DHT, but still.

Magic has pitiful range. It just does. Alot of the alternatives proposed wouldn't work very well. "Flying up infront of the transport and boarding it" Really? What type of stupid pilot is just going to sit there? The DHT can zip around. If it's booking around at 400mph, that's going to make a heck of a squished mage.

Using the 8,000 foot range of the main turrent the DBringer could just circle the area and pepper it with unlimited MD blasts. Even the 'smaller' lasers have a range of 4,000 feet wich is beyond small arms distance and beyond most spells.

The Summon Storm will make it a bit more difficult but.. not really. The spell takes 300ppe to cast, and you can't do so while in combat. the CS are going to be shooting at you while you're doing it, b ut assuming you're hidden and you have the 300ppe and get it off. It only 'really' effects people on the ground. The write up gives all sorts of percentiles about running off the road and what not. All it says about Air Travel is that it's extremely hazardous but not impossible.

So the pilot has to make some pilot checks, but not even to the tune of penalties or what not. (As the stuff on the ground clearly stipulates.)


The 'Range' is one of the things almost universally ignored in 'Magic vs tech' fights.

If your spell reaches 30-100 feet and my laser rifle reaches 2000, why am i standing close enough for you ever to have a chance of hitting me?

A spell with 20 mile range does not need to be cast in combat. As a groups defense the PPE will not likely be an issue to come up with for a village of say 50 people.

You cant target invisibly superior foes with your main gun or see them to drive around them. Using magic you can have a spell with no bleed over damage from being rammed. So lets say a group of tengo are aided by a mage they can easily be an obstacle to your fling death machine.

(Note he never said they where CS and giving the location they are not likely to be an official CS force.)

Also the tech empire is on friendly terms with them and could send in something to shoot you down.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
User avatar
Blue_Lion
Knight
Posts: 6226
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Clone Lab 27

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Pepsi Jedi wrote:People should also remember these storms and ... lol. Hurricanes they're quick to whip out and try and swat down a flying target with, will do much more damage to their own turf. Hurricanes are nothing to sneeze at. These sort of tactics are like setting yourself on fire with gasoline and trying to hug your enemy to hurt him. If it gets bad there's nothing to stop the APC from just flying off for a bit and coming back later. 300PPE is nothing to sneeze at to try one of these defensive tactics. Then you tear up your own land trying to swat them out of the air. It's a bit self defeating. If you look at the effects the spell does alot worse to those on the ground, than in the air. So while you're 'trying' to effect the Death bringer. You really ARE affecting everything on the ground around you and making it 50 times harder on them. lol. Depending on which version of Palladium magic you're using, you might have just negated the ability for other mages to even 'try' and cast. Remember, mages have to do their hand motions and speak their spells. It expressly says they cannot do that while doing other physical actions. Running, or dodging, parrying in combat. Or... struggeling against windstorms or hurricanes. It's not like you can call winds big enough to swat at a MDC flying transport but your mage buddies can just stand there unaffected by those same winds and cast.

Dragons can surely get up in the air but they don't fly at 400 mph. They don't have 8,000 feet range on their weapon. Dragon comes after one of these things and the pilot just keeps them 7,000 feet infront of the dragon at all times and shoot him with impunity. If the dragon teleports close, he's suddenly not close when the apc moves at 400mph. I don't think their teleport is accurte enough to 'land' on something going 400 mph, but I'll admit I haven't looked at the rules in a bit. I can't think that'd be remotely easy.

The spell states that they stop all air travel has a 20 mile range and undefined AOE. The damage from the storm would be allot less than you raising the village if you read the spell.

Shure dragons can not fly at 400 miles per how but they can teleport. A collision (body block tackle) with an adult dragon is going to bring a screeching halt to speeding travel and the dragon is likely to be alive and can hang on as it bites and claws its way in.

I do not think your fling transport is a free pass to just level a whole empire by itself.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
User avatar
Pepsi Jedi
Palladin
Posts: 6955
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:11 am
Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Location: Northern Gun

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

eliakon wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:People should also remember these storms and ... lol. Hurricanes they're quick to whip out and try and swat down a flying target with, will do much more damage to their own turf. Hurricanes are nothing to sneeze at. These sort of tactics are like setting yourself on fire with gasoline and trying to hug your enemy to hurt him. If it gets bad there's nothing to stop the APC from just flying off for a bit and coming back later. 300PPE is nothing to sneeze at to try one of these defensive tactics. Then you tear up your own land trying to swat them out of the air. It's a bit self defeating. If you look at the effects the spell does alot worse to those on the ground, than in the air. So while you're 'trying' to effect the Death bringer. You really ARE affecting everything on the ground around you and making it 50 times harder on them. lol. Depending on which version of Palladium magic you're using, you might have just negated the ability for other mages to even 'try' and cast. Remember, mages have to do their hand motions and speak their spells. It expressly says they cannot do that while doing other physical actions. Running, or dodging, parrying in combat. Or... struggeling against windstorms or hurricanes. It's not like you can call winds big enough to swat at a MDC flying transport but your mage buddies can just stand there unaffected by those same winds and cast.

Dragons can surely get up in the air but they don't fly at 400 mph. They don't have 8,000 feet range on their weapon. Dragon comes after one of these things and the pilot just keeps them 7,000 feet infront of the dragon at all times and shoot him with impunity. If the dragon teleports close, he's suddenly not close when the apc moves at 400mph. I don't think their teleport is accurte enough to 'land' on something going 400 mph, but I'll admit I haven't looked at the rules in a bit. I can't think that'd be remotely easy.

I would assume that the craft is not flying at 400mph 24/7. Especially if they are going to be shooting stuff, unless they are doing a flyby strafing they will have to slow down. And if the dragon chooses to teleport INSIDE your craft then it doesn't matter how fast your going.

Storms and control rolls....I would say that if its 'difficult but not impossible' that is pretty much an invitation to the GM to assign the penalty's they feel are appropriate. To be honest the spell is a pure cut and paste from PF and BTS....where flying was pretty much not an issue that was really thought about. I would agree that huge storms will have consequences of course. But the smaller sized ones will just have a limited effect, especially if used as an attack when not near a village or town.

That's why I think that Air Elementals, Teleportation, and the Republic Air Force are likely to be the big threats


Why wouldn't they be flying at 400? You could be doing laps, ciricling the area at 400mph, Varying the pattern. Assuming they're going to slow down to let you get on board is pretty silly. Would they be doing it 24/7? No. On attack runs? Sure.

Again, I don't have the books open in front of me but teleporting to something moving 400mph is going to be pretty hard. Inside? Even harder if possible at all. Probably a GM call but that's like teleporting ontop of a bullet to kick it out of the way.

As for the storms. Sure GMs could apply penalties, but why is there two or three paragraphs of what happens on the ground but nothing what so ever of in the air? Palladium does do alot of cut and paste but .... *shrugs* it still is what it is.

Tech and Range are devastating vs magic. Just like stealth and ambush make magic deadly.
Image

Lt. Nyota Uhura: I'm impressed. For a moment there, I thought you were just a dumb hick who only has sex with farm animals.

James Tiberius Kirk: Well, not _only_...
User avatar
Pepsi Jedi
Palladin
Posts: 6955
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:11 am
Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Location: Northern Gun

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

Incriptus wrote:When you fly at 400 miles per hour, you're moving 586.666667 feet per second. Your 8000 foot range is gone before the end of your first melee round. Meaning you're going to have to slow down to consistantly fire at a single target. Unless you're firing on someone immediately below you, you can't be at your 8000 foot range. Of course the rules are sloppy but I would tell you that moving at that speed trying to shoot a man size target is shooting wild. Unless you're simply spraying a small town to level buildings you're going to be lower and you're going to be going slower. At which point thoses slower creatures may be able to keep up. Seeing as how they out number you, there is again a reasonable chance they'll manage to cut you off, perhaps even grab on ... but all that is likely irrelevant

The answer is that they take cover. You fly by several times at max range and speed strafing buildings, killing women and children and those people without magic to defend themselves. Those who did have magic make it to an under ground shelter. Their fear eventually turns to grief, their grief into anger, anger into thoughts of revenge. They turn towards assassinations and smaller skirmishes where their magic becomes advantagous. Your pilot is having a barbacue, goes inside to use the bathroom, how does he fight a ninja with his pants around his ankles.



only if you're flying in a straight line. If you're circling the area, you can fly at speed and shoot to the middle of your circle (and circles don't need to be perfect, they can vary in altitude and curvature. It's not like you're circling in a perfect circle so they can 'lead' and shoot where you're going to be after a couple of seconds, but they could try)

In theory though you could circle an area at speed and keep the middle of your route in range at all times, bobbing up and down in and out a bit and laying down continuous fire.
Image

Lt. Nyota Uhura: I'm impressed. For a moment there, I thought you were just a dumb hick who only has sex with farm animals.

James Tiberius Kirk: Well, not _only_...
User avatar
Pepsi Jedi
Palladin
Posts: 6955
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:11 am
Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Location: Northern Gun

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

eliakon wrote:
Incriptus wrote:When you fly at 400 miles per hour, you're moving 586.666667 feet per second. Your 8000 foot range is gone before the end of your first melee round. Meaning you're going to have to slow down to consistantly fire at a single target. Unless you're firing on someone immediately below you, you can't be at your 8000 foot range. Of course the rules are sloppy but I would tell you that moving at that speed trying to shoot a man size target is shooting wild. Unless you're simply spraying a small town to level buildings you're going to be lower and you're going to be going slower. At which point thoses slower creatures may be able to keep up. Seeing as how they out number you, there is again a reasonable chance they'll manage to cut you off, perhaps even grab on ... but all that is likely irrelevant

The answer is that they take cover. You fly by several times at max range and speed strafing buildings, killing women and children and those people without magic to defend themselves. Those who did have magic make it to an under ground shelter. Their fear eventually turns to grief, their grief into anger, anger into thoughts of revenge. They turn towards assassinations and smaller skirmishes where their magic becomes advantagous. Your pilot is having a barbacue, goes inside to use the bathroom, how does he fight a ninja with his pants around his ankles.

Or how well does your pilot handle that thing at 400mph when a pissed off dragon teleports inside the cocpit with him and thumps him up side the head?
Or your gunner suddenly gets zapped with a death curse
Or a couple of air elementals decide to play 'catch the lightning bolt' with your ship
or....
And before you scoff at the damage those air elementals can do, remember if you stop for repairs then your opening yourself up for an attack from those 'slower forces' AND may have your ship in a non-combat/non-flying state.....


1) Unless you can show me something that says a dragon can teleport inside a vehicle moving 400mph, I'm going to say at very best, that's a gm call if not impossible.
2) Death curse has a range of wht?
3) Well the ship is MDC. Can your air elementals (which are conditional and assuming there's a warlock with that spell at the location to use them) but can they shoot down the ship before it's cannon takes out it's targets?
Image

Lt. Nyota Uhura: I'm impressed. For a moment there, I thought you were just a dumb hick who only has sex with farm animals.

James Tiberius Kirk: Well, not _only_...
User avatar
Pepsi Jedi
Palladin
Posts: 6955
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:11 am
Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Location: Northern Gun

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

Blue_Lion wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Short answer? Vs a Death Bringer? "Die Alot" it's not nearly as bad as a DHT, but still.

Magic has pitiful range. It just does. Alot of the alternatives proposed wouldn't work very well. "Flying up infront of the transport and boarding it" Really? What type of stupid pilot is just going to sit there? The DHT can zip around. If it's booking around at 400mph, that's going to make a heck of a squished mage.

Using the 8,000 foot range of the main turrent the DBringer could just circle the area and pepper it with unlimited MD blasts. Even the 'smaller' lasers have a range of 4,000 feet wich is beyond small arms distance and beyond most spells.

The Summon Storm will make it a bit more difficult but.. not really. The spell takes 300ppe to cast, and you can't do so while in combat. the CS are going to be shooting at you while you're doing it, b ut assuming you're hidden and you have the 300ppe and get it off. It only 'really' effects people on the ground. The write up gives all sorts of percentiles about running off the road and what not. All it says about Air Travel is that it's extremely hazardous but not impossible.

So the pilot has to make some pilot checks, but not even to the tune of penalties or what not. (As the stuff on the ground clearly stipulates.)


The 'Range' is one of the things almost universally ignored in 'Magic vs tech' fights.

If your spell reaches 30-100 feet and my laser rifle reaches 2000, why am i standing close enough for you ever to have a chance of hitting me?

A spell with 20 mile range does not need to be cast in combat. As a groups defense the PPE will not likely be an issue to come up with for a village of say 50 people.

You cant target invisibly superior foes with your main gun or see them to drive around them. Using magic you can have a spell with no bleed over damage from being rammed. So lets say a group of tengo are aided by a mage they can easily be an obstacle to your fling death machine.

(Note he never said they where CS and giving the location they are not likely to be an official CS force.)

Also the tech empire is on friendly terms with them and could send in something to shoot you down.


What's the 20 mile range for the storm have to do with it? if they're using it, it's where the APC is goign to be, in this case right over your village so you're hitting yourself and your village with the storm to try and hit the apc.

PPE is an issue when it comes to casting a 300ppe spell for effect. Impossible? No. A flick of the wrist, we do it every other melee for fun? no.

As for cherry picking invisibility superior and flying and some other spell that lets you survive a 400mph ram from a MDC flying tank. Well. I'm guessing by the rules it's 'possible' but unlikely to have that combo all over the place. (Just as having pet warlocks all ovver is unlikely)
Image

Lt. Nyota Uhura: I'm impressed. For a moment there, I thought you were just a dumb hick who only has sex with farm animals.

James Tiberius Kirk: Well, not _only_...
User avatar
Pepsi Jedi
Palladin
Posts: 6955
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:11 am
Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Location: Northern Gun

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

Blue_Lion wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:People should also remember these storms and ... lol. Hurricanes they're quick to whip out and try and swat down a flying target with, will do much more damage to their own turf. Hurricanes are nothing to sneeze at. These sort of tactics are like setting yourself on fire with gasoline and trying to hug your enemy to hurt him. If it gets bad there's nothing to stop the APC from just flying off for a bit and coming back later. 300PPE is nothing to sneeze at to try one of these defensive tactics. Then you tear up your own land trying to swat them out of the air. It's a bit self defeating. If you look at the effects the spell does alot worse to those on the ground, than in the air. So while you're 'trying' to effect the Death bringer. You really ARE affecting everything on the ground around you and making it 50 times harder on them. lol. Depending on which version of Palladium magic you're using, you might have just negated the ability for other mages to even 'try' and cast. Remember, mages have to do their hand motions and speak their spells. It expressly says they cannot do that while doing other physical actions. Running, or dodging, parrying in combat. Or... struggeling against windstorms or hurricanes. It's not like you can call winds big enough to swat at a MDC flying transport but your mage buddies can just stand there unaffected by those same winds and cast.

Dragons can surely get up in the air but they don't fly at 400 mph. They don't have 8,000 feet range on their weapon. Dragon comes after one of these things and the pilot just keeps them 7,000 feet infront of the dragon at all times and shoot him with impunity. If the dragon teleports close, he's suddenly not close when the apc moves at 400mph. I don't think their teleport is accurte enough to 'land' on something going 400 mph, but I'll admit I haven't looked at the rules in a bit. I can't think that'd be remotely easy.

The spell states that they stop all air travel has a 20 mile range and undefined AOE. The damage from the storm would be allot less than you raising the village if you read the spell.

Shure dragons can not fly at 400 miles per how but they can teleport. A collision (body block tackle) with an adult dragon is going to bring a screeching halt to speeding travel and the dragon is likely to be alive and can hang on as it bites and claws its way in.

I do not think your fling transport is a free pass to just level a whole empire by itself.


The summon storm doesn't say they stop all air travel. I've not looked up the hurricane one, but if you cast the hurricane on your own village, the APC just.. flys off and waits as the hurricane tears your village up, and when it's done can fly back in. Right? If you cast hurricane again... You've got a second hurricane tearing up your village and you fly away till it's over?

Teleporting infront of a flying apc going 400mph is going to hurt the dragon. If the dragon holds on. You shoot it. Right?
Image

Lt. Nyota Uhura: I'm impressed. For a moment there, I thought you were just a dumb hick who only has sex with farm animals.

James Tiberius Kirk: Well, not _only_...
User avatar
ShadowLogan
Palladin
Posts: 7401
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Location: WI

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Short answer? Vs a Death Bringer? "Die Alot" it's not nearly as bad as a DHT, but still.

Magic has pitiful range. It just does. Alot of the alternatives proposed wouldn't work very well. "Flying up infront of the transport and boarding it" Really? What type of stupid pilot is just going to sit there? The DHT can zip around. If it's booking around at 400mph, that's going to make a heck of a squished mage.

Using the 8,000 foot range of the main turrent the DBringer could just circle the area and pepper it with unlimited MD blasts. Even the 'smaller' lasers have a range of 4,000 feet wich is beyond small arms distance and beyond most spells.

I do agree about the range of magic vs tech in terms of offensive capabilities. Those in the New Empire will be at a disadvantage in terms of retaliation as listed.

With that said though if magic is being used in a defensive role to block the attackers. That won't depend on magic's shorter range and could reduce the effectiveness of the DB Flying APC. Given defensive spells like:
-Circle Magic has a Protective barrier that can't be breached in SDC universe (not sure about the MDC universe conversion), and yes I know its not in Rifts Earth. Its more of an example of what is available generally.
-Iron Wood all/key buildings, (while buildings will be destroyed it, it will likely take more than 1 shot w/the projectile cannon which has a finite payload, and the lasers will require getting in even closer).
-Illusion type Magic (or even simple low tech/natural positioning versions of this approach) to conceal them from the air so they can't target accurately. Note one of the FoM factions is stated to use illusions to conceal their city so it is possible w/n canon for this approach to work. There are a variety of spells that apply (Cloud of Smoke, Illusionary Forest, Cloak of Darkness, etc)
-Deflect Spell in place on defender(s), it does allow them to parry bullets and laser blasts, so theoretically that 8000ft range cannon is being deflected. If done at extreme range the more advanced version won't be able to target them
-Energy Field and similar "armor" spells (Wall of Defense, Impenetrable Wall of Force, etc)

Of course Magic and Psionic Characters who can Astral Project on to the material plane move at a speed of Mach 1/670mph IINM. It also means they can close to within range of the DB Flying APC or even bypass the APC and go for the crew directly and use additional powers to interact with the material plane (which they can do) to defend their homes. Granted this option has limitations and such, but it is an option to get those shorter range spells into range with near impunity to pure tech users (while they could target the Astral Projectors body, they would have to know where it is or get lucky).

Pepsi Jedi wrote:If your spell reaches 30-100 feet and my laser rifle reaches 2000, why am i standing close enough for you ever to have a chance of hitting me?

Circumstances may force a tech user to sacrifice their range advantage though. That obviously isn't going to be as much a factor here, but in general it does apply. Those tech users can be forced to give up their range advantage if the environment does not cooperate (like going inside, natural obstructions like hills, mountains, clouds, etc).

elikon wrote:.Death Curse is a very in character spell for the mages there to know, and use.

I'm not sure Death Curse can be used here. Doesn't it require you to know who did the actual dead. Some one in a vehicle may be suitably "blocked" from view so could not be impacted by this spell.

elikon wrote:se teleportation magic’s to teleport inside the craft for instance,

That would violate several restrictions on teleportation IINM.
User avatar
Slight001
Hero
Posts: 856
Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 5:52 pm

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by Slight001 »

ShadowLogan wrote:
elikon wrote:.Death Curse is a very in character spell for the mages there to know, and use.

I'm not sure Death Curse can be used here. Doesn't it require you to know who did the actual dead. Some one in a vehicle may be suitably "blocked" from view so could not be impacted by this spell.

I believe you are correct...Death curse requires the user know who killed him... that isn't possible in this case as anyone including an AI could be firing at them.
"If your plan relies upon chance to succeed, then you've already failed."
"Sometimes to achieve the greatest good, one must commit great evil."
User avatar
Nekira Sudacne
Monk
Posts: 15488
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 7:22 pm
Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Location: 2nd Degree Black Belt of Post Fu
Contact:

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Incriptus wrote:When you fly at 400 miles per hour, you're moving 586.666667 feet per second. Your 8000 foot range is gone before the end of your first melee round. Meaning you're going to have to slow down to consistantly fire at a single target. Unless you're firing on someone immediately below you, you can't be at your 8000 foot range. Of course the rules are sloppy but I would tell you that moving at that speed trying to shoot a man size target is shooting wild. Unless you're simply spraying a small town to level buildings you're going to be lower and you're going to be going slower. At which point thoses slower creatures may be able to keep up. Seeing as how they out number you, there is again a reasonable chance they'll manage to cut you off, perhaps even grab on ... but all that is likely irrelevant

The answer is that they take cover. You fly by several times at max range and speed strafing buildings, killing women and children and those people without magic to defend themselves. Those who did have magic make it to an under ground shelter. Their fear eventually turns to grief, their grief into anger, anger into thoughts of revenge. They turn towards assassinations and smaller skirmishes where their magic becomes advantagous. Your pilot is having a barbacue, goes inside to use the bathroom, how does he fight a ninja with his pants around his ankles.

Or how well does your pilot handle that thing at 400mph when a pissed off dragon teleports inside the cocpit with him and thumps him up side the head?
Or your gunner suddenly gets zapped with a death curse
Or a couple of air elementals decide to play 'catch the lightning bolt' with your ship
or....
And before you scoff at the damage those air elementals can do, remember if you stop for repairs then your opening yourself up for an attack from those 'slower forces' AND may have your ship in a non-combat/non-flying state.....


1) Unless you can show me something that says a dragon can teleport inside a vehicle moving 400mph, I'm going to say at very best, that's a gm call if not impossible.


The earth itself moves at 67,000 miles per hour through space. I'm pretty sure adding 400 MPH to that won't make a difference to teleportation's accuracy. otherwise every teleport would make you wind up somewhere in space because the planet moved out from under you.

2) Death curse has a range of what?


100 miles per level of experiance.

3) Well the ship is MDC. Can your air elementals (which are conditional and assuming there's a warlock with that spell at the location to use them) but can they shoot down the ship before it's cannon takes out it's targets?


The air elemental could cast snow storm, a spell which limits all vision and optical sensors to a maximum range of 20 feet. cast by an air elemental it would cover a 3000' radius, just cast it and it would be impossible for the deaths head to get a lock on any target--it would be firing wildly.

Or you know, they could just cast Tornado, sucking up the deaths head and trapping it helplessly while it takes 3d6*10 damage per round and keeping it from moving or aiming at anything while they pound it with call lightning.

Elemental magic has a pretty rough divide. at levels 1-4 most elemental spells are no more and often less generally useful than most mages. level 5-8 spells are equal to the highest level level 12-15 magic for far cheeper costs and can drastically reshape the outcome of clashes of entire armies.
Last edited by Nekira Sudacne on Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon
User avatar
torjones
Dungeon Crawler
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:03 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by torjones »

Pepsi Jedi wrote:1) Unless you can show me something that says a dragon can teleport inside a vehicle moving 400mph, I'm going to say at very best, that's a gm call if not impossible.
2) Death curse has a range of what?
3) Well the ship is MDC. Can your air elementals (which are conditional and assuming there's a warlock with that spell at the location to use them) but can they shoot down the ship before it's cannon takes out it's targets?


1) Can you show me where in the rule book it says that humans need to breath? Otherwise, I'm going to say at the very best, that's a GM call if not impossible. Ok, now that we've gotten the silliness out of the way, a Dragon's Natural Teleport skill is not 100% accurate, despite of it being an instinctive ability. Most dragons start somewhere around 20-40% depending on species. So it's already a skill check, just have the GM assign a penalty to the skill, 1% for every 10 MPH sounds reasonable, unless it's something that they do regularly anyway, add a bit more penalty because the dragon is unlikely to know the standard lay out of the interior of the vehicle he wants to teleport into, and you've got a check that is likely to fail for most dragons, representing the difficulty of the task, which I agree should be difficult, but not impossible.
2) Death Curse has a 100 mile range, but it's the final act of the casting mage before they die as the spend their remaining life force to cast the spell.
3) While I agree that a Major Air Elemental would be a near ideal monster to throw at an enemy that specialized in kinetic attacks, like the CS, getting them into attack range isn't such a difficulty as they get:
Elemental Magic: All Air Elemental Magic equal to a 10th level Warlock in regard to damage and duration, but on Rifts Earth, at 100 times the normal range of a 1st level spell.

So a wind blast with a level 1 range of 1000' is 100,000' for a major air elemental. Sure, it might take a while at 2d4x10+30 to work through the armor, but they should be able to do it. Or use call lightning. Range is only 10,000' but that's still farther than the death bringer's 8000'. Tornado works too...

May The Force be with you always.
Torrey
User avatar
Pepsi Jedi
Palladin
Posts: 6955
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:11 am
Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Location: Northern Gun

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

torjones wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:1) Unless you can show me something that says a dragon can teleport inside a vehicle moving 400mph, I'm going to say at very best, that's a gm call if not impossible.
2) Death curse has a range of what?
3) Well the ship is MDC. Can your air elementals (which are conditional and assuming there's a warlock with that spell at the location to use them) but can they shoot down the ship before it's cannon takes out it's targets?


1) Can you show me where in the rule book it says that humans need to breath? Otherwise, I'm going to say at the very best, that's a GM call if not impossible. Ok, now that we've gotten the silliness out of the way,


That's the thing. It's not 'just sillyness'. There are rules for magic and for teleportation in rifts. Other than drowning or vacume, there's not rules for just breathing standing around. You know this because...

torjones wrote: a Dragon's Natural Teleport skill is not 100% accurate, despite of it being an instinctive ability. Most dragons start somewhere around 20-40% depending on species. So it's already a skill check, just have the GM assign a penalty to the skill, 1% for every 10 MPH sounds reasonable, unless it's something that they do regularly anyway, add a bit more penalty because the dragon is unlikely to know the standard lay out of the interior of the vehicle he wants to teleport into, and you've got a check that is likely to fail for most dragons, representing the difficulty of the task, which I agree should be difficult, but not impossible.


That could work. Honestly I haven't looked it up to judge thhat sort of thing, but yes. It'd be hard, if not very nearly impossible.

torjones wrote:
2) Death Curse has a 100 mile range, but it's the final act of the casting mage before they die as the spend their remaining life force to cast the spell.


Yeah. Not really a viable thing there. ANd someone else mentioned needing to know your target? (Or something?)

torjones wrote:
3) While I agree that a Major Air Elemental would be a near ideal monster to throw at an enemy that specialized in kinetic attacks, like the CS, getting them into attack range isn't such a difficulty as they get:
Elemental Magic: All Air Elemental Magic equal to a 10th level Warlock in regard to damage and duration, but on Rifts Earth, at 100 times the normal range of a 1st level spell.

So a wind blast with a level 1 range of 1000' is 100,000' for a major air elemental. Sure, it might take a while at 2d4x10+30 to work through the armor, but they should be able to do it. Or use call lightning. Range is only 10,000' but that's still farther than the death bringer's 8000'. Tornado works too...


Again back to the sort of spells/storms that are going to damage the target area to try and take down a flyer. Cast storm, or HURRICANE! or TORNADOES!! Sorta komakazi sort of attacks that are ultimately self defeating.

Another thing that's being hand waved is, that people are assuming unlimited magic personel here. Flights of dragons and what not. The op mentioned a village. Yes a hurricane can easily destroy a village. It can destroy entire cities. Yes a tornado can destroy village, and have often wiped out towns. The wind storms described by the other spell probably isn't going to do good things for a village either, (Unless it's MDC construction, but I'm assuming if they don't have high tech to fight the high tech they don't have tons of MDC building materials. but that is just a guess).

But yeah. "Oh well we'll send the dragons to teleport into the thing" Every village there has a dragon that can try that?
"We'll send tons of elementals" You've warlocks of that level in every village?

Could there be 'a' dragon or 'a' warlock or two in 'a' village? Sure. Is there going to be those things in every village? Unlikely.

For air elementals themselves. 100 times range? That's not a typo? (Doesn't know. Seldom plays mages and usually only looks up mage stuff to make sure people aren't cheating.)
Image

Lt. Nyota Uhura: I'm impressed. For a moment there, I thought you were just a dumb hick who only has sex with farm animals.

James Tiberius Kirk: Well, not _only_...
User avatar
Nekira Sudacne
Monk
Posts: 15488
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 7:22 pm
Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Location: 2nd Degree Black Belt of Post Fu
Contact:

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Pepsi Jedi wrote:But yeah. "Oh well we'll send the dragons to teleport into the thing" Every village there has a dragon that can try that?
"We'll send tons of elementals" You've warlocks of that level in every village?

Could there be 'a' dragon or 'a' warlock or two in 'a' village? Sure. Is there going to be those things in every village? Unlikely.

For air elementals themselves. 100 times range? That's not a typo? (Doesn't know. Seldom plays mages and usually only looks up mage stuff to make sure people aren't cheating.)


Well yes, most villages would just be screwed if someone in a 100 ton war machine showed up. as it should be. you asked what COULD be done, and of course that comes down to a "Well, hypothetically they might have an air warlork or ley line walker that's at a high level, or maybe a dragon" because that's the only thing that WOULD help. in most cases, the answer is "They are helpless, just like 90% of places in rifts earth would be vs. a deaths head, unless they have an exceptionally powerful champion around to protect them".

also, the 100x normal range is right there in Dark conversions under elementals.
Last edited by Nekira Sudacne on Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by eliakon »

Slight001 wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
elikon wrote:.Death Curse is a very in character spell for the mages there to know, and use.

I'm not sure Death Curse can be used here. Doesn't it require you to know who did the actual dead. Some one in a vehicle may be suitably "blocked" from view so could not be impacted by this spell.

I believe you are correct...Death curse requires the user know who killed him... that isn't possible in this case as anyone including an AI could be firing at them.

The curse affects the person that the mage believes is responsible for their death. They do not have to know more than that they blame them. "I blame the one shooting me" is sufficient to get the gunner, "I blame the pirates leader" would get the team leader etc.
Range is 100 miles per level for most mages, and infinite/other dimensions for Shifters and Temporal Raiders.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
flatline
Knight
Posts: 6153
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:05 pm
Location: Memphis, TN

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by flatline »

torjones wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:1) Unless you can show me something that says a dragon can teleport inside a vehicle moving 400mph, I'm going to say at very best, that's a gm call if not impossible.
2) Death curse has a range of what?
3) Well the ship is MDC. Can your air elementals (which are conditional and assuming there's a warlock with that spell at the location to use them) but can they shoot down the ship before it's cannon takes out it's targets?


1) Can you show me where in the rule book it says that humans need to breath? Otherwise, I'm going to say at the very best, that's a GM call if not impossible. Ok, now that we've gotten the silliness out of the way, a Dragon's Natural Teleport skill is not 100% accurate, despite of it being an instinctive ability. Most dragons start somewhere around 20-40% depending on species. So it's already a skill check, just have the GM assign a penalty to the skill, 1% for every 10 MPH sounds reasonable, unless it's something that they do regularly anyway, add a bit more penalty because the dragon is unlikely to know the standard lay out of the interior of the vehicle he wants to teleport into, and you've got a check that is likely to fail for most dragons, representing the difficulty of the task, which I agree should be difficult, but not impossible.
2) Death Curse has a 100 mile range, but it's the final act of the casting mage before they die as the spend their remaining life force to cast the spell.
3) While I agree that a Major Air Elemental would be a near ideal monster to throw at an enemy that specialized in kinetic attacks, like the CS, getting them into attack range isn't such a difficulty as they get:
Elemental Magic: All Air Elemental Magic equal to a 10th level Warlock in regard to damage and duration, but on Rifts Earth, at 100 times the normal range of a 1st level spell.

So a wind blast with a level 1 range of 1000' is 100,000' for a major air elemental. Sure, it might take a while at 2d4x10+30 to work through the armor, but they should be able to do it. Or use call lightning. Range is only 10,000' but that's still farther than the death bringer's 8000'. Tornado works too...


Call Lightning automatically hits, so the air elemental would do 1d6x10 MD per attack with no chance of missing with a range of 10,000 feet. That's a pretty effective air defense.

--flatline
I don't care about canon answers. I'm interested in good, well-reasoned answers and, perhaps, a short discussion of how that answer is supported or contradicted by canon.

If I don't provide a book and page number, then don't assume that I'm describing canon. I'll tell you if I'm describing canon.
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by eliakon »

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
torjones wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:1) Unless you can show me something that says a dragon can teleport inside a vehicle moving 400mph, I'm going to say at very best, that's a gm call if not impossible.
2) Death curse has a range of what?
3) Well the ship is MDC. Can your air elementals (which are conditional and assuming there's a warlock with that spell at the location to use them) but can they shoot down the ship before it's cannon takes out it's targets?


1) Can you show me where in the rule book it says that humans need to breath? Otherwise, I'm going to say at the very best, that's a GM call if not impossible. Ok, now that we've gotten the silliness out of the way,


That's the thing. It's not 'just sillyness'. There are rules for magic and for teleportation in rifts. Other than drowning or vacume, there's not rules for just breathing standing around. You know this because...

torjones wrote: a Dragon's Natural Teleport skill is not 100% accurate, despite of it being an instinctive ability. Most dragons start somewhere around 20-40% depending on species. So it's already a skill check, just have the GM assign a penalty to the skill, 1% for every 10 MPH sounds reasonable, unless it's something that they do regularly anyway, add a bit more penalty because the dragon is unlikely to know the standard lay out of the interior of the vehicle he wants to teleport into, and you've got a check that is likely to fail for most dragons, representing the difficulty of the task, which I agree should be difficult, but not impossible.


That could work. Honestly I haven't looked it up to judge thhat sort of thing, but yes. It'd be hard, if not very nearly impossible.

There was a great thread on this. Ran a few hundred pages before getting locked.
As I recall the final, official answer was that you CAN teleport in vehicles. the Phase World books make it clear that teleportation and mystic portal are used to board space ships in flight. I am going to assume that flying space ships move faster than ANYTHING CS built, and thus that such a comparatively slow ship can be boarded

torjones wrote:
3) While I agree that a Major Air Elemental would be a near ideal monster to throw at an enemy that specialized in kinetic attacks, like the CS, getting them into attack range isn't such a difficulty as they get:
Elemental Magic: All Air Elemental Magic equal to a 10th level Warlock in regard to damage and duration, but on Rifts Earth, at 100 times the normal range of a 1st level spell.

So a wind blast with a level 1 range of 1000' is 100,000' for a major air elemental. Sure, it might take a while at 2d4x10+30 to work through the armor, but they should be able to do it. Or use call lightning. Range is only 10,000' but that's still farther than the death bringer's 8000'. Tornado works too...


Again back to the sort of spells/storms that are going to damage the target area to try and take down a flyer. Cast storm, or HURRICANE! or TORNADOES!! Sorta komakazi sort of attacks that are ultimately self defeating. [/quote]
Tornado the spell is actually rather small 100' across and range of 600' (60,000' for that elemental)

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Another thing that's being hand waved is, that people are assuming unlimited magic personel here.

No people are assuming that the Empire Military is responding to Air Pirates who are massacring villages (as per the OPs question)
Or do you just assume that the CS lets mage PCs wipe out an outpost or town and does nothing? NO the CS will send in troops to deal with it. In this case the Empire is sending in troops. Mages (who make up 2% of the population....which means that yes every village IS likely to have a mage or two 12% is priests and spiritualists, so again you are very likely to find a priest or two in any town. Hope they roll poorly on their prayers, and miracles) etc.
The MOST likely response, as has been mentioned is that they will summon some air elementals and sick them on you
The second most likely response is that their allies in the New Republic will send a squadron of Flame Clouds to shoot you down
The THIRD most likely is that they will ask for help from their dragon allies

This is not 'every town and villages defenses' this is 'The Imperial response to threats"
Adventurers are not immune to summoning out the army simply because they are PCs.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
Pepsi Jedi
Palladin
Posts: 6955
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:11 am
Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Location: Northern Gun

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:But yeah. "Oh well we'll send the dragons to teleport into the thing" Every village there has a dragon that can try that?
"We'll send tons of elementals" You've warlocks of that level in every village?

Could there be 'a' dragon or 'a' warlock or two in 'a' village? Sure. Is there going to be those things in every village? Unlikely.

For air elementals themselves. 100 times range? That's not a typo? (Doesn't know. Seldom plays mages and usually only looks up mage stuff to make sure people aren't cheating.)


Well yes, most villages would just be screwed if someone in a 100 ton war machine showed up. as it should be. you asked what COULD be done, and of course that comes down to a "Well, hypothetically they might have an air warlork or ley line walker that's at a high level, or maybe a dragon" because that's the only thing that WOULD help. in most cases, the answer is "They are helpless, just like 90% of places in rifts earth would be vs. a deaths head, unless they have an exceptionally powerful champion around to protect them".

also, the 100x normal range is right there in Dark conversions under elementals.


Yeah. It sounded weird so I looked it up. I found the catch that people like to overlook.

"Send an elemental!" and the 100X normal range of a lvl 1 warlock.

Powerful. Powerful indeed. If you overlook what it takes to get one.

1) You have to be the right kind of warlock. In this case an air warlock
2) You have to be 9th level or better to even attempt it. Now, while some GMs play fast and loose with the exp, if you look through the books, the ground shaking heros, the generals, the leaders of pretty much everything. Are usually between lvl 7 and lvl 10 or so. So in universe, 9+lvl warlocks are going to be pretty few and far between.
3) You can only try once per day and it's emotionally and physically taxing.
4) Summoning the greater elemental (The one with the 100X range etc) Gives you half the percentile chance.
5) That summing chance is pretty low. 5% per lvl. Now assuming you've found your totally BA lvl 9 warlock that's a 22.5% chance of actually being able to do it.

So, the 'defense' here, is built around 1) having access too a pretty ground shaking level Warlock of the proper flavor. (lvl 9 or greater) having him in your village when the attack comes, have him start the summons Which still takes 2 to 12minutes. Drains him or her, and has a 1 in 5 chance of succeeding.

Now, if I remember my magy limitations, they have to cast which takes the hand motions and speaking the spell. This can be interrupted by anything causing the mage to move around or dodge, or get punched in the head what not.

That's going to be pretty hard to hold off for 8 to 48 melees straight as your village is getting bombarded from the air with megadamage blasts.

Now assuming the persons in the APC don't go 'Hey!! That guy in white seems to be casting a spell. Light him up" He might not get shot at first, or second, or third, or tenth or 20th attack, but those guys are going to be blasting every melee action for 8 melees minimum, if not the full 48 melees. That's alot of blasts raining down, to never hit close enough to disrupt the spell to even try for that 1 in 5 chance of success.

So at the very very best, when your village is attacked. You need that super warlock, of the right flavor on call, and need 2 to 12 minutes of him casting the summoning spell, to get your 1 in 5 chance of getting the major elemental to come, to try and defend... .what ever is left of your village after the APC has been blowing the crap out of it for 2 to 12 minutes. Assuming that some how the warlock didn't get interrupted with the village being vaporized around him and was never hit randomly by the blasts or debris etc. and never had to start his spell over due to interruption.

If it works.... nice defense (Of what's left) But that's a pretty big string of logistics needed.
Image

Lt. Nyota Uhura: I'm impressed. For a moment there, I thought you were just a dumb hick who only has sex with farm animals.

James Tiberius Kirk: Well, not _only_...
User avatar
torjones
Dungeon Crawler
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:03 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by torjones »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:1) Unless you can show me something that says a dragon can teleport inside a vehicle moving 400mph, I'm going to say at very best, that's a gm call if not impossible.


The earth itself moves at 67,000 miles per hour through space. I'm pretty sure adding 400 MPH to that won't make a difference to teleportation's accuracy. otherwise every teleport would make you wind up somewhere in space because the planet moved out from under you.


I'm pretty sure that most people, including myself, are thinking that teleporting from one (relatively) stationary place, to another (relatively) stationary place, is the way that nearly everyone believes that the spell was designed, and while it doesn't rule out moving from one (relatively) stationary place to a (relatively) moving place, it is not something that most teleporting characters would have lots of experience with, and thus, different from the normal every-day teleport, if there is such a thing. The objective speed of anything on earth, including the earth itself, is irrelevant in the game, otherwise every time you tripped and fell you'd wind up taking 670d6 worth of impact damage from running into a moving object as the planet attempted to move through your squishy cream filling. I don't think there's a gaming system out there that doesn't ignore entirely the objective and deal nearly entirely with the relative. Hell, most people aren't even conscious of the fact that the planet is traveling around the sun ridiculously fast, unless given cause to consider it outside of their normal world view, let alone how fast out star system is traveling through the galaxy, or how fast our galaxy is traveling through the universe... I don't recall seeing rules elsewhere about teleportation, so If they exist, please point me at them so I can refer to them in the future as well?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:The air elemental could cast snow storm, a spell which limits all vision and optical sensors to a maximum range of 20 feet. cast by an air elemental it would cover a 3000' radius, just cast it two or three times and it would be impossible for the deaths head to get a lock on any target--it would be firing wildly.


I do like this tactic as a delaying tactic, but feel I should point out that, If I was in the transport, I don't think it would make a significant difference... We still have dead-reckoning and other navigational equipment, so we know where we are, and we know where the town is. Considering that we're already a mile away, and circling at 300+ mph, the gunners are already "shooting wild" and are only really hoping to hit the town itself, not really expecting to hit anything specific within the town. Not being able to see with the Mk 1 eyeball or telescopic vision is largely irrelevant at that point, simply switch to infra-red and engage targets as normal...

Of course all of that completely ignores that pilots and gunners on AC-130 Spectre Gunships found that they are extremely accurate while orbiting their targets, accurate enough that you can target individual buildings, fleeing vehicles, and even running people (with sufficient Kentucky windage). Also, the accuracy of the minigun is not something your average Joe is going to believe until it's seen for oneself. I've seen video from Afghanistan where the pilot authorizes the gunner to fire at a trio of running people and the gunner on the 105mm put a round at each of their feet, and incidently knocking down a tree at the same time. Of course, being the comedians that they were, there were jokes about the tree on the audio. :)

May The Force be with you always.
Torrey
User avatar
Nekira Sudacne
Monk
Posts: 15488
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 7:22 pm
Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Location: 2nd Degree Black Belt of Post Fu
Contact:

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:But yeah. "Oh well we'll send the dragons to teleport into the thing" Every village there has a dragon that can try that?
"We'll send tons of elementals" You've warlocks of that level in every village?

Could there be 'a' dragon or 'a' warlock or two in 'a' village? Sure. Is there going to be those things in every village? Unlikely.

For air elementals themselves. 100 times range? That's not a typo? (Doesn't know. Seldom plays mages and usually only looks up mage stuff to make sure people aren't cheating.)


Well yes, most villages would just be screwed if someone in a 100 ton war machine showed up. as it should be. you asked what COULD be done, and of course that comes down to a "Well, hypothetically they might have an air warlork or ley line walker that's at a high level, or maybe a dragon" because that's the only thing that WOULD help. in most cases, the answer is "They are helpless, just like 90% of places in rifts earth would be vs. a deaths head, unless they have an exceptionally powerful champion around to protect them".

also, the 100x normal range is right there in Dark conversions under elementals.


Yeah. It sounded weird so I looked it up. I found the catch that people like to overlook.

"Send an elemental!" and the 100X normal range of a lvl 1 warlock.

Powerful. Powerful indeed. If you overlook what it takes to get one.

1) You have to be the right kind of warlock. In this case an air warlock
2) You have to be 9th level or better to even attempt it. Now, while some GMs play fast and loose with the exp, if you look through the books, the ground shaking heros, the generals, the leaders of pretty much everything. Are usually between lvl 7 and lvl 10 or so. So in universe, 9+lvl warlocks are going to be pretty few and far between.
3) You can only try once per day and it's emotionally and physically taxing.
4) Summoning the greater elemental (The one with the 100X range etc) Gives you half the percentile chance.
5) That summing chance is pretty low. 5% per lvl. Now assuming you've found your totally BA lvl 9 warlock that's a 22.5% chance of actually being able to do it.

So, the 'defense' here, is built around 1) having access too a pretty ground shaking level Warlock of the proper flavor. (lvl 9 or greater) having him in your village when the attack comes, have him start the summons Which still takes 2 to 12minutes. Drains him or her, and has a 1 in 5 chance of succeeding.

Now, if I remember my magy limitations, they have to cast which takes the hand motions and speaking the spell. This can be interrupted by anything causing the mage to move around or dodge, or get punched in the head what not.

That's going to be pretty hard to hold off for 8 to 48 melees straight as your village is getting bombarded from the air with megadamage blasts.

Now assuming the persons in the APC don't go 'Hey!! That guy in white seems to be casting a spell. Light him up" He might not get shot at first, or second, or third, or tenth or 20th attack, but those guys are going to be blasting every melee action for 8 melees minimum, if not the full 48 melees. That's alot of blasts raining down, to never hit close enough to disrupt the spell to even try for that 1 in 5 chance of success.

So at the very very best, when your village is attacked. You need that super warlock, of the right flavor on call, and need 2 to 12 minutes of him casting the summoning spell, to get your 1 in 5 chance of getting the major elemental to come, to try and defend... .what ever is left of your village after the APC has been blowing the crap out of it for 2 to 12 minutes. Assuming that some how the warlock didn't get interrupted with the village being vaporized around him and was never hit randomly by the blasts or debris etc. and never had to start his spell over due to interruption.

If it works.... nice defense (Of what's left) But that's a pretty big string of logistics needed.


The warlock can get a +20% to +30% boost by performing the summoning at a nexus or other "Mystical place" (dosn't have to be a nexus or ley line but can have some other mystic significance", however the time involved means that the most effective elemental defence is to actually do rotating summons on a constant basis. the rules say that Elementals generally don't mind serving their "Little brothers" for a few weeks at a time but eventually get antsy or even violent if they are held for too long, but you can summon 1-2 elementals a month and just trade them out every few weeks without being in any danger of rebellion from any one elemental.

As far as casting limitations, Warlocks actually get a break because they aren't proper mages at all, they are a priest variant that are simply granted power by the elemental lord of the element in question (sometimes two), and they only have to chant the name of their lord (the power word for the element in question) for the casting time in order to invoke the spell. no gestures or concentration required, alibet chanting "Cherubot-kyn"(Power word: Air) for 3-6 seconds is a bit of a tongue twister
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by eliakon »

A shifter can summon an elemental at level 1 just for what its worth.
There is an herb magic item that summons air elementals
Not to mention the various other ways to summon them...
So yeah, you wont have a million air elementals running around. But a military shouldn't have ANY trouble conjuring a few and ordering them after your ship. In fact it would take a massive handwave of the system to explain why they are NOT doing this.

Just to be clear. This is not an examination of the average villages defense. The average village has a handful of mages, spiritualists, and priests as its only defense, and they are unlikely to have a ton of great stuff. Though the mages may have death curse, and that is a threat. A serious one. If a mage sees their family die at the hands of this tech monster, they are in the right frame of mind to cast it with their death and take that monsters gunner, or pilot, or leader with them.
This is an examination of what the Empire will do when the stories get to the authorities. THOSE authorities are going to send elementals after your butt so fast that you will think they were using time magic. THOSE authorities are going to ask their mutual friends in the Republic for help. THOSE authorities are going to pray to their gods. THAT is the stuff that you have to worry about, not the villagers.
Its no different than anyplace ELSE in Rifts Earth, its not the peasants that you worry about, its the authorities response to your abuse of those peasants that you worry about.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
torjones
Dungeon Crawler
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:03 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by torjones »

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Again back to the sort of spells/storms that are going to damage the target area to try and take down a flyer. Cast storm, or HURRICANE! or TORNADOES!! Sorta komakazi sort of attacks that are ultimately self defeating.

Another thing that's being hand waved is, that people are assuming unlimited magic personnel here. Flights of dragons and what not. The op mentioned a village. Yes a hurricane can easily destroy a village. It can destroy entire cities. Yes a tornado can destroy village, and have often wiped out towns. The wind storms described by the other spell probably isn't going to do good things for a village either, (Unless it's MDC construction, but I'm assuming if they don't have high tech to fight the high tech they don't have tons of MDC building materials. but that is just a guess).

But yeah. "Oh well we'll send the dragons to teleport into the thing" Every village there has a dragon that can try that?
"We'll send tons of elementals" You've warlocks of that level in every village?

Could there be 'a' dragon or 'a' warlock or two in 'a' village? Sure. Is there going to be those things in every village? Unlikely.

For air elementals themselves. 100 times range? That's not a typo? (Doesn't know. Seldom plays mages and usually only looks up mage stuff to make sure people aren't cheating.)


Nope, the range thing isn't a typo (that I know of anyway). straight from the Dark Conversions book p110.

As for Hurricane, I rather agree with you, since it covers a large AoE however, Tornado? Not so much.

Book of Magic, p 65 wrote:The Warlock can maneuver the tornado as he desires in any direction.


And since a major air elemental knows all air elemental spells at 10th level proficiency (except for the range thing)... well, there you go.

Also, since your target Death Bringer isn't in town, why would your Tornado be in town? It'll be a mile away beating the stuffings out of the Death Bringer...

I for one don't expect any town in the Empire to have multiple warlocks, dragons, or anything else. Depending on just how small that community is, I'd be surprised to find any there at any time, outside an emergency. However, if i was the governor of a particular province, and had a group of such beings as retainers/employees, I would certainly order them into the area to assist with dealing with the raiders. Sure, the raiders may get a week or two in a given area before heavy assistance arrives in the area, once it does, it shouldn't be too long before something interesting happens. That's assuming that there isn't an Oni-Hunting (read: Adventurers) party anywhere in the area and takes care of the problem before the reinforcements get there. Why would you need to have a dragon or warlock or other mage in every village? Figure out the pattern of attacks (even if it's just "That Area") and deploy your forces accordingly. You deal with them like you deal with any guerrilla raiding party.

As for MDC building materials, I'd just use magic to keep the evil technology away... Simplest answer is Ironwood. The Japanese primarily build out of wood anyway...

May The Force be with you always.
Torrey
User avatar
torjones
Dungeon Crawler
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:03 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by torjones »

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Now, if I remember my mage limitations, they have to cast which takes the hand motions and speaking the spell. This can be interrupted by anything causing the mage to move around or dodge, or get punched in the head what not.

That's going to be pretty hard to hold off for 8 to 48 melees straight as your village is getting bombarded from the air with megadamage blasts.


As with any time you're casting such a spell, why would you wait until the last possible second to summon your Elemental? You're a warlock, act like one. Before combat begins, you summon your elemental and do the warlock - elemental brotherhood bonding thing and get it to stick around long enough to defend the town/whatever from the raiders. I've never played a warlock, but I'm sure that those who have would know exactly how to word the request to get it to work, and even if the player didn't, the character certainly does.

Bad guys show up, elemental goes "SMITE!!!" bad guys die.

And as someone also pointed out, a Summoner/Shifter can do the same thing, and at much lower level...

May The Force be with you always.
Torrey
User avatar
Pepsi Jedi
Palladin
Posts: 6955
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:11 am
Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Location: Northern Gun

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:But yeah. "Oh well we'll send the dragons to teleport into the thing" Every village there has a dragon that can try that?
"We'll send tons of elementals" You've warlocks of that level in every village?

Could there be 'a' dragon or 'a' warlock or two in 'a' village? Sure. Is there going to be those things in every village? Unlikely.

For air elementals themselves. 100 times range? That's not a typo? (Doesn't know. Seldom plays mages and usually only looks up mage stuff to make sure people aren't cheating.)


Well yes, most villages would just be screwed if someone in a 100 ton war machine showed up. as it should be. you asked what COULD be done, and of course that comes down to a "Well, hypothetically they might have an air warlork or ley line walker that's at a high level, or maybe a dragon" because that's the only thing that WOULD help. in most cases, the answer is "They are helpless, just like 90% of places in rifts earth would be vs. a deaths head, unless they have an exceptionally powerful champion around to protect them".

also, the 100x normal range is right there in Dark conversions under elementals.


Yeah. It sounded weird so I looked it up. I found the catch that people like to overlook.

"Send an elemental!" and the 100X normal range of a lvl 1 warlock.

Powerful. Powerful indeed. If you overlook what it takes to get one.

1) You have to be the right kind of warlock. In this case an air warlock
2) You have to be 9th level or better to even attempt it. Now, while some GMs play fast and loose with the exp, if you look through the books, the ground shaking heros, the generals, the leaders of pretty much everything. Are usually between lvl 7 and lvl 10 or so. So in universe, 9+lvl warlocks are going to be pretty few and far between.
3) You can only try once per day and it's emotionally and physically taxing.
4) Summoning the greater elemental (The one with the 100X range etc) Gives you half the percentile chance.
5) That summing chance is pretty low. 5% per lvl. Now assuming you've found your totally BA lvl 9 warlock that's a 22.5% chance of actually being able to do it.

So, the 'defense' here, is built around 1) having access too a pretty ground shaking level Warlock of the proper flavor. (lvl 9 or greater) having him in your village when the attack comes, have him start the summons Which still takes 2 to 12minutes. Drains him or her, and has a 1 in 5 chance of succeeding.

Now, if I remember my magy limitations, they have to cast which takes the hand motions and speaking the spell. This can be interrupted by anything causing the mage to move around or dodge, or get punched in the head what not.

That's going to be pretty hard to hold off for 8 to 48 melees straight as your village is getting bombarded from the air with megadamage blasts.

Now assuming the persons in the APC don't go 'Hey!! That guy in white seems to be casting a spell. Light him up" He might not get shot at first, or second, or third, or tenth or 20th attack, but those guys are going to be blasting every melee action for 8 melees minimum, if not the full 48 melees. That's alot of blasts raining down, to never hit close enough to disrupt the spell to even try for that 1 in 5 chance of success.

So at the very very best, when your village is attacked. You need that super warlock, of the right flavor on call, and need 2 to 12 minutes of him casting the summoning spell, to get your 1 in 5 chance of getting the major elemental to come, to try and defend... .what ever is left of your village after the APC has been blowing the crap out of it for 2 to 12 minutes. Assuming that some how the warlock didn't get interrupted with the village being vaporized around him and was never hit randomly by the blasts or debris etc. and never had to start his spell over due to interruption.

If it works.... nice defense (Of what's left) But that's a pretty big string of logistics needed.


The warlock can get a +20% to +30% boost by performing the summoning at a nexus or other "Mystical place" (dosn't have to be a nexus or ley line but can have some other mystic significance", however the time involved means that the most effective elemental defence is to actually do rotating summons on a constant basis. the rules say that Elementals generally don't mind serving their "Little brothers" for a few weeks at a time but eventually get antsy or even violent if they are held for too long, but you can summon 1-2 elementals a month and just trade them out every few weeks without being in any danger of rebellion from any one elemental.

As far as casting limitations, Warlocks actually get a break because they aren't proper mages at all, they are a priest variant that are simply granted power by the elemental lord of the element in question (sometimes two), and they only have to chant the name of their lord (the power word for the element in question) for the casting time in order to invoke the spell. no gestures or concentration required, alibet chanting "Cherubot-kyn"(Power word: Air) for 3-6 seconds is a bit of a tongue twister


You aren't likely to have a villiage built on a nexus. Layline storms and rifts and stuff make that, in general a bad place to place a settlement.

As for 'Oh have um on a rotating basis'. I read a bit of it. you're basically summoning a minor god, it's not a trivial thing. yes they'll stay around for a few days with out trying to kill the warlock, but they get mad. It also goes on at length that the elementals don't think the way people do and they'd see nothing wrong with killing everyone in the village themselves if they were in the way or something. It's part of their limitations, their truly alien mindset. This came up in the SoT. Something to the effect that they used minor elementals to patrol the northern approach but because of their orders, they never reported the CS forces up there that came through the hivelands, because they weren't told specifically what to look out for.

If you summon that minor god, you better have something for it to do, as if you don't it might decide to see how much blood comes out of different humans when you pull off their arms and legs, or being an air elemental might just summon up a hurricane or tornado for spits and giggles.

Having one just hanging around indefinably seems to be more dangerous to the village than not. And that warlock has to sleep sometime.

You still have the other limitations. The level requirement, the flavor of warlock requirement, the time requirement, and the percentile chance. At 22% per try one per day, you could just simply fail when that APC came flying towards the village. I don't buy the 'keeping a major elemental on tap' type plan at all.

I don't know about warlock casting. can you point me to a page where it says they're unlike other mages? Cuz "oh they don't have to gesture or do anything but say one word" seems weird. I read the casting proceedure for normal mages the other day. Where's the stuff specificly for warlocks, that say that spell interruption is different for them?
Image

Lt. Nyota Uhura: I'm impressed. For a moment there, I thought you were just a dumb hick who only has sex with farm animals.

James Tiberius Kirk: Well, not _only_...
User avatar
Pepsi Jedi
Palladin
Posts: 6955
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:11 am
Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Location: Northern Gun

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

torjones wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Now, if I remember my mage limitations, they have to cast which takes the hand motions and speaking the spell. This can be interrupted by anything causing the mage to move around or dodge, or get punched in the head what not.

That's going to be pretty hard to hold off for 8 to 48 melees straight as your village is getting bombarded from the air with megadamage blasts.


As with any time you're casting such a spell, why would you wait until the last possible second to summon your Elemental? You're a warlock, act like one. Before combat begins, you summon your elemental and do the warlock - elemental brotherhood bonding thing and get it to stick around long enough to defend the town/whatever from the raiders. I've never played a warlock, but I'm sure that those who have would know exactly how to word the request to get it to work, and even if the player didn't, the character certainly does.

Bad guys show up, elemental goes "SMITE!!!" bad guys die.

And as someone also pointed out, a Summoner/Shifter can do the same thing, and at much lower level...


You wouldn't have them around on tap, because they're dangerous magical alien monsters. The write up goes out of it's way to tell the player this. That an elemental would see absolutely nothing wrong will killing your village if it got bored, because it doesn't care about them, and more over doesn't understand death, and possesses no morality. They're weird and from another dimension and just don't understand human or humanish like things. It's like the commercial with the joke about the Djini. "I want a million bucks!" and the Djini shrugs and POOF the garage is full of male deer, and the driveway and up and down the street the deer are all looking around surprised. Dealing with elementls is like that. "oh well my char would know" Yeah well you better role play it. Because that's exactly the sort of problem you're going to have. "Protect the town from all threats" and the elementali hears someone spanking their kid, it might blow the house down trying to kill the one guy. Or it might concider fire a threat to the town because it can burn people and buildings so anyone it sees using a fire to cook or heat their home in the village might be attacked and killed by the elemental. This could go a million ways, hobbled only by the imagination of the GM. The book directly dictates that they -are- that alien and do not possess the same sort of processing of action/consiquence as we do. The thing might just decide that the best way to protect all the people is to kill them so that noone else can, Just to call it done. "They are dead. Now noone can kill them" or "They are dead, now they've no need to fear death. Release me"

People are also not making a differentiation between a minor elemental and a major. It's only the major that comes with the perks that were stipulated previously. ANd they come with severe limitations as well. Not the least of which is 'What happens when somone figures it out and shoots the Warlock in the face with a cannon blast and suddenly there's a minor god free to do whatever it wants.
Image

Lt. Nyota Uhura: I'm impressed. For a moment there, I thought you were just a dumb hick who only has sex with farm animals.

James Tiberius Kirk: Well, not _only_...
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by eliakon »

Why are you assuming that all the warlocks and summoners in the empire are stupid?
No seriously. Your argument seems to boil down to "well no one would be smart enough to actually prepare for this, because no one else in the past three hundred years has possibly ever attacked the empire with an aircraft so none of the MILLIONS Tens of Thousands of magic users, and hundreds of thousands of priests in the empire would ever have given any thought to how to set up a contingency against it."
That's not an argument that's simply hand waving away magic as inconvenient
The simple fact is that warlocks can, and by canon DO summon their brothers to protect them
The simple fact is that warlocks can, and do by canon give their brothers orders like 'protect this town' or 'destroy encroaching aircraft'
The simple fact is that warlocks can, and do by canon give their brothers orders to go back home when the warlock dies
The simple fact is that no you DONT have to have 'something for the elemental to do' its happy to help its brother. And when its not smiting airships in can be helping chase storms around, destroy oni, or any of a thousand other tasks.

SO yes. The logical answer to "what will the Empire do" is "send in air elementals"
They have the resources to do so
They have the knowledge to do so
They presumably have the experience to do so
And the proposed solution "send in an air elemental" WORKS (Heck even a MINOR air elemental would be a major threat to the ship let a lone a pack of three or four of them. If you don't believe me try running the scenario some time.)
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by eliakon »

And as for teleportation

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=143613&hilit=teleport
Note the last post (which provides a canon example of teleporting into space ships from a planet. I will assume the ships are flying at LEAST 400mph if they are in orbit )
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
Library Ogre
Palladium Books® Freelance Writer
Posts: 9800
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2001 1:01 am
Comment: My comments do not necessarily represent the views of Palladium Books.
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by Library Ogre »

It's a little bit expensive, but I imagine giving a Heavenly Speaking Flute to a Warlock would be a good way to get rapid response elementals. The warlock summmons the elemental (via the flute's powers), then uses the Bond of Brotherhood to request that the air elemental destroy that flying thing over there, then politely thanks it and banishes it back to the elemental planes. Non-warlocks can also do this, but warlocks are more "correct". Doesn't even really have to be an air warlock for things like that.

Even more expensive (and a bit less effective, though without requiring a warlock as much) is the Powder of the Divine Winds... 200mph winds are going to make any flying fortress difficult to pilot.

The New Empire has more than a hundred thousand practitioners of magic, and more than a million priests and professional psychics. Really, it's kinda like Chi-Town... you've got so many psychics around that you're going to have plenty of warning from things like Clairvoyance that a surprise attack is going to be very hard to pull off.

(Heck, 5% of their population "Likes and uses high technology"; 340,000 people. Now, that might not mean that every village has a long-range missile launcher... but as a proportion of their population, that's 10 times bigger than the US has in the military, and enough to man a few air stations and other things that the New Japanese Amish don't like, for the good of their people.)
-overproduced by Martin Hannett

When I see someone "fisking" these days my first inclination is to think "That person doesn't have much to say, and says it in volume." -John Scalzi
Happiness is a long block list.
If you don't want to be vilified, don't act like a villain.
The Megaverse runs on vibes.
All Palladium Articles
Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
User avatar
Incriptus
Hero
Posts: 1255
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 2:01 am
Comment: Hey, relaaaax. Pretend it's a game. Maybe it'll even be fun
Shoot the tubes, Dogmeat!
Location: Washington State

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by Incriptus »

eliakon wrote:And as for teleportation

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=143613&hilit=teleport
Note the last post (which provides a canon example of teleporting into space ships from a planet. I will assume the ships are flying at LEAST 400mph if they are in orbit )


<Teasing>
What if those ships were in geostationary orbit, so they didn't appear to be moving at all?
</Teasing>

But all teasing aside that is probably a fair point. Perception regarding speed and distance is likely a big deal from a teleporter's perspective.
User avatar
Blue_Lion
Knight
Posts: 6226
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Clone Lab 27

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:People should also remember these storms and ... lol. Hurricanes they're quick to whip out and try and swat down a flying target with, will do much more damage to their own turf. Hurricanes are nothing to sneeze at. These sort of tactics are like setting yourself on fire with gasoline and trying to hug your enemy to hurt him. If it gets bad there's nothing to stop the APC from just flying off for a bit and coming back later. 300PPE is nothing to sneeze at to try one of these defensive tactics. Then you tear up your own land trying to swat them out of the air. It's a bit self defeating. If you look at the effects the spell does alot worse to those on the ground, than in the air. So while you're 'trying' to effect the Death bringer. You really ARE affecting everything on the ground around you and making it 50 times harder on them. lol. Depending on which version of Palladium magic you're using, you might have just negated the ability for other mages to even 'try' and cast. Remember, mages have to do their hand motions and speak their spells. It expressly says they cannot do that while doing other physical actions. Running, or dodging, parrying in combat. Or... struggeling against windstorms or hurricanes. It's not like you can call winds big enough to swat at a MDC flying transport but your mage buddies can just stand there unaffected by those same winds and cast.

Dragons can surely get up in the air but they don't fly at 400 mph. They don't have 8,000 feet range on their weapon. Dragon comes after one of these things and the pilot just keeps them 7,000 feet infront of the dragon at all times and shoot him with impunity. If the dragon teleports close, he's suddenly not close when the apc moves at 400mph. I don't think their teleport is accurte enough to 'land' on something going 400 mph, but I'll admit I haven't looked at the rules in a bit. I can't think that'd be remotely easy.

The spell states that they stop all air travel has a 20 mile range and undefined AOE. The damage from the storm would be allot less than you raising the village if you read the spell.

Shure dragons can not fly at 400 miles per how but they can teleport. A collision (body block tackle) with an adult dragon is going to bring a screeching halt to speeding travel and the dragon is likely to be alive and can hang on as it bites and claws its way in.

I do not think your fling transport is a free pass to just level a whole empire by itself.


The summon storm doesn't say they stop all air travel. I've not looked up the hurricane one, but if you cast the hurricane on your own village, the APC just.. flys off and waits as the hurricane tears your village up, and when it's done can fly back in. Right? If you cast hurricane again... You've got a second hurricane tearing up your village and you fly away till it's over?

Teleporting infront of a flying apc going 400mph is going to hurt the dragon. If the dragon holds on. You shoot it. Right?

Ok now you are contradicting the book of magic.

Page 149 Rifts book of magic.
"The storm is accompanied by damaging winds gusting to 35 and 45 MPH. The rain and wind makes air travel impossible."

It is right in the book plane as day, right below the % roll for problems with ground vehicles that you roll every 2 miles traveled.
As to the range they can predict the time and direction of your attack with both magic and psionic so you can stop cast the storm ahead of the air vehicle 20 miles away from the village where you have a bunch of Hiding Ninjas waiting for it to land.

Having two spells below 8th level (probably can pull it off with 2 7th level spells but I know the 8th level armor spell stops bleed.) in a nation is going to be more common in japan than a Death head transport.

Circling at 400 miles per hour is going to be a really big circle and not likely to keep the target in range.

Sure you can shoot the dragon (providing you can get the angle with the guns) but you forget the dragon can teleport away if it gets to badly hurt and regenerate up its MDC (or even use spells to prevent the cannon damage from the transport.) the dragons melee attacks would add up fast.

Why would you not be traveling at top speed let me think. Repairs, resupply, not wanting to over heat your engines(long way to go for the right parts) maneuverability, keeping a target in range.

Giving the location this is not likely a CS op, but a rouge element with a stolen transport.
You are also over looking they are on friendly terms with a golden age tech empire, who will come to their aid against such atrocities.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
User avatar
Blue_Lion
Knight
Posts: 6226
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Clone Lab 27

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:But yeah. "Oh well we'll send the dragons to teleport into the thing" Every village there has a dragon that can try that?
"We'll send tons of elementals" You've warlocks of that level in every village?

Could there be 'a' dragon or 'a' warlock or two in 'a' village? Sure. Is there going to be those things in every village? Unlikely.

For air elementals themselves. 100 times range? That's not a typo? (Doesn't know. Seldom plays mages and usually only looks up mage stuff to make sure people aren't cheating.)


Well yes, most villages would just be screwed if someone in a 100 ton war machine showed up. as it should be. you asked what COULD be done, and of course that comes down to a "Well, hypothetically they might have an air warlork or ley line walker that's at a high level, or maybe a dragon" because that's the only thing that WOULD help. in most cases, the answer is "They are helpless, just like 90% of places in rifts earth would be vs. a deaths head, unless they have an exceptionally powerful champion around to protect them".

also, the 100x normal range is right there in Dark conversions under elementals.


Yeah. It sounded weird so I looked it up. I found the catch that people like to overlook.

"Send an elemental!" and the 100X normal range of a lvl 1 warlock.

Powerful. Powerful indeed. If you overlook what it takes to get one.

1) You have to be the right kind of warlock. In this case an air warlock
2) You have to be 9th level or better to even attempt it. Now, while some GMs play fast and loose with the exp, if you look through the books, the ground shaking heros, the generals, the leaders of pretty much everything. Are usually between lvl 7 and lvl 10 or so. So in universe, 9+lvl warlocks are going to be pretty few and far between.
3) You can only try once per day and it's emotionally and physically taxing.
4) Summoning the greater elemental (The one with the 100X range etc) Gives you half the percentile chance.
5) That summing chance is pretty low. 5% per lvl. Now assuming you've found your totally BA lvl 9 warlock that's a 22.5% chance of actually being able to do it.

So, the 'defense' here, is built around 1) having access too a pretty ground shaking level Warlock of the proper flavor. (lvl 9 or greater) having him in your village when the attack comes, have him start the summons Which still takes 2 to 12minutes. Drains him or her, and has a 1 in 5 chance of succeeding.

Now, if I remember my magy limitations, they have to cast which takes the hand motions and speaking the spell. This can be interrupted by anything causing the mage to move around or dodge, or get punched in the head what not.

That's going to be pretty hard to hold off for 8 to 48 melees straight as your village is getting bombarded from the air with megadamage blasts.

Now assuming the persons in the APC don't go 'Hey!! That guy in white seems to be casting a spell. Light him up" He might not get shot at first, or second, or third, or tenth or 20th attack, but those guys are going to be blasting every melee action for 8 melees minimum, if not the full 48 melees. That's alot of blasts raining down, to never hit close enough to disrupt the spell to even try for that 1 in 5 chance of success.

So at the very very best, when your village is attacked. You need that super warlock, of the right flavor on call, and need 2 to 12 minutes of him casting the summoning spell, to get your 1 in 5 chance of getting the major elemental to come, to try and defend... .what ever is left of your village after the APC has been blowing the crap out of it for 2 to 12 minutes. Assuming that some how the warlock didn't get interrupted with the village being vaporized around him and was never hit randomly by the blasts or debris etc. and never had to start his spell over due to interruption.

If it works.... nice defense (Of what's left) But that's a pretty big string of logistics needed.


The warlock can get a +20% to +30% boost by performing the summoning at a nexus or other "Mystical place" (dosn't have to be a nexus or ley line but can have some other mystic significance", however the time involved means that the most effective elemental defence is to actually do rotating summons on a constant basis. the rules say that Elementals generally don't mind serving their "Little brothers" for a few weeks at a time but eventually get antsy or even violent if they are held for too long, but you can summon 1-2 elementals a month and just trade them out every few weeks without being in any danger of rebellion from any one elemental.

As far as casting limitations, Warlocks actually get a break because they aren't proper mages at all, they are a priest variant that are simply granted power by the elemental lord of the element in question (sometimes two), and they only have to chant the name of their lord (the power word for the element in question) for the casting time in order to invoke the spell. no gestures or concentration required, alibet chanting "Cherubot-kyn"(Power word: Air) for 3-6 seconds is a bit of a tongue twister


You aren't likely to have a villiage built on a nexus. Layline storms and rifts and stuff make that, in general a bad place to place a settlement.

As for 'Oh have um on a rotating basis'. I read a bit of it. you're basically summoning a minor god, it's not a trivial thing. yes they'll stay around for a few days with out trying to kill the warlock, but they get mad. It also goes on at length that the elementals don't think the way people do and they'd see nothing wrong with killing everyone in the village themselves if they were in the way or something. It's part of their limitations, their truly alien mindset. This came up in the SoT. Something to the effect that they used minor elementals to patrol the northern approach but because of their orders, they never reported the CS forces up there that came through the hivelands, because they weren't told specifically what to look out for.

If you summon that minor god, you better have something for it to do, as if you don't it might decide to see how much blood comes out of different humans when you pull off their arms and legs, or being an air elemental might just summon up a hurricane or tornado for spits and giggles.

Having one just hanging around indefinably seems to be more dangerous to the village than not. And that warlock has to sleep sometime.

You still have the other limitations. The level requirement, the flavor of warlock requirement, the time requirement, and the percentile chance. At 22% per try one per day, you could just simply fail when that APC came flying towards the village. I don't buy the 'keeping a major elemental on tap' type plan at all.

I don't know about warlock casting. can you point me to a page where it says they're unlike other mages? Cuz "oh they don't have to gesture or do anything but say one word" seems weird. I read the casting proceedure for normal mages the other day. Where's the stuff specificly for warlocks, that say that spell interruption is different for them?


Actually magical communities do build on nexus points. They also have a Millennium Tree that is on( and controls) a nexus point.

This also a topic about how they would respond to the thing attacking them and destroying a village so they will be digging deep in their response and not limited by what is trivial as the players in this case are a major threat. The fist surprise attack by the death head would be devastating as the OP stated it was he was looking for how the nation would respond after the fist such attack.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
User avatar
flatline
Knight
Posts: 6153
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:05 pm
Location: Memphis, TN

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by flatline »

People are also not making a differentiation between a minor elemental and a major. It's only the major that comes with the perks that were stipulated previously. ANd they come with severe limitations as well. Not the least of which is 'What happens when someone figures it out and shoots the Warlock in the face with a cannon blast and suddenly there's a minor god free to do whatever it wants.


Because that sort of thing won't be obvious to the gunner flying by at 400mph?

Really, what are the odds that while you're doing a strafing run at 400mph that you'll be able to identify that there's a relationship between the invisible air elemental attacking your ship and the random guy on the ground hiding behind cover?

--flatline
I don't care about canon answers. I'm interested in good, well-reasoned answers and, perhaps, a short discussion of how that answer is supported or contradicted by canon.

If I don't provide a book and page number, then don't assume that I'm describing canon. I'll tell you if I'm describing canon.
User avatar
Library Ogre
Palladium Books® Freelance Writer
Posts: 9800
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2001 1:01 am
Comment: My comments do not necessarily represent the views of Palladium Books.
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by Library Ogre »

flatline wrote:
People are also not making a differentiation between a minor elemental and a major. It's only the major that comes with the perks that were stipulated previously. ANd they come with severe limitations as well. Not the least of which is 'What happens when someone figures it out and shoots the Warlock in the face with a cannon blast and suddenly there's a minor god free to do whatever it wants.


Because that sort of thing won't be obvious to the gunner flying by at 400mph?

Really, what are the odds that while you're doing a strafing run at 400mph that you'll be able to identify that there's a relationship between the invisible air elemental attacking your ship and the random guy on the ground hiding behind cover?


...who is also either Invisible or Chameleon'd, or hiding behind a magic cloud of some kind.
-overproduced by Martin Hannett

When I see someone "fisking" these days my first inclination is to think "That person doesn't have much to say, and says it in volume." -John Scalzi
Happiness is a long block list.
If you don't want to be vilified, don't act like a villain.
The Megaverse runs on vibes.
All Palladium Articles
Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by eliakon »

Mark Hall wrote:
flatline wrote:
People are also not making a differentiation between a minor elemental and a major. It's only the major that comes with the perks that were stipulated previously. ANd they come with severe limitations as well. Not the least of which is 'What happens when someone figures it out and shoots the Warlock in the face with a cannon blast and suddenly there's a minor god free to do whatever it wants.


Because that sort of thing won't be obvious to the gunner flying by at 400mph?

Really, what are the odds that while you're doing a strafing run at 400mph that you'll be able to identify that there's a relationship between the invisible air elemental attacking your ship and the random guy on the ground hiding behind cover?


...who is also either Invisible or Chameleon'd, or hiding behind a magic cloud of some kind.

Or may be two provinces over having summoned some of his brothers to do him a little favor......
And even if by some chance the Warlock dies....so? It depends on the orders given what happens next. That may set it 'free to do whatever it wants' or it might go home, or it might just finish its last order, or any number of things....
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
torjones
Dungeon Crawler
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:03 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by torjones »

Blue_Lion wrote:Circling at 400 miles per hour is going to be a really big circle and not likely to keep the target in range.


Considering that the AC-130W has a top speed of 380 mph and a cruise speed of 335 mph, and they have absolutely no problem hitting an individual man sized object running across the terrain with a 105mm cannon, I don't see the problem here...

May The Force be with you always.
Torrey
User avatar
flatline
Knight
Posts: 6153
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:05 pm
Location: Memphis, TN

Re: How does the New Empire deal with flying technology?

Unread post by flatline »

[please note, the only description I have of the Death Bringer is the small blurb in the GMG and what little has been said here. I'm going to assume that the laser turrets can see the top of the Death Bringer but that their firing arc does not allow them to actually shoot the Death Bringer itself]

"Oh, for goodness sake!" Mack said disgustedly to no one in particular as he watched the Death Bringer pull up from its strafing run and begin to turn around for another pass. He'd heard rumors of attacks on other villages by these guys and was not about to let them get away without a little comeuppance. He cast Cosmic Armor and flew straight up to be above the village when the Death Bringer came back around [note: speed of cosmic armor in atmosphere is 1/2 Mach which I assume is about 335mph]. By the time the Death Bringer had finished turning around, Mack had also made himself invisible [simple], impervious to energy, and gave himself Supernatural Strength. The Death Bringer was attacking from about a mile above the village which was a pretty safe distance from the small arms below, but it brought the machine much closer to Mack.

Mack readied his hooks.

Mack began an intercept course and when he was within 1000 feet, triggered a Time Slip talisman. It took just over 2 seconds to reach the Death Bringer and left Mack with 5 seconds to find edges to secure his hooks and lay down on the top of the Death Bringer before time resumed. There was a jerk as time resumed and the differential between the Death Bringers speed and his Cosmic Armors speed became a reality, but the cables on his hooks were secured to his shoulder harness and his super natural strength helped him endure it without much more than a grunt of discomfort.

He was near a laser turret, but in his invisible state, apparently the gunner couldn't see him or was too distracted by ground targets to react. The gunner, however, became very interested when Mack slammed two Fire Globes into the Death Bringer by his knees causing the back of the Death Bringer to burst into flame. The gunner could see the cables and hooks, but was prevented from shooting them by the same safety features that prevented him from targeting the vehicle itself. Mack slammed two more fire globes into the Death Bringer. The gunner couldn't see Mack, but had clearly decided there was someone connected to the hooks and cables. The laser turret began firing. The lasers didn't harm Mack in the least due to Impervious to Energy, but the magical fire from the two most recent fire globes was starting to cook the cables securing him to the Death Bringer. He quickly slammed his last two fire globes on to the Death Bringer, freed himself from the hooks and cables by pulling the quick release on his shoulder harness, and flew up, away from the Death Bringer.

Mack didn't know if the six fire globes would be enough to destroy the machine, but he figured it would hurt.

[note: the average fire globe will do 192.5MD, so on average, we expect six globes to do a total of 1155MD which should be plenty to destroy the Death Bringer over the next couple of minutes]

--flatline
I don't care about canon answers. I'm interested in good, well-reasoned answers and, perhaps, a short discussion of how that answer is supported or contradicted by canon.

If I don't provide a book and page number, then don't assume that I'm describing canon. I'll tell you if I'm describing canon.
Post Reply

Return to “Rifts®”