Is it time the CS finally loses one?

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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by HWalsh »

eliakon wrote:3) I am not sure why you feel the need to make this personal ("this is a scary concept...") nor why you seem to feel that those who do not share your opinion that this sort of thing is 'logical' are some how 'wrong'. Nor do I accept that 'something that can fry tech is bound to happen sooner or later.


Eliakon - Logic isn't something that is up for debate. Is it logical that a massive, extremely threatening, superpower on a continent who absolutely poses a threat to every kingdom that isn't human supremist and shuns magic, wouldn't have their enemies look for the only way to potentially win against them? No, of course not.

The only way anyone *could* beat the CS is:
1. A weapon that takes out the main advantage of the CS. (Numbers. You have to neutralize large numbers.)
2. Having large enough numbers to stand up to their numeric advantage. (I'm not even sure there are enough people in North America Rifts to do that.)

So, in North America, you have ARCHIE Three, who could do it, simply because he can match their numbers. You also have the bugs, which, lets be honest, would get steamrolled like everything else by the millions on top of millions on top of millions of CS troops. Heck they even have a guy who lead a squad through bug country relatively unharmed.

Tolkeen is gone... From what we can extrapolate even the demon armies can't stand up to the CS... What is left?
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

The bugs outnumber the CS far worse than the CS outnumbers Lazlo.
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Shark_Force »

nothing in splicers actually neutralizes tech, per se. they have a thing that will infest a metallic object and clog it with so much crud that any joints can't move, and other things that dissolve metal but not other substances, and a few electrical weapons, and NEXUS has released a nanobot plague that somehow manages to do some really weird crazy stuff when mammalian life comes into contact with any metal (with a few exceptions), but there isn't really anything that actually stops tech from working as such (in fact, for most of the nanobot plague responses it is quite likely that everyone wishes it *did* stop tech from working, since it's most likely that the plague will turn high-tech objects against you in some way, shape, or form).

i mean, along those lines, you may as well say that rifts has things that neutralizes tech too. actually, i'd go so far as to say that rifts in a few cases literally has things that neutralize tech. there are actual spells that prevent mechanical objects from functioning, prevent explosives from detonating properly, prevent electrical devices from working properly, and prevent radios from working properly. in short, of the two settings, rifts is a lot closer to "neutralizing technology" than splicers is or likely ever will be.
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by eliakon »

HWalsh wrote:
eliakon wrote:3) I am not sure why you feel the need to make this personal ("this is a scary concept...") nor why you seem to feel that those who do not share your opinion that this sort of thing is 'logical' are some how 'wrong'. Nor do I accept that 'something that can fry tech is bound to happen sooner or later.


Eliakon - Logic isn't something that is up for debate.

To bad this isn't logic then.
HWalsh wrote:Is it logical that a massive, extremely threatening, superpower on a continent who absolutely poses a threat to every kingdom that isn't human supremist and shuns magic, wouldn't have their enemies look for the only way to potentially win against them? No, of course not.

Just because they are looking for something does not mean that it is inevitable that they will find it.

HWalsh wrote:The only way anyone *could* beat the CS is:
1. A weapon that takes out the main advantage of the CS. (Numbers. You have to neutralize large numbers.)
2. Having large enough numbers to stand up to their numeric advantage. (I'm not even sure there are enough people in North America Rifts to do that.)

So, in North America, you have ARCHIE Three, who could do it, simply because he can match their numbers. You also have the bugs, which, lets be honest, would get steamrolled like everything else by the millions on top of millions on top of millions of CS troops. Heck they even have a guy who lead a squad through bug country relatively unharmed.

Tolkeen is gone... From what we can extrapolate even the demon armies can't stand up to the CS... What is left?

1) The bugs outnumber the CS by an order of magnitude.....but ignoring that we go to point 2
2) Simply desiring an outcome (that the CS should lose) does not mean that there is therefore a force around to do the beating. Wish fulfilment is not usually a valid premise from which to start building.
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Incriptus »

If a future story pointed out that the CS had lost 50-75 percent of it's navy would that be a big enough hit? Obviously if it's ignored, or rebuilt quickly it's meaningless ... but if it's mentioned would the loss of naval power be enough to satisfying?
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

actually, going by the SB4 and WB23 numbers.. the loss could be as high as 75%... with a lot of it being in the bigger ships. (they lose about 40-50% of their navy.. but those figures don't seem to count the 25% to 30% that defected to FQ in the split..)
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by flatline »

HWalsh wrote:To me, at least, North America Rifts would be much more interesting if the CS had actual competition. So there were 3+ super powers of near equal capability to keep the tension. As it is, really, it feels like the CS owns all, can beat anyone they want, and the only things that potentially pose a threat to them are either not moving on them (Atlantis) or most likely would lose (The bugs.)


In my own setting my solution was to turn each fortress city into its own city-state. The CS is a loose alliance of city-states who don't necessarily like each other or trust each other and are constantly trying to gain advantage over each other. Lots of intrigue, no unified army of fantastic proportions. Prosek is trying to unifiy the city-states, but hasn't gotten more than token commitments from any of the others.

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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by taalismn »

flatline wrote:[In my own setting my solution was to turn each fortress city into its own city-state. The CS is a loose alliance of city-states who don't necessarily like each other or trust each other and are constantly trying to gain advantage over each other. Lots of intrigue, no unified army of fantastic proportions. Prosek is trying to unifiy the city-states, but hasn't gotten more than token commitments from any of the others.

--flatline



Have Desmond Bradford of Lone Star become disaffected and lose his infatuation with Karl as 'an equal'(attendent with Bradford's upward ramping conviction that he's a god), leading to worries that the CS's genetic/industrial powerhouse state may unexpectedly secede. Ideally, the best Chi-Town can hope for is a neutral buffer state to their south, and when a scheme hatched Joseph Jr. to neutralize the Bradford threat goes south and is kicked out into the open, hostilities flare.
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

flatline wrote:
HWalsh wrote:To me, at least, North America Rifts would be much more interesting if the CS had actual competition. So there were 3+ super powers of near equal capability to keep the tension. As it is, really, it feels like the CS owns all, can beat anyone they want, and the only things that potentially pose a threat to them are either not moving on them (Atlantis) or most likely would lose (The bugs.)


In my own setting my solution was to turn each fortress city into its own city-state. The CS is a loose alliance of city-states who don't necessarily like each other or trust each other and are constantly trying to gain advantage over each other. Lots of intrigue, no unified army of fantastic proportions. Prosek is trying to unifiy the city-states, but hasn't gotten more than token commitments from any of the others.

--flatline

Is it still a human supremacist group? I don't see how the separated pieces of the CS could exist if they weren't friendlier. Without strong unification, no one is going to take them seriously and it would be expected that they'd have died off years ago.
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

HWalsh wrote:You also have the bugs, which, lets be honest, would get steamrolled like everything else by the millions on top of millions on top of millions of CS troops. Heck they even have a guy who lead a squad through bug country relatively unharmed.


Yeah... but the theory there was that he only survived because he didn't fight back. Even still, IIRC, he lost a number of his troops.
As things stand now, the bugs are more than a match for the Coalition, unless the CS pulls out a super-weapon or something.

viewtopic.php?p=2811582#p2811582
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Hystrix wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:I calculated the number of bugs at about 1.2 billion total.
I mentioned the number to Kevin once, and he said "That sounds about right."

Granted, it was an off-hand, informal comment, but I take it to mean that I was in the ballpark.


I'd love to see your figures. I'm going off of WB 23.

If Kevin said it its hard to argue, but id love to see something more in writing. The Xiticix home world talks about hives having 500 million, but they dominate the whole planet. Rifts Earth bugs are in Northern Minnesota , Manitoba, and North and South Dakota. I'm not sure where they all fit.

Hey I reserve the right to be wrong about this, I'm just going off the book. Not everyone gets there info directly from KS. :wink:


Ask and ye shall receive!

I'm going off of WB23, but also off of Aftermath.
viewtopic.php?p=1909305#p1909305

Killer Cyborg wrote:Xiticix Invasion, p. 22-23:
When a xiticix colony reaches 300 million members, it splits into 1d6 new colonies, each of roughly the same size. Each of those colonies will keep growing until it exceeds 200 million in population.
The Duluth Hive is the largest hive colony on Rifts Earth, and it spawned the other five, which were each 4-6 years old in 105 PA.
This would imply that there are at least 300 million Xiticix on Rifts Earth, since the original Duluth colony got large enough to split into 6 equally populated hives, and then each hive had 4-6 years to grow.
Also, the Duluth Hive is once again large enough that it is still producing queens and seeking to establish new colonies (though the other colonies are still too small).
300 million originally, split 6 ways = 50 million per colony.
If the Duluth Hive is seeking to make new colonies because it's reached the 200 Million mark, then that's another +150 million bugs, not counting the growth the other colonies have achieved in that time (it's save to assume the Duluth Hive grew faster due to better infrastructure and resources).
So that's at least 450 million bugs.

P. 85 paints a much less chilling picture, estimating that there are (as of 105 PA) 3-4 million xiticix. The projected rate of growth would put their total population at 50 million by 110 PA.
These estimates, however, are in-game estimations made by the Coalition States; they only show what the CS believes to be the truth.
They do not over-ride the previous population numbers that come from the writers themselves.

And remember that the 450 million Xiticix estimate is based on the information in Xiticix Invasion, which took place in 105 PA.
In Aftermath, set 109 PA, (p. 69), it mentions:
"Left unchecked for these past four or five years, the Xiticix population has continued to explode, not quite at a geometric rate, but close to it. Soon, swarms from each hive will go forth with a new, young queen to start their own hive and increase the current Hivelands range by 33%."
Which means that as of 109 PA, each of the six Xiticix colonies has reached at least the 200 million population mark, making their total numbers a minimum of 1.2 Billion.


Although I think somebody mentioned that 50k demons went after the xiticix, reducing the bug numbers by half somehow.
I don't have that book yet, so I can't really say if/how that went down.
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by flatline »

Alrik Vas wrote:
flatline wrote:
HWalsh wrote:To me, at least, North America Rifts would be much more interesting if the CS had actual competition. So there were 3+ super powers of near equal capability to keep the tension. As it is, really, it feels like the CS owns all, can beat anyone they want, and the only things that potentially pose a threat to them are either not moving on them (Atlantis) or most likely would lose (The bugs.)


In my own setting my solution was to turn each fortress city into its own city-state. The CS is a loose alliance of city-states who don't necessarily like each other or trust each other and are constantly trying to gain advantage over each other. Lots of intrigue, no unified army of fantastic proportions. Prosek is trying to unifiy the city-states, but hasn't gotten more than token commitments from any of the others.

--flatline

Is it still a human supremacist group? I don't see how the separated pieces of the CS could exist if they weren't friendlier. Without strong unification, no one is going to take them seriously and it would be expected that they'd have died off years ago.


Chi-town is supremacist pretty much as described in RMB. FQ is mostly as described in the books. The other city-states vary.

In my setting, the capability to manufacture high tech goods is pretty rare, so just about everybody wants to trade with the fortress cities (either directly or indirectly) since the fortress cities are the most reliable source of high tech goods.

--flatline
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by HWalsh »

Killer Cyborg wrote:Although I think somebody mentioned that 50k demons went after the xiticix, reducing the bug numbers by half somehow.
I don't have that book yet, so I can't really say if/how that went down.


From what I am told it is a throwaway line. As in, there are no details given, it just happened. I haven't gotten to it yet.
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Tor »

HWalsh wrote:The computer created a nano-virus that made it so that any metal infected humans come into contact with becomes a hostile robot.

It doesn't always become something advanced enough to be a robot, it might just grow spikes and stab you or something. It tends to only be already-advanced tech gear that can become an actual robot.

I feel like Archie and Psi-Techs and TWs would have some countermeasure to this if they had enough time to work at it.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Splicers is also a precedent for an entire planet where magic doesn't really work, IIRC.

Not THAT extreme. It is a planet without ley-lines though. Psionics work about half and magic works about a third, to approximate. Gotta pay more points, get reduced effects, slow to regen energy, etc.
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Fyrpower »

In my opinion, I think having the CS lose outright might be a bad idea, however, having them 'steam roll' every single opponent is just plain boring especially without a plausible reason. How about they win the outcome of the minion war, but the outcome is pretty costly this time round. I was thinking examples such as maybe a huge portion of the armies (30-50%) got rifted to Hades or Dyval in the backlash, that would make a seriously good backstory, especially if they have to set up base camp (there's tons of ideas that could come from this) or how about a variation or adaptation (in the same way a virus adapts) of several of the demon plagues (or maybe one super plague) infect nearly 75% of the remaining soldiers, they go back to the CS states and spread the plagues amoungst the rest of the population making parts of the Coalition States a quarantine area, paving the way for civil unrest or start asking for outside help from nations they wouldn't touch with a barge pole (Lazlo etc.) Think a magical variation of the Black Death from 1300s in Europe infecting the CS, now that would be interesting, as they would be pretty helpless to cure due to their intollerance to magic. Maybe the only State safe from it would be Lone Star because of Dr. Bradford and he decided to close his doors from the rest of the CS. There's so many sub-plots and plot ideas that could come from this.
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by FrankSerpico »

I have yet to get my hands on Megaverse in Flames, but reading what others have said about Ciudad de Diablo gave me what I think could be a good idea for a new power in NA which could legitimately rival the CS. I GMed a campaign some years back where my party was caught up in an internecine war in Mexico between the Vampire Kingdoms. The conflict ended with most of the Vampire Intelligences in the region killing one another off, and the two that were left were in control of vastly diminished kingdoms and numbers of minions. This led to not only the Tampico Protectorate and werejaguars filling some of the power vacuum in Central America, but the Pecos Empire expanding South. Now, what if the Dyval in Cuba were to send some emissaries to "Emperor" Lasar and propose an alliance? Of course they'd double cross that motley collection of of humans and d-bees sooner or later, leaving them with a foothold in the American Southwest and possibly even farther south into the Yucatan along with territory on Lone Star's doorstep...really makes me wanna get a party together again lol.
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Subjugator »

Not unless they make me mad.

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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Nox Equites »

Don't expect a canon loss for the boys in black. In your own campaign do what makes sense for you. In one of mine the Tolkeen siege had to be called off because the Xiticix expansion became impossible to ignore and CS Iron Heart was threatening to secede or join FQ. CS can restrict Xiticix expansion but they will lose a lot in actually assaulting nearest hives. Each of the oldest hives has over a million bugs a piece easily and Duluth the Oldest has 1.2 to 1.5 million population as a reasonable guess. Do what sensibly makes sense for your group. Each campaign breaks canon by existing.
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

By official numbers (not the CS estimates in XI), there would be more bugs than that in a hive.
Just as a side note.
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by flatline »

Nox Equites wrote:Each campaign breaks canon by existing.


Yes and No. It only breaks canon if canon advances the time line.

If canon defines the setting at a point in time and the campaign begins at or after that point in time, then it is impossible to contradict canon.

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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Nox Equites »

I use the books I have as idea mines, not incontrovertible gospel, as some of the things don't make sense in canon an suspension of disbelief only goes so far. By the end of the siege of Tolkeen Wisconsin is over run and Ironheart has bugs on her doorstep if you use the expected growth from WB23. The kamikazi run through bug turf to win the siege would scour the region clean from the canon responses listed in the same book. So yeah you have to break canon when it stops making sense for your group. Most of my campaigns start at 102 PA or so which gives the characters some room to grow before the WC shake up.
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Nox Equites wrote:I use the books I have as idea mines, not incontrovertible gospel


Cool beans.
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Nightmask wrote:It was time for it to lose one when it went after Tolkeen. Everyone who should have gotten involved didn't, including bitter enemies of the CS who should have promptly attacked while it was busy with Tolkeen but instead bizarrely sat back and said 'gee I hate the CS for its history of persecuting and killing my kind and to show that hate I'm going to sit back and watch while they kill even more people like myself and do nothing else'.


The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend, and there's no sense wasting good blood after bad.
Tolkeen did get a LOT of support from enemies of the Coalition... it's just that that support didn't matter much in the long run.
More support still wouldn't have mattered much, except there'd be more dead bodies scattered around the smoking ruins of Tolkeen, and perhaps some more smoking ruins of other citystates that decided to get directly involved.

Again, the CS has more guys in SAMAS than most places have in their entire population.
They have more Dog Boys than the entire population of Tolkeen AND all the people who rushed to Tolkeen's aid.

Look at it like the US's recent activities in the Middle East.
Like the CS, we went to war with two nations at once.
Like the CS, we have many enemies who hate us.
Like the CS, we saw the people we were attacking bolstered by enemy forces from all around.
Like the CS, we pretty much crushed all hard opposition anyway.
Because, like the CS, we have a large and powerful enough nation, with enough high technology, that even the combined forces of our enemies aren't really going to stop us.

Do the math.
Look at the CS populations and their military numbers.
Look at the populations of their enemies.
Look at the technology differences.

As we're told from the outset (RMB 191):
The Coalition has the most powerful army in the known world. Their level of technology is unsurpassed in the Americas.
And that's NOT by a small margin.

The City of Dweomer has about 50k people as of 105 PA (FoM 17)
The Kingdom of Dunscon has about 31,500 people (FoM 32)
Magestar has <2k people (FoM 53)
Stormspire has <20k people (FoM 59)

So the Federations of Magic, even if they decided to all work together to chip in, and even if ever man/woman/child/creature decided to fight and was capable of it, could bring about 103,500 more bodies to the war.
That's a drop in the bucket.

New Lazlo (RUE 31) has a population of 86k today, but 34k of that are Tolkeen refugees, so their entire population was only about 50k before the SoT.

The city of Lazlo is one of the relative big-boys, boasting a population of 1.25 million people (RUE 21).

So let's just say that every man/woman/child/critter in these areas banded together. They'd have an army of 1,403,500 or so troops.
The Coalition States, back in 100-101 PA, had a minimum of 1,400,000 Dog Boys alone (SB1 12-13), and that's going off of the conservative numbers.
The numbers more likely were as high as 2.4 million Dog Boys, and "that number is growing by the day."

They also have around 3.2 million SAMAS pilots.
They also have at the very least least 1.6 million ISS Peacekeepers.
God only knows how many grunts they have, but (iirc) most of the million grunts used in the SoT were new recruits that didn't even really dip into the CS' regular numbers.

Do the math.
The CS has more disposable cannon fodder troops than they have enemies.
They have the overall best technology in North America.
They have the most resources.

And NOT by anything resembling small amount.


I agree. The Coalition is damn near unstoppable within the North American theater. I read your later post about the Xiticix and the Vamps, but even then, both creature types have limitations that Coalition science can exploit. Chemical weapons for the bugs, and manufactured monsoons for the Vamps.
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

The Artist Formerly wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Nightmask wrote:It was time for it to lose one when it went after Tolkeen. Everyone who should have gotten involved didn't, including bitter enemies of the CS who should have promptly attacked while it was busy with Tolkeen but instead bizarrely sat back and said 'gee I hate the CS for its history of persecuting and killing my kind and to show that hate I'm going to sit back and watch while they kill even more people like myself and do nothing else'.


The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend, and there's no sense wasting good blood after bad.
Tolkeen did get a LOT of support from enemies of the Coalition... it's just that that support didn't matter much in the long run.
More support still wouldn't have mattered much, except there'd be more dead bodies scattered around the smoking ruins of Tolkeen, and perhaps some more smoking ruins of other citystates that decided to get directly involved.

Again, the CS has more guys in SAMAS than most places have in their entire population.
They have more Dog Boys than the entire population of Tolkeen AND all the people who rushed to Tolkeen's aid.

Look at it like the US's recent activities in the Middle East.
Like the CS, we went to war with two nations at once.
Like the CS, we have many enemies who hate us.
Like the CS, we saw the people we were attacking bolstered by enemy forces from all around.
Like the CS, we pretty much crushed all hard opposition anyway.
Because, like the CS, we have a large and powerful enough nation, with enough high technology, that even the combined forces of our enemies aren't really going to stop us.

Do the math.
Look at the CS populations and their military numbers.
Look at the populations of their enemies.
Look at the technology differences.

As we're told from the outset (RMB 191):
The Coalition has the most powerful army in the known world. Their level of technology is unsurpassed in the Americas.
And that's NOT by a small margin.

The City of Dweomer has about 50k people as of 105 PA (FoM 17)
The Kingdom of Dunscon has about 31,500 people (FoM 32)
Magestar has <2k people (FoM 53)
Stormspire has <20k people (FoM 59)

So the Federations of Magic, even if they decided to all work together to chip in, and even if ever man/woman/child/creature decided to fight and was capable of it, could bring about 103,500 more bodies to the war.
That's a drop in the bucket.

New Lazlo (RUE 31) has a population of 86k today, but 34k of that are Tolkeen refugees, so their entire population was only about 50k before the SoT.

The city of Lazlo is one of the relative big-boys, boasting a population of 1.25 million people (RUE 21).

So let's just say that every man/woman/child/critter in these areas banded together. They'd have an army of 1,403,500 or so troops.
The Coalition States, back in 100-101 PA, had a minimum of 1,400,000 Dog Boys alone (SB1 12-13), and that's going off of the conservative numbers.
The numbers more likely were as high as 2.4 million Dog Boys, and "that number is growing by the day."

They also have around 3.2 million SAMAS pilots.
They also have at the very least least 1.6 million ISS Peacekeepers.
God only knows how many grunts they have, but (iirc) most of the million grunts used in the SoT were new recruits that didn't even really dip into the CS' regular numbers.

Do the math.
The CS has more disposable cannon fodder troops than they have enemies.
They have the overall best technology in North America.
They have the most resources.

And NOT by anything resembling small amount.


I agree. The Coalition is damn near unstoppable within the North American theater. I read your later post about the Xiticix and the Vamps, but even then, both creature types have limitations that Coalition science can exploit. Chemical weapons for the bugs, and manufactured monsoons for the Vamps.

How does the CS manufacture monsoons? I did not think they had climate control, and to think they can do better than a rain god.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

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Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

Blue_Lion wrote:
The Artist Formerly wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Nightmask wrote:It was time for it to lose one when it went after Tolkeen. Everyone who should have gotten involved didn't, including bitter enemies of the CS who should have promptly attacked while it was busy with Tolkeen but instead bizarrely sat back and said 'gee I hate the CS for its history of persecuting and killing my kind and to show that hate I'm going to sit back and watch while they kill even more people like myself and do nothing else'.


The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend, and there's no sense wasting good blood after bad.
Tolkeen did get a LOT of support from enemies of the Coalition... it's just that that support didn't matter much in the long run.
More support still wouldn't have mattered much, except there'd be more dead bodies scattered around the smoking ruins of Tolkeen, and perhaps some more smoking ruins of other citystates that decided to get directly involved.

Again, the CS has more guys in SAMAS than most places have in their entire population.
They have more Dog Boys than the entire population of Tolkeen AND all the people who rushed to Tolkeen's aid.

Look at it like the US's recent activities in the Middle East.
Like the CS, we went to war with two nations at once.
Like the CS, we have many enemies who hate us.
Like the CS, we saw the people we were attacking bolstered by enemy forces from all around.
Like the CS, we pretty much crushed all hard opposition anyway.
Because, like the CS, we have a large and powerful enough nation, with enough high technology, that even the combined forces of our enemies aren't really going to stop us.

Do the math.
Look at the CS populations and their military numbers.
Look at the populations of their enemies.
Look at the technology differences.

As we're told from the outset (RMB 191):
The Coalition has the most powerful army in the known world. Their level of technology is unsurpassed in the Americas.
And that's NOT by a small margin.

The City of Dweomer has about 50k people as of 105 PA (FoM 17)
The Kingdom of Dunscon has about 31,500 people (FoM 32)
Magestar has <2k people (FoM 53)
Stormspire has <20k people (FoM 59)

So the Federations of Magic, even if they decided to all work together to chip in, and even if ever man/woman/child/creature decided to fight and was capable of it, could bring about 103,500 more bodies to the war.
That's a drop in the bucket.

New Lazlo (RUE 31) has a population of 86k today, but 34k of that are Tolkeen refugees, so their entire population was only about 50k before the SoT.

The city of Lazlo is one of the relative big-boys, boasting a population of 1.25 million people (RUE 21).

So let's just say that every man/woman/child/critter in these areas banded together. They'd have an army of 1,403,500 or so troops.
The Coalition States, back in 100-101 PA, had a minimum of 1,400,000 Dog Boys alone (SB1 12-13), and that's going off of the conservative numbers.
The numbers more likely were as high as 2.4 million Dog Boys, and "that number is growing by the day."

They also have around 3.2 million SAMAS pilots.
They also have at the very least least 1.6 million ISS Peacekeepers.
God only knows how many grunts they have, but (iirc) most of the million grunts used in the SoT were new recruits that didn't even really dip into the CS' regular numbers.

Do the math.
The CS has more disposable cannon fodder troops than they have enemies.
They have the overall best technology in North America.
They have the most resources.

And NOT by anything resembling small amount.


I agree. The Coalition is damn near unstoppable within the North American theater. I read your later post about the Xiticix and the Vamps, but even then, both creature types have limitations that Coalition science can exploit. Chemical weapons for the bugs, and manufactured monsoons for the Vamps.

How does the CS manufacture monsoons? I did not think they had climate control, and to think they can do better than a rain god.


Use tech to make steam. Plasma weapons, lasers, burn coal, whatever. Steam is clouds in potential, followed by regular cloud seeding. The big limiter is access to power, something the golden age of man didn't want for. Once you've solved that, everything else is about wind patterns and just brute force over powering any of the problems that might arise.

In one of the war on Tolkeen books, it mentions that the CS was using modified plasma weapons to burn bodies on mass. Same concept, just up sized.
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

The Artist Formerly wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
The Artist Formerly wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Nightmask wrote:It was time for it to lose one when it went after Tolkeen. Everyone who should have gotten involved didn't, including bitter enemies of the CS who should have promptly attacked while it was busy with Tolkeen but instead bizarrely sat back and said 'gee I hate the CS for its history of persecuting and killing my kind and to show that hate I'm going to sit back and watch while they kill even more people like myself and do nothing else'.


The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend, and there's no sense wasting good blood after bad.
Tolkeen did get a LOT of support from enemies of the Coalition... it's just that that support didn't matter much in the long run.
More support still wouldn't have mattered much, except there'd be more dead bodies scattered around the smoking ruins of Tolkeen, and perhaps some more smoking ruins of other citystates that decided to get directly involved.

Again, the CS has more guys in SAMAS than most places have in their entire population.
They have more Dog Boys than the entire population of Tolkeen AND all the people who rushed to Tolkeen's aid.

Look at it like the US's recent activities in the Middle East.
Like the CS, we went to war with two nations at once.
Like the CS, we have many enemies who hate us.
Like the CS, we saw the people we were attacking bolstered by enemy forces from all around.
Like the CS, we pretty much crushed all hard opposition anyway.
Because, like the CS, we have a large and powerful enough nation, with enough high technology, that even the combined forces of our enemies aren't really going to stop us.

Do the math.
Look at the CS populations and their military numbers.
Look at the populations of their enemies.
Look at the technology differences.

As we're told from the outset (RMB 191):
The Coalition has the most powerful army in the known world. Their level of technology is unsurpassed in the Americas.
And that's NOT by a small margin.

The City of Dweomer has about 50k people as of 105 PA (FoM 17)
The Kingdom of Dunscon has about 31,500 people (FoM 32)
Magestar has <2k people (FoM 53)
Stormspire has <20k people (FoM 59)

So the Federations of Magic, even if they decided to all work together to chip in, and even if ever man/woman/child/creature decided to fight and was capable of it, could bring about 103,500 more bodies to the war.
That's a drop in the bucket.

New Lazlo (RUE 31) has a population of 86k today, but 34k of that are Tolkeen refugees, so their entire population was only about 50k before the SoT.

The city of Lazlo is one of the relative big-boys, boasting a population of 1.25 million people (RUE 21).

So let's just say that every man/woman/child/critter in these areas banded together. They'd have an army of 1,403,500 or so troops.
The Coalition States, back in 100-101 PA, had a minimum of 1,400,000 Dog Boys alone (SB1 12-13), and that's going off of the conservative numbers.
The numbers more likely were as high as 2.4 million Dog Boys, and "that number is growing by the day."

They also have around 3.2 million SAMAS pilots.
They also have at the very least least 1.6 million ISS Peacekeepers.
God only knows how many grunts they have, but (iirc) most of the million grunts used in the SoT were new recruits that didn't even really dip into the CS' regular numbers.

Do the math.
The CS has more disposable cannon fodder troops than they have enemies.
They have the overall best technology in North America.
They have the most resources.

And NOT by anything resembling small amount.


I agree. The Coalition is damn near unstoppable within the North American theater. I read your later post about the Xiticix and the Vamps, but even then, both creature types have limitations that Coalition science can exploit. Chemical weapons for the bugs, and manufactured monsoons for the Vamps.

How does the CS manufacture monsoons? I did not think they had climate control, and to think they can do better than a rain god.


Use tech to make steam. Plasma weapons, lasers, burn coal, whatever. Steam is clouds in potential, followed by regular cloud seeding. The big limiter is access to power, something the golden age of man didn't want for. Once you've solved that, everything else is about wind patterns and just brute force over powering any of the problems that might arise.

In one of the war on Tolkeen books, it mentions that the CS was using modified plasma weapons to burn bodies on mass. Same concept, just up sized.

So you are assuming they have an ability that the books do not say they do. In addition A rain god is loosing ground to them he has more direct control over rain.
At the level of heat of plasma it might split the water it to hygiene on oxygen and not produce steam. To me this is to much speculation without any canon support.
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

Blue_Lion wrote:So you are assuming they have an ability that the books do not say they do. In addition A rain god is loosing ground to them he has more direct control over rain.
At the level of heat of plasma it might split the water it to hygiene on oxygen and not produce steam. To me this is to much speculation without any canon support.


I'm pretty sure the CS has access to steam generation technology. Energy generation is the only trick. And if you want canon support for that bit, consider a bow that shoots laser bolts generated by pulling a string pump...thingy. Back of Rifts spirit west. It's a MDC bow and laser arrow system. :)
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

The Artist Formerly wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:So you are assuming they have an ability that the books do not say they do. In addition A rain god is loosing ground to them he has more direct control over rain.
At the level of heat of plasma it might split the water it to hygiene on oxygen and not produce steam. To me this is to much speculation without any canon support.


I'm pretty sure the CS has access to steam generation technology. Energy generation is the only trick. And if you want canon support for that bit, consider a bow that shoots laser bolts generated by pulling a string pump...thingy. Back of Rifts spirit west. It's a MDC bow and laser arrow system. :)

What you are giving them is more than just a steam generation system. The bow you pointed out is something allot of people think as broken. The two alone do not give the CS control over weather, you are using your own logic to justify giving the CS power they do not have in any books.

So I say you have no Canon support for giving the CS the ability to manipulate weather this way. So I find your statement that the CS can do it is in error.

If it could be done easily Atlantis would have done it (they hate vampires.)
The south American nation fighting them would have done it. (Think it was the silver republic or something like that.)
The Smeging rain god that is loosing ground to them would have done it.

Use of such a weapon would violate Canon CS policy on the non use of environmentally damaging weapons. (apparently putting a nuke core in every peace of gear is ok but can't shoot weapons that might affect the environment.)
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

The Artist Formerly wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:So you are assuming they have an ability that the books do not say they do. In addition A rain god is loosing ground to them he has more direct control over rain.
At the level of heat of plasma it might split the water it to hygiene on oxygen and not produce steam. To me this is to much speculation without any canon support.


I'm pretty sure the CS has access to steam generation technology.


I have to agree.
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Kagashi »

The Artist Formerly wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:So you are assuming they have an ability that the books do not say they do. In addition A rain god is loosing ground to them he has more direct control over rain.
At the level of heat of plasma it might split the water it to hygiene on oxygen and not produce steam. To me this is to much speculation without any canon support.


I'm pretty sure the CS has access to steam generation technology. Energy generation is the only trick. And if you want canon support for that bit, consider a bow that shoots laser bolts generated by pulling a string pump...thingy. Back of Rifts spirit west. It's a MDC bow and laser arrow system. :)


Heck, we seed existing clouds to create rain when we want to make it rain in our time and place of choosing today. Given the CS is a higher level of tech than we are, I see no reason why they couldnt create the clouds from scratch. However, we just do not have any canon references that they practice this technique.
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Kagashi »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Splicers is also a precedent for an entire planet where magic doesn't really work, IIRC.


Which is explained in RDB7 Megaverse Builder as to why that dimension is the way that it is. Same for why tech does not work in the Palladium world. (Dimensional Energy Vortex, p 15)
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by flatline »

The Artist Formerly wrote:
I'm pretty sure the CS has access to steam generation technology.


Converting millions of gallons of water into steam will make the local area pretty soggy, but the vast majority of that moisture will never make it high enough into the atmosphere to contribute to rainfall of any kind.

At best, the CS could try to "seed" clouds to encourage existing atmospheric moisture to become rain, but I do not see this being effective or reliable enough to be a useful weapon against the vampires.

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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Mack »

The CS's best tool for holding the Vampires at bay is a combination of Dog Boys and Skelebots. The 'bots would need their programming and weapons changed to focus on vampires, but the 'bots endurance/immunities nicely combine with Dog Boys' sensing abilities. Together, the CS can create remarkable anti-vampire hunter/killer teams.

But that just for holding the vamps at bay.

If the CS really wanted to attack the vampires, then they'd have to go a bit more... medieval. Wipe out every human/humanoid village to deny the vampires both their food and replacements. Yes, that's an evil approach, but I could see elements of the CS justifying it because those people "were already lost to the demons... better that we end their misery."
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Kagashi »

Killer Cyborg wrote:The CS retired 3.2 million old-style SAMAS when the new styles came out.
Which means that they have ~3.2 million SAMAS Pilots.


Not sure I agree with the logic here. Just because you have the hardware, does not mean you have the same number of bodies. While going up against things like dragons, that same pilot might go through 5 suits before either he is killed or the dragon is killed. The CS may have just cranked out suits knowing they would be damaged and replaced quickly, utilizing the same core of pilots.

Or you can look at it the same way the USAF uses aircraft where there are an overwhelming number of pilots than actual aircraft. Unlike the past, or like anime like Robotech, individual aircraft are not assigned to a pilot or crew. Rather a pilot or crew are assigned a particular tail for that specific mission. If this is the case of how the CS runs things, there might be 5 times the number of pilots than SAMAS (although based on the other canon numbers we have for other categories would suggest that having 16 million pilots is a bit ridiculous).
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Kagashi wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:The CS retired 3.2 million old-style SAMAS when the new styles came out.
Which means that they have ~3.2 million SAMAS Pilots.


Not sure I agree with the logic here. Just because you have the hardware, does not mean you have the same number of bodies. While going up against things like dragons, that same pilot might go through 5 suits before either he is killed or the dragon is killed. The CS may have just cranked out suits knowing they would be damaged and replaced quickly, utilizing the same core of pilots.


Possible, but not how any military I know of has worked at any time in history.
And the odds of one pilot living through multiple suit destructions seems pretty low... at least, low enough that the CS probably wouldn't base their logistics on the assumption that things would typically pan out that way.

Or you can look at it the same way the USAF uses aircraft where there are an overwhelming number of pilots than actual aircraft. Unlike the past, or like anime like Robotech, individual aircraft are not assigned to a pilot or crew. Rather a pilot or crew are assigned a particular tail for that specific mission. If this is the case of how the CS runs things, there might be 5 times the number of pilots than SAMAS (although based on the other canon numbers we have for other categories would suggest that having 16 million pilots is a bit ridiculous).


Yes. That is also possible... but I'd assume that the ratio wouldn't be nearly that large with the military proper.


Edit
Keep in mind the following things:
1. CS Grunts can and do pilot SAMAS suits. So I was discussing pilots overall, not just the SAMAS Pilot OCC.
2. The SAMAS Pilot OCC also pilots Sky Cycles, Enforcers, and other stuff. So not all of them will actually be using SAMAS.
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Kagashi »

Regardless, the CS still has access to more power just in terms of SAMAS units and dog boys than all the other communities has in general population combined. Not debating that at all, rather I agree with you.
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-Robotech: Errata for Marines timeline, Masters Deluxe with SC and UEEF gear, Spaceships
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Kagashi wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:The CS retired 3.2 million old-style SAMAS when the new styles came out.
Which means that they have ~3.2 million SAMAS Pilots.


Not sure I agree with the logic here. Just because you have the hardware, does not mean you have the same number of bodies. While going up against things like dragons, that same pilot might go through 5 suits before either he is killed or the dragon is killed. The CS may have just cranked out suits knowing they would be damaged and replaced quickly, utilizing the same core of pilots.


Possible, but not how any military I know of has worked at any time in history.
And the odds of one pilot living through multiple suit destructions seems pretty low... at least, low enough that the CS probably wouldn't base their logistics on the assumption that things would typically pan out that way.

Or you can look at it the same way the USAF uses aircraft where there are an overwhelming number of pilots than actual aircraft. Unlike the past, or like anime like Robotech, individual aircraft are not assigned to a pilot or crew. Rather a pilot or crew are assigned a particular tail for that specific mission. If this is the case of how the CS runs things, there might be 5 times the number of pilots than SAMAS (although based on the other canon numbers we have for other categories would suggest that having 16 million pilots is a bit ridiculous).


Yes. That is also possible... but I'd assume that the ratio wouldn't be nearly that large with the military proper.


Edit
Keep in mind the following things:
1. CS Grunts can and do pilot SAMAS suits. So I was discussing pilots overall, not just the SAMAS Pilot OCC.
2. The SAMAS Pilot OCC also pilots Sky Cycles, Enforcers, and other stuff. So not all of them will actually be using SAMAS.

To me the CS grunt piloting PA seams odd, and out of theme. Looking at the overall skills it appears they where building an 11M but gave them robot combat instead of weapon systems skill. They can pilot tanks and APC but lack the skill to shoot the main weapons, while they learned to fight in PA but do not have pilot skills for it.
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by flatline »

Blue_Lion wrote:To me the CS grunt piloting PA seams odd, and out of theme. Looking at the overall skills it appears they where building an 11M but gave them robot combat instead of weapon systems skill. They can pilot tanks and APC but lack the skill to shoot the main weapons, while they learned to fight in PA but do not have pilot skills for it.


Perhaps a new thread to discuss how to reconcile the CS Grunt skills in a way that makes sense?

--flatline
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

flatline wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:To me the CS grunt piloting PA seams odd, and out of theme. Looking at the overall skills it appears they where building an 11M but gave them robot combat instead of weapon systems skill. They can pilot tanks and APC but lack the skill to shoot the main weapons, while they learned to fight in PA but do not have pilot skills for it.


Perhaps a new thread to discuss how to reconcile the CS Grunt skills in a way that makes sense?

--flatline

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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Anybody with the Robot/PA combat skills automatically gets the pilot skill as well.
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

flatline wrote:
The Artist Formerly wrote:
I'm pretty sure the CS has access to steam generation technology.


Converting millions of gallons of water into steam will make the local area pretty soggy, but the vast majority of that moisture will never make it high enough into the atmosphere to contribute to rainfall of any kind.

At best, the CS could try to "seed" clouds to encourage existing atmospheric moisture to become rain, but I do not see this being effective or reliable enough to be a useful weapon against the vampires.

--flatline

No, it's just a question of physic on that scale. Consider how much effort it must take to get a Death's head transport up in the air. Massive steam releases would be child's play. The only limiter is electrical power, and as the pump action laser bow...thingy shows, that's not a deal. Once you've solved the power problem, everything else, no matter how silly, is achievable.
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Subjugator »

Blue_Lion wrote:What you are giving them is more than just a steam generation system. The bow you pointed out is something allot of people think as broken. The two alone do not give the CS control over weather, you are using your own logic to justify giving the CS power they do not have in any books.


Whether or not a lot of people think it's broken is irrelevant. It's within reach of their technological level.

So I say you have no Canon support for giving the CS the ability to manipulate weather this way. So I find your statement that the CS can do it is in error.


They have MD armor and weapons, tiny nuclear power generators, computers that would make our most advanced computer designers weep with jealousy, and vast libraries of technology we can't even begin to dream of, but you think they lack information on something so basic as cloud seeding?

Vast clouds of steam can be created rather easily with enough heat, and you're presupposing they'd use plasma rather than more efficient methods to turn water to steam. Not only that, but doing so on seawater would give them a ready supply of large amounts of salt, which has separate value.

If it could be done easily Atlantis would have done it (they hate vampires.)


...or Atlantis doesn't want to seem like they're trying to expand into the rest of the world.

The south American nation fighting them would have done it. (Think it was the silver republic or something like that.)


IIRC, the South American nations have difficulty getting significant numbers of nuclear power supplies.

The Smeging rain god that is loosing ground to them would have done it.


A rain deity will not think to use technology to achieve his ends. He'll use magic. That's a pretty common theme in the game.

Use of such a weapon would violate Canon CS policy on the non use of environmentally damaging weapons. (apparently putting a nuke core in every peace of gear is ok but can't shoot weapons that might affect the environment.)


You're assuming rainmaking is environmentally damaging. It'll change things, but damage and change are not the same thing. Given that they use nuclear warheads, I'd say their concern about a little rain is probably going to be tiny.

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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Subjugator »

flatline wrote:
The Artist Formerly wrote:
I'm pretty sure the CS has access to steam generation technology.


Converting millions of gallons of water into steam will make the local area pretty soggy, but the vast majority of that moisture will never make it high enough into the atmosphere to contribute to rainfall of any kind.

At best, the CS could try to "seed" clouds to encourage existing atmospheric moisture to become rain, but I do not see this being effective or reliable enough to be a useful weapon against the vampires.

--flatline


Don't limit it to millions of gallons. A cubic foot of water is approximately 7.48 gallons of water. Try using 200,000,000 cubic feet of water (a cube about 585 feet on a side), or about 1,496,000,000 gallons of water. Given the amount of energy expended in each energy blast, I think the ability to turn water to steam, even on that scale, is well within the bounds of reality.

If they really put their minds to it, I think doing so on a daily basis is well within the bounds of reality.

For that matter, consider what Naruni does when a planet owes them money. Let them put *their* minds to it, and the vampire problem could be ended pretty readily.

/Sub
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Subjugator »

The problem I see the CS having to fight with this has nothing to do with steam and such and everything to do with the fact that the Vamps can have several hundred thousand new vampires fighting on their side in three days.

That was mentioned by Kev as an offhand comment at GenCon when the revised VK books came out.

/Sub
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by flatline »

I don't care how much water you turn into steam, most of it will condense right there and turn back into liquid water. Very little of it will make it high enough into the atmosphere to become rain.

--flatline
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Subjugator »

You think it cannot be transported and vaporized?

They can just pipe it up and spray it...it wouldn't even require heat at that point.

/Sub
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Kagashi »

Subjugator wrote:The problem I see the CS having to fight with this has nothing to do with steam and such and everything to do with the fact that the Vamps can have several hundred thousand new vampires fighting on their side in three days.

That was mentioned by Kev as an offhand comment at GenCon when the revised VK books came out.

/Sub


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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Subjugator »

Kagashi wrote:
Subjugator wrote:The problem I see the CS having to fight with this has nothing to do with steam and such and everything to do with the fact that the Vamps can have several hundred thousand new vampires fighting on their side in three days.

That was mentioned by Kev as an offhand comment at GenCon when the revised VK books came out.

/Sub


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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

flatline wrote:I don't care how much water you turn into steam, most of it will condense right there and turn back into liquid water. Very little of it will make it high enough into the atmosphere to become rain.

--flatline

Consider the scale of the some of the other CS operations. Even at 2% efficiency, this isn't out of their reach. And such an operation would we much less expensive then having to fight a ground war in Mexico. The only reason we don't use such techniques in the real world is the power problem.

Edit; Flatline, also consider they use simple mirrors and sunlight for evaporation technique salt farming. That water doesn't fall back on to the salt beds, it evaporates away.
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by eliakon »

Yes, it is theoretically possible for a specific GM to extrapolate that the CS has the ability to alter the weather sufficiently to cause rain on demand. However just because it could, in theory, be justified by extrapolation of existing canon technology does not mean that it is possible to argue that canon supports that the CS has the ability to do so. There are too many unknowns and variables that would require either a canon ruling or a GMs ruling before it is more than just a potential theoretical 'what if' exercise.
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Re: Is it time the CS finally loses one?

Unread post by Nightmask »

eliakon wrote:Yes, it is theoretically possible for a specific GM to extrapolate that the CS has the ability to alter the weather sufficiently to cause rain on demand. However just because it could, in theory, be justified by extrapolation of existing canon technology does not mean that it is possible to argue that canon supports that the CS has the ability to do so. There are too many unknowns and variables that would require either a canon ruling or a GMs ruling before it is more than just a potential theoretical 'what if' exercise.


Wouldn't matter much anyway, since at least one vampire kingdom has a demonic ally whose specific powers are weather control that it uses to force the minimal amount of rainfall possible and can only be negated/overcome by similar magical means. So trying to create rain to deal with the vampires in at least that kingdom (and it likely affects other nearby areas in other kingdoms as well) isn't going to do you any good.
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