Is it time the CS finally loses one?

[HWalsh]

The CS always wins. That seems to have many people more than a little upset. Maybe it is time the CS loses a major battle. What does everyone think?

Think the time is finally right to see Prosec stumble? Even if he doesn't fall.

[taalismn]

Not going to happen. The CS is like a favorite comic book villain; they're familiar, they're comfortable, and you just can't get rid of them no matter how many times you shoot them, punch them with superstrength, push them off a cliff, or lock them away in a superdimensional prison.
In part it's because for all their technology and numbers, they're all still essentially human and human-scale evil...you can mow down the stormtroopers and blow up the bridges and maybe thwart a scheme for a while, feel good about it, and maybe have a slim chance of making a difference , because you're not facing some Cosmic Horror that's impossible to completely eradicate and will likely show up eons down the road again to devour your descendents.
And because the CSFans will compare the CS to the Necessary Evil, and perhaps more idealistically to the sorts of generals who win wars because they're perfectly willing to do what it takes, such as throwing hordes of men to the cannon and burning villages to insure Victory for Humanity.
You may slow them, but you're not going to stop them. That's going to take Alternate Universe/Timeline amounts of counter-handwavium to counter the CS character/organizational shielding.

[HWalsh]

Not going to happen. The CS is like a favorite comic book villain; they're familiar, they're comfortable, and you just can't get rid of them no matter how many times you shoot them, punch them with superstrength, push them off a cliff, or lock them away in a superdimensional prison.
In part it's because for all their technology and numbers, they're all still essentially human and human-scale evil...you can mow down the stormtroopers and blow up the bridges and maybe thwart a scheme for a while, feel good about it, and maybe have a slim chance of making a difference , because you're not facing some Cosmic Horror that's impossible to completely eradicate and will likely show up eons down the road again to devour your descendents.
And because the CSFans will compare the CS to the Necessary Evil, and perhaps more idealistically to the sorts of generals who win wars because they're perfectly willing to do what it takes, such as throwing hordes of men to the cannon and burning villages to insure Victory for Humanity.
You may slow them, but you're not going to stop them. That's going to take Alternate Universe/Timeline amounts of counter-handwavium to counter the CS character/organizational shielding.

I never said get rid of them. Just have them lose.

Meaning, say, they pick a fight with someone (maybe Lazlo) and they lose. They have to fall back, they decide to abandon the attack, they go home defeated.

[taalismn]

Sure, I'd love to see that, but again, IMHO we're not going to see any sort of canon defeat that the CS can't ultimately rebound from. Smaller tactical engagements(with the PCs) and ghost towns(Madhaven) they can't bounce back from, but not the big campaigns...Sorceror's Revenge? Followed by the diversion through Xiticix territory and the Fall of Tolkeen. Free Quebec? FQ waltzed back into their arms when Tolkeen tried to subvert them. Other major crisises like the Four Horsemen or the Mechanoid Invasion have been conveniently handled by Gatherings of Heroes and other third parties while the CS shored up their defenses and sent a few drivlets of scouts and rangers to gather more intel.

I'd love to see the Minion War take the CS down a peg, but all signs point towards a win for Rifts Earth also being a major PR coup for the CS as the stalwart defenders of North America and Earth.

[Killer Cyborg]

Define "always."

[glitterboy2098]

the events leading to the Juicer Uprisings were not exactly a success..

[ShadowLogan]

the events leading to the Juicer Uprisings were not exactly a success..

FQ dealt a serious blow to the CS Navy IIRC (WB22).

Events in the war with Tolkeen could also be seen as "not exactly a success" also.

Still I think the OP had in mind more lasting loss since SoT the CS seems stronger than ever.

[Killer Cyborg]

the events leading to the Juicer Uprisings were not exactly a success..

FQ dealt a serious blow to the CS Navy IIRC (WB22).

Events in the war with Tolkeen could also be seen as "not exactly a success" also.

Still I think the OP had in mind more lasting loss since SoT the CS seems stronger than ever.

They haven't seen a real challenge yet.

[Nightmask]

It was time for it to lose one when it went after Tolkeen. Everyone who should have gotten involved didn't, including bitter enemies of the CS who should have promptly attacked while it was busy with Tolkeen but instead bizarrely sat back and said 'gee I hate the CS for its history of persecuting and killing my kind and to show that hate I'm going to sit back and watch while they kill even more people like myself and do nothing else'.

[Kagashi]

It was time for it to lose one when it went after Tolkeen. Everyone who should have gotten involved didn't, including bitter enemies of the CS who should have promptly attacked while it was busy with Tolkeen but instead bizarrely sat back and said 'gee I hate the CS for its history of persecuting and killing my kind and to show that hate I'm going to sit back and watch while they kill even more people like myself and do nothing else'.

You mean like the rest of the world watched as Germany and the Soviet Union started splitting up Europe in 1939? Yeah, that scenario is completely unrealistic.

Its human nature to not want to get involved.

[Kagashi]

the events leading to the Juicer Uprisings were not exactly a success..

FQ dealt a serious blow to the CS Navy IIRC (WB22).

Events in the war with Tolkeen could also be seen as "not exactly a success" also.

Still I think the OP had in mind more lasting loss since SoT the CS seems stronger than ever.

IDK, losing Free Quebec as an official member of the Coalition was pretty significant. If FQ were still part of the CS during the SoT, I could have seen a quicker victory in Tolkeen and a continuation of the Campaign of Unity, to include attacking Lazlo. Instead, the CS spent 4 years fighting resources that used to be in their inventory. Lazlo should be happy.

[Nightmask]

It was time for it to lose one when it went after Tolkeen. Everyone who should have gotten involved didn't, including bitter enemies of the CS who should have promptly attacked while it was busy with Tolkeen but instead bizarrely sat back and said 'gee I hate the CS for its history of persecuting and killing my kind and to show that hate I'm going to sit back and watch while they kill even more people like myself and do nothing else'.

You mean like the rest of the world watched as Germany and the Soviet Union started splitting up Europe in 1939? Yeah, that scenario is completely unrealistic.

Its human nature to not want to get involved.

The rest of the world was separated by oceans in an era where prop engine airplanes were height of aeronautical technology, not right next door when the enemy has a stated goal of conquering and killing everyone else and transportation that can cross the continent in less than a day and millions of troops. So yes it's extremely unrealistic for everyone to sit back and watch an event playing out just hundreds of miles away by aggressors with the stated goal of killing you too and they're demonstrating they are going to carry it out, especially from people who WANT to kill members of the CS and destroy it as a nation. It's completely unrealistic that people like that would sit back and do absolutely nothing rather than attack their enemy while it's distracted.

[Killer Cyborg]

It was time for it to lose one when it went after Tolkeen. Everyone who should have gotten involved didn't, including bitter enemies of the CS who should have promptly attacked while it was busy with Tolkeen but instead bizarrely sat back and said 'gee I hate the CS for its history of persecuting and killing my kind and to show that hate I'm going to sit back and watch while they kill even more people like myself and do nothing else'.

The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend, and there's no sense wasting good blood after bad.
Tolkeen did get a LOT of support from enemies of the Coalition... it's just that that support didn't matter much in the long run.
More support still wouldn't have mattered much, except there'd be more dead bodies scattered around the smoking ruins of Tolkeen, and perhaps some more smoking ruins of other citystates that decided to get directly involved.

Again, the CS has more guys in SAMAS than most places have in their entire population.
They have more Dog Boys than the entire population of Tolkeen AND all the people who rushed to Tolkeen's aid.

Look at it like the US's recent activities in the Middle East.
Like the CS, we went to war with two nations at once.
Like the CS, we have many enemies who hate us.
Like the CS, we saw the people we were attacking bolstered by enemy forces from all around.
Like the CS, we pretty much crushed all hard opposition anyway.
Because, like the CS, we have a large and powerful enough nation, with enough high technology, that even the combined forces of our enemies aren't really going to stop us.

Do the math.
Look at the CS populations and their military numbers.
Look at the populations of their enemies.
Look at the technology differences.

As we're told from the outset (RMB 191):
The Coalition has the most powerful army in the known world. Their level of technology is unsurpassed in the Americas.
And that's NOT by a small margin.

The City of Dweomer has about 50k people as of 105 PA (FoM 17)
The Kingdom of Dunscon has about 31,500 people (FoM 32)
Magestar has <2k people (FoM 53)
Stormspire has <20k people (FoM 59)

So the Federations of Magic, even if they decided to all work together to chip in, and even if ever man/woman/child/creature decided to fight and was capable of it, could bring about 103,500 more bodies to the war.
That's a drop in the bucket.

New Lazlo (RUE 31) has a population of 86k today, but 34k of that are Tolkeen refugees, so their entire population was only about 50k before the SoT.

The city of Lazlo is one of the relative big-boys, boasting a population of 1.25 million people (RUE 21).

So let's just say that every man/woman/child/critter in these areas banded together. They'd have an army of 1,403,500 or so troops.
The Coalition States, back in 100-101 PA, had a minimum of 1,400,000 Dog Boys alone (SB1 12-13), and that's going off of the conservative numbers.
The numbers more likely were as high as 2.4 million Dog Boys, and "that number is growing by the day."

They also have around 3.2 million SAMAS pilots.
They also have at the very least least 1.6 million ISS Peacekeepers.
God only knows how many grunts they have, but (iirc) most of the million grunts used in the SoT were new recruits that didn't even really dip into the CS' regular numbers.

Do the math.
The CS has more disposable cannon fodder troops than they have enemies.
They have the overall best technology in North America.
They have the most resources.

And NOT by anything resembling small amount.

[Kagashi]

It was time for it to lose one when it went after Tolkeen. Everyone who should have gotten involved didn't, including bitter enemies of the CS who should have promptly attacked while it was busy with Tolkeen but instead bizarrely sat back and said 'gee I hate the CS for its history of persecuting and killing my kind and to show that hate I'm going to sit back and watch while they kill even more people like myself and do nothing else'.

You mean like the rest of the world watched as Germany and the Soviet Union started splitting up Europe in 1939? Yeah, that scenario is completely unrealistic.

Its human nature to not want to get involved.

The rest of the world was separated by oceans in an era where prop engine airplanes were height of aeronautical technology, not right next door when the enemy has a stated goal of conquering and killing everyone else and transportation that can cross the continent in less than a day and millions of troops. So yes it's extremely unrealistic for everyone to sit back and watch an event playing out just hundreds of miles away by aggressors with the stated goal of killing you too and they're demonstrating they are going to carry it out, especially from people who WANT to kill members of the CS and destroy it as a nation. It's completely unrealistic that people like that would sit back and do absolutely nothing rather than attack their enemy while it's distracted.

I disagree. When did that hypothetical NATO force come sweeping into Ukraine to defend against Russian aggression? Oh yeah, they didnt yet, despite the fact that NATO's entire purpose for existing is to defend against Russian aggression. And this wasnt even current Russia's act of aggression. They in recent years attacked Georgia and non-traditionally against Lithuania. And NATO, the neighboring nations, did nothing but point fingers because Georgia and Ukraine are not part of the NATO alliance. But Russia is clearly demonstrating that they are carrying out European land grabs in nations which were former soviet satellites. Yet, the rest of Europe does nothing. No, this is not an unrealistic scenario. Why would an individual nation want to be involved against an opponent whom is militarily overwhelming? Why should Belarus, a former Soviet State not aligned with NATO, want to come to the aid of Ukraine? After all, they might be next...or they might not be a target at all. If they support Ukraine, they open the door for Russia to attack them too and they will fall to the might of the Russian military as well. Yes...they will simply sit back and watch Russian speaking Ukraine be torn apart and absorbed back into Russia just like Crimea did, despite the fact their country matches that criteria as well.

In terms of the fictitious Rifts, the same thing is happening. Lazlo is the biggest populated non-agressor in the region. If they attacked the CS in response to helping Tolkeen, it would have delayed the SoT by about...a few weeks at best. And SoT book 6 would have both Minnesota and lower Ontario under CS control. This is why nobody got involved aside *individuals* from those nations coming in to fight as freedom fighters, much like what happens in Iraq and Afghanistan. Many of the Taliban and Al-Qaeda fighters we kill/capture are not from Afghanistan or Iraq. But as KC pointed out...the CS has more disposable mutant dogs than Lazlo has population, and that doesnt even tap into Skelebots whom are being poured out of CS factories by the millions and would be no loss of life against taking over Lazlo.

[HWalsh]

It was time for it to lose one when it went after Tolkeen. Everyone who should have gotten involved didn't, including bitter enemies of the CS who should have promptly attacked while it was busy with Tolkeen but instead bizarrely sat back and said 'gee I hate the CS for its history of persecuting and killing my kind and to show that hate I'm going to sit back and watch while they kill even more people like myself and do nothing else'.

You mean like the rest of the world watched as Germany and the Soviet Union started splitting up Europe in 1939? Yeah, that scenario is completely unrealistic.

Its human nature to not want to get involved.

The rest of the world was separated by oceans in an era where prop engine airplanes were height of aeronautical technology, not right next door when the enemy has a stated goal of conquering and killing everyone else and transportation that can cross the continent in less than a day and millions of troops. So yes it's extremely unrealistic for everyone to sit back and watch an event playing out just hundreds of miles away by aggressors with the stated goal of killing you too and they're demonstrating they are going to carry it out, especially from people who WANT to kill members of the CS and destroy it as a nation. It's completely unrealistic that people like that would sit back and do absolutely nothing rather than attack their enemy while it's distracted.

I disagree. When did that hypothetical NATO force come sweeping into Ukraine to defend against Russian aggression? Oh yeah, they didnt yet, despite the fact that NATO's entire purpose for existing is to defend against Russian aggression. And this wasnt even current Russia's act of aggression. They in recent years attacked Georgia and non-traditionally against Lithuania. And NATO, the neighboring nations, did nothing but point fingers because Georgia and Ukraine are not part of the NATO alliance. But Russia is clearly demonstrating that they are carrying out European land grabs in nations which were former soviet satellites. Yet, the rest of Europe does nothing. No, this is not an unrealistic scenario. Why would an individual nation want to be involved against an opponent whom is militarily overwhelming? Why should Belarus, a former Soviet State not aligned with NATO, want to come to the aid of Ukraine? After all, they might be next...or they might not be a target at all. If they support Ukraine, they open the door for Russia to attack them too and they will fall to the might of the Russian military as well. Yes...they will simply sit back and watch Russian speaking Ukraine be torn apart and absorbed back into Russia just like Crimea did, despite the fact their country matches that criteria as well.

In terms of the fictitious Rifts, the same thing is happening. Lazlo is the biggest populated non-agressor in the region. If they attacked the CS in response to helping Tolkeen, it would have delayed the SoT by about...a few weeks at best. And SoT book 6 would have both Minnesota and lower Ontario under CS control. This is why nobody got involved aside *individuals* from those nations coming in to fight as freedom fighters, much like what happens in Iraq and Afghanistan. Many of the Taliban and Al-Qaeda fighters we kill/capture are not from Afghanistan or Iraq. But as KC pointed out...the CS has more disposable mutant dogs than Lazlo has population, and that doesnt even tap into Skelebots whom are being poured out of CS factories by the millions and would be no loss of life against taking over Lazlo.

This is where WMDs come in. To be honest.

If the numbers quoted in this post and above are all correct then that is a serious issue. The CS is unstoppable. There is nothing now, or ever, that can stand up to them. Therefor there is no drama in anything they are involved in.

This makes them very unrealistic, and un-enjoyable, enemies.

Even the Empire, in Star Wars, wasn't so powerful that nobody could stand up to them.

[Kagashi]

I think the real checks and balances comes from Atlantis, whom takes the CS's millions and turns that into billions. Not from the smaller North American nations. But even Splynn cannot just up and take over the world, because that would attract the attention of rival Splugorth who do not want to see any one entity control Rifts Earth due to it being a Megaversal Crossroad.

Lazlo itself, or even in an alliance with every other nation in North America cannot stand up to the CS, but if the CS were to actually achieve the campaign of unity, Atlantis would intervene, but not take over completely.

Plus now, we have the Minion War to contend with. With hordes of Dyvals and Demons pouring through rifts with seemingly unlimited numbers, Atlantis doesnt need to worry about keeping the CS in check and the Minion War players will not dare fight Atlantis (Megaverse in Flames, p 15). So for now, everything is going to stay in place.

[Killer Cyborg]

It was time for it to lose one when it went after Tolkeen. Everyone who should have gotten involved didn't, including bitter enemies of the CS who should have promptly attacked while it was busy with Tolkeen but instead bizarrely sat back and said 'gee I hate the CS for its history of persecuting and killing my kind and to show that hate I'm going to sit back and watch while they kill even more people like myself and do nothing else'.

You mean like the rest of the world watched as Germany and the Soviet Union started splitting up Europe in 1939? Yeah, that scenario is completely unrealistic.

Its human nature to not want to get involved.

The rest of the world was separated by oceans in an era where prop engine airplanes were height of aeronautical technology, not right next door when the enemy has a stated goal of conquering and killing everyone else and transportation that can cross the continent in less than a day and millions of troops. So yes it's extremely unrealistic for everyone to sit back and watch an event playing out just hundreds of miles away by aggressors with the stated goal of killing you too and they're demonstrating they are going to carry it out, especially from people who WANT to kill members of the CS and destroy it as a nation. It's completely unrealistic that people like that would sit back and do absolutely nothing rather than attack their enemy while it's distracted.

I disagree. When did that hypothetical NATO force come sweeping into Ukraine to defend against Russian aggression? Oh yeah, they didnt yet, despite the fact that NATO's entire purpose for existing is to defend against Russian aggression. And this wasnt even current Russia's act of aggression. They in recent years attacked Georgia and non-traditionally against Lithuania. And NATO, the neighboring nations, did nothing but point fingers because Georgia and Ukraine are not part of the NATO alliance. But Russia is clearly demonstrating that they are carrying out European land grabs in nations which were former soviet satellites. Yet, the rest of Europe does nothing. No, this is not an unrealistic scenario. Why would an individual nation want to be involved against an opponent whom is militarily overwhelming? Why should Belarus, a former Soviet State not aligned with NATO, want to come to the aid of Ukraine? After all, they might be next...or they might not be a target at all. If they support Ukraine, they open the door for Russia to attack them too and they will fall to the might of the Russian military as well. Yes...they will simply sit back and watch Russian speaking Ukraine be torn apart and absorbed back into Russia just like Crimea did, despite the fact their country matches that criteria as well.

In terms of the fictitious Rifts, the same thing is happening. Lazlo is the biggest populated non-agressor in the region. If they attacked the CS in response to helping Tolkeen, it would have delayed the SoT by about...a few weeks at best. And SoT book 6 would have both Minnesota and lower Ontario under CS control. This is why nobody got involved aside *individuals* from those nations coming in to fight as freedom fighters, much like what happens in Iraq and Afghanistan. Many of the Taliban and Al-Qaeda fighters we kill/capture are not from Afghanistan or Iraq. But as KC pointed out...the CS has more disposable mutant dogs than Lazlo has population, and that doesnt even tap into Skelebots whom are being poured out of CS factories by the millions and would be no loss of life against taking over Lazlo.

This is where WMDs come in. To be honest.

If the numbers quoted in this post and above are all correct then that is a serious issue. The CS is unstoppable. There is nothing now, or ever, that can stand up to them.

There's around 1.2 billion Xiticix.
And the CS would be in danger from ARCHIE, and they'd be flat-out destroyed if Atlantis decided to take them out, or if the Mechanoids got a serious foothold.
Triax could probably do the job as well, although they don't have motivation for it.
Then there's the Vampire Kingdoms...
There's plenty that can stop the CS... they're just the biggest nation in North America.

Again, we're pretty much told this at the outset:
RMB 139
The Coalition's immediate opposition will be the city of Tolkeen... Without question, Tolkeen is the largest and most powerful city in the area...I fear Tolkeen has no hope for survival against an all-out siege by the CS.
The real opposition that awaits the Coalition is the alien insect race known as the Xiticix...

Tolkeen is the biggest, baddest city in their area, but they don't have any hope in an all-out battle, and the REAL opposition is the xiticix.

Therefor there is no drama in anything they are involved in.

Oh, I disagree.
Schindler couldn't do anything to destroy the Nazis, but that doesn't mean that his List was un-dramatic.
The Great Escape didn't overthrow the Nazis either, but it had plenty of drama and action.
Same with Saving Private Ryan- it wasn't about defeating the Nazis.
Same with Victory (aka Escape to Victory).
Casablanca.
Kelly's Heroes
The Dirty Dozen
Catch-22
Raid on Rommel
Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS
A Bridge Too Far
Force 10 from Navarone
Sophie's Choice
Memphis Belle
A Midnight Clear
The Tuskegee Airmen
Mother Night
Enemy at the Gates
... I could go on.

An enemy army/government/occupying force NOT being overall defeatable by the main characters doesn't remove drama.
I'd say it adds a lot more drama than a situation where victory seems easy.

Even the Empire, in Star Wars, wasn't so powerful that nobody could stand up to them.

Well, yeah, they WERE. The Rebels fought the Empire, but got rather routinely trounced.
The Empire eventually defeated itself by putting all of its eggs into one highly-flawed basket, twice.
But in any kind of stand-up fight?
The Rebels could win skirmishes, but they didn't stand a chance overall. That's why they had to flee Hoth.

[HWalsh]

Well, yeah, they WERE. The Rebels fought the Empire, but got rather routinely trounced.
The Empire eventually defeated itself by putting all of its eggs into one highly-flawed basket, twice.
But in any kind of stand-up fight?
The Rebels could win skirmishes, but they didn't stand a chance overall. That's why they had to flee Hoth.

Actually... They weren't.

It is a long explanation, and I'll take it to PM's, but you woefully misunderstand the state of the Empire during that time period. (The EU made it quite clear.) They were technologically being outmatched, their economy was failing, and by the time they "put their eggs in one basket" they were on the verge of internal collapse. The reason they went that route was because it was the only way they could possibly maintain control.

[Killer Cyborg]

(The EU made it quite clear.)

Meaning "the unofficial stuff that was ignored in the movies."

[ZINO]

Is it time the CS finally loses one?....let me think on this one...............................................................................NO !!!!! IMHO well why? well pick which is your lesser evil here? demon or humans ?
why i hope you understand that .

[Mack]

Per Aftermath, the CS had 405,000 troops killed, and another 1,400,000 wounded during the SoT (not counting Dog Boys & mercs). For comparison, that's the same number of dead and twice as many wounded as the US lost in WWII. Not to mention that the CS "lost" all of Free Quebec in the process.

So I wouldn't characterize the SoT as an easy victory for the CS. Yes, they won--but it certainly wasn't a cakewalk.
Personally, I'd put the CS into a "licking their wounds" mode for a much longer period following the SoT.

(And as an aside, I was always surprised at the number of wounded survivors, given the nature of MDC combat.)

[Killer Cyborg]

Per Aftermath, the CS had 405,000 troops killed, and another 1,400,000 wounded during the SoT (not counting Dog Boys & mercs). For comparison, that's the same number of dead and twice as many wounded as the US lost in WWII. Not to mention that the CS "lost" all of Free Quebec in the process.

So I wouldn't characterize the SoT as an easy victory for the CS. Yes, they won--but it certainly wasn't a cakewalk.
Personally, I'd put the CS into a "licking their wounds" mode for a much longer period following the SoT.

I'd put it as "a much harder victory than would have been expected."

(And as an aside, I was always surprised at the number of wounded survivors, given the nature of MDC combat.)

Yeah... I guess they essentially used the "taking SDC damage while in MDC armor" rules into account for those numbers.
Not that they would have necessarily thought of it that way.

[Mack]

Per Aftermath, the CS had 405,000 troops killed, and another 1,400,000 wounded during the SoT (not counting Dog Boys & mercs). For comparison, that's the same number of dead and twice as many wounded as the US lost in WWII. Not to mention that the CS "lost" all of Free Quebec in the process.

So I wouldn't characterize the SoT as an easy victory for the CS. Yes, they won--but it certainly wasn't a cakewalk.
Personally, I'd put the CS into a "licking their wounds" mode for a much longer period following the SoT.

I'd put it as "a much harder victory than would have been expected."

Agreed. I take it that the CS military hierarchy believed too much of their own propaganda prior to hostilities.

[flatline]

The CS always wins. That seems to have many people more than a little upset. Maybe it is time the CS loses a major battle. What does everyone think?

Think the time is finally right to see Prosec stumble? Even if he doesn't fall.

At the beginning of the campaign, tell the players that if they can't destroy a fortress city by the end of the campaign, then they're a bunch of losers.

Seriously, let the players figure out how to knock the CS down a level. That is way more satisfying than waiting for the authors to do it.

--flaltine

[Killer Cyborg]

The CS always wins. That seems to have many people more than a little upset. Maybe it is time the CS loses a major battle. What does everyone think?

Think the time is finally right to see Prosec stumble? Even if he doesn't fall.

At the beginning of the campaign, tell the players that if they can't destroy a fortress city by the end of the campaign, then they're a bunch of losers.

Seriously, let the players figure out how to knock the CS down a level. That is way more satisfying than waiting for the authors to do it.

--flaltine

I think I'd have to have one HELL of a good GM for that to be satisfying.

[BookWyrm]

Remember the old adage, there's always something bigger, meaner & nastier waiting in the wings....

[Svartalf]

Like ARCHIE and the sploogz

[flatline]

The CS is perfectly positioned to provide lots and lots of loot to characters powerful and bold enough to take it.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

The CS is perfectly positioned to provide lots and lots of loot to characters powerful and bold enough to take it.

--flatline

Oh, sure.
So's Atlantis or Asgard.

[HWalsh]

(The EU made it quite clear.)

Meaning "the unofficial stuff that was ignored in the movies."

Not really.

The " Empire Collapsing" is actually touched on in Episode IV, when Imperials state, "How will the Emperor maintane control?" And they referenced the Death Star as the method. Which was then destroyed.

Don't knock the EU CK, its not as "unofficial" as you think.

[Killer Cyborg]

(The EU made it quite clear.)

Meaning "the unofficial stuff that was ignored in the movies."

Not really.

The " Empire Collapsing" is actually touched on in Episode IV, when Imperials state, "How will the Emperor maintane control?" And they referenced the Death Star as the method. Which was then destroyed.

Don't knock the EU CK, its not as "unofficial" as you think.

Yeah, it is.

Either way, notice that the Empire didn't crumble after the first movie, when the Death Star was destroyed.

[HWalsh]

(The EU made it quite clear.)

Meaning "the unofficial stuff that was ignored in the movies."

Not really.

The " Empire Collapsing" is actually touched on in Episode IV, when Imperials state, "How will the Emperor maintane control?" And they referenced the Death Star as the method. Which was then destroyed.

Don't knock the EU CK, its not as "unofficial" as you think.

Yeah, it is.

Either way, notice that the Empire didn't crumble after the first movie, when the Death Star was destroyed.

No, its not. The canon hierarchy of the EU and the movies is muddy, but still there. There is still a canonical hierarchy in place. And see your PM box.

[Killer Cyborg]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon
In July 2001, Lucas gave his opinion on the matter of what is canon in Star Wars during an interview with Cinescape magazine:

There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "There’s my world, which is the movies, and there’s this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe—the licensing world of the books, games and comic books.

[HWalsh]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon
In July 2001, Lucas gave his opinion on the matter of what is canon in Star Wars during an interview with Cinescape magazine:

There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "There’s my world, which is the movies, and there’s this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe—the licensing world of the books, games and comic books.

Which was then retracted later by Lucas and Leland Chee. Do you need me to find the retraction link? I'm an old vet at this particular battle. Though I invite us to keep this in PMs.

[Mack]

OK, let's take the Stars Wars discussion to PMs, and return this to Rifts.

[grandmaster z0b]

As has already been said the CS has lost at least once to FQ. It wasn't a devastating loss but it was still pretty bad. Trying to attack FQ at the same time as Tolkeen was a strategic mistake and had they not withdrawn and made peace, could have led to the CS losing the war. Much in the same way that Germany attacking Russia was one of the main reasons they lost WW2.

That being said, yeah I think it would be interesting to see the CS lose a major conflict.

[Killer Cyborg]

As has already been said the CS has lost at least once to FQ. It wasn't a devastating loss but it was still pretty bad. Trying to attack FQ at the same time as Tolkeen was a strategic mistake and had they not withdrawn and made peace, could have led to the CS losing the war. Much in the same way that Germany attacking Russia was one of the main reasons they lost WW2.

That being said, yeah I think it would be interesting to see the CS lose a major conflict.

Probably in the Chinese Curse sense of "interesting," though.
Most of their major enemies are worse than they are.
Seeing the CS lose to the xiticix or vampires wouldn't exactly be a sight to make me cheer.

[taalismn]

[

Probably in the Chinese Curse sense of "interesting," though.
Most of their major enemies are worse than they are.
Seeing the CS lose to the xiticix or vampires wouldn't exactly be a sight to make me cheer.

Agreed.
It's a thin line, though, between being 'heroic' and being monsters in those circumstances
The CS grew out of the desperation of the last surviving human government organizations of the Golden Age in North America to survive, at a time when high ideals meant diddley-squat.
Now with the situation somewhat cooled down(human numbers on the rise, as opposed to the Dark Ages' dwindling headcounts), the CS leadership has the luxury of reading Hitler and manipulating the people so the same level of paranoia, xenophobia, and overall fear and ignorance keep them in power.
That same ruthlessness makes them strong enough to be a counter to the Xits, vampires, and Infernals, but the same crisis situations that make the CS arguably indispensable to the security of North America, and could make them heroes to all, also serve to feed and increase the same paranoia, xenophobia, and overall fear that further hardens the average CS citizen/hanger-on to dealing with the friendlier aspects of the outside world.

Could the CS have been just as powerful if they'd been long-time d-bee tolerators and mage-friends? Or would they have become soft and vulnerable and supernaturally corruptible in their tolerance? Tolkeen apparently had it all, but had to resort to summoning monsters in the end just to break even(and then one lousy turn of bad luck and POOF!). In their avarice for territory and control, the CS built the sort of sort of war machine that Lazlo couldn't, and that war machine can be deployed accordingly against the new threats that have cropped up.

Wonder if Prosek is aware of another irony from his studies of Hitler's war machine; the tolerant democracies and constitutional aristocracies of Europe got eaten up by the Nazis, and it took the Stalinist USSR, who were just as mean and nasty when it came to throwing men and material at problems, to hold the Germans' attention long enough for larger democracies, granted time and distance, to build up their resources and numbers, to finally drive home the killing blows to the Nazi warmachine. Since there aren't any democracies comparable to the United States in terms of overall population,resources, and military force left on North America, and the (again, irony) democratic New German Republic needs the CS as an ally in dealing with their own monster problems, and is lukewarm on the issue of tolerance, Prosek can't be too worried. Though I imagine he's smart enough to see the possibility that one day the CS and the NGR might have a 'cold war situation' similar to the USSR and USA if they were to get rid of the other threats and start dividing up global spoils.

[Sureshot]

Per Aftermath, the CS had 405,000 troops killed, and another 1,400,000 wounded during the SoT (not counting Dog Boys & mercs). For comparison, that's the same number of dead and twice as many wounded as the US lost in WWII. Not to mention that the CS "lost" all of Free Quebec in the process.

So I wouldn't characterize the SoT as an easy victory for the CS. Yes, they won--but it certainly wasn't a cakewalk.
Personally, I'd put the CS into a "licking their wounds" mode for a much longer period following the SoT.

(And as an aside, I was always surprised at the number of wounded survivors, given the nature of MDC combat.)

Yet even with such losses they still can pull a million or so troops to get involved in Heroes for Humanity. To the OP no, never not in my great great grandchildren lifetimes. Due to their popularity the Cs can and will defeat almost any foe without exception. Except for opponents like the Splugorth or similar.

[Killer Cyborg]

Per Aftermath, the CS had 405,000 troops killed, and another 1,400,000 wounded during the SoT (not counting Dog Boys & mercs). For comparison, that's the same number of dead and twice as many wounded as the US lost in WWII. Not to mention that the CS "lost" all of Free Quebec in the process.

So I wouldn't characterize the SoT as an easy victory for the CS. Yes, they won--but it certainly wasn't a cakewalk.
Personally, I'd put the CS into a "licking their wounds" mode for a much longer period following the SoT.

(And as an aside, I was always surprised at the number of wounded survivors, given the nature of MDC combat.)

Yet even with such losses they still can pull a million or so troops to get involved in Heroes for Humanity.

The CS retired 3.2 million old-style SAMAS when the new styles came out.
Which means that they have ~3.2 million SAMAS Pilots.
Common sense would say that they have more Grunts than SAMAS pilots (though some of those suits would have been for Grunts).

Long story short: the CS had millions of soldiers before they did the mass recruitment from the Burbs.

Due to their popularity the Cs can and will defeat almost any foe without exception. Except for opponents like the Splugorth or similar.

Sure. Due to their popularity.
Not due to... you know.... math.

[Nightmask]

Per Aftermath, the CS had 405,000 troops killed, and another 1,400,000 wounded during the SoT (not counting Dog Boys & mercs). For comparison, that's the same number of dead and twice as many wounded as the US lost in WWII. Not to mention that the CS "lost" all of Free Quebec in the process.

So I wouldn't characterize the SoT as an easy victory for the CS. Yes, they won--but it certainly wasn't a cakewalk.
Personally, I'd put the CS into a "licking their wounds" mode for a much longer period following the SoT.

(And as an aside, I was always surprised at the number of wounded survivors, given the nature of MDC combat.)

Yet even with such losses they still can pull a million or so troops to get involved in Heroes for Humanity. To the OP no, never not in my great great grandchildren lifetimes. Due to their popularity the Cs can and will defeat almost any foe without exception. Except for opponents like the Splugorth or similar.

And of course they'll never get involved in such a battle.

[Killer Cyborg]

Per Aftermath, the CS had 405,000 troops killed, and another 1,400,000 wounded during the SoT (not counting Dog Boys & mercs). For comparison, that's the same number of dead and twice as many wounded as the US lost in WWII. Not to mention that the CS "lost" all of Free Quebec in the process.

So I wouldn't characterize the SoT as an easy victory for the CS. Yes, they won--but it certainly wasn't a cakewalk.
Personally, I'd put the CS into a "licking their wounds" mode for a much longer period following the SoT.

(And as an aside, I was always surprised at the number of wounded survivors, given the nature of MDC combat.)

Yet even with such losses they still can pull a million or so troops to get involved in Heroes for Humanity. To the OP no, never not in my great great grandchildren lifetimes. Due to their popularity the Cs can and will defeat almost any foe without exception. Except for opponents like the Splugorth or similar.

And of course they'll never get involved in such a battle.

Of course they will, eventually.
Kevin created the CS as an expanding empire surrounded by enemies. He obviously plans for there to be eventual conflict.

At this rate, the Siege on Atlantis series will be out in a mere 3d6x10 years.

[Eclipse]

Per Aftermath, the CS had 405,000 troops killed, and another 1,400,000 wounded during the SoT (not counting Dog Boys & mercs). For comparison, that's the same number of dead and twice as many wounded as the US lost in WWII. Not to mention that the CS "lost" all of Free Quebec in the process.

So I wouldn't characterize the SoT as an easy victory for the CS. Yes, they won--but it certainly wasn't a cakewalk.
Personally, I'd put the CS into a "licking their wounds" mode for a much longer period following the SoT.

(And as an aside, I was always surprised at the number of wounded survivors, given the nature of MDC combat.)

SDC arms and legs can be blown off of course.

[grandmaster z0b]

As has already been said the CS has lost at least once to FQ. It wasn't a devastating loss but it was still pretty bad. Trying to attack FQ at the same time as Tolkeen was a strategic mistake and had they not withdrawn and made peace, could have led to the CS losing the war. Much in the same way that Germany attacking Russia was one of the main reasons they lost WW2.

That being said, yeah I think it would be interesting to see the CS lose a major conflict.

Probably in the Chinese Curse sense of "interesting," though.
Most of their major enemies are worse than they are.
Seeing the CS lose to the xiticix or vampires wouldn't exactly be a sight to make me cheer.

I meant interesting as in from a story point of view. The CS is an interesting political entity but regardless of how one feels about the result of CWC and the SoT, no country is invulnerable. If they had lost a city in Megaverse in flames I would have found that both realistic and interesting.

I'm not thinking from the point of view of humanity's survival.

[Sureshot]

The CS retired 3.2 million old-style SAMAS when the new styles came out.
Which means that they have ~3.2 million SAMAS Pilots.
Common sense would say that they have more Grunts than SAMAS pilots (though some of those suits would have been for Grunts).

Long story short: the CS had millions of soldiers before they did the mass recruitment from the Burbs.

You do realize that's very likely a number that was pulled out of thin air right. Who makes that many suits of armor then suddenly retire and mothball them simply because newer ones are avaialble. At the very least they recycle the old ones for raw materials or spare parts. I have a book on tanks from across the world. Other friendly countries use tanks that the USA no longer uses. As it's simpler, cheaper, and in some cases easier to maintain the older tank units. Then build or even buy newer models. The USA can continula upgrade their military because they have the money and resources to do so. I doubt they have a huge reserve of Sherman tanks rusting away somewhere. I get your point. It still makes no sense to me to keep so many older model units in storage. Might as well melt them down to make the newer models

Sure. Due to their popularity.
Not due to... you know.... math.

I would agree with you on the math. If they had actually done research instead of pulling figures out of thin air. And of course no rpg company has ever shown favorable treatment to characters or organizations in their books because they were popular. That never ever happens.

[Sureshot]

And of course they'll never get involved in such a battle.

The CS really should not even go near Atlantis or antagonize the Splugorth in anyway. Despite what the CS fans say. The Atlantean forces have numbers on their side. As well as a mixed force that uses magic, psionics and tech all at once. Not many armies do that in Rifts Earth. They can try to go after Atlantis yet imo they would be wiped out and very easily I might add imo. Other like minded factions may join with the CS if Atlantis attacks. If the Cs is the attacker good luck most organizations on Rifts Earth even the good guy types know better then to commit suicide. That is if they can even band together as presented in the books most good or neutral organizations are independant to a very stubborn and unrealistic degree. Not trusting anyone who thinks like them. When the evil organizations everyone gets along.

At this rate, the Siege on Atlantis series will be out in a mere 3d6x10 years.

Your being very overly optimistic with that number I think.

[Killer Cyborg]

The CS retired 3.2 million old-style SAMAS when the new styles came out.
Which means that they have ~3.2 million SAMAS Pilots.
Common sense would say that they have more Grunts than SAMAS pilots (though some of those suits would have been for Grunts).

Long story short: the CS had millions of soldiers before they did the mass recruitment from the Burbs.

You do realize that's very likely a number that was pulled out of thin air right.

No, I don't realize that.

Who makes that many suits of armor then suddenly retire and mothball them simply because newer ones are avaialble.

It's pretty standard to mothball outdated military equipment when the new equipment is issued.

At the very least they recycle the old ones for raw materials or spare parts. I have a book on tanks from across the world. Other friendly countries use tanks that the USA no longer uses. As it's simpler, cheaper, and in some cases easier to maintain the older tank units. Then build or even buy newer models. The USA can continula upgrade their military because they have the money and resources to do so. I doubt they have a huge reserve of Sherman tanks rusting away somewhere. I get your point. It still makes no sense to me to keep so many older model units in storage. Might as well melt them down to make the newer models

I'm not sure how well ceramics melt, and the CS doesn't seem to have a shortage of whatever materials MDC armor is made out of, so I don't know that they need to recycle.
Also, in case of emergency, storing the SAMAS means that they could just issue it to Grunts if the need to, like if there's ever a serious attack on Chi-Town or another CS city, and things get really serious.
I like the idea of passing the suits on to allies, and perhaps the CS is planning on doing that, they just haven't found the right allies yet. I don't know that Triax would want them.

Sure. Due to their popularity.
Not due to... you know.... math.

I would agree with you on the math. If they had actually done research instead of pulling figures out of thin air.

I see no reason to assume that the numbers come out of thin air, although I agree that they probably didn't put a heck of a lot of thought into the numbers, just picked something that sounded good based on the size and power of the Coalition.
But that's how Palladium comes up with most of their stuff. You can't really research a post-apocalyptic, futuristic empire.

And of course no rpg company has ever shown favorable treatment to characters or organizations in their books because they were popular. That never ever happens.

Has it?
Nothing really comes to mind.

In any case, when it comes to the Coalition, we were told in the RMB that they were the most powerful nation in the known world, and their territory is almost 1/3 of the US, and they have towering megalopolises.
Do you think that Palladium was showing favoritism to the CS due to fan popularity before there were any fans?
Because I don't see how that's possible.
The CS has always been THE power in North America, since before Rifts was even published.

[Killer Cyborg]

For that matter, I don't know where you come up with this "The CS is really, really popular" idea.
I'm unaware of any massive polls, and in the forums the CS fans seem to be the minority.

[Nightmask]

The CS retired 3.2 million old-style SAMAS when the new styles came out.
Which means that they have ~3.2 million SAMAS Pilots.
Common sense would say that they have more Grunts than SAMAS pilots (though some of those suits would have been for Grunts).

Long story short: the CS had millions of soldiers before they did the mass recruitment from the Burbs.

Having 3 million suits of power armor doesn't mean you have 3 million pilots for them nor would it mean you have 3 million specialists in piloting that particular suit of power armor or that they must have had millions of soldiers at the time.

Anyone with Pilot: Robots and Power Armor can use a SAMAS and anyone with Robot Combat: Basic or Elite-SAMAS can get combat bonuses in the use of one. The CS has more than just the SAMAS Pilot OCC that can take those skills and pilot SAMAS. All that number means (and as has been pointed out was likely snatched out of thin air) is that they had more than enough SAMAS for everyone who had the skills to use them.

[Incriptus]

What would be losing one?

Do they need to lose an engagement? multiple engagements?
Do they need to lose a city? A state? Chi-Town?