Techno-can: Language skill or Literacy skill?

[Wheeljack]

I'm making a Rogue Scientist. They get Literacy with two languages and three Language skills.

Techno-Can is under Language: Other, saying "the character can understand and speak a language other than his own." It then goes on to say Techno-Can is "NOT a spoken language."

Does that mean you can't take Techno-Can as a Language: Other skill at all, and should use a Literacy skill for it? Where is it used, anyway? Presumably not in the Coalition States, since literacy is discouraged. None of the Coalition military OCCs seem to have it, even the Technical Officers.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Techno can is a jargon filled dialect of a base language is my understanding.

[Killer Cyborg]

It's a language, like the book says.

[SolCannibal]

Techno can is a jargon filled dialect of a base language is my understanding.

Or it could be some sort of "operator lingua franca" evolved from engineering/programming jargon and codes from the late golden age, preserved and expanded due to its relevance in keeping things (almost) simple and standard for technicians across several communities.

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't know about any of you but when I read I hear the words in my head so If I read it I can speak it alternetly if I can speak a language I can sound out words wile spelling to some degree even if its another language so I say its both but that's just one opinion

Yeah, I also hear words in your head when I read.

[Prysus]

I'm making a Rogue Scientist. They get Literacy with two languages and three Language skills.

Techno-Can is under Language: Other, saying "the character can understand and speak a language other than his own." It then goes on to say Techno-Can is "NOT a spoken language."

Does that mean you can't take Techno-Can as a Language: Other skill at all, and should use a Literacy skill for it? Where is it used, anyway? Presumably not in the Coalition States, since literacy is discouraged. None of the Coalition military OCCs seem to have it, even the Technical Officers.

Greetings and Salutations. Strictly by the book, you'd have to select it as a Language skill.

My personal opinion on the other hand ... it is not a language, and more akin to L33T (just meant as a sci-fi version of it). Literacy would be a more appropriate skill. The book states it is NOT a spoken language (while the Language skill specifies the ability to "speak" it), and mentions "technical journals" (closest we have to writing a journal would be Creative Writing, which requires Literacy) and "a universal computer language" (both Computer Operation and Computer Programming require literacy, but neither require spoken language). Though listed under the Language skill (the book does consider it a language in general) along with some of the other languages for the setting (making it a practical place to find it), it does not actually fall under the same skill (the "Language" skill does not include written forms, and this is a written form only).

That's my opinion at least. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

[ShadowLogan]

Techno can is a jargon filled dialect of a base language is my understanding.

This is similar to my thinking. Techno-can isn't a spoken language on its own, but it is one in its literacy form of the skill. As a spoken word, it would have to exist as a subset/dialect of an existing language, but when written down it is more universal (like music notes, or formulas, etc).

However, I think the Language skill list is intended to cover both spoken (language: ??? skills) and written (literacy: ??? skills) languages, even if they are confined to one side since both are technically dealing with "language" aspect. In this day and age there are extinct languages that are only preserved in written form. Also RMB is a bit more flexible in its description of the skill, and leaves open the possibility it can be spoken ('not an everyday spoken language') in some circles. This likely means that communication would be very limited if spoken straight since it is narrowly focused and such.

[eliakon]

Just a thought here.....
Braille is a 'language'...but its not spoken only written....

[Tor]

Yup, and then we have sign-language.

Being a non-spoken language, I figure that if Techno-Can has a non-literacy portion to it, it must be signed.

OR... perhaps it does have an audio portion, but it involves communication via computer-generated sound-effects, rather than spoken sounds.

[Razzinold]

In my games I treated it in two ways. The first it's kind of like latin, which people read, but it's considered a "dead language" so most people don't speak it.

The second is more like a reference guide to understanding/defining words, kind of like a medical dictionary.

Sure you can look at notes the doctor writes and read the word, but you wouldn't be able to understand the word. This could be anything from medication names to official names of diseases/treatments.

e.g.
Agonal - Term to signify a major, negative change in a patient’s condition
BP - Medical shorthand for blood pressure
FX - Medical jargon meaning bone fracture
JT - A joint
NPO - A patient should not take anything by mouth
IM - Intramuscular
K - The elemental symbol for potassium

Here is the definition from this website: http://examples.yourdictionary.com/examples-of-jargon.html

Jargon is like a type of shorthand between members of a particular group of people, often words that are meaningless outside of a certain context. Following are some examples of jargon that will help illustrate the concept.

The automotive industry is filled with it as well, pretty much any trade or specific group i.e. police, military, fire fighters, with examples like ABS and ESC.
So that is how I treat it. If you have the skill and you see ABS or Agonal you know what they mean but you wouldn't necessarily use those words in a sentence, you would use laymen terms, unless you were speaking to a fellow colleague.

[Daniel Stoker]

Just a thought here.....
Braille is a 'language'...but its not spoken only written....

Isn't it an alphabet with the language in whatever well... language you're writing in?


Daniel Stoker

[Nightmask]

Well there IS one language that can't be spoken, since it's sign language.

[SpiritInterface]

For the most part Techno-can is the understanding, knowledge, and the use of formulas, notations, equations, and other specialized script from chemistry, engineering, mathematics, and other scientific studies.

Things like:
I=V/R,
E total=KE system+PE system+ U system
CH3-CH2-CH2-OH
E = mc2
Fgrav = m • g, a = Fnet/m

d = vo • t + 0.5 • a • t2
vf = vo + a • t
vf2 = vo 2 + 2 • a • d
d = (vo + vf)/ 2 • t

So how can things like this be used in a spoken language?

[Tor]

Well there IS one language that can't be spoken, since it's sign language.

Unless of course the spoken words of a magic spell were used to create the illusion of giant hands signing symbols...

[Zer0 Kay]

For the most part Techno-can is the understanding, knowledge, and the use of formulas, notations, equations, and other specialized script from chemistry, engineering, mathematics, and other scientific studies.

Things like:
I=V/R,
E total=KE system+PE system+ U system
CH3-CH2-CH2-OH
E = mc2
Fgrav = m • g, a = Fnet/m

d = vo • t + 0.5 • a • t2
vf = vo + a • t
vf2 = vo 2 + 2 • a • d
d = (vo + vf)/ 2 • t

So how can things like this be used in a spoken language?

Sure because if you pick the technical skill you don't need to pick the various science and math skills "Oh so I'm a city rat and your a nuclear physicist... your doing that wrong because..."
seriously?

How? "When I was in the United States Air Force I frequently had to use Ohm's law to find the resistance of a circuit I was trouble shooting of course it is a little different than what is listed here because it is written to solve for current (I). So instead of current equals voltage divided by resistance I'd have to do resistance equals voltage divided by current."

Short version, "I used Ohm's law and solved for resistance."

[Zer0 Kay]

Well there IS one language that can't be spoken, since it's sign language.

Unless of course the spoken words of a magic spell were used to create the illusion of giant hands signing symbols...

That's like saying that written English can't be spoken. The signs are a simple substitution for the language the sign is for ASL is English. Can we speak Japanese (kanji)? Was the ancient Egyptian a spoken language or can we not speak wither because they are representative symbols?

[Zer0 Kay]

For the most part Techno-can is the understanding, knowledge, and the use of formulas, notations, equations, and other specialized script from chemistry, engineering, mathematics, and other scientific studies.

Things like:
I=V/R,
E total=KE system+PE system+ U system
CH3-CH2-CH2-OH
E = mc2
Fgrav = m • g, a = Fnet/m

d = vo • t + 0.5 • a • t2
vf = vo + a • t
vf2 = vo 2 + 2 • a • d
d = (vo + vf)/ 2 • t


Yup didn't understant any of that

So how can things like this be used in a spoken language?

Same way we say them now...
Ohm's law, Energy of a system, alcohol, Einstein's equation, gravity from mass of an object and acceleration using resistance and mass, frictional torque, and other physics equations that either have names or a specific purpose and is referred to by that in any spoken language.

[SpiritInterface]

For the most part Techno-can is the understanding, knowledge, and the use of formulas, notations, equations, and other specialized script from chemistry, engineering, mathematics, and other scientific studies.

Things like:
I=V/R,
E total=KE system+PE system+ U system
CH3-CH2-CH2-OH
E = mc2
Fgrav = m • g, a = Fnet/m

d = vo • t + 0.5 • a • t2
vf = vo + a • t
vf2 = vo 2 + 2 • a • d
d = (vo + vf)/ 2 • t


Yup didn't understant any of that

So how can things like this be used in a spoken language?

Same way we say them now...
Ohm's law, Energy of a system, alcohol, Einstein's equation, gravity from mass of an object and acceleration using resistance and mass, frictional torque, and other physics equations that either have names or a specific purpose and is referred to by that in any spoken language.

Now have a conversation using only those names and terms. You are using the English names for those equations, not the equations themselves.

[eliakon]

Well there IS one language that can't be spoken, since it's sign language.

Unless of course the spoken words of a magic spell were used to create the illusion of giant hands signing symbols...

That's like saying that written English can't be spoken. The signs are a simple substitution for the language the sign is for ASL is English. Can we speak Japanese (kanji)? Was the ancient Egyptian a spoken language or can we not speak wither because they are representative symbols?

Actually Nightmask is correct. A sign language, by definition, can not be spoken. You can speak Japanese, but you don't speak Kanji. Egyptian, again, is just a language. But if the language is defined as "this is not spoken" then its.....not spoken. It can be spoken about, it can be represented in other media, but the language itself, in its own form is not actually spoken.

[dreicunan]

Braille is not a language. Braille is an alphabet cipher. It is used to represent language. There is no such thing as a written language, actually, just written representations of a language (note that this does not exclude sign language as a language by defining it this way, though whether sign language rises to the level of a language or not depends on the version used). I've always hated how technocan was explained in the books; it sounds like it's really a pidgin, not a full-blown language, but then the language skill system for Rifts isn't very good at representing real language issues anyways (few games have a good system for it)

[eliakon]

Braille is not a language. Braille is an alphabet cipher. It is used to represent language. There is no such thing as a written language, actually, just written representations of a language (note that this does not exclude sign language as a language by defining it this way, though whether sign language rises to the level of a language or not depends on the version used). I've always hated how technocan was explained in the books; it sounds like it's really a pidgin, not a full-blown language, but then the language skill system for Rifts isn't very good at representing real language issues anyways (few games have a good system for it)

I will admit that Braille probably wasn't the best analogue to use. But it did help get the idea across of 'something that can be written that can't really be spoken.' The comparisons to leet and various lingos and cants would also be good I think. And I agree I don't think it IS a 'full blown language' I think its more or less an artificial 'tech speak' that is used to universally convey technical information. THAT said, in my games I boosted it to a spoken language and have it used universally by technicians. Its now a universal pidgin used for technology stuff. Its perfect if you want to explain to someone how to fix an engine, or whats wrong with their computer software....but it makes lousy poetry and has no real 'internal' words for stuff that isn't related to building or maintaining technology.

[Zer0 Kay]

Well there IS one language that can't be spoken, since it's sign language.

Unless of course the spoken words of a magic spell were used to create the illusion of giant hands signing symbols...

That's like saying that written English can't be spoken. The signs are a simple substitution for the language the sign is for ASL is English. Can we speak Japanese (kanji)? Was the ancient Egyptian a spoken language or can we not speak wither because they are representative symbols?

Actually Nightmask is correct. A sign language, by definition, can not be spoken. You can speak Japanese, but you don't speak Kanji. Egyptian, again, is just a language. But if the language is defined as "this is not spoken" then its.....not spoken. It can be spoken about, it can be represented in other media, but the language itself, in its own form is not actually spoken.

in that case no written language is spoken no one says B-U-S its bugs which isn't the name of any of the letters. So in English we only speak the long bowels if you want to look at it that way.
They're all just symbols with names that frequently don't even have a matching associated sound.
many people use ASL and speak on English when doing it.

Edit: stupid spellchecker buhs not bugs.

[Zer0 Kay]

Braille is not a language. Braille is an alphabet cipher. It is used to represent language. There is no such thing as a written language, actually, just written representations of a language (note that this does not exclude sign language as a language by defining it this way, though whether sign language rises to the level of a language or not depends on the version used). I've always hated how technocan was explained in the books; it sounds like it's really a pidgin, not a full-blown language, but then the language skill system for Rifts isn't very good at representing real language issues anyways (few games have a good system for it)

Ding ding ding. Thank you!

[Zer0 Kay]

For the most part Techno-can is the understanding, knowledge, and the use of formulas, notations, equations, and other specialized script from chemistry, engineering, mathematics, and other scientific studies.

Things like:
I=V/R,
E total=KE system+PE system+ U system
CH3-CH2-CH2-OH
E = mc2
Fgrav = m • g, a = Fnet/m

d = vo • t + 0.5 • a • t2
vf = vo + a • t
vf2 = vo 2 + 2 • a • d
d = (vo + vf)/ 2 • t


Yup didn't understant any of that

So how can things like this be used in a spoken language?

Same way we say them now...
Ohm's law, Energy of a system, alcohol, Einstein's equation, gravity from mass of an object and acceleration using resistance and mass, frictional torque, and other physics equations that either have names or a specific purpose and is referred to by that in any spoken language.

Now have a conversation using only those names and terms. You are using the English names for those equations, not the equations themselves.

Already gave an example. Probably of what technical is too. "I can use Ohm's law to determine how much resistance your body is just by knowing how much energy a lightning bolt is and the measured current going through your body... when he casts call lightning on you. Hold still please."

Technical if spoken is probably primarily English but with so many technical words that no one understands something as simple as "the craps gonna hit the fan," turning into "the excriment is going to impact the rotating oscillator."

[Nightmask]

Well there IS one language that can't be spoken, since it's sign language.

Unless of course the spoken words of a magic spell were used to create the illusion of giant hands signing symbols...

That's like saying that written English can't be spoken. The signs are a simple substitution for the language the sign is for ASL is English. Can we speak Japanese (kanji)? Was the ancient Egyptian a spoken language or can we not speak wither because they are representative symbols?

Actually Nightmask is correct. A sign language, by definition, can not be spoken. You can speak Japanese, but you don't speak Kanji. Egyptian, again, is just a language. But if the language is defined as "this is not spoken" then its.....not spoken. It can be spoken about, it can be represented in other media, but the language itself, in its own form is not actually spoken.

in that case no written language is spoken no one says B-U-S its bugs which isn't the name of any of the letters. So in English we only speak the long bowels if you want to look at it that way.
They're all just symbols with names that frequently don't even have a matching associated sound.
many people use ASL and speak on English when doing it.

Too much effort to overly complicate and confuse the issue, most written languages also have an associated auditory means of conveying it (i.e. speaking) but some languages can't be spoken because they don't actually have such an association. Sign language is one of those languages, it's explicitly created to communicate sans speech because it's primarily meant for communication with people who can't speak.

[Zer0 Kay]

Unless of course the spoken words of a magic spell were used to create the illusion of giant hands signing symbols...

That's like saying that written English can't be spoken. The signs are a simple substitution for the language the sign is for ASL is English. Can we speak Japanese (kanji)? Was the ancient Egyptian a spoken language or can we not speak wither because they are representative symbols?

Actually Nightmask is correct. A sign language, by definition, can not be spoken. You can speak Japanese, but you don't speak Kanji. Egyptian, again, is just a language. But if the language is defined as "this is not spoken" then its.....not spoken. It can be spoken about, it can be represented in other media, but the language itself, in its own form is not actually spoken.

in that case no written language is spoken no one says B-U-S its bugs which isn't the name of any of the letters. So in English we only speak the long bowels if you want to look at it that way.
They're all just symbols with names that frequently don't even have a matching associated sound.
many people use ASL and speak on English when doing it.

Too much effort to overly complicate and confuse the issue, most written languages also have an associated auditory means of conveying it (i.e. speaking) but some languages can't be spoken because they don't actually have such an association. Sign language is one of those languages, it's explicitly created to communicate sans speech because it's primarily meant for communication with people who can't speak.

okay so they must be communicating in deaf concepts too and can't possibly know the alphabet... Oh wait, a-z is in the sign language. An interpreter for a deaf person doesn't EVER say well I can't translate that it's a complex concept. And it isn't "sign language" referring and saying it can't be spoken is like saying a given person is speaking language and it can't be written. ASL is most easily spoken in english because it is AMERICAN sign language. Though it was created for communication without speach many people still talk while doing it. I guess it would be more appropriate to say that any sign language van be spoken by someone who knows how to read it just as easily as the written word can be spoken. They are the same a symbol one written the other through gesture used to convey concepts either through interpretation of symbols into sounds into concepts or gestures into concepts OR gestures into individual letters into concepts. Boat either spelled on a piece of paper or signed is a boat and if you ask a person that knows als to spell it they will spell it boat.

Lets do it this way English IS associated with ASL when a deaf person learns ASL it isn't taught to them in Spanish Japanese or Swahili the books have word in English and use the Armaeican/English alphabet... no Canadian zed . ALS is a direct replacement for the English language. A hearing person learns it by association with the language it can and is spoken. A deaf person signing A-p-p-l-e to a person who can read ALS reads apple, they don't read the gestures and have to thing uh closed fist with thumb up is blahdeblah which is an a in English, cuz its an A.

[Nightmask]

Too much effort to overly complicate and confuse the issue, most written languages also have an associated auditory means of conveying it (i.e. speaking) but some languages can't be spoken because they don't actually have such an association. Sign language is one of those languages, it's explicitly created to communicate sans speech because it's primarily meant for communication with people who can't speak.

okay so they must be communicating in deaf concepts too and can't possibly know the alphabet... Oh wait, a-z is in the sign language. An interpreter for a deaf person doesn't EVER say well I can't translate that it's a complex concept. And it isn't "sign language" referring and saying it can't be spoken is like saying a given person is speaking language and it can't be written. ASL is most easily spoken in english because it is AMERICAN sign language. Though it was created for communication without speach many people still talk while doing it. I guess it would be more appropriate to say that any sign language van be spoken by someone who knows how to read it just as easily as the written word can be spoken. They are the same a symbol one written the other through gesture used to convey concepts either through interpretation of symbols into sounds into concepts or gestures into concepts OR gestures into individual letters into concepts. Boat either spelled on a piece of paper or signed is a boat and if you ask a person that knows als to spell it they will spell it boat.

Lets do it this way English IS associated with ASL when a deaf person learns ASL it isn't taught to them in Spanish Japanese or Swahili the books have word in English and use the Armaeican/English alphabet... no Canadian zed . ALS is a direct replacement for the English language. A hearing person learns it by association with the language it can and is spoken. A deaf person signing A-p-p-l-e to a person who can read ALS reads apple, they don't read the gestures and have to thing uh closed fist with thumb up is blahdeblah which is an a in English, cuz its an A.

Uh no, sign language isn't a replacement for English it's a substitute for the inability to speak and they certainly have sign language dictionaries translating what a particular sign means into a variety of other languages including English. While it can be TRANSLATED into other languages sign language itself cannot be spoken and to claim otherwise is simply disregarding the very nature of purpose of sign language, namely to make up for the inability to speak by providing a means to communicate that doesn't require speech to convey.

[Zer0 Kay]

Too much effort to overly complicate and confuse the issue, most written languages also have an associated auditory means of conveying it (i.e. speaking) but some languages can't be spoken because they don't actually have such an association. Sign language is one of those languages, it's explicitly created to communicate sans speech because it's primarily meant for communication with people who can't speak.

okay so they must be communicating in deaf concepts too and can't possibly know the alphabet... Oh wait, a-z is in the sign language. An interpreter for a deaf person doesn't EVER say well I can't translate that it's a complex concept. And it isn't "sign language" referring and saying it can't be spoken is like saying a given person is speaking language and it can't be written. ASL is most easily spoken in english because it is AMERICAN sign language. Though it was created for communication without speach many people still talk while doing it. I guess it would be more appropriate to say that any sign language van be spoken by someone who knows how to read it just as easily as the written word can be spoken. They are the same a symbol one written the other through gesture used to convey concepts either through interpretation of symbols into sounds into concepts or gestures into concepts OR gestures into individual letters into concepts. Boat either spelled on a piece of paper or signed is a boat and if you ask a person that knows als to spell it they will spell it boat.

Lets do it this way English IS associated with ASL when a deaf person learns ASL it isn't taught to them in Spanish Japanese or Swahili the books have word in English and use the Armaeican/English alphabet... no Canadian zed . ALS is a direct replacement for the English language. A hearing person learns it by association with the language it can and is spoken. A deaf person signing A-p-p-l-e to a person who can read ALS reads apple, they don't read the gestures and have to thing uh closed fist with thumb up is blahdeblah which is an a in English, cuz its an A.

Uh no, sign language isn't a replacement for English it's a substitute for the inability to speak and they certainly have sign language dictionaries translating what a particular sign means into a variety of other languages including English. While it can be TRANSLATED into other languages sign language itself cannot be spoken and to claim otherwise is simply disregarding the very nature of purpose of sign language, namely to make up for the inability to speak by providing a means to communicate that doesn't require speech to convey.

Dictionary only works for concept to language, 'a' in sign is only ever 'a' in the English language unless the sign language being use isn't ASL. Hmm a means off communication that doesn't require apech to convey... how unique. So can you be a little more specific in that statement? I mean I know what your getting at but sign is unique but your description ranks ot with the written word.

[Zer0 Kay]

Too much effort to overly complicate and confuse the issue, most written languages also have an associated auditory means of conveying it (i.e. speaking) but some languages can't be spoken because they don't actually have such an association. Sign language is one of those languages, it's explicitly created to communicate sans speech because it's primarily meant for communication with people who can't speak.

okay so they must be communicating in deaf concepts too and can't possibly know the alphabet... Oh wait, a-z is in the sign language. An interpreter for a deaf person doesn't EVER say well I can't translate that it's a complex concept. And it isn't "sign language" referring and saying it can't be spoken is like saying a given person is speaking language and it can't be written. ASL is most easily spoken in english because it is AMERICAN sign language. Though it was created for communication without speach many people still talk while doing it. I guess it would be more appropriate to say that any sign language van be spoken by someone who knows how to read it just as easily as the written word can be spoken. They are the same a symbol one written the other through gesture used to convey concepts either through interpretation of symbols into sounds into concepts or gestures into concepts OR gestures into individual letters into concepts. Boat either spelled on a piece of paper or signed is a boat and if you ask a person that knows als to spell it they will spell it boat.

Lets do it this way English IS associated with ASL when a deaf person learns ASL it isn't taught to them in Spanish Japanese or Swahili the books have word in English and use the Armaeican/English alphabet... no Canadian zed . ALS is a direct replacement for the English language. A hearing person learns it by association with the language it can and is spoken. A deaf person signing A-p-p-l-e to a person who can read ALS reads apple, they don't read the gestures and have to thing uh closed fist with thumb up is blahdeblah which is an a in English, cuz its an A.

Uh no, sign language isn't a replacement for English it's a substitute for the inability to speak and they certainly have sign language dictionaries translating what a particular sign means into a variety of other languages including English. While it can be TRANSLATED into other languages sign language itself cannot be spoken and to claim otherwise is simply disregarding the very nature of purpose of sign language, namely to make up for the inability to speak by providing a means to communicate that doesn't require speech to convey.

ASL os glossed in English.

[SpiritInterface]

For the most part Techno-can is the understanding, knowledge, and the use of formulas, notations, equations, and other specialized script from chemistry, engineering, mathematics, and other scientific studies.

Things like:
I=V/R,
E total=KE system+PE system+ U system
CH3-CH2-CH2-OH
E = mc2
Fgrav = m • g, a = Fnet/m

d = vo • t + 0.5 • a • t2
vf = vo + a • t
vf2 = vo 2 + 2 • a • d
d = (vo + vf)/ 2 • t


Yup didn't understant any of that

So how can things like this be used in a spoken language?

Same way we say them now...
Ohm's law, Energy of a system, alcohol, Einstein's equation, gravity from mass of an object and acceleration using resistance and mass, frictional torque, and other physics equations that either have names or a specific purpose and is referred to by that in any spoken language.

Now have a conversation using only those names and terms. You are using the English names for those equations, not the equations themselves.

Already gave an example. Probably of what technical is too. "I can use Ohm's law to determine how much resistance your body is just by knowing how much energy a lightning bolt is and the measured current going through your body... when he casts call lightning on you. Hold still please."

Technical if spoken is probably primarily English but with so many technical words that no one understands something as simple as "the craps gonna hit the fan," turning into "the excriment is going to impact the rotating oscillator."

You evidently don't understand that Techno-Can is only made up of the terms and equations not their English names. Your example uses the English name of Ohm's Law and not the equation itself.

[Nightmask]

Too much effort to overly complicate and confuse the issue, most written languages also have an associated auditory means of conveying it (i.e. speaking) but some languages can't be spoken because they don't actually have such an association. Sign language is one of those languages, it's explicitly created to communicate sans speech because it's primarily meant for communication with people who can't speak.

okay so they must be communicating in deaf concepts too and can't possibly know the alphabet... Oh wait, a-z is in the sign language. An interpreter for a deaf person doesn't EVER say well I can't translate that it's a complex concept. And it isn't "sign language" referring and saying it can't be spoken is like saying a given person is speaking language and it can't be written. ASL is most easily spoken in english because it is AMERICAN sign language. Though it was created for communication without speach many people still talk while doing it. I guess it would be more appropriate to say that any sign language van be spoken by someone who knows how to read it just as easily as the written word can be spoken. They are the same a symbol one written the other through gesture used to convey concepts either through interpretation of symbols into sounds into concepts or gestures into concepts OR gestures into individual letters into concepts. Boat either spelled on a piece of paper or signed is a boat and if you ask a person that knows als to spell it they will spell it boat.

Lets do it this way English IS associated with ASL when a deaf person learns ASL it isn't taught to them in Spanish Japanese or Swahili the books have word in English and use the Armaeican/English alphabet... no Canadian zed . ALS is a direct replacement for the English language. A hearing person learns it by association with the language it can and is spoken. A deaf person signing A-p-p-l-e to a person who can read ALS reads apple, they don't read the gestures and have to thing uh closed fist with thumb up is blahdeblah which is an a in English, cuz its an A.

Uh no, sign language isn't a replacement for English it's a substitute for the inability to speak and they certainly have sign language dictionaries translating what a particular sign means into a variety of other languages including English. While it can be TRANSLATED into other languages sign language itself cannot be spoken and to claim otherwise is simply disregarding the very nature of purpose of sign language, namely to make up for the inability to speak by providing a means to communicate that doesn't require speech to convey.

Dictionary only works for concept to language, 'a' in sign is only ever 'a' in the English language unless the sign language being use isn't ASL. Hmm a means off communication that doesn't require apech to convey... how unique. So can you be a little more specific in that statement? I mean I know what your getting at but sign is unique but your description ranks ot with the written word.

*sigh* This is just tedious, you can't speak sign language. It cannot be spoken because it's not a verbal language. Just because it can be translated into a spoken language does not make sign language a spoken language it still cannot be spoken because it has no spoken components. Techno-Can meanwhile given its nature is suitable for both spoken and written expression.

[eliakon]

Too much effort to overly complicate and confuse the issue, most written languages also have an associated auditory means of conveying it (i.e. speaking) but some languages can't be spoken because they don't actually have such an association. Sign language is one of those languages, it's explicitly created to communicate sans speech because it's primarily meant for communication with people who can't speak.

okay so they must be communicating in deaf concepts too and can't possibly know the alphabet... Oh wait, a-z is in the sign language. An interpreter for a deaf person doesn't EVER say well I can't translate that it's a complex concept. And it isn't "sign language" referring and saying it can't be spoken is like saying a given person is speaking language and it can't be written. ASL is most easily spoken in english because it is AMERICAN sign language. Though it was created for communication without speach many people still talk while doing it. I guess it would be more appropriate to say that any sign language van be spoken by someone who knows how to read it just as easily as the written word can be spoken. They are the same a symbol one written the other through gesture used to convey concepts either through interpretation of symbols into sounds into concepts or gestures into concepts OR gestures into individual letters into concepts. Boat either spelled on a piece of paper or signed is a boat and if you ask a person that knows als to spell it they will spell it boat.

Lets do it this way English IS associated with ASL when a deaf person learns ASL it isn't taught to them in Spanish Japanese or Swahili the books have word in English and use the Armaeican/English alphabet... no Canadian zed . ALS is a direct replacement for the English language. A hearing person learns it by association with the language it can and is spoken. A deaf person signing A-p-p-l-e to a person who can read ALS reads apple, they don't read the gestures and have to thing uh closed fist with thumb up is blahdeblah which is an a in English, cuz its an A.

Uh no, sign language isn't a replacement for English it's a substitute for the inability to speak and they certainly have sign language dictionaries translating what a particular sign means into a variety of other languages including English. While it can be TRANSLATED into other languages sign language itself cannot be spoken and to claim otherwise is simply disregarding the very nature of purpose of sign language, namely to make up for the inability to speak by providing a means to communicate that doesn't require speech to convey.

Dictionary only works for concept to language, 'a' in sign is only ever 'a' in the English language unless the sign language being use isn't ASL. Hmm a means off communication that doesn't require apech to convey... how unique. So can you be a little more specific in that statement? I mean I know what your getting at but sign is unique but your description ranks ot with the written word.

*sigh* This is just tedious, you can't speak sign language. It cannot be spoken because it's not a verbal language. Just because it can be translated into a spoken language does not make sign language a spoken language it still cannot be spoken because it has no spoken components. Techno-Can meanwhile given its nature is suitable for both spoken and written expression.

Or more clearly
Sign language is an actual language
Braille is an alphabet used for another language
When you sign, you translate what is being spoken into signs, and back. They are however translated. The symbols have different meanings, and they convey the information (which does use the English/American alphabet, spelling, and rules of grammar for many things) in signs. As the signs are visual, and not verbal it cant be 'spoken' anymore than you can speak a photograph, or speak a statue, or speak a dance routine.

[Zer0 Kay]

You evidently don't understand that Techno-Can is only made up of the terms and equations not their English names. Your example uses the English name of Ohm's Law and not the equation itself.

Source?

[Zer0 Kay]

How's this? ASL is an independent language from English but like many computer programming languages was developed by English speaking peoples or people in English speaking communities so is developed from, in a majority broad sense, English, in that it follows many of the rules and is most easily translated into spoken terms in English language. ASL is closer to English in development than say TSL or USL. If not for any other reason than more of ASL is documented in written English than in any other language.

I'd still argue that English is the "official" spoken language of translation for ASL meaning that it is the most commonly used rather than any mandatory or legal requirement or recognition.

[eliakon]

How's this? ASL is an independent language from English but like many computer programming languages was developed by English speaking peoples or people in English speaking communities so is developed from, in a majority broad sense, English, in that it follows many of the rules and is most easily translated into spoken terms in English language. ASL is closer to English in development than say TSL or USL. If not for any other reason than more of ASL is documented in written English than in any other language.

I'd still argue that English is the "official" spoken language of translation for ASL meaning that it is the most commonly used rather than any mandatory or legal requirement or recognition.

Yeah sure, ASL translates easiest into English. But that doesn't mean that verbal ASL is English anymore than ASL is gestural English. They are separate (just closely related) languages. Sort of like Spanish and Portuguese.

[SpiritInterface]

You evidently don't understand that Techno-Can is only made up of the terms and equations not their English names. Your example uses the English name of Ohm's Law and not the equation itself.

Source?

Rift Game Masters Guide Page 75

Techno-Can (Basic but modified American/English; a universal
computer/techno language used in high-tech computer communications
and systems. Not used as an everyday spoken language but as a specialized
tech-language developed for technical journals and as a universal
computer language).

[Zer0 Kay]

You evidently don't understand that Techno-Can is only made up of the terms and equations not their English names. Your example uses the English name of Ohm's Law and not the equation itself.

Source?

Rift Game Masters Guide Page 75

Techno-Can (Basic but modified American/English; a universal
computer/techno language used in high-tech computer communications
and systems. Not used as an everyday spoken language but as a specialized
tech-language developed for technical journals and as a universal
computer language).

So what your saying is you read that into it. What you wrote doesn't even suggest that.

[Zer0 Kay]

How's this? ASL is an independent language from English but like many computer programming languages was developed by English speaking peoples or people in English speaking communities so is developed from, in a majority broad sense, English, in that it follows many of the rules and is most easily translated into spoken terms in English language. ASL is closer to English in development than say TSL or USL. If not for any other reason than more of ASL is documented in written English than in any other language.

I'd still argue that English is the "official" spoken language of translation for ASL meaning that it is the most commonly used rather than any mandatory or legal requirement or recognition.

Yeah sure, ASL translates easiest into English. But that doesn't mean that verbal ASL is English anymore than ASL is gestural English. They are separate (just closely related) languages. Sort of like Spanish and Portuguese.

Verbal ASL? ASL --> English like English --> ASL... easier.

[eliakon]

How's this? ASL is an independent language from English but like many computer programming languages was developed by English speaking peoples or people in English speaking communities so is developed from, in a majority broad sense, English, in that it follows many of the rules and is most easily translated into spoken terms in English language. ASL is closer to English in development than say TSL or USL. If not for any other reason than more of ASL is documented in written English than in any other language.

I'd still argue that English is the "official" spoken language of translation for ASL meaning that it is the most commonly used rather than any mandatory or legal requirement or recognition.

Yeah sure, ASL translates easiest into English. But that doesn't mean that verbal ASL is English anymore than ASL is gestural English. They are separate (just closely related) languages. Sort of like Spanish and Portuguese.

Verbal ASL? ASL --> English like English --> ASL... easier.

Only if ASL uses all the same rules of grammar. And has ALL the words translate directly into signs. Hrmmm wait, it DOESN'T do that does it. It uses its OWN grammar rules, and it adapts signs to fit words, makes up new hybrid signs to represent other words......its NOT visual English. Visual English is called 'writting'

[Zer0 Kay]

How's this? ASL is an independent language from English but like many computer programming languages was developed by English speaking peoples or people in English speaking communities so is developed from, in a majority broad sense, English, in that it follows many of the rules and is most easily translated into spoken terms in English language. ASL is closer to English in development than say TSL or USL. If not for any other reason than more of ASL is documented in written English than in any other language.

I'd still argue that English is the "official" spoken language of translation for ASL meaning that it is the most commonly used rather than any mandatory or legal requirement or recognition.

Yeah sure, ASL translates easiest into English. But that doesn't mean that verbal ASL is English anymore than ASL is gestural English. They are separate (just closely related) languages. Sort of like Spanish and Portuguese.

Verbal ASL? ASL --> English like English --> ASL... easier.

Only if ASL uses all the same rules of grammar. And has ALL the words translate directly into signs. Hrmmm wait, it DOESN'T do that does it. It uses its OWN grammar rules, and it adapts signs to fit words, makes up new hybrid signs to represent other words......its NOT visual English. Visual English is called 'writting'

Yup it right it is far closer to visual texting+. Cool is c-o-l in sign really fast so it looks like your doing a c in sign and going straight into pointing up. There are visual elements that are absolutely not English lettering but, symboligy of sorts, however, in the phrases that are made of quick lettering what are they abbreviated from? Hmm? COL must be Spanish for neat or is it Greek for excelsior, nope abbreviated version of the American English expression cool. If ASL did everything in sign alphabet it would take so damn long. When they, meaning anyone using ASL, spells a name do they do it in Russian? Japanese? Nope spelled out in Roman letters that comprise the English language.

[eliakon]

How's this? ASL is an independent language from English but like many computer programming languages was developed by English speaking peoples or people in English speaking communities so is developed from, in a majority broad sense, English, in that it follows many of the rules and is most easily translated into spoken terms in English language. ASL is closer to English in development than say TSL or USL. If not for any other reason than more of ASL is documented in written English than in any other language.

I'd still argue that English is the "official" spoken language of translation for ASL meaning that it is the most commonly used rather than any mandatory or legal requirement or recognition.

Yeah sure, ASL translates easiest into English. But that doesn't mean that verbal ASL is English anymore than ASL is gestural English. They are separate (just closely related) languages. Sort of like Spanish and Portuguese.

Verbal ASL? ASL --> English like English --> ASL... easier.

Only if ASL uses all the same rules of grammar. And has ALL the words translate directly into signs. Hrmmm wait, it DOESN'T do that does it. It uses its OWN grammar rules, and it adapts signs to fit words, makes up new hybrid signs to represent other words......its NOT visual English. Visual English is called 'writting'

Yup it right it is far closer to visual texting+. Cool is c-o-l in sign really fast so it looks like your doing a c in sign and going straight into pointing up. There are visual elements that are absolutely not English lettering but, symboligy of sorts, however, in the phrases that are made of quick lettering what are they abbreviated from? Hmm? COL must be Spanish for neat or is it Greek for excelsior, nope abbreviated version of the American English expression cool. If ASL did everything in sign alphabet it would take so damn long. When they, meaning anyone using ASL, spells a name do they do it in Russian? Japanese? Nope spelled out in Roman letters that comprise the English language.

They don't spell it in English either. They spell it in Sign. Sign language uses the same alphabet as English, but so what. Spanish and Portuguese use the same alphabet, that doesn't mean they are the same language. Latin uses the same alphabet as English...so by this logic then Latin is the same language as English, which is also the same language as Middle English, and Old English. Which they are not. A common alphabet does not a language make. Neither does use of SOME of the words and grammar in common. If its only some shared overlap then they are related languages (hello Spanish and Portuguese. And the English's. I see you waving) They have to share ALL the rules. They have to be IDENTICAL to be the same language. That is what 'same' means. Just from your example. Hrmmm I am not familiar with this English word 'Col'. Though there is an abbreviation for Colonel that is "col." But no English word of col. Now in ASL that's a word, and it means the same thing as the English word 'cool' But its not an English word, its an ASL word. THIS is what I mean that its a different language. If it was just 'visual English' then it would have to be cool to be cool.

[SpiritInterface]

You evidently don't understand that Techno-Can is only made up of the terms and equations not their English names. Your example uses the English name of Ohm's Law and not the equation itself.

Source?

Rift Game Masters Guide Page 75

Techno-Can (Basic but modified American/English; a universal
computer/techno language used in high-tech computer communications
and systems. Not used as an everyday spoken language but as a specialized
tech-language developed for technical journals and as a universal
computer language).

So what your saying is you read that into it. What you wrote doesn't even suggest that.

I am so sorry that the Palladium definition doesn't match the definition that I had remembered for Techno-can from other sources. That DOES NOT change the fact that it is NOT a spoken language. My mistake I should have said that the Palladium version of Techno-can is more like Cobal, Fortran, Basic, and C++, so speaking in it would be like talking in binary.

[Zer0 Kay]

You evidently don't understand that Techno-Can is only made up of the terms and equations not their English names. Your example uses the English name of Ohm's Law and not the equation itself.

Source?

Rift Game Masters Guide Page 75

Techno-Can (Basic but modified American/English; a universal
computer/techno language used in high-tech computer communications
and systems. Not used as an everyday spoken language but as a specialized
tech-language developed for technical journals and as a universal
computer language).

So what your saying is you read that into it. What you wrote doesn't even suggest that.

I am so sorry that the Palladium definition doesn't match the definition that I had remembered for Techno-can from other sources. That DOES NOT change the fact that it is NOT a spoken language. My mistake I should have said that the Palladium version of Techno-can is more like Cobal, Fortran, Basic, and C++, so speaking in it would be like talking in binary.

None of those are in Binary. The point of a computer language is to automate functions in such a way that it is easier than using assembly or coding entirely in binary. What other sources? Where's it say it isn't spoken? "not used in EVERYDAY spoken language.". Just like Latin is not an EVERYDAY language but it is still spoken. I can speak Basic and most programmers can speak their code, because it is coded in their language. Granted when I speak it I'm using English words, but... It's coded that way to... if, else, or, and, then, REM line, END line, etc...

[Tor]

Techno-can not being an 'everyday' spoken language does not mean that it is not a spoken language.

[Zer0 Kay]

Techno-can not being an 'everyday' spoken language does not mean that it is not a spoken language.

You make my head hurt and my eyes desire to avoid you. Read my messages, that was my point. Because it says it is not an everyday spoken language it means it is like Latin a language that is still spoken today but not by everyone and not on a daily basis by those who do. It is like some pencil pusher walking into my RADAR maintenance shop and expecting to know all the jargon or the other way around. It is just that Technocan is standardized so now the Mechanics, Engineers, Maintainers, Developers and other technical jobs can talk to each other and the nuances aren't garbled. With Technocan there won't be any accident of someone sticking a battle gonculator into a dumafliche when one guy told him to stick a thingymabob in when it is clearly marked for a fluxcapacitor.

[Tor]

My reply was not directed at you, just a general statement to anyone who might read the statement as meaning there is no spoken component to Techno-can.

[Zer0 Kay]

My reply was not directed at you, just a general statement to anyone who might read the statement as meaning there is no spoken component to Techno-can.

Ah, my misunderstanding then. Just the immediacy of the post after mine, I think.

Just remember in a world without technical one must make sure that the thingey that someone tells you to move is indeed a thingey and not a whatsit... those hurt.

[Tinker Dragoon]

I'm making a Rogue Scientist. They get Literacy with two languages and three Language skills.

Techno-Can is under Language: Other, saying "the character can understand and speak a language other than his own." It then goes on to say Techno-Can is "NOT a spoken language."

Does that mean you can't take Techno-Can as a Language: Other skill at all, and should use a Literacy skill for it? Where is it used, anyway? Presumably not in the Coalition States, since literacy is discouraged. None of the Coalition military OCCs seem to have it, even the Technical Officers.

One notes that the Techno-Hound and Robot Slammer Headhunters in Rifts Canada have both Language and Literacy in Techno-Can as O.C.C. Skills.

I see two possible ways of interpreting this: (1) Techno-Can was originally conceived as a spoken language, but this was changed in a later book (unlikely, as the RGMG and RUE descriptions closely match the original RMB version); or (2) Regardless of whether or not Techno-Can is a spoken language, true comprehension requires skills to be spent on both Language and Literacy.

[Subjugator]

If I told you I had to do some cable rat work to replicate some servers operating in a Beowulf cluster replicate across a WAN for a six nines DR/HA solution, you may or may not know what I'm talking about.

A person who speaks Techno-Can could.

/Sub

[Zer0 Kay]

If I told you I had to do some cable rat work to replicate some servers operating in a Beowulf cluster replicate across a WAN for a six nines DR/HA solution, you may or may not know what I'm talking about.

A person who speaks Techno-Can could.

/Sub

Amen geek brother.

Except technical is also standardized so that while your talking about duplicating networks it wouldn't be confused with duplicating STARS terminals or mistaking frequency setting on a fiber modem with settings for a AN/GPN-22 Hi/Low TWT. Even though IRL should get a clue because of the frequency ranges.

I miss the days I used to have to carry around a Raytheon tweaker in my uniform