Harnessing PPE Surges

[Smooth Operator]

If a large group of people dies near a ley line or a nexus, what happens? Is it another apocalypse or just a nasty ley line storm? Is there a way to store, harness, or dissipate the PPE safely?

[Svartalf]

Cast a spell that consumes the released PPE should do the trick... otherwise hope the closest nexus along the line has a Stone Pyramid...

[SirRobin]

Since the apocalypse was caused by the p.p.e. of lots of sudden croaking and multipliers like planetary alignments and solstice thingies. At worst you would probably just get a storm.

[Smooth Operator]

Would a specially created pocket dimension with the properties of an energy sphere be able to hold it or would that much PPE in one area cause something weird to happen? Could it be channeled into the creation of a dimensional realm?

[Nightmask]

In general nothing, Ley Lines on Rifts Earth generate so much PPE after the Cataclysm that a lot of deaths near one or a Nexus really isn't going to matter much.

[Shark_Force]

based on what happened in tolkeen, it would be unpleasant, but would not trigger a worldwide disaster (or even really a local one), at least not all on its own. i don't believe it initiated a full-blown ley line storm, but it did make magic pretty hard to control there iirc.

that said, tolkeen also had a TW machine that was supposed to stop any ley line storms, so it's entirely possible that a ley line without such a device would get a storm, and the TW machine at least partially mitigated the effect (it's also worth noting that tolkeen had a ley line triangle, which allows for a bit more oomph than just a regular ley line, with 3 nexuses all clustered in a very small area iirc).

[Blue_Lion]

Tolkeen was they smashed a TW control matrix that had more PPE than millions of people and controlled the status of the ley line. They also blew up several pyramids killing people alone would not have the same effect.

[ShadowLogan]

If a large group of people dies near a ley line or a nexus, what happens? Is it another apocalypse or just a nasty ley line storm? Is there a way to store, harness, or dissipate the PPE safely?

Define "large group of people" since it is a relative term.

Short of a chance alignment and such, no there wouldn't be another apocalypse on the order of TGC of the late 21st Century on Rifts Earth. I don't know if it would cause a Ley Line storm or such, but a Pyramid (Stone) can harness/store/dissipate the PPE safely. There might be other options to like controlling entities (Millennium Trees, Wisdom Trees, the AI at Psyscape, etc).

[HWalsh]

Didn't it take an actual percentage of the people on Rifts earth to trigger the cataclysm?

Is there even enough people left to cause another one?

Isn't like 98% of the human race gone?

[eliakon]

If your looking to cause an Apocalypse level event your going to need conditions similar to the first.
Planetary Alignment (several), And a solstice, AND a full moon, at midnight....and then they killed several million people to start the chain....
With out those, your going to need to kill billions (maybe tens or hundreds of billions) at once. Don't forget part of the Apocalypse was that the ley lines were already bursting with energy (the surge periods)....so you would have to [i]fill up the planetary ley line system to its total carrying capacity and then still add more PPE[i]. Not exactly a trivial task.

[wyrmraker]

If your looking to cause an Apocalypse level event your going to need conditions similar to the first.
Planetary Alignment (several), And a solstice, AND a full moon, at midnight....and then they killed several million people to start the chain....
With out those, your going to need to kill billions (maybe tens or hundreds of billions) at once. Don't forget part of the Apocalypse was that the ley lines were already bursting with energy (the surge periods)....so you would have to [i]fill up the planetary ley line system to its total carrying capacity and then still add more PPE[i]. Not exactly a trivial task.

Don't forget the two transdimensional experiments that happened at the same time. One at Lone Star, the other that cause an entire city in Japan to rifts forward 250 years.

In short, it's an event with unknown variables, making replication practically impossible.

[Smooth Operator]

I'm actually looking to store it or put it to use. It seems like a waste to kill millions and not do something with all of the PPE that'll be released. The problem is gathering it when it's being discharged over an area of 100+ square miles and then finding a place to put it all.

[eliakon]

I'm actually looking to store it or put it to use. It seems like a waste to kill millions and not do something with all of the PPE that'll be released. The problem is gathering it when it's being discharged over an area of 100+ square miles and then finding a place to put it all.

According to the books you have to be 'ready' to channel the death energy. (so casters cant just utilize the 'death ppe' for spell casting). In theory you could make something that collects the energy automatically (There was such a device in the Nightbane book Through the Glass Darkly) but it likely would be less than optimally efficient.

[HWalsh]

I'm actually looking to store it or put it to use. It seems like a waste to kill millions and not do something with all of the PPE that'll be released. The problem is gathering it when it's being discharged over an area of 100+ square miles and then finding a place to put it all.

Where in rifts earth are you finding millions of people that you are killing? Maybe Japan?

There are only around 150,000,000 people left on Earth (outside of Japan) in Rifts. The US only has around 7.6 Million people in total if percentages remain consistent...

[drewkitty ~..~]

I'm actually looking to store it or put it to use. It seems like a waste to kill millions and not do something with all of the PPE that'll be released. The problem is gathering it when it's being discharged over an area of 100+ square miles and then finding a place to put it all.

Where in rifts earth are you finding millions of people that you are killing? Maybe Japan?

There are only around 150,000,000 people left on Earth (outside of Japan) in Rifts. The US only has around 7.6 Million people in total if percentages remain consistent...

And how did you come up with your numbers?

[Nightmask]

I'm actually looking to store it or put it to use. It seems like a waste to kill millions and not do something with all of the PPE that'll be released. The problem is gathering it when it's being discharged over an area of 100+ square miles and then finding a place to put it all.

Where in rifts earth are you finding millions of people that you are killing? Maybe Japan?

There are only around 150,000,000 people left on Earth (outside of Japan) in Rifts. The US only has around 7.6 Million people in total if percentages remain consistent...

So how are you defining 'people'? Since there's quite a bit of difference between totaling up just the human population and all the sentient beings around, plus killing a million rabbits isn't much different than killing a million people, since killing any living things with PPE is going to get you all the PPE that they have times two (it's just that the average mage or creature that makes use of PPE ends up or starts out evil so prefers killing sentient beings for that PPE rush).

[Shark_Force]

the CS alone appears to have close to 15 million people in the later books, iirc, and that's not counting non-humans. under 10 million for all of north america seems unlikely.

[SirRobin]

the CS alone appears to have close to 15 million people in the later books, iirc, and that's not counting non-humans. under 10 million for all of north america seems unlikely.

There was a topic on this board that went over population numbers. Will see if I can find it again.

Here is one of them.

[Tor]

Cast a spell that consumes the released PPE should do the trick...

Unless it attains sentience and begins to roam the globe killing whatever it can to keep itself alive.

#TTGD

Would a specially created pocket dimension with the properties of an energy sphere be able to hold it or would that much PPE in one area cause something weird to happen? Could it be channeled into the creation of a dimensional realm?

The energy sphere spell doesn't create a dimension. Using Between the Shadows as a guideline (astral realms) the creation of a dimension should probably cost permanent PPE, not temporary.

Although some gods (Algor for example) can spend tens of thousands of PPE to create new deific realms, this is not something that should be within the power of most mortals, since it is not simply a spell, but a deific power unique (so far as we know) to the most powerful of the Northern Gods, a colossal (x3size) top-tier Palladium World god.

Sahtalus also has some abilities along these lines but I think he has to pay permanent PPE (he burns up souls) and he requires a unique magical book to do it.

At best, most people simply using temporary PPE could only create temporary dimensions, like using the Temporal spell of Dimensional Envelope or something.

If you customized the spell via TTGD modification rules then you may create bigger or longer-lasting effects for extra PPE, of course, but that would take some time and good odds to succeed in.

[Smooth Operator]

I'm actually looking to store it or put it to use. It seems like a waste to kill millions and not do something with all of the PPE that'll be released. The problem is gathering it when it's being discharged over an area of 100+ square miles and then finding a place to put it all.

Where in rifts earth are you finding millions of people that you are killing? Maybe Japan?

There are only around 150,000,000 people left on Earth (outside of Japan) in Rifts. The US only has around 7.6 Million people in total if percentages remain consistent...

Splynn actually. There's plenty of bad guys that need to die over there and we might as well harvest the PPE while we're at it. We might use the Xiticix for a test run.

Would a specially created pocket dimension with the properties of an energy sphere be able to hold it or would that much PPE in one area cause something weird to happen? Could it be channeled into the creation of a dimensional realm?

The energy sphere spell doesn't create a dimension. Using Between the Shadows as a guideline (astral realms) the creation of a dimension should probably cost permanent PPE, not temporary.

Yeah, I meant a custom spell combining energy sphere with time hole pocket dimension. One of the FAQs says that you can use blood sacrifice PPE in the creation of a dimensional realm. Makes sense if you think about it. Death PPE is the most permanent PPE there is.

If you customized the spell via TTGD modification rules then you may create bigger or longer-lasting effects for extra PPE, of course, but that would take some time and good odds to succeed in.

I'll have to use the modification rules to make something on such a large scale. I am worried about the sentience thing, but that's the spell itself coming alive, right? Storing massive amounts of PPE in a concentrated area wouldn't do the same thing would it?

[Tor]

I meant a custom spell combining energy sphere with time hole pocket dimension.

I'm still not understanding the purpose of doing this. If you want to store PPE for a longer duration you can TTGD-custom a longer-duration Esphere. If you want to have a longer-lasting TimeHole then you can custom a higherPPE version which lasts longer too.

Under current rules and versions of spell I am not sure whether or not one could place an Energy Sphere within a Time Hole. If this were possible, I'm not sure whether the timelessness of the TimeHole would halt the duration-count of the Energy Sphere allowing you to store it indefinitely.

If that were the case, we wouldn't need to actually modify Esphere at all, just create a long-duration TimeHole (or alternatively Dimensional Envelope, dunno if a Dimensional Pocket would be large enough to store an Esphere).

It's probably just easier to make a series of Talismans. Already permanent, takes up less room than a sphere if you use a small object, just a higher investment cost.

One of the FAQs says that you can use blood sacrifice PPE in the creation of a dimensional realm. Makes sense if you think about it. Death PPE is the most permanent PPE there is.

No it isn't, you could actually use the heightened PPE from a Death to cast Resurrection on the person you just killed, and then kill them a second time and get the doubled-PPE all over again.

Although I would personally rule that when someone comes back from Ressurection that they start at 0 PPE and have to regenerate it to maximum per normal rules, to avoid murder-chaining people with high PPE to gain PPE. Anyone with more PPE than half the cost of casting Ressurection could be abused that way...

Although considering the <50% success rate, it would probably be more like requiring MORE than the cost of the Ressurection spell for this to be profitable. Still, many gods have enough PPE for such a tactic to work, so Rez'd people should start at 0 PPE.

[Smooth Operator]

I meant a custom spell combining energy sphere with time hole pocket dimension.

I'm still not understanding the purpose of doing this. If you want to store PPE for a longer duration you can TTGD-custom a longer-duration Esphere. If you want to have a longer-lasting TimeHole then you can custom a higherPPE version which lasts longer too.

Under current rules and versions of spell I am not sure whether or not one could place an Energy Sphere within a Time Hole. If this were possible, I'm not sure whether the timelessness of the TimeHole would halt the duration-count of the Energy Sphere allowing you to store it indefinitely.

If that were the case, we wouldn't need to actually modify Esphere at all, just create a long-duration TimeHole (or alternatively Dimensional Envelope, dunno if a Dimensional Pocket would be large enough to store an Esphere).

It's probably just easier to make a series of Talismans. Already permanent, takes up less room than a sphere if you use a small object, just a higher investment cost.

Not time hole. Time hole pocket dimension. It lasts for as long as you live plus 1D6 years per level.

The problem is scale. I need to absorb PPE from millions over a 100 square mile area. It would take thousands of energy spheres plus I would need to be in millions of places at once. At best, I can be in 4-8 places at once. Therefore, I need a spell that will absorb that energy over a large area and store it indefinitely.

[eliakon]

I meant a custom spell combining energy sphere with time hole pocket dimension.

I'm still not understanding the purpose of doing this. If you want to store PPE for a longer duration you can TTGD-custom a longer-duration Esphere. If you want to have a longer-lasting TimeHole then you can custom a higherPPE version which lasts longer too.

Under current rules and versions of spell I am not sure whether or not one could place an Energy Sphere within a Time Hole. If this were possible, I'm not sure whether the timelessness of the TimeHole would halt the duration-count of the Energy Sphere allowing you to store it indefinitely.

If that were the case, we wouldn't need to actually modify Esphere at all, just create a long-duration TimeHole (or alternatively Dimensional Envelope, dunno if a Dimensional Pocket would be large enough to store an Esphere).

It's probably just easier to make a series of Talismans. Already permanent, takes up less room than a sphere if you use a small object, just a higher investment cost.

Not time hole. Time hole pocket dimension. It lasts for as long as you live plus 1D6 years per level.

The problem is scale. I need to absorb PPE from millions over a 100 square mile area. It would take thousands of energy spheres plus I would need to be in millions of places at once. At best, I can be in 4-8 places at once. Therefore, I need a spell that will absorb that energy over a large area and store it indefinitely.

To be honest....at this point your so far into custom research that it seems like you might as well just make something that taps the ley lines directly......Unless there is a specific need to absorb and store the energy of a planned mass death event. In which case just make a spell that 'absorbs all death released ppe for the next X time in Y area and stores it in z' ....because basically your going to have to make up a totally new custom invention no matter how you do this.

[HWalsh]

I'm actually looking to store it or put it to use. It seems like a waste to kill millions and not do something with all of the PPE that'll be released. The problem is gathering it when it's being discharged over an area of 100+ square miles and then finding a place to put it all.

Where in rifts earth are you finding millions of people that you are killing? Maybe Japan?

There are only around 150,000,000 people left on Earth (outside of Japan) in Rifts. The US only has around 7.6 Million people in total if percentages remain consistent...

And how did you come up with your numbers?

Numeric extrapolation.

If I remember correctly 98% of the world's (human) population was wiped out. (If I am mistaken about this percentage that it does throw off the math.)

There are, at current, approximately 7.1 billion people on planet Earth.

1% of that is approximately 71,000,000, multiply that by 2, and we have 142,000,000 people on planet Earth remaining. (This is again, not counting Japan.)

Then we go off the fact that the USA houses approximately 4.4% of the world's population, so round up to 5% for ease of math.

1% of 142,000,000 people is 1,420,000 people.

If the US houses 5% that means there are approximately 7,100,000 people in the US in Rifts Earth.

[eliakon]

I'm actually looking to store it or put it to use. It seems like a waste to kill millions and not do something with all of the PPE that'll be released. The problem is gathering it when it's being discharged over an area of 100+ square miles and then finding a place to put it all.

Where in rifts earth are you finding millions of people that you are killing? Maybe Japan?

There are only around 150,000,000 people left on Earth (outside of Japan) in Rifts. The US only has around 7.6 Million people in total if percentages remain consistent...

And how did you come up with your numbers?

Numeric extrapolation.

If I remember correctly 98% of the world's (human) population was wiped out. (If I am mistaken about this percentage that it does throw off the math.)

There are, at current, approximately 7.1 billion people on planet Earth.

1% of that is approximately 71,000,000, multiply that by 2, and we have 142,000,000 people on planet Earth remaining. (This is again, not counting Japan.)

Then we go off the fact that the USA houses approximately 4.4% of the world's population, so round up to 5% for ease of math.

1% of 142,000,000 people is 1,420,000 people.

If the US houses 5% that means there are approximately 7,100,000 people in the US in Rifts Earth.

Errrrrr You do realize that those numbers ignore the fact that Golden Age Earth probably had a higher (And never canonically stated out) population than our earth?
And they would represent the number RIGHT after the cataclysm, not hundreds of years later with growth (let alone immigration)
The current population of Rifts Earth is likely several billion.....
As some examples
The nation of Nigeria has 14 million humans and 25 million D-Bees. And its considered 'sparsely populated'
The 'small city' of Worclaw in Poland has a population of 500,000
Chi-Town has a population of 2.2 million with 4 million more in the burbs. JUST CHI-TOWN

[HWalsh]

I'm actually looking to store it or put it to use. It seems like a waste to kill millions and not do something with all of the PPE that'll be released. The problem is gathering it when it's being discharged over an area of 100+ square miles and then finding a place to put it all.

Where in rifts earth are you finding millions of people that you are killing? Maybe Japan?

There are only around 150,000,000 people left on Earth (outside of Japan) in Rifts. The US only has around 7.6 Million people in total if percentages remain consistent...

And how did you come up with your numbers?

Numeric extrapolation.

If I remember correctly 98% of the world's (human) population was wiped out. (If I am mistaken about this percentage that it does throw off the math.)

There are, at current, approximately 7.1 billion people on planet Earth.

1% of that is approximately 71,000,000, multiply that by 2, and we have 142,000,000 people on planet Earth remaining. (This is again, not counting Japan.)

Then we go off the fact that the USA houses approximately 4.4% of the world's population, so round up to 5% for ease of math.

1% of 142,000,000 people is 1,420,000 people.

If the US houses 5% that means there are approximately 7,100,000 people in the US in Rifts Earth.

Errrrrr You do realize that those numbers ignore the fact that Golden Age Earth probably had a higher (And never canonically stated out) population than our earth?
And they would represent the number RIGHT after the cataclysm, not hundreds of years later with growth (let alone immigration)
The current population of Rifts Earth is likely several billion.....
As some examples
The nation of Nigeria has 14 million humans and 25 million D-Bees. And its considered 'sparsely populated'
The 'small city' of Worclaw in Poland has a population of 500,000
Chi-Town has a population of 2.2 million with 4 million more in the burbs. JUST CHI-TOWN

Isn't most of the human population though said to be in the Coalition Mega-Cities anyway? If those are the stated numbers than we (absolutely) can assume population explosions and the like. It still confirms to my main initial point. There aren't a whole lot of people left to just wantonly kill millions for PPE surges. It would be insanely hard to do.

Its also, even more likely, that the flavor text of 98% is simply incorrect and is probably exaggerated.

[eliakon]

Where in rifts earth are you finding millions of people that you are killing? Maybe Japan?

There are only around 150,000,000 people left on Earth (outside of Japan) in Rifts. The US only has around 7.6 Million people in total if percentages remain consistent...

And how did you come up with your numbers?

Numeric extrapolation.

If I remember correctly 98% of the world's (human) population was wiped out. (If I am mistaken about this percentage that it does throw off the math.)

There are, at current, approximately 7.1 billion people on planet Earth.

1% of that is approximately 71,000,000, multiply that by 2, and we have 142,000,000 people on planet Earth remaining. (This is again, not counting Japan.)

Then we go off the fact that the USA houses approximately 4.4% of the world's population, so round up to 5% for ease of math.

1% of 142,000,000 people is 1,420,000 people.

If the US houses 5% that means there are approximately 7,100,000 people in the US in Rifts Earth.

Errrrrr You do realize that those numbers ignore the fact that Golden Age Earth probably had a higher (And never canonically stated out) population than our earth?
And they would represent the number RIGHT after the cataclysm, not hundreds of years later with growth (let alone immigration)
The current population of Rifts Earth is likely several billion.....
As some examples
The nation of Nigeria has 14 million humans and 25 million D-Bees. And its considered 'sparsely populated'
The 'small city' of Worclaw in Poland has a population of 500,000
Chi-Town has a population of 2.2 million with 4 million more in the burbs. JUST CHI-TOWN

Isn't most of the human population though said to be in the Coalition Mega-Cities anyway? If those are the stated numbers than we (absolutely) can assume population explosions and the like. It still confirms to my main initial point. There aren't a whole lot of people left to just wantonly kill millions for PPE surges. It would be insanely hard to do.

Its also, even more likely, that the flavor text of 98% is simply incorrect and is probably exaggerated.

The Coalition State of Chi-Town has a dozen large cities with a population of 200,000-300,000
Combined with its hundreds of small villages it has a population of over 1.3 million (which would seem to exclude the cities which have at minimum 2.4 million more)
So just the state of Chi-Town has between 8 million and 12 million people. Just One State.

[HWalsh]

Not doubting you but those numbers make no sense. The cataclysm simply must have been exaggerated then in the flavor and setting text. Granted though, the world population in 1914 was only 1.7 billion so it is possible in a couple hundred years there was a human population explosion I guess.

Most likely just an issue of original mistake on behalf of the writer. Kind of like what we see in comic books. Sometimes a hero's origin simply wouldn't work but we just nod and move forward heh

[eliakon]

Not doubting you but those numbers make no sense. The cataclysm simply must have been exaggerated then in the flavor and setting text. Granted though, the world population in 1914 was only 1.7 billion so it is possible in a couple hundred years there was a human population explosion I guess.

Most likely just an issue of original mistake on behalf of the writer. Kind of like what we see in comic books. Sometimes a hero's origin simply wouldn't work but we just nod and move forward heh

The numbers actually do work pretty well....
1) don't look at the population of 1914....Look at the population of 1714, the dark ages lasted for, if I recall correctly, over two hundred years before the current calendar started.
2) the death toll was no where near 98% in most places. The few numbers I can find have rates in the 35%-45% rates on average. Meaning that the baseline was probably closer to starting with a post apocalypse population of three or four billion people. assume that you lose half of them to the first few years and you STILL have a starting population of a billion or two people to start with....then add in a few hundred years of multiplication.....and suddenly a world population in the billions makes perfect sense.

[HWalsh]

Not doubting you but those numbers make no sense. The cataclysm simply must have been exaggerated then in the flavor and setting text. Granted though, the world population in 1914 was only 1.7 billion so it is possible in a couple hundred years there was a human population explosion I guess.

Most likely just an issue of original mistake on behalf of the writer. Kind of like what we see in comic books. Sometimes a hero's origin simply wouldn't work but we just nod and move forward heh

The numbers actually do work pretty well....
1) don't look at the population of 1914....Look at the population of 1714, the dark ages lasted for, if I recall correctly, over two hundred years before the current calendar started.
2) the death toll was no where near 98% in most places. The few numbers I can find have rates in the 35%-45% rates on average. Meaning that the baseline was probably closer to starting with a post apocalypse population of three or four billion people. assume that you lose half of them to the first few years and you STILL have a starting population of a billion or two people to start with....then add in a few hundred years of multiplication.....and suddenly a world population in the billions makes perfect sense.

35 - 45% doesn't work. It says over 80% in the RUE and then more during the Dark Ages.

[ShadowLogan]

I meant a custom spell combining energy sphere with time hole pocket dimension.

I'm still not understanding the purpose of doing this. If you want to store PPE for a longer duration you can TTGD-custom a longer-duration Esphere. If you want to have a longer-lasting TimeHole then you can custom a higherPPE version which lasts longer too.

Under current rules and versions of spell I am not sure whether or not one could place an Energy Sphere within a Time Hole. If this were possible, I'm not sure whether the timelessness of the TimeHole would halt the duration-count of the Energy Sphere allowing you to store it indefinitely.

If that were the case, we wouldn't need to actually modify Esphere at all, just create a long-duration TimeHole (or alternatively Dimensional Envelope, dunno if a Dimensional Pocket would be large enough to store an Esphere).

It's probably just easier to make a series of Talismans. Already permanent, takes up less room than a sphere if you use a small object, just a higher investment cost.

Not time hole. Time hole pocket dimension. It lasts for as long as you live plus 1D6 years per level.

The problem is scale. I need to absorb PPE from millions over a 100 square mile area. It would take thousands of energy spheres plus I would need to be in millions of places at once. At best, I can be in 4-8 places at once. Therefore, I need a spell that will absorb that energy over a large area and store it indefinitely.

Options:
-Circle Magic (here you'll have to create a "new" Circle)
-Stone Magic Technology might also offer a solution (Pyramids)
-PPE Vampires (Psi-Stalkers, ex) set to absorb the PPE.
-Techo-wizard Device to acquire PPE and store it. The main draw back I think is coverage, but a network of devices with sufficient coverage should do the job. The details on all levels at this point need to be worked out (proper materials, spell chains, coverage, etc) and it might not even be possible.

Any method to acquire the death PPE also has to be able to survive what ever is causing the mass death to.

[Tor]

those numbers make no sense
The cataclysm simply must have been exaggerated then in the flavor and setting text.
the world population in 1914 was only 1.7 billion
it is possible in a couple hundred years there was a human population explosion

I am not understanding what specifically you think is the text mistake or the inconsistency here. Some page numbers and exact population numbers at exact dates (golden age, right after cataclysm, modern day, etc) would be useful.