permanent spells

[Tikk]

Hi all:
I did a search on here to see how a spell could be made permanent.
The only thing I saw was a ward that diabolists can create.
Besides the ward and the spell itself stating it can be made that why by extra expenditure of ppe etc
is there another way to make a spell permanent?
I am trying to cast a permanent featherlight spell on a rail gun.
Thanks in advance

[Blue_Lion]

Umm I can not think of a way to make feather light permanent by cannon, and your goal may be viewed by some as being munchkin. You might do better with a Temporal magic spell to pull it out when needed. Note the wgt. of the rail gun does help off set the kick. As the force has to move the mass of the weapon.

[Tikk]

Umm I can not think of a way to make feather light permanent by cannon, and your goal may be viewed by some as being munchkin. You might do better with a Temporal magic spell to pull it out when needed. Note the wgt. of the rail gun does help off set the kick. As the force has to move the mass of the weapon.

thanks for the reply Blue. others opinions don't matter to me since they aren't playing with me.
my search will continue

[Killer Cyborg]

Permance Ward is the only thing that I'm aware of.

[Tikk]

Permance Ward is the only thing that I'm aware of.

Thanks for replying killer

[Killer Cyborg]

Permance Ward is the only thing that I'm aware of.

Thanks for replying killer

Thanks for appreciating my futile assistance.

Actually... there's a strange tickling in the back of my brain as I think about your question.
There might be an obscure Rifts-Earth magic class that has a power/ability/spell that can make things permanent. Those guys in South America that can re-arrange ley lines, maybe.
Or somebody Russian...?
Not sure.


Then again, the tickling might just be the spiders hatching.

[Tikk]

Permance Ward is the only thing that I'm aware of.

Thanks for replying killer

Thanks for appreciating my futile assistance.

Actually... there's a strange tickling in the back of my brain as I think about your question.
There might be an obscure Rifts-Earth magic class that has a power/ability/spell that can make things permanent. Those guys in South America that can re-arrange ley lines, maybe.
Or somebody Russian...?
Not sure.


Then again, the tickling might just be the spiders hatching.

o.0 .... put a bot fly on your head so its eggs can hatch and feed the spiders.

[Blue_Lion]

Umm I can not think of a way to make feather light permanent by cannon, and your goal may be viewed by some as being munchkin. You might do better with a Temporal magic spell to pull it out when needed. Note the wgt. of the rail gun does help off set the kick. As the force has to move the mass of the weapon.

thanks for the reply Blue. others opinions don't matter to me since they aren't playing with me.
my search will continue

Looking it appears that Dimensional envelope might be able to help you transport the rail gun. Durations is up to 20 years per level of caster. The issue is you would need to find a way to transport an invisible door.

My about what others might think is some that are skilled in the rules will not help you if they feel your goal is trying to break the system.

[Zamion138]

Permanent stock no messing around, the ward.

Could also do eye of elroy with spell in it, or fairy battery from atlantis. Featherfall might be cheap enough to keep up with the ppe replenishment the two do natrualy.

Rune weapon.....not a weapon persey you could make it a "rune bolt" or nut in the device. Technicly it would be a weapon but it would only work as such if you pound some one with it.

Rail gun could be blessed via a god as a holy/unholy weapon and have the spell maintained from a defic gift.....probably the least likely rp wise.


The Forge from 3 galaxies could make it so. But again your asking for divine favor basicly.
Tw add on peice that casts via back ground ppe when you pick it up, or soulmancy via the chars blood/hp or mdc being eaten.

[Killer Cyborg]

Technically speaking, Techno-Wizardry can do absolutely anything that the GM allows.
So if you want to make a TW Spell Permafier, and if the GM approves it, you're all set.

[Shark_Force]

Permance Ward is the only thing that I'm aware of.

Thanks for replying killer

Thanks for appreciating my futile assistance.

Actually... there's a strange tickling in the back of my brain as I think about your question.
There might be an obscure Rifts-Earth magic class that has a power/ability/spell that can make things permanent. Those guys in South America that can re-arrange ley lines, maybe.
Or somebody Russian...?
Not sure.


Then again, the tickling might just be the spiders hatching.

the Nazcan Line Drawers do have a super-secret method of making nazca line drawings permanent. that doesn't sound terribly helpful in this case though, considering i don't know of a nazca line drawing that would apply the featherlight spell or equivalent.

apart from that, well... does it have to be a spell? naruni enterprises has a wearable anti-gravity harness iirc... i see no reason you couldn't adapt the tech to make a floating gun mount (although as mentioned, realistically you'd have problems with recoil if you tried something like that).

alternately, if you just want a way to use a heavy gun with low strength, there is a harness in russia that might as well be magical in terms of what kind of guns an unaugmented human can use...

[Nekira Sudacne]

Actually, there is a new way. The new Soulmancy magic practiced or bestowed by some demons has a spell that can make any other spell permanent on someone or something, but doing so utterly consumes a soul per spell (no afterlife, no reincarnation)

[drewkitty ~..~]

Make a spell that make a perm. effects.

[Mack]

With Techno-Wizardry it would be easy to make the rail gun become Featherlight "on demand," meaning you activate the feature when needed. (After all, does the gun always need to be light?)

If I get some time today, I'll play around with that approach to see if I can maximize the duration while minimizing the PPE.

[Tor]

TTGD variations allow for duration extensions if you can afford the extra PPE.

If you make it a ritual with a huge amount of requirements you can pretty much counter-act the high PPE or levels.

Although sadly adding limitations cannot lower it below its original level I think.

[drewkitty ~..~]

With Techno-Wizardry it would be easy to make the rail gun become Featherlight "on demand," meaning you activate the feature when needed. (After all, does the gun always need to be light?)

If I get some time today, I'll play around with that approach to see if I can maximize the duration while minimizing the PPE.

if you are trudging through a swamp you might want to have a continually weightless railgun...armor...etc..

However, to get a weightless armor or weapon you would go to an alchemist, not a TW.

[Mack]

With Techno-Wizardry it would be easy to make the rail gun become Featherlight "on demand," meaning you activate the feature when needed. (After all, does the gun always need to be light?)

If I get some time today, I'll play around with that approach to see if I can maximize the duration while minimizing the PPE.

if you are trudging through a swamp you might want to have a continually weightless railgun...armor...etc..

Don't dispute that at all. Was just thinking that easy to find partial solution might fit his needs better than a difficult to find full solution.

[Nightmask]

With Techno-Wizardry it would be easy to make the rail gun become Featherlight "on demand," meaning you activate the feature when needed. (After all, does the gun always need to be light?)

If I get some time today, I'll play around with that approach to see if I can maximize the duration while minimizing the PPE.

if you are trudging through a swamp you might want to have a continually weightless railgun...armor...etc..

Don't dispute that at all. Was just thinking that easy to find partial solution might fit his needs better than a difficult to find full solution.

A permanently weightless Railgun would be counter-productive anyway since the mass is important in helping deal with recoil, with no weight all the recoil transfers into you.

[Mack]

OK, so just running some TW numbers (and skipping all that pesky "role-playing" stuff) here's what I came up with.

TW Featherlight on a rail gun

Device Level: 6
Spells: Featherlight and Energize Spell (to double the duration)
Gems: 16 carats Malachite, 1 carat Red Zircon, 1.8 carats Diamond
Construction: 120 PPE and 72 hours (9 Days)
Activation Cost: 6 PPE
Duration: 2 hours
Payload: 6 activations in internal diamond storage
Build Cost: 76,200 credits

So overall you'd spend 36 PPE for 12 hours of Featherlight

Here's another version, but without Energize Spell

TW Featherlight on a rail gun

Device Level: 6
Spells: Featherlight
Gems: 15 carats Malachite, 0.6 carats Diamond
Construction: 40 PPE and 24 hours (3 Days)
Activation Cost: 2 PPE
Duration: 1 hour
Payload: 6 activations in internal diamond storage
Build Cost: 48,900 credits

So overall you'd spend 12 PPE for 6 hours of Featherlight

Obviously, if a big mound of Malachite is available then both of these could be improved further. Finding a high level TW would make a difference too, since the device level can't exceed the creator's level. A level 12 TW could make this work for 4 hours per activation.

Also, a TW could rig the system with a timer so that after triggering the first use of Featherlight, it would automatically reactivate at the end of the duration until running out of internal PPE.

[Mack]

With Techno-Wizardry it would be easy to make the rail gun become Featherlight "on demand," meaning you activate the feature when needed. (After all, does the gun always need to be light?)

If I get some time today, I'll play around with that approach to see if I can maximize the duration while minimizing the PPE.

if you are trudging through a swamp you might want to have a continually weightless railgun...armor...etc..

Don't dispute that at all. Was just thinking that easy to find partial solution might fit his needs better than a difficult to find full solution.

A permanently weightless Railgun would be counter-productive anyway since the mass is important in helping deal with recoil, with no weight all the recoil transfers into you.

That's a level of physics that I don't think the original poster is concerned with.

[Tor]

A permanently weightless Railgun would be counter-productive anyway since the mass is important in helping deal with recoil, with no weight all the recoil transfers into you.

Weightless may not mean massless so I think you could possibly still benefit from inertia.

[Blue_Lion]

A permanently weightless Railgun would be counter-productive anyway since the mass is important in helping deal with recoil, with no weight all the recoil transfers into you.

Weightless may not mean massless so I think you could possibly still benefit from inertia.

So if I understand your point it has no weight but is still as hard to move as if it was before you made it light. So then what was the point of making it light if it still requires the same force to move it.

How is mass measured? (I was under the impression that mass was measured in Weight.)

[guardiandashi]

A permanently weightless Railgun would be counter-productive anyway since the mass is important in helping deal with recoil, with no weight all the recoil transfers into you.

Weightless may not mean massless so I think you could possibly still benefit from inertia.

So if I understand your point it has no weight but is still as hard to move as if it was before you made it light. So then what was the point of making it light if it still requires the same force to move it.

How is mass measured? (I was under the impression that mass was measured in Weight.)

no mass and weight aren't the same.

with that said ... mass and weight on earth are essentially the same, but mass is a constant barring relativistic effects whereas weight is dependent on the gravity where you are measuring it.

[Glistam]

So wow, I looked in the Rifts: Book of Magic and there's a few notes there with Featherlight that're pretty interesting.

First off:

Featherlight allows a spell caster to reduce an object's (does not work on a living creature) weight to that of a feather. Due to loss of mass, that item is of no use as a weapon, because it is too light.

So depending on how this is interpreted, the weapon will be useless while the spell is active.

But, regardless of that, there was also this:

Furthermore, even if the mage cancels the magic, the object does not return to normal until it is sheathed or put down, so there is no picking up boulders and throwing them, then canceling the magic.

So as I interpret this... the spell is permanent as long as the weapon is not sheathed or put down. Sounds like a simple TW conversion here would be more than sufficient, and would only have to be re-cast/re-activated whenever the weapon is picked back up.

Barring that, here's some other thoughts that came to mind.

Rifter #17 offers a new, unofficial type of magic called "Dwomer Magic," and that discipline has a level 7 spell which can make other spells of that type permanent. It's based on/inspired by the Nazca Ley Line permanency drawing. That may offer a solution as well, if a spell you need can be found within that discipline of magic.

Alchemists from Palladium Fantasy can make armor weightless at a cost to the purchaser of 15,000 gold. I don't see why that couldn't be applied to a rail gun. The bigger challenge with this is getting a rail gun to an Alchemist. I believe it's possible there may be some in Atlantis, and I wouldn't be surprised to find out there were a couple somewhere in the Federation of Magic. Tolkeen probably had one or two as well, but depending on when you set your game that may or may not be a viable option.

[Blue_Lion]

A permanently weightless Railgun would be counter-productive anyway since the mass is important in helping deal with recoil, with no weight all the recoil transfers into you.

Weightless may not mean massless so I think you could possibly still benefit from inertia.

So if I understand your point it has no weight but is still as hard to move as if it was before you made it light. So then what was the point of making it light if it still requires the same force to move it.

How is mass measured? (I was under the impression that mass was measured in Weight.)

no mass and weight aren't the same.

with that said ... mass and weight on earth are essentially the same, but mass is a constant barring relativistic effects whereas weight is dependent on the gravity where you are measuring it.

I think you are confusing Neatens (sp) and weight measured in pounds or Kilograms. Something that has a weight of 100 pounds on earth has the same weight on the moon, but the force it applies Neatens (named after sir Isic) would change.

[drewkitty ~..~]

A permanently weightless Railgun would be counter-productive anyway since the mass is important in helping deal with recoil, with no weight all the recoil transfers into you.

Weightless may not mean massless so I think you could possibly still benefit from inertia.

So if I understand your point it has no weight but is still as hard to move as if it was before you made it light. So then what was the point of making it light if it still requires the same force to move it.

How is mass measured? (I was under the impression that mass was measured in Weight.)

It is the same amount of mass even if the weight is canceled out.
Yes, it is getting down to the exact meaning of the words, and how sometimes the right word is used (weight), but some people think the concept of that word also means some other thing (mass) also.

Weight: the effect of an acceleration field on an object.
Mass: the amount of energy in an object. E=MC²

Even then, the energy of the recoil is the same no matter what the weight or mass of the firearm is. Yes, the specific impulse of the energy transfer might be different, but the specific impulse is mainly changed by dampening springs and the venting of the exhaust gasses.

[Blue_Lion]

A permanently weightless Railgun would be counter-productive anyway since the mass is important in helping deal with recoil, with no weight all the recoil transfers into you.

Weightless may not mean massless so I think you could possibly still benefit from inertia.

So if I understand your point it has no weight but is still as hard to move as if it was before you made it light. So then what was the point of making it light if it still requires the same force to move it.

How is mass measured? (I was under the impression that mass was measured in Weight.)

It is the same amount of mass even if the weight is canceled out.
Yes, it is getting down to the exact meaning of the words, and how sometimes the right word is used (weight), but some people think the concept of that word also means some other thing (mass) also.

Weight: the effect of an acceleration field on an object.
Mass: the amount of energy in an object. E=MC²

Even then, the energy of the recoil is the same no matter what the weight or mass of the firearm is. Yes, the specific impulse of the energy transfer might be different, but the specific impulse is mainly changed by dampening springs and the venting of the exhaust gasses.

A rail gun is not a conventional fire arm so does not create the gas to vent like one would. The round of a rail gun is not pushed by rapidly expanding gas. This means gas venting to reduce recoil is not practice means. As it is not using the expanding gas.

. In order for a spring to reduce recoil pushing the spring must take less force then moving the weapon it is in the same amount. So the weight of the weapon affects the ability of a dampening spring to do its job. So by reducing the weight to this extent you have no placed all recoil on the shooter. Full auto weapons can be hard to control under normal conditions you just placed it in the worse conditions you can.
A heavy weapon like a rail gun would rely on the weight of the weapon to reduce recoil. Reducing that weight by 99.99% would significantly affect the reaction of the weapon.

IN other words doing this has sever draw backs and is not something you can fix with springs or gas vents in a rail gun.

By the way what you are reducing is the KG of an object which is how you measure mass. Could be the spell reduces the amount of energy/mass for its duration channeling the extra mass into another dimension. (As gravity on a planet is fairly constant that is the easiest way to do it.)

[drewkitty ~..~]

A rail gun is not a conventional fire arm so does not create the gas to vent like one would. The round of a rail gun is not pushed by rapidly expanding gas. This means gas venting to reduce recoil is not practice means. As it is not using the expanding gas.

. In order for a spring to reduce recoil pushing the spring must take less force then moving the weapon it is in the same amount. So the weight of the weapon affects the ability of a dampening spring to do its job. So by reducing the weight to this extent you have no placed all recoil on the shooter. Full auto weapons can be hard to control under normal conditions you just placed it in the worse conditions you can.
A heavy weapon like a rail gun would rely on the weight of the weapon to reduce recoil. Reducing that weight by 99.99% would significantly affect the reaction of the weapon.

IN other words doing this has sever draw backs and is not something you can fix with springs or gas vents in a rail gun.

By the way what you are reducing is the KG of an object which is how you measure mass. Could be the spell reduces the amount of energy/mass for its duration channeling the extra mass into another dimension. (As gravity on a planet is fairly constant that is the easiest way to do it.)

Duh....otherwise it would not be a railgun. Was giving a real-world example.

What a dampening spring does is to spread out the force impulse of a longer duration, thus reducing the absolute force level per micro-second. ALL of force still goes into the shooter (Basic Physics)....it just does not going into shooter all at once. This has nothing to do with the weight of the weapon.

If you mean the Mass of the weapon then please say mass since I did instigate the specific word meaning debate clause and defined the words weight and mass.

The ISS is weightless.....but is not massless.

While, Yes, the engineering might have to be changed due to there is no-longer weight pulling the barrel down after it has been fired.(talking generally about the weightless modern weapons), with most of the 'weightless' weapons looking mostly like a M-16 where the stock is strait connection from the barrel to the butt.

weight is pounds
Mass is kg.

I did say that there is a problem is..the spells being talked about reduce the "Weight" of the item, and says nothing about reducing the item's mass.

Do I need to go into another rendition of saying weight is not mass and mass is not weight?*sardonic*

[eliakon]

A rail gun is not a conventional fire arm so does not create the gas to vent like one would. The round of a rail gun is not pushed by rapidly expanding gas. This means gas venting to reduce recoil is not practice means. As it is not using the expanding gas.

. In order for a spring to reduce recoil pushing the spring must take less force then moving the weapon it is in the same amount. So the weight of the weapon affects the ability of a dampening spring to do its job. So by reducing the weight to this extent you have no placed all recoil on the shooter. Full auto weapons can be hard to control under normal conditions you just placed it in the worse conditions you can.
A heavy weapon like a rail gun would rely on the weight of the weapon to reduce recoil. Reducing that weight by 99.99% would significantly affect the reaction of the weapon.

IN other words doing this has sever draw backs and is not something you can fix with springs or gas vents in a rail gun.

By the way what you are reducing is the KG of an object which is how you measure mass. Could be the spell reduces the amount of energy/mass for its duration channeling the extra mass into another dimension. (As gravity on a planet is fairly constant that is the easiest way to do it.)

Duh....otherwise it would not be a railgun. Was giving a real-world example.

What a dampening spring does is to spread out the force impulse of a longer duration, thus reducing the absolute force level per micro-second. ALL of force still goes into the shooter (Basic Physics)....it just does not going into shooter all at once. This has nothing to do with the weight of the weapon.

If you mean the Mass of the weapon then please say mass since I did instigate the specific word meaning debate clause and defined the words weight and mass.

The ISS is weightless.....but is not massless.

While, Yes, the engineering might have to be changed due to there is no-longer weight pulling the barrel down after it has been fired.(talking generally about the weightless modern weapons), with most of the 'weightless' weapons looking mostly like a M-16 where the stock is strait connection from the barrel to the butt.

weight is pounds
Mass is kg.

I did say that there is a problem is..the spells being talked about reduce the "Weight" of the item, and says nothing about reducing the item's mass.

Do I need to go into another rendition of saying weight is not mass and mass is not weight?*sardonic*

THIS ^ Is the sort of stuff that gets people turned off on forums.
A poster asks "hey how do I make my gun permanently light weight so I can carry it with out encumbrance" and they get ranted at on their misuse of physics because they used the terms that the game uses and not the proper physics terms.
Don't get me wrong. I like physics. But this is not a physics dissertation, its a game. In the game you have stuff that is 'weightless' its weightless because in game speak that means it doesn't weigh you down. All that physics stuff? Its not really in there. It can be....but its not really part of the game and to be honest a large portion of the target demographic (and most of the writers) don't know the difference between mass and weight.

[Killer Cyborg]

If they don't know the difference between mass and weight, then they should really pay more attention to this kind of conversation.

[Nightmask]

A rail gun is not a conventional fire arm so does not create the gas to vent like one would. The round of a rail gun is not pushed by rapidly expanding gas. This means gas venting to reduce recoil is not practice means. As it is not using the expanding gas.

. In order for a spring to reduce recoil pushing the spring must take less force then moving the weapon it is in the same amount. So the weight of the weapon affects the ability of a dampening spring to do its job. So by reducing the weight to this extent you have no placed all recoil on the shooter. Full auto weapons can be hard to control under normal conditions you just placed it in the worse conditions you can.
A heavy weapon like a rail gun would rely on the weight of the weapon to reduce recoil. Reducing that weight by 99.99% would significantly affect the reaction of the weapon.

IN other words doing this has sever draw backs and is not something you can fix with springs or gas vents in a rail gun.

By the way what you are reducing is the KG of an object which is how you measure mass. Could be the spell reduces the amount of energy/mass for its duration channeling the extra mass into another dimension. (As gravity on a planet is fairly constant that is the easiest way to do it.)

Duh....otherwise it would not be a railgun. Was giving a real-world example.

What a dampening spring does is to spread out the force impulse of a longer duration, thus reducing the absolute force level per micro-second. ALL of force still goes into the shooter (Basic Physics)....it just does not going into shooter all at once. This has nothing to do with the weight of the weapon.

If you mean the Mass of the weapon then please say mass since I did instigate the specific word meaning debate clause and defined the words weight and mass.

The ISS is weightless.....but is not massless.

While, Yes, the engineering might have to be changed due to there is no-longer weight pulling the barrel down after it has been fired.(talking generally about the weightless modern weapons), with most of the 'weightless' weapons looking mostly like a M-16 where the stock is strait connection from the barrel to the butt.

weight is pounds
Mass is kg.

I did say that there is a problem is..the spells being talked about reduce the "Weight" of the item, and says nothing about reducing the item's mass.

Do I need to go into another rendition of saying weight is not mass and mass is not weight?*sardonic*

THIS ^ Is the sort of stuff that gets people turned off on forums.
A poster asks "hey how do I make my gun permanently light weight so I can carry it with out encumbrance" and they get ranted at on their misuse of physics because they used the terms that the game uses and not the proper physics terms.
Don't get me wrong. I like physics. But this is not a physics dissertation, its a game. In the game you have stuff that is 'weightless' its weightless because in game speak that means it doesn't weigh you down. All that physics stuff? Its not really in there. It can be....but its not really part of the game and to be honest a large portion of the target demographic (and most of the writers) don't know the difference between mass and weight.

Well (most) haven't been ranting, but if something's weightless it's effectively massless since you can't have it retain its mass and not also retain its weight. So a weightless railgun is effectively massless and isn't going to give you the benefits its mass provides in resisting recoil. It can't both have mass and not have weight, if it still had the mass then it would still have the weight.

As far as units go, pounds is the unit of weight in the English system but slugs are the unit of mass not kilograms.

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip

The ISS is weightless.....but is not massless.
...snip

Well (most) haven't been ranting, but if something's weightless it's effectively massless since you can't have it retain its mass and not also retain its weight. So a weightless railgun is effectively massless and isn't going to give you the benefits its mass provides in resisting recoil. It can't both have mass and not have weight, if it still had the mass then it would still have the weight.

As far as units go, pounds is the unit of weight in the English system but slugs are the unit of mass not kilograms.

Note my example of something that has no weight but has mass?

Mass has to do with interta. "A body at rest tends to stay at rest and an body in motion tends to stay in motion unless acted on an outside force."

Weight has to do with gravity or things like centrifugal forces that produce an acceleration field.

[Blue_Lion]

snip

The ISS is weightless.....but is not massless.
...snip

Well (most) haven't been ranting, but if something's weightless it's effectively massless since you can't have it retain its mass and not also retain its weight. So a weightless railgun is effectively massless and isn't going to give you the benefits its mass provides in resisting recoil. It can't both have mass and not have weight, if it still had the mass then it would still have the weight.

As far as units go, pounds is the unit of weight in the English system but slugs are the unit of mass not kilograms.

Note my example of something that has no weight but has mass?

Mass has to do with interta. "A body at rest tends to stay at rest and an body in motion tends to stay in motion unless acted on an outside force."

Weight has to do with gravity or things like centrifugal forces that produce an acceleration field.

Weight and mass are connected in any field of gravity as what we perceive as weight is how much the mass is affected by gravity. So a significant change in weight on in standard gravity requires either something changing the amount of gravity or changing the amount of mass. As the spell makes a weapon like a sword useless as a weapon that means the sword is not producing the same inertia when some one swings it. With that we can safely assume that this spell is doing something magic is really good at, changing the mass of an object in the blink of an eye.


As I understand it the newtons of a object change by gravity but its grams remains the same. IE a 500Kg space station in space still has a mass of 500Kg but is producing weight of 0 newtons.

Newtons

The correct unit for force is the Newton (=1 kg·m/s2) which is abbreviated N.
That is the correct unit for measuring weight in scientific measuring Grams and kilograms there is confusion because we often use mass scale to measure weight.

Although you are right that in the standard (or British imperial system) system it is slug that measures mass, but in the scientific system it is grams/kilograms.

(Note a damping spring requires less force to move the spring than the object itself, because if it takes less energy to move the weapon that has a spring in it the weapon will move before the spring making the spring useless.)

[drewkitty ~..~]

hummm...after reviewing the featherlight spell I will have to say your are correct if using the featherlight spell, but incorrect if the spell being used is the weightlessness spell.

This is because the FL spell says it reduces the effective mass of the object while the weightlessness spell says it cancels the weight of the object.

Since the FL spell can't be used on living things I don't use it. Cause it is most useful to reduce the weight of chars when battling an opponent.

[Glistam]

The Featherlight spell actually addresses this isssue.

[Blue_Lion]

hummm...after reviewing the featherlight spell I will have to say your are correct if using the featherlight spell, but incorrect if the spell being used is the weightlessness spell.

This is because the FL spell says it reduces the effective mass of the object while the weightlessness spell says it cancels the weight of the object.

Since the FL spell can't be used on living things I don't use it. Cause it is most useful to reduce the weight of chars when battling an opponent.

source of weightlessness spell?

[Glistam]

hummm...after reviewing the featherlight spell I will have to say your are correct if using the featherlight spell, but incorrect if the spell being used is the weightlessness spell.

This is because the FL spell says it reduces the effective mass of the object while the weightlessness spell says it cancels the weight of the object.

Since the FL spell can't be used on living things I don't use it. Cause it is most useful to reduce the weight of chars when battling an opponent.

Source for the weightlessness spell?

Palladium Fantasy and Heroes Unlimited Game Master's Guide.

[Blue_Lion]

hummm...after reviewing the featherlight spell I will have to say your are correct if using the featherlight spell, but incorrect if the spell being used is the weightlessness spell.

This is because the FL spell says it reduces the effective mass of the object while the weightlessness spell says it cancels the weight of the object.

Since the FL spell can't be used on living things I don't use it. Cause it is most useful to reduce the weight of chars when battling an opponent.

Source for the weightlessness spell?

Palladium Fantasy and Heroes Unlimited Game Master's Guide.

found it and edited the post.

Sorry but your statement Drewkitty on Weightlessness does not match what I see on PF PG191.
Last paragraph last sentence.

Likewise, the damage inflicted from striking attacks (punches, kicks, sword strikes, etc.) and the amount of weight the person can lift are also reduced by 75% because the weightless character doesn't have the mass to inflict serious damage or carry heavy items.

(Note the copy of the spell in HU GMG is the same word for word.)
So according to my book that spell is also changing the weight by changing the mass, something magic is really good at.

[Mack]

Friends,

Let's stick to a Rifts discussion, and simply drop the physics/weight/mass tangent. Instead, let's focus on helping the original poster solve his challenge.

[Blue_Lion]

Sorry my fault, I think the work you did on the TW is most likely the best way to do it by the rules. In theory you can combine spells in the change to give to combine the properties such as adding a permeate spell and just using it to modify the duration, but that is more up to the GM to do than any rule formula given for TW creation.

[Glistam]

The duration on the spell Featherlight does not run out until the item is sheathed or put down. A quick TW conversion and an activation whenever the weapon is picked up will do the trick. Unfortunately, while the Featherlight spell is active the weapon cannot deal damage, so this has travel applications but not really combat applications.

[Tor]

So if I understand your point it has no weight but is still as hard to move as if it was before you made it light.

No, possessing more inertia would not mean it was still as hard to move. Gravity and inertia are separate factors.

So then what was the point of making it light if it still requires the same force to move it.

Gravity affects the difficulty of lifting and carrying things, moving them away from the earth.

When discussing recoil we are discussing how much force it takes to get it moving horizantally.

How is mass measured? (I was under the impression that mass was measured in Weight.)

Mass is constant, weight depends on what body you are measuring it relative to.

I would have the same mass on the moon, but weigh less on the moon.

This distinction appears to be moot though because...

First off:

Featherlight allows a spell caster to reduce an object's (does not work on a living creature) weight to that of a feather. Due to loss of mass, that item is of no use as a weapon, because it is too light.

So depending on how this is interpreted, the weapon will be useless while the spell is active.

Based on the excerpt which Glistam quoted, apparently the loss in weight is attained due to a loss of mass, as opposed to simply compromising gravity (meaning I guess that it falls at the same rate as it normally would) so a railgun would have less inertia, so the point I discussed earlier doesn't matter now.

However anything else that refers to weight should not be assumed to also mean mass unless this is specified, which is appears Featherlight does.

That said, the idea that losing mass/weight makes a weapon useless due to being light is ridiculous. Some weapons (like mauls and arguably broadswords) rely on force, sure. But other weapons (like a stiletto or daggers and stabbing or slashing weapons in general) do not rely heavily on mass and should retain almost full usefulness, if not improving since the low weight would mean the wielder could swing/stab faster.

A weapon lacking mass wouldn't really matter unless you were throwing it. Weapons used in HtH would have the weight of their wielder behind them. In the case of daggers, this is probably where most of the momentum comes from anyway.

there was also this:

Furthermore, even if the mage cancels the magic, the object does not return to normal until it is sheathed or put down, so there is no picking up boulders and throwing them, then canceling the magic.

So as I interpret this... the spell is permanent as long as the weapon is not sheathed or put down.

This is quite clever, that never sprung to mind for me.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Bows out due to writers changing the meanings of things in the end of the spell.

[Killer Cyborg]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/weight
1. the amount or quantity of heaviness or mass; amount a thing weighs.
2. Physics. the force that gravitation exerts upon a body, equal to the mass of the body times the local acceleration of gravity: commonly taken, in a region of constant gravitational acceleration, as a measure of mass.
3. a system of units for expressing heaviness or mass:

[Zamion138]

The duration on the spell Featherlight does not run out until the item is sheathed or put down. A quick TW conversion and an activation whenever the weapon is picked up will do the trick. Unfortunately, while the Featherlight spell is active the weapon cannot deal damage, so this has travel applications but not really combat applications.

If the ammo is not featherlightned then the rail gun still does damedge, the spell is talking about swords and hammers. So shooting something out of a feather light weapon, it still does work. Espicaly sense a railgun doesnt have the same as a gas operated rilfe, so the bolt carrier doesnt have to come back to battery or recock something via weight of the gas espansion.
A railgun would work as would a laser, but not a AK or M4, a bolt action rifle would still work. The first round out of an automatic rifle would work as well just not the next shot unless the pc manualy cycles the rifle by hand...unless the extreme lightness of the bolt damedges the internals from being moved from the spring or gas moving them so fast.

[Mack]

Tor, Killer Cyborg,

Please re-read my previous post. It's in red text (like this one) and rather easy to find.

[Killer Cyborg]

Oops!
My bad.

[Glistam]

The duration on the spell Featherlight does not run out until the item is sheathed or put down. A quick TW conversion and an activation whenever the weapon is picked up will do the trick. Unfortunately, while the Featherlight spell is active the weapon cannot deal damage, so this has travel applications but not really combat applications.

If the ammo is not featherlightned then the rail gun still does damedge, the spell is talking about swords and hammers. So shooting something out of a feather light weapon, it still does work. Espicaly sense a railgun doesnt have the same as a gas operated rilfe, so the bolt carrier doesnt have to come back to battery or recock something via weight of the gas espansion.
A railgun would work as would a laser, but not a AK or M4, a bolt action rifle would still work. The first round out of an automatic rifle would work as well just not the next shot unless the pc manualy cycles the rifle by hand...unless the extreme lightness of the bolt damedges the internals from being moved from the spring or gas moving them so fast.

If the weapon is made featherlight then the ammo in it is featherlight as well. The spell specifically says featherlight objects cannot be "thrown" and gain their mass back, so the weapon would fire featherlight ammo and do no damage. It's magic, it doesn't have to make sense - it just has to follow its own rules.

[Brayon]

So, TW a Featherlight componet on the Rail Gun. Pick it up and move to where needed. Sit it down, to fire from defensive area to use weapon. Reactivate TW device, and repeat. Sounds like a very logical, and practical use. If an Unaugmented person were to do the above, I would have no issues with it at My Table as a GM. If they were going to try an fire said weapon while featherlight, that would be an issue.

Otherwise, a Custom Spell, and someone to enchant a Rail Cannon.

[guardiandashi]

So, TW a Featherlight componet on the Rail Gun. Pick it up and move to where needed. Sit it down, to fire from defensive area to use weapon. Reactivate TW device, and repeat. Sounds like a very logical, and practical use. If an Unaugmented person were to do the above, I would have no issues with it at My Table as a GM. If they were going to try an fire said weapon while featherlight, that would be an issue.

Otherwise, a Custom Spell, and someone to enchant a Rail Cannon.

I could see a smart TW or mage coming up with a variant of featherweight or similar spells that shield an object from the effects of gravity rather than reducing its mass.
the problem is a massive but weightless object would still be dangerous to carry as its going to have all its normal inertia.

a good way to simulate this is similar to how astronauts train for some satellite repairs and similar, they put on their space suits and get in a swimming pool, the water and buoyancy effectively reduce the effects of gravity, but do NOT eliminate mass and inertia.

one of the neat stupid tricks that I have done is I had a stalled out car (1973 dodge dart equivalent) that car weighed ~3000+lbs, and there is absolutely NO way I could lift the thing, but on level and even slight inclines I was able to push it (such as out of an intersection) as long as it was in neutral (automatic transmission version) so it is theoretically possible but likely not a great idea to eliminate weight or mass on a semi large object.