Where are the CS factories?

[HWalsh]

I wouldn't say the GB is strictly better infantry. The GB is a hybrid unit. It has many if the advantages of Infantry but also many tank-like advantages. It is small enough to go places a tank cannot, it is much harder to detect, (Try hutting a man-sized target at 2 miles without a GPS system on a missile. It won't work.) or hit.

It hits (Single targets) with as much force as a missile but is not able to be stopped by anti-missile countermeasures.

A GB doesn't really have a real world counterpart. But remember, the GB is not meant to deploy alone.

[Pepsi Jedi]

It helps when the target is 12 feet tall and gleaming chrome.

Sorry. I know you guys are being serious about this sort of thing. I'm on the record for not much liking the glitter boy. Most people ignore it's major drawback. That being the immobility of it when it's shooting. Having to stop and deploy pylons and being quite literally rooted/bolted to the ground is a huuuge disadvantage.

Not trying to get the debate going again. It seems many people think such is a free action, not even taking a melee action to do, in effect allowing the Glitter boy to run and shoot in that instant between foot steps and keep right on running. Some (Myself included) Read the entrys about them having to stop and deploy those pylons and see it as the limitation that was purposefully built in.

Still that's not really about the CS factories which is what this thread is about.

[Tor]

Pepsi the problem is that the GB disadvantage is purely a theoretical one, the combat stats do not actually reflect it.

GBs only get anchored for the micro-moment (melee attack) in which they shoot. There is no actual delay in their combat performance from doing so. The pylons and jets automatically engage when you pull the trigger and automatically disengage when you're done. I'm not even sure if pilots can manually over-ride this.

There are certainly some RP limitations here which limit certain tactics. Like if you are standing on the roof of an SDC hospital with sick kids in the room below you, engaging your pylons would not be the best idea as you might impale them or collapse the roof. It would also cause trouble if you wanted to ride in the back of a truck and have it drive you away as you fired at pursuers. Also a huge problem if you want to fight on a boat.

But in average combat scenarios where you're walking around on some earth, popping holes in the soil will not inconvenience you.

The dodge penalty with the triax variation increases when pylons are out (does not seem to bother the normal GB) but even then, I can not think of how that penalty could possibly ever apply, because the pylon automatically go back in when you shoot.

Unless there is some move that lets you dodge and shoot in the same melee action, your pylons would not be out to impede your dodging, short of some kind of malfunction. There is that anti-mechanical spell (has a TW weapon in FoM, sweet stuff) which might target the pylons and freeze them in the 'out' mode I guess...

But considering they are underground when they come out, I have trouble understanding how they could be targetted.

[Dustin Fireblade]

I recall reading somwehere that the Proseks decided not to go with the Glitter Boy armors because they couldn't build them, couldn't repair them very well, and that the link to Pre-War NEMA would erode their position as having 'invented' all of their technology, instead of just recovering old data. Can't remember exactly where, but I do recall reading it.

Also, one of the biggest reasons for all the tension between Quebec and the rest of the CS was how Quebec actually stuck to the CS constitution and defied Emperor Prosek, refusing to share any and all of the Glitter Boy secrets.

I think you may be referring to page 72 of the Free Quebec world book (1st printing) at least partially -

"In the early years toward the very end of the Dark Ages, Chi-Town gave up on the Glitter Boys and adopted other means of defense and making war. Back then they lacked the scientific knowledge and manufacturing capabilities to make the laser resistant Glitter Boys. Consequently, as their original stockpile was slowly destroyed in combat, they were permanently lost."

This section then goes on to talk about how the CS would outlaw the Glitter Boy armor. Free Quebec would be allowed to keep theirs (after FQ greatly protested) only under the condition they phase out the Glitter Boys.


On the topic of the CS inventing the technology vs simply recovering it and using it - I believe this is discussed in several books. The Bandito Sidewinder SAMAS in New West talks about how the Black Market thought (like everyone else) that the CS invented the SAMAS armor for example. The original SAMAS write-up in WB11 also talks about how only the Emperor and the CS Military High Command know that the SAMAS is a pre-rifts invention


Regarding the tension between the CS and Free Quebec, pages 20-21 of the Free Quebec (1st printing) discusses the basis genesis of the problems between them. Likewise, page 20 of World Book 5 (1st print) talks about the FQ and Triax exchanging Glitter Boy technology, and the fallout surrounding it.

Hope this helps.

[Shark_Force]

I wouldn't say the GB is strictly better infantry. The GB is a hybrid unit. It has many if the advantages of Infantry but also many tank-like advantages. It is small enough to go places a tank cannot, it is much harder to detect, (Try hutting a man-sized target at 2 miles without a GPS system on a missile. It won't work.) or hit.

It hits (Single targets) with as much force as a missile but is not able to be stopped by anti-missile countermeasures.

A GB doesn't really have a real world counterpart. But remember, the GB is not meant to deploy alone.

sure, like i said, it can do lots of things reasonably well. but the role it fills best is that of infantry. it can't really replace a tank, or artillery, or anti-air guns, but it pretty much can completely replace infantry. for just about any other job, a cheaper and better option is available.

as to its ability to deploy with other troops, like i already said: you can't really. the boom gun is a great weapon, but you will quickly destroy the hearing of your own troops permanently if you regularly position them near a glitter boy in combat. and it has some really nasty penalties that it inflicts, too, on people near the boom gun itself, so even before you permanently destroy their hearing, any glitter boy you place with your regular troops either doesn't ever shoot, or it causes major problems for everyone nearby, including your own soldiers.

if the CS could just mix in a few glitter boys into their regular infantry squads, they might be more interested... again, *if* they didn't have a nigh-endless supply of people desperate enough to get shot for a chance to earn citizenship, which might actually force them to try and look for ways to get more effectiveness out of fewer soldiers.

as it stands, they can't integrate glitter boys without retooling every other unit they use, and any benefit they might gain from using glitter boys could be done cheaper and better by having more of some other type of war machine.

[Nightmask]

I wouldn't say the GB is strictly better infantry. The GB is a hybrid unit. It has many if the advantages of Infantry but also many tank-like advantages. It is small enough to go places a tank cannot, it is much harder to detect, (Try hutting a man-sized target at 2 miles without a GPS system on a missile. It won't work.) or hit.

It hits (Single targets) with as much force as a missile but is not able to be stopped by anti-missile countermeasures.

A GB doesn't really have a real world counterpart. But remember, the GB is not meant to deploy alone.

sure, like i said, it can do lots of things reasonably well. but the role it fills best is that of infantry. it can't really replace a tank, or artillery, or anti-air guns, but it pretty much can completely replace infantry. for just about any other job, a cheaper and better option is available.

as to its ability to deploy with other troops, like i already said: you can't really. the boom gun is a great weapon, but you will quickly destroy the hearing of your own troops permanently if you regularly position them near a glitter boy in combat. and it has some really nasty penalties that it inflicts, too, on people near the boom gun itself, so even before you permanently destroy their hearing, any glitter boy you place with your regular troops either doesn't ever shoot, or it causes major problems for everyone nearby, including your own soldiers.

if the CS could just mix in a few glitter boys into their regular infantry squads, they might be more interested... again, *if* they didn't have a nigh-endless supply of people desperate enough to get shot for a chance to earn citizenship, which might actually force them to try and look for ways to get more effectiveness out of fewer soldiers.

as it stands, they can't integrate glitter boys without retooling every other unit they use, and any benefit they might gain from using glitter boys could be done cheaper and better by having more of some other type of war machine.

I think there's been mention that things like full environmental armor and power armor provide protection against the hearing damage a Boom gun can cause, as well as bionic hearing being immune to the problem so it's not like it's an insurmountable problem.

[Shark_Force]

RMB page 223:

"The GB suit is specially insulated from the shock waves of the Boom GUR, however, everybody within 200 feet will be temporarily deafened. Characters without any type of head/ear protection will be temporarily deafened for 2D4 minutes and are -8 on initiative and -3 to parry and dodge. Characters who are in protective body or power armor will have some protection, but are still temporarily deafened for 1D4 minutes; same penalties apply. Each sonic boom adds to the duration of the deafness."

so it arguably does offer *some* protection, but it clearly doesn't offer anywhere *near* enough protection to matter.

the cybernetic sound filtration system may or may not help (or rather, may or may not help enough - it presumably must help at least to some extent)... it does say that it provides protection against loud sounds, but does not specify boom guns in particular, which is somewhat of an unfortunate omission. normally i'd say it's easily enough, but the boom gun in particular seems to create a sufficiently loud noise that i would expect it to cause problems to anything not specifically designed to handle the boom gun sound, what with it shattering windows 200 feet away and all.

[Pepsi Jedi]

That's just annoying. Plays merry hell with battle communication too. Other than hand signals, being unable to communicate for 2 to 8 minutes, 8 to 32 melee rounds is a significant downside. Even if you work out a sign language (and spend a skill slot for it) you still have to be in direct LOS for it to work, which is limiting and in battle conditions hard to maintain.

It's mitigated a bit by the fact that any time a GB Takes the field, that they become target number one. At least their boom gun does. They get off one shot. BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM! And the other side all vectors on the boom gun to take it out of commission, if not the GB in total. Then move on to the other threats. Now the GB isn't going to just let that happen of course. They're going to fight back. But even a fire team of CS with standard gear is going to take down the GB pretty fast. The Boom gun has 175 MDC. You gotta know in basic training the CS grunts get told "If you ever see a glitter boy on the filed of battle, your primary objective will be taking out the boom gun. ASAP. So when the GB starts shooting the CS Sergent goes over the coms in their helmet. "DRAGONFIRES! M-F Grenades. Rapid fire. Target BOOM GUN. Everyone else, covering fire. Light it up!!"

So yeah, lasers do half damage but the troops that don't have the Dragonfires, are pouring 4+ attacks per melee down range with their lasers. They're doing half damage but they're still doing damage. The troops out fitted with the CP50s flick the switch and are firing bursts of Micro Fusion Grenades. 6D6X4 per attack for three attacks. That's 72D6 thrown at the boom gun, in 3 actions, -per- troop armed with the CP 50. That boom gun is going to get shredded pdq. Once the boom gun is disabled.... well then the bot can be downed at leisure.

Now the GB has range. And range is awesome. Thing is it's rare that you're enguaging targets at 2 miles. You're not going to be picking up man sized targets at that range. Vehicles? Sure, but not ground troops. If they're power armor or something, as soon as that first boom comes along, you're going to be mobile. Your own targeting computer is going to pick up the glitter boy and you're goign to either get air borne or take cover and advance, if you're not returning fire with missiles etc.

It boils down to the direct limitations spelled out in the books. "Glitter boys were -never- meant to be fielded alone"

[Shark_Force]

minor side note, but... i don't think you can aimed shot a burst, which means you can't called shot a burst (at the very least, you can't in RUE... you might be able to in RMB, not sure?). an infantry squad will still take out a boom gun fairly quickly if they focus fire it, just not with bursts. but i'd expect it to actually be quicker to finish off the glitter boy.

[Blue_Lion]

That generally requires that they did not deploy an entire GB legion and or that you significantly outnumber the side deploying GBs. But one or even two on one the GB will mop the floor with most opposition. The same argument you are making against the GB about burning them down (or there weapon) by a swarm can be done to most tanks and even the Samas rail gun can have this done.

[Pepsi Jedi]

That generally requires that they did not deploy an entire GB legion and or that you significantly outnumber the side deploying GBs. But one or even two on one the GB will mop the floor with most opposition. The same argument you are making against the GB about burning them down (or there weapon) by a swarm can be done to most tanks and even the Samas rail gun can have this done.

Pretty much a moot point as there's only one nation that 'has' glitter boy legions. Unless you're fighting FQ you're not going to find a legion of GB.

As for one on one, the GB is nice but hardly top of the heap. Any PA with missiles will likewise shred the GB pretty fast. The half damage from lasers doesn't stop them. Target the boom gun. Then the rest is just mop up. Even the write up for the GB in the book says they don't stand a chance against a pair of Samus.

[Shark_Force]

glitter boy legions only get to face 1:1 odds if they're up against an enemy with drastically fewer resources. at which point, you could have substantially better than 1:1 odds if you were using just about any other type of war machine, because all signs point to glitter boys being extremely difficult to make compared to just about anything else.

[Blue_Lion]

That generally requires that they did not deploy an entire GB legion and or that you significantly outnumber the side deploying GBs. But one or even two on one the GB will mop the floor with most opposition. The same argument you are making against the GB about burning them down (or there weapon) by a swarm can be done to most tanks and even the Samas rail gun can have this done.

Pretty much a moot point as there's only one nation that 'has' glitter boy legions. Unless you're fighting FQ you're not going to find a legion of GB.

As for one on one, the GB is nice but hardly top of the heap. Any PA with missiles will likewise shred the GB pretty fast. The half damage from lasers doesn't stop them. Target the boom gun. Then the rest is just mop up. Even the write up for the GB in the book says they don't stand a chance against a pair of Samus.

Sorry but you can not do called shot with missiles not even mini-missiles they always hit the main body. A GB does stand a perty good chance against a pair of Samas.
If you want to compare resources mini missiles are lot more expensive than boom gun rounds.

[Blue_Lion]

glitter boy legions only get to face 1:1 odds if they're up against an enemy with drastically fewer resources. at which point, you could have substantially better than 1:1 odds if you were using just about any other type of war machine, because all signs point to glitter boys being extremely difficult to make compared to just about anything else.

Difficult because not every place can make them do to the technology required in there construction. But as the people that are known to make them can crank them out the key is having the factories able to build them.

But this rant is really off subject. So I am done.

[Shark_Force]

except that those who can make them, can only make them in very limited quantities. even with triax producing them, they're still extremely expensive. there is absolutely nothing to support the idea that the glitter boy is easy to produce once you know the secrets. triax added a dinky little shoulder laser to the suit and started producing it... and what impact did that have on the price, now that a new manufacturer arrived on the scene with incredible manufacturing capabilities? it more than doubled.

arguably, the only reason glitter boys cost such a comparatively low amount is that they were all salvaged, and thus there was no production cost. when you put a production cost into the mix, the value went from 25 million to 60 million.

[Nightmask]

except that those who can make them, can only make them in very limited quantities. even with triax producing them, they're still extremely expensive. there is absolutely nothing to support the idea that the glitter boy is easy to produce once you know the secrets. triax added a dinky little shoulder laser to the suit and started producing it... and what impact did that have on the price, now that a new manufacturer arrived on the scene with incredible manufacturing capabilities? it more than doubled.

arguably, the only reason glitter boys cost such a comparatively low amount is that they were all salvaged, and thus there was no production cost. when you put a production cost into the mix, the value went from 25 million to 60 million.

Triax did a great deal more than that, their version included mini-missiles and a few other features at the cost of some MDC. Going by what Free Quebec says the main issue is the power core for the Glitter Boy, THAT was the hardest thing to produce not the Chromium Armor. Their Trade Agreement with Triax included thousands of power cores for the Glitter Boys they'd stockpiled but couldn't produce power cores for at the same time.

[Pepsi Jedi]

That generally requires that they did not deploy an entire GB legion and or that you significantly outnumber the side deploying GBs. But one or even two on one the GB will mop the floor with most opposition. The same argument you are making against the GB about burning them down (or there weapon) by a swarm can be done to most tanks and even the Samas rail gun can have this done.

Pretty much a moot point as there's only one nation that 'has' glitter boy legions. Unless you're fighting FQ you're not going to find a legion of GB.

As for one on one, the GB is nice but hardly top of the heap. Any PA with missiles will likewise shred the GB pretty fast. The half damage from lasers doesn't stop them. Target the boom gun. Then the rest is just mop up. Even the write up for the GB in the book says they don't stand a chance against a pair of Samus.

Sorry but you can not do called shot with missiles not even mini-missiles they always hit the main body. A GB does stand a perty good chance against a pair of Samas.
If you want to compare resources mini missiles are lot more expensive than boom gun rounds.

Alot more common and alot cheaper than the entire glitterboy.

As for the pair of samus. *Shrugs* I was just literally quoting the book(Kevin) under the glitter boy entry when it addresses this exact thing. Read it yesterday when I looked up the GB to check the MDC on the gun.

[Pepsi Jedi]

glitter boy legions only get to face 1:1 odds if they're up against an enemy with drastically fewer resources. at which point, you could have substantially better than 1:1 odds if you were using just about any other type of war machine, because all signs point to glitter boys being extremely difficult to make compared to just about anything else.

Difficult because not every place can make them do to the technology required in there construction. But as the people that are known to make them can crank them out the key is having the factories able to build them.

But this rant is really off subject. So I am done.

No they're still hard to make even for those that know how. FQ was just doing so in secret for a while before they rolled them out.

Traix can make them but only make a few, not because they suck, but because they're expensive and hard to make.

Again, there's only one place on earth with "legions' of GB's, and they do deploy them with backup to minimalize the extreme limitations of the GB units.

Stay out of north east Canada and you don't need to worry about Glitter Boy Legions.

[Killer Cyborg]

In order to literally quote the book, one must actually quote the book.

[Pepsi Jedi]

In order to literally quote the book, one must actually quote the book.

Page 73/74 RUE

"The armor is no match for a pair of SAMUS...."

Last sentence on 73 and wrapping over and continuing on. It goes on to say other fast moving opponents, concealed attackers using hit and run tactics and can be immobilized, slowed and damaged by magic spells.

[ShadowLogan]

Again, there's only one place on earth with "legions' of GB's, and they do deploy them with backup to minimalize the extreme limitations of the GB units.

I'm not sure about that. Really anyone that uses GBs are going to deploy them with backup to minimialize the limitations.
FQ is the only place on North America that qualifies as having "legions", but other places do have their own glitterboys and variants though weather they qualify as "legions" is of course debatable:
-NGR does via FQ. They even have variants
-Japan, has variants to. Off hand I don't recall how much they depend on them, but they do use them and deploy them with necessary backup (some are gb variants)
-South America's Silver Republics have them to
-IINM even the New Navy has them, though they definitely don't qualify as having "legions".

[Nightmask]

Again, there's only one place on earth with "legions' of GB's, and they do deploy them with backup to minimalize the extreme limitations of the GB units.

I'm not sure about that. Really anyone that uses GBs are going to deploy them with backup to minimialize the limitations.
FQ is the only place on North America that qualifies as having "legions", but other places do have their own glitterboys and variants though weather they qualify as "legions" is of course debatable:
-NGR does via FQ. They even have variants
-Japan, has variants to. Off hand I don't recall how much they depend on them, but they do use them and deploy them with necessary backup (some are gb variants)
-South America's Silver Republics have them to
-IINM even the New Navy has them, though they definitely don't qualify as having "legions".

Japan would definitely have legions of Glitter Boys as would Triax, not sure about South America but given they have variants they've developed they must have manufacturing capabilities for them so someone likely has a legion or two of them.

[Tor]

you will quickly destroy the hearing of your own troops permanently if you regularly position them near a glitter boy in combat. and it has some really nasty penalties that it inflicts, too, on people near the boom gun itself, so even before you permanently destroy their hearing, any glitter boy you place with your regular troops either doesn't ever shoot, or it causes major problems for everyone nearby, including your own soldiers.

I always wondered... most DeadBoys wear environmental armor with communications systems in the helmet and all that... it's confusing why they could not just easily opt to noise-cancel whenever they know the GBs will be shooting, and communicate solely via radio which could bypass it.

What Shark quoted says that even those in PA are affected... it's pretty confusing. I really don't get why PA in particular would be unable to just shut off outside noise.

I think a lot of the time people in enviroBA/powerA would want to hear surrounding noise, so a surprise shot would catch them off guard, but if it was allies firing, a sergeant could just be all "Glitter-Boys, prepare to fire, infantry, shut your ears, receive only radio communication until I tell you otherwise, glitterboys, ready, aim, fire!"

any benefit they might gain from using glitter boys could be done cheaper and better by having more of some other type of war machine.

I'm not so sure on a per-machine basis, but spreading the money around allows them to outfit bigger numbers. Based on the going slave rates Atlantis charges, human life is pretty cheap.

minor side note, but... i don't think you can aimed shot a burst, which means you can't called shot a burst (at the very least, you can't in RUE... you might be able to in RMB, not sure?). an infantry squad will still take out a boom gun fairly quickly if they focus fire it, just not with bursts.

True, per called shots being single shots only 1 grenade at a time could be called at it...

BUT since grenades are area-effect weapons, so long as the blast radius of the grenades is greater than ~half the height of the GB, the gun should be caught in the explosion and take half of the damage the main body does.

Meaning that a burst of 2 nades would do as much damage as a called shot with 1 to the BG (and strike more easily) and a burst of 3 or more would do more per attack.

Of course some grenades (like that pistol based on the NGR model) lack a good enough radius to hit the BG when we assume they're on the main body (I don't think a 3ft radius would be enough) but frags and even those 6ft radius nades should be adequate.

you can not do called shot with missiles not even mini-missiles

Wrong. In HU for example you need to do a called shot to hit missiles and it says you can use missiles to shoot down missiles, ergo you can do called shots with them.

In Rifts there are 2 PAs (the Glitter-Boy Killer and the Super Trooper) who are described as using mini-missiles to destroy a boom gun or blow up the arm or leg of a robot.

In the very least it must be possible to do a called shot using a single unguided mini-missile. At least that concession must be made.

If there are arguments to be had about missiles not being callable, it is to be had about volleys (which are almost synonymous with bursts, thus unable to do called shots) or with guided/smart missiles (which may auto-target main bodies and be possibly uncallable)

Page 73/74 RUE "The armor is no match for a pair of SAMUS...."

It's all about context. Perhaps they are talking about racing. SAMAS can fly faster than GBs can run, so in a race, the GB is no match for them. Not necessarily 'who will win a battle'.

[flatline]

Tor, consider what would happen if we played as you suggest:

A dragon doesn't have MDC called out by body part, so if you hit it with a grenade, it would take X damage.

A power armor with 11 hit locations would take X damage to the main body and then 1/2 * X to the other 10 hit locations for a total of 6X damage.

--flatline

[Pepsi Jedi]

Again, there's only one place on earth with "legions' of GB's, and they do deploy them with backup to minimalize the extreme limitations of the GB units.

I'm not sure about that. Really anyone that uses GBs are going to deploy them with backup to minimialize the limitations.
FQ is the only place on North America that qualifies as having "legions", but other places do have their own glitterboys and variants though weather they qualify as "legions" is of course debatable:
-NGR does via FQ. They even have variants
-Japan, has variants to. Off hand I don't recall how much they depend on them, but they do use them and deploy them with necessary backup (some are gb variants)
-South America's Silver Republics have them to
-IINM even the New Navy has them, though they definitely don't qualify as having "legions".

Japan would definitely have legions of Glitter Boys as would Triax, not sure about South America but given they have variants they've developed they must have manufacturing capabilities for them so someone likely has a legion or two of them.

No. Some other places have the ability to make glitter boys. No other nation other than FB deploys legions of them. Having them as one of 20 different power armor/robot vehicle options doesn't mean they have legions of the things. Legions are defined as 3,000 to 6,000, or 'A vast host, multitude, or number of people or things," or 'a great number'.

FQ is the only place that has legions of GB. The statement about deplying them with back up to minimalize their weaknesses was a seperate thought in the compound sentence after the "And".

1) There's only one place on earth with "legions" of glitterboys. (FQ)
and
2) They deploy them with the back up.

[Tor]

If the GM wants to know the MDC-per-part for a dragon they can house-rule it or there might be a guideline somewhere I've forgotten.

HU2p has percentage guidelines for allocating damage capacity to robots which could be used:
pg202: 25% for legs (called shots are minus 3 if moving)
pg204: 10% for arms (no penalty listed)
pg205: 10% for head (called shots are -3)

Or they could opt to be more generous since in a lot of armor the helmet can have half the MDC of the main body in some cases.

The 'total' damage an AoE weapon does is a non-issue here. Yes, a frag grenade that does a mere 10MD and half (5 MD) to a radius will do a total of 5 000 MD if you fire it into a orgied mass of a thousand bundled-together Faerie folk, and that makes it all the more impressive, but objecting to that reality doesn't actually exhibit any problems with it.

Dragons are magically-unified metamorphers anyway, so I'm not concerned with them absorbing damage differently than power armor.

[Killer Cyborg]

You can't make Called Shots with a blast radius.
A Called Shot is required to hit anything other than the Main Body.
Therefore, a blast radius cannot hit anything other than the Main Body.

[Tiree]

You can't make Called Shots with a blast radius.
A Called Shot is required to hit anything other than the Main Body.
Therefore, a blast radius cannot hit anything other than the Main Body.

Everything in these three statements I agree with.
KC I think you summed up the points very well.

[flatline]

Okay, if we're talking about glitterboys now, what are the inputs to the FQ glitterboy factory? Anything worth hijacking?

--flatline

[eliakon]

Okay, if we're talking about glitterboys now, what are the inputs to the FQ glitterboy factory? Anything worth hijacking?

--flatline

Chromium

[Blue_Lion]

Tor, that you say HU says you can do called shots is in direct conflict with the rules written in RUE. So when two rules are in direct conflict the order of priority is system, then newest printing. RUE is the rifts setting (and newer) so it has priority and a contradiction in HU is not valid a valid rule in rifts. Remember the whole missiles always hit the main body thing?

[eliakon]

Lets not hijack this thread into the 'called shots missile' thread. That thread was locked for a reason, so lets not go there shall we?

[Blue_Lion]

Sorry, will try to keep it on topic.

So how long do people think it takes the CS to totally re-outfit there whole standing army. That seams more relevant to CS factories than gliter boys.

[eliakon]

Sorry, will try to keep it on topic.

So how long do people think it takes the CS to totally re-outfit there whole standing army. That seams more relevant to CS factories than gliter boys.

Hrmmm.
In the RMB they mention phasing in a new rifle I believe....
by 109 PA they have gone fully New Model Army....
if we say 104 PA to 109 PA...that's 5 years to go from starting to phase in new stuff to finishing a new wave....
(These numbers are rough and going from memory....but they seem like a place to start)

[Brayon]

Sorry, will try to keep it on topic.

So how long do people think it takes the CS to totally re-outfit there whole standing army. That seams more relevant to CS factories than gliter boys.

Extrapolating from the Text in CWC, and SoT Series, it took them roughly 4 years (101 P.A. to 105 P.A.) to be able to field enough personnel for the armies in the war. Judging based on that, sometime around 113 P.A. they should have enough to take on the Federation.

Just my personal opinion based on the text from those books.

[Tor]

Lets not hijack this thread into the 'called shots missile' thread. That thread was locked for a reason, so lets not go there shall we?

I agree we should not hijack this thread too much with that argument. Which was why Blue Lion and KC should not be introducing claims like that into this thread. Any time they insist on doing that, I will interject to 'teach the controversy' and remind people of the GBK/Super-Trooper at least once. But after that 1claim/1rebuttal exchange I think we it ought to be dropped, so no arguing back against me.

Unless we are actually allowed to resolve that argument, I guess we should try to mutually avoid claiming missiles can or can not do called shots. Or perhaps a more neutral "you may or may not be able to do called shots depending on the GM's judgment" stance which I think we can all agree is true, as there is no clear RAW-canon we can seem to agree on.

Although there is theoretically a 'reason for everything' as no clear reason was given (just a vague sense of non-productivity) for locking that thread so I have trouble seeing it as a good reason. Considering how popular missiles are in Rifts, this thing which dictates their usefulness is bound to bleed into evaluating things like the ease of disabling GlitterBoys.

how long do people think it takes the CS to totally re-outfit there whole standing army.

This comes down to how much is being replaced and how hard to make the replacements are, hard to ballpark that even if we know the time it took to refit the CWC stuff. Especially since there might be a drop in raw material cost (perhaps some creative Vanguard Techno-Wizards helping CS from the shadows) or factory terrorism to increase or decrease production rates.

*wonders if Psi-Hounds can smell the results of Create Steel and how much of the CS is built on Vanguard Conjurers and TWs creating steel for the CS.

[Blue_Lion]

Lets not hijack this thread into the 'called shots missile' thread. That thread was locked for a reason, so lets not go there shall we?

I agree we should not hijack this thread too much with that argument. Which was why Blue Lion and KC should not be introducing claims like that into this thread. Any time they insist on doing that, I will interject to 'teach the controversy' and remind people of the GBK/Super-Trooper at least once. But after that 1claim/1rebuttal exchange I think we it ought to be dropped, so no arguing back against me.

Unless we are actually allowed to resolve that argument, I guess we should try to mutually avoid claiming missiles can or can not do called shots. Or perhaps a more neutral "you may or may not be able to do called shots depending on the GM's judgment" stance which I think we can all agree is true, as there is no clear RAW-canon we can seem to agree on.

Although there is theoretically a 'reason for everything' as no clear reason was given (just a vague sense of non-productivity) for locking that thread so I have trouble seeing it as a good reason. Considering how popular missiles are in Rifts, this thing which dictates their usefulness is bound to bleed into evaluating things like the ease of disabling GlitterBoys.

how long do people think it takes the CS to totally re-outfit there whole standing army.

This comes down to how much is being replaced and how hard to make the replacements are, hard to ballpark that even if we know the time it took to refit the CWC stuff. Especially since there might be a drop in raw material cost (perhaps some creative Vanguard Techno-Wizards helping CS from the shadows) or factory terrorism to increase or decrease production rates.

*wonders if Psi-Hounds can smell the results of Create Steel and how much of the CS is built on Vanguard Conjurers and TWs creating steel for the CS.

First the question was to totally re-outfit that means every peace of gear is being placed, and I was asking for what people thaght because the books do not give a clear issue.

(By the way nice cheep parting shot in your reply on not bringing topic in here. The tread was locked because nothing was being presented that was new, that is the reason I stopped posting in it. It because a circle argument that was making no head way. But if you have something that is truly new that debunks the blanket note on missiles you could present it to me in a PM.)

[ShadowLogan]

Again, there's only one place on earth with "legions' of GB's, and they do deploy them with backup to minimalize the extreme limitations of the GB units.

I'm not sure about that. Really anyone that uses GBs are going to deploy them with backup to minimialize the limitations.
FQ is the only place on North America that qualifies as having "legions", but other places do have their own glitterboys and variants though weather they qualify as "legions" is of course debatable:
-NGR does via FQ. They even have variants
-Japan, has variants to. Off hand I don't recall how much they depend on them, but they do use them and deploy them with necessary backup (some are gb variants)
-South America's Silver Republics have them to
-IINM even the New Navy has them, though they definitely don't qualify as having "legions".

Japan would definitely have legions of Glitter Boys as would Triax, not sure about South America but given they have variants they've developed they must have manufacturing capabilities for them so someone likely has a legion or two of them.

No. Some other places have the ability to make glitter boys. No other nation other than FB deploys legions of them. Having them as one of 20 different power armor/robot vehicle options doesn't mean they have legions of the things. Legions are defined as 3,000 to 6,000, or 'A vast host, multitude, or number of people or things," or 'a great number'.

FQ is the only place that has legions of GB. The statement about deplying them with back up to minimalize their weaknesses was a seperate thought in the compound sentence after the "And".

1) There's only one place on earth with "legions" of glitterboys. (FQ)
and
2) They deploy them with the back up.

Actually per:
-FQ's WB they only have ~15,000 assorted Glitterboys (pg77) in their Legions
-Japan (Rep. of) per the Japan WB (pg136) has 12,000 G10, 8400 G10A1, and 5000 G10A2 models, for a grand total of 25,400 assorted Glitterboys.
-I didn't check Triax (given two WBs, one of which I don't own), nor did I check SA2 (another hot spot for GB variants), Underseas (New Navy has some), or MiO for numbers for their users if it was even mentioned.

Yes that's right RoJ has more Glitterboys than FQ per the books. So it is possible for RoJ to deploy "legions". Now FQ is the only place in NA with the capacity, but it isn't the only place in the world with the capacity to deploy "legions" of glitterboys (and would play second fiddle to the RoJ).

[Nightmask]

Again, there's only one place on earth with "legions' of GB's, and they do deploy them with backup to minimalize the extreme limitations of the GB units.

I'm not sure about that. Really anyone that uses GBs are going to deploy them with backup to minimialize the limitations.
FQ is the only place on North America that qualifies as having "legions", but other places do have their own glitterboys and variants though weather they qualify as "legions" is of course debatable:
-NGR does via FQ. They even have variants
-Japan, has variants to. Off hand I don't recall how much they depend on them, but they do use them and deploy them with necessary backup (some are gb variants)
-South America's Silver Republics have them to
-IINM even the New Navy has them, though they definitely don't qualify as having "legions".

Japan would definitely have legions of Glitter Boys as would Triax, not sure about South America but given they have variants they've developed they must have manufacturing capabilities for them so someone likely has a legion or two of them.

No. Some other places have the ability to make glitter boys. No other nation other than FB deploys legions of them. Having them as one of 20 different power armor/robot vehicle options doesn't mean they have legions of the things. Legions are defined as 3,000 to 6,000, or 'A vast host, multitude, or number of people or things," or 'a great number'.

FQ is the only place that has legions of GB. The statement about deplying them with back up to minimalize their weaknesses was a seperate thought in the compound sentence after the "And".

1) There's only one place on earth with "legions" of glitterboys. (FQ)
and
2) They deploy them with the back up.

Actually per:
-FQ's WB they only have ~15,000 assorted Glitterboys (pg77) in their Legions
-Japan (Rep. of) per the Japan WB (pg136) has 12,000 G10, 8400 G10A1, and 5000 G10A2 models, for a grand total of 25,400 assorted Glitterboys.
-I didn't check Triax (given two WBs, one of which I don't own), nor did I check SA2 (another hot spot for GB variants), Underseas (New Navy has some), or MiO for numbers for their users if it was even mentioned.

Yes that's right RoJ has more Glitterboys than FQ per the books. So it is possible for RoJ to deploy "legions". Now FQ is the only place in NA with the capacity, but it isn't the only place in the world with the capacity to deploy "legions" of glitterboys (and would play second fiddle to the RoJ).

If you look at the details of Free Quebec's trade deal with Triax they acquired thousands of Glitter Boys from them on top of what they'd already produced and it mentions that it was in addition to what Triax already produces and caused them no problems on top of what they already produce so Triax can certainly manage legions of Glitter Boys but likely doesn't simply because they use mixed troops rather than doing entire military units of just Glitter Boys not because they can't. Japan on the other hand seems to favor primarily Glitter Boys and cyborg troops.

[Shark_Force]

eh... i'm pretty sure the trade deal got them a whopping 100 glitter boys. not thousands. just 100. at least initially... it's possible they bought more later on, but the original trade deal was not for a huge amount of glitter boys.

[Nightmask]

eh... i'm pretty sure the trade deal got them a whopping 100 glitter boys. not thousands. just 100. at least initially... it's possible they bought more later on, but the original trade deal was not for a huge amount of glitter boys.

Haven't got my FQ book handy but going by the original Triax book it does say they only had 144 of the regular GB in the trade agreement as well as 60 of the new ones shortly afterwords. But that likely got revised with the FQ book (much like it expanded to note the agreement including thousands of power cores so they could activate their stockpile that couldn't be used as they hadn't enough of those to go around).

Meanwhile under Glitter Forces, page 76 in Rifts: Japan regarding Glitter Boy use it notes that their widespread use of Glitter Boys far surpasses anyone else in the world (unsurprising given they were a rifted Pre-Rifts era high technology city that started with Glitter Boy technology and had been producing them without the need for secrecy and restrictions like Quebec labored under) so they're definitely fielding legions of Glitter Boys.

[ShadowLogan]

eh... i'm pretty sure the trade deal got them a whopping 100 glitter boys. not thousands. just 100. at least initially... it's possible they bought more later on, but the original trade deal was not for a huge amount of glitter boys.

Pg20 of WB5: 144 G10 and 60 T-550 of the Glitterboy types by the fall/end of year of 104PA. Plus FQ has the complete plans for producing the T-550 (pg45) and can do so w/n 3-4 years as part of the trade agreement.

NGR's stated inventory of the T-550 Glitterboy (pg45)
64 Current
by end of 104PA, should increase x6 (384)
by the end of 105PA, should increase x20 (1,280 or 7,680 depending on how you figure it)

That means depending on when the modifiers take effect (is x6 & x20 for the "current" or is it cumulative with x6, and the x20 off of that). Means NGR military will have between 1,280 and 7,680 T-550 Glitterboys by the end of 105PA, and doesn't even consider the new glitterboy variants Triax is revealed to have in Triax2 (set later). So in 1 year, conservatively speaking Triax can produce 894 T-550 (104 PA end to 105 PA end), which if that rate is maintained could allow them to field (low end of the scale) legions of glitterboys in less than 10years easily. I don't own Triax2, and its been awhile since I reviewed a friend's copy, so I don't know if they provided any production numbers, but we know they started producing additional GB variants adding to the size of the overall legions.

[grandmaster z0b]

Now this is a high tech setting, so I totally get that their fabrication techniques can be more space efficient than what we have today, but unless you're willing to go with the "they have nanotechnology, so raw materials go into a vat of gray goo and finished skelebots come out" idea*, the required infrastructure to make anything takes a lot of space. And when I think of all the things that the CS manufactures, I start to wonder how much of that could really fit into the bottom of a fortress city.

* - nanotechnology doesn't work that way, but that's a topic for a different thread.

This is a good point, and I don't think that the CS has a vat of grey goo.

However they may have more realistic nano-tech that helps with both mining raw materials and manufacturing.

For example a recycling machine that extracts various compounds and elements from whatever you throw in. So digging through the compressed remains of old cities or old rubbish dumps would be very profitable. First it removes petrochemicals, polymers and plastics; then it extracts the various metallic and rare earth elements. How exactly it does this I don't know but it's a lot more plausible than a vat of grey goo, all it does is recycle.

So in my games rubbish mining is a very worthwhile trade, our society is so wasteful that finding a buried rubbish dump would be a bonanza. Even if all you could extract is aluminium, tin, copper, steel and gold it would be worth it. Pre-Rifts cities that have been flattened and buried would also be a great source for raw materials.

On the manufacturing side, I assume they have nano-tech that can create nano-materials. Not a grey goo that can spit out a skelebot but they can at least make graphene and nano-tube type materials on mass. This is where MDC materials come from, in some ways it would not be that different to current ceramic armors but instead of ceramics mixed with carbon fiber or fiberglass it would be mixed with nano-tubes or something.

[NMI]

Locked before it degrades any further.