Minion War: Where are the angels?

[cornholioprime]

My apologies if this has been asked before. I haven't p&p rpg'd in years but still buy the Rifts books because I like the ideas, artwork, etc... Picked up Megaverse in Flames and I keep finding myself asking the same question. Where are the angels? Well, seraphim or whatever else they are called. Maybe I missed the section about it in other books like Breakout.

If the infernal supernatural have their own dimensions then shouldn't there be some angelic supernatural dimensions too? I imagine at least one of them would take a dim enough view on the Minion War that they decide to make their own moves too. Of course they might take as dismissive a view of mortals as the infernal do so actually make the conflict even more destructive. I am surprised they haven't made a larger appearance yet.

Your thoughts?

If I'm just missing it could someone point me to the right book?

The Angelic Host, contrary to what you might think due to their names borrowed from Christian theology, aren't actually the "designated enemies" of anybody except, perhaps, The Old Ones themselves.

And as momentous as The Minion War is to regular mortal beings, in the vastness of the Megaverse entire, they probably don't warrant the attention of the Angels, at least not enough for them to gather and fight the demonic minions as one organized entity. Individual angels battling individual demons/deevils, perhaps.

Whoever their Boss is, he (He? She? They?) probably doesn't think that this event is all that dire a concern, either, since he hasn't yet deigned to send them into the battle wholesale.

[Zer0 Kay]

My apologies if this has been asked before. I haven't p&p rpg'd in years but still buy the Rifts books because I like the ideas, artwork, etc... Picked up Megaverse in Flames and I keep finding myself asking the same question. Where are the angels? Well, seraphim or whatever else they are called. Maybe I missed the section about it in other books like Breakout.

If the infernal supernatural have their own dimensions then shouldn't there be some angelic supernatural dimensions too? I imagine at least one of them would take a dim enough view on the Minion War that they decide to make their own moves too. Of course they might take as dismissive a view of mortals as the infernal do so actually make the conflict even more destructive. I am surprised they haven't made a larger appearance yet.

Your thoughts?

If I'm just missing it could someone point me to the right book?

The Angelic Host, contrary to what you might think due to their names borrowed from Christian theology, aren't actually the "designated enemies" of anybody except, perhaps, The Old Ones themselves.

And as momentous as The Minion War is to regular mortal beings, in the vastness of the Megaverse entire, they probably don't warrant the attention of the Angels, at least not enough for them to gather and fight the demonic minions as one organized entity. Individual angels battling individual demons/deevils, perhaps.

Whoever their Boss is, he (He? She? They?) probably doesn't think that this event is all that dire a concern, either, since he hasn't yet deigned to send them into the battle wholesale.

Maybe he is just letting them kill each other first?

[eliakon]

My apologies if this has been asked before. I haven't p&p rpg'd in years but still buy the Rifts books because I like the ideas, artwork, etc... Picked up Megaverse in Flames and I keep finding myself asking the same question. Where are the angels? Well, seraphim or whatever else they are called. Maybe I missed the section about it in other books like Breakout.

If the infernal supernatural have their own dimensions then shouldn't there be some angelic supernatural dimensions too? I imagine at least one of them would take a dim enough view on the Minion War that they decide to make their own moves too. Of course they might take as dismissive a view of mortals as the infernal do so actually make the conflict even more destructive. I am surprised they haven't made a larger appearance yet.

Your thoughts?

If I'm just missing it could someone point me to the right book?

The Angelic Host, contrary to what you might think due to their names borrowed from Christian theology, aren't actually the "designated enemies" of anybody except, perhaps, The Old Ones themselves.

And as momentous as The Minion War is to regular mortal beings, in the vastness of the Megaverse entire, they probably don't warrant the attention of the Angels, at least not enough for them to gather and fight the demonic minions as one organized entity. Individual angels battling individual demons/deevils, perhaps.

Whoever their Boss is, he (He? She? They?) probably doesn't think that this event is all that dire a concern, either, since he hasn't yet deigned to send them into the battle wholesale.

Maybe he is just letting them kill each other first?

More or less....I mean cosmically what does it MATTER? Other than a couple worlds that could get conquered (like HU earth...where they ARE active) its not really much of a War of Light and Dark thing and more of yet another round of Evil vs Evil......

[Zamion138]

I just want archie to drop T.H.O.R.S on em

Okay what does THORS stand for? I figure your talking Hypervelocity Rod Bundles (HRB), Rod of God (RoG), Rod from God (RfG) delivered by project Thor.

Ill have to dig its what they call them in shadowrun but its been a bit, its the orbital luanched telephone pole sized thing, think they say its tungsten.

My apologies if this has been asked before. I haven't p&p rpg'd in years but still buy the Rifts books because I like the ideas, artwork, etc... Picked up Megaverse in Flames and I keep finding myself asking the same question. Where are the angels? Well, seraphim or whatever else they are called. Maybe I missed the section about it in other books like Breakout.

If the infernal supernatural have their own dimensions then shouldn't there be some angelic supernatural dimensions too? I imagine at least one of them would take a dim enough view on the Minion War that they decide to make their own moves too. Of course they might take as dismissive a view of mortals as the infernal do so actually make the conflict even more destructive. I am surprised they haven't made a larger appearance yet.

Your thoughts?

If I'm just missing it could someone point me to the right book?

The Angelic Host, contrary to what you might think due to their names borrowed from Christian theology, aren't actually the "designated enemies" of anybody except, perhaps, The Old Ones themselves.

And as momentous as The Minion War is to regular mortal beings, in the vastness of the Megaverse entire, they probably don't warrant the attention of the Angels, at least not enough for them to gather and fight the demonic minions as one organized entity. Individual angels battling individual demons/deevils, perhaps.

Whoever their Boss is, he (He? She? They?) probably doesn't think that this event is all that dire a concern, either, since he hasn't yet deigned to send them into the battle wholesale.

Maybe he is just letting them kill each other first?

More or less....I mean cosmically what does it MATTER? Other than a couple worlds that could get conquered (like HU earth...where they ARE active) its not really much of a War of Light and Dark thing and more of yet another round of Evil vs Evil......

But rifts earth does matter its an important megeversal hub and one of the most active magic sites supposively. Also it has a remarkable number of gods and AI's for such a tiny place. Rifts earth matters in the grand scheme of things, probably less so than palladium since no old ones are buried here but its deffintly a power point and rare in the scheme of things.

[eliakon]

I just want archie to drop T.H.O.R.S on em

Okay what does THORS stand for? I figure your talking Hypervelocity Rod Bundles (HRB), Rod of God (RoG), Rod from God (RfG) delivered by project Thor.

Ill have to dig its what they call them in shadowrun but its been a bit, its the orbital luanched telephone pole sized thing, think they say its tungsten.

My apologies if this has been asked before. I haven't p&p rpg'd in years but still buy the Rifts books because I like the ideas, artwork, etc... Picked up Megaverse in Flames and I keep finding myself asking the same question. Where are the angels? Well, seraphim or whatever else they are called. Maybe I missed the section about it in other books like Breakout.

If the infernal supernatural have their own dimensions then shouldn't there be some angelic supernatural dimensions too? I imagine at least one of them would take a dim enough view on the Minion War that they decide to make their own moves too. Of course they might take as dismissive a view of mortals as the infernal do so actually make the conflict even more destructive. I am surprised they haven't made a larger appearance yet.

Your thoughts?

If I'm just missing it could someone point me to the right book?

The Angelic Host, contrary to what you might think due to their names borrowed from Christian theology, aren't actually the "designated enemies" of anybody except, perhaps, The Old Ones themselves.

And as momentous as The Minion War is to regular mortal beings, in the vastness of the Megaverse entire, they probably don't warrant the attention of the Angels, at least not enough for them to gather and fight the demonic minions as one organized entity. Individual angels battling individual demons/deevils, perhaps.

Whoever their Boss is, he (He? She? They?) probably doesn't think that this event is all that dire a concern, either, since he hasn't yet deigned to send them into the battle wholesale.

Maybe he is just letting them kill each other first?

More or less....I mean cosmically what does it MATTER? Other than a couple worlds that could get conquered (like HU earth...where they ARE active) its not really much of a War of Light and Dark thing and more of yet another round of Evil vs Evil......

But rifts earth does matter its an important megeversal hub and one of the most active magic sites supposively. Also it has a remarkable number of gods and AI's for such a tiny place. Rifts earth matters in the grand scheme of things, probably less so than palladium since no old ones are buried here but its deffintly a power point and rare in the scheme of things.

Yah, but like I said...it doesn't really matter since its not in danger of being conquered. Its just too high a profile place for anyone to get a lock on...so why spend their limited resources on it. They can count on, for instance, the Splugorth to prevent the conquest of Rifts Earth...but they can't count on the same for planet Shmoo in the Thunderhead Galaxy, or on Hero's Unlimited Earth, or.....

[Zamion138]

I see your point.
Maybe if they got a 51% take over it would change their view.
Or angels hate us, its the only two plausible reasons......we did make a movie with ben aflack as an angel I see their point of view.

[Nightmask]

I'm a bit baffled that some would think a demonic war of conquest breaking out on an entire planet wouldn't qualify as important to the ostensibly good forces in opposition to them. 'Eh it's not that important in the scheme of things let's just stay out of it' isn't the mindset of good; maybe to an amoral politician yes but not to actual good. If you're letting world after world fall to evil you REALLY aren't on the side of good and it's certainly not going to be to your benefit long-term since you're basically handing the multiverse over to your enemies who you certainly aren't going to have a better chance to eventually defeat by letting them grow infinitely stronger and more diverse than yourself.

[Zamion138]

Well look at from the angels point of view. Is it amoral to have the splugorth do the fighting for them? Or to let the CS bleed for the cuase? They have other battles as well and other horrors to face and keep locked away, we really dont know how many of them there are left. And if they can be counted even by trinstine who was a ultra high tier scholar that doesnt mean there are masses and masses of angels left.
Good does what it can but they do have a higher calling than demons to face with keeping the old ones asleep and guarded.

[HWalsh]

Well look at from the angels point of view. Is it amoral to have the splugorth do the fighting for them? Or to let the CS bleed for the cuase? They have other battles as well and other horrors to face and keep locked away, we really dont know how many of them there are left. And if they can be counted even by trinstine who was a ultra high tier scholar that doesnt mean there are masses and masses of angels left.
Good does what it can but they do have a higher calling than demons to face with keeping the old ones asleep and guarded.

That goes against the entire point of Angels.

Angels are the natural predator of Demons.

Good should never be taking the "lesser of two evils" here and that is something Palladium needs to address.

If they want to do a demon war right, then sooner or later, the forces of Heaven have to get involved and have to do something to show exactly how strong they are. Evil always gets its chance to shine... But then good has to arrive and lay the smack down.

Otherwise it is a poor narrative.

Personally?

If I were Palladium I'd answer it like this:

The demons have some kind of artifact that is keeping the angels at bay. In the final minutes of the war someone manages to destroy that artifact. When they do, the Angels sweep in, and the Demons and Demon Lords are slaughtered en-masse. The demon forces start collapsing. Suddenly, an even greater terror grips the demons, anyone slain by the Angels doesn't get to come back, they are dead, permanently and completely, consigned to oblivion.

At the end of the war the Demons are so weakened they can never again attempt such an attack... It is revealed all along that it was all a part of the Angel's plan. That they subtly manipulated events so that the Demons would be able to be destroyed. As such the divine balance of the universe is restored.

[Tor]

It is going to be interesting if the demons/devils wind up "winning" enough to provoke doomsday responses from major powers. We know the CS has city buster nukes and I have to assume triax has some for the same reasons.

Why should I think this response will work? Surely the Swallowing Rift ley-line spell is known by enough people on either side to counter this.

How willing will demons/devils be to defend something that is that vulnerable to long range assaults that could be set to air burst well above any ability to defend or shoot down the demons/devils possess. Eventually if left alone long enough they could setup defenses like tolkeen had to fend off this kind of attack but until that time they are really vulnerable to long range bombardment.

Considering it is a 'pit' I'm sure they could just bunker down under the earth like the Xiticix do.

until the CS says heck with it and starts trying to flip nukes through the portals when they are open to detonate on the other side. Since the CS has no desire to control hell or hades and the gates would fall in a split second of the nuke detonating there is little risk for long term fallout/radiation while at the same time blowing the living hell out of any demonic/infernal forces in a hell pit staging area. How many times does that have to happen before the forces of the minion war to start getting really hesitant opening gigantic gaping targets into which you can insert nukes directly into their homes.

Obviously if the Hell Pit was compromised enough to let people just fire missiles through it, people aren't going to lurk right on the other side of them. They have means of inter-dimensional scouting.

dont you think the demons and devils will send in the space fleet?

From which staging point? It's not clear if they can actually make dimensional portals large enough to allow their larger ships to break through. I expect their space techniques would involve the use of Demon Knights since they are the most portable.

It may be difficult to attack space fortifications though due to the orbital colonies and kill-sats, even though I think the MiO stats need a boost to live up to their hype.

If were talking Biblically an angel is created not born and demons are only fallen angels. Now Nephilim are supposed to be the children of angels and women, it probably would work the same for demons except there is mythology for female demons while there is only reference of angels being male.

Palladium has deviated from the Abrahamic bibles on this, I wouldn't use it as much of a guideline.

I'm a bit baffled that some would think a demonic war of conquest breaking out on an entire planet wouldn't qualify as important to the ostensibly good forces in opposition to them.

Not being involve doesn't mean they think it isn't important, they may have limited resources.

'Eh it's not that important in the scheme of things let's just stay out of it' isn't the mindset of good; maybe to an amoral politician yes but not to actual good.

I disagree. Brethan kept Dweomer from coming to the defense of Tolkeen, and Lazlo also kept out of that. Neutrality in a conflict does not make an entity amoral. Someone can be good and think "I would rather risk my forces defending A instead of B" even if B is good.

If you're letting world after world fall to evil you REALLY aren't on the side of good

Actually you still can be. For all we know the Angels are defending mysterious astral heaven-realms where they evacuate innocents at risk of extermination or abuse in the conflict. They do not have to launch direct attacks against the 2 forces to be involved.

These guys for the most part disguise themselves as mortals and stuff, they don't tip their hats.

you're basically handing the multiverse over to your enemies who you certainly aren't going to have a better chance to eventually defeat by letting them grow infinitely stronger and more diverse than yourself.

Letting demons and dyvals kill each other off doesn't let them grow infinately stronger.

If they get involved, I imagine it might be to neutralize the lurking threat of unlimited Greater Demon growth potential from their new breed of undead.

Demonic Mortals and Demon Knights at least take some time and personal involvement to create and mold, the Undead are a virus and are in many ways more dangerous than vampires. I expect when this is over, they may be the new force on top of things and maybe then the Angels will decide who to strike against.

The angel's best interest is for a prolonged stalemate between demons and dyvals, where none triumphs too obviously, and they deplete each other. To keep them from abusing others as pawns and have them directly harm one another. They may be influencing this through co-operation with Thoth (although I wonder if their opinion would change if they knew he was their old enemy...)

That goes against the entire point of Angels. Angels are the natural predator of Demons.

Are you sure about that? Are you talking biblical angels or Palladium Books' version?

Good should never be taking the "lesser of two evils" here and that is something Palladium needs to address.

They aren't, they just aren't launching suicide attacks against 2 evil armies who are already depleting each other.

Better to be involved in minor ways to shape the conflict and pounce on the winner.

If they want to do a demon war right, then sooner or later, the forces of Heaven have to get involved and have to do something to show exactly how strong they are. Evil always gets its chance to shine... But then good has to arrive and lay the smack down. Otherwise it is a poor narrative.

Why not wait until they are manageable?

What makes you think the angels are even strong? Maybe the reason demon and dyvals have existed is because they outnumbered angels too greatly. Maybe this conflict will lead to a chance they were waiting for.

The demons have some kind of artifact that is keeping the angels at bay. In the final minutes of the war someone manages to destroy that artifact.

This is already likely: the Demons (and Dyvals) have enough Summoners among them to summon and then imprison angels.

If angels have a way back from death (perhaps Discorporate-Enlightenment) then imprisoning them would be a big way to keep them out.

At the end of the war the Demons are so weakened they can never again attempt such an attack... It is revealed all along that it was all a part of the Angel's plan. That they subtly manipulated events so that the Demons would be able to be destroyed. As such the divine balance of the universe is restored.

I'm all for the questionable-morality sneaky behind-the-scenes string-puller angels, like in Disgaea or Diablo.

[kaid]

To answer a couple of the points the hell pit has to be open to the sky it is 1000 feet in diameter minimum and 1000 feet deep. It cannot be enclosed in a building or hidden underground. Those are the minimum sizes and to allow bigger portals they can be expanded. They also have an area of influence 10 times the size of the hell pit.

Swallowing rift type spells would work but it would be a matter of setting the defenses up and this is something that would likely only be an issue if the rifts were left alone for a long period of time.

Hell pits have to be anchored at both sides. So its not something you are just opening in the middle of nowhere it takes a lot of work and effort and from what I can see in the mega verse in flames books it looks like they are using some central jump off points on hades/dyvaal that are having multiple rifts linked to them. These are big nexus staging areas for the demonic hordes and their supplies and weaponry. Even slipping one nuke through could potentially take out hundreds of thousands perhaps millions of minions.

[Zamion138]

Well look at from the angels point of view. Is it amoral to have the splugorth do the fighting for them? Or to let the CS bleed for the cuase? They have other battles as well and other horrors to face and keep locked away, we really dont know how many of them there are left. And if they can be counted even by trinstine who was a ultra high tier scholar that doesnt mean there are masses and masses of angels left.
Good does what it can but they do have a higher calling than demons to face with keeping the old ones asleep and guarded.

That goes against the entire point of Angels.

Angels are the natural predator of Demons.

Good should never be taking the "lesser of two evils" here and that is something Palladium needs to address.

If they want to do a demon war right, then sooner or later, the forces of Heaven have to get involved and have to do something to show exactly how strong they are. Evil always gets its chance to shine... But then good has to arrive and lay the smack down.

Otherwise it is a poor narrative.

Personally?

If I were Palladium I'd answer it like this:

The demons have some kind of artifact that is keeping the angels at bay. In the final minutes of the war someone manages to destroy that artifact. When they do, the Angels sweep in, and the Demons and Demon Lords are slaughtered en-masse. The demon forces start collapsing. Suddenly, an even greater terror grips the demons, anyone slain by the Angels doesn't get to come back, they are dead, permanently and completely, consigned to oblivion.

At the end of the war the Demons are so weakened they can never again attempt such an attack... It is revealed all along that it was all a part of the Angel's plan. That they subtly manipulated events so that the Demons would be able to be destroyed. As such the divine balance of the universe is restored.

Why should they not take a lesser of two evils? Where in the history of palladium gaming has this been shown? Or for that matter actual history, when in history has good taken a fully postive fully good stance?
You have an ideal that you think a fictional creation is to live up to but with no history of this happening or stated stance where good is pure and willing to loose to war to win the battle.

[Premier]

This subject was something that I brought up several times, and I must admit, I think you all have mentioned some of the same issues, concerns and valid points that surround this matter.

I too questioned my interpretation for the lack of angelic or powerful beings of purity & Light (ala “Good Guys”) involvement. I saw MIF as a magnet for such opposition to draw in more formidable opposition to the evil forces that are being so invasive to earth.

As a Freelance Artist and conceptualist, I envisioned all sorts of angelic beings, Holy demigods, Host, Avatars, Spiritual Armors and Weapons, abilities, etc., etc., that could pour forth to engage the evil hordes spilling into RIFTS Earth.

However, I think and blindly assume the strongest points that negate my expectations are as follows:

A: The sensitivity of the Angel/Host subject matter may change the tonality of the game from entertainment to theological debate and speculations that could alter the gaming atmosphere of the RPG. As mentioned, a player who was once having fun playing a selfish or evil character may find themselves feeling convicted or religiously challenged if angels aren’t depicted in the manner they see fit or interpret. For example, as a Christian who has studied Systemic (Scientific) Theology, it is biblically defined in the Abraham/Hebrewic format that the angels (i.e.: Host, Arch-angels, Seraphim, Cherubs, etc.) were created to serve and worship a Higher Will and not a will of their own. So any major act conducted by biblical Angels, particularly a Holy Legion of them would have to be ordered by The Higher Will which opens up the channels even further for what or what not would be instituted as an Act or Order from Higher Power, being Yahweh. If it is ordered then the outcome is already predetermined. Biblically speaking, there is no “equal" war between Good and Evil. There is simply the roles that the fallen(Evil) is playing out, but they too know the outcome and that it isn’t favorable against Higher Power. "Biblically" speaking there would not even be a war between the evil factions, they would all be under one evil force. Infusing this could easily instigate theological debates, turn away established Gamers who have a different belief or paradigm, or simply feel that infusing such sensitive subject matters into a RPG is going to far.

It’s a game designed for pure entertainment and imagination. Currently both demons and angels are considered dimensional beings, which is a broader and safer ideology that is accepted by a much broader general fanbase/target audience. Becoming more definitive on what constitutes true angels and other beings of light and what does not or how they should be conducted in a game can unintentionally offend certain circles of Gamers or cause unwanted arguments and heated debates which is the antithesis to the entertainment objective of the game. I have seen this happen with the subject matter of the Nephilim and the current debate as to the term Sons of God used in Genesis 6:2 when describing the "Sons of God" who took the "daughters of men" and made wives of them. One side view is that the Sons of God are actually men i.e.: the sons of Seth that preserve the covenant with God while the daughters of men refers to the progeny of Caine, the fallen who no longer keeps the covenant. Another view suggest that the term in this scripture refers to angels as likened to Job. This type of debate was not fruitful for the gaming experience. So even though there were all these imaginative ideas on what Nephilim could be devised and what powers they would have, the other side of the coin and respecting other Gamers beliefs and paradigms is also a major consideration.

B: Author personal taste: As a Freelancer Artist and Concept Developer, I can respect the ideas and creativity of the Contributing Writers and clearly understand that MIF is what it is because that is simply the vision and direction that the Writer and Kevin chose. Sometimes it is as simply as that.

C: Having such a powerful faction of good guys at the helm sort of puts the Player characters into the back seat, not even the passenger seat in the grand scheme of things. IMHO, Players want to feel and see that their hard work, actions, sacrifices and achievements or failures matter and enjoy seeing their gaming results impact the setting. You don’t want to have the Players feeling patronized or upstaged by more powerful characters. This doesn’t mean that there is not a need for powerful NPCs that are good, but it often takes a good GM to conduct the actions of such NPCs, which is not always an easy task. Certain antics that a Player group might tolerate or entertain might be crossing the line or intolerable by a pure good guy NPC. “ I don’t care that this demon is trying to atone, it is an accursed demon and its fate has already been chosen. Now move aside so that I can smite thee into the dark abyss where kismet awaits.”

D. Avoiding more publication delays, adding unforeseen segments into this publication could potentially add to the delays of this long awaited title that Gamers may or may not justify the wait for. The Minion War has been defined as these two forces of evil locked in a seething war and spilling across the Megaverse, I don't think there are many Gamers eager to see what Good Guys are involved. Adding all out open war between such factions as if the demons and devils wasn’t enough, would have to result in some tremendous amount of consequences that might usurp the MIF event and the setting as we know it.

These are my guesses from the hip sort of speak as to why we don’t see as much angelic activity. Details regarding the Summoners, Old Ones, numbers game, etc., simply solidify the logic as to why RIFTS Earth at the current state is not the Megaversal Armageddon Battleground Finale between the high orders.

So as much as I would love to see more angelic influences and champions of Light, even if in the sideline schemes and planing developments or other realm excursions to explain why they are not as vocal or active and prominent in the grand view against the evil hordes, I simply think that such source material is not as high a demand for RPG entertainment. Many Gamers enjoy contending with and destroying evil, but not so much when contending with condemning good guys or being bossed around and reprimanded for independent decision making, imho.

With that said, I would be all in for conjuring a sourcebook entailing Angelic like beings that seek to restore the good in the Megaverse, and to protect the pure of heart and the innocent that are predated by evil.

[Pepsi Jedi]

the impression i get of the spirits of light is that there aren't nearly as many of them as there are demons and deevils.. so presumably they'd have to be a lot more careful. probably working behind the scenes in the various places the demons/deevils are operating in, setting up local groups able to stand against them.

Yeah, this is what I remember and believe. I find it unfortunate that there seems to be such an inbalance between the amount of supernatural evil and supernatural good in the Megaverse.

Not trying to be funny in any way shape or form, but that's pretty standard isn't it? Evil is 'easy'. Being 'good' takes effort, work, dedication, conviction and loyalty. Much much harder. Just turning on the news... *shakes head*

That 'good' is much more rare, or rather "Evil" is much more prevalent, is.. dare I say... 'realistic'.

[Shark_Force]

it also makes particularly more sense in terms of supernatural beings.

as a rule, supernatural beings are typically stronger, tougher, longer-lived or even immortal, and frequently possess a variety of supernatural abilities ranging from special immunities to psionics or innate magical abilities to teleportation, etc.

the result is that even those mortals that live for a long time comparatively live about as long as fruit flies. it's hard to form a meaningful bond with something when in your way of thinking, they're not even going to be alive "tomorrow", and it doesn't help that you could probably kill them accidentally by sneezing at the wrong time or something like that.

it really isn't hard at all to imagine that such a creature would look at a human or other mortal d-bee and basically consider us to be inferior. any such being which does not have a very strong tendency towards preserving all life or similar could very easily think of our lives as being pretty insignificant; if we die today, rather than 20 or 40 or even 100 years from now, it's really not all that much sooner (in their perspective) than it would have happened anyways.

of course, that doesn't necessarily lend itself well to developing cruel tendencies (although millenia of boredom and a lack of new experiences might potentially lead that way). but it does lend a lot of plausibility to the idea that there are a lot more supernatural beings out there who torture humans for kicks than there are supernatural beings who protect humans.

[AzathothXy]

Like with Call of Cthulhu, the supernatural evil is more prevalent than the good, atleast that's how I always saw it. The only time in the books you see angels get involved, is in the Old Ones book. They arrive to stop a minor old one from breaking his bonds.

[HWalsh]

This subject was something that I brought up several times, and I must admit, I think you all have mentioned some of the same issues, concerns and valid points that surround this matter.

I too questioned my interpretation for the lack of angelic or powerful beings of purity & Light (ala “Good Guys”) involvement. I saw MIF as a magnet for such opposition to draw in more formidable opposition to the evil forces that are being so invasive to earth.

As a Freelance Artist and conceptualist, I envisioned all sorts of angelic beings, Holy demigods, Host, Avatars, Spiritual Armors and Weapons, abilities, etc., etc., that could pour forth to engage the evil hordes spilling into RIFTS Earth.

However, I think and blindly assume the strongest points that negate my expectations are as follows:

I do get where you are coming from here (heck in my own post I laid a lot of that same thing out... But...

A: The sensitivity of the Angel/Host subject matter may change the tonality of the game from entertainment to theological debate and speculations that could alter the gaming atmosphere of the RPG. As mentioned, a player who was once having fun playing a selfish or evil character may find themselves feeling convicted or religiously challenged if angels aren’t depicted in the manner they see fit or interpret. For example, as a Christian who has studied Systemic (Scientific) Theology, it is biblically defined in the Abraham/Hebrewic format that the angels (i.e.: Host, Arch-angels, Seraphim, Cherubs, etc.) were created to serve and worship a Higher Will and not a will of their own. So any major act conducted by biblical Angels, particularly a Holy Legion of them would have to be ordered by The Higher Will which opens up the channels even further for what or what not would be instituted as an Act or Order from Higher Power, being Yahweh. If it is ordered then the outcome is already predetermined. Biblically speaking, there is no “equal" war between Good and Evil. There is simply the roles that the fallen(Evil) is playing out, but they too know the outcome and that it isn’t favorable against Higher Power. "Biblically" speaking there would not even be a war between the evil factions, they would all be under one evil force. Infusing this could easily instigate theological debates, turn away established Gamers who have a different belief or paradigm, or simply feel that infusing such sensitive subject matters into a RPG is going to far.

I'm not really sure this is wholly fair. Palladium books have long done things to reference real world beliefs and paradigms. Heck, there is a Witch class which blatantly paints them as evil. The fact that you use real-world mythology kind of adds in there as well, there are real life people who are druids, for example, as well as even real-world Odinists. (Granted, the latter is very rare, but the Witch and Druid parts aren't.)

Though I do agree with your Biblical references, as I mentioned earlier, there should be no contest. The weakest Angel, based on Angelology and Demonology, has pure dominion over the strongest demon. It would literally take, if we go on the established beliefs, one single solitary Angel to raise a hand and utter one of the words of creation and poof... All Demons go bye bye instantly and in one shot... The lore on it is very weird and twisted.

But on the other hand... They are being left out of it nearly completely. I wish there was some lip-service at the very least explaining why they aren't showing up. Even if that lip-service goes the classic and cliche route of, "We can't interfere because this is all a part of the plan of the Almighty." It just feels odd with all of the forces of Good in Palladium (of which there seem to be very few) there are few being brought into play here... I think of things in this case like the Cosmic Forge and the like.

It’s a game designed for pure entertainment and imagination. Currently both demons and angels are considered dimensional beings, which is a broader and safer ideology that is accepted by a much broader general fanbase/target audience. Becoming more definitive on what constitutes true angels and other beings of light and what does not or how they should be conducted in a game can unintentionally offend certain circles of Gamers or cause unwanted arguments and heated debates which is the antithesis to the entertainment objective of the game. I have seen this happen with the subject matter of the Nephilim and the current debate as to the term Sons of God used in Genesis 6:2 when describing the "Sons of God" who took the "daughters of men" and made wives of them. One side view is that the Sons of God are actually men i.e.: the sons of Seth that preserve the covenant with God while the daughters of men refers to the progeny of Caine, the fallen who no longer keeps the covenant. Another view suggest that the term in this scripture refers to angels as likened to Job. This type of debate was not fruitful for the gaming experience. So even though there were all these imaginative ideas on what Nephilim could be devised and what powers they would have, the other side of the coin and respecting other Gamers beliefs and paradigms is also a major consideration.

I see this on one hand... On another hand... I don't know. I think anyone playing roleplaying games in general, especially ones with things like Godlings running around and the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse rampaging across Africa... I'm not really sure that it can be said that defining an Angel in the books would be all that bad. I mean, technically you have already done it.

If we go Biblical, then the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse were indeed low-tier Angels anyway. Which, right away, gives us a baseline for what an Angel is in the Palladium universe.

B: Author personal taste: As a Freelancer Artist and Concept Developer, I can respect the ideas and creativity of the Contributing Writers and clearly understand that MIF is what it is because that is simply the vision and direction that the Writer and Kevin chose. Sometimes it is as simply as that.

I can whole-heartedly agree there. Sometimes ya do what you are told to do.

C: Having such a powerful faction of good guys at the helm sort of puts the Player characters into the back seat, not even the passenger seat in the grand scheme of things. IMHO, Players want to feel and see that their hard work, actions, sacrifices and achievements or failures matter and enjoy seeing their gaming results impact the setting. You don’t want to have the Players feeling patronized or upstaged by more powerful characters. This doesn’t mean that there is not a need for powerful NPCs that are good, but it often takes a good GM to conduct the actions of such NPCs, which is not always an easy task. Certain antics that a Player group might tolerate or entertain might be crossing the line or intolerable by a pure good guy NPC. “ I don’t care that this demon is trying to atone, it is an accursed demon and its fate has already been chosen. Now move aside so that I can smite thee into the dark abyss where kismet awaits.”

Yeah, this completely happens... Though, on the other hand, isn't that kind of what was done with the Cosmo-Knight? Isn't that part of their shtick? In that they can't compromise and any compromise, no matter how small, leads to them losing their powers instantly? Similar in-scope to the Paladins of another well-known game line?

D. Avoiding more publication delays, adding unforeseen segments into this publication could potentially add to the delays of this long awaited title that Gamers may or may not justify the wait for. The Minion War has been defined as these two forces of evil locked in a seething war and spilling across the Megaverse, I don't think there are many Gamers eager to see what Good Guys are involved. Adding all out open war between such factions as if the demons and devils wasn’t enough, would have to result in some tremendous amount of consequences that might usurp the MIF event and the setting as we know it.

Hrm...

Avoiding delays is good but, I dunno, one of the things I love about Rifts is reading about all of the settings. For years I bought any Rifts book I could get my hands on even though I wasn't an active player, for the setting and stories. That "setting-hog" in me is incredibly curious to know what kinds of "Good Guys" are involved and what they are doing, and why they aren't doing more.

These are my guesses from the hip sort of speak as to why we don’t see as much angelic activity. Details regarding the Summoners, Old Ones, numbers game, etc., simply solidify the logic as to why RIFTS Earth at the current state is not the Megaversal Armageddon Battleground Finale between the high orders.

Well... The obvious answer would be... Because it wouldn't be much of a fight. If we look at the topics covered above. If we assume the Angels (with the Capital A) are drawn from the Hebrew origin then we also assume that the forces of truly Demonic (with a Capital D) simply couldn't stop them. So either we end up in a situation where the Demons are simply demons (as in extra-dimensional beings that aren't truly those of the Enemy) where the Heavenly Host simply has no reason to interfere, or, for some reason or another the Host simply has decided not to.

So as much as I would love to see more angelic influences and champions of Light, even if in the sideline schemes and planing developments or other realm excursions to explain why they are not as vocal or active and prominent in the grand view against the evil hordes, I simply think that such source material is not as high a demand for RPG entertainment. Many Gamers enjoy contending with and destroying evil, but not so much when contending with condemning good guys or being bossed around and reprimanded for independent decision making, imho.

With that said, I would be all in for conjuring a sourcebook entailing Angelic like beings that seek to restore the good in the Megaverse, and to protect the pure of heart and the innocent that are predated by evil.

Personal opinion only but... I'm interested.

There are a number of players who play straight up evil in games... Straight up evil... And they only have other evil really to contend with. A collection of the forces of Good in the multiverse would be a great resource for characters for them to face. After all they can only stand up to so many honorable Cyber-Knights. Also I feel that such a resource would be a great chance to insert some new "Good" OCCs which I, personally, feel are a bit lacking. We have tons of stuff explicitly for evil characters... For example... Including, but not limited to, an entire Hand to Hand fighting style... But the number of "You must be good" OCCs is actually pretty small...

Now, off the top of my head, I can think of... I dunno... 1? Cosmo-Knight?

Cyber-Knights can fall... There is the Order of the White Rose in Madhaven, which are the good version of the Mystic Knight... I think there might be something in Rifts England?

But there are a bunch of "You must be evil" ones laying around.

Personally a Knight empowered by a spirit of light might be incredibly cool (and note, that is the main, if not only, reason I bought a copy of the previously mentioned Heroes Unlimited supplement (despite the fact that I have no group for Heroes Unlimited and lack even the core books at the moment) and if ever a world needed a few extra-dimensional forces of good it would be Rifts.

That is on a potentially separate topic but why do only evil things seem to come through Rifts? The spluggorth, the Xit-x... Bug things? The vampires? Why has there never some incredibly powerful force for good? Maybe the Millennium Trees?

[guardiandashi]

granted for various reasons the minion war may not have been the "best place" to have angelic supernatural good entities, but I can think of ways to make them powerful without being "all powerful."

one example could be another book on the reaction of the beings of light to the "minion war"
and give examples of angelic beings.

some features I can see for "holy / angelic beings"
they have a lot of the same features as the evil ones, but raised to a higher level.
IE a lesser angel might be statwise ~on the level of a mid rank deamon on their own. but when they start building a "host" they start getting power feedback upgrades based on the "friendlies in the area"
when their Deity decides to get involved and intervene they can channel power into said beings, in addition but there is a risk/reward aspect going on because that power is essentially spent and lost and while the angel (or whatever) may be hard to destroy and in come cases effectively immortal (except under certain circumstances) there are notes in history/mythology that angels and similar CAN be killed its just really hard.

features that could be amusing to incorporate would be things like:
why are lycanthropes and vampires vulnerable to silver? well that's because angelic blood has some silver in it.
why do vampires have issues with sunlight? well angels can "channel and emit "holy light" which is for all practical purposes "weaponized holy sunlight"
if you give the "holy entities" abilities designed to specifically take advantage of the various vulnerabilities of the "evil ones" it does get into a bit of a paper rock scissors "game" even if not all the "holy" entities have all the counters. I could see low rank ones only being able to exploit say 1 or 2 vulnerabilities and higher rank ones having more and more counters. possibly including "mad type functions" (giving an all new meaning to the old "holy hand grenade"..... )

[SirRobin]

If I were Palladium I'd answer it like this:

The demons have some kind of artifact that is keeping the angels at bay.

There is a couple of paragraphs explaining the lack of a response from "good" and one of the possibilities is some sort of artifact. At work though so not recalling the exact name.

Oops, forgot to say, within the last couple of pages of MiF.

[SirRobin]

While I am familiar with religion, I tend not to take it too seriously. No offense intended for those who do. However, I find the potential for concern over offending those who do? A little odd for a game with as much "religious" content as Rifts already has. And already shines such a bright light on moral shades of grey. I can agree that some players could find "I guess I am a selfish bastard" a little disconcerting but that is kind of the idea behind role playing. Enjoyment from pretending to be someone that you are not.

I see the introduction of "angelic" beings as an even greater escalation to the war instead of "here comes the cavalry" or deus ex machina. Maybe I just find the concept of a "megaversal" war not pulling in other "supernatural" powers, including angelics, a bit diminishing of its implied importance.

[Tor]

However much the Air or Fire or Earth guys may resemble traditional angels enough to offend people... (which does make us ask why they are included at all... and clashes since one of them is locked up in Mephisto jail) well...

What about those Seahorse guys, they could not offend anyone.

Maybe they are busy fighting Aquatics or dealing with Lord of the Deep.

[Shark_Force]

not up on traditional christian beliefs on angels as i might be, but i do know that various angels actually have an association with specific elements. so actually, those earth, air, and fire angels aren't like angels in spite of their relation to an element... that's actually a contributing factor. the water ones may look different enough to be distinct from traditional christian views on various angels, i'm not really sure (again, my knowledge of that particular part of christian theology is not great... )

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well the thing to remember is that 'Palladium' angels/spirits of light need not, to have anything to do with 'christian' angels.

Other than the 'old gods' in Pantheons, Palladium goes to pretty good length to not touch on 'real world' religions too terribly much. A policy I find smart and don't mind at all.

[HWalsh]

Well the thing to remember is that 'Palladium' angels/spirits of light need not, to have anything to do with 'christian' angels.

Other than the 'old gods' in Pantheons, Palladium goes to pretty good length to not touch on 'real world' religions too terribly much. A policy I find smart and don't mind at all.

I dunno, they did the whole Four Horsemen thing...

Those are Christian Angels.

Even if they technically got the horsemen wrong. Then again, so does everyone...

Contrary to popular belief there wasn't a Famine.

The rider on the black horse (never named) actually represented Social Justice. It gets really weird when you get into it.

[HWalsh]

Palladium is good for nothing.

I am tired of the lies.

Where are my contracts and money...

I will not beg, do your jobs losers!

Uhm... Look, I'm not part of Palladium so maybe I shouldn't step in here, but I am a game designer. I mostly work in indie circles, and I understand that sometimes things may go odd, I don't know what is going on with what has you upset. I have been doing this professionally for most of my life though...

I can tell you man, going on the company's message board, and saying such things isn't going to resolve any kind of situation and it will tarnish your own reputation, considerably, with not only this company but any other company you may go to in the future. Step back, take a deep breath, don't go this route...

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well the thing to remember is that 'Palladium' angels/spirits of light need not, to have anything to do with 'christian' angels.

Other than the 'old gods' in Pantheons, Palladium goes to pretty good length to not touch on 'real world' religions too terribly much. A policy I find smart and don't mind at all.

I dunno, they did the whole Four Horsemen thing...

Those are Christian Angels.

Even if they technically got the horsemen wrong. Then again, so does everyone...

Contrary to popular belief there wasn't a Famine.

The rider on the black horse (never named) actually represented Social Justice. It gets really weird when you get into it.

Well that's my point. They were -not- christian Angels. They were something else. You see religion every once in a while. Out of 100s of OCCs there are what.. 3 that touch on (real world)Religion, and they're pretty scattered.

[Brayon]

Well the thing to remember is that 'Palladium' angels/spirits of light need not, to have anything to do with 'christian' angels.

Other than the 'old gods' in Pantheons, Palladium goes to pretty good length to not touch on 'real world' religions too terribly much. A policy I find smart and don't mind at all.

I dunno, they did the whole Four Horsemen thing...

Those are Christian Angels.

Even if they technically got the horsemen wrong. Then again, so does everyone...

Contrary to popular belief there wasn't a Famine.

The rider on the black horse (never named) actually represented Social Justice. It gets really weird when you get into it.

Well that's my point. They were -not- christian Angels. They were something else. You see religion every once in a while. Out of 100s of OCCs there are what.. 3 that touch on (real world)Religion, and they're pretty scattered.

Did not know about the Social Justice Horseman. Which is pretty interesting, with all things considered.

I like the long disclaimer on The Preacher O.C.C. in New West.

[HWalsh]

Did not know about the Social Justice Horseman. Which is pretty interesting, with all things considered.

I like the long disclaimer on The Preacher O.C.C. in New West.

Yeah... And people told me taking Occult Studies in college would never be used for anything... Greatest conversations at parties thanks to that one... Not bad for game design either...

But yeah, though it is off topic, the horsemen most commonly referred to as Famine (the only one actually named was Death) that rode on a black horse carried a single grain, and people misinterpret that to mean starvation, thus famine. It actually referred to the fact that a man could work all day and buy enough of the "high end" food for himself, or he could buy three times that amount and feed his family. The black horse represented wealth, as only the wealthy could afford black dye. He carried scales that represented justice, or worth, used at the time for transaction value. That horseman signified the wealthy taking away from the poor (according to a fair number of modern scholars) because that was a big part of the world belief at the time.

Occult studies... Take it if you can find it... You will learn a lot of totally useless things but will be the star of every dinner party you will ever go to after that.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Did not know about the Social Justice Horseman. Which is pretty interesting, with all things considered.

I like the long disclaimer on The Preacher O.C.C. in New West.

Yeah... And people told me taking Occult Studies in college would never be used for anything... Greatest conversations at parties thanks to that one... Not bad for game design either...

But yeah, though it is off topic, the horsemen most commonly referred to as Famine (the only one actually named was Death) that rode on a black horse carried a single grain, and people misinterpret that to mean starvation, thus famine. It actually referred to the fact that a man could work all day and buy enough of the "high end" food for himself, or he could buy three times that amount and feed his family. The black horse represented wealth, as only the wealthy could afford black dye. He carried scales that represented justice, or worth, used at the time for transaction value. That horseman signified the wealthy taking away from the poor (according to a fair number of modern scholars) because that was a big part of the world belief at the time.

Occult studies... Take it if you can find it... You will learn a lot of totally useless things but will be the star of every dinner party you will ever go to after that.

Now see... dyeing horses is just silly.
I'm by no means a biblical scholar. That said, I know there are many of them out there, and your information is one of many ways such things are taken/explained. When speaking of religion saying "Oh you're wrong" or 'This is what they REALLY meant' is bound to rile up someone.

So I tend to stay away from such things, as someone always gets riled up. My point remains though. The angels/forces of light in palladium need not be constrained or held to typical judo/christian beliefs.

[HWalsh]

So I tend to stay away from such things, as someone always gets riled up. My point remains though. The angels/forces of light in palladium need not be constrained or held to typical judo/christian beliefs.

I can get behind that...

I would think, even if they aren't showing up and directly empowering people, that they would at least be dropping off holy weapons or weapons of light to help people take down the demons.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well there's the "Heroes of the Megaverse" book, if you want to go that way.

[Brayon]

So I tend to stay away from such things, as someone always gets riled up. My point remains though. The angels/forces of light in palladium need not be constrained or held to typical judo/christian beliefs.

I can get behind that...

I would think, even if they aren't showing up and directly empowering people, that they would at least be dropping off holy weapons or weapons of light to help people take down the demons.

Remember some people still believe in, and worship the Egyptian, Norse, and Roman/Greek gods. But, lots of different companies use them because they are considered "Myths" in the Judea/Christian/Muslim faiths.

[HWalsh]

Well there's the "Heroes of the Megaverse" book, if you want to go that way.

Its less, to me, about if there is information available to have it occur and more, to me, about the overall state of the metaplot of the war. It just bugs me that there is this massive demon incursion going on, a war that is, quote unquote, engulfing the Megaverse, and it seems the natural counter-part to the Demons is just kind of sitting on its hands. It feels, I dunno, somehow wrong? Ya know what I mean?

[HWalsh]

So I tend to stay away from such things, as someone always gets riled up. My point remains though. The angels/forces of light in palladium need not be constrained or held to typical judo/christian beliefs.

I can get behind that...

I would think, even if they aren't showing up and directly empowering people, that they would at least be dropping off holy weapons or weapons of light to help people take down the demons.

Remember some people still believe in, and worship the Egyptian, Norse, and Roman/Greek gods. But, lots of different companies use them because they are considered "Myths" in the Judea/Christian/Muslim faiths.

I actually do know an Odinist in real life. He gets really annoyed whenever he sees them, "Get it wong." In TV shows and comic books. He HATES (Marvel's) Thor.

[HWalsh]

Jeff,


Thank you for your politeness and patience. Forgive me. I got distracted. I will make sure Kevin gets a copy of this today.



Best regards,
Alex Marciniszyn

Duncan, seriously man, you have spammed every single topic. I understand you have an issue but it is disrupting the rest of us. If you wanted to send a message then I am sure that you have accomplished it, but can you not stop the rest of us from having discussions now?

[Pepsi Jedi]

So I tend to stay away from such things, as someone always gets riled up. My point remains though. The angels/forces of light in palladium need not be constrained or held to typical judo/christian beliefs.

I can get behind that...

I would think, even if they aren't showing up and directly empowering people, that they would at least be dropping off holy weapons or weapons of light to help people take down the demons.

Remember some people still believe in, and worship the Egyptian, Norse, and Roman/Greek gods. But, lots of different companies use them because they are considered "Myths" in the Judea/Christian/Muslim faiths.

Yeah I brushed on that in one of my previous posts. You're 100% Correct. This has actually come back to bite palladium in the rear once. I forget if it was English, or Scandinavian, or both, but for a while we were getting information that stuff published in some of the world books and Pantheons had angered players IRL and the books were being boycotted due to it.

It was a WHILE back, but I remember it coming up.

[Nightmask]

So I tend to stay away from such things, as someone always gets riled up. My point remains though. The angels/forces of light in palladium need not be constrained or held to typical judo/christian beliefs.

I can get behind that...

I would think, even if they aren't showing up and directly empowering people, that they would at least be dropping off holy weapons or weapons of light to help people take down the demons.

Remember some people still believe in, and worship the Egyptian, Norse, and Roman/Greek gods. But, lots of different companies use them because they are considered "Myths" in the Judea/Christian/Muslim faiths.

I actually do know an Odinist in real life. He gets really annoyed whenever he sees them, "Get it wong." In TV shows and comic books. He HATES (Marvel's) Thor.

We used to have one of those on the CMF forums (although wasn't a hater of Thor), once got bent out of shape because a discussion of an old issue where Thing fought Champion showed his courage in refusing to give in as somehow implying Thor was lacking. I had to point out the issue's central character was the Thing and so they contrived to quickly disqualify everyone else like Thor (since it wasn't a weapon-using match and he hurled his hammer at Champion he was disqualified) so Thing could shine and wasn't any reason to think it implied Thor was lacking in courage.

[Tor]

I dunno, they did the whole Four Horsemen thing...Those are Christian Angels. Even if they technically got the horsemen wrong. Then again, so does everyone...

Contrary to popular belief there wasn't a Famine. The rider on the black horse (never named) actually represented Social Justice. It gets really weird when you get into it.

Did not know about the Social Justice Horseman. Which is pretty interesting, with all things considered.

Wait so one of the 4 Horsemen is... a Social Justice Warrior?

#DemonGate

[Zer0 Kay]

This subject was something that I brought up several times, and I must admit, I think you all have mentioned some of the same issues, concerns and valid points that surround this matter.

I too questioned my interpretation for the lack of angelic or powerful beings of purity & Light (ala “Good Guys”) involvement. I saw MIF as a magnet for such opposition to draw in more formidable opposition to the evil forces that are being so invasive to earth.

As a Freelance Artist and conceptualist, I envisioned all sorts of angelic beings, Holy demigods, Host, Avatars, Spiritual Armors and Weapons, abilities, etc., etc., that could pour forth to engage the evil hordes spilling into RIFTS Earth.

However, I think and blindly assume the strongest points that negate my expectations are as follows:

A: The sensitivity of the Angel/Host subject matter may change the tonality of the game from entertainment to theological debate and speculations that could alter the gaming atmosphere of the RPG. As mentioned, a player who was once having fun playing a selfish or evil character may find themselves feeling convicted or religiously challenged if angels aren’t depicted in the manner they see fit or interpret. For example, as a Christian who has studied Systemic (Scientific) Theology, it is biblically defined in the Abraham/Hebrewic format that the angels (i.e.: Host, Arch-angels, Seraphim, Cherubs, etc.) were created to serve and worship a Higher Will and not a will of their own. So any major act conducted by biblical Angels, particularly a Holy Legion of them would have to be ordered by The Higher Will which opens up the channels even further for what or what not would be instituted as an Act or Order from Higher Power, being Yahweh. If it is ordered then the outcome is already predetermined. Biblically speaking, there is no “equal" war between Good and Evil. There is simply the roles that the fallen(Evil) is playing out, but they too know the outcome and that it isn’t favorable against Higher Power. "Biblically" speaking there would not even be a war between the evil factions, they would all be under one evil force. Infusing this could easily instigate theological debates, turn away established Gamers who have a different belief or paradigm, or simply feel that infusing such sensitive subject matters into a RPG is going to far.

It’s a game designed for pure entertainment and imagination. Currently both demons and angels are considered dimensional beings, which is a broader and safer ideology that is accepted by a much broader general fanbase/target audience. Becoming more definitive on what constitutes true angels and other beings of light and what does not or how they should be conducted in a game can unintentionally offend certain circles of Gamers or cause unwanted arguments and heated debates which is the antithesis to the entertainment objective of the game. I have seen this happen with the subject matter of the Nephilim and the current debate as to the term Sons of God used in Genesis 6:2 when describing the "Sons of God" who took the "daughters of men" and made wives of them. One side view is that the Sons of God are actually men i.e.: the sons of Seth that preserve the covenant with God while the daughters of men refers to the progeny of Caine, the fallen who no longer keeps the covenant. Another view suggest that the term in this scripture refers to angels as likened to Job. This type of debate was not fruitful for the gaming experience. So even though there were all these imaginative ideas on what Nephilim could be devised and what powers they would have, the other side of the coin and respecting other Gamers beliefs and paradigms is also a major consideration.

B: Author personal taste: As a Freelancer Artist and Concept Developer, I can respect the ideas and creativity of the Contributing Writers and clearly understand that MIF is what it is because that is simply the vision and direction that the Writer and Kevin chose. Sometimes it is as simply as that.

C: Having such a powerful faction of good guys at the helm sort of puts the Player characters into the back seat, not even the passenger seat in the grand scheme of things. IMHO, Players want to feel and see that their hard work, actions, sacrifices and achievements or failures matter and enjoy seeing their gaming results impact the setting. You don’t want to have the Players feeling patronized or upstaged by more powerful characters. This doesn’t mean that there is not a need for powerful NPCs that are good, but it often takes a good GM to conduct the actions of such NPCs, which is not always an easy task. Certain antics that a Player group might tolerate or entertain might be crossing the line or intolerable by a pure good guy NPC. “ I don’t care that this demon is trying to atone, it is an accursed demon and its fate has already been chosen. Now move aside so that I can smite thee into the dark abyss where kismet awaits.”

D. Avoiding more publication delays, adding unforeseen segments into this publication could potentially add to the delays of this long awaited title that Gamers may or may not justify the wait for. The Minion War has been defined as these two forces of evil locked in a seething war and spilling across the Megaverse, I don't think there are many Gamers eager to see what Good Guys are involved. Adding all out open war between such factions as if the demons and devils wasn’t enough, would have to result in some tremendous amount of consequences that might usurp the MIF event and the setting as we know it.

These are my guesses from the hip sort of speak as to why we don’t see as much angelic activity. Details regarding the Summoners, Old Ones, numbers game, etc., simply solidify the logic as to why RIFTS Earth at the current state is not the Megaversal Armageddon Battleground Finale between the high orders.

So as much as I would love to see more angelic influences and champions of Light, even if in the sideline schemes and planing developments or other realm excursions to explain why they are not as vocal or active and prominent in the grand view against the evil hordes, I simply think that such source material is not as high a demand for RPG entertainment. Many Gamers enjoy contending with and destroying evil, but not so much when contending with condemning good guys or being bossed around and reprimanded for independent decision making, imho.

With that said, I would be all in for conjuring a sourcebook entailing Angelic like beings that seek to restore the good in the Megaverse, and to protect the pure of heart and the innocent that are predated by evil.

A. The same can be said of the opposite a Christian seeing that Pally uses biblical demons but does not use a angelic host is making a theological claim that God is dead. Which to me is worse than being accused of incorrect portrayal.

B. Fair enough.

C. Does having the SDF-1 in the background in RT make the players any less important? Playing a CS game with the might of the CS Army... does that lessen the characters import? The Angels would just be handled the same as any other massive army...background, the rebel fleet overhead while Luke, Leia and Han are taking out the shield generator.

D. Forces of light Sourcebook or after the war is over and the victor remains, the champions of light come in to restore balance.
Forces of Light: Ballance Restored

[glitterboy2098]

well, like all of revelations, the exact interpritations of what is going on vary.

the relevant passages:

Revelation 6:1-2
1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

this one has been identified as everything from symbolic of increasing warfare to the arrival of the anti-christ. often whatever unpopular ruler a particular person dislikes is identified as the rider.

Revelation 6:3-4
3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4 And there went out another horse [that was] red: and [power] was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

this one is more straight forward, but still greatly debated. it is clear this one would be 'war' from the popular idea of the 4 horsemen.

Revelation 6:5-6
5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a denarius, and three measures of barley for a denarius; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

this is probably the one HWalsh was talking about..
classically this one has been identified as famine, though more modernist views connect it to how high taxes result in shortages.

Revelation 6:7-8
7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

also a fairly straightforward seeming one, but also one greatly debated. often this is explained as pestilence as much as death itself.


ultimately, Revelations was not intended to be a literal fortelling, but rather an apocalyptic one.. that is, a collection of symbolic elements describing a perceived great change/revelation.
apocalyptic literature (especially christian apocalyptic literature) was common at the time revelations was written, but most of it was not as visually evocative as Revelations, and didn't have the grand message Revelations did. which is why the council of Nicea chose to adopt it into the official catholic bible, despite it otherwise being similar to much of the stuff that ended up as apocrypha.

[HWalsh]

Ahh... Only among gamers, on an internet forum, can we actually discuss theology, on a Saturday, without someone screaming bloody murder.

I love my fellow gamers.

[zaccheus]

I think I know why angels/supernatural forces of light are so rare on rifts earth. The st Louis arch rift is actually to the plane of light/heaven/nirvana and the coalition are killing/containing anything that tries to get through.

[eliakon]

This subject was something that I brought up several times, and I must admit, I think you all have mentioned some of the same issues, concerns and valid points that surround this matter.

I too questioned my interpretation for the lack of angelic or powerful beings of purity & Light (ala “Good Guys”) involvement. I saw MIF as a magnet for such opposition to draw in more formidable opposition to the evil forces that are being so invasive to earth.

As a Freelance Artist and conceptualist, I envisioned all sorts of angelic beings, Holy demigods, Host, Avatars, Spiritual Armors and Weapons, abilities, etc., etc., that could pour forth to engage the evil hordes spilling into RIFTS Earth.

However, I think and blindly assume the strongest points that negate my expectations are as follows:

A: The sensitivity of the Angel/Host subject matter may change the tonality of the game from entertainment to theological debate and speculations that could alter the gaming atmosphere of the RPG. As mentioned, a player who was once having fun playing a selfish or evil character may find themselves feeling convicted or religiously challenged if angels aren’t depicted in the manner they see fit or interpret. For example, as a Christian who has studied Systemic (Scientific) Theology, it is biblically defined in the Abraham/Hebrewic format that the angels (i.e.: Host, Arch-angels, Seraphim, Cherubs, etc.) were created to serve and worship a Higher Will and not a will of their own. So any major act conducted by biblical Angels, particularly a Holy Legion of them would have to be ordered by The Higher Will which opens up the channels even further for what or what not would be instituted as an Act or Order from Higher Power, being Yahweh. If it is ordered then the outcome is already predetermined. Biblically speaking, there is no “equal" war between Good and Evil. There is simply the roles that the fallen(Evil) is playing out, but they too know the outcome and that it isn’t favorable against Higher Power. "Biblically" speaking there would not even be a war between the evil factions, they would all be under one evil force. Infusing this could easily instigate theological debates, turn away established Gamers who have a different belief or paradigm, or simply feel that infusing such sensitive subject matters into a RPG is going to far.

It’s a game designed for pure entertainment and imagination. Currently both demons and angels are considered dimensional beings, which is a broader and safer ideology that is accepted by a much broader general fanbase/target audience. Becoming more definitive on what constitutes true angels and other beings of light and what does not or how they should be conducted in a game can unintentionally offend certain circles of Gamers or cause unwanted arguments and heated debates which is the antithesis to the entertainment objective of the game. I have seen this happen with the subject matter of the Nephilim and the current debate as to the term Sons of God used in Genesis 6:2 when describing the "Sons of God" who took the "daughters of men" and made wives of them. One side view is that the Sons of God are actually men i.e.: the sons of Seth that preserve the covenant with God while the daughters of men refers to the progeny of Caine, the fallen who no longer keeps the covenant. Another view suggest that the term in this scripture refers to angels as likened to Job. This type of debate was not fruitful for the gaming experience. So even though there were all these imaginative ideas on what Nephilim could be devised and what powers they would have, the other side of the coin and respecting other Gamers beliefs and paradigms is also a major consideration.

B: Author personal taste: As a Freelancer Artist and Concept Developer, I can respect the ideas and creativity of the Contributing Writers and clearly understand that MIF is what it is because that is simply the vision and direction that the Writer and Kevin chose. Sometimes it is as simply as that.

C: Having such a powerful faction of good guys at the helm sort of puts the Player characters into the back seat, not even the passenger seat in the grand scheme of things. IMHO, Players want to feel and see that their hard work, actions, sacrifices and achievements or failures matter and enjoy seeing their gaming results impact the setting. You don’t want to have the Players feeling patronized or upstaged by more powerful characters. This doesn’t mean that there is not a need for powerful NPCs that are good, but it often takes a good GM to conduct the actions of such NPCs, which is not always an easy task. Certain antics that a Player group might tolerate or entertain might be crossing the line or intolerable by a pure good guy NPC. “ I don’t care that this demon is trying to atone, it is an accursed demon and its fate has already been chosen. Now move aside so that I can smite thee into the dark abyss where kismet awaits.”

D. Avoiding more publication delays, adding unforeseen segments into this publication could potentially add to the delays of this long awaited title that Gamers may or may not justify the wait for. The Minion War has been defined as these two forces of evil locked in a seething war and spilling across the Megaverse, I don't think there are many Gamers eager to see what Good Guys are involved. Adding all out open war between such factions as if the demons and devils wasn’t enough, would have to result in some tremendous amount of consequences that might usurp the MIF event and the setting as we know it.

These are my guesses from the hip sort of speak as to why we don’t see as much angelic activity. Details regarding the Summoners, Old Ones, numbers game, etc., simply solidify the logic as to why RIFTS Earth at the current state is not the Megaversal Armageddon Battleground Finale between the high orders.

So as much as I would love to see more angelic influences and champions of Light, even if in the sideline schemes and planing developments or other realm excursions to explain why they are not as vocal or active and prominent in the grand view against the evil hordes, I simply think that such source material is not as high a demand for RPG entertainment. Many Gamers enjoy contending with and destroying evil, but not so much when contending with condemning good guys or being bossed around and reprimanded for independent decision making, imho.

With that said, I would be all in for conjuring a sourcebook entailing Angelic like beings that seek to restore the good in the Megaverse, and to protect the pure of heart and the innocent that are predated by evil.

A. The same can be said of the opposite a Christian seeing that Pally uses biblical demons but does not use a angelic host is making a theological claim that God is dead. Which to me is worse than being accused of incorrect portrayal.

Ummm just to be fair....the demons in the game are not anything like biblical demons......
They are not even that much like most Demonology. They are pretty much like Hollywood interpretations of Neo-Modern versions of renaissance versions of classical views of medieval demons.....But they are not anything remotely 'Biblical'

[cornholioprime]

Well the thing to remember is that 'Palladium' angels/spirits of light need not, to have anything to do with 'christian' angels.

Other than the 'old gods' in Pantheons, Palladium goes to pretty good length to not touch on 'real world' religions too terribly much. A policy I find smart and don't mind at all.

I dunno, they did the whole Four Horsemen thing...

Those are Christian Angels.

Even if they technically got the horsemen wrong. Then again, so does everyone...

Contrary to popular belief there wasn't a Famine.

The rider on the black horse (never named) actually represented Social Justice. It gets really weird when you get into it.

You are entirely mistaken in thinking that Palladium's version of The Four Horsemen and The Angelic Host have anything to do with Christian theology besides sharing the names.

Just to start with, The Four Horsemen in Christian Theology aren't actually evil, they're 'emissaries' of God sent to do His will --quite unlike the omni-cidal Greater Demons in Palladium who are so obsessed with death that they'd even kill bacteria if they could get their hands on them.

[Shark_Force]

quite unlike the omni-cidal Greater Demons in Palladium who are so obsessed with death that they'd even kill bacteria if they could get their hands on them.

so what you're saying is that lysol is secretly a cult serving the horsemen, then?

[Tor]

The Four Horsemen in Christian Theology aren't actually evil, they're 'emissaries' of God sent to do His will --quite unlike the omni-cidal Greater Demons in Palladium who are so obsessed with death that they'd even kill bacteria if they could get their hands on them.

Not necessarily unlike, I do not recall any proof that these guys are not doing the will of a god.

Was't one of the Old Ones their creator? Those are worthy of the title God, if not greater.

[Zamion138]

The Four Horsemen in Christian Theology aren't actually evil, they're 'emissaries' of God sent to do His will --quite unlike the omni-cidal Greater Demons in Palladium who are so obsessed with death that they'd even kill bacteria if they could get their hands on them.

Not necessarily unlike, I do not recall any proof that these guys are not doing the will of a god.

Was't one of the Old Ones their creator? Those are worthy of the title God, if not greater.

In the newest demon book MiF it states death trying to come back via mexico noww in the guise of a demon commander. His goal is the death of all life including undead as they are not dead enough.
So if gods will is the end of all life and the creation of skeltons, zombies, and mummies then maybe but its stated they want nothing less than the death of all things.

[cornholioprime]

The Four Horsemen in Christian Theology aren't actually evil, they're 'emissaries' of God sent to do His will --quite unlike the omni-cidal Greater Demons in Palladium who are so obsessed with death that they'd even kill bacteria if they could get their hands on them.

Not necessarily unlike, I do not recall any proof that these guys are not doing the will of a god.

Was't one of the Old Ones their creator? Those are worthy of the title God, if not greater.

Never ever heard of any such statement by any Palladium author that states that these guys are either doing the Old Ones' will, or were created by them.

Palladium's version of the Four Horsemen wouldn't even be on the same page as the Old Ones philosophically -those guys want to simply kill everything....while the Old Ones want to have plenty of life around to torture, eat (psychically and physically), and experiment on.

[The Beast]

The Four Horsemen in Christian Theology aren't actually evil, they're 'emissaries' of God sent to do His will --quite unlike the omni-cidal Greater Demons in Palladium who are so obsessed with death that they'd even kill bacteria if they could get their hands on them.

Not necessarily unlike, I do not recall any proof that these guys are not doing the will of a god.

Was't one of the Old Ones their creator? Those are worthy of the title God, if not greater.

Never ever heard of any such statement by any Palladium author that states that these guys are either doing the Old Ones' will, or were created by them.

Palladium's version of the Four Horsemen wouldn't even be on the same page as the Old Ones philosophically -those guys want to simply kill everything....while the Old Ones want to have plenty of life around to torture, eat (psychically and physically), and experiment on.

I recall Ya-blik being the one accredited with their creation, but I can't find which book ATM.

EDIT: Found it! Dark Conversions, page 10.

[SirRobin]

How many breeds/dimensions of angel are there in Rifts?