Minion War: Where are the angels?

[Svartalf]

TMK only 4, one for each element

[Zer0 Kay]

This subject was something that I brought up several times, and I must admit, I think you all have mentioned some of the same issues, concerns and valid points that surround this matter.

I too questioned my interpretation for the lack of angelic or powerful beings of purity & Light (ala “Good Guys”) involvement. I saw MIF as a magnet for such opposition to draw in more formidable opposition to the evil forces that are being so invasive to earth.

As a Freelance Artist and conceptualist, I envisioned all sorts of angelic beings, Holy demigods, Host, Avatars, Spiritual Armors and Weapons, abilities, etc., etc., that could pour forth to engage the evil hordes spilling into RIFTS Earth.

However, I think and blindly assume the strongest points that negate my expectations are as follows:

A: The sensitivity of the Angel/Host subject matter may change the tonality of the game from entertainment to theological debate and speculations that could alter the gaming atmosphere of the RPG. As mentioned, a player who was once having fun playing a selfish or evil character may find themselves feeling convicted or religiously challenged if angels aren’t depicted in the manner they see fit or interpret. For example, as a Christian who has studied Systemic (Scientific) Theology, it is biblically defined in the Abraham/Hebrewic format that the angels (i.e.: Host, Arch-angels, Seraphim, Cherubs, etc.) were created to serve and worship a Higher Will and not a will of their own. So any major act conducted by biblical Angels, particularly a Holy Legion of them would have to be ordered by The Higher Will which opens up the channels even further for what or what not would be instituted as an Act or Order from Higher Power, being Yahweh. If it is ordered then the outcome is already predetermined. Biblically speaking, there is no “equal" war between Good and Evil. There is simply the roles that the fallen(Evil) is playing out, but they too know the outcome and that it isn’t favorable against Higher Power. "Biblically" speaking there would not even be a war between the evil factions, they would all be under one evil force. Infusing this could easily instigate theological debates, turn away established Gamers who have a different belief or paradigm, or simply feel that infusing such sensitive subject matters into a RPG is going to far.

It’s a game designed for pure entertainment and imagination. Currently both demons and angels are considered dimensional beings, which is a broader and safer ideology that is accepted by a much broader general fanbase/target audience. Becoming more definitive on what constitutes true angels and other beings of light and what does not or how they should be conducted in a game can unintentionally offend certain circles of Gamers or cause unwanted arguments and heated debates which is the antithesis to the entertainment objective of the game. I have seen this happen with the subject matter of the Nephilim and the current debate as to the term Sons of God used in Genesis 6:2 when describing the "Sons of God" who took the "daughters of men" and made wives of them. One side view is that the Sons of God are actually men i.e.: the sons of Seth that preserve the covenant with God while the daughters of men refers to the progeny of Caine, the fallen who no longer keeps the covenant. Another view suggest that the term in this scripture refers to angels as likened to Job. This type of debate was not fruitful for the gaming experience. So even though there were all these imaginative ideas on what Nephilim could be devised and what powers they would have, the other side of the coin and respecting other Gamers beliefs and paradigms is also a major consideration.

B: Author personal taste: As a Freelancer Artist and Concept Developer, I can respect the ideas and creativity of the Contributing Writers and clearly understand that MIF is what it is because that is simply the vision and direction that the Writer and Kevin chose. Sometimes it is as simply as that.

C: Having such a powerful faction of good guys at the helm sort of puts the Player characters into the back seat, not even the passenger seat in the grand scheme of things. IMHO, Players want to feel and see that their hard work, actions, sacrifices and achievements or failures matter and enjoy seeing their gaming results impact the setting. You don’t want to have the Players feeling patronized or upstaged by more powerful characters. This doesn’t mean that there is not a need for powerful NPCs that are good, but it often takes a good GM to conduct the actions of such NPCs, which is not always an easy task. Certain antics that a Player group might tolerate or entertain might be crossing the line or intolerable by a pure good guy NPC. “ I don’t care that this demon is trying to atone, it is an accursed demon and its fate has already been chosen. Now move aside so that I can smite thee into the dark abyss where kismet awaits.”

D. Avoiding more publication delays, adding unforeseen segments into this publication could potentially add to the delays of this long awaited title that Gamers may or may not justify the wait for. The Minion War has been defined as these two forces of evil locked in a seething war and spilling across the Megaverse, I don't think there are many Gamers eager to see what Good Guys are involved. Adding all out open war between such factions as if the demons and devils wasn’t enough, would have to result in some tremendous amount of consequences that might usurp the MIF event and the setting as we know it.

These are my guesses from the hip sort of speak as to why we don’t see as much angelic activity. Details regarding the Summoners, Old Ones, numbers game, etc., simply solidify the logic as to why RIFTS Earth at the current state is not the Megaversal Armageddon Battleground Finale between the high orders.

So as much as I would love to see more angelic influences and champions of Light, even if in the sideline schemes and planing developments or other realm excursions to explain why they are not as vocal or active and prominent in the grand view against the evil hordes, I simply think that such source material is not as high a demand for RPG entertainment. Many Gamers enjoy contending with and destroying evil, but not so much when contending with condemning good guys or being bossed around and reprimanded for independent decision making, imho.

With that said, I would be all in for conjuring a sourcebook entailing Angelic like beings that seek to restore the good in the Megaverse, and to protect the pure of heart and the innocent that are predated by evil.

A. The same can be said of the opposite a Christian seeing that Pally uses biblical demons but does not use a angelic host is making a theological claim that God is dead. Which to me is worse than being accused of incorrect portrayal.

Ummm just to be fair....the demons in the game are not anything like biblical demons......
They are not even that much like most Demonology. They are pretty much like Hollywood interpretations of Neo-Modern versions of renaissance versions of classical views of medieval demons.....But they are not anything remotely 'Biblical'

Yeah they aren't just like the angels aren't so my argument that they are is as valid. That being said some of the demons do share the names. Heck the horsemen are specifically from the Christian faith.

So your saying they have the same relationship as Lonestar and Dark Helmet? . A name IS remote relationship.

[Zer0 Kay]

The Four Horsemen in Christian Theology aren't actually evil, they're 'emissaries' of God sent to do His will --quite unlike the omni-cidal Greater Demons in Palladium who are so obsessed with death that they'd even kill bacteria if they could get their hands on them.

Not necessarily unlike, I do not recall any proof that these guys are not doing the will of a god.

Was't one of the Old Ones their creator? Those are worthy of the title God, if not greater.

Wow Tor, treading far closer to that heresy line than KS would ever try.

[SirRobin]

TMK only 4, one for each element

Really? I think I better dig through the older stuff again. Anyone recall which one that is brought up in? Pantheons?

[The Beast]

How many breeds/dimensions of angel are there in Rifts?

To my knowledge, there's just the Cheruu, Seraph, Ariel, and Tharsis.

[Shark_Force]

How many breeds/dimensions of angel are there in Rifts?

i've only ever seen a few... i think 4? in the original conversion book (ie the one before they revised it).

[Zer0 Kay]

well, like all of revelations, the exact interpritations of what is going on vary.

the relevant passages:

Revelation 6:1-2
1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

this one has been identified as everything from symbolic of increasing warfare to the arrival of the anti-christ. often whatever unpopular ruler a particular person dislikes is identified as the rider.

Revelation 6:3-4
3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4 And there went out another horse [that was] red: and [power] was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

this one is more straight forward, but still greatly debated. it is clear this one would be 'war' from the popular idea of the 4 horsemen.

Revelation 6:5-6
5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a denarius, and three measures of barley for a denarius; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

this is probably the one HWalsh was talking about..
classically this one has been identified as famine, though more modernist views connect it to how high taxes result in shortages.

Revelation 6:7-8
7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

also a fairly straightforward seeming one, but also one greatly debated. often this is explained as pestilence as much as death itself.


ultimately, Revelations was not intended to be a literal fortelling, but rather an apocalyptic one.. that is, a collection of symbolic elements describing a perceived great change/revelation.
apocalyptic literature (especially christian apocalyptic literature) was common at the time revelations was written, but most of it was not as visually evocative as Revelations, and didn't have the grand message Revelations did. which is why the council of Nicea chose to adopt it into the official catholic bible, despite it otherwise being similar to much of the stuff that ended up as apocrypha.

Black dye though... seriously? Where the heck he pull that from. I could have got that only a rich man could afford an Arabian stallion. Besides having the grain but only not harming the oil and wine tells me the food was destroyed.

[glitterboy2098]

Black dye though... seriously? Where the heck he pull that from. I could have got that only a rich man could afford an Arabian stallion. Besides having the grain but only not harming the oil and wine tells me the food was destroyed.

actually, some biblical scholars tie it to taxes because at the time, the romans had switched back to taxation 'in kind'. if you couldn't pay with coin, you could give a portion of goods instead. grain was the normal 'currency' under that method, but oil and wine were not normally part of it.

[Svartalf]

Black dye though... seriously? Where the heck he pull that from. I could have got that only a rich man could afford an Arabian stallion. Besides having the grain but only not harming the oil and wine tells me the food was destroyed.

actually, some biblical scholars tie it to taxes because at the time, the romans had switched back to taxation 'in kind'. if you couldn't pay with coin, you could give a portion of goods instead. grain was the normal 'currency' under that method, but oil and wine were not normally part of it.

I'd like sources on that... using grain, but not wine or oil as currency in the Mediterranean world feels.. strange.

[glitterboy2098]

in kind taxes were usually only employed by people from poorer regions.. grain was usually the only abundant thing they could use. it is not so much that you couldn't use oil and wine, so much as oil and wine was pricy, and if you could supply it in the amounts needed you could usually do taxes in coin.

the 'in kind' taxes were intended to feed the army, which needed a lot of grain, but which could usually get oil and wine locally or via short shipping routes using the money from taxes. (they also had a much lower consumption for oil and wine.)

[Zer0 Kay]

Black dye though... seriously? Where the heck he pull that from. I could have got that only a rich man could afford an Arabian stallion. Besides having the grain but only not harming the oil and wine tells me the food was destroyed.

actually, some biblical scholars tie it to taxes because at the time, the romans had switched back to taxation 'in kind'. if you couldn't pay with coin, you could give a portion of goods instead. grain was the normal 'currency' under that method, but oil and wine were not normally part of it.

So right now we've got the horsemen of principalities, tax collection, standing armies and what... proper plumbing so plumbers so unions. Sounds more like the four horsemen of civilization. Government.

[Tor]

How many breeds/dimensions of angel are there in Rifts?

To my knowledge, there's just the Cheruu, Seraph, Ariel, and Tharsis.

I could've sworn that the Necrophim have been called 'dark angels' at some point... which fits in with their inclusion in Athanatos-breeding.

[eliakon]

How many breeds/dimensions of angel are there in Rifts?

To my knowledge, there's just the Cheruu, Seraph, Ariel, and Tharsis.

I could've sworn that the Necrophim have been called 'dark angels' at some point... which fits in with their inclusion in Athanatos-breeding.

They have been called that, but not in a canonical standpoint, but from an 'in world' perspective. Which is also why the Spirits of Light are called Spirits of Light, not Angels....

[Tor]

That's why I figure there are 5 angels: 4spirits-of-light and 1 spirit-of-darkness.

Now wondering if there might be 3 other SoD breeds to compliment the Necrophim. If we say their element is shadow then I'm wondering what other kind of anti-elements could exist to make angels out of.

I seem to recall something in maybe the Three Galaxies sourcebook (dimension book 6) about a world of elementals and some hypothetical additional elements besides the basic 4... but I can't remember what they were. Or maybe it was Anvil Galaxy? (db5) will have to check...

Would also be interested in any possible Necrophim-Silhouette connections. Aren't the latter mentioned as possibly being from some Plane-of-Shadow?

We also know that Shadow Beasts hang out in Tartarus, a kingdom within the Mircallan void-Kingdom of Tophet.

[eliakon]

That's why I figure there are 5 angels: 4spirits-of-light and 1 spirit-of-darkness.

Now wondering if there might be 3 other SoD breeds to compliment the Necrophim. If we say their element is shadow then I'm wondering what other kind of anti-elements could exist to make angels out of.

I seem to recall something in maybe the Three Galaxies sourcebook (dimension book 6) about a world of elementals and some hypothetical additional elements besides the basic 4... but I can't remember what they were. Or maybe it was Anvil Galaxy? (db5) will have to check...

Would also be interested in any possible Necrophim-Silhouette connections. Aren't the latter mentioned as possibly being from some Plane-of-Shadow?

We also know that Shadow Beasts hang out in Tartarus, a kingdom within the Mircallan void-Kingdom of Tophet.

Except that all of this is based on non-canon speculation and presumptions.
There is no canon statement that Necrophim are a 'spirit of darkness' to compliment the spirits of light'
There is no canon statement that the Athanos really are connected to the Spirits of Light beyond appearance and their own myths
There is no canon statement that the Necrophim are 'elemental' (shadow or otherwise)
There is no canon explanations on what the 'plane of shadow' is and even if their is one such plane or multiple ones (we don't actually honestly know for sure if there is only one elemental plane for the classical elements to be honest)
And for more fun we know that the Guardians are a 'creature of light' (as are the Sun Dogs in LoD)....neither of which are Spirits of Light


Its cool world building stuff....but its totally squarely in the realm of "I am making up random stuff to make my game cool" and not anything supported in anyway by canon....

[Brayon]

Alright, I will now say, I am lost and confused on this issue. From a Canon Stand-Point... Who are the "Angels, Good Spirits, Nephlim, and/or other Goody-Goody good people. (Archons, Celestials, White Lighters, Eledrin, etc. etc. etc. using other gaming terms.)

And what is their status? Are there just not enough of them? Are they an "Extra-Planar" race vs. a "Supernatural" creature?


And doesn't the Minion War sound a lot like DnD's Blood War from 2nd edition on?

[eliakon]

Alright, I will now say, I am lost and confused on this issue. From a Canon Stand-Point... Who are the "Angels, Good Spirits, Nephlim, and/or other Goody-Goody good people. (Archons, Celestials, White Lighters, Eledrin, etc. etc. etc. using other gaming terms.)

And what is their status? Are there just not enough of them? Are they an "Extra-Planar" race vs. a "Supernatural" creature?


And doesn't the Minion War sound a lot like DnD's Blood War from 2nd edition on?

The "Angels" are vague
There are first and foremost the "Spirits of Light" a race of energy beings that come in four flavors. They are often referred to in the game as angels.
There are also some races that are 'creatures of light' for magic purposes. Some of these include the Guardians from Nightbane (possibly the Athanos...though that is never addressed in canon to my knowledge) The Sun Dogs from The Land of the Damned and similar races

And yes, the Minion War is more or less the Palladium version of the Blood War. Which shouldn't surprise anyone since the Demons/Devils rivaly was brought over from D&D when the game mutated from a D&D game into a home brew into the Palladium system.

[Tor]

That's why I figure there are 5 angels: 4spirits-of-light and 1 spirit-of-darkness.

Now wondering if there might be 3 other SoD breeds to compliment the Necrophim. If we say their element is shadow then I'm wondering what other kind of anti-elements could exist to make angels out of.

I seem to recall something in maybe the Three Galaxies sourcebook (dimension book 6) about a world of elementals and some hypothetical additional elements besides the basic 4... but I can't remember what they were. Or maybe it was Anvil Galaxy? (db5) will have to check...

Would also be interested in any possible Necrophim-Silhouette connections. Aren't the latter mentioned as possibly being from some Plane-of-Shadow?

We also know that Shadow Beasts hang out in Tartarus, a kingdom within the Mircallan void-Kingdom of Tophet.

Except that all of this is based on non-canon speculation and presumptions.

Wrong, I am basing these ideas on canon (that necrophim and spirits of light have both been called angels) and I am not presuming anything.

Simply expressing that I 'wonder' if there are SoD beings in existence is not 'presuming' anything, it is IMAGINING.

There is no canon statement that Necrophim are a 'spirit of darkness' to compliment the spirits of light'

These are astral beings by default, they are supernatural "entities", sounds spiritual to me. Do you disagree with my associating necrophim with darkness?

There is no canon statement that the Athanos really are connected to the Spirits of Light beyond appearance and their own myths

Oh boy, you really want to get into this? It's clear as day that they are connected in some way. The exact way they are connected is unclear though. The Athanatos don't have warlock magic so they're obv. very different, but the appearance is common-sense proof. Whether SoL are the 'Grigori' who impregnate the human mothers' fetuses or not is all up for grabs. Maybe they share a common creator, who knows, but there IS a link. Just like there is a clear link between Athanatos and Guardians. We just don't know what it is. When there is enough in common, coincidence is of minority liklihood.

There is no canon statement that the Necrophim are 'elemental' (shadow or otherwise)

I said 'if we say their element is shadow', not 'they are elemental beings and their element is shadow' so I'm not sure why you feel the need to declare this, as I did not make a statement as if this strong possibility were absolute fact.

Their element (if we opt to treat them as having one) could also be 'death'. Between the Shadows page 73 says 'also known as 'The Angels of Death' and 'Dark Angels' so it is apt to call them 1 or both Death/Dark related. Although that could also just be semantic since the basic Necrophim doesn't explicitly have any overt death/darkness abilities like the Athanatos based on them appears to. Speculation about potential Darkness/Death elemental traits is based on the Athanatos.

There is no canon explanations on what the 'plane of shadow' is and even if their is one such plane or multiple ones

page 57 of Shadows of Light (where they reprint the Shadow Beast along with some new abilities for them) called it "the Elemental Plane of Shadow", so that means there is only one. The use of the definite article in combination with a singular "Plane" confirms it. Otherwise it would say "an Elemental Plane of Shadow" or "the Elemental Planes of Shadow".

we don't actually honestly know for sure if there is only one elemental plane for the classical elements to be honest

As above, we can look at the vocabulary to determine singularity. Of course, there's no telling whether this 'Plane' is a singular dimension or a stacked-series like Dyval, I guess, so that's one possibility.

for more fun we know that the Guardians are a 'creature of light' (as are the Sun Dogs in LoD)....neither of which are Spirits of Light

Right, because Guardians are too physical to be spirits, they are not ghosts in their natural form like the Necrophim are. Spirits of Light and Necrophim are naturally astral creatures. The main thing against me here is aside from black skin and bad attitudes and there isn't much 'dark' or 'deathly' about Necrophim, that only seems to manifest in the Athanatos. The relation there seems inverse with the Light-Spirits, Athanatos seem weaker than SoL yet stronger than Necrophim.

its totally squarely in the realm of "I am making up random stuff to make my game cool" and not anything supported in anyway by canon....

No, what I am proposing is not 'random' stuff, it is reason-based probable conclusion-drawing based on the canon. It is not explicitly declared as set-in-stone by canon, but the canon does support it, in that I am building on the foundation of canon by exploring areas it does not cover and has left in mystery.

[Zamion138]

A newer statement/fluff about shadow beasts states the shadow beast have their own diminsion or plane as one of the demon or dyval comander has made a pact with their leaders for their support. So there is some form of shadow plane.

[eliakon]

There is no canon statement that Necrophim are a 'spirit of darkness' to compliment the spirits of light'

These are astral beings by default, they are supernatural "entities", sounds spiritual to me. Do you disagree with my associating necrophim with darkness?

I am disagreeing that the Necrophim have anything to do with Spirits of Light.

There is no canon statement that the Athanos really are connected to the Spirits of Light beyond appearance and their own myths

Oh boy, you really want to get into this? It's clear as day that they are connected in some way. The exact way they are connected is unclear though. The Athanatos don't have warlock magic so they're obv. very different, but the appearance is common-sense proof. Whether SoL are the 'Grigori' who impregnate the human mothers' fetuses or not is all up for grabs. Maybe they share a common creator, who knows, but there IS a link. Just like there is a clear link between Athanatos and Guardians. We just don't know what it is. When there is enough in common, coincidence is of minority liklihood.

Except that its NOT 'clear as day' that they are connected. That is a presumption that you can make of course. But there is no explicit statement that they are. They could be a totally unrelated, artificial construct. The fact that they look like them is not 'common-sense proof' any more than the fact that most races in palladium are humanoid proves that they are all related to humans.
There is also no CLEAR link beyond an organizational level between the Athanotos and the Guardians.
Now if you have a page number for a specific citation that explicitly links these I would be open to that....but the other is simply elevating one personal interpretation of unclear details to canon status.

There is no canon statement that the Necrophim are 'elemental' (shadow or otherwise)

I said 'if we say their element is shadow', not 'they are elemental beings and their element is shadow' so I'm not sure why you feel the need to declare this, as I did not make a statement as if this strong possibility were absolute fact.

Because the Spirits of Light/Angels are para-elemental beings?

Their element (if we opt to treat them as having one) could also be 'death'. Between the Shadows page 73 says 'also known as 'The Angels of Death' and 'Dark Angels' so it is apt to call them 1 or both Death/Dark related. Although that could also just be semantic since the basic Necrophim doesn't explicitly have any overt death/darkness abilities like the Athanatos based on them appears to. Speculation about potential Darkness/Death elemental traits is based on the Athanatos.

Which is making again the unfounded assumption that the two ARE indeed linked, and not just superficially similar.

There is no canon explanations on what the 'plane of shadow' is and even if their is one such plane or multiple ones

page 57 of Shadows of Light (where they reprint the Shadow Beast along with some new abilities for them) called it "the Elemental Plane of Shadow", so that means there is only one. The use of the definite article in combination with a singular "Plane" confirms it. Otherwise it would say "an Elemental Plane of Shadow" or "the Elemental Planes of Shadow".

Except that doesn't exclude things. Just because I am from planet Earth does not mean there is only one planet, nor that their is only one Earth.

we don't actually honestly know for sure if there is only one elemental plane for the classical elements to be honest

As above, we can look at the vocabulary to determine singularity. Of course, there's no telling whether this 'Plane' is a singular dimension or a stacked-series like Dyval, I guess, so that's one possibility.

Or we can again look at the vocabulary as NOT being exclusive at note that. (see above point)

for more fun we know that the Guardians are a 'creature of light' (as are the Sun Dogs in LoD)....neither of which are Spirits of Light

Right, because Guardians are too physical to be spirits, they are not ghosts in their natural form like the Necrophim are. Spirits of Light and Necrophim are naturally astral creatures. The main thing against me here is aside from black skin and bad attitudes and there isn't much 'dark' or 'deathly' about Necrophim, that only seems to manifest in the Athanatos. The relation there seems inverse with the Light-Spirits, Athanatos seem weaker than SoL yet stronger than Necrophim.

Except that Spirits of Light are not 'naturally astral creatures' they are semi-elemental energy beings. Only the Necrophim are Astral. So that is a false distinction.
So we have for our creatures of light
4 semi-elemental energy beings (Spirits of Light)
2 corporeal beings (Guardians, Sundogs)
1 possible corporeal being (Athanatos)
....none of them are naturally astral

<Edit> Looking for other creatures/races that might be 'creatures of light' I was pointed to
-Nymphs
-Amana
-Wingtips (I believe these are the most likely to qualify)
-Unicorns
... the point being that creature of light =/= angel =/= spirit of light
and that simply being nicknamed an angel does not make something related to angels.

[SirRobin]

the point being that creature of light =/= angel =/= spirit of light and that simply being nicknamed an angel does not make something related to angels.

If there is an "angelic" escalation maybe it would be better to go with a previously unexplored breed? I get the impression that the canon on it is rather iffy.

[Svartalf]

There won't be an "Angel Escalation"... in the Blood War, the powers of Good did not intervene, neither will they in this iteration.

[Zer0 Kay]

There is no canon statement that Necrophim are a 'spirit of darkness' to compliment the spirits of light'

These are astral beings by default, they are supernatural "entities", sounds spiritual to me. Do you disagree with my associating necrophim with darkness?

I am disagreeing that the Necrophim have anything to do with Spirits of Light.

There is no canon statement that the Athanos really are connected to the Spirits of Light beyond appearance and their own myths

Oh boy, you really want to get into this? It's clear as day that they are connected in some way. The exact way they are connected is unclear though. The Athanatos don't have warlock magic so they're obv. very different, but the appearance is common-sense proof. Whether SoL are the 'Grigori' who impregnate the human mothers' fetuses or not is all up for grabs. Maybe they share a common creator, who knows, but there IS a link. Just like there is a clear link between Athanatos and Guardians. We just don't know what it is. When there is enough in common, coincidence is of minority liklihood.

Except that its NOT 'clear as day' that they are connected. That is a presumption that you can make of course. But there is no explicit statement that they are. They could be a totally unrelated, artificial construct. The fact that they look like them is not 'common-sense proof' any more than the fact that most races in palladium are humanoid proves that they are all related to humans.
There is also no CLEAR link beyond an organizational level between the Athanotos and the Guardians.
Now if you have a page number for a specific citation that explicitly links these I would be open to that....but the other is simply elevating one personal interpretation of unclear details to canon status.

There is no canon statement that the Necrophim are 'elemental' (shadow or otherwise)

I said 'if we say their element is shadow', not 'they are elemental beings and their element is shadow' so I'm not sure why you feel the need to declare this, as I did not make a statement as if this strong possibility were absolute fact.

Because the Spirits of Light/Angels are para-elemental beings?

Their element (if we opt to treat them as having one) could also be 'death'. Between the Shadows page 73 says 'also known as 'The Angels of Death' and 'Dark Angels' so it is apt to call them 1 or both Death/Dark related. Although that could also just be semantic since the basic Necrophim doesn't explicitly have any overt death/darkness abilities like the Athanatos based on them appears to. Speculation about potential Darkness/Death elemental traits is based on the Athanatos.

Which is making again the unfounded assumption that the two ARE indeed linked, and not just superficially similar.

There is no canon explanations on what the 'plane of shadow' is and even if their is one such plane or multiple ones

page 57 of Shadows of Light (where they reprint the Shadow Beast along with some new abilities for them) called it "the Elemental Plane of Shadow", so that means there is only one. The use of the definite article in combination with a singular "Plane" confirms it. Otherwise it would say "an Elemental Plane of Shadow" or "the Elemental Planes of Shadow".

Except that doesn't exclude things. Just because I am from planet Earth does not mean there is only one planet, nor that their is only one Earth.

we don't actually honestly know for sure if there is only one elemental plane for the classical elements to be honest

As above, we can look at the vocabulary to determine singularity. Of course, there's no telling whether this 'Plane' is a singular dimension or a stacked-series like Dyval, I guess, so that's one possibility.

Or we can again look at the vocabulary as NOT being exclusive at note that. (see above point)

for more fun we know that the Guardians are a 'creature of light' (as are the Sun Dogs in LoD)....neither of which are Spirits of Light

Right, because Guardians are too physical to be spirits, they are not ghosts in their natural form like the Necrophim are. Spirits of Light and Necrophim are naturally astral creatures. The main thing against me here is aside from black skin and bad attitudes and there isn't much 'dark' or 'deathly' about Necrophim, that only seems to manifest in the Athanatos. The relation there seems inverse with the Light-Spirits, Athanatos seem weaker than SoL yet stronger than Necrophim.

Except that Spirits of Light are not 'naturally astral creatures' they are semi-elemental energy beings. Only the Necrophim are Astral. So that is a false distinction.
So we have for our creatures of light
4 semi-elemental energy beings (Spirits of Light)
2 corporeal beings (Guardians, Sundogs)
1 possible corporeal being (Athanatos)
....none of them are naturally astral

<Edit> Looking for other creatures/races that might be 'creatures of light' I was pointed to
-Nymphs
-Amana
-Wingtips (I believe these are the most likely to qualify)
-Unicorns
... the point being that creature of light =/= angel =/= spirit of light
and that simply being nicknamed an angel does not make something related to angels.

Angel may be a race but all angel means is messenger of a god and not even necessarily YHWH as El is the same as god in that it is nonspecific.

So maybe all the angels that are fighting are just the creatures the gods use to send messages and I don't think AT&T, Sprint and Verizon count.

[Pepsi Jedi]

The CS are the angels coming over the hill fellas. Those winged shapes flying in at high speed? SuperSAMUS.

Humanity is stepping up to the plate and swinging for the fence.

[HWalsh]

There won't be an "Angel Escalation"... in the Blood War, the powers of Good did not intervene, neither will they in this iteration.

There is no reason to completely copy the Blood War beat by beat.

[Zer0 Kay]

The CS are the angels coming over the hill fellas. Those winged shapes flying in at high speed? SuperSAMUS.

Humanity is stepping up to the plate and swinging for the fence.

CS would as readily call themselves angels as they would messengers of god... Oh wait their the same thing. CS would never accept or claim to be such.

[kaid]

One other reasons the forces of light may be holding back is right now the major demon factions are going after each other tooth and claw there is something to be said for letting those forces bleed themselves dry and only THEN jump in and finish one or both sides. Until then I assume some low key support/help/advice and generally help those who help themselves.

Also to note in the Armageddon unlimited book there are some celestial based hero types and heroes granted divine powers/weapons to fight the factions of the minion war.

[Pepsi Jedi]

The CS are the angels coming over the hill fellas. Those winged shapes flying in at high speed? SuperSAMUS.

Humanity is stepping up to the plate and swinging for the fence.

CS would as readily call themselves angels as they would messengers of god... Oh wait their the same thing. CS would never accept or claim to be such.

Isn't the last book in the series now called "The Coalition States: Saviors Of Humanity" ?

[SolCannibal]

Honestly, the Horsemen are called that for the sake of convenience and imagery, no more, no less, effort whatsoever was made in Rifts Africa to imply anything else - World Slayers from Chaos Earth: Creatures of Chaos are also called "apocalyptic demons", so the title means as much or as little as a GM feels like.
More or less the same goes for the angels in Conversion Book, that are mostly a band of benign elemental beings grouped around their common theme of "battling evil" instead of the elements per se. If one feels a need for a biblical connection is required, the Book of Revelations could be a psychic's vision of another world's destruction by the four, then interpreted and written as prophecy and warning to those of his faith.

"Forces of Light" has never shown, afaik, a greater meaning in the setting than "those beings, humble or mighty, willing to fight and stop the most catastrophically epic @$$holes of the cosmos when push comes to shove". It's telling that you can find definitely benign beings like Brahma or Ahura Mazda alongside jerks like Zeus, beside self-serving gloryhounds like Ares, Indra or Verethragna, counted among their ranks.

[Zer0 Kay]

The CS are the angels coming over the hill fellas. Those winged shapes flying in at high speed? SuperSAMUS.

Humanity is stepping up to the plate and swinging for the fence.

CS would as readily call themselves angels as they would messengers of god... Oh wait their the same thing. CS would never accept or claim to be such.

Isn't the last book in the series now called "The Coalition States: Saviors Of Humanity" ?

Dunnoh, just saying they'd never claim to be angels.

[HWalsh]

"Forces of Light" has never shown, afaik, a greater meaning in the setting than "those beings, humble or mighty, willing to fight and stop the most catastrophically epic @$$holes of the cosmos when push comes to shove".

Save for when push comes to shove and millions of lives hang in the balance. Then they don't even make a cameo.

[eliakon]

"Forces of Light" has never shown, afaik, a greater meaning in the setting than "those beings, humble or mighty, willing to fight and stop the most catastrophically epic @$$holes of the cosmos when push comes to shove".

Save for when push comes to shove and millions of lives hang in the balance. Then they don't even make a cameo.

Except of course to stop an entire planet from being stolen into Hell.....
Oh, and they have a FoB in Hades.....
They don't have to be the universe's police force going around breaking up every fight.....if they could there wouldn't be evil in the universe now would there? I mean its not like they have anything else on their plates right? No Splugorth, no evil gods, no doomsday cults trying to free the various imprisoned beings like the Old Ones and the Shatterers.....Oh wait.....
Seriously I think they probably are just spread thin and to busy to get involved in this particular battle. Which is okay because there are plenty of hero's on Rifts Earth that will take up the gauntlet (They have already seen that when the Four Horsemen were summoned) so they can leave it in capable hands and do what needs to be done where it needs doing.

[Zer0 Kay]

If were talking as if the game is a game... it doesn't matter. If were talking Christian, they're messengers. The warriors only partake when the event occurring will completely derail the Kingdom. If He can keep plans on course with the actions of man then there is no reason to intervene. To intervene would be to interfere with free will. He doesn't make those people do those actions he just knows what action they'd take, so it is still free will.

[SolCannibal]

"Forces of Light" has never shown, afaik, a greater meaning in the setting than "those beings, humble or mighty, willing to fight and stop the most catastrophically epic @$$holes of the cosmos when push comes to shove".

Save for when push comes to shove and millions of lives hang in the balance. Then they don't even make a cameo.

Except of course to stop an entire planet from being stolen into Hell.....
Oh, and they have a FoB in Hades.....
They don't have to be the universe's police force going around breaking up every fight.....if they could there wouldn't be evil in the universe now would there? I mean its not like they have anything else on their plates right? No Splugorth, no evil gods, no doomsday cults trying to free the various imprisoned beings like the Old Ones and the Shatterers.....Oh wait.....
Seriously I think they probably are just spread thin and to busy to get involved in this particular battle. Which is okay because there are plenty of hero's on Rifts Earth that will take up the gauntlet (They have already seen that when the Four Horsemen were summoned) so they can leave it in capable hands and do what needs to be done where it needs doing.

Yes, this is what i mostly meant. Thanks for clearing it up.

[Tor]

A newer statement/fluff about shadow beasts states the shadow beast have their own diminsion or plane
one of the demon or dyval comander has made a pact with their leaders for their support
there is some form of shadow plane.

I do not like to call it fluff, it is simply non-numerical description. Seems to fall in line with previous text, Shadow Beasts have been referenced from being from a separate plane before this.

I am disagreeing that the Necrophim have anything to do with Spirits of Light.

Then you are wrong. They are both beings native to the Astral Plane, which means they do have something to do with each other, just as each has something to do with Tarantuloids.

Beyond that, both are clearly linked to the Athanatos in some way, so there is at least a probable indirect link there.

Except that its NOT 'clear as day' that they are connected. That is a presumption that you can make of course.

It's clear to me, I don't consider this a presumption, I consider it a deduction.

there is no explicit statement that they are

We do not always need those. Clearly both are involved with the Athanatos in some unclarified way.

That may even be that the mysterious Grigori simply knew about Spirits of Light and Necrophim and modelled the Athanatos based on their forms.

All that we know is that there is a clear link between their appearances, and that is enough to say there is some form of link.

They could be a totally unrelated, artificial construct.

They could be artificial constructs, yes, and perhaps unrelated by blood, but definitely related in appearance.

The fact that they look like them is not 'common-sense proof' any more than the fact that most races in palladium are humanoid proves that they are all related to humans.

I believe our argument may be based on my meaning a broader thing when using 'related' and you assuming a narrower thing when using related. I do not mean genetically related. I do not necessarily think the SoL/Necrophim are the parents of the Athanatos, though that's a possibility.

There is also no CLEAR link beyond an organizational level between the Athanotos and the Guardians.

Sure there are. 4 of the 5 kinds of Athanatos share the Guardian's powers over light.

There is similarly a link between Athanatos and Nightbane (they both use Talents) and Nightbane and Dark Guardians (same).

Now if you have a page number for a specific citation that explicitly links these I would be open to that....but the other is simply elevating one personal interpretation of unclear details to canon status.

The explicit link is the undeniable shared appearances.

the unfounded assumption that the two ARE indeed linked, and not just superficially similar.

Superficial similarity is the link I am talking about.

There is no canon explanations on what the 'plane of shadow' is and even if their is one such plane or multiple ones

page 57 of Shadows of Light (where they reprint the Shadow Beast along with some new abilities for them) called it "the Elemental Plane of Shadow", so that means there is only one. The use of the definite article in combination with a singular "Plane" confirms it. Otherwise it would say "an Elemental Plane of Shadow" or "the Elemental Planes of Shadow".

Except that doesn't exclude things.
Just because I am from planet Earth does not mean there is only one planet, nor that their is only one Earth.

You did not include "the" in your example phrase.

If there are multiple Earths then you would be from 'a planet Earth' or 'one of the Earths' or something like that.

You would not be from 'THE planet Earth' because that implies there is only one.

It is bad grammar to use singular definite articles if there are multiple things sharing the description.

'I am a human' is fine. Or 'I am one of the humans'. But "I am the human" would only make
sense if we were already talking about a human ("which human stole my cabbage?") otherwise without context it is like I am declaring myself the only human.

we can again look at the vocabulary as NOT being exclusive at note that. (see above point)

The vocabulary is exclusionary.

If someone says "I am the president of the United States" it means there is only one current president. Although previous presidents sometimes get a 'Mr. President' nod, they would self-describe "I was the president".

If 2 presidents were elected, someone would say "I am one of the presidents" or "I am a president".

Since multiple presents exist simultaneously for multiple nations, "I am the president" would be technically wrong UNLESS the context was already established (which is often the case, since people usually know POTUS is meant)

Spirits of Light are not 'naturally astral creatures'
they are semi-elemental energy beings.
Only the Necrophim are Astral.

Originally in CB1 you would be right, although that they manifest via Ectoplasm was still suggestive of their true nature.

Dragons and Gods page 78 goes into this further. It says they are more frequently encountered in the Astral Plane. They are also twice as powerful there. Based on what we have seen with many gods, things tend to be stronger in their home base...

Although I guess the Living Nightmares are an exception to that Perhaps where one originates is not always their home base...

But I do think if they are stronger-as-astral that is a strong argument that the form-of-energy they are is Astral.

So we have for our creatures of light
4 semi-elemental energy beings (Spirits of Light)
2 corporeal beings (Guardians, Sundogs)
1 possible corporeal being (Athanatos)
....none of them are naturally astral

I'm not sure why you are talking about this, SoL and CoL are different things, it's squares and rectangles.

point being that creature of light =/= angel =/= spirit of light

I do not know why you are making this point, I never equated any of these 3 terms with each other.

I consider spirits of light to be a sub-group of creatures of light. I consider spirits of light to also be a sub-group of angels (as I do Necrophim). Venn diagram territory.

simply being nicknamed an angel does not make something related to angels.

Ah, but who is to say that the Spirits of Light are not merely nicknamed? What makes the text angel-calling the light spirits stronger than the text angel-calling the Necrophim?

Necrophim do not merely have a 'referred to as Dark Angels' note, they are actually called angels throughout their description.

CS would as readily call themselves angels as they would messengers of god... Oh wait their the same thing. CS would never accept or claim to be such.

[/quote][/quote]
Not sure if the CS is so paranoid of mythology that they would abstain from any reference to it in their naming of things.

They made Hellion and Centaur skelebots after all.

Though I think Karl dislikes them. Though his hostility does not seem to extend to the Hellraiser.

[Zer0 Kay]

A newer statement/fluff about shadow beasts states the shadow beast have their own diminsion or plane
one of the demon or dyval comander has made a pact with their leaders for their support
there is some form of shadow plane.

I do not like to call it fluff, it is simply non-numerical description. Seems to fall in line with previous text, Shadow Beasts have been referenced from being from a separate plane before this.

I am disagreeing that the Necrophim have anything to do with Spirits of Light.
Then you are wrong. They are both beings native to the Astral Plane, which means they do have something to do with each other, just as each has something to do with Tarantuloids.

Beyond that, both are clearly linked to the Athanatos in some way, so there is at least a probable indirect link there.

Except that its NOT 'clear as day' that they are connected. That is a presumption that you can make of course.

It's clear to me, I don't consider this a presumption, I consider it a deduction.

there is no explicit statement that they are

We do not always need those. Clearly both are involved with the Athanatos in some unclarified way.

That may even be that the mysterious Grigori simply knew about Spirits of Light and Necrophim and modelled the Athanatos based on their forms.

All that we know is that there is a clear link between their appearances, and that is enough to say there is some form of link.

They could be a totally unrelated, artificial construct.

They could be artificial constructs, yes, and perhaps unrelated by blood, but definitely related in appearance.

The fact that they look like them is not 'common-sense proof' any more than the fact that most races in palladium are humanoid proves that they are all related to humans.

I believe our argument may be based on my meaning a broader thing when using 'related' and you assuming a narrower thing when using related. I do not mean genetically related. I do not necessarily think the SoL/Necrophim are the parents of the Athanatos, though that's a possibility.

There is also no CLEAR link beyond an organizational level between the Athanotos and the Guardians.

Sure there are. 4 of the 5 kinds of Athanatos share the Guardian's powers over light.

There is similarly a link between Athanatos and Nightbane (they both use Talents) and Nightbane and Dark Guardians (same).

Now if you have a page number for a specific citation that explicitly links these I would be open to that....but the other is simply elevating one personal interpretation of unclear details to canon status.

The explicit link is the undeniable shared appearances.

Because the Spirits of Light/Angels are para-elemental beings?

Their element (if we opt to treat them as having one) could also be 'death'. Between the Shadows page 73 says 'also known as 'The Angels of Death' and 'Dark Angels' so it is apt to call them 1 or both Death/Dark related. Although that could also just be semantic since the basic Necrophim doesn't explicitly have any overt death/darkness abilities like the Athanatos based on them appears to. Speculation about potential Darkness/Death elemental traits is based on the Athanatos.

the unfounded assumption that the two ARE indeed linked, and not just superficially similar.

Superficial similarity is the link I am talking about.

There is no canon explanations on what the 'plane of shadow' is and even if their is one such plane or multiple ones

page 57 of Shadows of Light (where they reprint the Shadow Beast along with some new abilities for them) called it "the Elemental Plane of Shadow", so that means there is only one. The use of the definite article in combination with a singular "Plane" confirms it. Otherwise it would say "an Elemental Plane of Shadow" or "the Elemental Planes of Shadow".

Except that doesn't exclude things.
Just because I am from planet Earth does not mean there is only one planet, nor that their is only one Earth.

You did not include "the" in your example phrase.

If there are multiple Earths then you would be from 'a planet Earth' or 'one of the Earths' or something like that.

You would not be from 'THE planet Earth' because that implies there is only one.

It is bad grammar to use singular definite articles if there are multiple things sharing the description.

'I am a human' is fine. Or 'I am one of the humans'. But "I am the human" would only make
sense if we were already talking about a human ("which human stole my cabbage?") otherwise without context it is like I am declaring myself the only human.

we can again look at the vocabulary as NOT being exclusive at note that. (see above point)

The vocabulary is exclusionary.

If someone says "I am the president of the United States" it means there is only one current president. Although previous presidents sometimes get a 'Mr. President' nod, they would self-describe "I was the president".

If 2 presidents were elected, someone would say "I am one of the presidents" or "I am a president".

Since multiple presents exist simultaneously for multiple nations, "I am the president" would be technically wrong UNLESS the context was already established (which is often the case, since people usually know POTUS is meant)

Spirits of Light are not 'naturally astral creatures'
they are semi-elemental energy beings.
Only the Necrophim are Astral.

So we have for our creatures of light
4 semi-elemental energy beings (Spirits of Light)
2 corporeal beings (Guardians, Sundogs)
1 possible corporeal being (Athanatos)
....none of them are naturally astral

I'm not sure why you are talking about this, SoL and CoL are different things, it's squares and rectangles.

point being that creature of light =/= angel =/= spirit of light

I do not know why you are making this point, I never equated any of these 3 terms with each other.

I consider spirits of light to be a sub-group of creatures of light. I consider spirits of light to also be a sub-group of angels (as I do Necrophim). Venn diagram territory.

simply being nicknamed an angel does not make something related to angels.

Ah, but who is to say that the Spirits of Light are not merely nicknamed? What makes the text angel-calling the light spirits stronger than the text angel-calling the Necrophim?

Necrophim do not merely have a 'referred to as Dark Angels' note, they are actually called angels throughout their description.

CS would as readily call themselves angels as they would messengers of god... Oh wait their the same thing. CS would never accept or claim to be such.

Not sure if the CS is so paranoid of mythology that they would abstain from any reference to it in their naming of things.

They made Hellion and Centaur skelebots after all.

Though I think Karl dislikes them. Though his hostility does not seem to extend to the Hellraiser.

IIRC the monster skelebots were made in small numbers and are used outside of CS territory so as not to associate monsters with the CS to the CS populace.

[wadou25]

Honestly, the Horsemen are called that for the sake of convenience and imagery, no more, no less, effort whatsoever was made in Rifts Africa to imply anything else - World Slayers from Chaos Earth: Creatures of Chaos are also called "apocalyptic demons", so the title means as much or as little as a GM feels like.
More or less the same goes for the angels in Conversion Book, that are mostly a band of benign elemental beings grouped around their common theme of "battling evil" instead of the elements per se. If one feels a need for a biblical connection is required, the Book of Revelations could be a psychic's vision of another world's destruction by the four, then interpreted and written as prophecy and warning to those of his faith.

"Forces of Light" has never shown, afaik, a greater meaning in the setting than "those beings, humble or mighty, willing to fight and stop the most catastrophically epic @$$holes of the cosmos when push comes to shove". It's telling that you can find definitely benign beings like Brahma or Ahura Mazda alongside jerks like Zeus, beside self-serving gloryhounds like Ares, Indra or Verethragna, counted among their ranks.

I figured the federation of magic would become a cesspool for dyval nd demonic influence. Zeus trying to start his own cult would empower dozens of air warlocks and ley line walkers to fight for him and team up with the lords of magic to root out this evil. I could definatly see the greek gods joining in if the Olympian club fought for one of the sides of hell. Just to clear their names.

[SolCannibal]

I figured the federation of magic would become a cesspool for dyval nd demonic influence. Zeus trying to start his own cult would empower dozens of air warlocks and ley line walkers to fight for him and team up with the lords of magic to root out this evil. I could definetly see the greek gods joining in if the Olympian club fought for one of the sides of hell. Just to clear their names.

Who knows, it might - there are at least a Baal-rog, a Rakshasa and a Deevyl between Alistair's counselors, not to mention a Corrupt, the identity's of whose master/mentor, the so-called "Liberator" is a complete mystery, so the potential for attrition and conflict already exists. About the Lords of Magic intervening, i don't think they will until truly pressed against the wall. That's just the way things roll with them, whatever acts for good (or at least order & stabilty) they do are passive and indirect in general.

The Olympian Club joining the War, at least knowingly, is another thing i don't think is very probable - while quite mercenary and self-serving, they enjoy playing hero to underdogs and the Minion War is about forces far bigger and vicious than they would ever be, not to mention that if Trellacryth doesn't care for supporting Dragonwrith, it's doubtful he would help demons or deevyls interests without something big for him and the club in the bargain. Also, both Melia Strongoak and Ylliriel (Athena the Wise & Venus the Adventurer) have had bad experiences with demons in the past (hunted like a cornered animal by a demon lord in Hades before being rescued by club members in a mission and homeworld overrun/destroyed by a demon horde in her teens resulting in 50 years of exodus for her people, respectively) and might be leery, to say the least of actually working for such beings.

Now Dark Olympus....that's a whole different matter indeed and might spread far more misery and get the attention of Zeus and his ilk. That said it's a big question if they would ally with any one side or try to exploit the conflict in some way to their own benefit.

[Tor]

Zeus would probably be distracted helping White Raven attack Atlantis during the chaos and end up buffooning into helping the bad guys. He is practicing how to say "I didn't know she was my daughter" with a straight face to Hera as we speak.

[SolCannibal]

Zeus would probably be distracted helping White Raven attack Atlantis during the chaos and end up buffooning into helping the bad guys. He is practicing how to say "I didn't know she was my daughter" with a straight face to Hera as we speak.

Or maybe shifting the operation (and blame) to Enlil, another storm god with a thing for occasionally crossing Atlantis and causing mayhem.

[Tor]

I wonder if Enlil's wife would let him have a piece of that bird.

[SolCannibal]

I wonder if Enlil's wife would let him have a piece of that bird.

Well, there's this about her. But mostly her function's and mythic role seem to be subsidiary to Enlil's, so i wouldn't expect something like an Ishtar/Innana, Ereshkigal, Hera out of that one. Though making her Lilith under another name/title and setting up a "dangerous bedfellows" relationship backstory between her and Enlil could be very interesting for a game.

[Warmaster40k]

So why don't the angels get involved, well we got two theories. One they are just not that many for a straight up fight. So they work behind the scenes empowering the mortals. This can be seen in things such as Crusaders of Light, the Guardians in Nightbane, and that other Angelic type in Shadows of Light. They also made sure that The Book of Heroes were found.
The other option is darker. Angels have no will, they can't act unless given a directive from the head cheese. Free Will is the gift given only to the mortal races, no matter how long lived. So why can't they act, well because He is dead, it's why his clergy have no power, it's why the Host have not mobilized since putting the Old Ones to sleep. Sure some of them empower some mortals but that them acting on some old code. Why is He dead, well it turns out, trying to remove all the other religions, and in effect started other gods to death does not make a lot of friends. So the other pantheons got together and committed Deicide. There is one bright spot, this moment truly cemented the truce, the truce has two main rules, one do not directly interfere with the affairs of mortals, two deities will not kill deities. So why is this important. If you read any of the minion wars what's the most important fact. The deevil/demon lords are not personally getting involved. But they are getting close to the point where no more tolerance is given. Any way it's just a idea.

[SolCannibal]

So why don't the angels get involved, well we got two theories. One they are just not that many for a straight up fight. So they work behind the scenes empowering the mortals. This can be seen in things such as Crusaders of Light, the Guardians in Nightbane, and that other Angelic type in Shadows of Light. They also made sure that The Book of Heroes were found.
The other option is darker. Angels have no will, they can't act unless given a directive from the head cheese. Free Will is the gift given only to the mortal races, no matter how long lived. So why can't they act, well because He is dead, it's why his clergy have no power, it's why the Host have not mobilized since putting the Old Ones to sleep. Sure some of them empower some mortals but that them acting on some old code. Why is He dead, well it turns out, trying to remove all the other religions, and in effect started other gods to death does not make a lot of friends. So the other pantheons got together and committed Deicide. There is one bright spot, this moment truly cemented the truce, the truce has two main rules, one do not directly interfere with the affairs of mortals, two deities will not kill deities. So why is this important. If you read any of the minion wars what's the most important fact. The deevil/demon lords are not personally getting involved. But they are getting close to the point where no more tolerance is given. Any way it's just a idea.

Option 3 - two armies fighting each other cause loads of colateral damage, three fighting each other just ups the ante of destruction and misery. In such a situation, leading a number of guerrilla and sabotage operations, as a way to disperse, waylay and erode the destructive capabilities of the powers in conflict might be much less destructive, not to mention more survivable for innocent bystanders whose worlds are suddenly turned into battlegrounds of the War.

[Tor]

Possible explanations for where angels are:

Look how much money you can get for selling an angel on Atlantis page 136.

Shifters or Summoners who summoned those things and then sold them into slavery could turn a tidy profit. So maybe most of these things are just enslaved?

If you get at minimum 200k then you just need to find a less expensive way to pacify them to turn a profit. You need something other than battle-of-wills since you are going to let go of that once you sell it to a new owner. The BoW is just what you do initially to control it until you get your other restraints on.

Investing in Zombitron parasites (Atlantis 116) could be a way to do this. Unlike Mind Slugs it does not have a "not effective on supernatural beings and creatures of magic" disclaimer, so presumably it should work. They're also cheaper.

Initially, the cost for a pair means you're in the hole 100K if you only get minimal returns on a pair of angels. On the other hand, if you sell angels for the average amount (700K each) then you make 450K per angel (sell a pair for 1.4 mil, buy pair of zombitrons for 500K, turn 900K profit).

That's just buying zombitrons in small amounts direcly from the supplier too. Unlike the Mind Slug, you can actually use a mated pair to breed your own, which would really cut down on the cost of enslaving your summoned angels and turning them over to the slave market.

The high savings throws an angels might have are not a problem at all. If you initially win the battle of wills (about the only safe way to try attaching zombitrons to a Spirit of Light, IMO) then you can simply demand to be informed whether or not they have been zombified. Even if they initially save, you can just keep it on them until they fail.

This can also be sped up by stacking multiple Zombitrons on the angel. There's no upper limit and each one gives a cumulative penalty to the save. The need for multiple zombitrons is also temporary: once they fail a save you can then remove all but one (reuse them on the next angel) and they will remain entranced.

There are some logistical problems, of course. Being HP creatures (non-MDC) there's a risk of your zombitron getting destroyed by accident if your angel is ever hit with attack, even if it's a non-MD one. For that reason, if you could hook up the angel in some armor or wearing a force field to protect the parasite it could be helpful. I'm not sure if there's a way to enchant parasites into MDC, were that possible it would be nice to do that.

Also the smaller angels (Cherubs, air guys) probably can't fit that many on them at once... but even to a kid, a tennis ball is pretty small, you could easily stick on 20 to guarantee a save-fail, and you really only need 1 tennis ball in the long run.

[Glistam]

All the spirits of light were stuck in the Arcadia dimension from the latest Rifter. The warlocks there have the ability to summon spirits of light (angels), but the rules of that dimension prohibit any outgoing travel for the last 2,000 years. So that's what's happened. They've slowly been sucked into an alternate dimension with no way out until recently, and now that they're out they need to "catch up" on what's going on before they interfere.

[SolCannibal]

All the spirits of light were stuck in the Arcadia dimension from the latest Rifter. The warlocks there have the ability to summon spirits of light (angels), but the rules of that dimension prohibit any outgoing travel for the last 2,000 years. So that's what's happened. They've slowly been sucked into an alternate dimension with no way out until recently, and now that they're out they need to "catch up" on what's going on before they interfere.

Arcadia? Any relation to the idyllic realm?

[Glistam]

All the spirits of light were stuck in the Arcadia dimension from the latest Rifter. The warlocks there have the ability to summon spirits of light (angels), but the rules of that dimension prohibit any outgoing travel for the last 2,000 years. So that's what's happened. They've slowly been sucked into an alternate dimension with no way out until recently, and now that they're out they need to "catch up" on what's going on before they interfere.

Arcadia? Any relation to the idyllic realm?

I'm still reading through the article, but when I saw the special ability of their Warlocks I was reminded of this thread, so I thought I'd post here with the idea.

[Tor]

Which number is the latest Rifter with Arcadia? Is this a canon dimension? Was also unaware that warlocks could summon SoLs.

[eliakon]

No Arcadia is unofficial.