Minion War: Where are the angels?

[SirRobin]

My apologies if this has been asked before. I haven't p&p rpg'd in years but still buy the Rifts books because I like the ideas, artwork, etc... Picked up Megaverse in Flames and I keep finding myself asking the same question. Where are the angels? Well, seraphim or whatever else they are called. Maybe I missed the section about it in other books like Breakout.

If the infernal supernatural have their own dimensions then shouldn't there be some angelic supernatural dimensions too? I imagine at least one of them would take a dim enough view on the Minion War that they decide to make their own moves too. Of course they might take as dismissive a view of mortals as the infernal do so actually make the conflict even more destructive. I am surprised they haven't made a larger appearance yet.

Your thoughts?

If I'm just missing it could someone point me to the right book?

[Tor]

Shadows of Light leaves me to believe that they and the Necrophim are too busy impregnating human women to get involved.

The 2 dimension books for Hades and Dyval imply that Thoth is involved and he is a very capable angel-summoner, so there wouldn't be any excuse for them to stay away...

Although both sides have capable Summoner OCCs working for them and may have simply mass-summoned and mass-executed a huge segment of angels, making them too few in number to help? Weren't they already endangered?

Maybe they're all hiding in anti-summon protection circles to prevent this tactic, which would also prevent their use by forces of good.

[SirRobin]

I found it brought up on one of the last pages of Megaverse in Flames. I think it could be expanded on, a lot, but at least the topic is brought up.

[taalismn]

Where angels fear to tread, indeed.

[Rallan]

Staying the hell out of it because nobody likes it when an RPG metaplot event fixes itself with a deus ex machina ending.

[The Beast]

Where are the angels?

I got hungry.

[Killer Cyborg]

Staying the hell out of it because nobody likes it when an RPG metaplot event fixes itself with a deus ex machina ending.

Sounds likely.

[taalismn]

Where are the angels?

I got hungry.

Tastes like chicken?

[Blue_Lion]

Maybe they are just hoping the two wipe each other out. Besides what draws people to faith more than a hell on earth.
Priest of light are in a recruitment frenzy. What a demon threatens your village fallow the teachings of the all mighty X and be granted the power to protect your home.

[glitterboy2098]

the impression i get of the spirits of light is that there aren't nearly as many of them as there are demons and deevils.. so presumably they'd have to be a lot more careful. probably working behind the scenes in the various places the demons/deevils are operating in, setting up local groups able to stand against them.

[Glistam]

the impression i get of the spirits of light is that there aren't nearly as many of them as there are demons and deevils.. so presumably they'd have to be a lot more careful. probably working behind the scenes in the various places the demons/deevils are operating in, setting up local groups able to stand against them.

Yeah, this is what I remember and believe. I find it unfortunate that there seems to be such an inbalance between the amount of supernatural evil and supernatural good in the Megaverse.

[Fyrpower]

I'm guessing none of the writer's like writing about supernatural good entities and beings, there is a serious lacking by a huge margin (with the exception of gods) in this area, especially if you wanted to play selfish and evil characters.

[Sureshot]

Staying the hell out of it because nobody likes it when an RPG metaplot event fixes itself with a deus ex machina ending.

Sort of like Siege on Tolkien.

It would have been nice to see the angels working in the shadows. One of things that appear in the books ever now and then. Is a powerful evil organization with unlimited resources run by a even powerful leader hidden in plain sight and no and I mean no one not even the gods notice them. Why not do the same with angels and organizations they run or control. Seems kind of dumb that deevils and demons run rampant yet the supernatural forces of good stay out of the picture.

[SirRobin]

Staying the hell out of it because nobody likes it when an RPG metaplot event fixes itself with a deus ex machina ending.

I don't think of it so much as a deus ex machina as a potentially greater escalation to the war. If there are infernal dimensions then there should be some angelic ones too. At least one of them is probably going to get miffed enough to do something about some infernals starting a megaversal war.

However, who is to say they are not as disdainful of mortals as the infernals? Unlike the infernals that expect to conquer, these angelics may expect to be obeyed. What happens when Prosek tells an uninvited bossy angelic "advisor" to get stuffed?

Maybe these angelics will decide "its for your own good" and decide to pull their own takeover? I think it could open some interesting story, tech, and art possibilities.

How about your player characters running into an angelic commando team? An angelic "advisor" arrives to "help" a local town and decides to "guide" the locals. Whether they want the guidance on how they should be living their lives or not.

[HWalsh]

Staying the hell out of it because nobody likes it when an RPG metaplot event fixes itself with a deus ex machina ending.

I don't think of it so much as a deus ex machina as a potentially greater escalation to the war. If there are infernal dimensions then there should be some angelic ones too. At least one of them is probably going to get miffed enough to do something about some infernals starting a megaversal war.

However, who is to say they are not as disdainful of mortals as the infernals? Unlike the infernals that expect to conquer, these angelics may expect to be obeyed. What happens when Prosek tells an uninvited bossy angelic "advisor" to get stuffed?

Maybe these angelics will decide "its for your own good" and decide to pull their own takeover? I think it could open some interesting story, tech, and art possibilities.

How about your player characters running into an angelic commando team? An angelic "advisor" arrives to "help" a local town and decides to "guide" the locals. Whether they want the guidance on how they should be living their lives or not.

It is simply a long standing rule in most fiction...

Demons can do all kinds of things... Angels have to always stay out of it.

I think it is because, for some reason, companies don't like showing off incredibly powerful "good" entities. Mostly because:

A) The PC's are supposed to be the incredibly powers "good" entities, and with bigger, more powerful, good entities around PC's might ask, "Why do we have to do this?"

B) A lot of people like to play evil and/or selfish characters, and such players feel bad if there is definitively good guys out there to oppose them. Nobody likes being straight up told, in a purely non-subjective manner, that they are evil.

[Tor]

Staying the hell out of it because nobody likes it when an RPG metaplot event fixes itself with a deus ex machina ending.

Sort of like Siege on Tolkien.

Let the man RIP he gave us such wonderful novels.

Srsly tho, perhaps angels play a Dweomer-like or Lazlo-like role (using the Tolkeen analogy) where they will be on the sidelines helping to evacuate innocents who don't want to participate in the conflict.

I'm sure most angels would love seeings demons and de("e")vils killing each other off, but if they could stop them from using other innocent races as pawns in their game without endangering themselves or unbalancing the scales too much, they probably would.

In some cases it might be good to allow pawns though. If we look at the conflict in 3 Galaxies, it seems that the use of pawns is all that's allowing Dyval to keep up a fight against the Demons since it seems like Demons got a heck of a lot more assets in Outbreak.

[taalismn]

Don't expect the Gods/Goddesses/Spirits of Light to act too overtly in this war; as HWalsh points out, there's a lot more drama if the PCs find themselves as the last/only hope between the powers of darkness and total defeat, than if they just fight long enough to run a summoning, then back away/get shouldered aside because 'the big boys are here to handle things'.

"Now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb."--Rick Moranis

[Dragon Mage]

There are spirits of light fighting a gorilla style war in Hades right now. Its in one of the rifters.

[gaby]

Well I say the Angels are helping by empowered good people to resist the demons and devils,ther also planing to put nukes in hades and dyval to forever slay them,in big numbers,but must wait for the Right time to act,for maximum losses to both.

They can also wokr in keeping the PF,s Old Ones asleep.

[HWalsh]

I think a chance to have an OCC based on having a person empowered by an Angelic host was seriously missed and they should really put that in a future issue of the Rifter.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I think a chance to have an OCC based on having a person empowered by an Angelic host was seriously missed and they should really put that in a future issue of the Rifter.

They have one, it was in armageddon unlimited. Crusader of Light. The minion war broke out in Heroes Unlimited before Rifts Earth, and the forces of light apparently focused their attention there--prehaps the reason they arn't acting in Rifts Earth is they have already written it off.

[eliakon]

I think a chance to have an OCC based on having a person empowered by an Angelic host was seriously missed and they should really put that in a future issue of the Rifter.

They have one, it was in armageddon unlimited. Crusader of Light. The minion war broke out in Heroes Unlimited before Rifts Earth, and the forces of light apparently focused their attention there--prehaps the reason they arn't acting in Rifts Earth is they have already written it off.

Or because Its not a world that either side is likely to be allowed to KEEP. The Angels don't have to stop them....the rest of the bad guys will gang up on the winners if anyone tries to monopolize Rifts Earth....but some place like Palladium, or Hero's Earth isn't so "lucky" and is more likely to get their finite resources.....just my two cents there.

[Tor]

It's hard to picture a mere Angel being strong enough to empower someone like that... they may be on par with or even stronger than Greater Demons but I'm not sure if they're on par with Demon Lords...

Maybe notable ones like the mysterious Lokum...

[Shark_Force]

I think a chance to have an OCC based on having a person empowered by an Angelic host was seriously missed and they should really put that in a future issue of the Rifter.

They have one, it was in armageddon unlimited. Crusader of Light. The minion war broke out in Heroes Unlimited before Rifts Earth, and the forces of light apparently focused their attention there--prehaps the reason they arn't acting in Rifts Earth is they have already written it off.

Or because Its not a world that either side is likely to be allowed to KEEP. The Angels don't have to stop them....the rest of the bad guys will gang up on the winners if anyone tries to monopolize Rifts Earth....but some place like Palladium, or Hero's Earth isn't so "lucky" and is more likely to get their finite resources.....just my two cents there.

i'm not sold on that explanation. it's a valid reason for the splugorth to not rule earth; the main selling point of earth is also it's greatest drawback; you would have to fortify the entire planet if you wanted to have even a chance of holding the entire planet. all the splugorth really want out of earth is a good location to go to and from in the megaverse, and they only need their markets to be there.

to take more than what they have would mean that their defence forces would be stretched extremely thin; there are hundreds of possible locations someone could launch an attack from, perhaps even thousands, spread across the world. there's no benefit to be had, and a lot to lose, by taking the entire planet for someone like the splugorth.

in contrast, if it was to be fully taken over by demons or devils, it would presumably be filled up with their minions. the parts they're using will be protected simply by virtue of being living space for an army of MDC creatures. the parts that aren't, well, there's nothing there to attack. they also don't care about the costs in the same way that the splugorth do, and in fact probably welcome full-scale assaults so long as someone else takes the beating.

[HWalsh]

It's hard to picture a mere Angel being strong enough to empower someone like that... they may be on par with or even stronger than Greater Demons but I'm not sure if they're on par with Demon Lords...

Maybe notable ones like the mysterious Lokum...

I'll admit, I am not too up on my knowledge of Palladium's "Demons" but... Well... If we go off of the real-world Religious Studies (Demonology and Angelology, and yes Angelology is a real thing) than the weakest Angel has pure dominion and dominance over the strongest Demon so... Yeah... The Demon Lords should be nothing compared to the Angels.

[eliakon]

It's hard to picture a mere Angel being strong enough to empower someone like that... they may be on par with or even stronger than Greater Demons but I'm not sure if they're on par with Demon Lords...

Maybe notable ones like the mysterious Lokum...

I'll admit, I am not too up on my knowledge of Palladium's "Demons" but... Well... If we go off of the real-world Religious Studies (Demonology and Angelology, and yes Angelology is a real thing) than the weakest Angel has pure dominion and dominance over the strongest Demon so... Yeah... The Demon Lords should be nothing compared to the Angels.

Look at the stats of your generic spirit of light. Now go look at the stats of the generic demon (that would be a lesser demon since they are the 'generic ones'....) Now imagine what the angel lords/archangels look like, and THEN tell me that the forces of light can't be empowering people. Remember the average spirit of light is no more empowering people than the average lesser demon is.

[eliakon]

I think a chance to have an OCC based on having a person empowered by an Angelic host was seriously missed and they should really put that in a future issue of the Rifter.

They have one, it was in armageddon unlimited. Crusader of Light. The minion war broke out in Heroes Unlimited before Rifts Earth, and the forces of light apparently focused their attention there--prehaps the reason they arn't acting in Rifts Earth is they have already written it off.

Or because Its not a world that either side is likely to be allowed to KEEP. The Angels don't have to stop them....the rest of the bad guys will gang up on the winners if anyone tries to monopolize Rifts Earth....but some place like Palladium, or Hero's Earth isn't so "lucky" and is more likely to get their finite resources.....just my two cents there.

i'm not sold on that explanation. it's a valid reason for the splugorth to not rule earth; the main selling point of earth is also it's greatest drawback; you would have to fortify the entire planet if you wanted to have even a chance of holding the entire planet. all the splugorth really want out of earth is a good location to go to and from in the megaverse, and they only need their markets to be there.

to take more than what they have would mean that their defence forces would be stretched extremely thin; there are hundreds of possible locations someone could launch an attack from, perhaps even thousands, spread across the world. there's no benefit to be had, and a lot to lose, by taking the entire planet for someone like the splugorth.

in contrast, if it was to be fully taken over by demons or devils, it would presumably be filled up with their minions. the parts they're using will be protected simply by virtue of being living space for an army of MDC creatures. the parts that aren't, well, there's nothing there to attack. they also don't care about the costs in the same way that the splugorth do, and in fact probably welcome full-scale assaults so long as someone else takes the beating.

Unless there is a SERIOUS ret-con in MiF there is just no way that Hades or Dyvall has the firepower to take, let alone keep the earth. There are several dozen assorted gods, demon lords, alien inteligences, and what not from a wide array of power groups and pantheons already entrenched on the earth. There is just no way that they can take them all on at once. And that's why the angels aren't here. Because they are busy making sure that the places that are at risk don't fall. As worst Hades and/or Dyvall could get another demonic kingdom on Rifts Earth. *yawn* take a number please......

[Nekira Sudacne]

It's hard to picture a mere Angel being strong enough to empower someone like that... they may be on par with or even stronger than Greater Demons but I'm not sure if they're on par with Demon Lords...

Maybe notable ones like the mysterious Lokum...

The class says only Godlike beings of light (or actual gods of light) can create Crusaders of light. the result is very powerful, easially on par with witches and Mega-heros. And all crusaders innately have the power to create devine energy blasts and suffer from weapons or things which only affect angels or deities.

[Mack]

It's hard to picture a mere Angel being strong enough to empower someone like that... they may be on par with or even stronger than Greater Demons but I'm not sure if they're on par with Demon Lords...

Maybe notable ones like the mysterious Lokum...

The class says only Godlike beings of light (or actual gods of light) can create Crusaders of light. the result is very powerful, easially on par with witches and Mega-heros. And all crusaders innately have the power to create devine energy blasts and suffer from weapons or things which only affect angels or deities.

A while back I had a hankering to create a "Devine Witch" OCC. Same premise as the default Witch, but one who is bound to a good deity/intelligence/what-have-you.

For role-playing purposes, I was going to set it up so that at level one any good or selfish alignment is acceptable. But over time the character is expected to gradually shift toward towards Principled and would get a minor bonus for each 'improvement." And while the deity might accept a character that never improves that far, any shift in the opposite direction would fine the character's power reduced or cut off real quick. Thought be fun to have scoundrel slowly become redeemed.

[Nekira Sudacne]

It's hard to picture a mere Angel being strong enough to empower someone like that... they may be on par with or even stronger than Greater Demons but I'm not sure if they're on par with Demon Lords...

Maybe notable ones like the mysterious Lokum...

The class says only Godlike beings of light (or actual gods of light) can create Crusaders of light. the result is very powerful, easially on par with witches and Mega-heros. And all crusaders innately have the power to create devine energy blasts and suffer from weapons or things which only affect angels or deities.

A while back I had a hankering to create a "Devine Witch" OCC. Same premise as the default Witch, but one who is bound to a good deity/intelligence/what-have-you.

For role-playing purposes, I was going to set it up so that at level one any good or selfish alignment is acceptable. But over time the character is expected to gradually shift toward towards Principled and would get a minor bonus for each 'improvement." And while the deity might accept a character that never improves that far, any shift in the opposite direction would fine the character's power reduced or cut off real quick. Thought be fun to have scoundrel slowly become redeemed.

Yea, this is pretty similar, complete with alignment restrictions. it's kind of a super mystically bestowed in concept, but in the end it's very similar to that.

[Tor]

It's hard to picture a mere Angel being strong enough to empower someone like that... they may be on par with or even stronger than Greater Demons but I'm not sure if they're on par with Demon Lords...

Maybe notable ones like the mysterious Lokum...

I'll admit, I am not too up on my knowledge of Palladium's "Demons" but... Well... If we go off of the real-world Religious Studies (Demonology and Angelology, and yes Angelology is a real thing) than the weakest Angel has pure dominion and dominance over the strongest Demon so... Yeah... The Demon Lords should be nothing compared to the Angels.

Look at the stats of your generic spirit of light. Now go look at the stats of the generic demon (that would be a lesser demon since they are the 'generic ones'....) Now imagine what the angel lords/archangels look like, and THEN tell me that the forces of light can't be empowering people. Remember the average spirit of light is no more empowering people than the average lesser demon is.

It is not clear whether or not the Spirits of Light are considered to be the 'lesser' or 'greater' angels though, they may be the 'greater' and there is no lessers, although they still seem stronger than greater demons...

The issue though is that a Demon Lord is generally stronger than a Spirit of Light and there isn't any 'Light Lord' or 'Angel Lord' introduced stat-wise yet.

Unless there is a SERIOUS ret-con in MiF there is just no way that Hades or Dyvall has the firepower to take, let alone keep the earth. There are several dozen assorted gods, demon lords, alien inteligences, and what not from a wide array of power groups and pantheons already entrenched on the earth. There is just no way that they can take them all on at once.s.

I think they could manage it. Keep in mind that it isn't the raw number of demons or dyvalians that matters, but also the mortals they manipulate into doing their work. The Three Galaxies is a way bigger playing field than Rifts Earth and the Minion War has an impact on it, much due to the influence on or recruitment of lesser beings.

Demons in particular have a huge advantage being able to make Demonic Mortals (lesser or greater) or even to create an (unlimited?) amount of Greater Demons either via making Demon Knights or by making them those Undead guys.

Even mighty AIs on Rifts Earth are vulnerable to mass attacks from huge numbers with good weapons and demons and dyvalians often have more organized infrastructures for launching that kind of thing.

The biggest problem would be Lord of the Deep, I think, since not too many demons or dyvalians are aquatic. Demons could corrupt aquatic communities to turn on LotD but that would take some reorganization, and LotD has his Cultists. Plus then there's the Horune who can just co-opt dolphins and sharks and enhance them with Dreamer-tech.

[Mack]

It's hard to picture a mere Angel being strong enough to empower someone like that... they may be on par with or even stronger than Greater Demons but I'm not sure if they're on par with Demon Lords...

Maybe notable ones like the mysterious Lokum...

The class says only Godlike beings of light (or actual gods of light) can create Crusaders of light. the result is very powerful, easially on par with witches and Mega-heros. And all crusaders innately have the power to create devine energy blasts and suffer from weapons or things which only affect angels or deities.

A while back I had a hankering to create a "Devine Witch" OCC. Same premise as the default Witch, but one who is bound to a good deity/intelligence/what-have-you.

For role-playing purposes, I was going to set it up so that at level one any good or selfish alignment is acceptable. But over time the character is expected to gradually shift toward towards Principled and would get a minor bonus for each 'improvement." And while the deity might accept a character that never improves that far, any shift in the opposite direction would fine the character's power reduced or cut off real quick. Thought be fun to have scoundrel slowly become redeemed.

Yea, this is pretty similar, complete with alignment restrictions. it's kind of a super mystically bestowed in concept, but in the end it's very similar to that.

Cool. Glad someone with more time/energy than me had the same concept.

[Zamion138]

Couple things.
1. When angels die, they die for good. When demons die they go back to Hades or Dyval and come back with the knowledge of who and how they were defeated.
2. In MiF it states that at least Hades and probably Dyval have a peice of Osiris thus keeping the forces of the church of light (and thus the church of light and dark as well) at bay.
3. If Toth gets involved its possible the demons and devils know his truth and while they dont want the old ones back anymore than the angels if they are losing bad enough they might say screw it and take the universe with them. Sorta MAD thing, IE. Leave us to our war or the universe really will burn.
4. Angels can beat demons head to head almost everytime, granted but angels cant beat demon planets, demon(devil) prince's, demon gods, ect. The lowest demons are fodder the greatest angels are on par with a prince or regent. The diffrence being a regent or price comes back when they die.
5. Hades is more vualnrable than dyval to assualt but if you beat hades down dyval comes out on top and thus you broke the balance of power.

Probably way more reasons atop that.

[Tor]

Perhaps some angels learn some Zenjorike and discorporate, thus becoming enlightened and able to reincarnate...

Heck, it makes me wonder...

We know Demons will sometimes inhabit the womb of a follower to be reborn faster...

What if that is what the Athanatos are?

[Ranger]

The Angels are providing me covering fire from the sky.

[Zamion138]

Perhaps some angels learn some Zenjorike and discorporate, thus becoming enlightened and able to reincarnate...

Heck, it makes me wonder...

We know Demons will sometimes inhabit the womb of a follower to be reborn faster...

What if that is what the Athanatos are?

The % of enlightened angels if any would be low at best, not mention demons/devils as earlier stated could summon and bind them for vast sums of time would make this a rare trait.
Unless angels take the fight to dyval and hades most of their actions are moot.

[Tor]

Perhaps mass-enlightenment explains how angels remain alive at all with a Megaverse full of evil summoners who might otherwise have their plans foiled by angels.

We might even assume that those few angels who remain must all be assumed to be enlightened and that all the non-enligthened ones have been wiped out

[eliakon]

Perhaps mass-enlightenment explains how angels remain alive at all with a Megaverse full of evil summoners who might otherwise have their plans foiled by angels.

We might even assume that those few angels who remain must all be assumed to be enlightened and that all the non-enligthened ones have been wiped out

Or maybe there is no enlightened angels at all and they deal with dying the same as mortals do. There is no reason to assume that angels have to be reborn just to 'deal with' evil. In fact in some ways its more noble to face evil with OUT a safety net....but YMMV.

[Zamion138]

Perhaps mass-enlightenment explains how angels remain alive at all with a Megaverse full of evil summoners who might otherwise have their plans foiled by angels.

We might even assume that those few angels who remain must all be assumed to be enlightened and that all the non-enligthened ones have been wiped out

Lets assume your right, how many hard number would that be. Or less exact what % of demons/devils to angels are there?
100 to 1?
10K to 1?
Ect.
Opinion wise as I dont think its stated anywhere.

[Tor]

maybe there is no enlightened angels at all and they deal with dying the same as mortals do.

Repopulating? I could roll with that explanation if Palladium would release some reproductive tactical rule guidelines and illustrative depictions to inform us regarding the plausibility of that strategy.

There is no reason to assume that angels have to be reborn just to 'deal with' evil. In fact in some ways its more noble to face evil with OUT a safety net....but YMMV.

It's noble, yeah, but without respawning or reproduction, angels are inevitably going to be at a numerical disadvantage.

how many hard number would that be. Or less exact what % of demons/devils to angels are there?
100 to 1?
10K to 1?
Ect.
Opinion wise as I dont think its stated anywhere.

I don't think there are any hard total-sums out there of either, but there's good arguments for them being small in number.

Dragons and Gods page 76 mentions "many" scholars (and clergy) estimate 2/3 were wiped out by the Old Ones and that they are a 'dying race'. The Tristine Chronicles say before "numbers had once filled the sky" and after "numbers could now be easily counted".

I don't know about you, but I could not 'easily count' the thousands (millions?) of demons in the Megaverse.

Perhaps like mortals these guys can simply reproduce in the 'alien dimension' they are indigenous to, in which case there isn't much of a problem and they're just busy trying to do it as fast as it takes slain demons to regrow from their Hades-pods.

Since the Spirits of Light are such moral beings, if they existed in large numbers the mass 'always help others' principled ones would be intervening en-masse to save people from demons and stuff. That we don't see them doing this much speaks for them being a rarity who are conserving their strength for where it can be best used at the least risk.

I expect much of them are hiding on the astral plane since their stats are so much better there. Perhaps they spend most of their time defending the 'heavens' as a more primary concern to universal stability.

[kaid]

It's hard to picture a mere Angel being strong enough to empower someone like that... they may be on par with or even stronger than Greater Demons but I'm not sure if they're on par with Demon Lords...

Maybe notable ones like the mysterious Lokum...

I'll admit, I am not too up on my knowledge of Palladium's "Demons" but... Well... If we go off of the real-world Religious Studies (Demonology and Angelology, and yes Angelology is a real thing) than the weakest Angel has pure dominion and dominance over the strongest Demon so... Yeah... The Demon Lords should be nothing compared to the Angels.

Look at the stats of your generic spirit of light. Now go look at the stats of the generic demon (that would be a lesser demon since they are the 'generic ones'....) Now imagine what the angel lords/archangels look like, and THEN tell me that the forces of light can't be empowering people. Remember the average spirit of light is no more empowering people than the average lesser demon is.

It is not clear whether or not the Spirits of Light are considered to be the 'lesser' or 'greater' angels though, they may be the 'greater' and there is no lessers, although they still seem stronger than greater demons...

The issue though is that a Demon Lord is generally stronger than a Spirit of Light and there isn't any 'Light Lord' or 'Angel Lord' introduced stat-wise yet.

Unless there is a SERIOUS ret-con in MiF there is just no way that Hades or Dyvall has the firepower to take, let alone keep the earth. There are several dozen assorted gods, demon lords, alien inteligences, and what not from a wide array of power groups and pantheons already entrenched on the earth. There is just no way that they can take them all on at once.s.

I think they could manage it. Keep in mind that it isn't the raw number of demons or dyvalians that matters, but also the mortals they manipulate into doing their work. The Three Galaxies is a way bigger playing field than Rifts Earth and the Minion War has an impact on it, much due to the influence on or recruitment of lesser beings.

Demons in particular have a huge advantage being able to make Demonic Mortals (lesser or greater) or even to create an (unlimited?) amount of Greater Demons either via making Demon Knights or by making them those Undead guys.

Even mighty AIs on Rifts Earth are vulnerable to mass attacks from huge numbers with good weapons and demons and dyvalians often have more organized infrastructures for launching that kind of thing.

The biggest problem would be Lord of the Deep, I think, since not too many demons or dyvalians are aquatic. Demons could corrupt aquatic communities to turn on LotD but that would take some reorganization, and LotD has his Cultists. Plus then there's the Horune who can just co-opt dolphins and sharks and enhance them with Dreamer-tech.

It is going to be interesting if the demons/devils wind up "winning" enough to provoke doomsday responses from major powers. We know the CS has city buster nukes and I have to assume triax has some for the same reasons. The hell gates from megaverse in flames are wide open to being wiped out by this kind of assault. The hell pits are huge they are foot ball field size or larger and if any one of the four pylons controlling them is shut down they are out till the next major solstice and every demon/devil in the area of that cannot survive the bast which would be all but major demon/devil lords and a few odd balls like maggots not only dies but dies the true death not a go back to your hell dimension and recover in a few centuries. I wonder how many times that happens that a lot of the demon force that are used to be immortal start thinking twice how bad they want rifts earth.

How willing will demons/devils be to defend something that is that vulnerable to long range assaults that could be set to air burst well above any ability to defend or shoot down the demons/devils possess. Eventually if left alone long enough they could setup defenses like tolkeen had to fend off this kind of attack but until that time they are really vulnerable to long range bombardment.

The other fun fact is the hell gates are two way portals its all fun and games until the CS says heck with it and starts trying to flip nukes through the portals when they are open to detonate on the other side. Since the CS has no desire to control hell or hades and the gates would fall in a split second of the nuke detonating there is little risk for long term fallout/radiation while at the same time blowing the living hell out of any demonic/infernal forces in a hell pit staging area. How many times does that have to happen before the forces of the minion war to start getting really hesitant opening gigantic gaping targets into which you can insert nukes directly into their homes.

[kaid]

One other thing to note archie 3 has access to satellite coverage of the earth so is the one being that could pin point all hell pits pretty easily. If things ever went into the doomsday scenario there is a potential chance that archie either overtly or covertly makes that information available to whatever powers are up and kicking. He cannot be a god to humans if there are no humans left or demons/devils take over.

[Zamion138]

Yeah but if archie starts droping satalite munitions or even starts spotting the targets for human forces dont you think the demons and devils will send in the space fleet? Have human/mortal hackers break up the sattalite feeds, these demons have fought ultra tech before many many times on other planets and diminsions.
They are cocky not morons.
Also some of the pits have fog/cloud cover thus making ariel spotting impossible.
Archie is deffintly under used and the idea hes so unsure of himself is getting a bit old, it would be nice if in 150 years he finaly does something to reveal himself would be nice.

All the stuff that is 5 minutes to midnight in the world and the world powers sans the cs just sitting on their hands is getting a bit old storyline wise.

[eliakon]

Or Splyncryth rifts some ships in over head and starts using a Mass Driver to drop rocks on them, or.......
Its pretty easy when you get to fight small force battles. But when you go to the Big Leagues people start breaking out weapons that kill whole cities at a go, not just do 6d6 per shot. And then its not so much of a cake walk.
Yay space battle between Splugorth fleet and Demon fleet while the Splugies bomb the earth. Film at 11.
(and for a note, cloud cover doesn't matter squat if you just have to get with in a few miles....and if you miss on the first shot....well the blast will clear up that cloud cover for the second and third strike.)

[Zamion138]

I just want archie to drop T.H.O.R.S on em

[kaid]

Yeah but if archie starts droping satalite munitions or even starts spotting the targets for human forces dont you think the demons and devils will send in the space fleet? Have human/mortal hackers break up the sattalite feeds, these demons have fought ultra tech before many many times on other planets and diminsions.
They are cocky not morons.
Also some of the pits have fog/cloud cover thus making ariel spotting impossible.
Archie is deffintly under used and the idea hes so unsure of himself is getting a bit old, it would be nice if in 150 years he finaly does something to reveal himself would be nice.

All the stuff that is 5 minutes to midnight in the world and the world powers sans the cs just sitting on their hands is getting a bit old storyline wise.

They may be able to send in a fleet if they could pin point ley lines in the same universe as rifts earth and have a space fleet there which is not a given. Also its not necessary for archie to drop any space munitions targeting info for the most part would be sufficient.

Unlike the three galaxies the invasion of rifts earth is coming through via very large very noticable rift locations. These rift portals are being held open by magical pylons that while strong are still something that heavy munitions can pretty readily destroy and would be difficult to defend. Also these pylons once destroyed are difficult to in cases impossible to replace. If they have spares it could not come back online till the next solstice. If they don't have the right spares they would have to scrap the entire hellpit and start the process of its creation over again.

I have to say there must be some story handwavium going on because having football field sized portals OR BIGGER football field is the starting size that are a two way portal from your major invasion jump off nexus to your target seems a really risky plan on vs any advanced culture. In the three galaxies their jump off points were a bum rush on center and coming in via hidden natural portals. The attack on center the prometheans would not have wanted to launch nukes into gate land because that is a huge source of their business but nobody on rifts earth gives a rats tail for the hell pit locations let alone hades or dyvall itself.

While yes fog and clouds will obscure them the hell pits are VERY noticeable their minimum size is foot ball field sized and they have an area of influance around them that makes the surrounding area look more and more like the hell dimension linked to that area. Concealing that a hell pit is in an area would be almost impossible and given it all radiates from a central point its not hard to figure out where the pit must be and its almost to big to miss if one is looking in even vaguely the right area. Also all hell pits are on nexus points so again pretty easy markers for where they can possibly be scouting wise.

The invasion method is very different between what they did in the three galaxies and what they are doing on rifts earth and the method they chose for rifts earth makes their assault very vulnerable to the doomsday response options. There is not much said on how much true demons/devils can reproduce or if they can reproduce in ways like biological organisms so losing millions to 10s of millions to true death could seriously effect the minion war against any faction that took that kind of losses.

[kaid]

One other thing to note in the three galaxies invasion and on the other invasions talked about none of the jump off points have the area of influence we are seeing from hell pits that make that area count as their home dimension for what happens if they die.

Its one thing to attack the center and even if you lost your entire force you will get them all back soon enough and what is even centuries to creatures that are immortal than it is to be losing entire armies in the wink of an eye to true death that they cannot recover from. Also note that most devils/demons tend not to be the best team players at the best of times unless under the lash of stronger powers how well are the demon/devil forces going to respond if they find out how many of their kind are dying like puny mortals never to be seen again. And once they realize it how many are going to defect/scamper off/port back home and not want any part of the actual defense of a hard to defend location.

[Zer0 Kay]

I just want archie to drop T.H.O.R.S on em

Okay what does THORS stand for? I figure your talking Hypervelocity Rod Bundles (HRB), Rod of God (RoG), Rod from God (RfG) delivered by project Thor.

[Zer0 Kay]

Besides demons can deal with THORS. Being into S&M helps you deal with pain

[Zer0 Kay]

Hmm, sorry not sure on canon. If were talking Biblically an angel is created not born and demons are only fallen angels. Now Nephilim are supposed to be the children of angels and women, it probably would work the same for demons except there is mythology for female demons while there is only reference of angels being male.