4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse

[grandmaster z0b]

Who has actually run the Africa campaign to kill the 4 horsemen?

I've never felt that any of the player characters in the games I ran were anywhere near powerful enough to kill them. Maybe they could be just a part of the gathering of heroes that would help destroy each one, but that doesn't seem that fun. Maybe I'm just not enough of a munchkin GM?

If so how did you kill them? It seems to me the best way to do it would be with giant robots shooting missile volleys, perhaps with some spotters closer up and maybe some big tanks as well like dragons up front to pin the demon down.

[Alrik Vas]

Yeah. Call in the military, and make sure Rama-Set's boys don't throw a monkey wrench in the operation.

[Blue_Lion]

Never ran Africa or been in a Africa campaign.

[Svartalf]

Neither have I ... I would not run a 4 Horsemen campaign without rules for large scale battles... them horsemen have armies behind them.

[Blue_Lion]

I played around with the concept of large scale battle rules, but never got very far into it.

Basically the concept was armies had a large MDC pool and both sides rolled a die modified by commander skill and circumstances determine tactical advantage then they rolled to a second die for damage, modified by fire power tactical advantage and with possible modifiers for PC actions such as taking out a major enemy asset stopping a enemy flanking maneuver. The damage modified damage die would determine how much of their MDC pool was depleted. (some of the stuff was tracked based off of building the armies build by the merc generation table.) The issue was how often to roll for damage tactical advantage I was thinking about either every 5 or every 15 minutes of combat but on really large scale fights it might be hours. The goal was to have way to track mass combat while making it happen mostly in the back ground but the Players affecting the outcome of the battle.

[Glistam]

As I recall we had been given a GM designed weapon which would increase our damage output significantly and we ended up squaring off against each of the Horseman while the others (NPC's) that were with us kept the armies at bay. At that point it was just melee and M.D.C. attrition. These were our early days of Rifts, where it was more about doing the damage numbers than really having tactics.

Looking back, we should've been slaughtered. Instead we killed Pestilence in just under a minute (four melees) and I know we fought War because I remember that my character died when War got a hold of that G.M. designed weapon and turned it against us. I don't recall if our group won that fight or if we fought any of the other two. I do recall there was drinking involved that night.

[Shark_Force]

the gathering of heroes should pretty much stomp them with or without your help.

the simple fact of the matter is, several hundred people with even poor quality laser rifles can do a lot of damage. several hundred heroes, who might reasonably be expected to average something a bit better than 1d6 damage, can deal an even more ridiculous amount of damage very quickly. 20,000 MDC sounds like a lot, but when you get that many people together if you assume an average of 4d6 damage with 75% of the attacks hitting in a group of, say, 500 people, you get:

3.5 (average of 1d6) * 4 (number of dice per hit) * 0.75 (hit rate) * 500 = 5250 damage. that's in the first action.

so a being with 20,000 MDC that regenerates 1d4x100 MDC per round *sounds* really impressive, but the group of 500 people probably kills it before it can even bio-regenerate a single point of MDC.

in short, the answer to how you beat them is "more dakka".

[SolCannibal]

the gathering of heroes should pretty much stomp them with or without your help.

the simple fact of the matter is, several hundred people with even poor quality laser rifles can do a lot of damage. several hundred heroes, who might reasonably be expected to average something a bit better than 1d6 damage, can deal an even more ridiculous amount of damage very quickly. 20,000 MDC sounds like a lot, but when you get that many people together if you assume an average of 4d6 damage with 75% of the attacks hitting in a group of, say, 500 people, you get:

3.5 (average of 1d6) * 4 (number of dice per hit) * 0.75 (hit rate) * 500 = 5250 damage. that's in the first action.

so a being with 20,000 MDC that regenerates 1d4x100 MDC per round *sounds* really impressive, but the group of 500 people probably kills it before it can even bio-regenerate a single point of MDC.

in short, the answer to how you beat them is "more dakka".

The attrition along the way in the form of refugees, undead, people driven crazy/desperate by the Horsemen or troops of misinformed/demented followers of Rama-Set is what supposed to make things less curbstompingly simple and actually help the GM in actually shaping up some challenge.

[Shark_Force]

refugees don't make it harder to kill the apocalypse demons.

random people driven crazy or desperate are a pretty minor issue; there are a lot of ways to disable someone if you don't want to kill them, and the gathering of heroes undoubtedly includes a reasonable number of spellcasters and psychics, who have access to many of those ways.

these things make dealing with the aftereffects more difficult, but do not actually make it substantially harder to defeat the demons.

followers of rama-set can provide some challenge, but he doesn't actually even know where the demons are, and is someweight counterbalanced (to say the least) by the fact that the NGR is contributing long-range airstrikes.

simply put, the demons were written with an eye towards making them a threat to a group of 4-6 players, and they do that very well. for a small group, they are an extremely challenging enemy.

they were not written to be a challenge to a small army of people considered to be "heroes", which is why canonically speaking it makes perfect sense that a later book basically took the time out to mention that they got curbstomped, and doesn't bother going into more depth than that.

also, honestly, from everything i've seen rama-set and the phoenix empire don't look that impressive. he's conquered a small portion of africa... good for him. i'm sure it was awfully difficult conquering isolated small villages where the most advanced weaponry is the bow and arrow, and no enchantment is available to make those weapons actually damage MDC technology (though at least they can make armour that can withstand MDC attacks as if they were SDC attacks, and living MDC threats can be harmed as well).

in short, it feels like "big fish in a small pond" might be too generous. he's more like the slightly larger fish in a fishtank.

edit: just realized i forgot an important point: the apocalypse demons are not really meant for a small group to take out on their own under ordinary circumstances. that doesn't mean that your group can't play an important role; it just means that being one of the hundreds of people who can point a laser rifle and pull the trigger is not going to be the most important role.

anyone can deal damage in rifts. you could take 500 vagabonds with triax pump rifles and crush the demons.

the problem, of course, is that first you have to get 500 vagabonds with triax pump rifles to do that. they can track down the demons so that the gathering knows where they are, they can interfere with rama-set's plans, making sure that he still doesn't know where the demons are. they can help deal with important obstacles, they can recruit champions from each of those small villages (seriously, a few hundred tribal warriors with enchanted bows will be slightly slower at wrecking the apocalypse demons than a group with pump rifles or railguns, but still should win quite handily). they can even go to other parts of the world and get help; canonically, we know that the NGR helped with some airstrikes. if you want to stick to canon, you can have your group help by persuading the NGR that this is important enough to be worth airstrikes that far from home.

but really, it's a heck of a lot harder to move on with the game if your party is personally powerful to just kill the apocalypse demons; you're pretty limited in your options at that point, because anything less than demon lords as opponents is just going to be inconsequential. it's ok if you want to retire the group, but if you're not planning on retiring them, i'd suggest having them play an important role, but not by having them be the sole damage-dealers.

[grandmaster z0b]

Would a Soul Drinking Rune Weapon be able to kill them with a successful strike if they failed the save?

[everloss]

Would a Soul Drinking Rune Weapon be able to kill them with a successful strike if they failed the save?

It would if they had souls.

[Shark_Force]

that depends at least partly on whether or not you think they can bleed.

[grandmaster z0b]

It would if they had souls.

that depends at least partly on whether or not you think they can bleed.

Both good points. Let's assume they do have souls.

Of the four horsemen, the only one that doesn't look fleshy enough to bleed is actually Pestilence, being composed of a skeleton covered in insects. However again, whether any of them technically bleed is probably up to the GM.

[SolCannibal]

As an aside, if some details about the Grim Reapers in Juicer Uprising (pages 96-98 if you want to know) serves as any indication, some people might have been aware of the Horsemen's coming in Africa and prepared cult cells to support them long before the Gathering of Heroes. Among their leaders Memtar the Destroyer is a witch of the Death entity itself, Otto Schroder is a German Shifter who contacted the Four Horsemen through the Tree of Darkness and Aramis... damn, Arthur Knight had a vision where Death had spoken to him, awaited for him to go to Africa - while buried alive in a mass grave during Joseph Prosek I's systematic campaign of genocide against the Federation of Magic, in the years 12-14 P.A.. That's some pretty nasty potential for crazy but somewhat organized interference beside Rama-Set's forces.

[Tor]

several hundred people with even poor quality laser rifles can do a lot of damage.

I believe at least 2 of the horsemen have impervious to energy, so I would stick with your later Pump Rifle example. Even then, their minions can jump into the line of fire to absorb your shots. If we assume Death has the advanced necro magic in Mystic Russia, this also means he can amass MDC skeletons.

several hundred heroes, who might reasonably be expected to average something a bit better than 1d6 damage, can deal an even more ridiculous amount of damage very quickly.

If they all manage to attack simultaneously, which is incredibly unlikely. These guys are spreading out into groups combing an entire continent. Even if they were all together, there are reasonable limits regarding line-of-fire that GMs can implement for realism. Terrain should play a major factor. As might swarming clouds of insects that reduce visibility.

5250 damage. that's in the first action.

Not likely 500 people are all going to have a bead on a horseman in the same moment unless he`s perching on the top of some hill-pillar like a moron.

These guys are too experienced to do stupid things like that. They will probably sneak up on the camp and murder the laser-gunners in their sleep.

Arthur Knight had a vision where Death had spoken to him, awaited for him to go to Africa - while buried alive in a mass grave during Joseph Prosek I's systematic campaign of genocide against the Federation of Magic, in the years 12-14 P.A.. That's some pretty nasty potential for crazy but somewhat organized interference beside Rama-Set's forces.

I seem to recall that Arthur disappeared in an NGR bomb blast or something, which is the last time his ElfMystic buddy saw him. He was clearly involved and survived but I do not think he had stuff like his Murder Wraiths around at that moment. That sounds more like post-defeat fallout.

Huge threat with Horsemen is from top-level Mystic China Geomancers since they can bypass the waiting period and re-summon the Horsemen whenever they want.

[Shark_Force]

500 people is not so many as to make it impossible to all get a shot off at a fairly large target, particularly when they can all be over a thousand feet away. as to not being all together at once, the apocalypse demons are mostly pretty slow (war can swipe a modern vehicle, which will actually make him one of the harder ones to face imo). assuming the gathering of heroes has access to vehicles, the apocalypse demons are extremely unlikely to be the ones deciding when the fight starts.

as to minions, most of the apocalypse demons don't really have them to send out as cannon fodder. the ones that do, don't typically have many (death can make minions at will, but chooses not to have more than ~200 iirc and explicitly doesn't keep them near himself). enough to take a few more rounds to clear out, but not enough to defeat the theoretical group of 500 people, considering most of their minions are not long ranged.

as to apocalypse demon cults, that's always a possibility, but insanity and organization are not generally closely associated with each other. they might fight for the demons, but they're not likely to do it in a particularly organized fashion. in most cases, i wouldn't even expect most of the members of those cults to actually have any sort of combat training, let alone training for fighting as a group, and most won't even have a clue that the other groups exist, or if they do, probably don't know who or where they are. heck, they may even suffer from mistaken identity and kill each other (which imo would probably amuse the apocalypse demons somewhat).

imo, the hardest demon to fight would probably be war, since he can take over technology. if they don't know what they're up against with him, they could be *really* screwed.

on the other hand, if they *do* know what they're up against, they could just send in the african villagers (or ask for their help in arming the gathering of heroes with low tech weapons). several hundred people with enchanted bows and arrows should do just fine against war, as long as nobody's fed him a bunch of high tech combat vehicles first.

[SolCannibal]

Arthur Knight had a vision where Death had spoken to him, awaited for him to go to Africa - while buried alive in a mass grave during Joseph Prosek I's systematic campaign of genocide against the Federation of Magic, in the years 12-14 P.A.. That's some pretty nasty potential for crazy but somewhat organized interference beside Rama-Set's forces.

I seem to recall that Arthur disappeared in an NGR bomb blast or something, which is the last time his ElfMystic buddy saw him. He was clearly involved and survived but I do not think he had stuff like his Murder Wraiths around at that moment. That sounds more like post-defeat fallout.

Well, i wasn't even thinking really about the Murder Wraiths per se - the fact the Horsemen apparently had allies/minions with almost a century of forewarning on the rough plan to prepare themselves is what i think can amount to a lot of room for deterrents and exta obstacles if one cares to GM the Gathering of Heroes. Even at 1/4 of Arthur' supposed XP one could do some decent antagonists at levels 9-10 (8th if a dragon hatching, gargoyle lord or something with a equally step table).

PS: As a little aside, it has crossed my mind that he's possibly the same age or just a little older than Alistair Dunscon (who was 12-14 years old at the time of the genocide), making him a good XP benchmark for anyone who would prefer to rewrite his stats in Worldbook 16.

[Shark_Force]

there's nothing that suggests those sorts of enemies are common though. they exist, certainly, but i doubt there's a *huge* supply of people willing to help destroy all life on the planet who haven't managed to get themselves killed off one way or another.

but yes, that sort of opponent is much more appropriate for the PCs to take on as a group. as i said, for the horsemen themselves, your best bet is to just get a lot of people with weapons that can harm them (some research would be a good idea) and go to town.

[grandmaster z0b]

There's no real reason to attack Death at all. After the other 3 are defeated he will fade away back to his home dimension unless actively supported by a death cult or something and even then his power is severely depleted.

Famine can cast Animate and Control Dead for minions, but generally "strikes quietly from the shadows or at a distance". Meaning he would be hard to catch in a straight up fight. Instead he would use his powers to cause droughts and putrefy all the food and drink of the heroes and use his aura of hunger to make them weak. He can do that whilst using an Invisibility spell, Invis: Superior or Shadow Meld. He can also cast Teleport: Superior which makes it very difficult to finish him off. *

Pestilence has no ability to summon minions but can use insect swarms in a similar fashion: blinding swarms that make it impossible for 500 people to see him and strike. Plus any that are not in full EBA are vulnerable to damage or disease from the swarm. His staff can create six giant magic beetles that fight for him.

War doesn't seem to have any minion abilities but has the ability to "evoke anger, hatred and lust for power or vengeance in others through his words (see M.A. attribute). War can make participants in a dispute see red and quickly turn to violence, agitating mobs to loot, vandalise and murder." probably means he couldn't actually use these mobs as cannon fodder but could cause the gathering of heroes to split up by agitating rivalries or disputes.

*Actually both Famine and Death can cast Teleport: Superior and instinctively know each other's location and where to meet. You'd think the first thing that both would do is Teleport to the Great Pyramid of Giza, get Rama-Set's help then teleport to Famine and Pestilence so they can at least travel together if not just teleport each other directly to Giza. If the 4 horsemen were player characters I'm sure that's what they would do.

[SolCannibal]

there's nothing that suggests those sorts of enemies are common though. they exist, certainly, but i doubt there's a *huge* supply of people willing to help destroy all life on the planet who haven't managed to get themselves killed off one way or another.

And yet we have stuff like Nyxla cult and similar stuff here and there. Yes, people disposed to help destroy all life on the planet should not be exactly common, but they can exist and form groups - and with the support and/or direction of supernatural entities (much like the Horsemen) find a focus to "prosper" and grow here and there.

Interestingly, we have little to no info on indirect stuff done by the Horsemen beside Death. At most a potential connection between the Order of Mystic Knights and War based on their behaviour and a certain resemblance of their P.P.E. Channeling to War's special abilities - and i'm the first to admit to be completely guessing in the dark more than anything.

[grandmaster z0b]

but yes, that sort of opponent is much more appropriate for the PCs to take on as a group. as i said, for the horsemen themselves, your best bet is to just get a lot of people with weapons that can harm them (some research would be a good idea) and go to town.

One of the best weapons I can think of is one of those rail guns that can be modified to shoot wooden rounds (normally for vampires) but make wooden ammo from Millenium Tree wood. I'm sure a Millenium Druid could get a tree to give him some splinters or acorns or something. Then we're talking about damage x10. Even silver rounds do damage x2.

Also all magic weapons and magic fire does double damage. Some fire elementals could do a lot of damage. Also a techno wizard could throw together some fairly nasty stuff, particularly long range magic fire missiles or something.

[Incriptus]

Upon a time I had a group of characters who were empowered by the gods to help fight the horsemen. The characters didn't know where this sudden burst of power came from and were supposed to work their ways towards that destiny. However the game ended before we even got half way there, this was years and years ago so I don't remember the details.

[SolCannibal]

but yes, that sort of opponent is much more appropriate for the PCs to take on as a group. as i said, for the horsemen themselves, your best bet is to just get a lot of people with weapons that can harm them (some research would be a good idea) and go to town.

One of the best weapons I can think of is one of those rail guns that can be modified to shoot wooden rounds (normally for vampires) but make wooden ammo from Millenium Tree wood. I'm sure a Millenium Druid could get a tree to give him some splinters or acorns or something. Then we're talking about damage x10. Even silver rounds do damage x2.

Also all magic weapons and magic fire does double damage. Some fire elementals could do a lot of damage. Also a techno wizard could throw together some fairly nasty stuff, particularly long range magic fire missiles or something.

Indeed, supernatural weaknesses are an interesting thing in the setting that doesn't get explored enough due to MD prevalence and power creep most of time. Now i'm remembering a Shifter corsair i once played with a enchanted gun that would transmute the bullets to iron, silver, wood and other materials upon command, among other things.

[Tor]

i doubt there's a *huge* supply of people willing to help destroy all life on the planet who haven't managed to get themselves killed off one way or another.

People aiding or defending the Horsemen would not be limited to those holding such an extreme attitude. They may not be aware of the full extent of what these guys do to planets and just see them as the newest demon lord on the block they want to impress.

I expect we would see things like Gargoyles aiding these guys even though Gargoyles for the most part probably just want to conquer the planet, not destroy it.

The odd thing is... I don't think Rama-Set actually wants to destroy the planet.

He just wants the planet to STRUGGLE. He wants to enlighten people through the stress of war, to make them better heroes.

The aim is to have the 4 Horsemen defeated, but to make it a really rough job that builds character.

And yet we have stuff like Nyxla cult and similar stuff here and there. Yes, people disposed to help destroy all life on the planet should not be exactly common, but they can exist and form groups

Nxla does not destroy life, he unifies it.

Harvesters want to become immortal servants of an entity which enters life and makes it immortal (Xombies do not age, far as I know).

Sure, a Harvester does kill people via soul-harvesting rituals to build a big PPE base, but that could be viewed as a regretful means to an end.

Far better to open a portal and let the master make them a Xombie than to cut out their eyes. But sometimes you have to cut out some eyes to have the juice to open said portal.

[SolCannibal]

The odd thing is... I don't think Rama-Set actually wants to destroy the planet.

He just wants the planet to STRUGGLE. He wants to enlighten people through the stress of war, to make them better heroes.

The aim is to have the 4 Horsemen defeated, but to make it a really rough job that builds character.

That actually does fit his "death, destruction and suffering are tribulations, challenges that bring growth and renewal with them" discourse. That said, it looks like he might be ok with sacrificing Rifts Earth if that brings a multiversal level period of chaos and concomitant change with it.

And yet we have stuff like Nyxla cult and similar stuff here and there. Yes, people disposed to help destroy all life on the planet should not be exactly common, but they can exist and form groups

Nxla does not destroy life, he unifies it.

In its belly, for eternity - somehow i think for many people that won't be so much of a difference, at least not a nice one.

[Tor]

You have a point, inevitably some must die to inspire those who remain. I don't think he intends a guaranteed death for anyone in particular but realizes that it inevitably occurs along the path when the weak are culled when they fail to step up.

Those who cannot see the distinct beauty of Nxla's gift and misrepresent it as 'death' are minds clouded by opposing philosophies which would lead them into death. Nxla is a singularity to protect all our souls.

[SolCannibal]

You have a point, inevitably some must die to inspire those who remain. I don't think he intends a guaranteed death for anyone in particular but realizes that it inevitably occurs along the path when the weak are culled when they fail to step up.

Those who cannot see the distinct beauty of Nxla's gift and misrepresent it as 'death' are minds clouded by opposing philosophies which would lead them into death. Nxla is a singularity to protect all our souls.

And after reading this i'm trying to imagine what sort of discourse those who work and fight for the Horsemen might give in name of their philosophy and cause.

[Tor]

That might depend on which particular Horseman they serve. Rama-Set is an example of one kind of servant, and there are of course others.

War brings the truth of opposing views instead of the misleading false peace of greed where differences are ignored.

Famine teaches the importance of our natural resources, and creates righteous disdain for the gluttonous.

Death helps reduce the carbon footprint of the planet, allowing plants to eventually regrow from the ashes of humanity.

Pestilence helps restore the rightful rulers of the planet, the insects who were here first.

The death the horsemen bring collectively is transient. They are delivering us to our afterlives, our deities, our reincarnation. Our energies feeding the ley lines so an even more powerful earth can be born as a gift to future generations.

[Alrik Vas]

An interesting philosophy...the truth is much more engaging though. Allow the apocalypse and the living will destroy themselves purely by virtue of it's existence.

[Killer Cyborg]

Who has actually run the Africa campaign to kill the 4 horsemen?

I ran a campaign where part of the overall goal was to get to Africa, and stop the 4 Horsemen.
After a few years, the campaign got as far as the East Coast and the Mechanoid Sourcebook, but then everybody moved away and the group fell apart.

Africa is a long way off from North America.

[SolCannibal]

Who has actually run the Africa campaign to kill the 4 horsemen?

I ran a campaign where part of the overall goal was to get to Africa, and stop the 4 Horsemen.
After a few years, the campaign got as far as the East Coast and the Mechanoid Sourcebook, but then everybody moved away and the group fell apart.

Africa is a long way off from North America.

Developed some stuff for the continent along the way?

Edit: Ah, it seems i totally misunderstood Killer Cyborg... You were actually saying the campaign halted at East Coast of North America, isn't it?
For some reason i thought you meant your PC group got as far as the African Eastern Coast, what got me crazy high expectations on homebrew.