Power Creep and Effects Thereof

[HWalsh]

This is a thread created because of the conversation going on over here:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=144874&start=100

To kind of put things on track and in its own thread since it has little to do with the topic.

I, personally, don't think it is fair to say:
"Old Cyber-Knights were fine! They didn't make trade offs to justify superhuman capabilities."

Of the classes that commonly go in this discussion we have:

Borgs
Crazies
Cyber-Knights
Glitterboy Pilots
Juicers

The Borg trade-offs... Yes... In RP'ness they make big ones... Kind of. If that is properly played out, and if it actually bothers the 'Borg. Not all of them are bothered by it, or they adjust to it over time. So they make a trade off in theme but not really mechanically. While theme is incredibly important, I think that mechanical trade-offs are more important when determining class balance.

Crazies... These guys give up more than anyone else... By far.

Cyber-Knights... I love me some Cyber-Knights, but original Cyber-Knights were just... Weak... And their trade offs, if played out, were pretty steep. They were mostly RP restrictions though. Much like the Borgs.

Glitterboy Pilots... Lets face it. These guys are the golden boy of Rifts. They were, by far, the most powerful starting class in the game.

Juicers... I'm going to be honest here... I have never played a Rifts game where a Juicer died of old age. I've never seen one. I'm sure they happen... I have just never seen it.

So... I think the beefing up of the CK was justified in SoT4 even if I think the changes don't mesh with the original outline of the class.

[Alrik Vas]

They would have been much better received if the changes had been in a different book and they were based off demon and monster hunting. Just my two creds.

[grandmaster z0b]

My problem with new CKs is that they got a lot more powerful combat abilities, whilst retaining all their skills (of which they have a lot for a man at arms class).

If they had just introduced a couple of things like the living cyber armor and the additional psi-sword stuff I would have been happy.

Also I don't really like the way you can just roll master psionic and get additional powers and psi-sword damage without any trade off.

In regards to your other points I like the idea of trade offs in Rifts and it does bother me when new classes are introduced that have all the powers of previous classes and more without additional penalties (particularly Mega-Juicers, Delphi-Juicers etc.).

Even magic classes have the significant penalty that they are hunted by the CS and/or psi-stalkers, and the Shifter has the whole deal with the devil thing.

[Incriptus]

I've always been a bit conflicted by the Cyber Knight.

First off they didn't seem Cyber enough for me. Just having Cyber Armor doesn't make you a cyber knight to me, So I wanted more tech.

However claiming their signature ability was the Psi Sword and to find out it does 1/2 the damage of a Vibro Sword hurt my feelings, They get to equal a Vibro Sword at level 3 and finally surpass it at level 6. Bah & Humbug. I however can see the appeal of always being armed, and having a weapon that can harm a wider variety of foes but throw me bone here.

Also the way I'm reading the main book "Some believe the cyber-knights came into being to oppose the ever growing and corrupt Coalition. Others say that they came to fight the hordes of supernatural beings that terrorize the land. The truth is that they are the champions of all who are oppressed, weak, and innocent, whether they be threatened by the Coalition or monsters from a rift." I'm not sure where the idea that they were always supposed to be mainly anti-supernatural evil. I guess it's because traditional psychic powers are better against supernatural beings (in particular Mind block See the invisible Sense evil & Sense magic are absolutely meaningless to technology). Almost seems like it was more of a weakness in the mechanics than a fact of the fluff.



Regardless like I've said before, If I were to revamp the Cyber Knights, I would separate them into two groups. The Natural Psychics would hone those abilities to fight the supernatural, and Non-Psychics would have increased Cybernetics to fight off tech. I would likely redefine the Zen Combat quasi-telemechanics into a sophisticated set of technological sensors and jammers. Actually you know what may be cool, have it set up that any bonus a tech-sensor gives instead becomes a penalty. The Knights Cyber Armor that gets a laser trained on it or gets tagged by a radar signal sends a ping to the Cyber Knight and automatically released a counter signal that throws off the return information.

Both groups would still have the same outside appearance as the other to throw off perspective enemies. For example the Non-Psychic would still have a Psi-Sword and the Psychic would still have Cyber Armor.

[Kagashi]

This is a thread created because of the conversation going on over here:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=144874&start=100

To kind of put things on track and in its own thread since it has little to do with the topic.

I, personally, don't think it is fair to say:
"Old Cyber-Knights were fine! They didn't make trade offs to justify superhuman capabilities."

Of the classes that commonly go in this discussion we have:

Borgs
Crazies
Cyber-Knights
Glitterboy Pilots
Juicers

The Borg trade-offs... Yes... In RP'ness they make big ones... Kind of. If that is properly played out, and if it actually bothers the 'Borg. Not all of them are bothered by it, or they adjust to it over time. So they make a trade off in theme but not really mechanically. While theme is incredibly important, I think that mechanical trade-offs are more important when determining class balance.

Crazies... These guys give up more than anyone else... By far.

Cyber-Knights... I love me some Cyber-Knights, but original Cyber-Knights were just... Weak... And their trade offs, if played out, were pretty steep. They were mostly RP restrictions though. Much like the Borgs.

Glitterboy Pilots... Lets face it. These guys are the golden boy of Rifts. They were, by far, the most powerful starting class in the game.

Juicers... I'm going to be honest here... I have never played a Rifts game where a Juicer died of old age. I've never seen one. I'm sure they happen... I have just never seen it.

So... I think the beefing up of the CK was justified in SoT4 even if I think the changes don't mesh with the original outline of the class.

I think your trade offs are a bit off IMHO. Granted, this isnt an exact science, 100% quantifiable, but I do think the gap with modern CKs is noticeable.

Borgs: Their physical bodies. They can never shed their "armor". They will never experience the breeze flowing through their hair, the warmth of the sun, or the gentle touch of their lover. They will forever be this looming giant, even after retirement. To me, that is pretty significant.
Crazies: You got this one, they lose their minds.
Juicers: I agree, never seen a juicer die of old age. Doesnt mean its a role play aspect you should just ignore though. Like you said, juicers give up lifespan.
Glitterboy Pilots: 770 MDC and a 3D6x10 boom gun doesnt do you any good unless you are in it. The trade off is (with any power armor or robot) is you have much better combat bonuses while piloting it and have tremendous amounts of armor and offensive power, and you dont have to sacrifice your brain, lifespan, or body to do use it; but their augmentation is not "always on" like the three previous categories. That means you can get vaped while taking a shower. That also means the previous three can still take advantage of power armor/robot training themselves and further augment themselves for even more power.
Cyber-Knights: One could argue their code they follow is a trade off. However, SoT4 makes it clear that code is more like a guideline and you dont have to follow it with no penalty to powers and just be a Fallen Knight. Once you receive training, you are still a superhuman with no trade offs. Heck, you dont even need to be psychic to receive the training (not as effective, but still better than your previous life as a Vagabond).

Prior to SoT/RUE, Cyber Knights were fine the way they were. Just dudes who were out to right wrongs and protect the innocent from evil who had common training and equipment. Sure they had psychic powers, but no more than any other psychic character class. Sure they had cybernetics, but no more than half the other character classes that started with bionics or cybernetics, and they were mundane items too. There was no need for any trade offs cause they were no more munchy than a headhunter, city rat, or operator. He was just a character that would be fun to play with the title "Sir". The trade off to power ratio was just fine.

Now, because of power creep, they suddenly have auto dodge, living armor, and dual wielding psi swords. And at the cost of living by a code, that you dont have to follow and no skill reduction. The other mentioned character classes remained fairly static (crazies now have auto dodge, but for what they give up, I think that is still balanced) in RUE, but CKs definitely moved to the top of the munchkin pyramid.

As I stated in the other thread, I too believe they moved the changes in the wrong direction. My personal fix is to have two tracks of CKs as well; one anti tech, one anti supernatural.

[Proseksword]

I don't have a problem with Cyber-Knights being buffed, but the way they were altered really pigeon-holed them into being a Coalition-Nemesis. Against a tech-wielding opponent, the new Cyber-Knights are virtually invincible at higher levels, but good luck getting help from one against a Greater Demon, as against the Supernatural they're still just some jerk with cyber-armor and a moderately effective melee weapon.

[Shark_Force]

the psi-sword is pretty work at level 1, it is true, but let's not forget... level 1 in palladium is basically someone who is almost still an apprentice. practice a skill a day for 3 months and you're almost certain to be level 2 already; practice 3-4 skills for a month and it's gone. so yeah, at level 1 your psi-sword sucks. but at level 1, you're a completely inexperienced newby... you've received your basic training, and you haven't even practiced using your skills outside of your training, let alone in actual combat.

[Nightmask]

Well as I stated in the other thread there's nothing munchkin about the Cyber-Knight upgrades (and they certainly aren't topping any imaginary 'munchkin pyramid'), they simply become more in line with much of what Palladium has put out since they were originally introduced. As noted by others their main and signature weapon was weak as it was originally and having a weapon you can't lose doesn't mean much if it can't harm your enemies well enough for you to survive for it to matter. The Cyber-Armor isn't all that impressive either given the kind of damage one can incur even in the original game. They didn't have that epic champion feel they should have been inspiring, so were revamped to be more capable. The only issue is that the revamp went contrary to their roots, an OCC created by someone to battle fell monsters and supernatural evil of all sorts bizarrely ends up with stacks of anti-technology powers and abilities which I'd expect more from a Rifts: Japan OCC than from the Cyber-Knights.

[Proseksword]

The only issue is that the revamp went contrary to their roots, an OCC created by someone to battle fell monsters and supernatural evil of all sorts bizarrely ends up with stacks of anti-technology powers and abilities which I'd expect more from a Rifts: Japan OCC than from the Cyber-Knights.

Hmmm....interesting point! Now you've got me thinking that an anti-technology Samurai from the New Empire would be really cool with the Cyber-Knight's Zen Combat!

[Svartalf]

Yeah, the Original cyber knights were there to battle evil montsters, the SOT4 buffed knights are anti coalition forces, pure and simmple.

[Athos]

Borgs - Awesomely powerful when you think for a few thousand credits they can change their armor and shed a couple hundred MDC of damage done to them. And, if they ever get a Naruni force field, they are just unstoppable. In my 20 years of off and on playing Rifts, I have never seen a borg limited by being a borg. PCs just don't sit around wringing their hands, saying woe is me, I am no longer fully human so I am not buying the downside to this one.

Crazies - Again, they are pretty powerful, even without the ultimate crazy from SA being considered, they are quite capable in combat. I hate to see them in games personally, because they are usually played so poorly. I am not asking people who play crazies to be an expert on mental illness, but I think the way they are typically played is an afront to people with mental health issues. I hate this class, and think it is basically making fun of mentally ill people. Reminds me of the old Sambo tooth paste ads.

Glitterboy Pilots - The ultimate class in Rifts. I know, all the people who play them love their power, but are very quick to point out, they are weak outside of their armor. Duh. But when are they ever outside of their precious armor during gaming situations. This is really a bogus argument. They are the most powerful combat class and that is why people love them.

Juicers - My favorite of the augmented humans. Never seen one die of old age though, and I have been gaming for a while. There is really very little downside to a juicer. The juicer uprising with variants in there makes them leap forward in power, but even the original juicer is pretty good without much of a downside.

Dragon Hatchlings - Regenerating, powerful, MDC creatures that can cast magic, but have few skills. They are in the core book and are often overlooked even though, IMO, they are second only to the GB when it comes to power level. A mid-level dragon hatchling with some spells is hard to beat.

Cyber-Knights - Lots of skills, a weaker psi sword than a mind melter, some psionics usually, and now some better combat abilities for facing tech opponents. I get it, they are a lot more powerful than they were originally, but it's about time. These are supposed to be the warriors for right in this world. The fact that their code of honor doesn't make them lawful stupid like the old D&D paladins isn't a problem for me. I like the move forward they have made, and although they will never go toe to toe with a dragon juicer or ultimate crazy, they are now a fun and better class to play.

I think bringing some of the other combat classes up isn't power creep in the game overall, it is just a re-balancing. I think the game designers after time decided that some classes were too powerful and decided to increase some of the other combat classes like juicers and cyber knights to "catch them up" with GB and dragon hatchlings to a degree. I still think GBs are the ultimate warrior in Rifts with their massive damage and defense, but at least now a 15th level cyberknight would have a chance against a 1st level GB, where as before the GB would kill him before he ever got close.

[Shark_Force]

@athos re: crazies

i think part of the idea of crazies is that they are not only literally "crazy" (ie suffering from mental illness) but also that they are in fact also "acting" crazy as part of the culture. remember, it's 100% possible to have zero studs sticking out of your skull, but the majority of crazies have them... in other words, most crazies want you to know that they're a crazy, and are deliberately taking steps to make themselves appear more "crazy".

in truth, most of the insanities you can get don't at all encourage "acting crazy" mechanically. you're far more likely to freak out over the blood that got on your pants and make you desperately try to scrub them clean than you are to get anything that will turn you into the joker.

in fact, it's quite possible that the crazy act is a facade to hide their legitimate mental illness; a paralyzing fear of slugs does not inspire fear in your enemies. the concern that you might use a grenade as brass knuckles with the pin pulled, on the other hand, is far more disconcerting, because it implies that standard tactics won't work. how do you intimidate someone into retreating when they don't have any sense of self-preservation? how do you persuade them to stop coming after you when all they care about is the game of cat and mouse they're playing?

also, there's probably some element of crazies feeling at least a little bit invincible. even normal young adults suffer from that, and crazies can actually survive all kinds of crazy stuff that would kill a normal human. falling off a 100 foot tall building will kill most ordinary humans, but in terms of SDC dealt is barely anything to a typical crazy, for example.

[SolCannibal]

Dragon Hatchlings - Regenerating, powerful, MDC creatures that can cast magic, but have few skills. They are in the core book and are often overlooked even though, IMO, they are second only to the GB when it comes to power level. A mid-level dragon hatchling with some spells is hard to beat.

That said they use the most steep XP table in the corebook - also, Gargoyles might be better power & XP-wise, though they do get some steep trade-off in their kind's (generally justified) bad rep as barbaric murderous beasts.

[HWalsh]

Dragon Hatchlings - Regenerating, powerful, MDC creatures that can cast magic, but have few skills. They are in the core book and are often overlooked even though, IMO, they are second only to the GB when it comes to power level. A mid-level dragon hatchling with some spells is hard to beat.

That said they use the most steep XP table in the corebook - also, Gargoyles might be better power & XP-wise, though they do get some steep trade-off in their kind's (generally justified) bad rep as barbaric murderous beasts.

Now, oddly I *do* see experience charts as a significant trade off. I love RP, but unless RP is strictly enforced somehow, it isn't a valid "balancing factor" to me...

Let me put it this way... I never saw a Borg fall into a depression.

In all my time, only three times, did I ever see a Glitterboy Pilot get caught with his pants down when he wasn't in his Glitterboy.

1. A GB Pilot's Main Body was depleted. We didn't have the materials to get it running again, and had to flee and leave it behind.That was the only real time I ever, and I mean ever, saw a GB pilot "suffer" for his OCC flaw.

2. A GB pilot had made an enemy, who stalked him, and when he got out of his GB to change clothes he got sniped at. He managed to get back inside his GB before he could be killed.

3.A GB pilot had to enter Free Quebec to purchase ammunition and a new ammo container for his GB. He was not attacked, and made it back to his GB unharmed.

See the problem there?

In 2 of the 3 cases the GM had to specifically design a scenario to hamper the GB pilot. Once, and only once, was he hampered through normal gameplay.

Now... Lets look at a CK...

They are weaker than the GB pilot. Their unique class defining weapon is seen by players as nothing but a weapon of absolute last resort. They are actually weaker than the Headhunter. At least pre-SoT4 they were.

SoT4 was an upgrade... A needed upgrade... It wasn't the upgrade I'd do but...

Those who say it was fine before SoT4... No. I disagree.

The fact that there are classes like the GB Pilot, who's only real weakness has to be set up by the GM specifically. Then there was a class where the main class-defining feature, in order to truly be used required the GM to specifically set it up.

I mean, seriously, how many times has the GM in your games, had the players stripped of all of their M.D. weapons, armor, supernatural/robotic/augmented strength, spells, and psionics, and then get jumped by foes that have M.D. weapons and armor?

Me? Never once.

I've had crowning moments of awesome. I have challenged a Mega Juicer, one on one, in melee combat. The fate of a small town in the balance... And... Well... Okay, I died. (Was a good death...) The Mega Juicer was well, touched, was sad that a noble warrior died... Then he left the town... Intact.

The thing is... The class either needed the GM, or had to first hand force themselves, chances for the class to measure up to the hype.

Even now... To this day... CK's rely on their new anti-tech powers to play to thier class strength.

The reason they needed the upgrade because, before it, they were simply too mediocre. I still feel that they should be viable melee combatants in a world with guns. A way to close, cut off escape, and draw opponents built to fight at range into melee combat. They can't do it now, but at least now they can take on power armored enemies with a blaster rifle and win. That is something.

[Killer Cyborg]

Uh... GBs have to leave their armor any time they're in a major town/city or a cave, or indoors, or any other place where biogas spore armor won't fit.

Is that stuff really so rate in your games?

[Killer Cyborg]

As for juicers... We had at least two face their time limit.
One got stranded in another dimension for a long time, and one got magically cured of all chemical impurities.

Generally, though they died because of the attitude of recklessness that their limited lifespan brought them.

[Killer Cyborg]

For Borgs... I don't think most players or GMs actually deal with the 55% sense of touch.
Most of the penalty is Roleplaying, but there are plenty of times when that limited sense of touch should come into play.

[HWalsh]

Uh... GBs have to leave their armor any time they're in a major town/city or a cave, or indoors, or any other place where biogas spore armor won't fit.

Is that stuff really so rate in your games?

Yeah, it is pretty rare.

Many bypass big towns whenever possible, or simply choose to wait outside. Alternatively, if they do go in, they don't get attacked so it becomes moot.

Also the GB is only like 10 feet tall... They can hunch too... As for caves, that is uncommon, though I have seen situations where firing the boom gun would be bad.

[Killer Cyborg]

Uh... GBs have to leave their armor any time they're in a major town/city or a cave, or indoors, or any other place where biogas spore armor won't fit.

Is that stuff really so rate in your games?

Yeah, it is pretty rare.

Many bypass big towns whenever possible, or simply choose to wait outside. Alternatively, if they do go in, they don't get attacked so it becomes moot.

Also the GB is only like 10 feet tall... They can hunch too... As for caves, that is uncommon, though I have seen situations where firing the boom gun would be bad.

The Boom Gun is a whole matter in its own right. Deafening other PCs makes them angry.
But I wasn't even getting into that, or the pylons and such.
Or the whole "big, shiny target" deal.

We ran adventures in all kinds of environments, many of which weren't suitable for big power armor.
Our pilots had to leave their armor behind about as often as the party had to leave their other big vehicles behind, which was fairly often.
Hell, big towns are the only place to get power armor repaired... GBs pretty much have to go there fairly often.

[HWalsh]

Uh... GBs have to leave their armor any time they're in a major town/city or a cave, or indoors, or any other place where biogas spore armor won't fit.

Is that stuff really so rate in your games?

Yeah, it is pretty rare.

Many bypass big towns whenever possible, or simply choose to wait outside. Alternatively, if they do go in, they don't get attacked so it becomes moot.

Also the GB is only like 10 feet tall... They can hunch too... As for caves, that is uncommon, though I have seen situations where firing the boom gun would be bad.

The Boom Gun is a whole matter in its own right. Deafening other PCs makes them angry.
But I wasn't even getting into that, or the pylons and such.
Or the whole "big, shiny target" deal.

We ran adventures in all kinds of environments, many of which weren't suitable for big power armor.
Our pilots had to leave their armor behind about as often as the party had to leave their other big vehicles behind, which was fairly often.
Hell, big towns are the only place to get power armor repaired... GBs pretty much have to go there fairly often.

A lot of that depends largely on the campaign though. Again, that is still specific situations designed around weakening a specific class.

Which is fine...

The problem is, with things like the Cyber-Knight it works in reverse. You didn't design adventures that would hinder the CK... You had to design adventures where the CK's main thing (pre-SoT4) could actually be used.

You had to design situations where the PC's were stripped of weapons and armor and facing an MDC threat... That was what was required for the old CK to do what the CK was designed to do. (And yes, I'm sorry, the CK was designed to rely on their Psi-Sword as their main weapon. That was exactly what was clearly intended, based on how much time was spent talking about the weapon and how important it was. The reason why they were buffed up? Obviously because people in power realized, "Huh... People don't use Cyber-Knights the way we kind of thought they would be used."

It kind of reminds me of the old DAoC MMORPG's Blademaster. The class was "intended" to use small, quick, weapons... But nobody in the end game used small and quick weapons, they all used the slowest weapons possible for the largest possible alpha strike. They had to design a special secondary system to make small, quick, weapons viable and then realized that only 10% of "PVP" Blademasters used bladed weapons... Why? Both of the enemies of Hibernia, the realm of the Blademaster, had armors that were highly resistant to slashing weapons.

Clearly the Blademaster was made to use fast striking slashing weapons. However people instead used slow striking blunted weapons. Why? The mechanics favored that style of combat.

Same with the Cyber-Knight. Clearly it was intended for them to use the Psi-Sword as their main weapon, however people instead use ranged combat and rifles. Why? The mechanics favor that style of combat.

PS. Reflection was quite good, kudos.

[Killer Cyborg]

No... Going to towns and inside buildings is pretty standard in adventuring.
It's not designed to weaken any class... It's just not going out of the way to cater to them.

And I think that you have it backward with CKs. I think they weren't designed to use the psi-swords as a main weapon, but that they were redesigned to cede to the demands of people who,we're using the class improperly.

[HWalsh]

No... Going to towns and inside buildings is pretty standard in adventuring.
It's not designed to weaken any class... It's just not going out of the way to cater to them.

And I think that you have it backward with CKs. I think they weren't designed to use the psi-swords as a main weapon, but that they were redesigned to cede to the demands of people who,we're using the class improperly.

It is possible, but unlikely... Honestly.

I'm a designer. When I make a class, or a character, and I intend for them to be used a certain way, I design them to be used a certain way, I don't usually change because of the player's use of it.

I find it far more likely that they intended the class to be a melee combatant, and a feared one, but when they found out that it simply wasn't, they tried to correct it.

[Killer Cyborg]

No... Going to towns and inside buildings is pretty standard in adventuring.
It's not designed to weaken any class... It's just not going out of the way to cater to them.

And I think that you have it backward with CKs. I think they weren't designed to use the psi-swords as a main weapon, but that they were redesigned to cede to the demands of people who,we're using the class improperly.

It is possible, but unlikely... Honestly.

I'm a designer. When I make a class, or a character, and I intend for them to be used a certain way, I design them to be used a certain way, I don't usually change because of the player's use of it.

I find it far more likely that they intended the class to be a melee combatant, and a feared one, but when they found out that it simply wasn't, they tried to correct it.

So... They intended the class to be a melee combatant, but they gave it a poor weapon and didn't require any melee skills, and didn't mention that melee was supposed to be important to them, and they required the class to have non-melee weapon proficiencies, and in the first combat example using a CK (CB1 11) they have him spend 3 out of 4 attacks using his gun against an opponent in melee range and only one attack using his vibro-blade.

Doesn't sound plausible to me.

[HWalsh]

No... Going to towns and inside buildings is pretty standard in adventuring.
It's not designed to weaken any class... It's just not going out of the way to cater to them.

And I think that you have it backward with CKs. I think they weren't designed to use the psi-swords as a main weapon, but that they were redesigned to cede to the demands of people who,we're using the class improperly.

It is possible, but unlikely... Honestly.

I'm a designer. When I make a class, or a character, and I intend for them to be used a certain way, I design them to be used a certain way, I don't usually change because of the player's use of it.

I find it far more likely that they intended the class to be a melee combatant, and a feared one, but when they found out that it simply wasn't, they tried to correct it.

So... They intended the class to be a melee combatant, but they gave it a poor weapon and didn't require any melee skills, and didn't mention that melee was supposed to be important to them, and they required the class to have non-melee weapon proficiencies, and in the first combat example using a CK (CB1 11) they have him spend 3 out of 4 attacks using his gun against an opponent in melee range and only one attack using his vibro-blade.

Doesn't sound plausible to me.

Does it sound as plausible for a group that was stated originally to fight supernatural enemies be given extremely powerful anti-tech abilities with no abilities to help against the supernatural?

Does it sound as plausible for things like a Psi-Shield to be straight up referenced to be good at parrying energy blasts and projectiles, specifically not be able to parry energy blasts or projectiles?

If the example combat was taken from an actual session? Sounds totally plausible. Why? Because the class did not excel at the original intended role. The Psi-Sword is the symbol of the Cyber-Knights. That is stated over, and over, and over again.

Lets face it... Palladium contradicts itself pretty often KC. You know that. They have fictions that involve climbing up people with Psi-Weapons (which cannot be done) they mis-state things saying they can be done, when they can't. They comment about things being popular (like the 1d6 M.D. Wilks Energy Pistol) that totally wouldn't really be popular.

Could I be wrong? Sure. I don't think I am though.
Could you be wrong? Sure. Nobody is perfect.

However when I see the Cyber-Knight... I don't see a class that was intended to be a gun wielding Headhunter-lite. I see a Knight. Drawn from the classic fantasy term. Inspired by them... Based on them... To me... That means melee. Sword and shield.

[Killer Cyborg]

No... Going to towns and inside buildings is pretty standard in adventuring.
It's not designed to weaken any class... It's just not going out of the way to cater to them.

And I think that you have it backward with CKs. I think they weren't designed to use the psi-swords as a main weapon, but that they were redesigned to cede to the demands of people who,we're using the class improperly.

It is possible, but unlikely... Honestly.

I'm a designer. When I make a class, or a character, and I intend for them to be used a certain way, I design them to be used a certain way, I don't usually change because of the player's use of it.

I find it far more likely that they intended the class to be a melee combatant, and a feared one, but when they found out that it simply wasn't, they tried to correct it.

So... They intended the class to be a melee combatant, but they gave it a poor weapon and didn't require any melee skills, and didn't mention that melee was supposed to be important to them, and they required the class to have non-melee weapon proficiencies, and in the first combat example using a CK (CB1 11) they have him spend 3 out of 4 attacks using his gun against an opponent in melee range and only one attack using his vibro-blade.

Doesn't sound plausible to me.

Does it sound as plausible for a group that was stated originally to fight supernatural enemies be given extremely powerful anti-tech abilities with no abilities to help against the supernatural?

Actually, they were originally stated to fight ALL evil, no matter what form it took.
Either way, Palladium changed the nature of the class.
That's perfectly plausible, given the history of the company- they rewrite stuff sometimes.

Does it sound as plausible for things like a Psi-Shield to be straight up referenced to be good at parrying energy blasts and projectiles, specifically not be able to parry energy blasts or projectiles?

Yup. An unfortunate number of Palladium writers don't know all of the rules.

If the example combat was taken from an actual session?

I don't think that it was.

Sounds totally plausible. Why? Because the class did not excel at the original intended role. The Psi-Sword is the symbol of the Cyber-Knights. That is stated over, and over, and over again.

Right.
And the skull is the symbol of the CS.
Symbols aren't the same as "weapon of choice."

Lets face it... Palladium contradicts itself pretty often KC.

Agreed.
The RMB was pretty tight, though. That was before a long series of other writers came in, each with a different vision of the world.

Could I be wrong? Sure. I don't think I am though.

Why not?
The only basis for the "they're melee fighters" idea is "they're the only other class besides the mind melter that can make a psi-sword."
Which isn't a heck of a lot of basis. Nobody assumes that Mind Melters are melee specialists, even though they were the kings of the Psi-Sword originally.

Could you be wrong? Sure. Nobody is perfect.

I've been wrong before.
But when it comes to Rifts, it's pretty darned rare that I'm wrong.
And in this case, I don't see any reason to believe that the original intent for the class was any different than how the original class was statted and portrayed, and that's NOT as a melee specialist.

However when I see the Cyber-Knight... I don't see a class that was intended to be a gun wielding Headhunter-lite. I see a Knight. Drawn from the classic fantasy term. Inspired by them... Based on them... To me... That means melee. Sword and shield.

Knights didn't just use swords and shields, though.
The main distinguishing feature of a knight is his horse. The second most distinguishing feature is his armor.
For weapons, they had a wide variety, although they specialized in lances as a rule.
If their lance broke, then they used one of their backup weapons- a sword, axe, or mace.

Because the sword was a backup weapon to a knight.

Regardless, I'll bet that when you think of the word "cavalry," you think of horses and swords.
But modern cavalry uses helicopters and assault rifles.
Similarly, whatever your personal stereotype of knight, knights in the future would use whatever weapon is appropriate for the technology of the time.
Say, an energy pistol of choice, an energy rifle of choice, and maybe a robot horse, a motorcycle, or a hovercycle.

The thing is, virtually everything about the original Cyberknight class runs counter to your image of them as melee specialists.
Everything about the original class runs in accordance with my image of them as high-tech warriors who used their psi-swords only for special (and appropriate) occasions, as back-up weapons for the most part.

COULD I be wrong?
Anything's possible... but there's no evidence to indicate that I am wrong in this case.

[SolCannibal]

For Borgs... I don't think most players or GMs actually deal with the 55% sense of touch.
Most of the penalty is Roleplaying, but there are plenty of times when that limited sense of touch should come into play.

Incidentally, the first character i played was sort of a twist on the OCC - a self-aware rogue creation of Archie-3 (from his "trying to guide humanity" phase before meeting the atlanteans made him crazier & evil) that claimed to be 'borg to get a measure of acceptance and freedom to act among people.

[Nightmask]

One of the problems the original version of the Cyber-Knight ran into was by the time they were going to revamp things they already had presented a range of actual anti-supernatural OCC with special powers and abilities to battle the supernatural and likely had trouble figuring out how to improve them without making it look like they were just cutting and pasting from those classes onto the Cyber-Knight when it should have been the archetype the others sprang from. It's Psi-Sword from the start should have been equal to or better than the Mind Melter version for example, like Dog Boys they should have been able to sense Supernatural Evil as a natural ability and their code not a suggestion but enforced somehow like the Cosmo-Knight's code is on them.

[Killer Cyborg]

For Borgs... I don't think most players or GMs actually deal with the 55% sense of touch.
Most of the penalty is Roleplaying, but there are plenty of times when that limited sense of touch should come into play.

Incidentally, the first character i played was sort of a twist on the OCC - a self-aware rogue creation of Archie-3 (from his "trying to guide humanity" before meeting the atlanteans made him crazier & evil) that claimed to be 'borg to get a measure of acceptance and freedom to act among people.

Playing Archie creations is awesome.

[HWalsh]

For Borgs... I don't think most players or GMs actually deal with the 55% sense of touch.
Most of the penalty is Roleplaying, but there are plenty of times when that limited sense of touch should come into play.

Incidentally, the first character i played was sort of a twist on the OCC - a self-aware rogue creation of Archie-3 (from his "trying to guide humanity" before meeting the atlanteans made him crazier & evil) that claimed to be 'borg to get a measure of acceptance and freedom to act among people.

Playing Archie creations is awesome.

On this we all agree.

[kaid]

One thing was back in the day using the RMB the cyberknights often tended to wind up piloting power armor in my campaigns. They were one of the few original book classes who could get the skills to use power armor and good HTH skills on top of it.

They played a bit more like a psionic flavored head hunter and tended to fight in very similar ways. In the original RMB their psi sword was pretty similar damage wise to the then available vibro weapons so it was not weaker it was not not initially stronger.

I myself found the anti tech focus of cyberknights a bit odd with the RUE and seige of tolkeen books but if you actually look at psionics in the game it actually makes some sense. There are way more lesser and major psionics to interact with/control/nullify tech objects than supernatural. The RUE upgrade basically makes them something like a highly specialized combat psi tech.

[Zer0 Kay]

No... Going to towns and inside buildings is pretty standard in adventuring.
It's not designed to weaken any class... It's just not going out of the way to cater to them.

And I think that you have it backward with CKs. I think they weren't designed to use the psi-swords as a main weapon, but that they were redesigned to cede to the demands of people who,we're using the class improperly.

It is possible, but unlikely... Honestly.

I'm a designer. When I make a class, or a character, and I intend for them to be used a certain way, I design them to be used a certain way, I don't usually change because of the player's use of it.

I find it far more likely that they intended the class to be a melee combatant, and a feared one, but when they found out that it simply wasn't, they tried to correct it.

So... They intended the class to be a melee combatant, but they gave it a poor weapon and didn't require any melee skills, and didn't mention that melee was supposed to be important to them, and they required the class to have non-melee weapon proficiencies, and in the first combat example using a CK (CB1 11) they have him spend 3 out of 4 attacks using his gun against an opponent in melee range and only one attack using his vibro-blade.

Doesn't sound plausible to me.

Does it sound as plausible for a group that was stated originally to fight supernatural enemies be given extremely powerful anti-tech abilities with no abilities to help against the supernatural?

Actually, they were originally stated to fight ALL evil, no matter what form it took.
Either way, Palladium changed the nature of the class.
That's perfectly plausible, given the history of the company- they rewrite stuff sometimes.

Does it sound as plausible for things like a Psi-Shield to be straight up referenced to be good at parrying energy blasts and projectiles, specifically not be able to parry energy blasts or projectiles?

Yup. An unfortunate number of Palladium writers don't know all of the rules.

If the example combat was taken from an actual session?

I don't think that it was.

Sounds totally plausible. Why? Because the class did not excel at the original intended role. The Psi-Sword is the symbol of the Cyber-Knights. That is stated over, and over, and over again.

Right.
And the skull is the symbol of the CS.
Symbols aren't the same as "weapon of choice."

Lets face it... Palladium contradicts itself pretty often KC.

Agreed.
The RMB was pretty tight, though. That was before a long series of other writers came in, each with a different vision of the world.

Could I be wrong? Sure. I don't think I am though.

Why not?
The only basis for the "they're melee fighters" idea is "they're the only other class besides the mind melter that can make a psi-sword."
Which isn't a heck of a lot of basis. Nobody assumes that Mind Melters are melee specialists, even though they were the kings of the Psi-Sword originally.

Could you be wrong? Sure. Nobody is perfect.

I've been wrong before.
But when it comes to Rifts, it's pretty darned rare that I'm wrong.
And in this case, I don't see any reason to believe that the original intent for the class was any different than how the original class was statted and portrayed, and that's NOT as a melee specialist.

However when I see the Cyber-Knight... I don't see a class that was intended to be a gun wielding Headhunter-lite. I see a Knight. Drawn from the classic fantasy term. Inspired by them... Based on them... To me... That means melee. Sword and shield.

Knights didn't just use swords and shields, though.
The main distinguishing feature of a knight is his horse. The second most distinguishing feature is his armor.
For weapons, they had a wide variety, although they specialized in lances as a rule.
If their lance broke, then they used one of their backup weapons- a sword, axe, or mace.

Because the sword was a backup weapon to a knight.

Regardless, I'll bet that when you think of the word "cavalry," you think of horses and swords.
But modern cavalry uses helicopters and assault rifles.
Similarly, whatever your personal stereotype of knight, knights in the future would use whatever weapon is appropriate for the technology of the time.
Say, an energy pistol of choice, an energy rifle of choice, and maybe a robot horse, a motorcycle, or a hovercycle.

The thing is, virtually everything about the original Cyberknight class runs counter to your image of them as melee specialists.
Everything about the original class runs in accordance with my image of them as high-tech warriors who used their psi-swords only for special (and appropriate) occasions, as back-up weapons for the most part.

COULD I be wrong?
Anything's possible... but there's no evidence to indicate that I am wrong in this case.

Actually you are wrong. The defining feature.of a knight is that they were knighted by royalty. If your not knighted your not a knight no matter how well you fight. What does that have to do with Rifts? Nothing. The Cyber Knights which may have been better named Psyber Knights aren't knighted by royalty not even any major geo-political group. Maybe they should be Psyber Palladins or Psyber Cavaliers. But they are called Cyber Knights only because the.great betrayers character from PFRPG is supposed to be their teacher and he is a knight. Kinda surprised that KS didn't kill off the CKs after the embezzlement.

[HWalsh]

Actually you are wrong. The defining feature.of a knight is that they were knighted by royalty. If your not knighted your not a knight no matter how well you fight. What does that have to do with Rifts? Nothing. The Cyber Knights which may have been better named Psyber Knights aren't knighted by royalty not even any major geo-political group. Maybe they should be Psyber Palladins or Psyber Cavaliers. But they are called Cyber Knights only because the.great betrayers character from PFRPG is supposed to be their teacher and he is a knight. Kinda surprised that KS didn't kill off the CKs after the embezzlement.

You can't punish the characters in the game, or the players of a game because one guy was a D-Bag.

[Zer0 Kay]

One thing was back in the day using the RMB the cyberknights often tended to wind up piloting power armor in my campaigns. They were one of the few original book classes who could get the skills to use power armor and good HTH skills on top of it.

They played a bit more like a psionic flavored head hunter and tended to fight in very similar ways. In the original RMB their psi sword was pretty similar damage wise to the then available vibro weapons so it was not weaker it was not not initially stronger.

I myself found the anti tech focus of cyberknights a bit odd with the RUE and seige of tolkeen books but if you actually look at psionics in the game it actually makes some sense. There are way more lesser and major psionics to interact with/control/nullify tech objects than supernatural. The RUE upgrade basically makes them something like a highly specialized combat psi tech.

The other thing that makes the anti tech make sense is the evil in all its forms part. The CS may be to them the greatest evil right now. My issue is that lord coake said not to help so there should have been two upgrade branches, maybe three. The two are anti-CS or tech and anti-xiticix or SN monster the third maybe branch I was thinking would be the CKs who went out to uphold law and they should be focused on not so much anti-sdc humanoids but something like judo or other combat types that subdue the opponent with little chance of killing them. And yet they still need to be able to hold off the other threats.

[Zer0 Kay]

Actually you are wrong. The defining feature.of a knight is that they were knighted by royalty. If your not knighted your not a knight no matter how well you fight. What does that have to do with Rifts? Nothing. The Cyber Knights which may have been better named Psyber Knights aren't knighted by royalty not even any major geo-political group. Maybe they should be Psyber Palladins or Psyber Cavaliers. But they are called Cyber Knights only because the.great betrayers character from PFRPG is supposed to be their teacher and he is a knight. Kinda surprised that KS didn't kill off the CKs after the embezzlement.

You can't punish the characters in the game, or the players of a game because one guy was a D-Bag.

uh, yes you can. Is it good business practice... No. Well maybe he could have killed off Lord Coake.

[drewkitty ~..~]

A recent problem of power creep is all the people calling to make revised World books cause they were made 15 years ago.
This is a problem because for each revised book done that is a new game book not made.

Blocking out the better books for the other settings because they don't delay the new books for the cash cow.

[glitterboy2098]

plus when books are revised (as opposed to just a sequel made) they tend to make the power creep issue even worse. a sequel book will dothe same, but at least on a sequel we're getting new material in the process.. a revised book just tacks some extra damage onto what we already had..

[Zer0 Kay]

plus when books are revised (as opposed to just a sequel made) they tend to make the power creep issue even worse. a sequel book will dothe same, but at least on a sequel we're getting new material in the process.. a revised book just tacks some extra damage onto what we already had..

And a sequel especially if game time has passed could be explained as advanced tech, magi techniques

[Killer Cyborg]

Knights didn't just use swords and shields, though.
The main distinguishing feature of a knight is his horse. The second most distinguishing feature is his armor.
For weapons, they had a wide variety, although they specialized in lances as a rule.
If their lance broke, then they used one of their backup weapons- a sword, axe, or mace.

Because the sword was a backup weapon to a knight.

Regardless, I'll bet that when you think of the word "cavalry," you think of horses and swords.
But modern cavalry uses helicopters and assault rifles.
Similarly, whatever your personal stereotype of knight, knights in the future would use whatever weapon is appropriate for the technology of the time.
Say, an energy pistol of choice, an energy rifle of choice, and maybe a robot horse, a motorcycle, or a hovercycle.

The thing is, virtually everything about the original Cyberknight class runs counter to your image of them as melee specialists.
Everything about the original class runs in accordance with my image of them as high-tech warriors who used their psi-swords only for special (and appropriate) occasions, as back-up weapons for the most part.

COULD I be wrong?
Anything's possible... but there's no evidence to indicate that I am wrong in this case.

Actually you are wrong. The defining feature.of a knight is that they were knighted by royalty. If your not knighted your not a knight no matter how well you fight. What does that have to do with Rifts? Nothing. The Cyber Knights which may have been better named Psyber Knights aren't knighted by royalty not even any major geo-political group. Maybe they should be Psyber Palladins or Psyber Cavaliers. But they are called Cyber Knights only because the.great betrayers character from PFRPG is supposed to be their teacher and he is a knight. Kinda surprised that KS didn't kill off the CKs after the embezzlement.

1. Good points.
2. Quoting an entire lengthy post like that is just an eyesore when you're only responding to the very last part of it.
3. Actually, the creator of the Cyber-Knights on Rifts Earth was "Lord Coake."
I think a Lord can knight people, at least in some systems. No king required.

[guardiandashi]

1. Good points.
2. Quoting an entire lengthy post like that is just an eyesore when you're only responding to the very last part of it.
3. Actually, the creator of the Cyber-Knights on Rifts Earth was "Lord Coake."
I think a Lord can knight people, at least in some systems. No king required.

my understanding of knighting is that it depends on the order.

with that said typically you either need to be a king, OR a high ranking member of the "order" of the knights group in order to create a new knight.

the royal option is how many knight orders got created in the first place. of course many/most of the royals got knighted at some point more or less "because" so it was kind of a double whammy for them to knight someone.

so if Lord Coake was a knight of the order of cyber Knights then he can (or may be able to ) knight others to the order.

IE if you were a Knight of the Templars, you may be able to create other Templars, but you would NOT be able to knight someone to the order of the rose.

[Zer0 Kay]

Knights didn't just use swords and shields, though.
The main distinguishing feature of a knight is his horse. The second most distinguishing feature is his armor.
For weapons, they had a wide variety, although they specialized in lances as a rule.
If their lance broke, then they used one of their backup weapons- a sword, axe, or mace.

Because the sword was a backup weapon to a knight.

Regardless, I'll bet that when you think of the word "cavalry," you think of horses and swords.
But modern cavalry uses helicopters and assault rifles.
Similarly, whatever your personal stereotype of knight, knights in the future would use whatever weapon is appropriate for the technology of the time.
Say, an energy pistol of choice, an energy rifle of choice, and maybe a robot horse, a motorcycle, or a hovercycle.

The thing is, virtually everything about the original Cyberknight class runs counter to your image of them as melee specialists.
Everything about the original class runs in accordance with my image of them as high-tech warriors who used their psi-swords only for special (and appropriate) occasions, as back-up weapons for the most part.

COULD I be wrong?
Anything's possible... but there's no evidence to indicate that I am wrong in this case.

Actually you are wrong. The defining feature.of a knight is that they were knighted by royalty. If your not knighted your not a knight no matter how well you fight. What does that have to do with Rifts? Nothing. The Cyber Knights which may have been better named Psyber Knights aren't knighted by royalty not even any major geo-political group. Maybe they should be Psyber Palladins or Psyber Cavaliers. But they are called Cyber Knights only because the.great betrayers character from PFRPG is supposed to be their teacher and he is a knight. Kinda surprised that KS didn't kill off the CKs after the embezzlement.

1. Good points.
2. Quoting an entire lengthy post like that is just an eyesore when you're only responding to the very last part of it.
3. Actually, the creator of the Cyber-Knights on Rifts Earth was "Lord Coake."
I think a Lord can knight people, at least in some systems. No king required.

Lol,
1. uh thanks
2. Well, my excuse is I've mostly been using a phone. What's yours, or are you going for irony?
3. Where on this planet, throughout history has a Lord without the authority of royalty ever been able to KNIGHT for a country?

[Zer0 Kay]

1. Good points.
2. Quoting an entire lengthy post like that is just an eyesore when you're only responding to the very last part of it.
3. Actually, the creator of the Cyber-Knights on Rifts Earth was "Lord Coake."
I think a Lord can knight people, at least in some systems. No king required.

my understanding of knighting is that it depends on the order.

with that said typically you either need to be a king, OR a high ranking member of the "order" of the knights group in order to create a new knight.

the royal option is how many knight orders got created in the first place. of course many/most of the royals got knighted at some point more or less "because" so it was kind of a double whammy for them to knight someone.

so if Lord Coake was a knight of the order of cyber Knights then he can (or may be able to ) knight others to the order.

IE if you were a Knight of the Templars, you may be able to create other Templars, but you would NOT be able to knight someone to the order of the rose.

But he was not, he made them.

[Shark_Force]

3. Where on this planet, throughout history has a Lord without the authority of royalty ever been able to KNIGHT for a country?

who says he's knighting them for a country?

for that matter, this is rifts earth. to be a country pretty much requires nothing more than having a town and saying you're a country.

[Zer0 Kay]

3. Where on this planet, throughout history has a Lord without the authority of royalty ever been able to KNIGHT for a country?

who says he's knighting them for a country?

for that matter, this is rifts earth. to be a country pretty much requires nothing more than having a town and saying you're a country.

Lol true enough. However he has never declared it, if he didnthe CS would invade.

[HWalsh]

To continue this thread (without continuing on Cyber-Knights, though that is 100% relevant as we are discussing power creep in general) what are people's thoughts on the power creeps from the Magic System or the Power Creep on standard "weapons and equipment" as it were?

[Killer Cyborg]

1. Good points.
2. Quoting an entire lengthy post like that is just an eyesore when you're only responding to the very last part of it.
3. Actually, the creator of the Cyber-Knights on Rifts Earth was "Lord Coake."
I think a Lord can knight people, at least in some systems. No king required.

Lol,
1. uh thanks
2. Well, my excuse is I've mostly been using a phone. What's yours, or are you going for irony?
3. Where on this planet, throughout history has a Lord without the authority of royalty ever been able to KNIGHT for a country?

1. No problem.
2. I wish that the irony was deliberate. But I just screwed up.
My only possible excuse is the large amount of cough syrup I've been ingesting lately.
(Also, I suspected that phone posts might be the problem. I've done the same thing for the same reason at times, so I totally get it. I try to hold off on responding to really lengthy posts until I'm on my computer, though sometimes it's not that easy.)
3. What makes you think that Lord Coake lacks the authority of royalty?
Somebody made him a Lord, presumably.

[glitterboy2098]

you don't have to be royalty to become a knight, if your part of an order. groups like the templars and such started as knights of various kingdoms, but when they founded their order they inducted their own knights, ones that were not knighted by a kingdom. most kingdoms recognized the Templar's (and the other order's, like the hospitiliers, the tuetonic knights, etc) as knights, even though they were an independant organization, with no direct ties to any one kingdom (save perhaps the kingdom of jerusalem, which was more of a "well that is where their HQ is") in fact this lack of ties was what made them so effective.. it let the templar's become a trading and banking powerhouse, because they were motly nuetral in the power struggles, the hospitiliers become the main defense for pilgrims in the holy land, etc.

in rifts, lord coake (who, like the founders of the historical orders, was a lord in his homeland but had little status where he was) formed the cyberknights, creating an order able to establish its own rules regarding who can be elevated as a knight.

it is also worth pointing out that outside the orders, you were not knighted by the king.. but by the fuedal lord your swore fealty to. and one knight could knight another person, since knighthood itself was a low level fuedal rank. that scene in Kingdom of heaven where the guy knights a whole crowd? perfectly legal by medieval traditions, albeit unconventional. the guy is the baron of ebilin, and had the power to knight anyone he wanted into his own service.. the blocks on it are not who can be knighted, but rather how many knights and men at arms you can have in your service before the person you swore fealty to starts thinking your planning a coup.. in times of war, people get knighted left and right to fill out the armies, it is mostly a case of getting the hardware to do the job.

as militaries moved away from the knight, and more to the mass levies of pikes and guns, and kingdoms gave way to centralized nations, the rank of knight started becomng more honorary, and became something only a king/queen/emperor could give you.. a reward for good service, not a military rank.

[grandmaster z0b]

One thing was back in the day using the RMB the cyberknights often tended to wind up piloting power armor in my campaigns. They were one of the few original book classes who could get the skills to use power armor and good HTH skills on top of it.

They played a bit more like a psionic flavored head hunter and tended to fight in very similar ways. In the original RMB their psi sword was pretty similar damage wise to the then available vibro weapons so it was not weaker it was not not initially stronger.

That was one path, the other was to go all out on Techno-Wiz gear, that usually helped those who wanted to take the melee approach.

Firstly get a flame sword for the 4d6 MD as soon as possible.

Secondly get TW enhanced armor; typically Armor of Ithan, Supernatural Strength and Impervious to Energy were the best for a melee combatant.

That way you could generally close on most enemies without taking much damage and then get into melee with the flame sword.

[SolCannibal]

One thing was back in the day using the RMB the cyberknights often tended to wind up piloting power armor in my campaigns. They were one of the few original book classes who could get the skills to use power armor and good HTH skills on top of it.

They played a bit more like a psionic flavored head hunter and tended to fight in very similar ways. In the original RMB their psi sword was pretty similar damage wise to the then available vibro weapons so it was not weaker it was not not initially stronger.

That was one path, the other was to go all out on Techno-Wiz gear, that usually helped those who wanted to take the melee approach.

Firstly get a flame sword for the 4d6 MD as soon as possible.

Secondly get TW enhanced armor; typically Armor of Ithan, Supernatural Strength and Impervious to Energy were the best for a melee combatant.

That way you could generally close on most enemies without taking much damage and then get into melee with the flame sword.

That said could not a combat-oriented Mystic try out a similar combination?

[Shark_Force]

That said could not a combat-oriented Mystic try out a similar combination?

i suppose so, but you'd have fewer attacks per melee and less access to physical skills and the resulting combat bonuses, wouldn't you?

[SolCannibal]

That said could not a combat-oriented Mystic try out a similar combination?

i suppose so, but you'd have fewer attacks per melee and less access to physical skills and the resulting combat bonuses, wouldn't you?

Indeed - i ask myself how would some sort of "battle mystic" work out...