Coalition States Psi-Battalion

[Shark_Force]

psychic powers *can* be natural. dragons, for example, exhibit various levels of natural psionic capabilities, with some (the royal frilled in the RUE for example) coming fairly close to a mind melter. various other RCCs and races can have psionics naturally as well (though most that have mind melter or close to mind melter levels of psionics are generally RCCs that don't get another OCC, with the notable exception of demigods and godlings).

but humans (and indeed, most races) are not one of the races for whom psionics naturally develop to master level, or at least not as a mind melter.

it is possible to induce psionics into a human via gene-splicing in some instinctive knowledge, or by sticking implants into their brain (MOM conversion), or by various other means. none of these indicate that those abilities develop without any effort for mind melters, however.

for regular humans at least, some amount of effort goes into being a mind melter. it isn't just instinctive knowledge. it starts with a natural ability, but must be developed if it is to reach the level of a mind melter.

other psychic OCCs may or may not start off with many skills. in general, this comes at a trade-off in terms of how much psychic power they have; a psi-tech may have a number of skills, but last i checked didn't have as powerful psychic abilities as a mind melter outside of interacting with technology, for example.

(though again, this is not to say that after having already reached the point where they are a full-blown mind melter, they could not continue training in various skills as well... the rogue scholar being one source for additional education, but not the only one in the megaversal system. if psi-battalion needs mind melters who know how to dig pit traps and make reliable estimates of the size of an army, they most likely have access to various training programs they can send mind melters to, if they so desire.

with that said, psi-battalion does have a lot of minor and major psychics last i recall... if they have need of someone with special training, it is most probable that they just find a person with that training and recruit them into psi-battalion. after all, if you figure there are, say, 10,000 people with the skill set you want in the military, some 3,000 of them will have some level of psychic abilities... rather than sending a mind melter through an extra few years of training (during which time you are not benefitting from their prior training, nor are they gaining in experience as a mind melter), you could always just have one of those people do the job.

so, unless the job explicitly requires one person to have both master psionics and a specific skill, i wouldn't expect psi-battalion to typically train a mind melter to do the job. i believe that they could (by giving additional training to a mind melter beyond that required to become a mind melter, which will require additional time and effort on the part of the mind melter), but i also believe it is probably quite uncommon.

[runebeo]

I'd let a Psi-Battalion trainee spend related skills 2 or 3 to buy a Mercenary MOS but limit to only one and let them pick the odd skill to complement the MOS. Psi-Ghost/Paratrooper I'd allow but cut all extra skills down to just 2 to start. Still be a killer character even with a 20 lbs weight limit and fun as hell

[Tor]

If you got a mindmelter in psi-batt and you want him to be special forces, ofc he is going to know skills special forces operatives have. I'd slash his first level bonus skills in half, and slash 1st level occ related skills and secondary skills in half.

Naw, per the NPC in Psyscape a Mind Melter can certainly be Special Forces, but the means of doing that would be through OCC changing, you couldn't advance those super psionics simultaneously with the unique SF skills of that class which Melters can't select.

[Secondhand Smoke]

I think it's ridiculous how they try and gimp psychics with the "They have no skills because they spent the time forming their powers excuse."

If you got a mindmelter in psi-batt and you want him to be special forces, ofc he is going to know skills special forces operatives have. I'd slash his first level bonus skills in half, and slash 1st level occ related skills and secondary skills in half.

There you are that represents him developing his powers. Or alternatively slash his first level occ related skills in half and don't give him secondary skills for first level.

"Don't give me that it imbalances the game rubbish" it's Rifts. This game is not balanced.

Kev made the wrong call on this mechanic, it's impractical, illogical and a headsore.

Sure.
And if you've got a Medical Doctor, and you want him to also be a Lawyer, and maybe a Nuclear Physicist, and also Special Forces, OF COURSE he's going to know all the skills that Layers, Nuclear Physicists, and Special Forces have in addition to his MD skills.
It's not like there's any kind of limit on people to learn whatever they'd like to know, instead of just what they have the time/discipline/brainpower to know.

Realistically, I think that everybody should get ALL skills, because... well, wouldn't they want to have them?

When you have them raised in a programme intensive environment such as Psi-Battalion that focuses in the development of powers (ie other psionics would show and help them how to do develop and help train them - which is only logical you condescending ass. I'm sure you'd agree would save time) and as it's a military programme, military skills WOULD be taught.

I agree- SOME military skills would be taught.
But if the CS had the capability to train somebody fully as Special Forces AND another full OCC worth of abilities by the time they're ready to start adventuring, then they'd already be doing that.
They'd have Special Forces MDs, and Special Forces Lawyers, and Special Forces, and so forth.
OR their Special Forces would have essentially twice as many skills.

In the context of the game, what the CS would have would be Mind Melters who have use all their free (OCC Related and Secondary Skills) to pick or replicate military skills as best as they could, OR they'd have a brand new OCC that had more military skills than a normal Mind Melter, but that didn't have as many as regular special forces.

Rather than write up a new special OCC for each psychic class in Psi-Bat, Palladium went with the simpler option. I don't think it was exactly a big mistake on their part.

I noticed in your eagerness to respond in such a rude fashion you missed the point.

If you reread the post that I was responding to, and you pay attention to its tone, I think that my response was perfectly appropriate.

I apologise for being so juvenile.

Given that Psi-Battalion is a military action unit however, I think it would hardly have been taxing for the palladium writers to write up an additional few classes that the psychics in Psi-Battalion would train in. A commando like class for Psi-Nullifers, trained for the purpose of taking out magic users? A special forces psi stalker task force? Heck even Mind melters with some grunt skills because they are in the army after all and it's just downright illogical to have army units with no army training or army skills. I don't buy into the whole using related skills to make him military. If he's military it should be his main skills . Why not add a psionic officer occ?
Heck, pay me and I'll write up a few ideas for you guys.

[Secondhand Smoke]

I'd let a Psi-Battalion trainee spend related skills 2 or 3 to buy a Mercenary MOS but limit to only one and let them pick the odd skill to complement the MOS. Psi-Ghost/Paratrooper I'd allow but cut all extra skills down to just 2 to start. Still be a killer character even with a 20 lbs weight limit and fun as hell

Wow, a Psi-Ghost/Paratrooper would be amazing!!!!

That is a fantastic idea! So many fun things to do with this combo my mind is unraveling due to all the sweet possibilities.

[Killer Cyborg]

I apologise for being so juvenile.

No worries.

Given that Psi-Battalion is a military action unit however, I think it would hardly have been taxing for the palladium writers to write up an additional few classes that the psychics in Psi-Battalion would train in. A commando like class for Psi-Nullifers, trained for the purpose of taking out magic users? A special forces psi stalker task force? Heck even Mind melters with some grunt skills because they are in the army after all and it's just downright illogical to have army units with no army training or army skills. I don't buy into the whole using related skills to make him military. If he's military it should be his main skills . Why not add a psionic officer occ?
Heck, pay me and I'll write up a few ideas for you guys.

lol
The system seems to be that you write stuff up, submit it to the Rifter, and hope that it goes somewhere.

In an ideal world, I'd have liked to see some CS psychic OCCs specifically, or perhaps alternate versions like the CS Psi-Stalker vs. the Wild Psi-Stalker, or something.
Or at least a few minor templates that say something like "A psi-bat Mind Melter is just like an ordinary Mind Melter, except change the following skills..." or something.

Of course, for that matter, I'd have preferred if the Nega-Psychics stuck to the BtS version that flat-out didn't believe in magic/psionics/whatever.
And I'd have preferred a lot of changes or differences from various things that they did.

Maybe when I get time, I'll come up with a kind of skill analysis, to see how I'd convert a Mind Melter to Special Forces if I could.

(Although, I think the easiest way might still be to just dual class things. Either have them start as Mind Melter, and swap to Special Forces, or to have them start as Special Forces and swap to Mind Melter, freezing the old skills/abilities after the swap.)

[RiftJunkie]

I think that Rifts makes it clear that Psychics must spend a lot of time learning their abilities, usually at the cost of skills. So whilst it seems to make sense, you'd think that they would either lose some psychic powers or the skills.

Actually no Rifts doesn't make something like that clear, one can have psychic powers simply because you don't have to train to use any of them. While some classes can actually train you to have psychic powers (like Cyber-Knights) there are ways of requiring them that require little more than some gene-splicing or a brain implant and *poof* there they are. Which is likely why Palladium dropped the skill penalty for having major psychic powers at creation in the ultimate edition, it didn't make sense.

It actually intimates that pretty hard. In the Skills sections of both the Burster and Mind Melter (RUE, pp142&151, respectively) it states that these two classes have 'minimal education, having spent much of his time learning and mastering the complexity of psionic powers'. Apparently this is supposed to be a fairly common penomenon (according to RUE) for Master Psychics.

Yeah exactly. There's also the issue of game balance. A Mind Melter is a powerful class with a limited skill set, giving them special forces skills on top of those psychic powers should cause them to need more XP per level.

It's fine in a campaign where the other players were also very powerful i.e. Godlings, Sea Inquisitors, Hatchling Dragons etc.

This has to be the first time I've ever heard of a Mind Melter being on the same level as a Godling or Dragon Hatchling. Inquisitors can be really powerful, but it depends on what class you put it with.

[RiftJunkie]

Please forgive if this comes across as a rant...

I used to think Psionic Characters had the edge, at least at lower levels, than Magic Users. Magi used to only get around 2 to 3 spells off per melee, sometimes less depending on how high a spell used. Psionics are each action, mostly. Now a Mage can cast levels 1 through 6 per action. This really moves them up on the power scale. RIFTS IS NOT BALANCED, NEVER HAS BEEN. That's ok, life isn't balanced either. Mages are supposed to spend a lot of time studying/developing spells so they can figure them out as they level up. Only the Mystic types get spells on an intuitive level. The rest buy spells from a tutor, win them by getting another mages spell book, or the previously mentioned studying/developing by level. There are only so many hours in a day. Psionic characters have their powers come to them much more like the Mystic. This should not effect skill selection as drastically as it does. Psionics should probably get a fix/upgrade or whatever you want to call it.

A LLW has 14 OCC Skills, 7 Related and 6 Secondary.
A Shifter has 14 OCC Skills, 6 Related and 2 Secondary.
A Techno Wizard has 18 OCC Skills, 7 Related and 5 Secondary.
A Mystic has 16 OCC Skills, 7 Related and 5 Secondary.

So why would a Mind Melter only get 11 OCC Skills, 6 Related and 6 Secondary if he's more closely related to the Mystic?

A CyberKnight has 19 OCC Skills, 12 Related and 6 Secondary Skills and CAN BE A MASTER PSIONIC!
There is NO compromise in skills there. Sounds like another precedent found in RUE that holding a Master Psionic down is overlooking cut and paste.

A Psi Slayer gets 20 OCC Skills, 5 Related and 4 Secondary. These guys get Psi Sword at 1ST Level!!!

Why is the Melter held back so? Mages used to get good power to start and gain huge power as they level. Now, Mages have huge power that keeps going up. Magical Power Creep?
Once again, Rifts is not balanced and that's ok. I just don't understand how everything gets a bump except the Mind Melter especially when the text behind it gets contradicted. Sorry if this was a rant.

[Svartalf]

Ask Kevin.

The difference between a mind melter and a MPsi CK is that the melter mostly had to spend the time to discover and teach himself his powers. A CK's powers are taught him as part of the disciplines of the order, he's taught and guided into them at the same time he learns the other skills of the class.

[Shark_Force]

most magic users don't start with the majority of their power. the kind that learn spells by study have to invest a lot of effort and money in doing so, and start with comparatively low level stuff (some of which is really good, i'll grant you, but still, typically very limited in range, and they can really struggle with certain things like full environmental body armour). access to high level spells is mostly a theoretical thing (with some exceptions; shifters can get a few, for example, and the more powerful spellcasters like temporal wizards can get a bunch), once you get past about level 8. the ones that learn by meditation are almost never going to see so much as a single level 8 spell, and even level 7 is pretty rare for them to reach.

also, minor side note: it's level 5 spells that they can cast in one action. level 6+ needs 2+ actions and can be interrupted.

in contrast, by the time you're level 3 as a mind melter, you've pretty much got your entire list of most-wanted powers, and probably a bunch that are kinda "meh". I mean, this has both good and bad sides, but basically, once you've reached level 3 as a mind melter, you're only really gaining in strength by being able to swing another vibro-weapon using super telekinesis, increasing range, and improving your ISP reserve a bit. you've probably already got the powers you're going to be using for the rest of your adventuring career, for the most part.

the bad side, imo, is that after a few levels, basically all mind melters start looking identical. there are a few powers that tend to be the most versatile and useful, and the majority of the time you're just going to use those. one area where they can really shine, though, is in the use of psionics while astrally projecting... magic users have nothing quite like that, but with psionics you can use any power with a range beyond yourself while astrally projecting and manipulate the real world, and only a few powers can even work on you at all.

with that said, I do think psionics could use some fixing up. but I disagree that the proper area to focus on is skills. I'd much rather see psionics made more interesting for the mind melter by making their psionics more interesting. I'd love to see a system where you have to pick and choose powers because there are a number of compelling choices. i'd love to see a system that rewards specialization as well; to get the best healing powers (which to me at least should include bio-manipulation), you pick up other healing powers related to it, and along the way you make it so that a "healing" psychic character is just as interesting of a choice as any other type. i'd love to see lesser versions of special abilities granted to various types of psychic creatures available to a mind melter (which imo, would be better off as a subset of a general psychic class that specializes in sensitive powers and manipulating the minds of others, thus truly being worthy of the name mind melter). I don't need to see them flying along at mach two or anything, but i'd love to see a power that allows psychic flight at a decent speed.

to me, this kind of system would do far more for mind melters than adding a few skills to them anyways.

also, cyberknight master psionic characters are nowhere near the mind melter when it comes to psychic powers. they get what, like, 5 power selections, 3 of which are fixed? with the ones they get to pick and choose limited in nature as well... they have those skills because if all they had was psionics, they'd be weak as can be. not sure about psi-slayers, though.

(also, on a side note, psionics actually can compensate for not having a lot of skills... mentally possess others is like having a disguise skill. prowl is a lot less necessary when you can astrally project. object reading covers a lot of knowledge, and telemechanics gives a *lot* of virtual skills, including basically every piloting skill and modern WP).

[Nightmask]

Ask Kevin.

The difference between a mind melter and a MPsi CK is that the melter mostly had to spend the time to discover and teach himself his powers. A CK's powers are taught him as part of the disciplines of the order, he's taught and guided into them at the same time he learns the other skills of the class.

Except someone who's a natural psychic like a Mind Melter has no reason to be spending massive amounts of time discovering or teaching himself his powers, they're natural to him and no more reason for him to have to go through such arduous effort to learn them than the effort we don't see many others who have psychic powers without penalties from it in regards to education. Why would one have to arduously learn how to resist poisons as a Mind Melter when the same identical psychic power requires no time spent having to learn or master it at all for a minor psychic? Especially when the master psychic is the one with the most natural ability and potential? It's ridiculous.

With the Cyber-Knight meanwhile you've got someone who even without natural potential manages to STILL learn powerful abilities like the Psi-Sword and qualify as a master psychic like the Mind Melter AND gets a wide range of skills as well. So you end up with Mind Melters contradictorily portrayed as someone with the most natural potential yet their natural potential has them bizarrely requiring far more effort to properly exploit that potential and use their abilities. It'd be like saying someone was a natural artist yet required intensive training and practice to be able to do better than a stick figure while the guy with no talent at art at all has no problems doing way better than the stick figure. You've the natural presented as just the opposite, it just doesn't make sense. Mind Melters are so bursting with potential they should have it easiest when learning (really more just discovering what abilities they have) to use their psychic powers and have far more range on how many skills are available as well.

[Killer Cyborg]

Ask Kevin.

The difference between a mind melter and a MPsi CK is that the melter mostly had to spend the time to discover and teach himself his powers. A CK's powers are taught him as part of the disciplines of the order, he's taught and guided into them at the same time he learns the other skills of the class.

Except someone who's a natural psychic like a Mind Melter has no reason to be spending massive amounts of time discovering or teaching himself his powers, they're natural to him and no more reason for him to have to go through such arduous effort to learn them than the effort we don't see many others who have psychic powers without penalties from it in regards to education.

There's a difference between learning one or two psychic powers and in learning a bunch of them.
You might not like it, but the official nature of psionics is clear- they take effort to learn.
It's mentioned back in the BtS description of psionic powers, it's mentioned in the RMB, it's mentioned consistently up through RUE.

Why would one have to arduously learn how to resist poisons as a Mind Melter when the same identical psychic power requires no time spent having to learn or master it at all for a minor psychic? Especially when the master psychic is the one with the most natural ability and potential? It's ridiculous.

It's not that a Mind Melter has to spend a lot of effort to learn to Resist Poisons.
It's that he has to spend a lot of effort to Resist Poisons AND Resist Fire AND blah, blah, blah, AND so forth.
They have a volume of powers and abilities (not to mention an ISP reserve) that minor psychics don't have.

Mind Melters are so bursting with potential they should have it easiest when learning (really more just discovering what abilities they have) to use their psychic powers and have far more range on how many skills are available as well.

Well, no.
If you look, a Mind Melter has used most of his potential up in the development of his psychic powers.

RUE 151
Most of the psychic's Potential Psionic Energy has been expended in the development of his psychic abilities.

They're not bursting with potential. They've used virtually all of their potential up in the process of becoming Mind Melters.

[Svartalf]

Ask Kevin.

The difference between a mind melter and a MPsi CK is that the melter mostly had to spend the time to discover and teach himself his powers. A CK's powers are taught him as part of the disciplines of the order, he's taught and guided into them at the same time he learns the other skills of the class.

Except someone who's a natural psychic like a Mind Melter has no reason to be spending massive amounts of time discovering or teaching himself his powers, they're natural to him and no more reason for him to have to go through such arduous effort to learn them than the effort we don't see many others who have psychic powers without penalties from it in regards to education. Why would one have to arduously learn how to resist poisons as a Mind Melter when the same identical psychic power requires no time spent having to learn or master it at all for a minor psychic? Especially when the master psychic is the one with the most natural ability and potential? It's ridiculous.

With the Cyber-Knight meanwhile you've got someone who even without natural potential manages to STILL learn powerful abilities like the Psi-Sword and qualify as a master psychic like the Mind Melter AND gets a wide range of skills as well. So you end up with Mind Melters contradictorily portrayed as someone with the most natural potential yet their natural potential has them bizarrely requiring far more effort to properly exploit that potential and use their abilities. It'd be like saying someone was a natural artist yet required intensive training and practice to be able to do better than a stick figure while the guy with no talent at art at all has no problems doing way better than the stick figure. You've the natural presented as just the opposite, it just doesn't make sense. Mind Melters are so bursting with potential they should have it easiest when learning (really more just discovering what abilities they have) to use their psychic powers and have far more range on how many skills are available as well.

Unlike, say, a mystic, who gets his power intuitively and "goes with the flow", a melter has a great measure of conscious choice about his future powers and must spend more time focussing on shaping his own potential.

[Nightmask]

Ask Kevin.

The difference between a mind melter and a MPsi CK is that the melter mostly had to spend the time to discover and teach himself his powers. A CK's powers are taught him as part of the disciplines of the order, he's taught and guided into them at the same time he learns the other skills of the class.

Except someone who's a natural psychic like a Mind Melter has no reason to be spending massive amounts of time discovering or teaching himself his powers, they're natural to him and no more reason for him to have to go through such arduous effort to learn them than the effort we don't see many others who have psychic powers without penalties from it in regards to education. Why would one have to arduously learn how to resist poisons as a Mind Melter when the same identical psychic power requires no time spent having to learn or master it at all for a minor psychic? Especially when the master psychic is the one with the most natural ability and potential? It's ridiculous.

With the Cyber-Knight meanwhile you've got someone who even without natural potential manages to STILL learn powerful abilities like the Psi-Sword and qualify as a master psychic like the Mind Melter AND gets a wide range of skills as well. So you end up with Mind Melters contradictorily portrayed as someone with the most natural potential yet their natural potential has them bizarrely requiring far more effort to properly exploit that potential and use their abilities. It'd be like saying someone was a natural artist yet required intensive training and practice to be able to do better than a stick figure while the guy with no talent at art at all has no problems doing way better than the stick figure. You've the natural presented as just the opposite, it just doesn't make sense. Mind Melters are so bursting with potential they should have it easiest when learning (really more just discovering what abilities they have) to use their psychic powers and have far more range on how many skills are available as well.

Unlike, say, a mystic, who gets his power intuitively and "goes with the flow", a melter has a great measure of conscious choice about his future powers and must spend more time focussing on shaping his own potential.

The PLAYER has the conscious choice regarding what the Mind Melter gets, we haven't seen where it's so obvious that somehow the Mind Melter is picking and choosing (particularly since they generally aren't said to have any knowledge of the powers ahead of time so certainly can't be consciously trying to get powers when they don't even know what they all are), indeed it's as much intuitive for them as anyone else. In any case the idea that they have to put prodigious amounts of effort into developing their powers just isn't supported by what we actually know about psi-powers and how it doesn't really take anything away from one's learning ability to have them. Indeed it would be far more logical for a class like the Cyber-Knight to have a low number of skills given you're taking people without the potential and turning them into master psychics. Indeed they're a good example of why someone like a Mind Melter should have more skills; if the guys with no potential/natural ability can with intense training achieve master psychic abilities including a Psi-Sword then certainly the people with massive natural ability should have no problems developing them and having a large number of skills like the Cyber-Knight as well.

[eliakon]

Ask Kevin.

The difference between a mind melter and a MPsi CK is that the melter mostly had to spend the time to discover and teach himself his powers. A CK's powers are taught him as part of the disciplines of the order, he's taught and guided into them at the same time he learns the other skills of the class.

Except someone who's a natural psychic like a Mind Melter has no reason to be spending massive amounts of time discovering or teaching himself his powers, they're natural to him and no more reason for him to have to go through such arduous effort to learn them than the effort we don't see many others who have psychic powers without penalties from it in regards to education. Why would one have to arduously learn how to resist poisons as a Mind Melter when the same identical psychic power requires no time spent having to learn or master it at all for a minor psychic? Especially when the master psychic is the one with the most natural ability and potential? It's ridiculous.

With the Cyber-Knight meanwhile you've got someone who even without natural potential manages to STILL learn powerful abilities like the Psi-Sword and qualify as a master psychic like the Mind Melter AND gets a wide range of skills as well. So you end up with Mind Melters contradictorily portrayed as someone with the most natural potential yet their natural potential has them bizarrely requiring far more effort to properly exploit that potential and use their abilities. It'd be like saying someone was a natural artist yet required intensive training and practice to be able to do better than a stick figure while the guy with no talent at art at all has no problems doing way better than the stick figure. You've the natural presented as just the opposite, it just doesn't make sense. Mind Melters are so bursting with potential they should have it easiest when learning (really more just discovering what abilities they have) to use their psychic powers and have far more range on how many skills are available as well.

Unlike, say, a mystic, who gets his power intuitively and "goes with the flow", a melter has a great measure of conscious choice about his future powers and must spend more time focussing on shaping his own potential.

The PLAYER has the conscious choice regarding what the Mind Melter gets, we haven't seen where it's so obvious that somehow the Mind Melter is picking and choosing (particularly since they generally aren't said to have any knowledge of the powers ahead of time so certainly can't be consciously trying to get powers when they don't even know what they all are), indeed it's as much intuitive for them as anyone else. In any case the idea that they have to put prodigious amounts of effort into developing their powers just isn't supported by what we actually know about psi-powers and how it doesn't really take anything away from one's learning ability to have them. Indeed it would be far more logical for a class like the Cyber-Knight to have a low number of skills given you're taking people without the potential and turning them into master psychics. Indeed they're a good example of why someone like a Mind Melter should have more skills; if the guys with no potential/natural ability can with intense training achieve master psychic abilities including a Psi-Sword then certainly the people with massive natural ability should have no problems developing them and having a large number of skills like the Cyber-Knight as well.

There is a false comparison here though.
The Mind Melter class (as written) is the normal mind melter....which is NOT in an intensive training program since youth...where as the Cyber Knight IS. Yes, it could, in theory learn a bunch of skills, if it was in an intensive training program. And yes, Psi-Bat is a good example of someplace that could offer that training. Which means that if the GM wants, they can create a different Class to represent it....but that class wont be the 'generic Mind Melter' then would it?

[Shark_Force]

not only are the cyber-knights an example of someone who's had constant in-depth training, the simple fact is that they don't compare to a mind melter in psionic might.

sure, a cyber-knight can be trained to be a master psychic. that's nice. it's worth +2 to save vs psionics, and that's it, though. it does absolutely nothing beyond that.

the simple fact of the matter is that a master psionic cyber-knight has a handful of powers and considerably less ISP, not to mention a dramatically slower rate of recovering ISP, as compared to a mind melter.

if you want to find an example to suggest that a mind melter should have more skills, you'd need to show someone with as many skills as a cyber-knight plus as many skills as a mind melter. otherwise, all we have is evidence that both do a lot of training (though the cyber-knights likely go through a somewhat more organized program, since iirc most mind melters are noted as being largely self-trained), and the mind melter focuses on psionics at the expense of skills while the cyber-knight focuses on skills at the expense of psionics.

so yes, the cyber-knight master psionic character does have more skills. but also a heck of a lot less psionics.

[kaid]

Psionics really could use some love. As mentioned a mind melter can cherry pick pretty much every "good" and by good I mean efficient to use and generally effective psi power by level 3. There are a handful of amazing psionics and a whole lot that are either insanely situational or just pointless and nobody would ever willingly spend ISP to use them.

With the changes to spell casting in the RUE a lot of powers like intuitive combat and the mind melters summoning their psi swords should be 1 melee action things not full melee round summoning times.

Also as time has gone on most things have gotten more damaging at least a bit and more durable but psychics have largely been static power wise. You do have cases like bursters RUE revamp where their OCC specialized psionics got a bit of a shot in the arm but the general list of powers still has a lot of dead wood.

I have heard a player say they don't want to be a bio manipulation bot for the group but that is really the most generally useful thing a master psionic can do in almost any combat situation.

[guardiandashi]

Psionics really could use some love. As mentioned a mind melter can cherry pick pretty much every "good" and by good I mean efficient to use and generally effective psi power by level 3. There are a handful of amazing psionics and a whole lot that are either insanely situational or just pointless and nobody would ever willingly spend ISP to use them.

With the changes to spell casting in the RUE a lot of powers like intuitive combat and the mind melters summoning their psi swords should be 1 melee action things not full melee round summoning times.

Also as time has gone on most things have gotten more damaging at least a bit and more durable but psychics have largely been static power wise. You do have cases like bursters RUE revamp where their OCC specialized psionics got a bit of a shot in the arm but the general list of powers still has a lot of dead wood.

I have heard a player say they don't want to be a bio manipulation bot for the group but that is really the most generally useful thing a master psionic can do in almost any combat situation.

what I am hearing if I am interpreting it right...
A number of people would like a new psionic "system"
possibly a "tree" of psionic powers, where you need x power to get y, and y to get z
possible a better ranking of powers such as tk minor, tk moderate, tk strong and tk super
where each power is better defined and explained what it can and cannot do (to reduce or eliminate some of the redundancy)
come up with some better useful powers so that certain "key" abilities are no longer only useful for x and make it so that you can build a meaningful char with different power sets and while they may have to use them different they can be similarly successful.

also make it so that more builds of similar char such as mind melter, can by changing power sets be quite different, such as a healing focused mind melter vs a pyro mind melter vs a tk focused one.

[Nightmask]

Ask Kevin.

The difference between a mind melter and a MPsi CK is that the melter mostly had to spend the time to discover and teach himself his powers. A CK's powers are taught him as part of the disciplines of the order, he's taught and guided into them at the same time he learns the other skills of the class.

Except someone who's a natural psychic like a Mind Melter has no reason to be spending massive amounts of time discovering or teaching himself his powers, they're natural to him and no more reason for him to have to go through such arduous effort to learn them than the effort we don't see many others who have psychic powers without penalties from it in regards to education. Why would one have to arduously learn how to resist poisons as a Mind Melter when the same identical psychic power requires no time spent having to learn or master it at all for a minor psychic? Especially when the master psychic is the one with the most natural ability and potential? It's ridiculous.

With the Cyber-Knight meanwhile you've got someone who even without natural potential manages to STILL learn powerful abilities like the Psi-Sword and qualify as a master psychic like the Mind Melter AND gets a wide range of skills as well. So you end up with Mind Melters contradictorily portrayed as someone with the most natural potential yet their natural potential has them bizarrely requiring far more effort to properly exploit that potential and use their abilities. It'd be like saying someone was a natural artist yet required intensive training and practice to be able to do better than a stick figure while the guy with no talent at art at all has no problems doing way better than the stick figure. You've the natural presented as just the opposite, it just doesn't make sense. Mind Melters are so bursting with potential they should have it easiest when learning (really more just discovering what abilities they have) to use their psychic powers and have far more range on how many skills are available as well.

Unlike, say, a mystic, who gets his power intuitively and "goes with the flow", a melter has a great measure of conscious choice about his future powers and must spend more time focussing on shaping his own potential.

The PLAYER has the conscious choice regarding what the Mind Melter gets, we haven't seen where it's so obvious that somehow the Mind Melter is picking and choosing (particularly since they generally aren't said to have any knowledge of the powers ahead of time so certainly can't be consciously trying to get powers when they don't even know what they all are), indeed it's as much intuitive for them as anyone else. In any case the idea that they have to put prodigious amounts of effort into developing their powers just isn't supported by what we actually know about psi-powers and how it doesn't really take anything away from one's learning ability to have them. Indeed it would be far more logical for a class like the Cyber-Knight to have a low number of skills given you're taking people without the potential and turning them into master psychics. Indeed they're a good example of why someone like a Mind Melter should have more skills; if the guys with no potential/natural ability can with intense training achieve master psychic abilities including a Psi-Sword then certainly the people with massive natural ability should have no problems developing them and having a large number of skills like the Cyber-Knight as well.

There is a false comparison here though.
The Mind Melter class (as written) is the normal mind melter....which is NOT in an intensive training program since youth...where as the Cyber Knight IS. Yes, it could, in theory learn a bunch of skills, if it was in an intensive training program. And yes, Psi-Bat is a good example of someplace that could offer that training. Which means that if the GM wants, they can create a different Class to represent it....but that class wont be the 'generic Mind Melter' then would it?

That doesn't change the fact that the 'normal' Mind Melter class has too few skills when it's demonstrably proven that psychic powers can be had by just about anyone without any sort of training at all let alone requiring such intensive study as to leave them so limited in skills and skill selection.

[eliakon]

Except someone who's a natural psychic like a Mind Melter has no reason to be spending massive amounts of time discovering or teaching himself his powers, they're natural to him and no more reason for him to have to go through such arduous effort to learn them than the effort we don't see many others who have psychic powers without penalties from it in regards to education. Why would one have to arduously learn how to resist poisons as a Mind Melter when the same identical psychic power requires no time spent having to learn or master it at all for a minor psychic? Especially when the master psychic is the one with the most natural ability and potential? It's ridiculous.

With the Cyber-Knight meanwhile you've got someone who even without natural potential manages to STILL learn powerful abilities like the Psi-Sword and qualify as a master psychic like the Mind Melter AND gets a wide range of skills as well. So you end up with Mind Melters contradictorily portrayed as someone with the most natural potential yet their natural potential has them bizarrely requiring far more effort to properly exploit that potential and use their abilities. It'd be like saying someone was a natural artist yet required intensive training and practice to be able to do better than a stick figure while the guy with no talent at art at all has no problems doing way better than the stick figure. You've the natural presented as just the opposite, it just doesn't make sense. Mind Melters are so bursting with potential they should have it easiest when learning (really more just discovering what abilities they have) to use their psychic powers and have far more range on how many skills are available as well.

Unlike, say, a mystic, who gets his power intuitively and "goes with the flow", a melter has a great measure of conscious choice about his future powers and must spend more time focussing on shaping his own potential.

The PLAYER has the conscious choice regarding what the Mind Melter gets, we haven't seen where it's so obvious that somehow the Mind Melter is picking and choosing (particularly since they generally aren't said to have any knowledge of the powers ahead of time so certainly can't be consciously trying to get powers when they don't even know what they all are), indeed it's as much intuitive for them as anyone else. In any case the idea that they have to put prodigious amounts of effort into developing their powers just isn't supported by what we actually know about psi-powers and how it doesn't really take anything away from one's learning ability to have them. Indeed it would be far more logical for a class like the Cyber-Knight to have a low number of skills given you're taking people without the potential and turning them into master psychics. Indeed they're a good example of why someone like a Mind Melter should have more skills; if the guys with no potential/natural ability can with intense training achieve master psychic abilities including a Psi-Sword then certainly the people with massive natural ability should have no problems developing them and having a large number of skills like the Cyber-Knight as well.

There is a false comparison here though.
The Mind Melter class (as written) is the normal mind melter....which is NOT in an intensive training program since youth...where as the Cyber Knight IS. Yes, it could, in theory learn a bunch of skills, if it was in an intensive training program. And yes, Psi-Bat is a good example of someplace that could offer that training. Which means that if the GM wants, they can create a different Class to represent it....but that class wont be the 'generic Mind Melter' then would it?

That doesn't change the fact that the 'normal' Mind Melter class has too few skills when it's demonstrably proven that psychic powers can be had by just about anyone without any sort of training at all let alone requiring such intensive study as to leave them so limited in skills and skill selection.

And the source of its skills would be......
And the source of the contention that large amounts of psychic skills are available to just about anyone without any sort of training is?
Because from where I am standing the only source of large amounts of psychic skills/powers are either to be a full master psychic _.C.C. or to be one of the few highly trained classes that can train you to have those powers.

[Nightmask]

The PLAYER has the conscious choice regarding what the Mind Melter gets, we haven't seen where it's so obvious that somehow the Mind Melter is picking and choosing (particularly since they generally aren't said to have any knowledge of the powers ahead of time so certainly can't be consciously trying to get powers when they don't even know what they all are), indeed it's as much intuitive for them as anyone else. In any case the idea that they have to put prodigious amounts of effort into developing their powers just isn't supported by what we actually know about psi-powers and how it doesn't really take anything away from one's learning ability to have them. Indeed it would be far more logical for a class like the Cyber-Knight to have a low number of skills given you're taking people without the potential and turning them into master psychics. Indeed they're a good example of why someone like a Mind Melter should have more skills; if the guys with no potential/natural ability can with intense training achieve master psychic abilities including a Psi-Sword then certainly the people with massive natural ability should have no problems developing them and having a large number of skills like the Cyber-Knight as well.

There is a false comparison here though.
The Mind Melter class (as written) is the normal mind melter....which is NOT in an intensive training program since youth...where as the Cyber Knight IS. Yes, it could, in theory learn a bunch of skills, if it was in an intensive training program. And yes, Psi-Bat is a good example of someplace that could offer that training. Which means that if the GM wants, they can create a different Class to represent it....but that class wont be the 'generic Mind Melter' then would it?

That doesn't change the fact that the 'normal' Mind Melter class has too few skills when it's demonstrably proven that psychic powers can be had by just about anyone without any sort of training at all let alone requiring such intensive study as to leave them so limited in skills and skill selection.

And the source of its skills would be......
And the source of the contention that large amounts of psychic skills are available to just about anyone without any sort of training is?
Because from where I am standing the only source of large amounts of psychic skills/powers are either to be a full master psychic _.C.C. or to be one of the few highly trained classes that can train you to have those powers.

What exactly do you think that table to check whether a PC has minor or major psychic powers is but proof that psychic powers are commonly available and require zero training whatsoever to have? Powers that can be from any of the 'lesser' psychic power groups mind you, which make up the majority of psychic powers. That by itself is quite clear that psychic powers require no training in general, although some OCC like the Cyber-Knight have training methods that can bring out and shape that latent potential even if it's not active even to a minor psychic level.

Also psychic powers do not equal psychic skills, psychic powers aren't skills they're powers. Some classes can draw out certain psychic powers as part of their training in a particular focus (like Cyber-Knights or Psi-Warriors) but psychic powers aren't skills that someone goes out and learns they're simply something someone has or become activated in some fashion.

As far as where a Mind Melters skills come from, same place everyone else's. There's nothing about being a Mind Melter that would actually justify having far fewer skills than others who have far more skills while also having abilities or powers that are explicitly a result of training/education in abundance that one would logically think should mean they'd have less skills not more.

[eliakon]

The PLAYER has the conscious choice regarding what the Mind Melter gets, we haven't seen where it's so obvious that somehow the Mind Melter is picking and choosing (particularly since they generally aren't said to have any knowledge of the powers ahead of time so certainly can't be consciously trying to get powers when they don't even know what they all are), indeed it's as much intuitive for them as anyone else. In any case the idea that they have to put prodigious amounts of effort into developing their powers just isn't supported by what we actually know about psi-powers and how it doesn't really take anything away from one's learning ability to have them. Indeed it would be far more logical for a class like the Cyber-Knight to have a low number of skills given you're taking people without the potential and turning them into master psychics. Indeed they're a good example of why someone like a Mind Melter should have more skills; if the guys with no potential/natural ability can with intense training achieve master psychic abilities including a Psi-Sword then certainly the people with massive natural ability should have no problems developing them and having a large number of skills like the Cyber-Knight as well.

There is a false comparison here though.
The Mind Melter class (as written) is the normal mind melter....which is NOT in an intensive training program since youth...where as the Cyber Knight IS. Yes, it could, in theory learn a bunch of skills, if it was in an intensive training program. And yes, Psi-Bat is a good example of someplace that could offer that training. Which means that if the GM wants, they can create a different Class to represent it....but that class wont be the 'generic Mind Melter' then would it?

That doesn't change the fact that the 'normal' Mind Melter class has too few skills when it's demonstrably proven that psychic powers can be had by just about anyone without any sort of training at all let alone requiring such intensive study as to leave them so limited in skills and skill selection.

And the source of its skills would be......
And the source of the contention that large amounts of psychic skills are available to just about anyone without any sort of training is?
Because from where I am standing the only source of large amounts of psychic skills/powers are either to be a full master psychic _.C.C. or to be one of the few highly trained classes that can train you to have those powers.

What exactly do you think that table to check whether a PC has minor or major psychic powers is but proof that psychic powers are commonly available and require zero training whatsoever to have? Powers that can be from any of the 'lesser' psychic power groups mind you, which make up the majority of psychic powers. That by itself is quite clear that psychic powers require no training in general, although some OCC like the Cyber-Knight have training methods that can bring out and shape that latent potential even if it's not active even to a minor psychic level.

Also psychic powers do not equal psychic skills, psychic powers aren't skills they're powers. Some classes can draw out certain psychic powers as part of their training in a particular focus (like Cyber-Knights or Psi-Warriors) but psychic powers aren't skills that someone goes out and learns they're simply something someone has or become activated in some fashion.

As far as where a Mind Melters skills come from, same place everyone else's. There's nothing about being a Mind Melter that would actually justify having far fewer skills than others who have far more skills while also having abilities or powers that are explicitly a result of training/education in abundance that one would logically think should mean they'd have less skills not more.

Ummm
Minor Power =/= Major Power =/= Master Power
You cant get Master Power on the table, you can only get that from a class....And since in the palladium universe you spend your PPE base when you learn skills and when you get psionics....yes there is a conflict there.

[Nightmask]

That doesn't change the fact that the 'normal' Mind Melter class has too few skills when it's demonstrably proven that psychic powers can be had by just about anyone without any sort of training at all let alone requiring such intensive study as to leave them so limited in skills and skill selection.

And the source of its skills would be......
And the source of the contention that large amounts of psychic skills are available to just about anyone without any sort of training is?
Because from where I am standing the only source of large amounts of psychic skills/powers are either to be a full master psychic _.C.C. or to be one of the few highly trained classes that can train you to have those powers.

What exactly do you think that table to check whether a PC has minor or major psychic powers is but proof that psychic powers are commonly available and require zero training whatsoever to have? Powers that can be from any of the 'lesser' psychic power groups mind you, which make up the majority of psychic powers. That by itself is quite clear that psychic powers require no training in general, although some OCC like the Cyber-Knight have training methods that can bring out and shape that latent potential even if it's not active even to a minor psychic level.

Also psychic powers do not equal psychic skills, psychic powers aren't skills they're powers. Some classes can draw out certain psychic powers as part of their training in a particular focus (like Cyber-Knights or Psi-Warriors) but psychic powers aren't skills that someone goes out and learns they're simply something someone has or become activated in some fashion.

As far as where a Mind Melters skills come from, same place everyone else's. There's nothing about being a Mind Melter that would actually justify having far fewer skills than others who have far more skills while also having abilities or powers that are explicitly a result of training/education in abundance that one would logically think should mean they'd have less skills not more.

Ummm
Minor Power =/= Major Power =/= Master Power
You cant get Master Power on the table, you can only get that from a class....And since in the palladium universe you spend your PPE base when you learn skills and when you get psionics....yes there is a conflict there.

Except you don't, you don't spend any PPE in either learning skills or gaining psionics. While a few psychic classes have fewer than the standard 2d6 roll (at 2d4) others are the same or even higher dice to roll for PPE. What skills they have have zero indicator that you're spending PPE in acquiring skills for anyone, psychic or non. Given having neither minor nor major psychic status impact your PPE at all they really aren't affecting your PPE with Master psychic status either.

Much of that really is just cut-and-paste left over from Beyond The Supernatural, where it was set up to explicitly spend PPE towards psychic powers. What we actually see in Rifts there really isn't any such spending going on.

[Killer Cyborg]

you don't spend any PPE in either learning skills or gaining psionics. While a few psychic classes have fewer than the standard 2d6 roll (at 2d4) others are the same or even higher dice to roll for PPE. What skills they have have zero indicator that you're spending PPE in acquiring skills for anyone, psychic or non. Given having neither minor nor major psychic status impact your PPE at all they really aren't affecting your PPE with Master psychic status either.

Much of that really is just cut-and-paste left over from Beyond The Supernatural, where it was set up to explicitly spend PPE towards psychic powers. What we actually see in Rifts there really isn't any such spending going on.

It's not just cut-and-paste. It's how the Palladium system works overall.
It's not as overt as it was back in BtS days, but it's still there, part of Palladium's philosophy on how PPE (and and the gameworld's reality) works.

You can insist over and over that it's NOT still there, but that leaves you unable to answer the basic question that seems to be the source of your frustration:
Why don't Mind Melters have more skills?

I don't see the point in assuming an unfounded position that leaves you unable to answer the very question that you've set out to answer.

[Tor]

I think the main problem is that while the PPE for skills thing is a fabulous idea, it isn't always properly implemented, since we have things like spellcasters with lots of skills AND lotsa PPE, and PPE is not paid to learn new skills at higher levels, and changing OCCs gives a huge amount of skills but will only serve to enhance your PPE with rare exceptions like being a Swordbearer where it burns it off.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think the main problem is that while the PPE for skills thing is a fabulous idea, it isn't always properly implemented, since we have things like spellcasters with lots of skills AND lotsa PPE, and PPE is not paid to learn new skills at higher levels, and changing OCCs gives a huge amount of skills but will only serve to enhance your PPE with rare exceptions like being a Swordbearer where it burns it off.

Buggy system has bugs.

[kaid]

I think the one thing that keeps psionics in its current state is because so many people can get psionics from all but non super levels all the non super psionics are kept really really weak and situational to prevent abuse which hinders actual psychics power pretty badly.

[Shark_Force]

that isn't really the problem. psionics is not weak, it's just repetitive.

the ability to freeze robots is huge. the ability to paralyze a living being for several minutes is equally impressive. super telekinesis provides decent levels of damage at a reasonable cost (provided you don't mind carrying around a few vibro-blades everywhere you go), at a decent range and with built-in bonuses to strike (heck, if you have access to the right books, you can get extremely high damage capabilities; for example, iirc there's a vibro-halberd or something like that in phase world that does 1d6x10, and with super TK you can wield one of those per level). likewise the ability to possess a living being or a machine (or operate a machine remotely) is incredible, and post-hypnotic suggestion is yet another very powerful ability, and of course mind block auto-defense so that you can use psionics while being completely protected from mental psionic attacks.

even amongst the minor abilities, there are some very powerful options. everyone knows sixth sense, of course, and clairvoyance, but even some of the other options are quite strong.

the main thing I dislike about psionics is not that it's too weak. it's simply that basically every single mind melter you meet has basically no surprises available from their powers. oh, they can surprise you with equipment, that's for sure. but basically, you know what they can do to you. there's no mystery. and every player character is basically stuck using the same few tricks over and over, with no real chance for progression (beyond getting better range, or adding another vibro-blade to their arsenal). and I don't just mean that they never learn new tricks (though once they get to level 3, that's also largely true), I mean that if you had 2 mind melter PCs, in short order they would be so close to identical in terms of what their powers can do they'd be almost indistinguishable in that regard.

if I was to change psionics, that's what I would target; I would want to create some difficult choices, so that you have to actually decide what you want to be capable of rather than just pick the standard selection and carry on. there would still be powerful options, you just wouldn't be able to have all of them (or at the very least, not unless you were very high level).

mind you, to whoever said that it looks like that's what people are looking for... to be fair, I haven't seen anyone else say that's what they're looking for. right now, that's what I would be excited about, but I haven't seen anyone else voice an opinion one way or the other

[Killer Cyborg]

mind you, to whoever said that it looks like that's what people are looking for... to be fair, I haven't seen anyone else say that's what they're looking for. right now, that's what I would be excited about, but I haven't seen anyone else voice an opinion one way or the other

Somebody should start a thread and ask.

[RiftJunkie]

Ok, I get that RUE now says that PPE gets "spent" on skills now. Wasn't it originally presented as "we loose PPE as we mature into adulthood if we do not develop the conviction to use magic"? Kids have higher PPE and adults have lower. Psychic classes said that they "burned" up their PPE in developing their psionics. I always took this to mean that they didn't hold a true conviction to PPE/Magic because they had ISP/Psionics. I see it as if you don't use it, you loose it. Otherwise, why do Mages keep huge PPE bases and have a bunch of skills if they would have to "burn" PPE to get those skills in the first place?

[Killer Cyborg]

Ok, I get that RUE now says that PPE gets "spent" on skills now. Wasn't it originally presented as "we loose PPE as we mature into adulthood if we do not develop the conviction to use magic"? Kids have higher PPE and adults have lower. Psychic classes said that they "burned" up their PPE in developing their psionics. I always took this to mean that they didn't hold a true conviction to PPE/Magic because they had ISP/Psionics. I see it as if you don't use it, you loose it. Otherwise, why do Mages keep huge PPE bases and have a bunch of skills if they would have to "burn" PPE to get those skills in the first place?

Nah.
Since BtS, the reason why kids had a higher amount of PPE was specifically because children have more potential. As the grow, they spend that potential, turning it into actual abilities.
With most people, the Potential Psychic Energy is spent on mundane things such as skills. With psychics, it's spent on other things.

[RiftJunkie]

Ok, I get that RUE now says that PPE gets "spent" on skills now. Wasn't it originally presented as "we loose PPE as we mature into adulthood if we do not develop the conviction to use magic"? Kids have higher PPE and adults have lower. Psychic classes said that they "burned" up their PPE in developing their psionics. I always took this to mean that they didn't hold a true conviction to PPE/Magic because they had ISP/Psionics. I see it as if you don't use it, you loose it. Otherwise, why do Mages keep huge PPE bases and have a bunch of skills if they would have to "burn" PPE to get those skills in the first place?

Nah.
Since BtS, the reason why kids had a higher amount of PPE was specifically because children have more potential. As the grow, they spend that potential, turning it into actual abilities.
With most people, the Potential Psychic Energy is spent on mundane things such as skills. With psychics, it's spent on other things.

I can see your point. I'd still like to see Psychics have a few more skills though.

[Shark_Force]

iirc, there's actually a class in BtS (and also semi-copied into nightbane i think) that basically gets to spend their PPE to gain various skill-based abilities or improved attributes that sort of shows exactly this type of process.

[Nightmask]

iirc, there's actually a class in BtS (and also semi-copied into nightbane i think) that basically gets to spend their PPE to gain various skill-based abilities or improved attributes that sort of shows exactly this type of process.

That's one specific class, you really can't use it as a general example that applies to everyone.

[eliakon]

iirc, there's actually a class in BtS (and also semi-copied into nightbane i think) that basically gets to spend their PPE to gain various skill-based abilities or improved attributes that sort of shows exactly this type of process.

That's one specific class, you really can't use it as a general example that applies to everyone.

Except that over and over again that is how its described. This IS how it works in Palladium Land. But that's okay because this isn't the Real World, and so the laws of nature can be different (good thing too because there are lots of other deviations from the 'real world rules')

[Secondhand Smoke]

Big Kev.

If you need any help for writing up The Big Bad Book of Psionics let me know

[HWalsh]

I'd be down for more psionics.

[Nightmask]

iirc, there's actually a class in BtS (and also semi-copied into nightbane i think) that basically gets to spend their PPE to gain various skill-based abilities or improved attributes that sort of shows exactly this type of process.

That's one specific class, you really can't use it as a general example that applies to everyone.

Except that over and over again that is how its described. This IS how it works in Palladium Land. But that's okay because this isn't the Real World, and so the laws of nature can be different (good thing too because there are lots of other deviations from the 'real world rules')

What we see is a cut-and-paste bit of fluff that's not validated by the actual stats, psi-powers aren't something that require training to have or use and you aren't spending PPE to acquire them or your skills.

[Alrik Vas]

So then why are psionics even a thing? Doesn't that mean mind melters shouldn't exist and you should just pick psionics no matter your OCC? Just use their power progression for any class you choose. Might as well in that case.

[Nightmask]

So then why are psionics even a thing? Doesn't that mean mind melters shouldn't exist and you should just pick psionics no matter your OCC? Just use their power progression for any class you choose. Might as well in that case.

No, since you have people with exceptional aptitudes that exist in game terms as OCC, not all psychic aptitudes are the same just as all mental or physical aptitudes are the same. Some are Mind Melters others are Psi-Techs others are Gizmoteers and yet others are Bursters and so on. Some psychic classes are the result of taking people who don't have such aptitudes and with intense training bringing out specific potentials (and the CS has some brutal and inhumane methods of bringing out certain class potentials they find useful).

[Alrik Vas]

So then why are psionics even a thing? Doesn't that mean mind melters shouldn't exist and you should just pick psionics no matter your OCC? Just use their power progression for any class you choose. Might as well in that case.

No, since you have people with exceptional aptitudes that exist in game terms as OCC, not all psychic aptitudes are the same just as all mental or physical aptitudes are the same. Some are Mind Melters others are Psi-Techs others are Gizmoteers and yet others are Bursters and so on. Some psychic classes are the result of taking people who don't have such aptitudes and with intense training bringing out specific potentials (and the CS has some brutal and inhumane methods of bringing out certain class potentials they find useful).

And this translates to mechanics how?

[Killer Cyborg]

iirc, there's actually a class in BtS (and also semi-copied into nightbane i think) that basically gets to spend their PPE to gain various skill-based abilities or improved attributes that sort of shows exactly this type of process.

That's one specific class, you really can't use it as a general example that applies to everyone.

Except that over and over again that is how its described. This IS how it works in Palladium Land. But that's okay because this isn't the Real World, and so the laws of nature can be different (good thing too because there are lots of other deviations from the 'real world rules')

What we see is a cut-and-paste bit of fluff that's not validated by the actual stats, psi-powers aren't something that require training to have or use and you aren't spending PPE to acquire them or your skills.

You're complaining about the actual stats that validate the text that you claim is "cut-and-paste" and "fluff."

[Nightmask]

So then why are psionics even a thing? Doesn't that mean mind melters shouldn't exist and you should just pick psionics no matter your OCC? Just use their power progression for any class you choose. Might as well in that case.

No, since you have people with exceptional aptitudes that exist in game terms as OCC, not all psychic aptitudes are the same just as all mental or physical aptitudes are the same. Some are Mind Melters others are Psi-Techs others are Gizmoteers and yet others are Bursters and so on. Some psychic classes are the result of taking people who don't have such aptitudes and with intense training bringing out specific potentials (and the CS has some brutal and inhumane methods of bringing out certain class potentials they find useful).

And this translates to mechanics how?

Not everything is a mechanic, and certainly we don't have a mechanic that says 'expend X amount of PPE to justify Y amount of skills or Z amount of psi-powers', other than a couple exception classes (if they weren't exceptions we'd have a general rule for such instead). What we have is some fluff that says something about PPE being expended when the actual mechanics don't agree with that, with psychic powers being shown to be natural abilities requiring no expenses and even can be activated or increased by things like cybernetic implants or genetic engineering. Clearly no PPE is being 'spent' in such cases, nor was PPE said to be 'spent' if you diced up minor or major psychic powers on the table. The body of evidence simply doesn't support that claim. Mystics even directly contradict that, having a number of psi-powers and significant amounts of PPE and spell-casting ability, which they clearly couldn't do both if having psi-powers cost you PPE.

[eliakon]

So then why are psionics even a thing? Doesn't that mean mind melters shouldn't exist and you should just pick psionics no matter your OCC? Just use their power progression for any class you choose. Might as well in that case.

No, since you have people with exceptional aptitudes that exist in game terms as OCC, not all psychic aptitudes are the same just as all mental or physical aptitudes are the same. Some are Mind Melters others are Psi-Techs others are Gizmoteers and yet others are Bursters and so on. Some psychic classes are the result of taking people who don't have such aptitudes and with intense training bringing out specific potentials (and the CS has some brutal and inhumane methods of bringing out certain class potentials they find useful).

And this translates to mechanics how?

Not everything is a mechanic, and certainly we don't have a mechanic that says 'expend X amount of PPE to justify Y amount of skills or Z amount of psi-powers', other than a couple exception classes (if they weren't exceptions we'd have a general rule for such instead). What we have is some fluff that says something about PPE being expended when the actual mechanics don't agree with that, with psychic powers being shown to be natural abilities requiring no expenses and even can be activated or increased by things like cybernetic implants or genetic engineering. Clearly no PPE is being 'spent' in such cases, nor was PPE said to be 'spent' if you diced up minor or major psychic powers on the table. The body of evidence simply doesn't support that claim. Mystics even directly contradict that, having a number of psi-powers and significant amounts of PPE and spell-casting ability, which they clearly couldn't do both if having psi-powers cost you PPE.

The fact that you don't like how something is implemented doesn't mean its not there.
PPE is 'spent' to 'aquire' aptitudes...however with training (like a magic class) it can be increased, and in some cases the increase is natural (Mystics) but normal people go down in PPE as they age because they lose their POTENTIAL, they burn off POTENTIAL into actualization. That's how it works. Its no different then how SDC is how 'tough you are' even though you can get it you are from an implant its still your 'toughness' and note that the implant psionics are artificial...take away the implant and you lose the psi so are not gaining anything from the implant. *Shrugs* You can interpret things how you like I guess.....but the RAW as written is that people burn of their PPE to gain skills and psionics, unless they train that PPE.

[Nightmask]

So then why are psionics even a thing? Doesn't that mean mind melters shouldn't exist and you should just pick psionics no matter your OCC? Just use their power progression for any class you choose. Might as well in that case.

No, since you have people with exceptional aptitudes that exist in game terms as OCC, not all psychic aptitudes are the same just as all mental or physical aptitudes are the same. Some are Mind Melters others are Psi-Techs others are Gizmoteers and yet others are Bursters and so on. Some psychic classes are the result of taking people who don't have such aptitudes and with intense training bringing out specific potentials (and the CS has some brutal and inhumane methods of bringing out certain class potentials they find useful).

And this translates to mechanics how?

Not everything is a mechanic, and certainly we don't have a mechanic that says 'expend X amount of PPE to justify Y amount of skills or Z amount of psi-powers', other than a couple exception classes (if they weren't exceptions we'd have a general rule for such instead). What we have is some fluff that says something about PPE being expended when the actual mechanics don't agree with that, with psychic powers being shown to be natural abilities requiring no expenses and even can be activated or increased by things like cybernetic implants or genetic engineering. Clearly no PPE is being 'spent' in such cases, nor was PPE said to be 'spent' if you diced up minor or major psychic powers on the table. The body of evidence simply doesn't support that claim. Mystics even directly contradict that, having a number of psi-powers and significant amounts of PPE and spell-casting ability, which they clearly couldn't do both if having psi-powers cost you PPE.

The fact that you don't like how something is implemented doesn't mean its not there.
PPE is 'spent' to 'aquire' aptitudes...however with training (like a magic class) it can be increased, and in some cases the increase is natural (Mystics) but normal people go down in PPE as they age because they lose their POTENTIAL, they burn off POTENTIAL into actualization. That's how it works. Its no different then how SDC is how 'tough you are' even though you can get it you are from an implant its still your 'toughness' and note that the implant psionics are artificial...take away the implant and you lose the psi so are not gaining anything from the implant. *Shrugs* You can interpret things how you like I guess.....but the RAW as written is that people burn of their PPE to gain skills and psionics, unless they train that PPE.

No, the fact that it's not there is why it's not there, and no it's not in the rules that people burn off PPE to gain skills or psionics there's some fluff that the actual rules make clear isn't so. The Rogue Scientist without psionics is going to have the same PPE as the Rogue Scientist with Major Psionics, because PPE isn't relevant to their possession of skills or psychic abilities. The CS Grunt without psionics has the same PPE as the one with Minor Psionics, and so on. Nobody's 'spending' PPE on anything, the psychic powers are just there if they have them and have nothing to do with spending PPE on them or training which.

Really, you can try and justify fluff text that's contradicted by all the other material as much as you want but what it comes down to is trying to validate something that's not valid. Nowhere (other than a few exception classes) do you see it where anyone spends PPE on skills or psionics, there is no general rule for that because it doesn't happen. You don't spend PPE to learn skills (if you did then there'd be a rule requiring you do so as you leveled and gained new skills, but there isn't) and you don't spend PPE to gain psionic abilities (again, no rule says you do and indeed the rule covering checking for psychic powers carries no such rule not even the older edition version of it). Those would be the actual rules.

[eliakon]

No, since you have people with exceptional aptitudes that exist in game terms as OCC, not all psychic aptitudes are the same just as all mental or physical aptitudes are the same. Some are Mind Melters others are Psi-Techs others are Gizmoteers and yet others are Bursters and so on. Some psychic classes are the result of taking people who don't have such aptitudes and with intense training bringing out specific potentials (and the CS has some brutal and inhumane methods of bringing out certain class potentials they find useful).

And this translates to mechanics how?

Not everything is a mechanic, and certainly we don't have a mechanic that says 'expend X amount of PPE to justify Y amount of skills or Z amount of psi-powers', other than a couple exception classes (if they weren't exceptions we'd have a general rule for such instead). What we have is some fluff that says something about PPE being expended when the actual mechanics don't agree with that, with psychic powers being shown to be natural abilities requiring no expenses and even can be activated or increased by things like cybernetic implants or genetic engineering. Clearly no PPE is being 'spent' in such cases, nor was PPE said to be 'spent' if you diced up minor or major psychic powers on the table. The body of evidence simply doesn't support that claim. Mystics even directly contradict that, having a number of psi-powers and significant amounts of PPE and spell-casting ability, which they clearly couldn't do both if having psi-powers cost you PPE.

The fact that you don't like how something is implemented doesn't mean its not there.
PPE is 'spent' to 'aquire' aptitudes...however with training (like a magic class) it can be increased, and in some cases the increase is natural (Mystics) but normal people go down in PPE as they age because they lose their POTENTIAL, they burn off POTENTIAL into actualization. That's how it works. Its no different then how SDC is how 'tough you are' even though you can get it you are from an implant its still your 'toughness' and note that the implant psionics are artificial...take away the implant and you lose the psi so are not gaining anything from the implant. *Shrugs* You can interpret things how you like I guess.....but the RAW as written is that people burn of their PPE to gain skills and psionics, unless they train that PPE.

No, the fact that it's not there is why it's not there, and no it's not in the rules that people burn off PPE to gain skills or psionics there's some fluff that the actual rules make clear isn't so. The Rogue Scientist without psionics is going to have the same PPE as the Rogue Scientist with Major Psionics, because PPE isn't relevant to their possession of skills or psychic abilities. The CS Grunt without psionics has the same PPE as the one with Minor Psionics, and so on. Nobody's 'spending' PPE on anything, the psychic powers are just there if they have them and have nothing to do with spending PPE on them or training which.

Really, you can try and justify fluff text that's contradicted by all the other material as much as you want but what it comes down to is trying to validate something that's not valid. Nowhere (other than a few exception classes) do you see it where anyone spends PPE on skills or psionics, there is no general rule for that because it doesn't happen. You don't spend PPE to learn skills (if you did then there'd be a rule requiring you do so as you leveled and gained new skills, but there isn't) and you don't spend PPE to gain psionic abilities (again, no rule says you do and indeed the rule covering checking for psychic powers carries no such rule not even the older edition version of it). Those would be the actual rules.

Its not 'fluff' text though. RUE page 185 Individual P.P.E. Reserve Every person has some amount of Potential Psychic Energy (P.P.E.). Most humans and D-Be-sse have very little, because they have unwittingly spent their P.P.E. on occupational skills, hobbies and other interests.
So right there, in the rules for P.P.E., we find out that normal people spend their PPE on skills.
RUE pg 141 Burster P.P.E. Base: Most of he Burster's P.P.E. has been expended in the development of psychic abilities.
RUE pg. 147, again Dog Boy again has expend its PPE in the development of psychic abilities
RUE pg. 151 Mind Melter AGAIN has expended its PPE in the development of psychic abilities

And that's just in the RUE book. The first book I opened (And the core one) Doesn't look much like fluff to me.

[Nightmask]

Not everything is a mechanic, and certainly we don't have a mechanic that says 'expend X amount of PPE to justify Y amount of skills or Z amount of psi-powers', other than a couple exception classes (if they weren't exceptions we'd have a general rule for such instead). What we have is some fluff that says something about PPE being expended when the actual mechanics don't agree with that, with psychic powers being shown to be natural abilities requiring no expenses and even can be activated or increased by things like cybernetic implants or genetic engineering. Clearly no PPE is being 'spent' in such cases, nor was PPE said to be 'spent' if you diced up minor or major psychic powers on the table. The body of evidence simply doesn't support that claim. Mystics even directly contradict that, having a number of psi-powers and significant amounts of PPE and spell-casting ability, which they clearly couldn't do both if having psi-powers cost you PPE.

The fact that you don't like how something is implemented doesn't mean its not there.
PPE is 'spent' to 'aquire' aptitudes...however with training (like a magic class) it can be increased, and in some cases the increase is natural (Mystics) but normal people go down in PPE as they age because they lose their POTENTIAL, they burn off POTENTIAL into actualization. That's how it works. Its no different then how SDC is how 'tough you are' even though you can get it you are from an implant its still your 'toughness' and note that the implant psionics are artificial...take away the implant and you lose the psi so are not gaining anything from the implant. *Shrugs* You can interpret things how you like I guess.....but the RAW as written is that people burn of their PPE to gain skills and psionics, unless they train that PPE.

No, the fact that it's not there is why it's not there, and no it's not in the rules that people burn off PPE to gain skills or psionics there's some fluff that the actual rules make clear isn't so. The Rogue Scientist without psionics is going to have the same PPE as the Rogue Scientist with Major Psionics, because PPE isn't relevant to their possession of skills or psychic abilities. The CS Grunt without psionics has the same PPE as the one with Minor Psionics, and so on. Nobody's 'spending' PPE on anything, the psychic powers are just there if they have them and have nothing to do with spending PPE on them or training which.

Really, you can try and justify fluff text that's contradicted by all the other material as much as you want but what it comes down to is trying to validate something that's not valid. Nowhere (other than a few exception classes) do you see it where anyone spends PPE on skills or psionics, there is no general rule for that because it doesn't happen. You don't spend PPE to learn skills (if you did then there'd be a rule requiring you do so as you leveled and gained new skills, but there isn't) and you don't spend PPE to gain psionic abilities (again, no rule says you do and indeed the rule covering checking for psychic powers carries no such rule not even the older edition version of it). Those would be the actual rules.

Its not 'fluff' text though. RUE page 185 Individual P.P.E. Reserve Every person has some amount of Potential Psychic Energy (P.P.E.). Most humans and D-Be-sse have very little, because they have unwittingly spent their P.P.E. on occupational skills, hobbies and other interests.
So right there, in the rules for P.P.E., we find out that normal people spend their PPE on skills.
RUE pg 141 Burster P.P.E. Base: Most of he Burster's P.P.E. has been expended in the development of psychic abilities.
RUE pg. 147, again Dog Boy again has expend its PPE in the development of psychic abilities
RUE pg. 151 Mind Melter AGAIN has expended its PPE in the development of psychic abilities

And that's just in the RUE book. The first book I opened (And the core one) Doesn't look much like fluff to me.

Yes fluff. It's fluff because it's not supported by the actual rules. If it were a rule then there'd actually be, you know, RULES covering such expenditures since nowhere does it say someone spends X PPE for Y skills or Z psionic powers as I've already pointed out. You don't spend any PPE as you level up and gain new skills which would be necessary if you actually spent PPE on gaining skills. You don't spend any PPE to gain psionics from the random table as you would if as you contend there was an actual rule requiring PPE be spent on gaining psionics.

So again, no all that fluff text that you point to that's been cut-and-pasted all over the place is just that fluff the rules as we actually see them are quite clear that PPE is not spent on skills or psionics. Many of those psychic classes if not most even use the same number and type of dice as those without any psychic powers at all or even more, which again contradicts the idea that they spent any PPE on anything when they've as much PPE as anyone else in spite of having those psychic powers. If you want to treat fluff like it isn't that's up to you, but I'm looking at the actual stuff we actually see rather than pretending all of that doesn't exist because it disproves the fluff.

[Alrik Vas]

So then why are psionics even a thing? Doesn't that mean mind melters shouldn't exist and you should just pick psionics no matter your OCC? Just use their power progression for any class you choose. Might as well in that case.

No, since you have people with exceptional aptitudes that exist in game terms as OCC, not all psychic aptitudes are the same just as all mental or physical aptitudes are the same. Some are Mind Melters others are Psi-Techs others are Gizmoteers and yet others are Bursters and so on. Some psychic classes are the result of taking people who don't have such aptitudes and with intense training bringing out specific potentials (and the CS has some brutal and inhumane methods of bringing out certain class potentials they find useful).

And this translates to mechanics how?

Not everything is a mechanic, and certainly we don't have a mechanic that says 'expend X amount of PPE to justify Y amount of skills or Z amount of psi-powers', other than a couple exception classes (if they weren't exceptions we'd have a general rule for such instead). What we have is some fluff that says something about PPE being expended when the actual mechanics don't agree with that, with psychic powers being shown to be natural abilities requiring no expenses and even can be activated or increased by things like cybernetic implants or genetic engineering. Clearly no PPE is being 'spent' in such cases, nor was PPE said to be 'spent' if you diced up minor or major psychic powers on the table. The body of evidence simply doesn't support that claim. Mystics even directly contradict that, having a number of psi-powers and significant amounts of PPE and spell-casting ability, which they clearly couldn't do both if having psi-powers cost you PPE.

Okay, I get what you are saying. ...yet you didn't really answer my question. You said, "Not everything is a mechanic", but that's a statement of it's own. I asked you how it translates to mechanics, and you've shown nothing to support it. All you've talked about was your earlier statements which were answers to other people, not me. Please answer the person you are quoting.

[guardiandashi]

Not everything is a mechanic, and certainly we don't have a mechanic that says 'expend X amount of PPE to justify Y amount of skills or Z amount of psi-powers', other than a couple exception classes (if they weren't exceptions we'd have a general rule for such instead). What we have is some fluff that says something about PPE being expended when the actual mechanics don't agree with that, with psychic powers being shown to be natural abilities requiring no expenses and even can be activated or increased by things like cybernetic implants or genetic engineering. Clearly no PPE is being 'spent' in such cases, nor was PPE said to be 'spent' if you diced up minor or major psychic powers on the table. The body of evidence simply doesn't support that claim. Mystics even directly contradict that, having a number of psi-powers and significant amounts of PPE and spell-casting ability, which they clearly couldn't do both if having psi-powers cost you PPE.

The fact that you don't like how something is implemented doesn't mean its not there.
PPE is 'spent' to 'aquire' aptitudes...however with training (like a magic class) it can be increased, and in some cases the increase is natural (Mystics) but normal people go down in PPE as they age because they lose their POTENTIAL, they burn off POTENTIAL into actualization. That's how it works. Its no different then how SDC is how 'tough you are' even though you can get it you are from an implant its still your 'toughness' and note that the implant psionics are artificial...take away the implant and you lose the psi so are not gaining anything from the implant. *Shrugs* You can interpret things how you like I guess.....but the RAW as written is that people burn of their PPE to gain skills and psionics, unless they train that PPE.

No, the fact that it's not there is why it's not there, and no it's not in the rules that people burn off PPE to gain skills or psionics there's some fluff that the actual rules make clear isn't so. The Rogue Scientist without psionics is going to have the same PPE as the Rogue Scientist with Major Psionics, because PPE isn't relevant to their possession of skills or psychic abilities. The CS Grunt without psionics has the same PPE as the one with Minor Psionics, and so on. Nobody's 'spending' PPE on anything, the psychic powers are just there if they have them and have nothing to do with spending PPE on them or training which.

Really, you can try and justify fluff text that's contradicted by all the other material as much as you want but what it comes down to is trying to validate something that's not valid. Nowhere (other than a few exception classes) do you see it where anyone spends PPE on skills or psionics, there is no general rule for that because it doesn't happen. You don't spend PPE to learn skills (if you did then there'd be a rule requiring you do so as you leveled and gained new skills, but there isn't) and you don't spend PPE to gain psionic abilities (again, no rule says you do and indeed the rule covering checking for psychic powers carries no such rule not even the older edition version of it). Those would be the actual rules.

Its not 'fluff' text though. RUE page 185 Individual P.P.E. Reserve Every person has some amount of Potential Psychic Energy (P.P.E.). Most humans and D-Be-sse have very little, because they have unwittingly spent their P.P.E. on occupational skills, hobbies and other interests.
So right there, in the rules for P.P.E., we find out that normal people spend their PPE on skills.
RUE pg 141 Burster P.P.E. Base: Most of he Burster's P.P.E. has been expended in the development of psychic abilities.
RUE pg. 147, again Dog Boy again has expend its PPE in the development of psychic abilities
RUE pg. 151 Mind Melter AGAIN has expended its PPE in the development of psychic abilities

And that's just in the RUE book. The first book I opened (And the core one) Doesn't look much like fluff to me.

Yes fluff. It's fluff because it's not supported by the actual rules. If it were a rule then there'd actually be, you know, RULES covering such expenditures since nowhere does it say someone spends X PPE for Y skills or Z psionic powers as I've already pointed out. You don't spend any PPE as you level up and gain new skills which would be necessary if you actually spent PPE on gaining skills. You don't spend any PPE to gain psionics from the random table as you would if as you contend there was an actual rule requiring PPE be spent on gaining psionics.

So again, no all that fluff text that you point to that's been cut-and-pasted all over the place is just that fluff the rules as we actually see them are quite clear that PPE is not spent on skills or psionics. Many of those psychic classes if not most even use the same number and type of dice as those without any psychic powers at all or even more, which again contradicts the idea that they spent any PPE on anything when they've as much PPE as anyone else in spite of having those psychic powers. If you want to treat fluff like it isn't that's up to you, but I'm looking at the actual stuff we actually see rather than pretending all of that doesn't exist because it disproves the fluff.

this is a complex issue in some ways. the spending of ppe for skills, psionics, etc is cited as being a rule, but because there are no rules saying HOW it is done, it can be relegated to "fluff" status because the mechanism to use those rules has not been provided.

[Killer Cyborg]

Not everything is a mechanic, and certainly we don't have a mechanic that says 'expend X amount of PPE to justify Y amount of skills or Z amount of psi-powers', other than a couple exception classes (if they weren't exceptions we'd have a general rule for such instead). What we have is some fluff that says something about PPE being expended when the actual mechanics don't agree with that, with psychic powers being shown to be natural abilities requiring no expenses and even can be activated or increased by things like cybernetic implants or genetic engineering. Clearly no PPE is being 'spent' in such cases, nor was PPE said to be 'spent' if you diced up minor or major psychic powers on the table. The body of evidence simply doesn't support that claim. Mystics even directly contradict that, having a number of psi-powers and significant amounts of PPE and spell-casting ability, which they clearly couldn't do both if having psi-powers cost you PPE.

The fact that you don't like how something is implemented doesn't mean its not there.
PPE is 'spent' to 'aquire' aptitudes...however with training (like a magic class) it can be increased, and in some cases the increase is natural (Mystics) but normal people go down in PPE as they age because they lose their POTENTIAL, they burn off POTENTIAL into actualization. That's how it works. Its no different then how SDC is how 'tough you are' even though you can get it you are from an implant its still your 'toughness' and note that the implant psionics are artificial...take away the implant and you lose the psi so are not gaining anything from the implant. *Shrugs* You can interpret things how you like I guess.....but the RAW as written is that people burn of their PPE to gain skills and psionics, unless they train that PPE.

No, the fact that it's not there is why it's not there, and no it's not in the rules that people burn off PPE to gain skills or psionics there's some fluff that the actual rules make clear isn't so. The Rogue Scientist without psionics is going to have the same PPE as the Rogue Scientist with Major Psionics, because PPE isn't relevant to their possession of skills or psychic abilities. The CS Grunt without psionics has the same PPE as the one with Minor Psionics, and so on. Nobody's 'spending' PPE on anything, the psychic powers are just there if they have them and have nothing to do with spending PPE on them or training which.

Really, you can try and justify fluff text that's contradicted by all the other material as much as you want but what it comes down to is trying to validate something that's not valid. Nowhere (other than a few exception classes) do you see it where anyone spends PPE on skills or psionics, there is no general rule for that because it doesn't happen. You don't spend PPE to learn skills (if you did then there'd be a rule requiring you do so as you leveled and gained new skills, but there isn't) and you don't spend PPE to gain psionic abilities (again, no rule says you do and indeed the rule covering checking for psychic powers carries no such rule not even the older edition version of it). Those would be the actual rules.

Its not 'fluff' text though. RUE page 185 Individual P.P.E. Reserve Every person has some amount of Potential Psychic Energy (P.P.E.). Most humans and D-Be-sse have very little, because they have unwittingly spent their P.P.E. on occupational skills, hobbies and other interests.
So right there, in the rules for P.P.E., we find out that normal people spend their PPE on skills.
RUE pg 141 Burster P.P.E. Base: Most of he Burster's P.P.E. has been expended in the development of psychic abilities.
RUE pg. 147, again Dog Boy again has expend its PPE in the development of psychic abilities
RUE pg. 151 Mind Melter AGAIN has expended its PPE in the development of psychic abilities

And that's just in the RUE book. The first book I opened (And the core one) Doesn't look much like fluff to me.

Yes fluff. It's fluff because it's not supported by the actual rules.

You don't consider the rules for rolling PPE to be "rules"...?