Coalition States Psi-Battalion

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Re: Coalition States Psi-Battalion

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Also, I think it's absurd to dismiss fluff text as unimportant.
The vast majority of the game is fluff text, and without it, there wouldn't be a game.
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Re: Coalition States Psi-Battalion

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Killer Cyborg wrote:Also, I think it's absurd to dismiss fluff text as unimportant.
The vast majority of the game is fluff text, and without it, there wouldn't be a game.

Fluff should only be dismissed if it contradicts the rules. Fluff is the flavor, ads depth and detail some might by silly or seam unimportant but it detail upon which to build.
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Re: Coalition States Psi-Battalion

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Blue_Lion wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:Also, I think it's absurd to dismiss fluff text as unimportant.
The vast majority of the game is fluff text, and without it, there wouldn't be a game.

Fluff should only be dismissed if it contradicts the rules. Fluff is the flavor, ads depth and detail some might by silly or seam unimportant but it detail upon which to build.


For that matter, sometimes I think that rules should be changed to reflect the fluff.

And I'm not the only one. One of the biggest things people in favor of the new CKs bring up is their idea that the original class didn't live up to the fluff text.

For example:
Nightmask wrote: It's Psi-Sword from the start should have been equal to or better than the Mind Melter version for example, like Dog Boys they should have been able to sense Supernatural Evil as a natural ability and their code not a suggestion but enforced somehow like the Cosmo-Knight's code is on them.
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Re: Coalition States Psi-Battalion

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

There are enough rules in this game's fluff text to ignore the idea that "it's only fluff", honestly.
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Re: Coalition States Psi-Battalion

Unread post by Nightmask »

Alrik Vas wrote:There are enough rules in this game's fluff text to ignore the idea that "it's only fluff", honestly.


There aren't any rules in the fluff text under debate to qualify it as more than just fluff. 'PPE was spent developing skills and psychic abilities' isn't a rule, it's a claim, one that is disproven by the actual rules.

If one did indeed spend PPE to learn skills then they'd have to KEEP spending PPE to learn more skills because that would then indeed be a rule, otherwise why would this rule only apply at creation when characters can and do learn more skills as they go along?

If one did indeed spend PPE to acquire psychic abilities then there would be an actual rule saying 'in rolling minor psionics for a character spend X PPE, in rolling major psionics one spends Y PPE' but there clearly isn't. The Rogue Scientist (as I've already pointed out) who doesn't have psionics and the one who does have the same identical dice rolls for their PPE reserves with neither listed as expending any PPE, the one with psionics can even due to favorable dice rolls have more base PPE than the non-psionic even though he's got psionics on top of the same number of skills.

Really, there isn't any rule in that fluff-text at all, just a vague claim with nothing to back it up (since exception classes by definition are exceptions to any rules they're only examples in regards to that the actual rule isn't, and since the exception classes spend PPE the rule would be you don't spend PPE).
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Re: Coalition States Psi-Battalion

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

why are you responding to me? My claim was generalized and not reflective of the information about burning PPE as you grow and learn a procession.
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Re: Coalition States Psi-Battalion

Unread post by RiftJunkie »

I started another thread that is very related to this topic because I didn't want to screw with this one.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=145037
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Re: Coalition States Psi-Battalion

Unread post by eliakon »

Nightmask wrote:
Alrik Vas wrote:There are enough rules in this game's fluff text to ignore the idea that "it's only fluff", honestly.


There aren't any rules in the fluff text under debate to qualify it as more than just fluff. 'PPE was spent developing skills and psychic abilities' isn't a rule, it's a claim, one that is disproven by the actual rules.

If one did indeed spend PPE to learn skills then they'd have to KEEP spending PPE to learn more skills because that would then indeed be a rule, otherwise why would this rule only apply at creation when characters can and do learn more skills as they go along?

If one did indeed spend PPE to acquire psychic abilities then there would be an actual rule saying 'in rolling minor psionics for a character spend X PPE, in rolling major psionics one spends Y PPE' but there clearly isn't. The Rogue Scientist (as I've already pointed out) who doesn't have psionics and the one who does have the same identical dice rolls for their PPE reserves with neither listed as expending any PPE, the one with psionics can even due to favorable dice rolls have more base PPE than the non-psionic even though he's got psionics on top of the same number of skills.

Really, there isn't any rule in that fluff-text at all, just a vague claim with nothing to back it up (since exception classes by definition are exceptions to any rules they're only examples in regards to that the actual rule isn't, and since the exception classes spend PPE the rule would be you don't spend PPE).

No. Just no. Just because its not stated out to your satisfaction does not mean its 'fluff' The books clearly state that psychics burn of their potential psychic energy to gain powers. People gain skills by doing that too some how. The exact mechanics are not defined...but then we don't know the exact mechanics of how blast physics work in palladium either....but we know that they exist. Its not an exception to say that the rules specifically state that kids have higher ppe because they haven't burned it off. That's a rule. You may not like that rule, but its how the rule is set up. The rules specifically state that psychics have lower ppe because they burned it off. That's a rule. Its not simply fluff because you don't like it. If you don't like that some of the numbers are not consistent...that's not a surprise internal consistency is no one of the systems strong points. But simply stating that because some parts or not consistent that you can there for summarily disregard the parts that disagree with your hypothesis as fluff is....well it seems logically suspect.
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Re: Coalition States Psi-Battalion

Unread post by Nightmask »

eliakon wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Alrik Vas wrote:There are enough rules in this game's fluff text to ignore the idea that "it's only fluff", honestly.


There aren't any rules in the fluff text under debate to qualify it as more than just fluff. 'PPE was spent developing skills and psychic abilities' isn't a rule, it's a claim, one that is disproven by the actual rules.

If one did indeed spend PPE to learn skills then they'd have to KEEP spending PPE to learn more skills because that would then indeed be a rule, otherwise why would this rule only apply at creation when characters can and do learn more skills as they go along?

If one did indeed spend PPE to acquire psychic abilities then there would be an actual rule saying 'in rolling minor psionics for a character spend X PPE, in rolling major psionics one spends Y PPE' but there clearly isn't. The Rogue Scientist (as I've already pointed out) who doesn't have psionics and the one who does have the same identical dice rolls for their PPE reserves with neither listed as expending any PPE, the one with psionics can even due to favorable dice rolls have more base PPE than the non-psionic even though he's got psionics on top of the same number of skills.

Really, there isn't any rule in that fluff-text at all, just a vague claim with nothing to back it up (since exception classes by definition are exceptions to any rules they're only examples in regards to that the actual rule isn't, and since the exception classes spend PPE the rule would be you don't spend PPE).


No. Just no. Just because its not stated out to your satisfaction does not mean its 'fluff' The books clearly state that psychics burn of their potential psychic energy to gain powers. People gain skills by doing that too some how. The exact mechanics are not defined...but then we don't know the exact mechanics of how blast physics work in palladium either....but we know that they exist. Its not an exception to say that the rules specifically state that kids have higher ppe because they haven't burned it off. That's a rule. You may not like that rule, but its how the rule is set up. The rules specifically state that psychics have lower ppe because they burned it off. That's a rule. Its not simply fluff because you don't like it. If you don't like that some of the numbers are not consistent...that's not a surprise internal consistency is no one of the systems strong points. But simply stating that because some parts or not consistent that you can there for summarily disregard the parts that disagree with your hypothesis as fluff is....well it seems logically suspect.


It's fluff. It's fluff because what it says and what we actually see don't agree and where we have something concrete and something that claims something that contradicts what's concrete is fluff/wrong because if it were describing an actual rule then we'd actually SEE it being followed but we do not. Outside of a few specific psychic OCC none have PPE that's lower than a non-psychic and some are even higher, if it were an actual rule then no psychic would have equal or better dice than a non-psychic in regards to PPE yet clearly they do. If it were an actual rule then as I've repeatedly pointed out and has been ignored then we'd actually see a requirement for someone like a Rogue Scientist gaining minor or major psionics having to take a PPE penalty compared to one that didn't have psionics yet we do not.

Constantly saying 'no really it's a rule, nothing actually follows it but it's so totally a rule' doesn't make it a rule. It may have started as an explanation of some sort but is really just an artifact of cut-and-paste that should have been dropped a long time ago. The fact you just keep saying 'it's a rule!' rather than address my individual points and examples just supports my side of things, you can't satisfactorily justify it as a rule when nothing actually follows it and it doesn't even have anything to it beyond a vague 'yeah PPE was spent somehow so people could get skills and psionics but they totally don't show it and they totally don't have to when gaining more skills and psychic powers'.

So, are you just going to say 'no really it's a rule!' once again or actually address the points I actually made for how can it be a rule when it has no rules to it and nothing actually follows it? Because that Major Psychic Rogue Scientist has just as much PPE as that non-Psychic Rogue Scientist when if an actual rule existed that one had to spend PPE on psychic powers he'd have less, and everyone as they advanced would have to spend PPE or be unable to gain new skills because again if it were an actual rule that PPE was spent in learning skills then they'd have to lose PPE as they leveled or become incapable of learning (which I can't imagine would even be remotely acceptable).

Really, it just isn't so. Unless you're in a class that actually does spend PPE on things no one's spending PPE on things like skills or psychic powers; there are no rules whatsoever that require it nor would it make any sense to have such a rule.
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It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
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Re: Coalition States Psi-Battalion

Unread post by Mack »

At this point there's no use continuing the fluff / not-fluff debate. Neither side is going to convince the other. Just agree to disagree and move on.
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Re: Coalition States Psi-Battalion

Unread post by Tor »

Killer Cyborg wrote:sometimes I think that rules should be changed to reflect the fluff. And I'm not the only one. One of the biggest things people in favor of the new CKs bring up is their idea that the original class didn't live up to the fluff text.

For example:
Nightmask wrote: It's Psi-Sword from the start should have been equal to or better than the Mind Melter version for example, like Dog Boys they should have been able to sense Supernatural Evil as a natural ability and their code not a suggestion but enforced somehow like the Cosmo-Knight's code is on them.


What descriptive text (I think if we see value in it we ought to stop participating in calling it fluff, makes it sound too erotic) in particular did CyberKs fall short of?
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Re: Coalition States Psi-Battalion

Unread post by grandmaster z0b »

Tor wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:sometimes I think that rules should be changed to reflect the fluff. And I'm not the only one. One of the biggest things people in favor of the new CKs bring up is their idea that the original class didn't live up to the fluff text.

For example:
Nightmask wrote: It's Psi-Sword from the start should have been equal to or better than the Mind Melter version for example, like Dog Boys they should have been able to sense Supernatural Evil as a natural ability and their code not a suggestion but enforced somehow like the Cosmo-Knight's code is on them.


What descriptive text (I think if we see value in it we ought to stop participating in calling it fluff, makes it sound too erotic) in particular did CyberKs fall short of?

Not sure if there was anything too descriptive to be honest. It could be the use of exclamation marks here
RMB wrote:The cyber-knight is also the only O.C.C., other than the Mind Melter,who can create a psi-sword! A psi-sword is a mega-damage energy weapon that the warrior can mentally will into existence!


Or more likely
Lastly, the cyber-knight's psi-sword is not quite as powerful as the mind melter's, but it is still a weapon to be feared.


The truth is that there was nothing in the original Rifts book that said the CK really relied on the psi-sword, however many people felt that they would like the game better if the CK could rely on their signature weapon more, including myself. I actually like the fact the Mind Melter's version was more powerful than the CKs but I would have liked the CKs to do a bit more damage. At least 2d6 at first level so using the psi-sword was a better option than using a vibro-blade, and preferably 4d6 or more by level 5 so that using the TW fireblade wasn't the go-to weapon until level 9.
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Re: Coalition States Psi-Battalion

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

grandmaster z0b wrote:The truth is that there was nothing in the original Rifts book that said the CK really relied on the psi-sword,


Correct. :ok:

however many people felt that they would like the game better if the CK could rely on their signature weapon more, including myself. I actually like the fact the Mind Melter's version was more powerful than the CKs but I would have liked the CKs to do a bit more damage. At least 2d6 at first level so using the psi-sword was a better option than using a vibro-blade, and preferably 4d6 or more by level 5 so that using the TW fireblade wasn't the go-to weapon until level 9.


Actually, a 3d6 MD Psi-Sword would be overall better than a 4d6 TW Flaming Sword, because there are a heck of a lot of things that are either Resistant or Impervious to Fire/Heat damage, and not a heck of a lot that's Resistant or Impervious to a Psi-Sword.
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Re: Coalition States Psi-Battalion

Unread post by Tor »

grandmaster z0b wrote:I would have liked the CKs to do a bit more damage. At least 2d6 at first level so using the psi-sword was a better option than using a vibro-blade


Having low-level CyberKs using vibro-blades is cool though. One does this in the CB1 combat example when fighting a grunt.

No reason they need to be better at level 1.

If it is incredibly important though, we now have rules for master-psi guys who start off with an extra die.

If you start out as someone with Psyscape training that could also be doubled to 4d6 at first.

If one of the Gizmoteers from New Babylon made it to Psyscape and handed out some Psi-Blades then you can even start doing 5d6.
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Re: Coalition States Psi-Battalion

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Tor wrote:
grandmaster z0b wrote:I would have liked the CKs to do a bit more damage. At least 2d6 at first level so using the psi-sword was a better option than using a vibro-blade


Having low-level CyberKs using vibro-blades is cool though.


Agreed.
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