Missiles - Split from Ulti-Max topic

[dragonfett]

Triax put a force field on one of the support pods (medic pod or mechanic pod) in NGR 1.

Medic, page 118, nice find, not sure if I ever noticed that, pretty significant. Clearly an early model since it reduces flight speed and takes a whole day to recharge though. Still, better than nothing and would save on repair fees. A useful feature for protecting people you are treating who aren't wrapped in MDC armor as well.

why is the Ulti-Max considered to be so awesome? Completely ammo-based, armor is meh. Damage potential is pretty terrible. I never understood why it's considered so awesome.

It has a decent payload of mini-missiles, a rail gun with okay range, and a force field, allowing sustanied punishment on the field when separated from mechanics. Not being able to use the laser while the field is up kinda sucks, but it has lower range than the rail-gun, so it makes sense to stay ~5000 feet from enemy and use rail gun + force field, and then maybe switch to laser if they close within 4000 feet and your field is down.

A Triax Predator (the NGR version, not the North American version) could probably defeat it in single combat.

Their laser cannon is pretty intimidating, but I think the mini missile payload of the Ulti-Max would annihilate the Predator. Predator only has 2, which at best will take down the force field.

The Ulti's rail gun also has better range, so unless they start off in close range, the Ulti-Max is going to get in some free shots.

while it is compared to the Glitterboy, an Ulti-Max has no chance of defeating a Glitterboy.

A volley of 6 plasma mini-missiles does 6d6x10 MD, that's double the damage of a boom gun, an average of 210 MD per volley. Can a Glitter-Boy survive 5 of these?

Sure, Triax GBs can throw together a 4d6x10 volley, but they can only do that 3 times. The Ulti-Max can accrue damage faster, which can compensate for them having 150 less MDC protection.

Not only that, but the GB is going to be taking blast radius damage from missiles to all its parts from the get-go. The Ulti-Max's parts will be protected from the first volley of missiles by the force field.

The Ulti-Max's sextuple mini-missile chain allows them to exceed the Dyna-Max and Black Knight in single-action damage, even if it doesn't have as impressive a payload. Only the Dragonwing, Devastator, Hunter/Jager can chain together more missile damage, while the Super-Hunter can tie it.

Jagers with weapon 7 basically annihilate anybody in 1on1 combat unless you can shoot down their volleys. Very few can survive 48 short-range missiles hitting all at once.

Where is it mentioned that body armors/power armors/robot vehicles take missile splash damage to other areas when they are struck by missiles? I have asked this before on the forums and was told that missiles only deal damage to main body.

[Tor]

RMBp41 "near misses do half damage. The First is by being within the blast radius of the target struck by a direct hit".

No exceptions listed for non-main locations.

I can only see a few situations where all other parts of a bot or vehicle would not take 1/2 the amount the main body does:

1) the robot or vehicle is very big and/or the blast radius of the missile is very small, so that the distance between 2 parts exceeds the diameter of the blast sphere, making it impossible for both to be caught in the radius simultaneously
2) the block-sacrifice tactic mentioned in HU where you can take the main damage with your arms and shield the main body somehow (though I'm not sure if that protects the other parts)

If we extrapolate on the block-sacrifice idea, we might determine that hitting 1 thing creates kind of a shield in the blast-sphere, preventing things behind that from getting hurt...

Like for example, if you did a called shot on a missile port on the front of the robot, and the missile had a blast radius of 10 feet, and the robot was only 5 feet thick, by standard rules, a missile port on the back of the robot would be within the radius... but extrapolating the block-sacrifice idea, the main body should shield the rear port from the expansion of that energy wave.

[Tiree]

It is definitely vagueness of the rules.

I have seen games go both ways with splash damage on missiles. For the most part, if Splash Damage is utilized effectively, games end quickly. Robotech is a great example of such a thing when you think about all the little 5 MDC hit locations.

Now - I don't have the rules in front of me. But I will leave this little gem that I have gleaned over the years playing the game. I am pretty sure the rules state something like the following:

Missiles can not make called shots (Except Mini-Missiles, and in limited instances)
All non-called shots hit main body.

Therefore splash damage, only hits main body...

[Kagashi]

in the Rifts Novels, the author had splash damage from a plasma missile hit the Ulti-Max and damage the rail gun feed, rendering the rail gun useless, forcing the pilot to have to use the laser feature of the main gun to continue to fight.

No game mechanics listed in RUE or RMB to back that up, but it makes sense to me. And it forces players to have to use weapons and/or features they normally wouldn't use because of higher damage and/or range.

[Shark_Force]

in the Rifts Novels, the author had splash damage from a plasma missile hit the Ulti-Max and damage the rail gun feed, rendering the rail gun useless, forcing the pilot to have to use the laser feature of the main gun to continue to fight.

No game mechanics listed in RUE or RMB to back that up, but it makes sense to me. And it forces players to have to use weapons and/or features they normally wouldn't use because of higher damage and/or range.

unfortunately, it also means that just about any AOE attack is going to destroy various small parts on body armour, and instantly incinerate the exposed parts on the second such attack (if the armour was environmental; if not, the parts should have been incinerated in the first place).

it makes absolutely no sense for it to only hit the main body, but if it hits everything it breaks the game completely.

[Tor]

I am pretty sure the rules state something like the following: Missiles can not make called shots (Except Mini-Missiles, and in limited instances)

Where is this said?

All non-called shots hit main body. Therefore splash damage, only hits main body...

A does not lead to B. Calling your shot can change the primary target from the main body to something else.

The primary target takes full missile damage. Splash damages happens to whatever is within blast radius distance from that main target.

it forces players to have to use weapons and/or features they normally wouldn't use because of higher damage and/or range.

Or creates greater incentive to shoot down missiles.

It now occurs to me that the NGR-GB would be best-served using their mini-missiles to try and detonate volleys the Ulti-Max sends at them...

But that only works defensively. I'm pretty sure if the GB tries sniping the Ulti-Max with a boom gun or missile volley or something like that, the Ulti-Max can simultaneously attack with a 6-missile volley and there will be no chance to defend against it. So all the UM has to do is wait for the GB to attack first.

unfortunately, it also means that just about any AOE attack is going to destroy various small parts on body armour, and instantly incinerate the exposed parts on the second such attack (if the armour was environmental; if not, the parts should have been incinerated in the first place).

Yup.

if it hits everything it breaks the game completely.

I am not understanding how missiles being deadly is a game breaker. They're quite expensive, hard to acquire, hard to transport. Let's keep in mind that in RMB a single mini-missile launcher was comparable to a plasma rifle, heavy weaponry, and that it took vehicles/bots to get the higher payloads/types.

[Shark_Force]

it breaks the game because it is either used and is pretty much an "I win" button, or it isn't used at all. any time you actually used AOE weapons in general (many of which are neither expensive nor hard to transport), you pretty much just invalidate armour as a defensive tool and require everyone to use force fields (or natural MDC) for defense.

no, it doesn't make logical sense for explosions to only hit the main body. but if you have them hit everything, you turn AOE and force fields into something that is almost required, and that is not by any means even remotely implied in the setting.

whether or not a missile instantly forces an enemy to retreat from the fight (or else lose most of their extremities to the next one), they are extremely powerful. getting hit by a volley of missiles already wrecks most armour anyways, there's no need to turn grenades and various spells that inflict minor damage in an area into "I win" buttons as well.

[Kagashi]

it breaks the game because it is either used and is pretty much an "I win" button, or it isn't used at all. any time you actually used AOE weapons in general (many of which are neither expensive nor hard to transport), you pretty much just invalidate armour as a defensive tool and require everyone to use force fields (or natural MDC) for defense.

no, it doesn't make logical sense for explosions to only hit the main body. but if you have them hit everything, you turn AOE and force fields into something that is almost required, and that is not by any means even remotely implied in the setting.

whether or not a missile instantly forces an enemy to retreat from the fight (or else lose most of their extremities to the next one), they are extremely powerful. getting hit by a volley of missiles already wrecks most armour anyways, there's no need to turn grenades and various spells that inflict minor damage in an area into "I win" buttons as well.

IDK, there is a little GMing required if you go with splash damage rules. For example, which direction did the middle hit from? From the top? than the main body would likely block any damage going to the legs. What if the missile hit the right side of the bot, than the main body would shield the left. Its because of this Palladium didnt want to complicate the rules, stating it only hits the main body and no mention of any splash damage.

But RUE-era Rifts is so full of crazy defensive game mechanics already (laser-resistant armor, kinetic-resistant armor, plasma-resistant armor, force fields, self replicating armor, everybody and their mother has auto dodge, increased attacks per melee, etc...), why not incorporate some more lethality into the game? I don't see it as a negative game changer...rather an equalizer to common power creep.

Incorporating splash damage also rightfully sets explosives and small arms fire into two different categories. If getting hit by a missile didnt destroy you in the first place, it SHOULD mess you up pretty bad. I mean, missiles are so nerfed these days by small arms doing the same, if not more damage per burst than a missile that costs thousands of credits when that burst is only a fraction of an eclip in cost. Missiles are supposed to be destructive. Same with grenades. A bot engulfed in a ball of plasma from a volley of missiles should be melting optics, radio antenna, secondary weapon systems, and so forth.

Course, thats all just my opinion. The official rules dont go into it at all.

[Shark_Force]

if a bot got hit by a volley of plasma missiles and *didn't* turn into a puddle of molten slag, it's because it had an obscene amount of hit points.

missile volleys are devastating, typically get a significant bonus to strike, and if there are at least 4 missiles cannot be dodged.

that's pretty powerful already, if you ask me.

mini-missiles are, in fact, man-portable weapons, and benefit from a significantly longer range than typical man-portable weapons, and can also be volleyed for devastating effect. if you want a combination of range, damage, and AOE, missiles (including mini-missiles) outperform pretty much everything else out there. their damage also tends to be more reliable as well (only plasma missiles can be ignored outright by immunity to fire or energy, every other missile type is basically kinetic damage, and i dunno where you got this crazy idea that kinetic-resistant armour is commonly available, but it really isn't).

[Kagashi]

if a bot got hit by a volley of plasma missiles and *didn't* turn into a puddle of molten slag, it's because it had an obscene amount of hit points.

missile volleys are devastating, typically get a significant bonus to strike, and if there are at least 4 missiles cannot be dodged.

that's pretty powerful already, if you ask me.

mini-missiles are, in fact, man-portable weapons, and benefit from a significantly longer range than typical man-portable weapons, and can also be volleyed for devastating effect. if you want a combination of range, damage, and AOE, missiles (including mini-missiles) outperform pretty much everything else out there. their damage also tends to be more reliable as well (only plasma missiles can be ignored outright by immunity to fire or energy, every other missile type is basically kinetic damage, and i dunno where you got this crazy idea that kinetic-resistant armour is commonly available, but it really isn't).

Sure, but at what cost? The cheapest mini-missile (frag or HE) goes for 1200 cr a pop. Where as a simple E-Clip can be recharged for a little as 800 cr. That same eclip slapped into a common L-20 pulse rifle boasts 6D6 MD for a three round burst at a whopping 60 credits per burst, still dealing 1D6 more damage than the HE or Frag missile. Combining to the non-dodgeable goal of 4 missiles per volley, that volley now just cost 4800 credits, can still be shot down by a 20 credit blast from that L-20 (doing no damage at all), and in some cases, just Winchestered his whole payload. Heck, a SAMAS cant even do that without modification. It would be nice if there were a rule that would help the missiles damage maximize its effect to help offset the cost comparison.

Its not really all that big of deal for military campaigns like the Coalition or a Sentinels-like Robotech game where munitions are readily available and issued with very little restraint, but it does make a huge difference for a Rifts game where mercs are having to pay their way and rearming themselves after each battle.

As for kinetic resistant armor, try Merc Ops page 89. Northern Gun NG-A12 Anti-Ballistic Armor. According to NG1, NG is number 8 in tech producing companies of North America, and the description says they literally supply everybody. Thus, pretty darn available. And for 68,000 cr., its 80 MDC is a quite expensive compared to the likes of more common Crusader armor, but the price is expected to come down as it gains popularity.

Too limited to North America? Too expensive? Lets try Naruni Thermo-Kinetic armor which is marketed across both North and South America and across the megaverse from the Milky Way Galaxy to the Three Galaxies. Thats pretty darn available as well. And you can get it for a little as 12,000 cr, while not only protecting yourself from Kinetic attacks, but Plasma at the same time. Not limited to body armor either, take a look at the cheap Sun Chariot Power Armor and other robots in Naruni Wave 2.

How about Megaversal Legion's Inertial Damping fields? Sure, limited to the ML, but the technology's roots live with the Dakir who rival the Naruni and Splugorth in technology and could be in the top weapons merchants in the Megaverse if they chose. Rather they send out legions of troops armed with the technology as mercenaries. But the technology is still out there.

In all three cases, kinetic armor is available to be encountered in 85% of Rifts written setting (North and South America), and its not all that hard to buy if you know what you are looking for. Especially since Northern Gun is like the Walmart of Rifts.

[Tiree]

I am pretty sure the rules state something like the following: Missiles can not make called shots (Except Mini-Missiles, and in limited instances)

Where is this said?

I'm slightly wrong here is some text to clarify...

A Natural Twenty to strike with explosives and missiles. A Natural 20 is a roll of 20 to strike on 1020 that has not been modified by any bonuses. It always hits its mark, including Called Shots, and inflicts double damage (triple for Armor Piercing).

But the noted selection in Red is from Page 362. It appears to be slightly inconsistent. It is why I believe Mini-Missiles are different. I know from playing Robotech many years, it is almost expected to make called and aimed shots with Mini-Missiles versus the Invid. I think this is badly worded similar version.

Damage from Missile Strike
Direct hits arc when the missiles impact directly on the player character (or his robot, power armor, vehicle, etc.). A direct hit does full damage. A volley of missiles inflicts full damage for each missile in the volley.

Blast radius or near misses. Getting caught in a blast radius docs half damage. Your companion standing 10 feet (3 m) away is hit by a high explosive missile with a 30 foot (9.1 m) blast radius. He takes full damage from a direct hit. but your character is also caught in the blast radius. Fortunately, distance buys your character some luck and he takes half the M.D. since he was not caught directly in the blast. Damage can be reduced by half again if the player makes a successful roll with impact.

Roll with impact to reduce damage. Whenever a character is struck by an explosive force or impact (ram attack, fall, etc.). he can attempt to roll with the force to minimize the damage. This is where roll with impact comes into play. A successful roll means half damage. The number that must be matched or overcome is the attacker's roll to strike - or - if a strike number is not available (say from a booby trap. mine or automated system), a 14 or higher must be made to successfully roll with impact. A successful roll, whether from a direct hit or blast radius, means the character suffers half the normal damage. A failed roll means full damage (whatever that may be).

Note: All missiles always strike the main body.

I believe the rules found in Invid Invasion are probably better worded and more clear on the subject. Even if they are no longer valid or current. But I do stand on my ruling about missiles in general (which should still be consistent with the rules): Missiles strike the main body, except for those which are done via a Called Shot. Blast Radius/Splash Damage only affects Main Body only for targets outside of the direct hit.

I come to this conclusion based on the above quoted section and the below little nugget of information:

Block Sacrifice. If a missile cannot be dodged and the defender is piloting a robot vehicle or is a cyborg with bionic arms, the character can sacrifice his robot's arms by covering the main body with them, thus allowing the arms to take the damage instead of the body. The advantage of this tactic is that the arms are likely to be blown to smithereens, but the main body and remaining weapon systems and locomotion are left intact. If the arms are not destroyed, I strongly suggest the G.M., or player, roll on the Optional Critical Damage Tables under "arms," to determine specific damage and side effects.

Again - if you want combat to be deadly, use the splash damage on every component. If you don't then just the Main Body. But I'd like to note: If you do decide to go the more deadly route; make sure the mecha are comparable with their MDC Hit Locations. Robotech is notoriously bad to have minimal locations in Macross, to have minutia level detail in Invid Invasion. I had hoped they would have been consistent in the 2nd Edition, but alas it was copied from 1e and moved forward. Values are different, but locations stayed the same.

[Shark_Force]

Sure, but at what cost? The cheapest mini-missile (frag or HE) goes for 1200 cr a pop. Where as a simple E-Clip can be recharged for a little as 800 cr. That same eclip slapped into a common L-20 pulse rifle boasts 6D6 MD for a three round burst at a whopping 60 credits per burst, still dealing 1D6 more damage than the HE or Frag missile. Combining to the non-dodgeable goal of 4 missiles per volley, that volley now just cost 4800 credits, can still be shot down by a 20 credit blast from that L-20 (doing no damage at all), and in some cases, just Winchestered his whole payload. Heck, a SAMAS cant even do that without modification. It would be nice if there were a rule that would help the missiles damage maximize its effect to help offset the cost comparison.

Its not really all that big of deal for military campaigns like the Coalition or a Sentinels-like Robotech game where munitions are readily available and issued with very little restraint, but it does make a huge difference for a Rifts game where mercs are having to pay their way and rearming themselves after each battle.

As for kinetic resistant armor, try Merc Ops page 89. Northern Gun NG-A12 Anti-Ballistic Armor. According to NG1, NG is number 8 in tech producing companies of North America, and the description says they literally supply everybody. Thus, pretty darn available. And for 68,000 cr., its 80 MDC is a quite expensive compared to the likes of more common Crusader armor, but the price is expected to come down as it gains popularity.

Too limited to North America? Too expensive? Lets try Naruni Thermo-Kinetic armor which is marketed across both North and South America and across the megaverse from the Milky Way Galaxy to the Three Galaxies. Thats pretty darn available as well. And you can get it for a little as 12,000 cr, while not only protecting yourself from Kinetic attacks, but Plasma at the same time. Not limited to body armor either, take a look at the cheap Sun Chariot Power Armor and other robots in Naruni Wave 2.

How about Megaversal Legion's Inertial Damping fields? Sure, limited to the ML, but the technology's roots live with the Dakir who rival the Naruni and Splugorth in technology and could be in the top weapons merchants in the Megaverse if they chose. Rather they send out legions of troops armed with the technology as mercenaries. But the technology is still out there.

In all three cases, kinetic armor is available to be encountered in 85% of Rifts written setting (North and South America), and its not all that hard to buy if you know what you are looking for. Especially since Northern Gun is like the Walmart of Rifts.

damage per action is often as important, if not more so, than damage per credit.

now, don't get me wrong. efficient damage is great. but if it takes you 5 times as long to dish it out, that also means the other guy has 5 times as long to dish it back. if you "save" 4000 credits on ammunition but take 40 MDC on your armour as a result of not killing something quickly, you've actually probably lost far more than you saved.

and that's just assuming a single target. if the mini-missile hits a group of clumped-up enemies, you're potentially looking at 4d6x10 to each of them just completely eradicating an entire group of people.

as to shooting the missiles down, well:

1) 2d6 is not by any means guaranteed to destroy a mini-missile.
2) because of their speed, missiles are often harder to hit than most people give them credit for (no really, there's a penalty based on how fast your target is moving). in addition, if you are moving then you may have to shoot wild, which adds even more difficulty).
3) even if you destroy a mini-missile in the volley, it's only a *chance* that it will spread to the rest of the volley.
4) you don't always get an action to shoot first. for example, in phase world within 1 mile of a target while firing cruise missiles, they cannot react. how close would be appropriate for other settings? who knows. regardless, there's always surprise (and the ever-popular simultaneous attack). certainly, you must be aware of the attack to respond in any event.
5) if the attack is made close enough, it may be physically impossible for you to react before the missiles are close enough to catch you in the blast radius, so even if you do shoot them down you might still take enough damage to finish off your armour.

missiles cost a lot. they also do a lot. they inflict a lot of damage at excellent range, in an area. it costs a lot to fire them off, but it may save you a lot of money in repairs to fire them off as well. they certainly aren't something you should use all the time for everything, but if you're up against a tough enemy, you're going to be glad you have them instead of (or, best of all, in addition to) your energy rifle.

and no, those armours are not nearly as widespread as you seem to think. available, yes. especially the NG armour (naruni equipment is specifically noted as being hard to find on rifts earth, for various reasons, and for many people will be unacceptable due to it's extraterrestrial origin even if it is available). but common? not by a long shot. you already specifically noted that the price is expected to come down *as it gains popularity* - in other words, right now, it isn't common to find people wearing it, otherwise it would not need to be gaining popularity.

truth be told, for most people kinetic resistance isn't that appealing. kinetic damage mostly comes from railguns and missiles (the province of military organizations for the most part, not bandits - so unless you're planning on picking a fight with the CS, you should be far more worried about lasers. heck, even then, there's probably 20 lasers for every railgun you'll face). what doesn't come from railguns and missiles mostly comes from melee attacks, and you'll be hoping to finish off those enemies before they can get into melee in the first place.

(interestingly, that armour should probably be of greatest interest to techno-wizards, and the traveling companions of spellcasters, who are most likely to be able to ignore energy damage entirely and will be looking for something to increase their resistance to the few things that *can* damage them at all...)

[Tiree]

I am going to reiterate a point I had earlier on splash damage, and try to make it clear:

I believe the spirit of the rules are as follows: You can only be damaged from an attack one time. Splash Damage only affects the Main Body of a target. If a player gets hit, they receive the Direct Damage (to whatever location was being attacked), and the blast radius rolls past the player to another player as splash damage that only affects their Main Body.

Otherwise you have people getting hit multiple times on one attack, and that isn't fair nor consistent within the rules.

As an aside note - I have do allow missile barrages that target an area, that only does blast radius damage to targets. And that is great for swarm tactics of the enemy and you have a ton of missiles to fire. But that is more a house rule than anything.

[Tor]

it breaks the game because it is either used and is pretty much an "I win" button

How? This gives missiles a neat advantage over PA/bots with hit locations. These are the things least likely to be killed by missiles anyway. Missiles are already major I-win buttons.

Consider the amount of MDC that most weapons have. Even if players' environmental BA survives a blast radius, most of their gear won't. Missiles (or nades) are, and should, be pretty scary.

any time you actually used AOE weapons in general (many of which are neither expensive nor hard to transport), you pretty much just invalidate armour as a defensive tool and require everyone to use force fields (or natural MDC) for defense.

Only for guarding certain locations.

Blast radii basically cover a realm some thought exclusive to called shots.

if you have them hit everything, you turn AOE and force fields into something that is almost required

Not really, it just means that a lot of areas will take damage that in most battles, probably would not. How often do people actually aim for a robot's high-beams or inferior weapons, for example?

This simply creates a major advantage for force fields, and makes some things have vulnerabilities to AoE weaponry, which is rare compared to other weapons, and also kind of expensive, so it's not a big issue.

Also, blast radius hitting locations doesn't mean it hits EVERYTHING. As mentioned above, GMs are free to use some common sense regarding blast-shielding. IE a missile hitting the chest won't wrap-around to hit something right on the back, but it will hit stuff on the gut/groin/shin/face.

Even ignoring radius-shaping common sense, many things are obviously bigger than the blast radius of smaller missiles and would not have all their parts hit by them. It's not as if I can fire a mini-missile at a Kreeghor Dreadnought and hit every part of it.

whether or not a missile instantly forces an enemy to retreat from the fight (or else lose most of their extremities to the next one), they are extremely powerful. getting hit by a volley of missiles already wrecks most armour anyways, there's no need to turn grenades and various spells that inflict minor damage in an area into "I win" buttons as well.

Please give an example of the armor you think is too compromised by this. I've found the helmet/limb MDC of most stuff to be pretty generous, considering that it only needs to be roughly half that of the main body to break even.

mini-missiles are, in fact
man-portable weapons
can also be volleyed for devastating effect

Most man-portable versions can't fire volleys, the basic kind couldn't. Any man-portable volleyers in particular you think are game-breaking, considering the setting they were made for?

I'm slightly wrong
here is some text to clarify...

A Natural Twenty to strike with explosives and missiles. A Natural 20 is a roll of 20 to strike on 1020 that has not been modified by any bonuses. It always hits its mark, including Called Shots, and inflicts double damage (triple for Armor Piercing).

But the noted selection in Red is from Page 362. It appears to be slightly inconsistent. It is why I believe Mini-Missiles are different. I know from playing Robotech many years, it is almost expected to make called and aimed shots with Mini-Missiles versus the Invid. I think this is badly worded similar version.

Damage from Missile Strike
Direct hits arc when the missiles impact directly on the player character (or his robot, power armor, vehicle, etc.). A direct hit does full damage. A volley of missiles inflicts full damage for each missile in the volley.

Blast radius or near misses. Getting caught in a blast radius docs half damage. Your companion standing 10 feet (3 m) away is hit by a high explosive missile with a 30 foot (9.1 m) blast radius. He takes full damage from a direct hit. but your character is also caught in the blast radius. Fortunately, distance buys your character some luck and he takes half the M.D. since he was not caught directly in the blast. Damage can be reduced by half again if the player makes a successful roll with impact.

Roll with impact to reduce damage. Whenever a character is struck by an explosive force or impact (ram attack, fall, etc.). he can attempt to roll with the force to minimize the damage. This is where roll with impact comes into play. A successful roll means half damage. The number that must be matched or overcome is the attacker's roll to strike - or - if a strike number is not available (say from a booby trap. mine or automated system), a 14 or higher must be made to successfully roll with impact. A successful roll, whether from a direct hit or blast radius, means the character suffers half the normal damage. A failed roll means full damage (whatever that may be).

Note: All missiles always strike the main body.

I've highlighted, in what you quoted, in blue, something that contrasts with what is in red. If called shots with explosives/missiles 'always hit their mark', this indicates you can make called shots with at least one of them... and of all explosives, missiles seem the most designed for specific aiming and things like called shots, so it is hard to think they would be an exception.

One thing I would propose here: always striking the main body is NOT the same thing as the main body necessarily being the primary target of a missile.

What we can take this to mean is that no matter where you aim on something, the main body will also be struck. This means that if you do a called shot with a missile on something other than the main body, the main body will always be struck as a (secondary) target, and take half damage. With this perspective, there is no conflict between these two colored phrases.

I do stand on my ruling about missiles in general (which should still be consistent with the rules):
Missiles strike the main body, except for those which are done via a Called Shot.
Blast Radius/Splash Damage only affects Main Body only for targets outside of the direct hit.

I'm having trouble figuring out whether or not we are disagreeing about anything. Correct me if I'm wrong but what we seem to agreee on is:
1) missiles can be aimed at the main body (the default target)
2) missiles can be aimed at other locations via called shots

The issue of contention to me is: who takes the 1/2 splash damage.
1) I believe if you target the main body, then all locations within radius-distance of center-of-mass (could require some GM discussion as to what that is)
2) I believe if you target another location with a called shot, then it takes full damage, and in most cases the main body should take half. Obviously if a robot is punching with a 50ft arm and you shoot a 10ft radius missile at the bot's hand, it shouldn't hit the main body though.

I come to this conclusion based on the above quoted section and the below little nugget of information:

Block Sacrifice. If a missile cannot be dodged and the defender is piloting a robot vehicle or is a cyborg with bionic arms, the character can sacrifice his robot's arms by covering the main body with them, thus allowing the arms to take the damage instead of the body. The advantage of this tactic is that the arms are likely to be blown to smithereens, but the main body and remaining weapon systems and locomotion are left intact. If the arms are not destroyed, I strongly suggest the G.M., or player, roll on the Optional Critical Damage Tables under "arms," to determine specific damage and side effects.

Again - if you want combat to be deadly, use the splash damage on every component. If you don't then just the Main Body. But I'd like to note: If you do decide to go the more deadly route; make sure the mecha are comparable with their MDC Hit Locations. Robotech is notoriously bad to have minimal locations in Macross, to have minutia level detail in Invid Invasion. I had hoped they would have been consistent in the 2nd Edition, but alas it was copied from 1e and moved forward. Values are different, but locations stayed the same.

Block-sacrifice is a specific defense requiring an action to do, and it is done by orienting certain things in the path of the blast sphere to shape that expanding damage to prevent it from going beyond the blockade/shield.

Although it can give us some insight on how to realistically house-rule other logical sphere-shaping considerations, it does not introduce a general rule of locations being immune to the 1/2 splash.

I believe the spirit of the rules are as follows: You can only be damaged from an attack one time. Splash Damage only affects the Main Body of a target. If a player gets hit, they receive the Direct Damage (to whatever location was being attacked), and the blast radius rolls past the player to another player as splash damage that only affects their Main Body.

Otherwise you have people getting hit multiple times on one attack, and that isn't fair nor consistent within the rules.

We are not discussing people, we are discussing hit locations on robots and things.

There are probably a couple living beings out there who have hit-location life-points but for the most part they have a single damage pool with no 'main body' drama to deal with.

[guardiandashi]

RE the missiles and mini-missiles and the "aiming"
I always interpreted it as:
guided missiles always hit the main body, the only exception might be "megastructures" such as the SDF's in robotech, possibly other capital ships, mechanoid really big stuff etc.
UNGUIDED mini-missiles can be aimed, since many mini-missiles are unguided or limited guidance they can be aimed.

the way of determining if they are considered guided or not for this purpose is :do they have a to hit bonus?
if the missile has a hit bonus then it is considered guided and will by definition hit the main body as it actively aims for that.
if it does not have a hit bonus then it basically is a "rocket" and hits whatever is in front of it.

[Shark_Force]

1/3 or even 1/4 the amount of MDC of the main body for arms is not terribly uncommon for many armours.

armours that don't even *have* a helmet (and in some extreme cases, such as millenium leaf armour, don't even provide any protection to the sides of the torso, arms, or legs at all) are also quite common.

the explosion rule that explosions hit everywhere essentially means that any non-environmental body armour is worthless. the moment you're in an explosion, which is neither all that expensive nor all that uncommon. the RMB featured a couple of weapons with underslung grenade launchers, and while mini-missiles are pretty expensive for what they do, grenades are pretty inexpensive actually. never mind the various weapons that have a explosions that hit a small area (1-3 foot radius sounds small, but a 3' radius on your torso will hit most of your body except for the feet) like triax pump guns or bursts from other weapons with explosive rounds.

what's more, you're acting like this *only* matters for explosives that are already hitting the main body of something. what about explosives that hit someone else (or that miss and hit the ground next to you) and you're caught in the splash? the half damage there is also applied to your main body, but if AOE hits all locations equally, you've got basically half your actual MDC against those effects. and what about magic or other effects that hit an area for the same amount of damage? you've got basically half MDC (or none, if you're not in environmental armour) against all effects of that nature. same with, say, a flamethrower.

again, it makes sense for armour to be hit in every location. it really does. but it makes certain things almost a requirement. anyone without a forcefield and an AOE attack is at a severe disadvantage, and non-environmental body armours are basically worthless and should be nearly impossible to sell if you use those rules. i mean, there aren't a lot of people in the world looking for protection that will allow an attack which would barely scratch environmental armour to vaporise their head, arms, and legs, with significant portions of their torso being burnt after those completely exposed areas are gone.

[Tiree]

I'm having trouble figuring out whether or not we are disagreeing about anything. Correct me if I'm wrong but what we seem to agreee on is:
1) missiles can be aimed at the main body (the default target)
2) missiles can be aimed at other locations via called shots

Guardiandashi already made the point. You can't make called shots with guided missiles, they always strike the main body. Mini-Missiles tend to not be guided and thus can strike other targets.

And yes, there are man portable mini-missile launchers that can fire 4 or more missiles at a target (See Black Market Sourcebook)

The issue of contention to me is: who takes the 1/2 splash damage.
1) I believe if you target the main body, then all locations within radius-distance of center-of-mass (could require some GM discussion as to what that is)
2) I believe if you target another location with a called shot, then it takes full damage, and in most cases the main body should take half. Obviously if a robot is punching with a 50ft arm and you shoot a 10ft radius missile at the bot's hand, it shouldn't hit the main body though.

And yes, this is a disagreement.

As mentioned before, if a player (in a PA, Robot, or anything with Hit Locations) also deals with Splash Damage from Missiles, it will cause a very brutal backlash. That is unless you limit such weaponry within your games, but that is an alteration to the setting.

I mainly play Robotech, and I let the players have a fairly healthy supply of ammunition (as per the show). Therefore I don't want the players to 1 shot a badguy with one missile, unless they specifically target a weak spot. If I used your rules the Invid would be 1 shotted insta death because of their weak hit location instant death shot. Called Shots are important in Robotech, especially with mini-missiles. But blast radii should not be in affect for direct hits on the same target.

[Kagashi]

I'm having trouble figuring out whether or not we are disagreeing about anything. Correct me if I'm wrong but what we seem to agreee on is:
1) missiles can be aimed at the main body (the default target)
2) missiles can be aimed at other locations via called shots

Guardiandashi already made the point. You can't make called shots with guided missiles, they always strike the main body. Mini-Missiles tend to not be guided and thus can strike other targets.

And yes, there are man portable mini-missile launchers that can fire 4 or more missiles at a target (See Black Market Sourcebook)

The issue of contention to me is: who takes the 1/2 splash damage.
1) I believe if you target the main body, then all locations within radius-distance of center-of-mass (could require some GM discussion as to what that is)
2) I believe if you target another location with a called shot, then it takes full damage, and in most cases the main body should take half. Obviously if a robot is punching with a 50ft arm and you shoot a 10ft radius missile at the bot's hand, it shouldn't hit the main body though.

And yes, this is a disagreement.

As mentioned before, if a player (in a PA, Robot, or anything with Hit Locations) also deals with Splash Damage from Missiles, it will cause a very brutal backlash. That is unless you limit such weaponry within your games, but that is an alteration to the setting.

I mainly play Robotech, and I let the players have a fairly healthy supply of ammunition (as per the show). Therefore I don't want the players to 1 shot a badguy with one missile, unless they specifically target a weak spot. If I used your rules the Invid would be 1 shotted insta death because of their weak hit location instant death shot. Called Shots are important in Robotech, especially with mini-missiles. But blast radii should not be in affect for direct hits on the same target.

Whereas for me, I see using splash damage as not only more realistic, but makes missiles worth the increased costs to procure. As pointed out previously, people are critical about palladium explosives, citing that they are weak compared to one blast from a common laser rifle (like the game breaking JA-12) and it would take a whole satchel of grenades to take out an opponent. Splash damage rules help nullify that. (ever notice how many wounded vets are missing arms and legs? That's because they effectively wear non-EBA and are hit by things like IEDs.) Unlike Robotech which doesnt even consider cost into missiles (everybody gets armor piercing! AP for everyone!), Rifts players should be considering what they and their merc units are actually buying for battle. This goes both ways, for offense and defense. I believe Shark_Force's concern that non-EBA armors SHOULD be at a distinct disadvantage vs explosives. If you want to protect your whole body, buy more expensive EBA armor or have force field features. Yes, in my games, there are a lot of people who are missing arms and legs (they are now called headhunters and partial borgs) because of explosives and going the less expensive route.

Keep in mind blast radius damage is not as bad as you might think. For one, its only half damage to the other locations of the main hit. Furthermore, do not forget about Roll with Punch, Fall, or Impact which reduces another 50%. It is often overlooked as a defensive game mechanic as presented by Palladium.

I personally treat it as an automatic defensive maneuver since I have not table topped in like 12 years and only play Play-by-Post games where players post actions for all available attacks for the next combat round and there is no way they could anticipate getting hit with explosives in order to Roll with Punch, Fall, Impact, so I just treat it as an automatic movement should the player get hit with one. In table top, it should be used as presented in RUE, but its still available to reduce damage, even when piloting a robot.

For the same reason Kevin incorporated the -10 rule, because combat is...deadly, I see splash damage as a necessity in Rifts combat (and Robotech too). This is obviously only my opinion and until Rifts 2nd Edition comes out with splash damage rules, it is nothing more than a house rule. As presented in every current Palladium game, it does not exist.

[Tiree]

Whereas for me, I see using splash damage as not only more realistic, but makes missiles worth the increased costs to procure. As pointed out previously, people are critical about palladium explosives, citing that they are weak compared to one blast from a common laser rifle (like the game breaking JA-12) and it would take a whole satchel of grenades to take out an opponent. Splash damage rules help nullify that. (ever notice how many wounded vets are missing arms and legs? That's because they effectively wear non-EBA and are hit by things like IEDs.) Unlike Robotech which doesnt even consider cost into missiles (everybody gets armor piercing! AP for everyone!), Rifts players should be considering what they and their merc units are actually buying for battle. This goes both ways, for offense and defense. I believe Shark_Force's concern that non-EBA armors SHOULD be at a distinct disadvantage vs explosives. If you want to protect your whole body, buy more expensive EBA armor or have force field features. Yes, in my games, there are a lot of people who are missing arms and legs (they are now called headhunters and partial borgs) because of explosives and going the less expensive route.

Keep in mind blast radius damage is not as bad as you might think. For one, its only half damage to the other locations of the main hit. Furthermore, do not forget about Roll with Punch, Fall, or Impact which reduces another 50%. It is often overlooked as a defensive game mechanic as presented by Palladium.

I personally treat it as an automatic defensive maneuver since I have not table topped in like 12 years and only play Play-by-Post games where players post actions for all available attacks for the next combat round and there is no way they could anticipate getting hit with explosives in order to Roll with Punch, Fall, Impact, so I just treat it as an automatic movement should the player get hit with one. In table top, it should be used as presented in RUE, but its still available to reduce damage, even when piloting a robot.

For the same reason Kevin incorporated the -10 rule, because combat is...deadly, I see splash damage as a necessity in Rifts combat (and Robotech too). This is obviously only my opinion and until Rifts 2nd Edition comes out with splash damage rules, it is nothing more than a house rule. As presented in every current Palladium game, it does not exist.

Even though I want to agree with you. I believe the rules are strictly put out the way I describe them. I might go for such a rule change if Palladium had consistent Hit Location charts. But they are all over the map. If you want reference look at the VF-1 Valkyrie and the VF/A-6 Alpha and compare. Once you standardize then you have something.

But Palladium is borne from D&D where Hit Point, SDC, and MDC really are not the lifeblood of the character, but also the bruises and scrapes.

[Kagashi]

True. Palladium has been inconsistent on many things, causing the cop-out rule "do what you want" to be their company motto, causing players to figure it out for themselves. When it comes to game mechanics, I wonder why we even still continue to support this company if it were not for the environment of the games they wrote.

[eliakon]

True. Palladium has been inconsistent on many things, causing the cop-out rule "do what you want" to be their company motto, causing players to figure it out for themselves. When it comes to game mechanics, I wonder why we even still continue to support this company if it were not for the environment of the games they wrote.

Probably because its not a cop out. The rules system that Palladium writes is designed to be 'fast and loose' and 'flexible' This isn't supposed to be GURPS where everything is figured out to the last decimal and its all repeatable every time. What you see as 'a cop out' I see as 'allowing for maximum storytelling' When I want something with locked down rigid rules for everything I play GURPS. When I want to do everything by the seat of the pants and make it up as we go, I do Tri Stat. When I want to do something in the middle we do Palladium. The problem is that some people want this game to be a wargaming simulation, or a MMO engine...and its not. It was never intended to be that, and when you try to do that with it, it fails...hard. But that's not the systems fault, it wasn't designed to do that, so of course it will fail at those tasks.

[Zer0 Kay]

RMBp41 "near misses do half damage. The First is by being within the blast radius of the target struck by a direct hit".

No exceptions listed for non-main locations.

I can only see a few situations where all other parts of a bot or vehicle would not take 1/2 the amount the main body does:

1) the robot or vehicle is very big and/or the blast radius of the missile is very small, so that the distance between 2 parts exceeds the diameter of the blast sphere, making it impossible for both to be caught in the radius simultaneously
2) the block-sacrifice tactic mentioned in HU where you can take the main damage with your arms and shield the main body somehow (though I'm not sure if that protects the other parts)

If we extrapolate on the block-sacrifice idea, we might determine that hitting 1 thing creates kind of a shield in the blast-sphere, preventing things behind that from getting hurt...

Like for example, if you did a called shot on a missile port on the front of the robot, and the missile had a blast radius of 10 feet, and the robot was only 5 feet thick, by standard rules, a missile port on the back of the robot would be within the radius... but extrapolating the block-sacrifice idea, the main body should shield the rear port from the expansion of that energy wave.

Show me a single example in any Palladium combat rule examples where damage was delivered to more than the main body? The half damage within the blast radius is for other targets who take that half damage to their main body also.

[Zer0 Kay]

True. Palladium has been inconsistent on many things, causing the cop-out rule "do what you want" to be their company motto, causing players to figure it out for themselves. When it comes to game mechanics, I wonder why we even still continue to support this company if it were not for the environment of the games they wrote.

Dang here comes Godwin's law.
So instead of the cop out rule you'd prefer Jah vol Mein Commandant? Ve haf vays of making you do eczatly as our rulz shtate ozervise ve vill confiscate ze game and melt your dize. Now you go and play by ze rulz!

[Zer0 Kay]

Kagashi maybe you should look at playing Mekton if you want mechanics like that.

[HWalsh]

We are not discussing people, we are discussing hit locations on robots and things.

There are probably a couple living beings out there who have hit-location life-points but for the most part they have a single damage pool with no 'main body' drama to deal with.

Tor, unfortunately that isn't how the rules work, though.

If you start saying: "Area of effects damage all parts of a robot's body simultaneously."
Then they affect all parts of everything simultaneously.

Meaning suddenly anyone who isn't a natural MDC creature, and I do mean anyone, is instantly fragged by just about any decent explosion.

Do you realize how deadly that makes combat? (Especially coming from a guy who seems to think that +1d6 on a Cyber-Knight's Psi-Sword is too much?)

Lets take a CS grunt and a Plasma-Grenade, that explosion instantly neutralizes the CS grunt (if he isn't killed)... If the grenade deals high damage damage, if the grunt is in CA-2 Armor (light armor) and doesn't roll with the explosion he's dead. Even if he DOES roll with the explosion he is completely disarmed, as all of his weapons are vaporized, and he's going to be dead shortly.

I'm going with everyone else here... Explosions damage the Main Body only. Period. That is all they do. Their advantage is that they are self-guided and that gives them strike bonuses that they otherwise would not have.

[Zer0 Kay]

We are not discussing people, we are discussing hit locations on robots and things.

There are probably a couple living beings out there who have hit-location life-points but for the most part they have a single damage pool with no 'main body' drama to deal with.

Tor, unfortunately that isn't how the rules work, though.

If you start saying: "Area of effects damage all parts of a robot's body simultaneously."
Then they affect all parts of everything simultaneously.

Meaning suddenly anyone who isn't a natural MDC creature, and I do mean anyone, is instantly fragged by just about any decent explosion.

Do you realize how deadly that makes combat? (Especially coming from a guy who seems to think that +1d6 on a Cyber-Knight's Psi-Sword is too much?)

Lets take a CS grunt and a Plasma-Grenade, that explosion instantly neutralizes the CS grunt (if he isn't killed)... If the grenade deals high damage damage, if the grunt is in CA-2 Armor (light armor) and doesn't roll with the explosion he's dead. Even if he DOES roll with the explosion he is completely disarmed, as all of his weapons are vaporized, and he's going to be dead shortly.

I'm going with everyone else here... Explosions damage the Main Body only. Period. That is all they do. Their advantage is that they are self-guided and that gives them strike bonuses that they otherwise would not have.

Except mini-missiles which never receive bonuses but if observing the origin of mini-missiles (the Robotech cyclone) then you should receive some WP bonuses to it and be able to make called shots because they were laser guided.

The real advantage of missiles is volleys. 3+ can't be dodged, I mean come one where is there another weapon in PB that does that? A gattling gun fires 2000 bullets in a much quicker succession than a missile launcher could hope to fire off 1/20th that amount and yet you can dodge the entire burst in game.

So to me benefits of missiles in order of my preference.
-volleys (all or nothing, 3+ missiles undodgeable)
-range (compared to other manportable weapons and many heavy weapons they're ridiculous)
-blast radius (its not about being able to hit all over one body but being able to hit multiple targets)
-selective damage (numbers of missiles shot)

[Shark_Force]

Whereas for me, I see using splash damage as not only more realistic, but makes missiles worth the increased costs to procure. As pointed out previously, people are critical about palladium explosives, citing that they are weak compared to one blast from a common laser rifle (like the game breaking JA-12) and it would take a whole satchel of grenades to take out an opponent. Splash damage rules help nullify that. (ever notice how many wounded vets are missing arms and legs? That's because they effectively wear non-EBA and are hit by things like IEDs.) Unlike Robotech which doesnt even consider cost into missiles (everybody gets armor piercing! AP for everyone!), Rifts players should be considering what they and their merc units are actually buying for battle. This goes both ways, for offense and defense. I believe Shark_Force's concern that non-EBA armors SHOULD be at a distinct disadvantage vs explosives. If you want to protect your whole body, buy more expensive EBA armor or have force field features. Yes, in my games, there are a lot of people who are missing arms and legs (they are now called headhunters and partial borgs) because of explosives and going the less expensive route.

Keep in mind blast radius damage is not as bad as you might think. For one, its only half damage to the other locations of the main hit. Furthermore, do not forget about Roll with Punch, Fall, or Impact which reduces another 50%. It is often overlooked as a defensive game mechanic as presented by Palladium.

I personally treat it as an automatic defensive maneuver since I have not table topped in like 12 years and only play Play-by-Post games where players post actions for all available attacks for the next combat round and there is no way they could anticipate getting hit with explosives in order to Roll with Punch, Fall, Impact, so I just treat it as an automatic movement should the player get hit with one. In table top, it should be used as presented in RUE, but its still available to reduce damage, even when piloting a robot.

For the same reason Kevin incorporated the -10 rule, because combat is...deadly, I see splash damage as a necessity in Rifts combat (and Robotech too). This is obviously only my opinion and until Rifts 2nd Edition comes out with splash damage rules, it is nothing more than a house rule. As presented in every current Palladium game, it does not exist.

do you also have lots of warriors with no heads in your games? because an awful lot of armours either don't come with a helmet at all, or have optional helmets. and the ones with optional helmets tend to have helmets that expose most of the face.

additionally, having your arms and legs incinerated off is not likely to lead to armless or legless soldiers. it's likely to lead to dead people. lots and lots of dead people. unless they are part of an organization with extreme amounts of medical resources. pretty much anyone else, you're lucky if there's anyone within a hundred miles with the skills and willingness to treat you, unless you count pouring alcohol down the throat-hole where your face used to be to dull the pain as treatment.

if AOE damage was as devastating as some people seem to want it to be, there would be no such thing as non-environmental armour in the setting, except as something that a few MDC creatures use or in the most desperate of situations. nobody would be manufacturing multiple models of such armour. in fact, there would only be one model available, and it would be the cheapest piece of junk imaginable, likely consisting of nothing more than MDC hides or MDC flexible materials (possibly plates attached to a cloth backing or similar) with a hole for your head to go through that you can wear as a poncho.

because if you're trying to sell it to any sort of military or paramilitary group, you would never go to the amount of effort to design an armour that leaves all of their soldiers severely crippled or dead after 1-2 fights, almost guaranteed.

[guardiandashi]

Whereas for me, I see using splash damage as not only more realistic, but makes missiles worth the increased costs to procure. As pointed out previously, people are critical about palladium explosives, citing that they are weak compared to one blast from a common laser rifle (like the game breaking JA-12) and it would take a whole satchel of grenades to take out an opponent. Splash damage rules help nullify that. (ever notice how many wounded vets are missing arms and legs? That's because they effectively wear non-EBA and are hit by things like IEDs.) Unlike Robotech which doesnt even consider cost into missiles (everybody gets armor piercing! AP for everyone!), Rifts players should be considering what they and their merc units are actually buying for battle. This goes both ways, for offense and defense. I believe Shark_Force's concern that non-EBA armors SHOULD be at a distinct disadvantage vs explosives. If you want to protect your whole body, buy more expensive EBA armor or have force field features. Yes, in my games, there are a lot of people who are missing arms and legs (they are now called headhunters and partial borgs) because of explosives and going the less expensive route.

Keep in mind blast radius damage is not as bad as you might think. For one, its only half damage to the other locations of the main hit. Furthermore, do not forget about Roll with Punch, Fall, or Impact which reduces another 50%. It is often overlooked as a defensive game mechanic as presented by Palladium.

I personally treat it as an automatic defensive maneuver since I have not table topped in like 12 years and only play Play-by-Post games where players post actions for all available attacks for the next combat round and there is no way they could anticipate getting hit with explosives in order to Roll with Punch, Fall, Impact, so I just treat it as an automatic movement should the player get hit with one. In table top, it should be used as presented in RUE, but its still available to reduce damage, even when piloting a robot.

For the same reason Kevin incorporated the -10 rule, because combat is...deadly, I see splash damage as a necessity in Rifts combat (and Robotech too). This is obviously only my opinion and until Rifts 2nd Edition comes out with splash damage rules, it is nothing more than a house rule. As presented in every current Palladium game, it does not exist.

do you also have lots of warriors with no heads in your games? because an awful lot of armours either don't come with a helmet at all, or have optional helmets. and the ones with optional helmets tend to have helmets that expose most of the face.

additionally, having your arms and legs incinerated off is not likely to lead to armless or legless soldiers. it's likely to lead to dead people. lots and lots of dead people. unless they are part of an organization with extreme amounts of medical resources. pretty much anyone else, you're lucky if there's anyone within a hundred miles with the skills and willingness to treat you, unless you count pouring alcohol down the throat-hole where your face used to be to dull the pain as treatment.

if AOE damage was as devastating as some people seem to want it to be, there would be no such thing as non-environmental armour in the setting, except as something that a few MDC creatures use or in the most desperate of situations. nobody would be manufacturing multiple models of such armour. in fact, there would only be one model available, and it would be the cheapest piece of junk imaginable, likely consisting of nothing more than MDC hides or MDC flexible materials (possibly plates attached to a cloth backing or similar) with a hole for your head to go through that you can wear as a poncho.

because if you're trying to sell it to any sort of military or paramilitary group, you would never go to the amount of effort to design an armour that leaves all of their soldiers severely crippled or dead after 1-2 fights, almost guaranteed.

lets use the example of the coalition for a moment, if explosives and I am going to use: grenades, fusion-blocks, and missiles in that category did splash, to multiple locations then every dog boy in the entire army would typically be dead in any encounter where someone brought out the explosives.. and that is not what is said/implied, sure "quoting from lone star pg 26" dog boys, average life span male 32-45 years, a full 64% will die violently in the line of duty. The average number of years in service to the CS (typically starting at age six ) is 26.5
females 45-55 years oldest recorded is 69, but 50 is average, only 20% die violently (of course the ratio is 70% male, 30% female, and 50% of the females go into "support" roles like being mothers, and health care/nurturing roles.. but even then the females have a better survival ratio I think if you think about it...
lets say you start with a group of 1000 "dog boys"
700 males, 300 females
of the 700 males 448 are going to be killed in combat
of the 300 females 150 are going to be diverted to non combat roles, of the 150 going into combat (if the 20% is based on the original 300) 60 are likely to be killed in combat. or roughly 40% of the combat arm females get killed.

if explosives were intended to "splash" to multiple hit locations then considering that dog pack armor is non environmental and typically their only head protection is a skull cap, and gas mask (when necessary) I would expect a LOT!!! more combat fatalities

[Slight001]

Rifts has always used the "rule of cool!" to justify their behavior as everyone knows it's not cool to wear a helmet!

[taalismn]

We are not discussing people, we are discussing hit locations on robots and things.

There are probably a couple living beings out there who have hit-location life-points but for the most part they have a single damage pool with no 'main body' drama to deal with.

Tor, unfortunately that isn't how the rules work, though.

If you start saying: "Area of effects damage all parts of a robot's body simultaneously."
Then they affect all parts of everything simultaneously.

Meaning suddenly anyone who isn't a natural MDC creature, and I do mean anyone, is instantly fragged by just about any decent explosion.

Do you realize how deadly that makes combat? (Especially coming from a guy who seems to think that +1d6 on a Cyber-Knight's Psi-Sword is too much?)

Lets take a CS grunt and a Plasma-Grenade, that explosion instantly neutralizes the CS grunt (if he isn't killed)... If the grenade deals high damage damage, if the grunt is in CA-2 Armor (light armor) and doesn't roll with the explosion he's dead. Even if he DOES roll with the explosion he is completely disarmed, as all of his weapons are vaporized, and he's going to be dead shortly.

.

Wow...and to think one of the early criticisms of Rifts was that (tactical) nuclear weapons had a blast radius so small you could lay naked a few dozen yards away and not have to worry.

But yah, that's GrimDark Rifts, where characters have a lifespan equivalent to fruitflies when up against artillery, and 60 minutes of PC roll-up gets wiped away in a few seconds of combat.

[HWalsh]

We are not discussing people, we are discussing hit locations on robots and things.

There are probably a couple living beings out there who have hit-location life-points but for the most part they have a single damage pool with no 'main body' drama to deal with.

Tor, unfortunately that isn't how the rules work, though.

If you start saying: "Area of effects damage all parts of a robot's body simultaneously."
Then they affect all parts of everything simultaneously.

Meaning suddenly anyone who isn't a natural MDC creature, and I do mean anyone, is instantly fragged by just about any decent explosion.

Do you realize how deadly that makes combat? (Especially coming from a guy who seems to think that +1d6 on a Cyber-Knight's Psi-Sword is too much?)

Lets take a CS grunt and a Plasma-Grenade, that explosion instantly neutralizes the CS grunt (if he isn't killed)... If the grenade deals high damage damage, if the grunt is in CA-2 Armor (light armor) and doesn't roll with the explosion he's dead. Even if he DOES roll with the explosion he is completely disarmed, as all of his weapons are vaporized, and he's going to be dead shortly.

.

Wow...and to think one of the early criticisms of Rifts was that (tactical) nuclear weapons had a blast radius so small you could lay naked a few dozen yards away and not have to worry.

But yah, that's GrimDark Rifts, where characters have a lifespan equivalent to fruitflies when up against artillery, and 60 minutes of PC roll-up gets wiped away in a few seconds of combat.

Sixty minutes? Feh... At least 4 hours or you aren't doing it right.

[kaid]

As odd and non intuitive as it is the rules for missile combat seem pretty clear that the blast radius damage only hits the main body of additional targets so main target takes the full hit but only to main body if a guided missile or specific location if targeted mini missile and other people in the blast radius take damage only to their main body.

While this is logically a bit daffy it helps make the game a bit more survivable and explains some things like the ammo belt on glitter boys. If everything in the blast radius took damage a handful of high explosive or frags would be enough to disable the boom gun on a glitter boy while barely scratching the paint on its armor. The vulnerable ammo feed has very little MDC but is normally such a hard small target its difficult to pin point and destroy via aimed fire. But if aoe weapons hit all parts of vehicles in their radius it would probably take 2 or 3 frag missiles to cut it with no particular aiming needed. Also you run into issues of if everything in the radius takes damage then EBA armor players are using tends to be ineffective and even near missiles tend to get fatal because the hands on most EBA tend to have 10-15 MDC so even at half damage a near plasma mini missile strike would flat kill or if the GM is nice and uses alternate damage rules rendered gloveless/handless.

[Tiree]

Blast Radius - even though it's probably very realistic to implement, can potentially be a TPK affect.

I'm not fond of the whole Hit Locations in general. They are arbitrary, and not fully well thought out. As mentioned blast radius can destroy every little detail when your not trying.

I see the Main Body as more of an "Overall Health" of the vehicle in question.

[Killer Cyborg]

As odd and non intuitive as it is the rules for missile combat seem pretty clear that the blast radius damage only hits the main body of additional targets so main target takes the full hit but only to main body if a guided missile or specific location if targeted mini missile and other people in the blast radius take damage only to their main body.

While this is logically a bit daffy it helps make the game a bit more survivable and explains some things like the ammo belt on glitter boys. If everything in the blast radius took damage a handful of high explosive or frags would be enough to disable the boom gun on a glitter boy while barely scratching the paint on its armor. The vulnerable ammo feed has very little MDC but is normally such a hard small target its difficult to pin point and destroy via aimed fire. But if aoe weapons hit all parts of vehicles in their radius it would probably take 2 or 3 frag missiles to cut it with no particular aiming needed. Also you run into issues of if everything in the radius takes damage then EBA armor players are using tends to be ineffective and even near missiles tend to get fatal because the hands on most EBA tend to have 10-15 MDC so even at half damage a near plasma mini missile strike would flat kill or if the GM is nice and uses alternate damage rules rendered gloveless/handless.

Exactly. It fails as a simulation... but it makes the most sense from a gaming perspective, because it's a LOT less crunchy, and a lot more balanced.

Another issue is that either it would punish any character with MDC/SDC by location versus characters with one damage pool, OR it would lead to a lot of number crunching and guesswork on the part of the GM.
Like if a guy in EBA is hit by a grenade for 10 MD, then he takes 10 MD to the main body, 5 to each arm, 5 to his head, for a total of 25 MD.
If a Dragon is hit by the same grenade for the same damage, then he either just takes 10 MD because he only has one MDC pool, OR he takes 10 MD to the main body, 5 MD to each limb, 5 to his tail, 5 to his head... 5 to each horn...? And what, all the damage comes off of his single damage pool?

It's just not practical, given the rest of the system, to have explosive damage hit stuff other than the main body.

[Phaze]

You could have the Main take the full force, then half damage (only if it is a HE round) spread out randomly to the extremities in groups of two or three. Say, if half damage is 15 MDC, then spread 5 groups of 3 MDC randomly. A hit table should not be that difficult to determine based on size and chance of hitting smallers areas (head on Box Cars, ammo feed on Snake Eyes on a 2D6, legs on 5, 7 and 9, Arms on 6 and 8, everything else gets plugged in). This seems to give it a more real feel, without breaking the game.

Just 2 cents... I could be missing something cause I'm still kinda new to the Palladium RPG System. So be Nice!

[Killer Cyborg]

You could have the Main take the full force, then half damage (only if it is a HE round) spread out randomly to the extremities in groups of two or three. Say, if half damage is 15 MDC, then spread 5 groups of 3 MDC randomly. A hit table should not be that difficult to determine based on size and chance of hitting smallers areas (head on Box Cars, ammo feed on Snake Eyes on a 2D6, legs on 5, 7 and 9, Arms on 6 and 8, everything else gets plugged in). This seems to give it a more real feel, without breaking the game.

Just 2 cents... I could be missing something cause I'm still kinda new to the Palladium RPG System. So be Nice!

You COULD.... But one of the problems people already have with the system is that combat takes too long. Making things more crunchy every time there's an explosion would put off a lot of people.

I like the idea, though, and wouldn't mind playing with it to see how it felt.

[guardiandashi]

You could have the Main take the full force, then half damage (only if it is a HE round) spread out randomly to the extremities in groups of two or three. Say, if half damage is 15 MDC, then spread 5 groups of 3 MDC randomly. A hit table should not be that difficult to determine based on size and chance of hitting smallers areas (head on Box Cars, ammo feed on Snake Eyes on a 2D6, legs on 5, 7 and 9, Arms on 6 and 8, everything else gets plugged in). This seems to give it a more real feel, without breaking the game.

Just 2 cents... I could be missing something cause I'm still kinda new to the Palladium RPG System. So be Nice!

as mentioned by KC you could... but that is not what I was seeing advocated.
what I was seeing advocated is the main body takes the "primary damage" and then all relevant additional locations take ~50% damage

I will use the example of a glitter boy you know big mean and nasty power armor...
it gets hit by a volley of plasma missiles (short range, or mini) that total 200 mdc to the main body. since the glitterboy is only 10ft 5" tall, 4 ft wide and 4 ft deep its all in the 15ft blast radius of the plasma warheads.
so the main body of said undamaged gb takes 200 mdc, and everything else takes 100
the head is reduced to 190 mdc, the boom gun is reduced to 75, the hands are burned off, the arms are deduced to 170mdc the legs are reduced to 350 and of course the main body is now 570 (reinforce pilot compartment was not damaged) so the pilot is fine... but the gb has to flee because even though the boom gun is not destroyed ... it doesn't have a hand to pull the trigger any more.. and that was just 1 attack.

[kaid]

It gets even more crunchy when if you apply blast radius to larger vehicles/creatures. Say you hit an NG blocker on the main body. The height of the mech is nearly 30 feet tall and about 15 or 20 feet wide. How do you determine where on the main body the strike hit to try to calculate what parts of the mech could be effected. It is not realistic but for game play reasons the ruling makes a lot of sense.

[Alrik Vas]

There are d12's that are made with hit locations instead of numbers. You could make strike location random for missiles and always have main body take half, unless it was the area struck.

[Zer0 Kay]

There are d12's that are made with hit locations instead of numbers. You could make strike location random for missiles and always have main body take half, unless it was the area struck.

random, isn't very guided is it? Maybe they figure they're all radar guided and going for center of the largest radar return. Thermal would go for exhaust or engines, video would go for center of target. Most detonate on proximity not on contact. Laser seeks the dot. Main body makes more sense than random... Unless they're rockets and not missiles.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The only missile I can think of that only does damage to the target would be one with a faulty warhead and the missile rammed the target.....interesting enough this does more damage to the target then if the warhead was not a dud.

Or a missile that the avionics were specially designed to ram the target.

[Zer0 Kay]

The only missile I can think of that only does damage to the target would be one with a faulty warhead and the missile rammed the target.....interesting enough this does more damage to the target then if the warhead was not a dud.

Or a missile that the avionics were specially designed to ram the target.

Uh... Cruise missiles are programmed, sometimes to detonate after penetration.
The RPG, more of a rocket than a grenade, uses a shaped charge. Many x vs. Ground weapons detonate on impact instead of proximity. Most x vs. Air detonate by proximity or impact, so there is still a chance with a near miss. I don't think there is such a thing as an explosive device without a blast radius though, even the claymour which has a "toward enemy" side will kill someone close behind it.

[Zer0 Kay]

The only missile I can think of that only does damage to the target would be one with a faulty warhead and the missile rammed the target.....interesting enough this does more damage to the target then if the warhead was not a dud.

Or a missile that the avionics were specially designed to ram the target.

I disagree a missile exploding will cause more damage to the object its hitting then impact and penetration will. The chance of taking out anything critical with a missile acting like a k/ep is far less.

[Alrik Vas]

There are d12's that are made with hit locations instead of numbers. You could make strike location random for missiles and always have main body take half, unless it was the area struck.

random, isn't very guided is it? Maybe they figure they're all radar guided and going for center of the largest radar return. Thermal would go for exhaust or engines, video would go for center of target. Most detonate on proximity not on contact. Laser seeks the dot. Main body makes more sense than random... Unless they're rockets and not missiles.

blah, i was just throwing crap out there. Though something on the move has a chance of being hit in an unintended location in my opinion. Though if you've got evidence to the contrary i'm all ears. Like if something with moving parts in motion (like a large, humanoid shaped robot) running as it puts fire down has a missile shot at it as it runs over varying elevation, wouldn't there be a chance for the guided missile to strike a part of it that wasn't it's intended target?

[Zer0 Kay]

There are d12's that are made with hit locations instead of numbers. You could make strike location random for missiles and always have main body take half, unless it was the area struck.

random, isn't very guided is it? Maybe they figure they're all radar guided and going for center of the largest radar return. Thermal would go for exhaust or engines, video would go for center of target. Most detonate on proximity not on contact. Laser seeks the dot. Main body makes more sense than random... Unless they're rockets and not missiles.

blah, i was just throwing crap out there. Though something on the move has a chance of being hit in an unintended location in my opinion. Though if you've got evidence to the contrary i'm all ears. Like if something with moving parts in motion (like a large, humanoid shaped robot) running as it puts fire down has a missile shot at it as it runs over varying elevation, wouldn't there be a chance for the guided missile to strike a part of it that wasn't it's intended target?

So what your saying is that it MISSED its intended target? So maybe a missile with a +3 hits but only by 3, so within the bonus, maybe that could be the chance a missile has to hit the object but not its target? So a volley of three missiles your roll a 6 but need an 8 to hit. Fortunately its a smart missile so it has a +5, you hit but it isn't the main body, roll random limb. Maybe it should also have on the random limb table where it lost lock on and found a different target roll for deviation... Oh wait mow were going from Battletech to who knows what to Warhammer 40K.

[Alrik Vas]

Nothing wrong with goin' a little crazy go nuts university if it makes the game fun.

[Tor]

armours that don't even *have* a helmet (and in some extreme cases, such as millenium leaf armour, don't even provide any protection to the sides of the torso, arms, or legs at all) are also quite common.

When I see stuff like that, I figure it ought to have an AR similar to cyber-armor or the MDC clothing introduced in NGR. But it doesn't... so we might figure that it protects the whole body (no AR issues) due to some kinda magical aura from the leaf.

the explosion rule that explosions hit everywhere essentially means that any non-environmental body armour is worthless.

Not being able to protect you from a missile doesn't make armor worthless. It just means missiles are very valuable.

the moment you're in an explosion, which is neither all that expensive nor all that uncommon.

the RMB featured a couple of weapons with underslung grenade launchers, and while mini-missiles are pretty expensive for what they do, grenades are pretty inexpensive actually.[/quote]
Grenade launchers, much like missile launchers, are weapons that aren't going to be appearing everywhere. It's doubtful they would be allowed within towns, for example.

They would be super-cool out in the wilderness, sure...

But if you're going around in the wilderness, perhaps you should wear full-body armor or go in a vehicle or something like that.

Or... y'know, a guy with a nade launcher might hold non-armored guys hostage and they could co-operate with them, lay down arms, etc.

never mind the various weapons that have a explosions that hit a small area (1-3 foot radius sounds small, but a 3' radius on your torso will hit most of your body except for the feet) like triax pump guns or bursts from other weapons with explosive rounds.

This means your helmet will take some damage, yup. There are advantages to using non-E-clip weapons, this'd be one.

you're acting like this *only* matters for explosives that are already hitting the main body of something.

No I believe I mentioned stuff like missiles hitting legs.

what about explosives that hit someone else (or that miss and hit the ground next to you) and you're caught in the splash?

That depends on the blast radius and the distance someone is leaping when they dodge or how far off the GM rules someone's aim is when they miss.

the half damage there is also applied to your main body, but if AOE hits all locations equally, you've got basically half your actual MDC against those effects.

If you can't leap totally clear, a roll with impact would be a good idea then.

what about magic or other effects that hit an area for the same amount of damage? you've got basically half MDC (or none, if you're not in environmental armour) against all effects of that nature. same with, say, a flamethrower.

That makes those spells pretty cool then.

anyone without a forcefield and an AOE attack is at a severe disadvantage

In real warfare, this would be true, I don't see the problem. Of course, there are disadvantages to lacking non-forcefield armor and non-AoE weapons too, since they have unique value as well.

non-environmental body armours are basically worthless and should be nearly impossible to sell

Just like how SDC armor and SDC weapons are basically worthless? Or SDC vehicles? They still have worth, not everyone designs what they get solely based on surviving artillery.

I mean, look at IRL armor that cops and army use... does it protect against grenades? But it's still used.

I'm having trouble figuring out whether or not we are disagreeing about anything. Correct me if I'm wrong but what we seem to agreee on is:
1) missiles can be aimed at the main body (the default target)
2) missiles can be aimed at other locations via called shots

Guardiandashi already made the point.

Usually when someone is going over what multiple parties agree on, this involves bringing up already-introduced ideas, I am confused at feeling criticized as if I were claiming to introduce new points here.

can't make called shots with guided missiles, they always strike the main body. Mini-Missiles tend to not be guided and thus can strike other targets.

Guided or smart?

there are man portable mini-missile launchers that can fire 4 or more missiles at a target (See Black Market Sourcebook)

That's new stuff, and black market stuff at that. Power creep's to be expected. Originally you had a 1-shot mini-missile launcher. If we're going to look at power creep in later books then we may as well look at that super-rifle in South America.

if a player (in a PA, Robot, or anything with Hit Locations) also deals with Splash Damage from Missiles, it will cause a very brutal backlash. That is unless you limit such weaponry within your games, but that is an alteration to the setting.

Limiting missiles is not an alteration to the setting, it can be viewed as an interpretation of it. Consider how certain weapons are harder to find than others IRL. Obvious Rifts is less regulated, but aside from cost, it's likely that many market-places will limit the sale of dangerous area-effect weaponry, or prohibit its entry into cities.

I don't want the players to 1 shot a badguy with one missile, unless they specifically target a weak spot. If I used your rules the Invid would be 1 shotted insta death because of their weak hit location instant death shot. Called Shots are important in Robotech, especially with mini-missiles. But blast radii should not be in affect for direct hits on the same target.

There's always dodging a single missile or shooting down a volley with 1 of your missiles.

Show me a single example in any Palladium combat rule examples where damage was delivered to more than the main body? The half damage within the blast radius is for other targets who take that half damage to their main body also.

Palladium combat writeups aren't exactly chock full of missile-use examples.

I recall in RMB that in the instance missiles were fired at a fleeing hover-car, the whole thing got blown up so there wouldn't have been any point in calculating secondary areas when the main wasn't around to hold them together.

If you start saying: "Area of effects damage all parts of a robot's body simultaneously."

That isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that it should damage other locations if they are within the blast radius and not shielded by other parts. The shaping of an expanding sphere and cover is pretty complicated but it would result in only some locations taking it.

Then they affect all parts of everything simultaneously.

Robot rules don't exactly extend to rules for other things, otherwise arm-block-sacrifice would be something anyone could do instead of just bots.

Meaning suddenly anyone who isn't a natural MDC creature, and I do mean anyone, is instantly fragged by just about any decent explosion.

You forget high-SDC guys like Amaki or cool-power guys like Prometheans, and any plain SDC human can avoid damage sphere deaths by using environmental armor.

Do you realize how deadly that makes combat? (Especially coming from a guy who seems to think that +1d6 on a Cyber-Knight's Psi-Sword is too much?)

Please do not bring up my opinions on other discussions, especially if you are going to misrepresent them.

Lets take a CS grunt and a Plasma-Grenade, that explosion instantly neutralizes the CS grunt (if he isn't killed)... If the grenade deals high damage damage, if the grunt is in CA-2 Armor (light armor) and doesn't roll with the explosion he's dead. Even if he DOES roll w're taith the explosion he is completely disarmed, as all of his weapons are vaporized, and he's going to be dead shortly.

Grenades are dangerous, not cute props, problem?

Can I have some page numbers for what nade and what armor you're talking about here? Also why are you mad that a grunt should have to roll with a grenade blast?

[Blue_Lion]

There are d12's that are made with hit locations instead of numbers. You could make strike location random for missiles and always have main body take half, unless it was the area struck.

Congrats you just killed all non mdc Inf with a single plasma missile with that rule (and a ley line walker with any non main body hit by a missile). Also a D 12 does not acutely cover hit chance by location because it does not account for body parts size.

Main body is used not because it is accurate to simulate damage but because it -
A fast
B improves PC survivability
C is compatible with MDC creatures that do not have MDC by locations and
D compatible with spells like armor of Ithan.

[Zer0 Kay]

I'm gonna do what you, Tor, may call a HWalsh here. Missiles hit the main body. Main body does not automatically equal torso. Main body is the area that when depleted means the machine won't function anymore and normally can't be repaired after its depleted. Now I don't expect you to understand Palladium books history, since you thought PFRPG came out after Rifts, but they try to streamline combat. If each time you use a missile you have to figure out armor angles and how the blast wave will effect limbs, you've just done the opposite. Guided missiles can not be aimed at a called ahot, smart missiles are guided missiles. RT mini-missiles arent guided per PB rules yet source material shows cyclones using targeting systems and lock on meaning they are guided but it is by a little red dot which should be able to be used to make called shots. How do they allow a missile to to make called shots? Make it unguided.

[guardiandashi]

I'm gonna do what you, Tor, may call a HWalsh here. Missiles hit the main body. Main body does not automatically equal torso. Main body is the area that when depleted means the machine won't function anymore and normally can't be repaired after its depleted. Now I don't expect you to understand Palladium books history, since you thought PFRPG came out after Rifts, but they try to streamline combat. If each time you use a missile you have to figure out armor angles and how the blast wave will effect limbs, you've just done the opposite. Guided missiles can not be aimed at a called ahot, smart missiles are guided missiles. RT mini-missiles arent guided per PB rules yet source material shows cyclones using targeting systems and lock on meaning they are guided but it is by a little red dot which should be able to be used to make called shots. How do they allow a missile to to make called shots? Make it unguided.

this is where I am going to come back with a "definition" that works for ME to clarify my perception of the intent even if its not directly in line with RAW (Rules As Written)

there are multiple "levels" of weapon guidance
at the top or "highest" level are AI's, drones, and smart bombs.
these can "see", analyze the situation and react to changing conditions. Obviously an AI or a drone is going to in general be "smarter" than a smart bomb weapon as in many cases they could even carry and fire said smart bombs if built into a vehicle.
a guided missile is in many ways better defined as a SELF guided weapon, or to use more current terms a Fire and Forget weapon. Once it is deployed the "firing unit" can ignore it as the only interaction they MAY have is to send an abort or self destruct code, if it is determined that it was launched at a friendly target after launch.

the so called unguided missiles can further be defined into several additional categories:
Semi-guided munitions which I am going to define as requiring outside interactions for targeting assistance (this would include things like:
wire guided munitions, laser homing munitions and similar.
preprogramed munitions they don't track per se what they do is go to a set of waypoints or coordinates designate prior to deployment (launch) and deploy their payload. (this covers things like swarm launchers and similar)
and the last category truly unguided munitions like rockets they do not maneuver and have either timed or impact fuses.

when you start adding those categories it resolves (at least for me) the ambiguities other have brought up in the thread about targeting of locations by "unguided" missiles

so most mini-missiles would fall into the unguided /semi guided categories where they just go where they are directed but don't "aim themselves" they rely on the user to aim them.