Missiles - Split from Ulti-Max topic

[HWalsh]

I'm gonna do what you, Tor, may call a HWalsh here.

?

Pulling an HWalsh?

*blink*

Uh...

I guess that is a compliment?

[HWalsh]

Can I have some page numbers for what nade and what armor you're talking about here? Also why are you mad that a grunt should have to roll with a grenade blast?

Sure.

RUE pg. 260
Plasma Grenade, 6d6 MDC

RUE pg. 261
CA-2 Light Body Armor
Helmet 35
Arms (2) 15
Legs (2) 24
Main Body 50

Weapons (Taken from the Coalition Grunt, RUE pg 233)...

Energy Rifle of Choice
Energy Pistol of Choice

Lets assume, since most weapons don't give the M.D.C. of the weapon, that the Coalition Grunt here is armed with a C-212. (The C-212's M.D. is found under the CV-213 Robot Variable Laser Rifle (RUE pg. 255) and I am using that because it states that the C-212 and the CV-213 are basically the same weapon.)

So, the C-212 has 5 M.D.C.

----

Ahem...

So the Coalition Grunt gets hit by the explosion from a Plasma grenade 6d6 M.D.C. which, on average, will do around 18 damage. (That assumes an average of 3 per die.)

The Grunt rolls with impact, reducing that damage to 9... That still destroys every weapon he can possibly have on him... Since that is almost twice the M.D.C. of the standard infantry rifle of the CS. Meaning a grenade, even against a HEAVILY ARMORED CS Soldier pretty much renders him unable to further damage any enemy in M.D.C. armor. This doesn't make grenades "dangerous" that makes them "an instant I-Win button."

Lets look at other grenades...

Fragmentation - 2d6 M.D.

Average of 6 damage - Without a roll with impact, all weapons destroyed. Even with a roll with damage the weapon is severely damaged. (From the weakest grenade mind you. If the grenade rolls high, say a 10, then it destroys all weapons.)

Light High Explosive - 3d6 M.D.

Average of 9 damage - Without a roll with impact, all weapons destroyed. Even with a roll with damage the weapon is severely damaged, if not destroyed. (If the damage is a 10, the weapons are destroyed.)

Heavy High Explosive - 4d6 M.D.

The weapon is almost certainly destroyed, with, or without a roll with impact. (Average damage 12.)

-----

Now as to the state of the CS soldier...

With the plasma-grenade

18 damage, in this case, without a successful roll with impact, on a Plasma-Grenade means dead. With even below average damage. (15 to the arm, 3 to the S.D.C. or H.P. underneath.) That is instant death to almost any non-MDC creature.

Now, bear in mind, with the highest possible roll (36) the CS Grunt is dead, roll with impact or not, in this case, as in the above, that would be 18 damage no matter what which is an instant kill.

With the Frag Grenade?

The CS Soldier, in this case will live, providing he has any weapons left he could continue to fight.

With the Light High Explosive?

The CS Soldier, could theoretically outright die, on a high damage roll, if he didn't roll with it, but it is unlikely.

With the Heavy High Explosive?

On a slightly higher than average roll the CS Solider is dead if he doesn't roll with it.

Why are they dead?

Because the blast radius reaches the arm. The weakest point on M.D. body armor. The reason the game does not allow splash damage to hit limbs is specifically because of the arm and leg body armor. (And lord forbid what this means for 'Borgs...)

((For those that don't know, the feet of a Combat Cyborg only has between 13 and 20 M.D.C. - RUE pg. 46 so, in this case, the ultimate 'Borg killer is a plasma grenade. One of those suckers and the 'Borg ain't walking anywhere anymore.))

-----

In all seriousness Tor, that is the problem here, your view of this is absolutely game breaking. I don't think they intended grenades to be more damaging than most other weapons... Considering for the cost of 1 Energy Rifle you can actually get a good number of grenades and just murder people [i]en masse[/i[ as it were.

Or to point out the other flaw... The ridiculous damage this amounts to...

If the target takes a grenade to the chest... Here is the actual damage the grenade would deal out:

108 M.D.C. (On an average roll with a Plasma) 18 to the head, 18 to the right arm, 18 to the left arm, 18 to the chest, 18 to the right leg, 18 to the left leg. (Which, if it did hit each location would be the damage it should do to energy shields as each location is hit...) Up to 216 damage... Forget a Boom Gun! Give me a freaking burst-fire grenade launcher! (3 grenades, up to 648 M.D. per burst! YES PLEASE!) On top of that, I can't burst fire and called shot, but with grenades... I don't have to!

Heck... Glitterboys are a threat no more at that point! 2 Grenade Launcher bursts, 6 grenades, and poof... Poor lil' Glitterboy has no hands left. No hands... No boom gun. Free Quebec wouldn't fear potential clashes with the CS, they'd fear any army that found out how to mass produce plasma grenades. Cheaper than most weapons, much more effective, and can neutralize multiple Glitterboys at once.

-----

Again, the problem with allowing explosions to hit multiple body parts on the same target is, as illustrated, the potential abuse of it. It is how it is, only damaging the Main Body, because of balance.

[Tor]

I'm gonna do what you, Tor, may call a HWalsh here.

I'm not sure what this means.

Missiles hit the main body.

I find this expression inadequately detailed.

Like any strike, missiles default on a normal attack to aim at the main body.

The question is, when things have hit locations, can called shots be made on them, and what the effect of blast radius is on hit locations. Your expression does not detail that.

Main body does not automatically equal torso.

I suppose not in all cases, though for the most part that's the bulk of what the idea usually means and is a good enough assumption for humanoid robots. I have seen cases where the main body is other parts though, particularly on some monsters or oddly shaped bots.

Main body is the area that when depleted means the machine won't function anymore and normally can't be repaired after its depleted.

Not sure where you get the idea it's not possible to repair. Stops functioning usually, sure (again, some exceptions) but unless something has some kinda self-destruct, or death-boom, repairs should still be pretty feasible. Though getting it to a repair shop when it can't move on it's own could require some assistance.

I don't expect you to understand Palladium books history, since you thought PFRPG came out after Rifts

It did, Rifts came out around 1990, PFRPG (the 2nd Edition of PRPG) came out around 1995. If there's anything I might be wrong about the order it might be whether PF2 or HU2 came out first.

I'm of the stance that the fantasy precursor to Rifts out to be called by its proper title of 'The Palladium Role-Playing Game' (or PRPG) since 'Fantasy' only got added into the title later.

If each time you use a missile you have to figure out armor angles and how the blast wave will effect limbs, you've just done the opposite.

Missiles have a tendency to complicate combat anyway. Much of the time when battles occur a GM may not necessarily know the exact distance apart everyone is, and AoE effects require that kind of math.

As for blast wave guarding, it wouldn't have to be done every attack, once you figured it out for 1 spot you'd know how to apply it the next time, and it's some common-sense stuff you can pretty much tell just by looking at a picture of the robot and what parts have a direct line-of-sight to each other.

Guided missiles can not be aimed at a called ahot, smart missiles are guided missiles.

Smart missiles are a special enhanced form of guided missile if that's what you mean...

Did you mean 'be an aimed or called shot' or something? Where's this bit about only UNguided missiles being aimable or callable?

RT mini-missiles arent guided per PB rules yet source material shows cyclones using targeting systems and lock on meaning they are guided but it is by a little red dot which should be able to be used to make called shots. How do they allow a missile to to make called shots? Make it unguided.

If being unguided is required to make called shots, then I assume the mysterious mini-missiles of the Glitter-Boy Killer must be like that too since they are described as being used to make called shots on Boom Guns. My printing forgot to give them stats in the weapons list even though they're clearly mentioned in the description and depicted in the image, hopefully they fixed that later.

RUE pg. 260 Plasma Grenade, 6d6 MDC
RUE pg. 261 CA-2 Light Body Armor
Helmet 35
Arms (2) 15
Legs (2) 24
Main Body 50

Light body armor probably isn't the best defense against grenades or heavy weapons like plasma. Is it horrid if a limb or two is lost?

It does occur to me though, that rather than applying 1/2 dmg to ALL secondary locations that it might be cooler to just roll on the random hit charts introduced in CB1.

So, the C-212 has 5 M.D.C.

That seems like an inferior weapon prone to getting damaged. I remember that CB1 gave MDC stats for many of the RMB weapons and it was something along the lines of 10 for pistols and 20 for rifles, with some better ones like the Juicer even getting 50.

6d6 M.D.C. which, on average, will do around 18 damage. (That assumes an average of 3 per die.)

It's 3.5, or 7 per 2d6, so 6d6 averages at 21, actually better supporting your argument. So when rolled with, that's 10 MD.

that damage to 9... That still destroys every weapon he can possibly have on him...

I'm not sure how a puny 5 MDC weapon is suddenly 'every weapon he could possible have'. Did RUE nerf the MDC of all guns suddenly?

The average rolled-with-plasma 10 MD would destroy all his pistols, but his rifle should survive.

That's also if he was the direct target and didn't dodge it. If he dodged it and also rolled he would take 1/4, or merely 5 MDC.

almost twice the M.D.C. of the standard infantry rifle of the CS.

I'll have to double-check the sourcebooks, but if the old rifles had 20 and the new ones have 5, they sure don't make them like they used to. Reason to favor the older models I guess. If Dog Boys had decent enough armor to survive nades they'd be laughing straight to the bank about now.

a grenade, even against a HEAVILY ARMORED CS Soldier pretty much renders him unable to further damage any enemy in M.D.C. armor.

What about holstered weapons or weapons strapped to the back? I'm not sure how much MDC holsters have, but I assume that might protect weapons to some degree. If they don't make MDC holsters then I want to see all the strapped-on backup guns fall off CS soldiers when they walk through a Circle of Flame. Using the shaping idea I proposed, a grenade hitting the front of a soldier ought to protect the back (and any weapons hung on the back) due to shaping the blast sphere.

This doesn't make grenades "dangerous" that makes them "an instant I-Win button."

Not really, grenades limit you in close range since you might get caught in your own attack, and long-range you can't throw them very far so it's moreso grenade LAUNCHERS that create a huge advantage.

Another fun thing is that since grenades are projectiles, it should be possible to parry them or grab them and perhaps throw them back in time before they explode. I don't think rules have addressed this possibility in detail, but the strike roll needed to grab after a parry (only mentioned in N&SS, something ANYONE can do, even those without combat skills) isn't exceedingly high.

Fragmentation - 2d6 M.D. Average of 6 damage - Without a roll with impact, all weapons destroyed. Even with a roll with damage the weapon is severely damaged. (From the weakest grenade mind you. If the grenade rolls high, say a 10, then it destroys all weapons.)

I'm thinking you ought to reconsider this 'all weapons have 5 MDC' stance.

18 damage, in this case, without a successful roll with impact, on a Plasma-Grenade means dead. With even below average damage. (15 to the arm, 3 to the S.D.C. or H.P. underneath.) That is instant death to almost any non-MDC creature.

Getting MD inflicted to a limb doesn't necessarily kill you, more realistically it shears it off.

I mean heck, RUE even introduced ways that SDC creatures can survive MD to the main body.

Grenades being made wicked-evil using a 'radius splash to most points' kinda view would be pretty cool and not setting breaking. It would put the fear in people and policy could adapt to it.

For example, I imagine the CS would want to heavily investigate the trafficking of grenades due to the dangers they pose, and strongly restrict their importing into cities and things.

I imagine the Black Market of the burbs would have similar considerations, and probably see this as a mutually beneficial idea, because the mass destruction caused by explosives would frequently be bad for business and their own health.

the feet of a Combat Cyborg only has between 13 and 20 M.D.C. - RUE pg. 46 so, in this case, the ultimate 'Borg killer is a plasma grenade. One of those suckers and the 'Borg ain't walking anywhere anymore.))

Hm, wouldn't a flame eruption by a burster from underneath a borg also be similarly effective?

your view of this is absolutely game breaking. I don't think they intended grenades to be more damaging than most other weapons... Considering for the cost of 1 Energy Rifle you can actually get a good number of grenades and just murder people [i]en masse[/i[ as it were.

It's not game-breaking if people react realistically to grenades and try to influence where they go, kind of like how we do IRL.

Weapons have more value than their raw ability to mass-murder people in a single action. Consider how much more expensive it is to buy a sniper rifle compared to making a molotov cocktail. A lot of people might rather only kill some targets in particular, like if their target is closeby to a valued asset or ally.

Range is a major factor with thrown grenades, if someone was merely whipping nades around, they could be killed before they got within throwing distance with a rifle.

Is there a particular grenade-launching gun you'd like to weigh up against an energy weapon in tactical use and compared value?

Glitterboys are a threat no more at that point! 2 Grenade Launcher bursts, 6 grenades, and poof... Poor lil' Glitterboy has no hands left. No hands... No boom gun. Free Quebec wouldn't fear potential clashes with the CS, they'd fear any army that found out how to mass produce plasma grenades. Cheaper than most weapons, much more effective, and can neutralize multiple Glitterboys at once.

Triax Glitter-Boys are hands-free the vulnerability of the hands to area-affect weapons could explain why Quebec wanted some of the newer models in their trade agreement with the NGR.

Tell me though: how do you plan to get close enough to lob a nade (or even shoot one) before a boom gun takes out the nadier? Glitter-Boys are artillery, it's not horrible for there to be a downside to being caught at close range in one.

Spoiler:

I think I'm going to have to play chess against myself here.

The best argument I can see for secondary locations not taking AoE damage is actually the scenario I cited on page 1 of this thread, the example of the UAR-1 taking on the bandits.

I mentioned the hovercar getting vaped by missiles (turns out these were medium ranged) but I had forgot there was actually a second instance of missiles being used, one which strongly contradicts my point of view and now makes me feel like more of a fence-sitter.

Prior to nuking the hover-car, the UAR-1 shoots a volley of fragmentation missiles (short-range) at the SAMAS-wearing bandit. Since they are huge-radius frags, this ought to have hit the entire span of the SAMAS, or at least the front side of it...

Although the damage inflicted by the volley was not enough to destroy the SAMAS, half of the damage exceeds the MDC of both the wings and the jets, so if my logic held, the SAMAS should have been crippled and something like that would've been worth mentioning, yet that wasn't mentioned at all in the example.

So the RMB example actually opposes my PoV, and in introducing it I sowed the seeds, and in re-reading it, reaped the grain, of my own demise.

Does anyone know if they kept this combat scenario in RUE or if they replaced it with a different one?

[Blue_Lion]

I'm gonna do what you, Tor, may call a HWalsh here.

I'm not sure what this means.

Missiles hit the main body.

I find this expression inadequately detailed.

Like any strike, missiles default on a normal attack to aim at the main body.

The question is, when things have hit locations, can called shots be made on them, and what the effect of blast radius is on hit locations. Your expression does not detail that.

Main body does not automatically equal torso.

I suppose not in all cases, though for the most part that's the bulk of what the idea usually means and is a good enough assumption for humanoid robots. I have seen cases where the main body is other parts though, particularly on some monsters or oddly shaped bots.

Main body is the area that when depleted means the machine won't function anymore and normally can't be repaired after its depleted.

Not sure where you get the idea it's not possible to repair. Stops functioning usually, sure (again, some exceptions) but unless something has some kinda self-destruct, or death-boom, repairs should still be pretty feasible. Though getting it to a repair shop when it can't move on it's own could require some assistance.

I don't expect you to understand Palladium books history, since you thought PFRPG came out after Rifts

It did, Rifts came out around 1990, PFRPG (the 2nd Edition of PRPG) came out around 1995. If there's anything I might be wrong about the order it might be whether PF2 or HU2 came out first.

I'm of the stance that the fantasy precursor to Rifts out to be called by its proper title of 'The Palladium Role-Playing Game' (or PRPG) since 'Fantasy' only got added into the title later.

If each time you use a missile you have to figure out armor angles and how the blast wave will effect limbs, you've just done the opposite.

Missiles have a tendency to complicate combat anyway. Much of the time when battles occur a GM may not necessarily know the exact distance apart everyone is, and AoE effects require that kind of math.

As for blast wave guarding, it wouldn't have to be done every attack, once you figured it out for 1 spot you'd know how to apply it the next time, and it's some common-sense stuff you can pretty much tell just by looking at a picture of the robot and what parts have a direct line-of-sight to each other.

Guided missiles can not be aimed at a called ahot, smart missiles are guided missiles.

Smart missiles are a special enhanced form of guided missile if that's what you mean...

Did you mean 'be an aimed or called shot' or something? Where's this bit about only UNguided missiles being aimable or callable?

RT mini-missiles arent guided per PB rules yet source material shows cyclones using targeting systems and lock on meaning they are guided but it is by a little red dot which should be able to be used to make called shots. How do they allow a missile to to make called shots? Make it unguided.

If being unguided is required to make called shots, then I assume the mysterious mini-missiles of the Glitter-Boy Killer must be like that too since they are described as being used to make called shots on Boom Guns. My printing forgot to give them stats in the weapons list even though they're clearly mentioned in the description and depicted in the image, hopefully they fixed that later.

RUE pg. 260 Plasma Grenade, 6d6 MDC
RUE pg. 261 CA-2 Light Body Armor
Helmet 35
Arms (2) 15
Legs (2) 24
Main Body 50

Light body armor probably isn't the best defense against grenades or heavy weapons like plasma. Is it horrid if a limb or two is lost?

It does occur to me though, that rather than applying 1/2 dmg to ALL secondary locations that it might be cooler to just roll on the random hit charts introduced in CB1.

So, the C-212 has 5 M.D.C.

That seems like an inferior weapon prone to getting damaged. I remember that CB1 gave MDC stats for many of the RMB weapons and it was something along the lines of 10 for pistols and 20 for rifles, with some better ones like the Juicer even getting 50.

6d6 M.D.C. which, on average, will do around 18 damage. (That assumes an average of 3 per die.)

It's 3.5, or 7 per 2d6, so 6d6 averages at 21, actually better supporting your argument. So when rolled with, that's 10 MD.

that damage to 9... That still destroys every weapon he can possibly have on him...

I'm not sure how a puny 5 MDC weapon is suddenly 'every weapon he could possible have'. Did RUE nerf the MDC of all guns suddenly?

The average rolled-with-plasma 10 MD would destroy all his pistols, but his rifle should survive.

That's also if he was the direct target and didn't dodge it. If he dodged it and also rolled he would take 1/4, or merely 5 MDC.

almost twice the M.D.C. of the standard infantry rifle of the CS.

I'll have to double-check the sourcebooks, but if the old rifles had 20 and the new ones have 5, they sure don't make them like they used to. Reason to favor the older models I guess. If Dog Boys had decent enough armor to survive nades they'd be laughing straight to the bank about now.

a grenade, even against a HEAVILY ARMORED CS Soldier pretty much renders him unable to further damage any enemy in M.D.C. armor.

What about holstered weapons or weapons strapped to the back? I'm not sure how much MDC holsters have, but I assume that might protect weapons to some degree. If they don't make MDC holsters then I want to see all the strapped-on backup guns fall off CS soldiers when they walk through a Circle of Flame. Using the shaping idea I proposed, a grenade hitting the front of a soldier ought to protect the back (and any weapons hung on the back) due to shaping the blast sphere.

This doesn't make grenades "dangerous" that makes them "an instant I-Win button."

Not really, grenades limit you in close range since you might get caught in your own attack, and long-range you can't throw them very far so it's moreso grenade LAUNCHERS that create a huge advantage.

Another fun thing is that since grenades are projectiles, it should be possible to parry them or grab them and perhaps throw them back in time before they explode. I don't think rules have addressed this possibility in detail, but the strike roll needed to grab after a parry (only mentioned in N&SS, something ANYONE can do, even those without combat skills) isn't exceedingly high.

Fragmentation - 2d6 M.D. Average of 6 damage - Without a roll with impact, all weapons destroyed. Even with a roll with damage the weapon is severely damaged. (From the weakest grenade mind you. If the grenade rolls high, say a 10, then it destroys all weapons.)

I'm thinking you ought to reconsider this 'all weapons have 5 MDC' stance.

18 damage, in this case, without a successful roll with impact, on a Plasma-Grenade means dead. With even below average damage. (15 to the arm, 3 to the S.D.C. or H.P. underneath.) That is instant death to almost any non-MDC creature.

Getting MD inflicted to a limb doesn't necessarily kill you, more realistically it shears it off.

I mean heck, RUE even introduced ways that SDC creatures can survive MD to the main body.

Grenades being made wicked-evil using a 'radius splash to most points' kinda view would be pretty cool and not setting breaking. It would put the fear in people and policy could adapt to it.

For example, I imagine the CS would want to heavily investigate the trafficking of grenades due to the dangers they pose, and strongly restrict their importing into cities and things.

I imagine the Black Market of the burbs would have similar considerations, and probably see this as a mutually beneficial idea, because the mass destruction caused by explosives would frequently be bad for business and their own health.

the feet of a Combat Cyborg only has between 13 and 20 M.D.C. - RUE pg. 46 so, in this case, the ultimate 'Borg killer is a plasma grenade. One of those suckers and the 'Borg ain't walking anywhere anymore.))

Hm, wouldn't a flame eruption by a burster from underneath a borg also be similarly effective?

your view of this is absolutely game breaking. I don't think they intended grenades to be more damaging than most other weapons... Considering for the cost of 1 Energy Rifle you can actually get a good number of grenades and just murder people [i]en masse[/i[ as it were.

It's not game-breaking if people react realistically to grenades and try to influence where they go, kind of like how we do IRL.

Weapons have more value than their raw ability to mass-murder people in a single action. Consider how much more expensive it is to buy a sniper rifle compared to making a molotov cocktail. A lot of people might rather only kill some targets in particular, like if their target is closeby to a valued asset or ally.

Range is a major factor with thrown grenades, if someone was merely whipping nades around, they could be killed before they got within throwing distance with a rifle.

Is there a particular grenade-launching gun you'd like to weigh up against an energy weapon in tactical use and compared value?

Glitterboys are a threat no more at that point! 2 Grenade Launcher bursts, 6 grenades, and poof... Poor lil' Glitterboy has no hands left. No hands... No boom gun. Free Quebec wouldn't fear potential clashes with the CS, they'd fear any army that found out how to mass produce plasma grenades. Cheaper than most weapons, much more effective, and can neutralize multiple Glitterboys at once.

Triax Glitter-Boys are hands-free the vulnerability of the hands to area-affect weapons could explain why Quebec wanted some of the newer models in their trade agreement with the NGR.

Tell me though: how do you plan to get close enough to lob a nade (or even shoot one) before a boom gun takes out the nadier? Glitter-Boys are artillery, it's not horrible for there to be a downside to being caught at close range in one.

Spoiler:

I think I'm going to have to play chess against myself here.

The best argument I can see for secondary locations not taking AoE damage is actually the scenario I cited on page 1 of this thread, the example of the UAR-1 taking on the bandits.

I mentioned the hovercar getting vaped by missiles (turns out these were medium ranged) but I had forgot there was actually a second instance of missiles being used, one which strongly contradicts my point of view and now makes me feel like more of a fence-sitter.

Prior to nuking the hover-car, the UAR-1 shoots a volley of fragmentation missiles (short-range) at the SAMAS-wearing bandit. Since they are huge-radius frags, this ought to have hit the entire span of the SAMAS, or at least the front side of it...

Although the damage inflicted by the volley was not enough to destroy the SAMAS, half of the damage exceeds the MDC of both the wings and the jets, so if my logic held, the SAMAS should have been crippled and something like that would've been worth mentioning, yet that wasn't mentioned at all in the example.

So the RMB example actually opposes my PoV, and in introducing it I sowed the seeds, and in re-reading it, reaped the grain, of my own demise.

Does anyone know if they kept this combat scenario in RUE or if they replaced it with a different one?

AOE damage is to hands is not a game mechanic and not something free Quebec would worry about.
How would I get close enough to a GB to grenade it-
A stealth/prowl.
B Line of sight limiting terrene.
C Be traveling and just walk up and sneak attack when you get close.
Other ways are available depending on situation I am sure people will find them.

The GB boom gun may have a max range of 2 miles but that does not mean you can always see/shoot at things at the two mile mark. Traveling threw woodlands odds are most fire fights start fighting at 150m or less. should place it in range of any number of grenade launchers.

The posters point was your non cannon rule would change significantly what is good in the game. Making any non AOE weapon a poor choice. Many bots and PA have crippling weak points with low MDC hat in a AOE hits every part in the blast create a big rebalance issue. One simple rule just made a GB worse M1A2 Abrams refitted to do MDC. Range of a Abrams tank is 2 miles and guess what that is an explosion.

By the way a glitter boy is a tank not artillery. High ability to soak damage strong attack 2 mile range just like our main battle tank.

[Zer0 Kay]

I'm gonna do what you, Tor, may call a HWalsh here.

?

Pulling an HWalsh?

*blink*

Uh...

I guess that is a compliment?

I'm glad you chose to take it that way, 'cuz I didn't mean insult or injury.

[HWalsh]

I'm gonna do what you, Tor, may call a HWalsh here.

?

Pulling an HWalsh?

*blink*

Uh...

I guess that is a compliment?

I'm glad you chose to take it that way, 'cuz I didn't mean insult or injury.

That's why I took it as a compliment. I've not been here as an active poster long so at least I already have a forum combat maneuver named after me. Hehehe

Now, replying to a comment above...

Regarding weapon M.D.C.s the very out of date Conversion Book 1 indeed gives much higher M.D.C's for weapons... But the new book does take precedence, and we see it list the common CS weapon as having 5 M.D. and we should assume that the M.D. of weapons was reduced across the board. This isn't an old/new thing, this is a change to how things are thing.

[Zer0 Kay]

I'm gonna do what you, Tor, may call a HWalsh here.

?

Pulling an HWalsh?

*blink*

Uh...

I guess that is a compliment?

I'm glad you chose to take it that way, 'cuz I didn't mean insult or injury.

That's why I took it as a compliment. I've not been here as an active poster long so at least I already have a forum combat maneuver named after me. Hehehe

Yup. A Michael Bay is a ridiculous explosion (e.g. Two guys at a water cooler are talking, one slaps the top of the tank and it bursts into a fiery explosion... MICHAEL BAY!!!

Someone spouts a load of BS in one forum and is going along the same non-sensical lines... the person pointing it out is doing an HWalsh

Someone answers a question correctly with a single word post its a DOOM (at first frustrating, but now hilarious)

Someone drives home a point it's a KC (always entertaining, thank you)

Provides the grammer/spelling correction (thank you) it's. A DK

Rephrases/tranlates my dang near offensive or inflamitory post it's a Bill. (thank you)

Someone goes on a pointless rant or produces useless stereotypes it's a 0K not to be confused with OK, cuz it's not (seriously I don't know what that guys problem is )

[Kagashi]

So, the C-212 has 5 M.D.C.

Seems like a really weak weapon. Not all things are made the same I guess. Prolly why the AK-47 is still around in its basic form 65 years later and other assault rifles had a service life of only like 5 years (in game terms, the AK-47 has plenty of structural damage over its competitors since it is known to be a "rugged" weapon). Anyway, in the GMG, unless otherwise stated the average energy rifle or energy pistol has 15-25 MDC and energy rifles have 30-50 (GMG pp 111-112). For sake of argument, lets use the lower values, so 15 for a pistol and 30 for a rifle since apparently the C-212 is made of glass.

So the Coalition Grunt gets hit by the explosion from a Plasma grenade 6d6 M.D.C. which, on average, will do around 18 damage. (That assumes an average of 3 per die.)

The Grunt rolls with impact, reducing that damage to 9...

To the target hit, yes. But everything else in the 12 foot blast radius is automatically halved, so 4.5 MD with the successful roll, leaving the glass-made C-212 still functional. Fail the roll...and well, yeah its destroyed. But using the generic MDC values, most (all) weapons will still be usable, even if the roll was unsuccessful. But honestly, that's why I think explosives should be used with splash damage, explosives are *supposed* to hit lots of things at once.

Plus, as others have pointed out, there is a little GMing needed to ensure some realism would be applied. Should the grunt get hit from behind, the weapon he is holding in front of him might not be hit at all. Its not a perfect 12 foot circle.

Lets look at other grenades...

I think you are forgetting that blast radius is halved (RUE 362). Unless the weapons were specifically targeted, they would be taking half damage in all these cases.

Now as to the state of the CS soldier...

With the plasma-grenade

18 damage, in this case, without a successful roll with impact, on a Plasma-Grenade means dead. With even below average damage. (15 to the arm, 3 to the S.D.C. or H.P. underneath.) That is instant death to almost any non-MDC creature.

I disagree. If an 18 is rolled, 9.5 damage would be going to the other locations. His arm armor is still functional. Additionally, just because the SDC arm takes damage, does not mean the character is dead. I usually just blow off the arm, like reality. Ever wonder why you see disabled vets with prosthetic limbs? Because their bodies/head were protected, and their arms/legs were less so. RUE pp 358-359 specifically talks about this.

It also makes use of that whole blurb you see in most RCCs or Magical OCCs where a character avoids cybernetics/bionics "except for medical reasons". Having your arm blown off is good justification for medical reasons.

Because the blast radius reaches the arm. The weakest point on M.D. body armor.

Good. That's realistic.

The reason the game does not allow splash damage to hit limbs is specifically because of the arm and leg body armor.

IMHO, the reason why its not a rule is because KS and Company didnt want to spend pages of explanations and game mechanics as to why explosives behave as they do and wanted to keep combat fast(er). From that point of view, I totally see why they did that...I just prefer them to be more deadly than they canonically are.

In all seriousness Tor, that is the problem here, your view of this is absolutely game breaking. I don't think they intended grenades to be more damaging than most other weapons... Considering for the cost of 1 Energy Rifle you can actually get a good number of grenades and just murder people [i]en masse[/i[ as it were.

Not game breaking, more realistic. Yes, explosives are *supposed* to kill people en masse. Thats why they made em.

Or to point out the other flaw... The ridiculous damage this amounts to...

If the target takes a grenade to the chest... Here is the actual damage the grenade would deal out:

108 M.D.C. (On an average roll with a Plasma) 18 to the head, 18 to the right arm, 18 to the left arm, 18 to the chest, 18 to the right leg, 18 to the left leg.

Or 18 to the chest, 9.5 to the head, 9.5 to each arm, and 9.5 to each leg = 65.5, and assuming the character was hit from the front so the splash damage hits all those locations. Dont forget that blast radius is only half damage as per RUE p. 362. But yes, this DOES make for a good argument against splash damage rules. This is why I propose to assign Damage Capacity by Location to biological as per Compendium of Contemporary Weapons pp 16-17 to even out tech locations with biological locations, although I prefer to keep the main body at 100% instead of dividing it up like CCW says to, kinda like the FAQ example of dividing up body armor locations.

Again, the problem with allowing explosions to hit multiple body parts on the same target is, as illustrated, the potential abuse of it. It is how it is, only damaging the Main Body, because of balance.

I think its for convenience, not balance. Additionally, I think explosives are nerfed to the point where they are out of balance. Their prices already reflect the balance portion IMHO.

[Tiree]

I was in a situation where the following happened:

The players had a Mac II Monster, and there was an army of light MDC vehicles coming towards the party. The players had a bright idea of using the Mac II Monster's cannons to fire an artillery barrage. Not necessarily targeting a vehicle directly, but to create a wall of death and destruction. Damage: 2d6x10, 20ft Radius - 4 rounds 80ft wide by 20ft deep.

The targeted vehicles had approximately 5MD Wheels and 120 MD Main Body. People wore approximately 50 MD Main Body Armor

So how would you handle the outcome?

[Zer0 Kay]

So, the C-212 has 5 M.D.C.

Seems like a really weak weapon. Not all things are made the same I guess. Prolly why the AK-47 is still around in its basic form 65 years later and other assault rifles had a service life of only like 5 years (in game terms, the AK-47 has plenty of structural damage over its competitors since it is known to be a "rugged" weapon). Anyway, in the GMG, unless otherwise stated the average energy rifle or energy pistol has 15-25 MDC and energy rifles have 30-50 (GMG pp 111-112). For sake of argument, lets use the lower values, so 15 for a pistol and 30 for a rifle since apparently the C-212 is made of glass.

So the Coalition Grunt gets hit by the explosion from a Plasma grenade 6d6 M.D.C. which, on average, will do around 18 damage. (That assumes an average of 3 per die.)

The Grunt rolls with impact, reducing that damage to 9...

To the target hit, yes. But everything else in the 12 foot blast radius is automatically halved, so 4.5 MD with the successful roll, leaving the glass-made C-212 still functional. Fail the roll...and well, yeah its destroyed. But using the generic MDC values, most (all) weapons will still be usable, even if the roll was unsuccessful. But honestly, that's why I think explosives should be used with splash damage, explosives are *supposed* to hit lots of things at once.

Plus, as others have pointed out, there is a little GMing needed to ensure some realism would be applied. Should the grunt get hit from behind, the weapon he is holding in front of him might not be hit at all. Its not a perfect 12 foot circle.

Lets look at other grenades...

I think you are forgetting that blast radius is halved (RUE 362). Unless the weapons were specifically targeted, they would be taking half damage in all these cases.

Now as to the state of the CS soldier...

With the plasma-grenade

18 damage, in this case, without a successful roll with impact, on a Plasma-Grenade means dead. With even below average damage. (15 to the arm, 3 to the S.D.C. or H.P. underneath.) That is instant death to almost any non-MDC creature.

I disagree. If an 18 is rolled, 9.5 damage would be going to the other locations. His arm armor is still functional. Additionally, just because the SDC arm takes damage, does not mean the character is dead. I usually just blow off the arm, like reality. Ever wonder why you see disabled vets with prosthetic limbs? Because their bodies/head were protected, and their arms/legs were less so. RUE pp 358-359 specifically talks about this.

It also makes use of that whole blurb you see in most RCCs or Magical OCCs where a character avoids cybernetics/bionics "except for medical reasons". Having your arm blown off is good justification for medical reasons.

Because the blast radius reaches the arm. The weakest point on M.D. body armor.

Good. That's realistic.

The reason the game does not allow splash damage to hit limbs is specifically because of the arm and leg body armor.

IMHO, the reason why its not a rule is because KS and Company didnt want to spend pages of explanations and game mechanics as to why explosives behave as they do and wanted to keep combat fast(er). From that point of view, I totally see why they did that...I just prefer them to be more deadly than they canonically are.

In all seriousness Tor, that is the problem here, your view of this is absolutely game breaking. I don't think they intended grenades to be more damaging than most other weapons... Considering for the cost of 1 Energy Rifle you can actually get a good number of grenades and just murder people [i]en masse[/i[ as it were.

Not game breaking, more realistic. Yes, explosives are *supposed* to kill people en masse. Thats why they made em.

Or to point out the other flaw... The ridiculous damage this amounts to...

If the target takes a grenade to the chest... Here is the actual damage the grenade would deal out:

108 M.D.C. (On an average roll with a Plasma) 18 to the head, 18 to the right arm, 18 to the left arm, 18 to the chest, 18 to the right leg, 18 to the left leg.

Or 18 to the chest, 9.5 to the head, 9.5 to each arm, and 9.5 to each leg = 65.5, and assuming the character was hit from the front so the splash damage hits all those locations. Dont forget that blast radius is only half damage as per RUE p. 362. But yes, this DOES make for a good argument against splash damage rules. This is why I propose to assign Damage Capacity by Location to biological as per Compendium of Contemporary Weapons pp 16-17 to even out tech locations with biological locations, although I prefer to keep the main body at 100% instead of dividing it up like CCW says to, kinda like the FAQ example of dividing up body armor locations.

Again, the problem with allowing explosions to hit multiple body parts on the same target is, as illustrated, the potential abuse of it. It is how it is, only damaging the Main Body, because of balance.

I think its for convenience, not balance. Additionally, I think explosives are nerfed to the point where they are out of balance. Their prices already reflect the balance portion IMHO.

actually most grenades are made to do the same as any military weapon. It is better to wound your opponent than kill them outright. 1 wounded soldier takes three soldiers out of a fight if the enemy force is the type to retrieve wounded. Flak vest designed vs. fragmentation not bullets. Helmet designed vs. fragmentation not bullets. Kill enemy good, wound enemy better.

[Zer0 Kay]

I was in a situation where the following happened:

The players had a Mac II Monster, and there was an army of light MDC vehicles coming towards the party. The players had a bright idea of using the Mac II Monster's cannons to fire an artillery barrage. Not necessarily targeting a vehicle directly, but to create a wall of death and destruction. Damage: 2d6x10, 20ft Radius - 4 rounds 80ft wide by 20ft deep.

The targeted vehicles had approximately 5MD Wheels and 120 MD Main Body. People wore approximately 50 MD Main Body Armor

So how would you handle the outcome?

Players? Well it'd blow everything up.
NPCs vs. Players. If they weren't being stupid and the shells just rained out of the sky from a hidden artillery unit... I'd have it detonate on the ground sending the vehicle into the air and throwing the characters from it. The vehicle flips through the air hits the ground... and then Michael Bays.

[Tor]

AOE damage is to hands is not a game mechanic and not something free Quebec would worry about.

Even if this were true, called shots to hands would be.

How would I get close enough to a GB to grenade it-
A stealth/prowl.
B Line of sight limiting terrene.
C Be traveling and just walk up and sneak attack when you get close.
Other ways are available depending on situation I am sure people will find them.

The GB boom gun may have a max range of 2 miles but that does not mean you can always see/shoot at things at the two mile mark. Traveling threw woodlands odds are most fire fights start fighting at 150m or less. should place it in range of any number of grenade launchers.

Any wise tactician would keep GBs away from such ambush zones.

Making any non AOE weapon a poor choice.

It would make AoE stuff more useful against hit location targets, but non-AoE stuff would still have plenty of uses.

a glitter boy is a tank not artillery. High ability to soak damage strong attack 2 mile range just like our main battle tank.

A tip of that hat to you, I'm not as up on the terms. In terms of ranges that exceed the boom gun all I can remember are missiles though so it seemed like the closest thing. I'm sure there's some artillery elsewhere I forgot about though.

Regarding weapon M.D.C.s the very out of date Conversion Book 1 indeed gives much higher M.D.C's for weapons... But the new book does take precedence, and we see it list the common CS weapon as having 5 M.D. and we should assume that the M.D. of weapons was reduced across the board. This isn't an old/new thing, this is a change to how things are thing.

Are different MDC amounts listed for the exact same weapon in CB versus RUE?

If that's the case, it supports my 'separate dimensions' theory quite well. But if it's a case of CS new 'top o' the line' CWC gear having poor MDC (do they even list traditional CS stuff in RUE? I do not recall) then I would keep the original MDC the same and just think the newer gear sacrifices durability for damage.

[HWalsh]

AOE damage is to hands is not a game mechanic and not something free Quebec would worry about.

Even if this were true, called shots to hands would be.

How would I get close enough to a GB to grenade it-
A stealth/prowl.
B Line of sight limiting terrene.
C Be traveling and just walk up and sneak attack when you get close.
Other ways are available depending on situation I am sure people will find them.

The GB boom gun may have a max range of 2 miles but that does not mean you can always see/shoot at things at the two mile mark. Traveling threw woodlands odds are most fire fights start fighting at 150m or less. should place it in range of any number of grenade launchers.

Any wise tactician would keep GBs away from such ambush zones.

Making any non AOE weapon a poor choice.

It would make AoE stuff more useful against hit location targets, but non-AoE stuff would still have plenty of uses.

a glitter boy is a tank not artillery. High ability to soak damage strong attack 2 mile range just like our main battle tank.

A tip of that hat to you, I'm not as up on the terms. In terms of ranges that exceed the boom gun all I can remember are missiles though so it seemed like the closest thing. I'm sure there's some artillery elsewhere I forgot about though.

Regarding weapon M.D.C.s the very out of date Conversion Book 1 indeed gives much higher M.D.C's for weapons... But the new book does take precedence, and we see it list the common CS weapon as having 5 M.D. and we should assume that the M.D. of weapons was reduced across the board. This isn't an old/new thing, this is a change to how things are thing.

Are different MDC amounts listed for the exact same weapon in CB versus RUE?

If that's the case, it supports my 'separate dimensions' theory quite well. But if it's a case of CS new 'top o' the line' CWC gear having poor MDC (do they even list traditional CS stuff in RUE? I do not recall) then I would keep the original MDC the same and just think the newer gear sacrifices durability for damage.

Separate dimensions simply because you dislike it?

[Tor]

What am I disliking? I would like my question answered about whether different stats have been given for the same item first.

Even in that case, I can view that as before/after, the CS might skimp on materials to cheapen the manufacturing cost and equip more soldiers. Dimension separation is a last resort if we can explain things through other means.

[HWalsh]

What am I disliking? I would like my question answered about whether different stats have been given for the same item first.

Even in that case, I can view that as before/after, the CS might skimp on materials to cheapen the manufacturing cost and equip more soldiers. Dimension separation is a last resort if we can explain things through other means.

There is a simple explanation:
The numbers have changed. It is a game. Things change.

According to the GMG page 111-112 an Energy Rifle has between 30-50 M.D.C. It does not, to my knowledge, list the specific damage for the CV-212

We do know that the GMG states, on page 122 that the CV-212 and CV-213 (the Skelebot Variant) is:

It is a sturdy, reliable rifle that can survive a fair amount of combat abuse and activity without firing failure.

The Skelebots in the GMG reference the Skelebots from Coalition War Campaign, which I do not personally own a copy.

Conversion Book 1 lists the Skelebot's energy rifle (The CV-213, which is said to be identical to the CV-212) as having 5 M.D. on page 19.

The RUE confirms that the rifle only has 5 M.D.

Now we are left with a conundrum.

Either the GMG is correct, but somehow the CV-212 standard coalition infantry rifle, and I quote again: "It is a sturdy, reliable rifle that can survive a fair amount of combat abuse and activity without firing failure." is 6 to 10 times more fragile than any other laser rifle, or Palladium have (sensibly) toned down the Mega-Damage that a rifle has.

Let me be clear: A rifle should never require 30 M.D. to destroy... Armor... Something specifically designed to take damage... Often only has 30 M.D.C. at various points. A 3rd level Psychic using TK Body Field only has 30 M.D.C a 3rd level Magic User casting Armor of Ithan only has 30 M.D.C. 5 M.D.C. well it is what the book says and, to be honest, it makes a lot more sense.

Personally... I think the 30-50 is a typing error. It should be 3-5.

[Tor]

There is a third explanation: the rifle could have been meant to have 50 MDC (putting it at the upper tier of the GMG guidelines and supporting the 'sturdy' statement compared to other rifles) and the omission of the zero was an error that was not corrected between the printing of RUE and CB1revised (I forget what order they came in)

Also, I hate expressions like 'times more fragile'. It's like saying 10 cent gummy worms cost '10 times less' than dollar gummies. Tenth is better. 'Tenth' as durable. Times represents multiplication, for it to make something less requires multiplying by a fraction or a negative number.

I'm not sure what bothers you about rifles having a lot of MDC. Body armor is a thin spread-out covering, weapons are solid masses of MDC which have to be tough enough to either shape and expel MD energies without being harmed, or in many cases be able to parry them.

I may go later grab CWC and take a look. We may also compare the durability of firearms which accompany various PA and robots. Keeping in mind of course that those can afford to have more heavily armored skins due to artificial locomotion. Body armor has to be pretty light by comparison so it having low MDC is kinda understandable.

[Slight001]

Book order... CB1, CB1r, RUE...

[dragonfett]

I have just finished comparing the values from the SB1, CWC, and the RUE. The RUE reprints what was printed in the SB1 (I think that is what Slight001 and Tor meant as the CV-212 and CV-213 do not appear in either of the Conversion Books). I also checked the GMG but did not see where the weapon's MDC was printed (as I had only seen that listed with the hit locations of the actual Skelebots).

According to the CWC, the CV-212/3 has 30 MDC, and the C-200 rail gun used by the experimental Skelebots has 50 MDC.

[Blue_Lion]

AOE damage is to hands is not a game mechanic and not something free Quebec would worry about.

Even if this were true, called shots to hands would be.

How would I get close enough to a GB to grenade it-
A stealth/prowl.
B Line of sight limiting terrene.
C Be traveling and just walk up and sneak attack when you get close.
Other ways are available depending on situation I am sure people will find them.

The GB boom gun may have a max range of 2 miles but that does not mean you can always see/shoot at things at the two mile mark. Traveling threw woodlands odds are most fire fights start fighting at 150m or less. should place it in range of any number of grenade launchers.

Any wise tactician would keep GBs away from such ambush zones.

Making any non AOE weapon a poor choice.

It would make AoE stuff more useful against hit location targets, but non-AoE stuff would still have plenty of uses.

a glitter boy is a tank not artillery. High ability to soak damage strong attack 2 mile range just like our main battle tank.

A tip of that hat to you, I'm not as up on the terms. In terms of ranges that exceed the boom gun all I can remember are missiles though so it seemed like the closest thing. I'm sure there's some artillery elsewhere I forgot about though.

Regarding weapon M.D.C.s the very out of date Conversion Book 1 indeed gives much higher M.D.C's for weapons... But the new book does take precedence, and we see it list the common CS weapon as having 5 M.D. and we should assume that the M.D. of weapons was reduced across the board. This isn't an old/new thing, this is a change to how things are thing.

Are different MDC amounts listed for the exact same weapon in CB versus RUE?

If that's the case, it supports my 'separate dimensions' theory quite well. But if it's a case of CS new 'top o' the line' CWC gear having poor MDC (do they even list traditional CS stuff in RUE? I do not recall) then I would keep the original MDC the same and just think the newer gear sacrifices durability for damage.

The only way to keep a unit away from all possible ambushes is leave it in a open field. If you need to travel threw wooded terrain you will have limited visibility and thus have to run the risk of ambush. Most real life military encounters in wooded environments have fire fights starting at 150m or less. We had to stop deploying the Mrk 19 grenade launcher because fights in Iraq where often inside its arming range(sorry cant remember if it is 25 or 50m).

Called shots to hands are extremely uncommon in combat. Most real life snipers would not try it. it also requires being able to see the hand. The boom gun does provide cover and concealment to the hands. So I do not think it is a factor for FQ.

Having explosives damage every exposed area of the game would severely limit the survivability and reduce people fun. That is why the system is not built that way. In addition doing so pushes the total damage done above the intended top damage of the weapon. The damage of the explosion is intended to be the top potential damage to anything it hits total not part. The game more fun and quicker damage that hits 2 or more parts of the body is taken from Main would be a way to explain why the rules are do not hit every part. I did see a GM spread the total explosion damage around and burst damage of rail guns using math but it took significantly longer.

[Tor]

I similar found rifles in CWC having 30 or 50 or even 100 MDC, and the amount given to limbs and head were pretty generous, usually half or more than the main body. I'm still not clear which amendments RUE is supposed to contain to established amounts.

The only way to keep a unit away from all possible ambushes is leave it in a open field. If you need to travel threw wooded terrain you will have limited visibility and thus have to run the risk of ambush. Most real life military encounters in wooded environments have fire fights starting at 150m or less. We had to stop deploying the Mrk 19 grenade launcher because fights in Iraq where often inside its arming range(sorry cant remember if it is 25 or 50m).

The boom gun does provide cover and concealment to the hands. So I do not think it is a factor for FQ.

Having explosives damage every exposed area of the game would severely limit the survivability and reduce people fun.

You sort of addressed your own concern here. If one rules that a boom gun provides cover preventing normal called shots, then it stands to reason it should also provide cover to protect from AoE hits.

the system is not built that way. In addition doing so pushes the total damage done above the intended top damage of the weapon. The damage of the explosion is intended to be the top potential damage to anything it hits total not part.

I can't read intent, just letter.

Letter-wise I believe it is indicated by parts having separate amounts being within the AoE.

The combat example doesn't support this view, but then, the example isn't incredibly extensive. Although it doesn't mention secondary locations of the SAMAS hit by short-range missiles also taking damage, when the missiles hit the stolen hover-car it doesn't mention the driver taking damage either, so I do not see omission in the example as necessarily meaning that secondary things don't get hit. Even if that hover-car was closed to protect the pilot, they still should have taken crash damage.

[Blue_Lion]

I similar found rifles in CWC having 30 or 50 or even 100 MDC, and the amount given to limbs and head were pretty generous, usually half or more than the main body. I'm still not clear which amendments RUE is supposed to contain to established amounts.

The only way to keep a unit away from all possible ambushes is leave it in a open field. If you need to travel threw wooded terrain you will have limited visibility and thus have to run the risk of ambush. Most real life military encounters in wooded environments have fire fights starting at 150m or less. We had to stop deploying the Mrk 19 grenade launcher because fights in Iraq where often inside its arming range(sorry cant remember if it is 25 or 50m).

The boom gun does provide cover and concealment to the hands. So I do not think it is a factor for FQ.

Having explosives damage every exposed area of the game would severely limit the survivability and reduce people fun.

You sort of addressed your own concern here. If one rules that a boom gun provides cover preventing normal called shots, then it stands to reason it should also provide cover to protect from AoE hits.

the system is not built that way. In addition doing so pushes the total damage done above the intended top damage of the weapon. The damage of the explosion is intended to be the top potential damage to anything it hits total not part.

I can't read intent, just letter.

Letter-wise I believe it is indicated by parts having separate amounts being within the AoE.

The combat example doesn't support this view, but then, the example isn't incredibly extensive. Although it doesn't mention secondary locations of the SAMAS hit by short-range missiles also taking damage, when the missiles hit the stolen hover-car it doesn't mention the driver taking damage either, so I do not see omission in the example as necessarily meaning that secondary things don't get hit. Even if that hover-car was closed to protect the pilot, they still should have taken crash damage.

That is not letter wise. Letter wise you is only what is in print. They do not say deals X damage to every part of something in blast. That is a conclusion you jumped to that is not in the letter.-countered by things like missiles saying the hit main body and the arm block on robots (the main body is still in the blast radius). With no true supporting material in the rules or combat examples to support your conclusion that you did not create in your head.

[Tor]

For anyone worried about -lost my hand, I dead now- armor issues, keep in mind the -last bit- rule will protect the limb under the armor from the attack which depletes it, and I think a missile volley collectively counts as 1 attack, so another missile blast would have to hit to make you lose the hand, and that shouldn't actually kill you.

On an unrelated note, I just now noticed that RUE upgraded armor-piercing missiles, x3 on nat 20, get a span of crit numbers like a HtH, nice.

Back to the topic, let's look at what missiles are specified as doing.

Arm block doesn't invalidate my theory, it introduces the idea that you can shape a damage sphere.

The bit about missiles hitting the main body is obviously talking about what they will target by default. It doesn't restrict other concepts like being able to make called shots or secondary targets in blast radius taking half.

Page 363 mentions that a natural 20 to strike always hits, including called shots. Called shots are not done to main bodies. So that means that while the main body is always hit, it does not have to be the primary target. This simply reminds players that if you do a called shot, the main body will be caught in the epicenter.

-all missiles always strike the main body- does not mean -missiles ONLY strike the main body-

fragmentation explosives are designed to be anti-personnel, which means collateral damage is likely to leave plenty of trace evidence, salvageable gear and resources, and even enemies who are incapacitated, wounded and maimed but alive for interrogation and capture.

Bigger-radius booms would be guaranteed to deplete low-MDC targets like hands/feet which would wound+maim them but leave them alive. This falls in line with what I think.

Page 363 has very broad statements:

"everyone and everything else in the blast radius suffers half"

"everything else within the rest of the blast area suffers half the Mega-Damage"

Hit locations on robots or body armor are something else besides the main body, so I believe they are included with this language.

[Blue_Lion]

Why limit something that is not there. show one book example of damage from and explosion being dealt to more than the main body.

PG 363 radius damage.
...inflicts full damage to the target it strikes (lands at the feet of).....

So a grende that lands at the feet of you take full damage not damage to your foot but to you.

PG 362 main body.
to strike something other than the main body, the attacker must make a "called shot' or roll a natural 20.

These two combined undermine your point fairly well.

The arm block is called block sacrifice in my book, not realy sacrificing if it would take damage any ways. And arms have gaps between them that would allow a blast wave to reach the main body.
In addition if every part in the blast radius took damage the main body would still take damage as it is in the blast radius no where does it say calculate what is blocked by wall or rock and not have it take damage.(that is conclution you are jumping to.)

So I demand proof in the form of sample combat that shows a missile strike or grenade does damage to every part of something.
(Important as the example that you sighted shows that the samas did not take damage to every part)

[eliakon]

Why limit something that is not there. show one book example of damage from and explosion being dealt to more than the main body.

PG 363 radius damage.
...inflicts full damage to the target it strikes (lands at the feet of).....

So a grende that lands at the feet of you take full damage not damage to your foot but to you.

PG 362 main body.
to strike something other than the main body, the attacker must make a "called shot' or roll a natural 20.

These two combined undermine your point fairly well.

The arm block is called block sacrifice in my book, not realy sacrificing if it would take damage any ways. And arms have gaps between them that would allow a blast wave to reach the main body.
In addition if every part in the blast radius took damage the main body would still take damage as it is in the blast radius no where does it say calculate what is blocked by wall or rock and not have it take damage.(that is conclution you are jumping to.)

So I demand proof in the form of sample combat that shows a missile strike or grenade does damage to every part of something.
(Important as the example that you sighted shows that the samas did not take damage to every part)

Actually the sample combat from the RMB pg. 43 clearly has a Samas hit by missiles. The missiles "inflict a total of 90 mega damage" Not "do 90 mega damage to every location" (which you think would be important for a step by step introduction to how the combat works) just "inflicts a total of 90 mega damage"

[Kagashi]

Yeah, clearly, Palladium's stance is blast radius is applicable only to those not struck with the main blast, but being within the blast radius, leaving other locations of the object struck unharmed. By the book, this is the official way to do it. Kevin doesnt like damage locations and even states it in the Compendium of Modern Weapons.

Its just a dumb and unrealistic rule IMHO, especially if KS doesnt like the idea of the rule, why doesnt a SAMAS just have one hit location like a dragon does? Why even open that can of worms?

To me the fix is, implement splash damage rules, assign hit locations to biological targets and treat everything the same. Or remove all references to other damage locations on tech based targets and just use main body for everything. Either way...just treat everything the same.

[Tiree]

To me the fix is, implement splash damage rules, assign hit locations to biological targets and treat everything the same. Or remove all references to other damage locations on tech based targets and just use main body for everything. Either way...just treat everything the same.

I pretty much do the latter. I use hit locations only for called shots IE when a player is trying to do something spectacular like shoot out an eye, or do 'Head Shots' Otherwise Main Body and/or Shields

[eliakon]

Yeah, clearly, Palladium's stance is blast radius is applicable only to those not struck with the main blast, but being within the blast radius, leaving other locations of the object struck unharmed. By the book, this is the official way to do it. Kevin doesnt like damage locations and even states it in the Compendium of Modern Weapons.

Its just a dumb and unrealistic rule IMHO, especially if KS doesnt like the idea of the rule, why doesnt a SAMAS just have one hit location like a dragon does? Why even open that can of worms?

To me the fix is, implement splash damage rules, assign hit locations to biological targets and treat everything the same. Or remove all references to other damage locations on tech based targets and just use main body for everything. Either way...just treat everything the same.

It also opens the question of 'If a person is holding a bone staff and is hit with a missile....does the staff take damage?" After all if you say that everything takes splash damage then the staff is taking damage....even though it says that it only takes damage if its secificly targeted....
Not to mention the frusteration of having to either figure out the MDC of every item on a person or the game breaking consiquences of saying "okay they threw a grenade near you, you now have no equipment, sorry"

[Kagashi]

Yeah, clearly, Palladium's stance is blast radius is applicable only to those not struck with the main blast, but being within the blast radius, leaving other locations of the object struck unharmed. By the book, this is the official way to do it. Kevin doesnt like damage locations and even states it in the Compendium of Modern Weapons.

Its just a dumb and unrealistic rule IMHO, especially if KS doesnt like the idea of the rule, why doesnt a SAMAS just have one hit location like a dragon does? Why even open that can of worms?

To me the fix is, implement splash damage rules, assign hit locations to biological targets and treat everything the same. Or remove all references to other damage locations on tech based targets and just use main body for everything. Either way...just treat everything the same.

It also opens the question of 'If a person is holding a bone staff and is hit with a missile....does the staff take damage?" After all if you say that everything takes splash damage then the staff is taking damage....even though it says that it only takes damage if its secificly targeted....
Not to mention the frusteration of having to either figure out the MDC of every item on a person or the game breaking consiquences of saying "okay they threw a grenade near you, you now have no equipment, sorry"

Yes, I would have the bone staff damaged in the blast radius. I believe the rule of being specifically targeted in order to take damage was intended to cover the fact the weapon could be used in melee combat, where it would be used to parry MD attacks and so on, emphasizing that every blow in melee combat isnt going to slowly destroy the weapon over time...it is designed for that type of combat. Not because they were thinking of blast radius (because the official rule is that it wouldnt be hit). And yes, being enveloped in a ball of burning plasma 12 feet in circumference should destroy all minor items within it IMHO. But, it takes a lot of extra work for the GM to cover all that. For example, if that missile blew up 5 feet behind the character, likely just the backpack would fall victim to the attack. The weapon carried in front would be shielded by the characters own body and be unaffected. Its not a total loss, nor are minor items as glass like as you might think they are. That bone staff has 80 MDC. Even if getting directly hit by a pretty common plasma short ranged missile doing max damage (120 MD), the staff would only be taking 60 MD, still surviving the attack. Most mundane equipment listed in RUE does not list DC values, so I suspect they are SDC constructs and would likely be vaporized as the description of a plasma missile from RUE describes.

Its because of all this though, its easier just to ignore blast radius all together to keep combat moving faster for convenience, which Kevin has said he likes to do in the past.

But if all your equipment is destroyed...so be it. Its part of the game. Be wary of explosives...as you should be.

[eliakon]

Yeah, clearly, Palladium's stance is blast radius is applicable only to those not struck with the main blast, but being within the blast radius, leaving other locations of the object struck unharmed. By the book, this is the official way to do it. Kevin doesnt like damage locations and even states it in the Compendium of Modern Weapons.

Its just a dumb and unrealistic rule IMHO, especially if KS doesnt like the idea of the rule, why doesnt a SAMAS just have one hit location like a dragon does? Why even open that can of worms?

To me the fix is, implement splash damage rules, assign hit locations to biological targets and treat everything the same. Or remove all references to other damage locations on tech based targets and just use main body for everything. Either way...just treat everything the same.

It also opens the question of 'If a person is holding a bone staff and is hit with a missile....does the staff take damage?" After all if you say that everything takes splash damage then the staff is taking damage....even though it says that it only takes damage if its secificly targeted....
Not to mention the frusteration of having to either figure out the MDC of every item on a person or the game breaking consiquences of saying "okay they threw a grenade near you, you now have no equipment, sorry"

Yes, I would have the bone staff damaged in the blast radius. I believe the rule of being specifically targeted in order to take damage was intended to cover the fact the weapon could be used in melee combat, where it would be used to parry MD attacks and so on, emphasizing that every blow in melee combat isnt going to slowly destroy the weapon over time...it is designed for that type of combat. Not because they were thinking of blast radius (because the official rule is that it wouldnt be hit). And yes, being enveloped in a ball of burning plasma 12 feet in circumference should destroy all minor items within it IMHO. But, it takes a lot of extra work for the GM to cover all that. For example, if that missile blew up 5 feet behind the character, likely just the backpack would fall victim to the attack. The weapon carried in front would be shielded by the characters own body and be unaffected. Its not a total loss, nor are minor items as glass like as you might think they are. That bone staff has 80 MDC. Even if getting directly hit by a pretty common plasma short ranged missile doing max damage (120 MD), the staff would only be taking 60 MD, still surviving the attack. Most mundane equipment listed in RUE does not list DC values, so I suspect they are SDC constructs and would likely be vaporized as the description of a plasma missile from RUE describes.

Its because of all this though, its easier just to ignore blast radius all together to keep combat moving faster for convenience, which Kevin has said he likes to do in the past.

But if all your equipment is destroyed...so be it. Its part of the game. Be wary of explosives...as you should be.

Do you provide your players with a way to protect their equipment then? Or do you just say "sucks to be you, anyone with any sort of AoE attack can automatically destroy all your gear." (because remember I can just target the rock at their feet and then I just have to roll an 8 or higher....rocks don't generally dodge after all.)
I am just asking because I don't think that was meant to be 'part of the game' But its the logical consequences of having all attacks do all damage....
And as for the Bone Staff....while that is again 'logical' (just like blasts are 'logical') it does require ignoring the explicit text that says it can only be damaged by directed attacks. Which again is pointing out that the radius idea, while 'logical' does not actually fit the rules as written....
And as for 'items are not glass'....since most items have, at most, 5-10 MDC....then yes it might as well be glass. One AoE attack and suddenly
1) All carried items are probably destroyed
2) All weapons are now useless (E-Clips are pretty vunerable)
3) Ditto your grenades
4) And of course, as others have pointed out, if your armor is not a full sealed suit, then the person just instantly died. (unless they are MDC)

Now if this sort of thing is what you like in your game....more power to you, but I do not believe that the intent was to make the grenade one of the top tier weapons in the game.

[Blue_Lion]

To me the fix is, implement splash damage rules, assign hit locations to biological targets and treat everything the same. Or remove all references to other damage locations on tech based targets and just use main body for everything. Either way...just treat everything the same.

I pretty much do the latter. I use hit locations only for called shots IE when a player is trying to do something spectacular like shoot out an eye, or do 'Head Shots' Otherwise Main Body and/or Shields

That is what it says to do under main body of Rue.

[Tor]

Why limit something that is not there. show one book example of damage from and explosion being dealt to more than the main body.

Better question: aside from the UAR-1 scenario I cited can we find ANY book examples of missiles being used at all? Palladium doesn't include many combat examples far as I know.

PG 363 radius damage. ...inflicts full damage to the target it strikes (lands at the feet of).....

So a grende that lands at the feet of you take full damage not damage to your foot but to you.

Where does it say that the main body rather than the feet takes full here?

Thinking of this realistically, if I'm a CS soldier and a grenade lands between my boots, why would my boots get off undamaged and my torso takes full damage?

PG 362 main body. to strike something other than the main body, the attacker must make a "called shot' or roll a natural 20.

That is referring to direct hits. To make a grenade land on a Dead Boy's feet rather than hit him in the chest, you would have to do this.

not realy sacrificing if it would take damage any ways

Taking full damage instead of half is a sacrifice.

Some robots are also so big that a small-radius missile could hit them in the chest and not even reach the arms. This is probably the case with the Devastator.

arms have gaps between them that would allow a blast wave to reach the main body.

Sometimes interlocking arms can help to fill those gaps. Or a robot's arms could be so long that punching the missile (or whatev) would prevent the radius from reaching the main body if the arms were longer than the radius.

if every part in the blast radius took damage the main body would still take damage as it is in the blast radius

That depends on the radius of the missile and the length of the arm. Plus, like I said, block-sacrifice sets a precident for being able to damage-shape a sphere. Kind of like how you could in theory, put your robot's arm in front of a friend and protect them.

no where does it say calculate what is blocked by wall or rock and not have it take damage.(that is conclution you are jumping to.)

I thought we did have rules on finding cover and stuff. Hiding behind a wall should protect someone from a missile blast unless the expanding sphere somehow curves around it.

I demand proof in the form of sample combat that shows a missile strike or grenade does damage to every part of something. (Important as the example that you sighted shows that the samas did not take damage to every part)

The example also doesn't show the hovercar pilots taking damage, and it doesn't tell us how much SDC the SAMAS pilot took from the explosion. These are clearly oversighted details. A detail not being included in the example doesn't mean the mechanic does not exist.

I cited the part that said EVERYthing takes damage in the radius. A person's gun, their helmet, a robot's giant sword, these are all things.

the sample combat from the RMB pg. 43 clearly has a Samas hit by missiles. The missiles "inflict a total of 90 mega damage" Not "do 90 mega damage to every location" (which you think would be important for a step by step introduction to how the combat works) just "inflicts a total of 90 mega damage"

I do not think anyone has argued that every location would take 90. My view is that the main body would take 90 and the other parts would take 45.

This detail was not included, but that doesn't matter, this combat example also leaves out other details. 90 MD should per p356 of RUE inflict 4 points of SDC to the pilot. There is also a 60% chance of getting stunned, also not rolled for. If the example leaves out a secondary details like these, then no precedent is set by leaving our other secondary details, like the other parts of the SAMAS taking 1/2 dmg.

game breaking consiquences of saying "okay they threw a grenade near you, you now have no equipment, sorry"

That doesn't break the game, it makes grenades dangerous, like they should be. Is Rifts supposed to be like Brawl where you can just get peppered by Snake's nades and walk through them?

If a grenade is scary then stay out of throwing range, or carry one of those big guns with 50 to 100 MDC. If people are casually carrying around explosives they may get in trouble for it in a lot of places.

Do you provide your players with a way to protect their equipment then? Or do you just say "sucks to be you, anyone with any sort of AoE attack can automatically destroy all your gear."

I believe it is called 'put it in a vehicle' or 'put it behind a wall'.

I don't think that was meant to be 'part of the game' But its the logical consequences of having all attacks do all damage....

Explosions are suddenly 'all attacks' now? I thought the majority of attacks were still single-target non-AoE.

as for the Bone Staff....while that is again 'logical' (just like blasts are 'logical') it does require ignoring the explicit text that says it can only be damaged by directed attacks.

That's clearly a reference to it not taking damage from being parried by a MD blade or parrying an MD blade.

the radius idea, while 'logical' does not actually fit the rules as written....

Except of course where it says EVERYTHING in the radius takes 1/2 damage (unless rolled with, then 1/4)

most items have, at most, 5-10 MDC

Source? I find the MDC stats for most items to actually be missing. If you want a durable rifle that you can carry I'd recommend the Juicer line, gets 30 instead of 20, pretty decent.

Missiles being so wrecking is a good motivation to shoot at them if they're fired at you. Also help explain how the CS won SoT.

[Kagashi]

Do you provide your players with a way to protect their equipment then?

Yes. Its called, "putting it in a safe place" or "Be smart about keeping spares".

Or do you just say "sucks to be you, anyone with any sort of AoE attack can automatically destroy all your gear."

1) Yes, I am a pretty black and white GM. I dont fudge rolls just to keep a character alive, but it works the other way as well to the benefit of the players too when their attacks are providing the same effects.
2) I have shown many times in this thread that secondary equipment is not "automatically destroyed" if you actually do the math. Everybody seems to forget that objects struck within the blast radius takes only half damage as per RUE page 362.
3) I have used these rules many times and not one player had a problem with things taking blast radius damage. Nor did anybody instantly die as a result. But folks did have a greater appreciation for explosives.

(because remember I can just target the rock at their feet and then I just have to roll an 8 or higher....rocks don't generally dodge after all.)

A completely irrelevant statement. The act of dodging means you are physically moving your body from the location you once were. Targeting the rocks or targeting the person, if the character successfully dodges, he dodges. Furthermore, as everybody constantly forgets, targeting the rocks means only the rocks would take full damage, and everything else takes half. Why automatically restrict yourself to half damage when you could do full damage to a specific location especially why the character could still dodge the attack just the same?

I am just asking because I don't think that was meant to be 'part of the game' But its the logical consequences of having all attacks do all damage....

Its not meant to be part of the game. Ive stated that many times. Kevin has stated that many times. It creates extra work for the GM, but IMHO, provides a more realistic outcome concerning explosives which is why I like it. I assume you meant to say "all *locations* do all damage..." which as I said above is still incorrect as blast radius clearly states the damage is halved.

And as for the Bone Staff....while that is again 'logical' (just like blasts are 'logical') it does require ignoring the explicit text that says it can only be damaged by directed attacks. Which again is pointing out that the radius idea, while 'logical' does not actually fit the rules as written....

Yes, I already said this diverts from official canon...

And as for 'items are not glass'....since most items have, at most, 5-10 MDC....then yes it might as well be glass. One AoE attack and suddenly
1) All carried items are probably destroyed
2) All weapons are now useless (E-Clips are pretty vunerable)
3) Ditto your grenades
4) And of course, as others have pointed out, if your armor is not a full sealed suit, then the person just instantly died. (unless they are MDC)

Do you have a source for theses items?

1) *Some* items are probably destroyed. What direction did the explosion come from? What did you put your items in? ect...
2) *Some* weapons are now useless (*IF* they use eclips, *IF* the eclips are subject to the splash damage at the time of the specific attack.) Perhaps you should not put all your eggs in one basket and have alternate sources of offensive capabilities and place them in various parts across your body...
3) same.
4) Sigh. Im going to assume you didnt pay attention to my previous posts to other posters within this same thread (Despite the fact you quoted one of my posts that was talking about it). So here it goes again. Using splash damage rules, you would have to assign damage capacity locations to biological entities just like technological targets have. There are established rules on how to do this in the Compendium of Modern Weapons (which is an obscure book not everybody has), or you can use the FAQ example of assigning locations to body armor, but apply it to the living organism with a single stat for damage capacity (HP/SDC or MDC). In both cases, the official optional rules values are a bit off IMHO and I would use the following:

Unless specified to a particular body part:
- Main Body: 100% of the base HP/SDC or MDC value
- Head: 50%
- Leg: 25%
- Foot: 10%
- Arm or Tentacle: 15%
- Hand: 10%
- Tail: 25%
- Wings: 50%

These values are pretty much moot in an MDC environment if the values are SDC, but it does illustrate how only the body part would be affected rather than "instant death". In the Robotech game Tiree played with me, this is how the character Jonas was determined to have a broken arm. I did it all behind the scenes, but this is the method I used.

That way if only the arm is exposed, only the arm is damaged. I find it absolutely ridiculous I could stab you in the finger with a vibro-knife and your heart explodes from 4 MD of damage going into your finger. No. Your finger would be destroyed and you would continue to live. But by official rules, that's how some people interpret it despite RUE specifically going into how to survive MD attacks at the end of the book. These rules simply put quantifiable numbers to that rule instead of general GM impression and will to keep the character alive.

Now if this sort of thing is what you like in your game....more power to you, but I do not believe that the intent was to make the grenade one of the top tier weapons in the game.

It is. And I always said it wasn't official rules, many times.

[Kagashi]

To me the fix is, implement splash damage rules, assign hit locations to biological targets and treat everything the same. Or remove all references to other damage locations on tech based targets and just use main body for everything. Either way...just treat everything the same.

I pretty much do the latter. I use hit locations only for called shots IE when a player is trying to do something spectacular like shoot out an eye, or do 'Head Shots' Otherwise Main Body and/or Shields

Do you just use the main body? Or do you add up all the locations into one value?

[HWalsh]

But by official rules, that's how some people interpret it despite RUE specifically going into how to survive MD attacks at the end of the book. These rules simply put quantifiable numbers to that rule instead of general GM impression and will to keep the character alive.

I don't think its fair to use those (very optional) rules as your base justification. Especially since they start more-or-less with:

You are incapacitated and will die in moments unless someone saves you with hard core medical skills. Even using those, you get stabbed in the finger with M.D. you are losing the finger and dying without immediate medical attention.

Side note:

I recommend against such phrases as, "Nobody ever has had a..."

I was part of a demo team for WW in Arizona, and the guy running it made the same claim.

Yet in my 6 months as a member I saw 3 people leave because they didn't like his house rules and later I left as well. Often they won't tell you if they had an issue with it because leaving a group is hard enough.

Edit: To add...

Were I a member of your group I'd openly state my dislike for the rule and ask you to reconsider. If the rule remained in effect I would then abuse it maliciously to my advantage.

[Tor]

One thing about grenades is... the rules don't seem to address the idea of a timed detonation that happens after pin-pulling and the complications that might result from that. Although I do wonder if some modern grenades might instead of a time just be impact-sensitive or something.

If there was no pin-safety then impact-sensitivity would cause huge problems for safely carrying them. Maybe to reflect pin-mechanics a grenade should be prepped (kind of like a power-punch) and take an action to set up...

This would give people a chance to prep (put up a shield, begin spreading out, etc.) or even try to snipe the grenade (pretty small so should be a decent penalty on the called shot) or perhaps the arm of the person (or the head) about to throw it.

If someone is storing grenades in a satchel on their person then it should also take an action to remove it and put it in your hand, so really it should take 3 actions to throw a grenade.

[Blue_Lion]

To me the fix is, implement splash damage rules, assign hit locations to biological targets and treat everything the same. Or remove all references to other damage locations on tech based targets and just use main body for everything. Either way...just treat everything the same.

I pretty much do the latter. I use hit locations only for called shots IE when a player is trying to do something spectacular like shoot out an eye, or do 'Head Shots' Otherwise Main Body and/or Shields

Do you just use the main body? Or do you add up all the locations into one value?

Just use the main body. Unless called shot is made fallows what is written in rue.

[Blue_Lion]

One thing about grenades is... the rules don't seem to address the idea of a timed detonation that happens after pin-pulling and the complications that might result from that. Although I do wonder if some modern grenades might instead of a time just be impact-sensitive or something.

If there was no pin-safety then impact-sensitivity would cause huge problems for safely carrying them. Maybe to reflect pin-mechanics a grenade should be prepped (kind of like a power-punch) and take an action to set up...

This would give people a chance to prep (put up a shield, begin spreading out, etc.) or even try to snipe the grenade (pretty small so should be a decent penalty on the called shot) or perhaps the arm of the person (or the head) about to throw it.

If someone is storing grenades in a satchel on their person then it should also take an action to remove it and put it in your hand, so really it should take 3 actions to throw a grenade.

Typically time fused grenades are 3-5 seconds, that places the detonation about the time of a action. unless the grenade is in hand I would rule getting it out and prepped for use to take 1 action. But same could be said for drawing a side arm.

[Kagashi]

But by official rules, that's how some people interpret it despite RUE specifically going into how to survive MD attacks at the end of the book. These rules simply put quantifiable numbers to that rule instead of general GM impression and will to keep the character alive.

I don't think its fair to use those (very optional) rules as your base justification. Especially since they start more-or-less with:

You are incapacitated and will die in moments unless someone saves you with hard core medical skills. Even using those, you get stabbed in the finger with M.D. you are losing the finger and dying without immediate medical attention.

Which is an eye rolling effect to an obviously dumb rule. Applying damage of that magnitude to a finger does not kill somebody. It simply doesnt. Unless you are a DBee and your brain lives in your finger. Having your finger cut off by a vibro knife does not kill you. Stab your head with the same knife, and you are dead. The same amount of damage is being dealt in both examples. The extra damage does not flow through the finger and is applied to the heart, brain, and internal organs...that just very unrealistic. Would you be bleeding out? Prolly. But simple first aid would fix that. Doesnt matter the source or magnitude of the damage of cutting off your finger. Its simply not a vital part of your body.

Were I a member of your group I'd openly state my dislike for the rule and ask you to reconsider. If the rule remained in effect I would then abuse it maliciously to my advantage.

I have no problem with people leaving the game. My rules in my games are my rules. Since Palladium waffles on rules anyway, often falling back to the cop out of "do what you want", every game is full of house rules and inevitably one person's idea of interpreting a vague rule means something different than the next guy and the two are might not be compatible. There are always more players.

That being said, I would expect a player to utilize rules to their advantage. Its not abuse, its the game. Using explosives in this manner is normal. The Taliban does it every day. It would be unfair for me to apply these rules and not divulge that they happen.

[HWalsh]

But by official rules, that's how some people interpret it despite RUE specifically going into how to survive MD attacks at the end of the book. These rules simply put quantifiable numbers to that rule instead of general GM impression and will to keep the character alive.

I don't think its fair to use those (very optional) rules as your base justification. Especially since they start more-or-less with:

You are incapacitated and will die in moments unless someone saves you with hard core medical skills. Even using those, you get stabbed in the finger with M.D. you are losing the finger and dying without immediate medical attention.

Which is an eye rolling effect to an obviously dumb rule. Applying damage of that magnitude to a finger does not kill somebody. It simply doesnt. Unless you are a DBee and your brain lives in your finger. Having your finger cut off by a vibro knife does not kill you. Stab your head with the same knife, and you are dead. The same amount of damage is being dealt in both examples. The extra damage does not flow through the finger and is applied to the heart, brain, and internal organs...that just very unrealistic. Would you be bleeding out? Prolly. But simple first aid would fix that. Doesnt matter the source or magnitude of the damage of cutting off your finger. Its simply not a vital part of your body.

Were I a member of your group I'd openly state my dislike for the rule and ask you to reconsider. If the rule remained in effect I would then abuse it maliciously to my advantage.

I have no problem with people leaving the game. My rules in my games are my rules. Since Palladium waffles on rules anyway, often falling back to the cop out of "do what you want", every game is full of house rules and inevitably one person's idea of interpreting a vague rule means something different than the next guy and the two are might not be compatible. There are always more players.

That being said, I would expect a player to utilize rules to their advantage. Its not abuse, its the game. Using explosives in this manner is normal. The Taliban does it every day. It would be unfair for me to apply these rules and not divulge that they happen.

Paired Weapon, Quick Drawing, Dual grenades thrown at the feet of all opponents... He'd be a Crazy. He'd be Captain Jamie "Kaboom" Hynaman. Jamie likes big booms. The worst thing to be in such a game would be a Borg. As Borgs would be losing very expensive feet left and right.

[Blue_Lion]

Tor the rule writien for blast radius does not take into account shaping at all. Every thing in X radius takes damage, is not every thing in X radius that is not shielded. So to me you are now creating two false mechanics that are not acutaly part of the game.

So now you are claiming the lack of damage to every part in the example a simple over sight by Palladium? If the explotion worked the way you claim that would a pretty significant over sight. To me it is more logical to assume that it is not true speicaly when combined with the note under main body.

Take a look at the wording from Rue
...inflicts full damage to the target it strikes (lands at the feet of)...
So let me ask you this normally would a player say "I shoot a volley of missals at the Mystic knight" Or I shoot a volley of missiles at the mystic night armor"? Most players I know say the would shoot the mystic knight is the rule saying the human inside the armor takes the damage as he is the target, or the damage is applied to him armor first? The target you throw a grenade at is not the guys boots but the guy.

****AM I one thing made up of several parts, or just several things grouped together?****

This seams to be a key question. If I am one thing then my arms and legs are part of the same thing. That would make taking damage to the main body would fulfill the every thing takes damage. (Note that separate things such as weapons would technically take damage.) The same is true for your armor the gloves, helmet boots legs, grieves are all part of the same armor suit of armor when you where them together, parts making up 1 thing a suit of armor.

What you are saying equates that your chest is one thing your arm is a separate thing your hand is a separate thing.

Why have MDC by location the only reason is called shot. By giving MDC by locaition allows called shots to be used to take something out such as sensors or wings to cause a result that is favorable to the attacker. Thus creating a better affect that does at the cost of not counting toward disabling the whole. *Note there are formulas to determine how much MDC?SDC parts of a creature have when it is not broken down.*

[Mechghost]

If a grenade goes off at someone's feet it doesn't mean he is hit everywhere - he won't be hit in both feet, both legs, both arms, both hands, the torso and the head, plus his rifle, plus his pistol, plus his belt, etc etc.

Damage is to main body to simplify the game process, I imagine someone could come up with a rule/chart where fragmentation patterns are developed and the number of fragments the target is hit with and how much damage each fragment does etc but that would be to time consuming to use in play.

Just my two cents, why make make things overly complicated, combat can, at times, be slow enough already.

[guardiandashi]

If a grenade goes off at someone's feet it doesn't mean he is hit everywhere - he won't be hit in both feet, both legs, both arms, both hands, the torso and the head, plus his rifle, plus his pistol, plus his belt, etc etc.

Damage is to main body to simplify the game process, I imagine someone could come up with a rule/chart where fragmentation patterns are developed and the number of fragments the target is hit with and how much damage each fragment does etc but that would be to time consuming to use in play.

Just my two cents, why make make things overly complicated, combat can, at times, be slow enough already.

to expand upon this.
My view is that the "main body" is really an aggregate of the average damage taking of the structure in question in many ways so by applying explosion damage to multiple locations you are in effect "doubling up" IE when the borg in the previous examples has a grenade or missile detonate at his feet the "main body" damage done IS reflecting that his feet and legs are damaged along with his torso. to go with that assumption technically you should consider multiple locations depleted as a rough approximation of the % of main body damage done.

the problem is that this adds tremendously to the bookkeeping required without a significant increase on the "realism"

to go with a horrible example how many people actually play FATAL vs palladium games vs steve jacksons GURPS game system. FATAL is incredibly detailed it goes into such things as sexual organ size. for probably 99.9% of peoples games it just DOES NOT MATTER.

[Kagashi]

Paired Weapon, Quick Drawing, Dual grenades thrown at the feet of all opponents... He'd be a Crazy. He'd be Captain Jamie "Kaboom" Hynaman. Jamie likes big booms. The worst thing to be in such a game would be a Borg. As Borgs would be losing very expensive feet left and right.

You think this type of logic isnt already present in the game currently? There will always be munchkins. Thats why there are Rahu Men with paired weapons, wielding fury blades and eating maxpary mushrooms out there. But that doesnt mean that character isnt vulnerable to other things.

Regardless, this character would have to contend with the potential of collateral damage to innocents and teammates (or himself). He would be outmatched by any flying power armor or opponent. He would easily be out ranged by somebody with a simple L-20 pulse rifle. Plus, explosives are expensive compared to energy weapons. While taking advantage of one rule, doesnt mean its an end all ultimate character. I really dont see it as a problem.

Anyway, why even have to use grenades if you are going to target borg feet? Why not just do it with a JA-12 from 4000 feet away? Does more damage and gets to the point faster. You dont need explosives at all, let alone a splash damage rule, to implement this tactic.

[Kagashi]

If a grenade goes off at someone's feet it doesn't mean he is hit everywhere - he won't be hit in both feet, both legs, both arms, both hands, the torso and the head, plus his rifle, plus his pistol, plus his belt, etc etc.

Damage is to main body to simplify the game process, I imagine someone could come up with a rule/chart where fragmentation patterns are developed and the number of fragments the target is hit with and how much damage each fragment does etc but that would be to time consuming to use in play.

Just my two cents, why make make things overly complicated, combat can, at times, be slow enough already.

to expand upon this.
My view is that the "main body" is really an aggregate of the average damage taking of the structure in question in many ways so by applying explosion damage to multiple locations you are in effect "doubling up" IE when the borg in the previous examples has a grenade or missile detonate at his feet the "main body" damage done IS reflecting that his feet and legs are damaged along with his torso. to go with that assumption technically you should consider multiple locations depleted as a rough approximation of the % of main body damage done.

the problem is that this adds tremendously to the bookkeeping required without a significant increase on the "realism"

to go with a horrible example how many people actually play FATAL vs palladium games vs steve jacksons GURPS game system. FATAL is incredibly detailed it goes into such things as sexual organ size. for probably 99.9% of peoples games it just DOES NOT MATTER.

Only for the GM, which I accepted the responsibility for. As I described in great length is the previous 50 posts.

[Blue_Lion]

Paired Weapon, Quick Drawing, Dual grenades thrown at the feet of all opponents... He'd be a Crazy. He'd be Captain Jamie "Kaboom" Hynaman. Jamie likes big booms. The worst thing to be in such a game would be a Borg. As Borgs would be losing very expensive feet left and right.

You think this type of logic isnt already present in the game currently? There will always be munchkins. Thats why there are Rahu Men with paired weapons, wielding fury blades and eating maxpary mushrooms out there. But that doesnt mean that character isnt vulnerable to other things.

Regardless, this character would have to contend with the potential of collateral damage to innocents and teammates (or himself). He would be outmatched by any flying power armor or opponent. He would easily be out ranged by somebody with a simple L-20 pulse rifle. Plus, explosives are expensive compared to energy weapons. While taking advantage of one rule, doesnt mean its an end all ultimate character. I really dont see it as a problem.

Anyway, why even have to use grenades if you are going to target borg feet? Why not just do it with a JA-12 from 4000 feet away? Does more damage and gets to the point faster. You dont need explosives at all, let alone a splash damage rule, to implement this tactic.

Because targeting feet from 4000 feet away requires a called shot using the flawed method he would cripple the Borg in one shot and most other things without taking penalty of called shot.

[HWalsh]

Paired Weapon, Quick Drawing, Dual grenades thrown at the feet of all opponents... He'd be a Crazy. He'd be Captain Jamie "Kaboom" Hynaman. Jamie likes big booms. The worst thing to be in such a game would be a Borg. As Borgs would be losing very expensive feet left and right.

You think this type of logic isnt already present in the game currently? There will always be munchkins. Thats why there are Rahu Men with paired weapons, wielding fury blades and eating maxpary mushrooms out there. But that doesnt mean that character isnt vulnerable to other things.

Regardless, this character would have to contend with the potential of collateral damage to innocents and teammates (or himself). He would be outmatched by any flying power armor or opponent. He would easily be out ranged by somebody with a simple L-20 pulse rifle. Plus, explosives are expensive compared to energy weapons. While taking advantage of one rule, doesnt mean its an end all ultimate character. I really dont see it as a problem.

Anyway, why even have to use grenades if you are going to target borg feet? Why not just do it with a JA-12 from 4000 feet away? Does more damage and gets to the point faster. You dont need explosives at all, let alone a splash damage rule, to implement this tactic.

1. Cost - Grenades are not expensive.

NG-57 Heavy Duty Ion Blaster, 8,000 Credits
1 E-Clip (5,000-6,000 Credits, or 1,200 Credits for a recharge.)

Minimum possible investment to start with? (1 gun and 1 E-Clip)
13,000 Credits

1 Heavy High Explosive Grenade? 275 Credits.

The Ion Blaster gets 10 Rounds for every 1,200 Credits pumped into it.

You get 4.36 of the second best grenade possible for the same price. And you don't need the launcher. For the cost of 1 NG-57 and 1 E-Clip you can get 47 (over 4 times the amount of ammo) Heavy High Explosive Grenades. So... The only way the Ion Blaster becomes the better purchase is after you have used 47 Ion Blaster Shots, which is 3 additional E-Clip recharges (3,600 Credits) on top of the initial cost (13,000 Credits) Meaning at around 16,600 Credits in, you start to become more cost effective with the Ion Blaster... Well... Kind of, because for that same cost investment you get 60 Grenades, and then there is the issue of that needing another clip to reach, meaning you have to spend $1,200 more, which is 4 more Grenades (so 64 Grenades now, you have to spend another 1,200 Credits to reach 70) and at that point they are at 68 Grenades, and that is the point where the Ion Blaster pulls ahead.

You do lose money from potential salvage with grenades, so there is that.

But to say that Grenades are cost prohibitive? I'm going with not really on that one.

2. Why not just called shot it?

Well, I mean, I could spend 2 actions making an Aimed Shot, at a penalty, to try to shoot the Borg's foot... I mean, I have a higher chance to miss, and he can easily dodge it... Whereas I can just throw a grenade at his feet, he gets both feet damaged, even if he takes half of the damage from the above grenade (4d6 so 12 damage) he's taking 6, 3 if he rolls with it... And if I double throw, well, he's taking 6 minimum, if he wants to burn actions... If not he ends up on his stumps... Then I can finish him off with rifle rounds from outside of his effective range of fire.

-----

Edit:
I guess the point I am getting at is "Fun" with this method.

About 8 years ago I was working for a company where we were tasked with making "the" most realistic space combat game we could come up with.

So... We used common sense.

The game kind of resembled a submarine game. Combat was held at insane ranges. You never were anywhere near visual sight with any target. Everything was "locate target, don't give away location, and hit them with the biggest missile we could get." Going as "realistic" as we could. We had 2 scientists from NASA on the team who were more or less outlining things.

You know what?

The game sucked. It totally wasn't fun. It was the opposite of fun. It was bad. It was never released.

The moral of the story?

Realism isn't fun for anyone.

If Rifts was "realistic" in regards to the single rule that you institute then all of the game world would be shaped around it. Glitterboys? Gone. Relics. Useless compared to much better methods of combat. Boomguns would be nothing compared to missiles. Grenade Launchers would out-sell M.D. energy weapons and railguns. The CS? There wouldn't be a CS. They would have been steamrolled by the Deebees and their human allies. Chi-Town? Chi-Town would fall in about 20 minutes to an attack by the FoM, from hundreds of miles away, without much of a chance.

Its just... You know... Realism in a setting like this is bad.

[Kagashi]

Paired Weapon, Quick Drawing, Dual grenades thrown at the feet of all opponents... He'd be a Crazy. He'd be Captain Jamie "Kaboom" Hynaman. Jamie likes big booms. The worst thing to be in such a game would be a Borg. As Borgs would be losing very expensive feet left and right.

You think this type of logic isnt already present in the game currently? There will always be munchkins. Thats why there are Rahu Men with paired weapons, wielding fury blades and eating maxpary mushrooms out there. But that doesnt mean that character isnt vulnerable to other things.

Regardless, this character would have to contend with the potential of collateral damage to innocents and teammates (or himself). He would be outmatched by any flying power armor or opponent. He would easily be out ranged by somebody with a simple L-20 pulse rifle. Plus, explosives are expensive compared to energy weapons. While taking advantage of one rule, doesnt mean its an end all ultimate character. I really dont see it as a problem.

Anyway, why even have to use grenades if you are going to target borg feet? Why not just do it with a JA-12 from 4000 feet away? Does more damage and gets to the point faster. You dont need explosives at all, let alone a splash damage rule, to implement this tactic.

1. Cost - Grenades are not expensive.

NG-57 Heavy Duty Ion Blaster, 8,000 Credits
1 E-Clip (5,000-6,000 Credits, or 1,200 Credits for a recharge.)

Minimum possible investment to start with? (1 gun and 1 E-Clip)
13,000 Credits

1 Heavy High Explosive Grenade? 275 Credits.

The Ion Blaster gets 10 Rounds for every 1,200 Credits pumped into it.

You get 4.36 of the second best grenade possible for the same price. And you don't need the launcher. For the cost of 1 NG-57 and 1 E-Clip you can get 47 (over 4 times the amount of ammo) Heavy High Explosive Grenades. So... The only way the Ion Blaster becomes the better purchase is after you have used 47 Ion Blaster Shots, which is 3 additional E-Clip recharges (3,600 Credits) on top of the initial cost (13,000 Credits) Meaning at around 16,600 Credits in, you start to become more cost effective with the Ion Blaster... Well... Kind of, because for that same cost investment you get 60 Grenades, and then there is the issue of that needing another clip to reach, meaning you have to spend $1,200 more, which is 4 more Grenades (so 64 Grenades now, you have to spend another 1,200 Credits to reach 70) and at that point they are at 68 Grenades, and that is the point where the Ion Blaster pulls ahead.

You do lose money from potential salvage with grenades, so there is that.

But to say that Grenades are cost prohibitive? I'm going with not really on that one.

LOL. Okay, you go ahead and carry your 68 grenades at a range of 40 feet (100 if you have WP Targeting...okay 130 feet since you said you would be a Crazy) of throwing power. Ill stick with the way more career cost effective, 500 foot ranged, ion blaster, and not be encumbered by 68 rattling grenades weighing me down, because chances are, a character is going to survive longer than 68 strike rolls. You may have "proved" the initial cost would be better for the nades with the cheapest MD weapon in the game, but the over all life span of a character is going to far surpass that 68th shot, which is why I still say it is more economic to wield energy weapons. That recharged eclip is going to give me 3D6 MD at 500 feet for a cost of 120 credits. Unlike the nade which costs 275 credits a toss (at 130 feet max).

But since realism isn't obviously an aspect you care anything about, pointing out the reality that nobody in their right mind would be carrying that is pretty moot (i guess unless you are a crazy, which you said your character would be). Nor could they even carry it psychically at the same time. Let alone the weight of each grenade weighing you down (about 1 pound per nade? no reference I could find but mini missiles are about 40 pounds for a box of 24, so half that weight?), there is no physical place to put each grenade on your body (unless you have an RUE boom gun magazine of holding)...but you could easily place 7 eclips and an ion blaster.

2. Why not just called shot it?

Well, I mean, I could spend 2 actions making an Aimed Shot, at a penalty, to try to shoot the Borg's foot... I mean, I have a higher chance to miss, and he can easily dodge it... Whereas I can just throw a grenade at his feet, he gets both feet damaged, even if he takes half of the damage from the above grenade (4d6 so 12 damage) he's taking 6, 3 if he rolls with it... And if I double throw, well, he's taking 6 minimum, if he wants to burn actions... If not he ends up on his stumps... Then I can finish him off with rifle rounds from outside of his effective range of fire.

Please explain the game mechanics as to why a person couldnt dodge an attack targeting the ground under them. Folks dive for cover from grenades all the time in the movies and in real life (as a matter of a fact, most explosives have a frag pattern that goes up and out, that means if you lie down, you have a greater chance of not getting hit, but even I am not going into that amount of detail and assuming the frag pattern for all Rifts explosives makes a nice neat circle). That's a dodge. Your grenade only has a BR of 6 feet. A borg has a speed of 132 (minimum) (132 x 5 = 660 YARDS per melee round / number of attacks [say 6 at first level] which equals clearing 110 YARDS per attack, which is required to burn during a dodge) and can leap 15 feet across in one jump. He can clear your blast radius with one dodge, be it pure speed or jumping power. Targeting the ground or targeting him is irrelevant. Either way, he is no longer where he was when you initiated the attack. Might want to double fist that second nade in the most logical dodge direction to try and get him with something (but WP Targeting says the second thrown object must be at the same target).

Course you could (and should) wait until he has committed to an attack and could not dodge, making the attack valid. But Im still floored when people assume you cant dodge an attack directed right under where you are standing.

(Note: a magnetic grenade hitting the main body...now we are talking. No matter where he moves to, that thing will go off and the BR may still hit his feet, achieving your goal)

Also, please explain why specifically targeting the ground under the borg wouldn't be a called shot as well. You are specifically trying to hit a precise area. That is a called shot and still burns 2 attacks.

Be it grenade at the ground under his feet or by gun with at the foot itself, its still costing you 2 attacks, and he can still dodge the attack (assuming he saw it coming). There is no game mechanic that makes throwing the nade any different, except having a tenth the range of the Ion Blaster and the fact that dodging energy blasts are done at -10, but not nades. This borg has a better chance of evading the nade attack than the ion blast attack.

Realism isn't fun for anyone.

Except for those whom it is. Clearly you wouldn't want to sign up for one of my games. You would not have fun and would only create work for me, which isnt fun for me either. There are plenty of people out there whom think like one or the other of us. Just stick with them.

[eliakon]

<snip>

Please explain the game mechanics as to why a person couldnt dodge an attack targeting the ground under them.

Technically RAW you can only dodge an attack that is against you. Now your GM can let you dodge others sure but RAW you have to beat the strike roll of your attacker. You cant dodge the attack of someone elses attack...like that poor rock. Now the borg could roll with impact to reduce the blast...but he cant dodge the attack itself.

Folks dive for cover from grenades all the time in the movies and in real life (as a matter of a fact, most explosives have a frag pattern that goes up and out, that means if you lie down, you have a greater chance of not getting hit, but even I am not going into that amount of detail and assuming the frag pattern for all Rifts explosives makes a nice neat circle). That's a dodge. Your grenade only has a BR of 6 feet. A borg has a speed of 132 (minimum) (132 x 5 = 660 YARDS per melee round / number of attacks [say 6 at first level] which equals clearing 110 YARDS per attack, which is required to burn during a dodge) and can leap 15 feet across in one jump. He can clear your blast radius with one dodge, be it pure speed or jumping power. Targeting the ground or targeting him is irrelevant. Either way, he is no longer where he was when you initiated the attack. Might want to double fist that second nade in the most logical dodge direction to try and get him with something (but WP Targeting says the second thrown object must be at the same target).

Sure if you allow him the non RAW option of dodging the attack sure....

Course you could (and should) wait until he has committed to an attack and could not dodge, making the attack valid. But Im still floored when people assume you cant dodge an attack directed right under where you are standing.

Its because the RAW are, as we are pointing out not logical....

(Note: a magnetic grenade hitting the main body...now we are talking. No matter where he moves to, that thing will go off and the BR may still hit his feet, achieving your goal)

Also, please explain why specifically targeting the ground under the borg wouldn't be a called shot as well. You are specifically trying to hit a precise area. That is a called shot and still burns 2 attacks.

Nah, I am just hitting the main body of that rock there. Its just a rock after all, I just need to hit its main body

Be it grenade at the ground under his feet or by gun with at the foot itself, its still costing you 2 attacks, and he can still dodge the attack (assuming he saw it coming). There is no game mechanic that makes throwing the nade any different, except having a tenth the range of the Ion Blaster and the fact that dodging energy blasts are done at -10, but not nades. This borg has a better chance of evading the nade attack than the ion blast attack.

So 1) you allow people to dodge attacks that are not leveled against them, we note this. 2) just simo attack him with the grenade, poof no dodge 3) its not a 2 action attack any more than 'I hit the borg' is a called shot

And if its a human in non sealed armor then they just died....since they lost all their sdc and hp.....(there are no locational HP in RAW after all. And creating a new rule to fix a hole...suggests there is a hole to fix...)

[Tiree]

To me the fix is, implement splash damage rules, assign hit locations to biological targets and treat everything the same. Or remove all references to other damage locations on tech based targets and just use main body for everything. Either way...just treat everything the same.

I pretty much do the latter. I use hit locations only for called shots IE when a player is trying to do something spectacular like shoot out an eye, or do 'Head Shots' Otherwise Main Body and/or Shields

Do you just use the main body? Or do you add up all the locations into one value?

I just use the Main Body. I see it as the Generic "Hit Points" of D&D

[Killer Cyborg]

<snip>

Please explain the game mechanics as to why a person couldnt dodge an attack targeting the ground under them.

Technically RAW you can only dodge an attack that is against you. Now your GM can let you dodge others sure but RAW you have to beat the strike roll of your attacker. You cant dodge the attack of someone elses attack...like that poor rock. Now the borg could roll with impact to reduce the blast...but he cant dodge the attack itself.

If you want to go 100% RAW, you can't actually make most characters, and you can't do anything in combat when your init comes up except to make attacks that include rolling a D20.
So RAW really isn't the way to go.

That being said, I don't think that you're correct.
A defender can dodge any time a strike roll is made against them.
You're making the assumption that there is only one Defender per attack, and that's never specified that I'm aware of.

We know that a character can Parry an attack made at another person (RGMG 33).
We know that a character can Roll With Impact any time they're struck by an explosion, including if they're only caught in an blast radius.

I see no reason to believe that it is against the rules to Dodge the blast radius of an attack made against another person, nor any reason to believe that the strike roll strictly applies to only the one target that is chosen to be hit directly by the explosive.