Cyber Knights and Fencing

[Shark_Force]

it wins you initiative. it allows 2 actions to back away for those that know the technique. being able to spend 2 actions on getting away is not always a great thing, but it can be.

even the fact that you can use it to back flip escape, make an attack (if you have something ranged), and then after your enemy moves in you can keep moving away with back flip escape is significant, if for example you have more attacks per melee. it takes an action for them to close, no matter how much faster they are than you, so they spend an action getting close, and then you back flip escape until they're out of actions and you have them at your mercy.

it is, therefore, a maneuver that lets you gain an advantage, or escape from a fight that you don't really want to be in after they've gotten into the fight. how is that "no reason for the maneuver to exist"?

As opposed to: I back away, if I have more movement, you approach, don't reach me, I shoot, you approach, I move away, you approach, don't reach me, I shoot.

Which makes your opponent burn 2 actions just reaching you.

Which, unlike backflip, can't fail on a poor roll

there is no roll on backflip escape that I can see. nothing indicates any sort of opposed test. you just automatically succeed, and whether your opponent is faster than you or not, it takes them an action to get in close again. in a world where you may be an unaugmented human fighting juicers, crazies, dog boys, people in power armour, wild animals (native and alien) and d-bees or monsters with a naturally high speed attribute, having an escape that works against enemies that you can't outrun sounds pretty useful to me.

an action that can buy you an immediate next action and prevent your enemy from attacking you this round also sounds quite useful for any sort of spellcaster that may want to use a level 6-10 spell. 2 uninterrupted actions could mean your enemy (or enemies) is (or are) spending the next couple rounds being thrown all over the place by a powerful wind and having his gear scattered to who knows where. not having those 2 uninterrupted actions could mean that you just spent a bunch of PPE, then got tossed on the ground and both of the actions required to cast your spell, another action from being thrown, possibly losing initiative, and the PPE to cast the spell... which is a pretty big difference). or, for that matter, even if there's a 1 action spell you want to use which cannot normally be interrupted, you may not want to be adjacent to your target. blinding flash is *amazing* at those ranges, but it gets a lot less amazing when you're also hitting yourself with it. you can also use it to avoid simultaneous attacks, as another example. backflip away, and since it's not an attack they don't get their simultaneous attack they were hoping to disrupt your spell with.

if it wasn't so far down the martial arts HtH table, I might even care enough to pick up better than basic HtH on a magic user just for that utility.

[HWalsh]

it wins you initiative. it allows 2 actions to back away for those that know the technique. being able to spend 2 actions on getting away is not always a great thing, but it can be.

even the fact that you can use it to back flip escape, make an attack (if you have something ranged), and then after your enemy moves in you can keep moving away with back flip escape is significant, if for example you have more attacks per melee. it takes an action for them to close, no matter how much faster they are than you, so they spend an action getting close, and then you back flip escape until they're out of actions and you have them at your mercy.

it is, therefore, a maneuver that lets you gain an advantage, or escape from a fight that you don't really want to be in after they've gotten into the fight. how is that "no reason for the maneuver to exist"?

As opposed to: I back away, if I have more movement, you approach, don't reach me, I shoot, you approach, I move away, you approach, don't reach me, I shoot.

Which makes your opponent burn 2 actions just reaching you.

Which, unlike backflip, can't fail on a poor roll

there is no roll on backflip escape that I can see. nothing indicates any sort of opposed test. you just automatically succeed, and whether your opponent is faster than you or not, it takes them an action to get in close again. in a world where you may be an unaugmented human fighting juicers, crazies, dog boys, people in power armour, wild animals (native and alien) and d-bees or monsters with a naturally high speed attribute, having an escape that works against enemies that you can't outrun sounds pretty useful to me.

an action that can buy you an immediate next action and prevent your enemy from attacking you this round also sounds quite useful for any sort of spellcaster that may want to use a level 6-10 spell. 2 uninterrupted actions could mean your enemy (or enemies) is (or are) spending the next couple rounds being thrown all over the place by a powerful wind and having his gear scattered to who knows where. not having those 2 uninterrupted actions could mean that you just spent a bunch of PPE, then got tossed on the ground and both of the actions required to cast your spell, another action from being thrown, possibly losing initiative, and the PPE to cast the spell... which is a pretty big difference). or, for that matter, even if there's a 1 action spell you want to use which cannot normally be interrupted, you may not want to be adjacent to your target. blinding flash is *amazing* at those ranges, but it gets a lot less amazing when you're also hitting yourself with it. you can also use it to avoid simultaneous attacks, as another example. backflip away, and since it's not an attack they don't get their simultaneous attack they were hoping to disrupt your spell with.

if it wasn't so far down the martial arts HtH table, I might even care enough to pick up better than basic HtH on a magic user just for that utility.

Take acrobatics or gymnastics.

[Shark_Force]

Take acrobatics or gymnastics.

neither give you backflip escape. it's a special maneuver, granted (or not) by your HtH skill. as I hinted earlier, martial arts is the cheapest HtH skill that grants it at all, and that only comes at level 8.

[HWalsh]

Its only 1D6 id give it to them

But it is not just 1D6...

By picking up a cheap skill a 1st level Cyberknight effectively doubles the power of his Psi-Sword.

A psi-sword that does less damage than almost any other M.D. weapon in the game. Also, again, by the RUE, by every logical interpretation, extrapolation, and explanation is also how the system works. It puts the Cyber-Knight on par with a Vibro-Sword or a Dog Boy's Vibro-Claw...

I think that you'd have a legitimate claim about that being an issue if it continued to double the damage of the Psi-Sword, but the Cyber-Knight's Psi-Sword is monumentally garbage compared to everything else. If you aren't a Major Psychic, and if you don't take Fencing, it is so worthless there is no point in using it unless you are completely unarmed... Note that this weapon is one of the primary symbols of the order too... So... Yeah... Its 1d6...

It doubles it at 1st level, but nothing beyond that, meaning as time goes on it becomes less and less important.

Not so, it gains D6 damage as you level, I don't recall the progression off the top of my head. Plus, if you end up rolling Major Psionic on top of it, you get to add even more D6. So by 12th level you can be rolling a lot of D6. Still, since its melee, opponents not only get tt Dodge, but parry as well, so your still likely better off to try and use guns.

Level 3 you have 3d6 if a Major Psionic Cyber-Knight.

At high levels you can get to 5d6.

Its 1d6 from Fencing the fencing bonus never gets higher

[alogan]

Speaking of which, the cyber knight section in RUE gives different levels for increases in psi-sword damage for master psychics. Are these in ADDITION to the general damage increase levels given to all cyber knights, or are they SUBSTITUTIONS?

[HWalsh]

Speaking of which, the cyber knight section in RUE gives different levels for increases in psi-sword damage for master psychics. Are these in ADDITION to the general damage increase levels given to all cyber knights, or are they SUBSTITUTIONS?

Those are in addition to.

A Master Psychic Cyber-Knight's Psi-Sword does the following:

Level / Damage
1 / 1d6
2 / 2d6
3 / 3d6
4 / 3d6
5 / 4d6
6 / 5d6
7 / 5d6
8 / 5d6
9 / 7d6
10 / 7d6
11 / 7d6
12 / 8d6
13 / 9d6
14 / 10d6
15 / 11d6

A non-Master Psychic does:

1 / 1d6
2 / 1d6
3 / 2d6
4 / 2d6
5 / 2d6
6 / 3d6
7 / 3d6
8 / 3d6
9 / 4d6
10 / 4d6
11 / 4d6
12 / 5d6
13 / 5d6
14 / 5d6
15 / 6d6

Which is dwarfed by the Mind Melter, who gets:

1 / --
2 / --
3 / 4d6
4 / 6d6
5 / 6d6
6 / 6d6
7 / 8d6
8 / 8d6
9 / 10d6
10 / 10d6
11 / 10d6
12 / 12d6
13 / 12d6
14 / 12d6
15 / 14d6


Personally... I do think that Palladium needs to beef up the Cyber-Knight still a little more... I think they kind of get shafted still a little too much... Though some of the story hooks in the Cyber-Knight books, if they add to the meta-plot, and give Cyber-Knights something like a Shemarrian Rail Gun as standard equipment... *wince* that could get nasty quick...

Imagine if Cyber-Knights start getting a 2d6x10 ranged rail gun out of the starting gate? Eew.

[Shark_Force]

Personally... I do think that Palladium needs to beef up the Cyber-Knight still a little more... I think they kind of get shafted still a little too much... Though some of the story hooks in the Cyber-Knight books, if they add to the meta-plot, and give Cyber-Knights something like a Shemarrian Rail Gun as standard equipment... *wince* that could get nasty quick...

Imagine if Cyber-Knights start getting a 2d6x10 ranged rail gun out of the starting gate? Eew.

cyber-knights are fine as is. not because of the psi-sword or anything, mind you, but they have a huge amount of skills, the ability to use TW devices, and the new cyber-knight combat, while i don't feel it fits their theme terribly well (i don't feel like anti-tech should be their specialty, but it is) is in fact a very powerful ability that applies against many of the more frightening opponents in the game.

also, for the most part, ignore anything in the siege on tolkeen series unless it's published again elsewhere. i'm pretty sure that was one of the most actively disliked projects palladium has ever done.

so, for example, that part where the cyber-knights have somehow managed to get their hands on a bunch of super high-tech shemarrian rail guns with the most advanced military-grade anti-tampering systems available to golden age technology installed, and then decided that the best use of said rail guns was (rather than, say, making the technology available to other cyber-knights and giving them an obscenely large advantage in weapons technology which they could use to help in their efforts to improve people's lives, since they obviously had someone capable of understanding their design) to modify them into jousting lances so they could screw around in a jousting tournament in the middle of nowhere for no good reason?

i would recommend ignoring that entirely, and assume that if cyber-knights do indeed host jousting tournaments (whether in the middle of the largest war the continent has seen in centuries or elsewhere) they probably just use wooden lances.

[Kagashi]

*psi sword comparison*

Personally... I do think that Palladium needs to beef up the Cyber-Knight still a little more... I think they kind of get shafted still a little too much...

Wow, I never really looked at how the CK gets shafted compared to a standard Master Psychic who can select psi-sword. Sure, he cant get it till level 3, but in the end, the Mind Melter is more efficient and the CK is supposed to be the master of the Psi Sword. So yeah, that needs to be looked at.

I can see a non-psychic CK having a weaker psy sword simply because he should have psi anyway, but crap, why shaft the main weapon of the CK compared to some random master psi who receives no specialized training?

But IMHO, I think the OLD RMB cyber knights were good the way that they were before SoT. Post-SoT CKs are more powerful for the sake of being more powerful. There is no trade off like a Juicer or Crazy has to get the powers they have. CKs are now just awesome just because. The old CKs had just enough power for what they were. But PB gave CKs more awesomeness during the SoT series, and when they did, they went the wrong direction. CKs are supposed to be champions against evil, and with all the demons running around, why not develop anti-supernatural powers? Not anti tech powers...

The point of a CKs psi sword doing less damage than some random schmo just makes me wish Rifts 2nd Edition will come out and totally revamp the CK completely even more than before. CKs have so much potential to be cool for the right reasons, but they just presently aren't.

[Alrik Vas]

I made an anti-supernatural variant. As they leveled they could parry huge objects, gain supernatural strength and they got the paladin demon death blow. Later they could convert their HP into MDC.

[HWalsh]

Well, as much as I wish Cyber-Knights were given more anti-range abilities (so they could use the sword more often) it does bear noting that the Cyber-Knight can theoretically surpass the Melter with a double Psi-Sword strike, which the Melter cannot do.

At level 12, if a Master Psychic the Cyber-Knight can do 16d6 with a dual strike. 18d6 with Fencing. Up to 24d6 at level 15.

[Athos]

Well, as much as I wish Cyber-Knights were given more anti-range abilities (so they could use the sword more often) it does bear noting that the Cyber-Knight can theoretically surpass the Melter with a double Psi-Sword strike, which the Melter cannot do.

At level 12, if a Master Psychic the Cyber-Knight can do 16d6 with a dual strike. 18d6 with Fencing. Up to 24d6 at level 15.

Why do you think a mind melter cannot summon two swords, assuming he pays the isp cost?

[Shark_Force]

to be fair, the cyber-knight's psi-sword *is* a lot more useful in other ways.

for example, it costs a cyber-knight 0 actions to summon a psi-sword, or two. for a mind melter, it takes 1 melee round each.

a cyber-knight's psi-sword lasts until he doesn't want it to last any more. for a mind melter, not so much.

a cyber-knight's psi-sword costs 0 ISP to generate. again, for the mind melter... not so much.

a cyber-knight is also actually suited at all to close-up melee combat. for example, a cyber-knight has tons of skills to choose from, can pick the better types of hand-to-hand combat, gets useful attribute bonuses and combat bonuses, gains paired weapons for free early on, and has the skills to actually grab a bunch of physical skills (and indeed starts with several) to provide bonuses to strike, dodge, parry, etc, as well as related stuff (like mounted combat skills) while still covering basics. a mind melter has about half as many OCC skills (most not useful for combat), and half as many OCC related skills, and should probably spend some of those on being able to use the weapons and equipment they start with...

while i am relatively disinclined to live in terror of a melee combatant as compared to a ranged one, i would *much* rather face a mind melter reduced to melee combat as his only option than face a cyber-knight in the same situation. frankly, if a mind melter has decided to bust out the paired psi-swords (after waiting two full melee rounds), i for one would be inclined to feel grateful that he didn't just use super telekinesis to pick me up and leave me helpless, or bio-manipulation to incapacitate me for several rounds, etc. instead, he has chosen something that i can simply run away from with relative ease.

(not to mention if you're looking for sustained damage on a cyber-knight (edit: mind melter), just hit stuff with super telekinesis... you can wield 1 object per level, so a level 5 mind melter *could* dual-wield psi-swords for 6d6 each (theoretically; they'd need to find a way to get paired weapons first, of course). or, that same mind melter could use super telekinesis to wield 5 melee weapons, each of which is comparable or better than a psi-sword, and can be used out to 500 feet away, with a lower ISP cost, and only requiring one action to set up (though obviously it does require preparation in the form of having 5 useful melee weapons on hand).

[HWalsh]

to be fair, the cyber-knight's psi-sword *is* a lot more useful in other ways.

for example, it costs a cyber-knight 0 actions to summon a psi-sword, or two. for a mind melter, it takes 1 melee round each.

a cyber-knight's psi-sword lasts until he doesn't want it to last any more. for a mind melter, not so much.

a cyber-knight's psi-sword costs 0 ISP to generate. again, for the mind melter... not so much.

a cyber-knight is also actually suited at all to close-up melee combat. for example, a cyber-knight has tons of skills to choose from, can pick the better types of hand-to-hand combat, gets useful attribute bonuses and combat bonuses, gains paired weapons for free early on, and has the skills to actually grab a bunch of physical skills (and indeed starts with several) to provide bonuses to strike, dodge, parry, etc, as well as related stuff (like mounted combat skills) while still covering basics. a mind melter has about half as many OCC skills (most not useful for combat), and half as many OCC related skills, and should probably spend some of those on being able to use the weapons and equipment they start with...

while i am relatively disinclined to live in terror of a melee combatant as compared to a ranged one, i would *much* rather face a mind melter reduced to melee combat as his only option than face a cyber-knight in the same situation. frankly, if a mind melter has decided to bust out the paired psi-swords (after waiting two full melee rounds), i for one would be inclined to feel grateful that he didn't just use super telekinesis to pick me up and leave me helpless, or bio-manipulation to incapacitate me for several rounds, etc. instead, he has chosen something that i can simply run away from with relative ease.

(not to mention if you're looking for sustained damage on a cyber-knight, just hit stuff with super telekinesis... you can wield 1 object per level, so a level 5 mind melter *could* dual-wield psi-swords for 6d6 each (theoretically; they'd need to find a way to get paired weapons first, of course). or, that same mind melter could use super telekinesis to wield 5 melee weapons, each of which is comparable or better than a psi-sword, and can be used out to 500 feet away, with a lower ISP cost, and only requiring one action to set up (though obviously it does require preparation in the form of having 5 useful melee weapons on hand).

Pretty sure a Mind Melter can't. I'm on the road now so I can't look but Cyber-Knights can't do it until level 3 and have a 0 ISP cost. The rules don't say "They cannot summon a second until level 3" they get the ability to summon a second at level 3. Meaning unless your class says you can, you can't.

Also you can't, to my knowledge, keep a Psi-Sword active unless you're holding it in your hand. It has no mass, there is nothing to TK.

[HWalsh]

Honestly they need to give the Cyber-Knight the ability to stop people from running away. Rifts really over-nerfs melee as it is.

[Shark_Force]

to be fair, the cyber-knight's psi-sword *is* a lot more useful in other ways.

for example, it costs a cyber-knight 0 actions to summon a psi-sword, or two. for a mind melter, it takes 1 melee round each.

a cyber-knight's psi-sword lasts until he doesn't want it to last any more. for a mind melter, not so much.

a cyber-knight's psi-sword costs 0 ISP to generate. again, for the mind melter... not so much.

a cyber-knight is also actually suited at all to close-up melee combat. for example, a cyber-knight has tons of skills to choose from, can pick the better types of hand-to-hand combat, gets useful attribute bonuses and combat bonuses, gains paired weapons for free early on, and has the skills to actually grab a bunch of physical skills (and indeed starts with several) to provide bonuses to strike, dodge, parry, etc, as well as related stuff (like mounted combat skills) while still covering basics. a mind melter has about half as many OCC skills (most not useful for combat), and half as many OCC related skills, and should probably spend some of those on being able to use the weapons and equipment they start with...

while i am relatively disinclined to live in terror of a melee combatant as compared to a ranged one, i would *much* rather face a mind melter reduced to melee combat as his only option than face a cyber-knight in the same situation. frankly, if a mind melter has decided to bust out the paired psi-swords (after waiting two full melee rounds), i for one would be inclined to feel grateful that he didn't just use super telekinesis to pick me up and leave me helpless, or bio-manipulation to incapacitate me for several rounds, etc. instead, he has chosen something that i can simply run away from with relative ease.

(not to mention if you're looking for sustained damage on a cyber-knight, just hit stuff with super telekinesis... you can wield 1 object per level, so a level 5 mind melter *could* dual-wield psi-swords for 6d6 each (theoretically; they'd need to find a way to get paired weapons first, of course). or, that same mind melter could use super telekinesis to wield 5 melee weapons, each of which is comparable or better than a psi-sword, and can be used out to 500 feet away, with a lower ISP cost, and only requiring one action to set up (though obviously it does require preparation in the form of having 5 useful melee weapons on hand).

Pretty sure a Mind Melter can't. I'm on the road now so I can't look but Cyber-Knights can't do it until level 3 and have a 0 ISP cost. The rules don't say "They cannot summon a second until level 3" they get the ability to summon a second at level 3. Meaning unless your class says you can, you can't.

Also you can't, to my knowledge, keep a Psi-Sword active unless you're holding it in your hand. It has no mass, there is nothing to TK.

(minor side note: that last paragraph in the part you quoted should have been about using super telekinesis for mind melters, who actually have an option for super telekinesis, and not cyber-knights, who do not - i had cyber-knights on the brain at the time).

i don't think it's reasonable to consider rules regarding how a cyber-knight's psi-sword does or does not function to be statements applicable to all psi-swords in general, considering that they explicitly work differently in several ways.

and no, they don't need to give cyber-knights the ability to stop people from running away. melee is not over-nerfed. it is exactly where it should be for a game of this type. there is a *reason* why modern militaries use a lot of guns, and not a lot of swords. there is a reason why, even though most every soldier trained for modern warfare is trained formelee combat of some form or another, and yet consider their firearm to be their primary weapon.

melee has some uses. and it has drawbacks. it is not designed to be "balanced" as equal with ranged combat, rather it is simply a form of combat which is sometimes useful and sometimes not, and you should use it when it is useful, but when it is not you should use something else.

for this reason, a standard starting cyber-knight starts off guaranteed with 2 modern and 2 ancient WPs (one of which will most likely be sword, although their psi-sword can in fact be just about any melee weapon they desire), and 2 guns (including energy weapons) plus extra ammunition in their starting equipment. they have a psi-sword; nothing indicates they are expected to use it to the exclusion of all else.

[HWalsh]

to be fair, the cyber-knight's psi-sword *is* a lot more useful in other ways.

for example, it costs a cyber-knight 0 actions to summon a psi-sword, or two. for a mind melter, it takes 1 melee round each.

a cyber-knight's psi-sword lasts until he doesn't want it to last any more. for a mind melter, not so much.

a cyber-knight's psi-sword costs 0 ISP to generate. again, for the mind melter... not so much.

a cyber-knight is also actually suited at all to close-up melee combat. for example, a cyber-knight has tons of skills to choose from, can pick the better types of hand-to-hand combat, gets useful attribute bonuses and combat bonuses, gains paired weapons for free early on, and has the skills to actually grab a bunch of physical skills (and indeed starts with several) to provide bonuses to strike, dodge, parry, etc, as well as related stuff (like mounted combat skills) while still covering basics. a mind melter has about half as many OCC skills (most not useful for combat), and half as many OCC related skills, and should probably spend some of those on being able to use the weapons and equipment they start with...

while i am relatively disinclined to live in terror of a melee combatant as compared to a ranged one, i would *much* rather face a mind melter reduced to melee combat as his only option than face a cyber-knight in the same situation. frankly, if a mind melter has decided to bust out the paired psi-swords (after waiting two full melee rounds), i for one would be inclined to feel grateful that he didn't just use super telekinesis to pick me up and leave me helpless, or bio-manipulation to incapacitate me for several rounds, etc. instead, he has chosen something that i can simply run away from with relative ease.

(not to mention if you're looking for sustained damage on a cyber-knight, just hit stuff with super telekinesis... you can wield 1 object per level, so a level 5 mind melter *could* dual-wield psi-swords for 6d6 each (theoretically; they'd need to find a way to get paired weapons first, of course). or, that same mind melter could use super telekinesis to wield 5 melee weapons, each of which is comparable or better than a psi-sword, and can be used out to 500 feet away, with a lower ISP cost, and only requiring one action to set up (though obviously it does require preparation in the form of having 5 useful melee weapons on hand).

Pretty sure a Mind Melter can't. I'm on the road now so I can't look but Cyber-Knights can't do it until level 3 and have a 0 ISP cost. The rules don't say "They cannot summon a second until level 3" they get the ability to summon a second at level 3. Meaning unless your class says you can, you can't.

Also you can't, to my knowledge, keep a Psi-Sword active unless you're holding it in your hand. It has no mass, there is nothing to TK.

(minor side note: that last paragraph in the part you quoted should have been about using super telekinesis for mind melters, who actually have an option for super telekinesis, and not cyber-knights, who do not - i had cyber-knights on the brain at the time).

i don't think it's reasonable to consider rules regarding how a cyber-knight's psi-sword does or does not function to be statements applicable to all psi-swords in general, considering that they explicitly work differently in several ways.

and no, they don't need to give cyber-knights the ability to stop people from running away. melee is not over-nerfed. it is exactly where it should be for a game of this type. there is a *reason* why modern militaries use a lot of guns, and not a lot of swords. there is a reason why, even though most every soldier trained for modern warfare is trained formelee combat of some form or another, and yet consider their firearm to be their primary weapon.

melee has some uses. and it has drawbacks. it is not designed to be "balanced" as equal with ranged combat, rather it is simply a form of combat which is sometimes useful and sometimes not, and you should use it when it is useful, but when it is not you should use something else.

for this reason, a standard starting cyber-knight starts off guaranteed with 2 modern and 2 ancient WPs (one of which will most likely be sword, although their psi-sword can in fact be just about any melee weapon they desire), and 2 guns (including energy weapons) plus extra ammunition in their starting equipment. they have a psi-sword; nothing indicates they are expected to use it to the exclusion of all else.

It is a defining, rather THE defining feature of their class. They should be able to employ them at least frequently enough to matter. Rifts, sadly, becomes all guns all the time far too often.

[HWalsh]

Oddly enough the easiest way to make melee more viable (and yes it "is" over-nerfed considering anyone with a hth has auto-parry.) For the CK is to add some more non-super and super Psionics that increase movement speed.

[HWalsh]

Oh also:

Nope. The Palladium Psychic FAQ (can't link, on my phone) clarifies that ONLY Cyber-Knights can pop two Psi-Swords.

[Shark_Force]

ah well, largely irrelevant in any case - psi-swords as used by the mind melter take too long to form to be useful.

also, i would say that the defining feature of a cyber-knight is their code. energy swords of some form or other (magical, psionic, technological, techno-wizardry, psionic technology, super powers, etc) are really not terribly rare. far more rare, especially in a setting like rifts earth where survival is a constant struggle, are people who care more about doing what is right rather than what is most likely to ensure their personal survival.

[eliakon]

to be fair, the cyber-knight's psi-sword *is* a lot more useful in other ways.

for example, it costs a cyber-knight 0 actions to summon a psi-sword, or two. for a mind melter, it takes 1 melee round each.

a cyber-knight's psi-sword lasts until he doesn't want it to last any more. for a mind melter, not so much.

a cyber-knight's psi-sword costs 0 ISP to generate. again, for the mind melter... not so much.

a cyber-knight is also actually suited at all to close-up melee combat. for example, a cyber-knight has tons of skills to choose from, can pick the better types of hand-to-hand combat, gets useful attribute bonuses and combat bonuses, gains paired weapons for free early on, and has the skills to actually grab a bunch of physical skills (and indeed starts with several) to provide bonuses to strike, dodge, parry, etc, as well as related stuff (like mounted combat skills) while still covering basics. a mind melter has about half as many OCC skills (most not useful for combat), and half as many OCC related skills, and should probably spend some of those on being able to use the weapons and equipment they start with...

while i am relatively disinclined to live in terror of a melee combatant as compared to a ranged one, i would *much* rather face a mind melter reduced to melee combat as his only option than face a cyber-knight in the same situation. frankly, if a mind melter has decided to bust out the paired psi-swords (after waiting two full melee rounds), i for one would be inclined to feel grateful that he didn't just use super telekinesis to pick me up and leave me helpless, or bio-manipulation to incapacitate me for several rounds, etc. instead, he has chosen something that i can simply run away from with relative ease.

(not to mention if you're looking for sustained damage on a cyber-knight, just hit stuff with super telekinesis... you can wield 1 object per level, so a level 5 mind melter *could* dual-wield psi-swords for 6d6 each (theoretically; they'd need to find a way to get paired weapons first, of course). or, that same mind melter could use super telekinesis to wield 5 melee weapons, each of which is comparable or better than a psi-sword, and can be used out to 500 feet away, with a lower ISP cost, and only requiring one action to set up (though obviously it does require preparation in the form of having 5 useful melee weapons on hand).

Pretty sure a Mind Melter can't. I'm on the road now so I can't look but Cyber-Knights can't do it until level 3 and have a 0 ISP cost. The rules don't say "They cannot summon a second until level 3" they get the ability to summon a second at level 3. Meaning unless your class says you can, you can't.

Also you can't, to my knowledge, keep a Psi-Sword active unless you're holding it in your hand. It has no mass, there is nothing to TK.

(minor side note: that last paragraph in the part you quoted should have been about using super telekinesis for mind melters, who actually have an option for super telekinesis, and not cyber-knights, who do not - i had cyber-knights on the brain at the time).

i don't think it's reasonable to consider rules regarding how a cyber-knight's psi-sword does or does not function to be statements applicable to all psi-swords in general, considering that they explicitly work differently in several ways.

and no, they don't need to give cyber-knights the ability to stop people from running away. melee is not over-nerfed. it is exactly where it should be for a game of this type. there is a *reason* why modern militaries use a lot of guns, and not a lot of swords. there is a reason why, even though most every soldier trained for modern warfare is trained formelee combat of some form or another, and yet consider their firearm to be their primary weapon.

melee has some uses. and it has drawbacks. it is not designed to be "balanced" as equal with ranged combat, rather it is simply a form of combat which is sometimes useful and sometimes not, and you should use it when it is useful, but when it is not you should use something else.

for this reason, a standard starting cyber-knight starts off guaranteed with 2 modern and 2 ancient WPs (one of which will most likely be sword, although their psi-sword can in fact be just about any melee weapon they desire), and 2 guns (including energy weapons) plus extra ammunition in their starting equipment. they have a psi-sword; nothing indicates they are expected to use it to the exclusion of all else.

It is a defining, rather THE defining feature of their class. They should be able to employ them at least frequently enough to matter. Rifts, sadly, becomes all guns all the time far too often.

Strangely enough I would say that the psi-sword is just a nice touch. The defining feature of their class, to me, is their code of honor. THAT is something that is unique to their class. Not the ability to pop up a minor MD weapon at all times. The sword to me is not meant to be a 'kewl weapon' It, and the cyber armor, are symbols of the classes willingness to stand up and defend others at any time, in any place. Bust in the bath house at three in the morning and start roughing people up? Yah the Cyberknight is going to stand up, and tell you to stand down or face justice. He doesn't need to go get his armor, or his gun, or his <fill in the blank> he is ready now. THATS what defines the Cyberknight to me. The rest is just gravy.

[Alrik Vas]

Point well made, eliakon. I couldn't agree more.

[HWalsh]

Strangely enough I would say that the psi-sword is just a nice touch. The defining feature of their class, to me, is their code of honor. THAT is something that is unique to their class. Not the ability to pop up a minor MD weapon at all times. The sword to me is not meant to be a 'kewl weapon' It, and the cyber armor, are symbols of the classes willingness to stand up and defend others at any time, in any place. Bust in the bath house at three in the morning and start roughing people up? Yah the Cyberknight is going to stand up, and tell you to stand down or face justice. He doesn't need to go get his armor, or his gun, or his <fill in the blank> he is ready now. THATS what defines the Cyberknight to me. The rest is just gravy.

They spend 1/3 of the class description and notes talking about the sword and how important it is to each knight. Its far more than gravy.

They spend more time on the Psi-Sword than they spend on the Glitterboy Pilot's Boom Gun.

[eliakon]

Strangely enough I would say that the psi-sword is just a nice touch. The defining feature of their class, to me, is their code of honor. THAT is something that is unique to their class. Not the ability to pop up a minor MD weapon at all times. The sword to me is not meant to be a 'kewl weapon' It, and the cyber armor, are symbols of the classes willingness to stand up and defend others at any time, in any place. Bust in the bath house at three in the morning and start roughing people up? Yah the Cyberknight is going to stand up, and tell you to stand down or face justice. He doesn't need to go get his armor, or his gun, or his <fill in the blank> he is ready now. THATS what defines the Cyberknight to me. The rest is just gravy.

They spend 1/3 of the class description and notes talking about the sword and how important it is to each knight. Its far more than gravy.

They spend more time on the Psi-Sword than they spend on the Glitterboy Pilot's Boom Gun.

I am not saying it the sword is irrelevant. I am saying that its damage is basically irrelevant. Its not about doing the best damage, its not about having the best weapon. Its about, always having a weapon, always. Its not about having the best armor, or the most MDC. Its about having some MDC, always. Its about being ready to live that code 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Even at three am in the bath house. To me THATS what being a Cyberknight is about. Its not about the toys and the trappings....its about, to borrow a phrase "The man, the myth, the legend."
I will admit though, that I am talking my personal views there. Other people may, nay will have other views on this.

[HWalsh]

Strangely enough I would say that the psi-sword is just a nice touch. The defining feature of their class, to me, is their code of honor. THAT is something that is unique to their class. Not the ability to pop up a minor MD weapon at all times. The sword to me is not meant to be a 'kewl weapon' It, and the cyber armor, are symbols of the classes willingness to stand up and defend others at any time, in any place. Bust in the bath house at three in the morning and start roughing people up? Yah the Cyberknight is going to stand up, and tell you to stand down or face justice. He doesn't need to go get his armor, or his gun, or his <fill in the blank> he is ready now. THATS what defines the Cyberknight to me. The rest is just gravy.

They spend 1/3 of the class description and notes talking about the sword and how important it is to each knight. Its far more than gravy.

They spend more time on the Psi-Sword than they spend on the Glitterboy Pilot's Boom Gun.

I am not saying it the sword is irrelevant. I am saying that its damage is basically irrelevant. Its not about doing the best damage, its not about having the best weapon. Its about, always having a weapon, always. Its not about having the best armor, or the most MDC. Its about having some MDC, always. Its about being ready to live that code 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Even at three am in the bath house. To me THATS what being a Cyberknight is about. Its not about the toys and the trappings....its about, to borrow a phrase "The man, the myth, the legend."
I will admit though, that I am talking my personal views there. Other people may, nay will have other views on this.

See I love the concept at the core but for these awesome knights who are fearsome enemies of evil... Coming at evil with a butter knife is still silly.

The symbol of the Cyber-Knights is very much a joke.

Basically, imagine if the Boom Gun, had all the same hype it has in the fluff, but only did 3d6 M.D. rather than 3d6x10 M.D.

Nobody would take the "powerful, fearsome, Boom Gun" seriously.

[HWalsh]

Honestly, "Build A Better Cyber-Knight" (redesign an occ that you enjoy) might be a fun thread idea...

[Alrik Vas]

The fix is to let damage bonuses apply, honestly. You get a knight with a 30 PS and suddenly he does 2d6+15 with fencing at level 1? Seems good. Just apply it to them alone, don't make it across the board. Or put their ME on the PS chart for bonus damage if you think adding strength could get silly.

[Slight001]

The fix is to let damage bonuses apply, honestly. You get a knight with a 30 PS and suddenly he does 2d6+15 with fencing at level 1? Seems good. Just apply it to them alone, don't make it across the board. Or put their ME on the PS chart for bonus damage if you think adding strength could get silly.

Considering the implications of it being a product of both P.P.E. and I.S.P. concepts that allows it to function without an I.S.P./P.P.E. cost... I'd do the average of the P.E. and M.E. attribute and apply that to the P.S. chart for an bonus. This would represent not only their mental but physical fortitude... which is a general theme for knights.

[alogan]

At the minimum, I can see a clear case being made that the psi-sword of a righteous cyber knight could do double damage to vampires, demons, etc.

[Killer Cyborg]

The original CKs were built around being men of honor, skill, and bravery.
The new CKs are built around psi-swords and other super-powers.

[HWalsh]

The original CKs were built around being men of honor, skill, and bravery.
The new CKs are built around psi-swords and other super-powers.

Its not quite that KC...

I loved the original Cyber-Knight (Cyber-Knight is my favorite class in Rifts, even though I feel it is a bit weak) and while I absolutely think they needed an upgrade... The SoT4 upgrade wasn't what I would have liked.

First thing is first:
The Psi-Sword is either a Psi-Sword or it isn't a Psi-Sword.

That was, originally, my biggest beef with the class. (Pre-SoT4) A Psi-Sword is a Psi-Sword is a Psi-Sword. You should never have two powers that work completely differently. Even after SoT4 I don't like them being called Psi-Swords personally because they clearly are something different. They do different damage, have different ISP costs, the Cyber-Knight can change shape and color, the Cyber-Knight can summon two of them...

Simply put... The weapon isn't a Psi-Sword.
It might be EXTREMELY similar to a Psi-Sword but it isn't a Psi-Sword.
It can also be summoned by things that aren't Psychic... At all.
What is it? I have no idea.

The biggest issue with the Cyber-Knight comes from the description of it. The fluff talks these guys up to be... Lets be honest... They are called "Living Legends" in the book. They are supposed to be relatively solitary warriors that slay supernatural creatures (straight from the book) but are more equipped to fight technological enemies and according to the book when a bunch of Knights get together it means something nasty is going to go down...

The problem is the class simply doesn't live up to that kind of hype.

I love them to death. I love knightly archetypes. However if you are going to sell them as some kind of wandering, dragon-slaying, super warrior then they should be some kind of dragon-slaying, super warrior.

Now... Pre-SoT4... I'll be honest... Mechanics-wise... The Cyber-Knight was terrible.

Games rarely go on long enough for Juicers to ever face their mortality and Glitterboys are simply god-like in their raw power.

The Cyber-Knight was originally the "Honorable Hero" ... So was the Glitterboy actually... So the Cyber-Knight originally was basically kind of an every-man hero who was more highly skilled than others. That was fine, it was mediocre, but as we used to say, "People play a Cyber-Knight because they want a challenge."

Then SoT4 came out... The upgrade was... Weird.

We were supposed to face Supernatural enemies, yet were more equipped to fight the Coalition and tech enemies...
Cool... It kind of gave us a nice niche... Its not what we probably wanted, it isn't what I would have done, but hey...

On the up-shot, we aren't supposed to use a Psi-Sword against an enemy that isn't up to the challenge... Due to the mediocre performance of the "legendary blade" that isn't usually a problem.

I personally think the Cyber-Knight would have been good with a universal auto-dodge, and maybe something that helped them match enemies with supernatural P.S. and natural M.D.C.

I like the dual Psi-Sword...

Its just that they don't feel like they live up to the hype that they are given. I have no problem with the hype saying, "Gallant warriors with some spiritual training who fight for right against the forces of evil, even if they are outmatched they never give up."

But if they are, in the lore, these incredibly powerful, feared, and revered warriors, they shouldn't be so easily kited, so easily countered, and so easily out-performed.

If their symbol is their Psi-Sword, it should NOT be relegated to a "weapon of last resort" ever. That is like seeing a Jedi Knight in Star Wars who wields blasters because the Lightsaber is simply terrible.

If the symbol of the Cyber-Knights are their Psi-Swords then those weapons should almost always be a viable option.

To put it in comparison, the Psi-Sword should be as useful to a Cyber-Knight as the Glitterboy is to the Glitterboy Pilot.

[Killer Cyborg]

Pre SoT, CKs were fine. They just weren't what you wanted.
Now they're not fine, they're just still not what you want.

And saying that a Psi-Sword should be a Psi-Sword makes about as much sense as saying that a laser should be a laser, and there should only ever be one type.

[Killer Cyborg]

Elaborating on my previous post (which was from a tablet, so was shorter than I'd have liked):

The biggest issue with the Cyber-Knight comes from the description of it. The fluff talks these guys up to be... Lets be honest... They are called "Living Legends" in the book. They are supposed to be relatively solitary warriors that slay supernatural creatures (straight from the book) but are more equipped to fight technological enemies and according to the book when a bunch of Knights get together it means something nasty is going to go down...

The problem is the class simply doesn't live up to that kind of hype.

Go to the back of the RMB.
Roll up a random monster.
See if a RMB CK has a good chance of shooting it to pieces with his rifle under RMB rules.

Spoiler:

He does.

I love them to death. I love knightly archetypes. However if you are going to sell them as some kind of wandering, dragon-slaying, super warrior then they should be some kind of dragon-slaying, super warrior.

They're not sold as dragon-slaying super-warriors.
They're sold as champions of the weak and oppressed, and as noble warriors that travel alone, in groups of two, OR (if they're expecting real trouble) in groups of five or more.

They're warriors, but they're not super-human. They're simply above-average in a world where the average is pretty high.

[grandmaster z0b]

Pre SoT, CKs were fine. They just weren't what you wanted.
Now they're not fine, they're just still not what you want.

Well honestly "fine" is completely arbitrary, there's no magical gauge that shows whether a class is fine or has problems without bringing in personal opinion.

You thought old CKs were fine, some people (including me) thought that they needed a buff. Almost all of those in the latter category weren't that happy with the SoT CKs, generally because it seemed there was little reason to introduce an anti-tech theme to CKs. Again that is just personal opinion though.

Neither is right or wrong.

[Kagashi]

I tweaked the CK so it provides bonuses to supernatural instead of tech. I liked the effort put into the post SoT CK, but I think it went into the wrong direction. To me, this is a better change. Since there were already CKs in the campaign we were playing in when I implemented this rule, I just said at level 4, the CK goes down a certain path to either focus on anti-tech (as per RUE/SoT) or focus on anti-supernatural, but are still CKs none-the-less.

Level 1-3: no change to RUE.

Level 4: Basic Combat Awareness: Initially, the Cyber-Knight can only focus and be aware of one opponent and all the spells and abilities of that one, primary opponent. The Knight is aware of and able to react to all beings with an extraordinary amount of mystic energies (PPE or ISP). This amount is 13 or more PPE (more than the 2D6 max of a normal human, only able if a man of magic), any amount of ISP (any amount means they are psychics), and any creature labeled a Creature of Magic or Supernatural (just in case they dont have enough PPE or ISP to qualify the other two triggers). From this point forward, the above will be referred to as "supernatural being". The Knight knows when the mystical opponent is about to use a supernatural ability, psionic ability, or cast a spell.

Bonuses:

-Negates any bonuses from any magic weapon used by the opponent.
-+3 on initiative against the opponent, +6 vs animated dead and magical constructs.
-Meanwhile, the opponent must spend an additional attack to cast magic, has 1 attack less than normal, and is -3 to dodge attacks from the CK.

Level 5: +4 to automatic dodge against those with mystical energies. He can literally see the flow of the mystical energies and can sense what is going on before it happens.

Level 6: Negate Supernatural Abilities: The CK can do one of the following at level 6 (automatically kicks off at the beginning of combat, but can only be done once):
-Prevent a supernatural being from teleporting/D-teleporting for the next 10 minutes.
-Prevent a supernatural being from any metamorphosis (and thus showing its true form) for the next 10 minutes.
-Prevent a supernatural being from bio-regenerating for the next 10 minutes.
-Prevent a supernatural being from turning invisible (and thus become visible) for the next 10 minutes.
-Amplify a supernatural being's effects to a vulnerability for the next melee round.
-Negate a supernatural being's mega-damage level of supernatural strength (use the SDC HU2 chart or convert to Rifts SDC chart) for the next 10 minutes.
- Syphon (take from the Supernatural being and add to his own) 5D6 of the supernatural being's mystical energies (both ISP and PPE) once per every 10 minutes!
- Prevent a supernatural creature from absorbing "extra" PPE for the next 10 minutes.

Level 7: Pick an ability not already picked from Level 6.

Level 8: Advanced Combat Awareness:

Same as level 4 but effects multipule supernatural creatures who are engaging the CK.

-Negates all bonuses from all magical weapons
-+2 on inititive vs all SN beings, +4 vs animated dead and magical constructs. The CK is +2 to strike and parry and +1 to dodge vs SN beings.
-all SN opponents are -2 to strike and dodge vs the CK and loses one attack.
-Rembmer the effects of the primary opponent from level 4.

Level 9: Pick an ability not already picked from Level 6 list.
Level 10: add an addtional +2 to auto dodge (+6 total) vs. SN beings and an additional +4 (+8 total) to auto dodge vs animated dead and magical constructs.
Level 11: Pick an ability not already picked from Level 6 list.
Level 12: Pick an ability not already picked from Level 6 list.
Level 13: Pick an ability not already picked from Level 6 list.
Level 14: Pick an ability not already picked from Level 6 list.
Level 15: Pick an ability not already picked from Level 6 list.

[HWalsh]

I tweaked the CK so it provides bonuses to supernatural instead of tech.

I worked on a variant that simply improved the base Knight instead of focusing on anti-tech or anti-supernatural. I'll see if I can find it, or re-write it, and get it posted.

[HWalsh]

My Cyber-Knight variant:

Zen Combat:

Exact same as in the RUE up until 4th level.

4th level:
Combat Awareness

"The Cyber-Knight has honed their combat senses to the point that they are hyper-aware of threats. The Knight feels attacks coming before they are launched (regardless of the source) which gives them a split second to react.

Bonuses and Abilities due to Combat Awareness
+3 on Initiative
+3 Automatic Dodge


5th Level:
Burst of Speed

The Cyber-Knight's training and meditation allows them to access their body's reserves and to break the limits usually imposed on them, by spending 5 ISP the Cyber-Knight triples their Spd for 1 combat round per level of experience. This increase can be granted instantly and does not use up an attack when activated in combat.


6th Level:

Sphere of Influence:

The Cyber-Knight's awareness becomes so sharp that his senses and reactions become downright superhuman. Enemies within 10 feet of the Cyber-Knight are at -2 to Strike the Cyber-Knight and the Cyber-Knight gains +2 to Strike, and +3 to Parry and Dodge against all enemies within his Sphere of Influence.


7th Level:

Intuitive Defense:

The Cyber-Knight's enhanced senses and reflexes allow him a unique advantage against foes that rely on ranged combat. The Cyber-Knight can now move so fast that he can actually parry Projectile Attacks and Energy Blasts without penalty. This cannot be used to parry bursts, or missiles, only single shot-projectile attacks. In order to parry such attacks the Cyber-Knight must have a weapon (or object) capable of withstanding the damage being hurled against it. The weapon (or object) takes the damage from the attack in place of the Cyber-Knight. Most Cyber-Knights utilize their Psi-Sword for this purpose, as it cannot be destroyed. Oddly, the Cyber-Knight's Psi-Sword can interact with solid projectiles in this manner, unlike the Psi-Sword of the Mind Melter.


8th Level:

Improved Combat Awareness:
The Bonuses from Combat Awareness become:
+6 Initiative
+6 Automatic Dodge


9th Level:

Increased Sphere of Influence:
The Cyber-Knight's Sphere of Influence extends to 20 feet.

10th Level:

Improved Sphere of Influence:
The Cyber-Knight's Sphere of Influence Benefits become: +4 Strike, +6 to Parry and Dodge

[Killer Cyborg]

Pre SoT, CKs were fine. They just weren't what you wanted.
Now they're not fine, they're just still not what you want.

Well honestly "fine" is completely arbitrary, there's no magical gauge that shows whether a class is fine or has problems without bringing in personal opinion.

You thought old CKs were fine, some people (including me) thought that they needed a buff. Almost all of those in the latter category weren't that happy with the SoT CKs, generally because it seemed there was little reason to introduce an anti-tech theme to CKs. Again that is just personal opinion though.

Neither is right or wrong.

No, they were absolutely fine for what they were. They did not need a buff.
I CAN demonstrate that if you like.
If they suffered from power creep of the general setting, that's a problem with power creep, not with CKs.

[Shark_Force]

yeah, initially cyber-knights were excellent warriors (attribute bonuses and a bonus attack per melee, which was huge at the time since you only started with 2 base, not 4) with a massive number of skills. they had more than some of the scholar/adventurer classes, close to as many as the rogue scholar.

they weren't the most powerful warrior imaginable, but they certainly weren't weak either.

and like i said, with their starting gear, they were quite strong.

(and on a side note, i consider the restrictions against using the psi-sword on unequal opponents to be more related to the possibility of allowing oneself to be "disarmed" to get into an area where weapons are not allowed, and then busting out the psi-sword against people who have only their bare hands, not so much a caution against using it against people who have MD weaponry that is inferior to the sword).

[Killer Cyborg]

"Worthy opponent" = No pulping squishies.

[grandmaster z0b]

Pre SoT, CKs were fine. They just weren't what you wanted.
Now they're not fine, they're just still not what you want.

Well honestly "fine" is completely arbitrary, there's no magical gauge that shows whether a class is fine or has problems without bringing in personal opinion.

You thought old CKs were fine, some people (including me) thought that they needed a buff. Almost all of those in the latter category weren't that happy with the SoT CKs, generally because it seemed there was little reason to introduce an anti-tech theme to CKs. Again that is just personal opinion though.

Neither is right or wrong.

No, they were absolutely fine for what they were. They did not need a buff.
I CAN demonstrate that if you like.
If they suffered from power creep of the general setting, that's a problem with power creep, not with CKs.

Lol, go ahead demonstrate away. I fail to see how it's possible to prove something like that categorically in a tabletop RPG but sure, go ahead.

Firstly let me state that I get that under the old rules a CK was quite adequate at dispatching justice to evil doers. It most likely required using an energy weapon rather than the Psi-Sword. I also get that the Psi-Sword was useful insomuch as it was a weapon that could be summoned in an instant, did not cost ISP, did MD and meant that the CK could not be disarmed. Lastly I also get that CKs were highly skilled and that was part of their class.

However that doesn't mean that people were wrong to want a CK that had a kick-ass Psi-Sword that was more powerful in combat. Hell, I would have happily traded a skill or so to do so. Lastly I actually think that the current CK rules are a bit over the top, especially the way they can just randomly be a master psychic and get all the benefits without any loss of skills or extra XP cost.

[Kagashi]

Yeah, thats the problem, there was no trade off.

Here is the quick and dirty:

In RMB, classes who were awesome had some kind of disadvantage.
-Crazies lost their sanity
-Juicers lost their lifespan
-Cyborgs lost their humanity (and wallet) and so on. There was a price to pay for the awesomeness.

Cyber Knights were just a group of trained dudes who tried to right wrongs and fight evil. They had common training, so they had similar psionic powers and standard cyber armor. They were fine the way they were.

Then came along SoT. And suddenly, Cyber Knights were auto dodging tech opponents, dual wielding psi-weapons, and literally growing cyber armor. And the pay off? Absolutely nothing. Power creep at its finest. CKs were just fine they way they were and they moved them in a Munchkin direction for the sake of being a Munchkin. And in my opinion, they moved them in 180 degrees away from the direction they should of if the were going to munchkinize them in the first place. Bottom line, Cyber Knights can still do everything they could back in RMB, plus some after SoT/RUE; that is Munchkin.

[Nightmask]

Yeah, thats the problem, there was no trade off.

Here is the quick and dirty:

In RMB, classes who were awesome had some kind of disadvantage.
-Crazies lost their sanity
-Juicers lost their lifespan
-Cyborgs lost their humanity (and wallet) and so on. There was a price to pay for the awesomeness.

Cyber Knights were just a group of trained dudes who tried to right wrongs and fight evil. They had common training, so they had similar psionic powers and standard cyber armor. They were fine the way they were.

Then came along SoT. And suddenly, Cyber Knights were auto dodging tech opponents, dual wielding psi-weapons, and literally growing cyber armor. And the pay off? Absolutely nothing. Power creep at its finest. CKs were just fine they way they were and they moved them in a Munchkin direction for the sake of being a Munchkin. And in my opinion, they moved them in 180 degrees away from the direction they should of if the were going to munchkinize them in the first place. Bottom line, Cyber Knights can still do everything they could back in RMB, plus some after SoT/RUE; that is Munchkin.

Sad how common that attitude is: that everything just has to have a trade-off/downside/blessedwithsuck associated with it or it's munchkin/twinkish/over-powered. They don't, most things don't have such issues or they have fairly minor downsides to where people don't really think of them as downsides, and no they didn't munchkinize Cyber-Knights with the Siege updated material nor did they do it for the sake of being munchkin, they did it because like many classes in the original Rifts book they'd become less competitive with many of the new classes and races that had come out since then and had to be updated to meet that new level that became common for the setting since it was created.

Now I'll agree that the direction they were taken in was at odds with their design intentions and described nature, making them anti-technology instead of anti-supernatural and likely for little reason other than to make them better suited to the War on Tolkeen and fighting against the CS rather than improve them as a threat to the supernatural.

[Killer Cyborg]

No, they were absolutely fine for what they were. They did not need a buff.
I CAN demonstrate that if you like.
If they suffered from power creep of the general setting, that's a problem with power creep, not with CKs.

Lol, go ahead demonstrate away. I fail to see how it's possible to prove something like that categorically in a tabletop RPG but sure, go ahead.

Firstly let me state that I get that under the old rules a CK was quite adequate at dispatching justice to evil doers. It most likely required using an energy weapon rather than the Psi-Sword. I also get that the Psi-Sword was useful insomuch as it was a weapon that could be summoned in an instant, did not cost ISP, did MD and meant that the CK could not be disarmed. Lastly I also get that CKs were highly skilled and that was part of their class.

You pretty much get the gist, then.

However that doesn't mean that people were wrong to want a CK that had a kick-ass Psi-Sword that was more powerful in combat. Hell, I would have happily traded a skill or so to do so. Lastly I actually think that the current CK rules are a bit over the top, especially the way they can just randomly be a master psychic and get all the benefits without any loss of skills or extra XP cost.

When Rifts came out, a Psi-Sword was one of THE best melee weapons possible.
A Mind Melter's Psi-Sword was more powerful, but it had a cost and warm-up time.
The CK's Psi-Sword was still pretty awesome, you just had to wait for it.
At first level, it was the equivalent of a vibro-knife: the basic MD melee weapon.
At third level, it was the equivalent of a vibro-sword: the standard MD melee weapon, and pretty much the high-end of the tech range unless you got bionic vibro-claws or a giant bot doing a stomp or a leap-kick.
At 6th level, it was as about as good as melee weapons got, with the exception of a TW Flaming Sword or a Mind Melter's psi-sword. At this point, you're doing 50% more damage than a punch from a hatchling dragon or a 20' tall robot.

While I agree that an extra 1d6 MD to the psi-sword's damage wouldn't have broken the class or anything, I really don't think that it was at all necessary.
The Psi-Sword was mostly something that you whip out for special occasions, NOT the go-to weapon of choice.

[Killer Cyborg]

Yeah, thats the problem, there was no trade off.

Here is the quick and dirty:

In RMB, classes who were awesome had some kind of disadvantage.
-Crazies lost their sanity
-Juicers lost their lifespan
-Cyborgs lost their humanity (and wallet) and so on. There was a price to pay for the awesomeness.

Cyber Knights were just a group of trained dudes who tried to right wrongs and fight evil. They had common training, so they had similar psionic powers and standard cyber armor. They were fine the way they were.

Then came along SoT. And suddenly, Cyber Knights were auto dodging tech opponents, dual wielding psi-weapons, and literally growing cyber armor. And the pay off? Absolutely nothing. Power creep at its finest. CKs were just fine they way they were and they moved them in a Munchkin direction for the sake of being a Munchkin. And in my opinion, they moved them in 180 degrees away from the direction they should of if the were going to munchkinize them in the first place. Bottom line, Cyber Knights can still do everything they could back in RMB, plus some after SoT/RUE; that is Munchkin.

Sad how common that attitude is: that everything just has to have a trade-off/downside/blessedwithsuck associated with it or it's munchkin/twinkish/over-powered.

It was an essential theme of the original game.

They don't, most things don't have such issues or they have fairly minor downsides to where people don't really think of them as downsides, and no they didn't munchkinize Cyber-Knights with the Siege updated material nor did they do it for the sake of being munchkin, they did it because like many classes in the original Rifts book they'd become less competitive with many of the new classes and races that had come out since then and had to be updated to meet that new level that became common for the setting since it was created.

In other words, "They did it to keep up with power creep."
NOT better.
And not exactly a "not munchy" reason.

Now I'll agree that the direction they were taken in was at odds with their design intentions and described nature, making them anti-technology instead of anti-supernatural and likely for little reason other than to make them better suited to the War on Tolkeen and fighting against the CS rather than improve them as a threat to the supernatural.

I think we're all pretty much in agreement there.
But it's more than just that- the crappy new powers made the class completely uninteresting to me.
Instead of being a champion humans, they were superhumans.
That changes their nature, and not for the better.

[Killer Cyborg]

Yeah, thats the problem, there was no trade off.

Here is the quick and dirty:

In RMB, classes who were awesome had some kind of disadvantage.
-Crazies lost their sanity
-Juicers lost their lifespan
-Cyborgs lost their humanity (and wallet) and so on. There was a price to pay for the awesomeness.

Cyber Knights were just a group of trained dudes who tried to right wrongs and fight evil. They had common training, so they had similar psionic powers and standard cyber armor. They were fine the way they were.

Then came along SoT. And suddenly, Cyber Knights were auto dodging tech opponents, dual wielding psi-weapons, and literally growing cyber armor. And the pay off? Absolutely nothing. Power creep at its finest. CKs were just fine they way they were and they moved them in a Munchkin direction for the sake of being a Munchkin. And in my opinion, they moved them in 180 degrees away from the direction they should of if the were going to munchkinize them in the first place. Bottom line, Cyber Knights can still do everything they could back in RMB, plus some after SoT/RUE; that is Munchkin.

It's certainly Power Creep.

[Nightmask]

Yeah, thats the problem, there was no trade off.

Here is the quick and dirty:

In RMB, classes who were awesome had some kind of disadvantage.
-Crazies lost their sanity
-Juicers lost their lifespan
-Cyborgs lost their humanity (and wallet) and so on. There was a price to pay for the awesomeness.

Cyber Knights were just a group of trained dudes who tried to right wrongs and fight evil. They had common training, so they had similar psionic powers and standard cyber armor. They were fine the way they were.

Then came along SoT. And suddenly, Cyber Knights were auto dodging tech opponents, dual wielding psi-weapons, and literally growing cyber armor. And the pay off? Absolutely nothing. Power creep at its finest. CKs were just fine they way they were and they moved them in a Munchkin direction for the sake of being a Munchkin. And in my opinion, they moved them in 180 degrees away from the direction they should of if the were going to munchkinize them in the first place. Bottom line, Cyber Knights can still do everything they could back in RMB, plus some after SoT/RUE; that is Munchkin.

Sad how common that attitude is: that everything just has to have a trade-off/downside/blessedwithsuck associated with it or it's munchkin/twinkish/over-powered.

It was an essential theme of the original game.

Not really, some things were shown with trade-offs even if that concept (like cybernetic enhancement to induce psychic powers) is as often shown without as with such but it certainly wasn't an essential theme of the game originally or now. The theme you can point to the original game having that was perhaps more essential to it or at least the basic them it was originally created around would be the non-commonality of mega-damage weapons and creatures where few outside the PC and their opposition had it rather than just about every other town being covered.

They don't, most things don't have such issues or they have fairly minor downsides to where people don't really think of them as downsides, and no they didn't munchkinize Cyber-Knights with the Siege updated material nor did they do it for the sake of being munchkin, they did it because like many classes in the original Rifts book they'd become less competitive with many of the new classes and races that had come out since then and had to be updated to meet that new level that became common for the setting since it was created.

In other words, "They did it to keep up with power creep."
NOT better.
And not exactly a "not munchy" reason.

That's not a munchkin thing, munchkin is a disruptive play style and you can't even remotely call game designers updating a character class to be more in keeping with a new median point as being munchkin. It's a revision to bring the class more into alignment with a new standard and nothing more.

Now I'll agree that the direction they were taken in was at odds with their design intentions and described nature, making them anti-technology instead of anti-supernatural and likely for little reason other than to make them better suited to the War on Tolkeen and fighting against the CS rather than improve them as a threat to the supernatural.

I think we're all pretty much in agreement there.
But it's more than just that- the crappy new powers made the class completely uninteresting to me.
Instead of being a champion humans, they were superhumans.
That changes their nature, and not for the better.

Cyber-knights have always been super-humans, since I shouldn't have to point out the whole 'psychic powers including cool mega-damage inflicting psychic sword and implanted cybernetic armor' which makes them clearly NOT normal humans nor does having that make them not champion humans. Not like you're required to use the new write-ups for them either, nothing prevents you from using the classic version if that's what most appeals to you.

[Killer Cyborg]

Sad how common that attitude is: that everything just has to have a trade-off/downside/blessedwithsuck associated with it or it's munchkin/twinkish/over-powered.

It was an essential theme of the original game.

Not really, some things were shown with trade-offs even if that concept (like cybernetic enhancement to induce psychic powers) is as often shown without as with such but it certainly wasn't an essential theme of the game originally or now.

Yes, really.
RMB 7
One of the central themes of Rifts is human augmentation. You will see over and over again, man's (fictional) attempts to make himself better; stronger, faster, smarter, more powerful. Sometimes this would be done with artificial implants. Other times it would be through the use of chemicals or genetic mutation. Under the most extreme circumstances, man would completely re-create himself. Not always for the better.

The human augmentation in the RMB always has a downside. Cybernetics/bionics come at the cost of your humanity. Juicers die. Crazies go crazy.
Power came at a price.

They don't, most things don't have such issues or they have fairly minor downsides to where people don't really think of them as downsides, and no they didn't munchkinize Cyber-Knights with the Siege updated material nor did they do it for the sake of being munchkin, they did it because like many classes in the original Rifts book they'd become less competitive with many of the new classes and races that had come out since then and had to be updated to meet that new level that became common for the setting since it was created.

In other words, "They did it to keep up with power creep."
NOT better.
And not exactly a "not munchy" reason.

That's not a munchkin thing, munchkin is a disruptive play style and you can't even remotely call game designers updating a character class to be more in keeping with a new median point as being munchkin. It's a revision to bring the class more into alignment with a new standard and nothing more.

"Munchkin" can mean a lot of things, and as a rule those things have to do with immature players who can't stand not being the most powerful thing in the room, who want to dominate their enemies easily and consistently.
And that's where Power Creep comes from- every new thing has to be just a bit better than the best old thing. Last year's BEST is this year's starting point.
Because otherwise, you can't dominate.

the crappy new powers made the class completely uninteresting to me.
Instead of being a champion humans, they were superhumans.
That changes their nature, and not for the better.

Cyber-knights have always been super-humans, since I shouldn't have to point out the whole 'psychic powers including cool mega-damage inflicting psychic sword and implanted cybernetic armor' which makes them clearly NOT normal humans nor does having that make them not champion humans. Not like you're required to use the new write-ups for them either, nothing prevents you from using the classic version if that's what most appeals to you.

They weren't normal human... but they were humans.
Anybody can get cyber-armor. That's nothing special on Rifts Earth. City Rats can start with it.
The Psi-Sword was a pretty cool power... but nothing huge. A single psychic power doesn't really make you cross the line from "human" to "not human."
Granted, in modern day, the psi-sword could make you a super-hero... but you'd still just be a human with a single psychic weapon. You'd bleed like anybody else, and you'd tire as fast as anybody else, and you'd still just be a guy with a fancy sword.
The new CKs aren't just guys with one or two fancy tricks, though. They only bleed if you can get through the living armor grafted onto them. Zen Combat means that they don't move like normal humans, though. They're faster. They have super powers, not just one fancy weapon.
They get for free the kind of powers that Juicers die for, whereas before, they were only marginally more powerful than a CS Grunt or anybody else with decent armor and weapons.

[Zer0 Kay]

cybernetics come at the cost of humanity my butt. Until they integrate a system like cyberpunk, where your PC can go Cyberpsycho, your humanity is under no rule based threat. You can still be the caring guy in a new metal skin that takes care of bunnies.
Pfffth loss of humanity.

[Nightmask]

cybernetics come at the cost of humanity my butt. Until they integrate a system like cyberpunk, where your PC can go Cyberpsycho, your humanity is under no rule based threat. You can still be the caring guy in a new metal skin that takes care of bunnies.
Pfffth loss of humanity.

Well in the Six Million Dollar Man series they did have one cyborg who had trouble adapting, the race car driver who was more bionic than Steve as he required all 4 limbs be replaced, and even Steve had some time getting used to the 'Hand? That's not really my hand.' deal. But psychologically speaking it's not something all cyborgs should be angsting over, or most probably, particularly if they got good psychological therapy initially to adapt to it (and of course those nuts who just want it for a quick path to power likely aren't going to be bothered by what they've given up).

[Killer Cyborg]

cybernetics come at the cost of humanity my butt. Until they integrate a system like cyberpunk, where your PC can go Cyberpsycho, your humanity is under no rule based threat. You can still be the caring guy in a new metal skin that takes care of bunnies.
Pfffth loss of humanity.

Right off the bat, you've restricted things by adding the "rules-based threat" clause.
Which isn't exactly in the spirit of role-playing.

It's also not really correct. I'm just guessing that you've neglected the whole "simulated sense of touch is a mere 35-55%" rule for Full Conversion Borgs, and its implications.