Need help with a different perspective

[Riftmaker]

I need a little help with a different perspective. The name of the game is RIFTS, and if you've got no power of them your at a disadvantage. Id go so far as to say in the long run you can't efficiently control an area with laylines without the ability to control them and prevent more of those RIFTS you may have heard about from causing trouble.

So how does a power, say the NGR or the CS without the ability to control those things survive in the long term?

[SpiritInterface]

I need a little help with a different perspective. The name of the game is RIFTS, and if you've got no power of them your at a disadvantage. Id go so far as to say in the long run you can't efficiently control an area with laylines without the ability to control them and prevent more of those RIFTS you may have heard about from causing trouble.

So how does a power, say the NGR or the CS without the ability to control those things survive in the long term?

They survive in the areas not significantly or directly effected by the Rifts or Ley Lines. The opening of the Rifts and the eruptions of the Ley Lines themselves didn't cause the disaster it was the side effects that did. The natural disasters and influx of other worldly beings were the major cause of the down fall.

[Athos]

So how does a power, say the NGR or the CS without the ability to control those things survive in the long term?

With the love and protection of the almighty Kevin...

[Alrik Vas]

The American mid west is largely devoid of catastrophic rift events. They have issues still, but the region the CS controls is one of the least magical.

I'm not as familiar with ley lines and nexus points in Germany to say about them.

[Prysus]

I need a little help with a different perspective. The name of the game is RIFTS, and if you've got no power of them your at a disadvantage. Id go so far as to say in the long run you can't efficiently control an area with laylines without the ability to control them and prevent more of those RIFTS you may have heard about from causing trouble.

So how does a power, say the NGR or the CS without the ability to control those things survive in the long term?

Greetings and Salutations. Depends on what you mean by "control an area" first. If you mean the ley line is running straight through the heart of your city ... then yeah, you're probably screwed. I don't know a lot about Rifts, but guessing that's not the case for the CS or the NGR. Though there might be ley lines in what is considered their general area of holding. So I'm going to address this with the latter in mind (if I'm wrong, then ... well, my entire response will be wrong).

1: Rifts don't open up non-stop. While a rift is more likely to open up on a ley line, that doesn't mean it's happening every hour, every day, or even every week. The only information we have on rifts opening up on a ley line are during ley line storms (with no clue how common these are, and there's still only a 1 in 5 chance of a rift opening). Then we have the four Equinoxes as well as Eclipses. So, with the exception of the ley line storms, these other events can be planned around. Set up surveillance, increase patrols heavier during those times, or just hold down the fort and try to ride it out until the night passes, then clean up whatever's left (if anything hasn't just went back home, or killed other beings that also came through the rifts, wandered off out of your territory, etc.).

2: Controlled territory I don't think means it's 100% secure. More like this is the territory they've claimed, and it's safer than unclaimed territory. They more likely have patrols, wipe out what they can when they find it, keep big groups from gathering, etc. They keep the situation contained, but I still wouldn't recommend going for a liesurely stroll without armor or weapons through their territory (I'm talking about outside of their big cities and such).

3: Even if a Rift does open up, there's no guarantee that something will come through. I mean, do your player characters see a rift and say: "Hey, we must go through that! Weeee!" Some might. But unless I was trying to escape something even worse, I'd more likely bunker down and get ready or just run away (if I thought I could). Whoever is on the other side might well just be doing the same thing (if anyone is there at all).

4: Even if something does come through, there's no guarantee it'll be hostile. Yes, there are such things as peaceful races. Or, at the very least, races who don't have to attack everything in sight as soon as they see it.

5: Even if something hostile comes through, there's no guarantee it's M.D.C. Yes, we predominantly see M.D.C. beings in the books, but S.D.C. is supposed to be the norm (it's just that M.D.C. sells books apparently so remains a focus even though it's supposed to be rare).

6: Numbers. Even if a few hostile M.D.C. beings come through a rift, linger in the area, and decide not to kill each other because "Hey, all's cool, we only hate humans but love all other races and believe in teamwork and friendship," then there's still the numbers game. Anything that comes through a rift will probably be few in numbers. While the CS might struggle with an army of Demons and Deevils (Minion Wars), or the NGR might struggle with an army of Gargoyles (NGR books in general), the small collection coming through a Rift are likely to be far outnumbered by the established and already organized armies of the CS or NGR.

I'm not a CS fan boy, or even really a fan of Rifts in general. I just don't think this one is a major issue (though I could be missing something). Just my thoughts on the matter at least. Hope that helps. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[cornholioprime]

So how does a power, say the NGR or the CS without the ability to control those things survive in the long term?

With the love and protection of the almighty Kevin...

#Cornholioprime's Sig Line

[Zer0 Kay]

So how does a power, say the NGR or the CS without the ability to control those things survive in the long term?

With the love and protection of the almighty Kevin...

#Cornholioprime's Sig Line

Which still makes me laugh, every time I read it.

[Killer Cyborg]

I need a little help with a different perspective. The name of the game is RIFTS, and if you've got no power of them your at a disadvantage. Id go so far as to say in the long run you can't efficiently control an area with laylines without the ability to control them and prevent more of those RIFTS you may have heard about from causing trouble.

So how does a power, say the NGR or the CS without the ability to control those things survive in the long term?

Define "long term."

[Riftmaker]

Control an area = make an area with a layline or nexus not be a threat.

long term = umm A LONG TIME. I dont get how this could be more clear.

[Killer Cyborg]

Control an area = make an area with a layline or nexus not be a threat.

long term = umm A LONG TIME. I dont get how this could be more clear.

It's been 300 years since the rifts came.
Do you consider THAT to be a long time?
Or are you thinking more long term?

[eliakon]

Control an area = make an area with a layline or nexus not be a threat.

Can't be done. Now you can minimize threat levels, if you want to define what you consider to be 'acceptably threatening' But with out MASSIVE levels of magic and tech (like Splugorth level massive) no one is going to make every inch of every ley line perfectly safe. And even the Splugorth probably still have issues with random rifts, ley line storms and the like, they just have less of a problem.

[Mack]

I need a little help with a different perspective. The name of the game is RIFTS, and if you've got no power of them your at a disadvantage. Id go so far as to say in the long run you can't efficiently control an area with laylines without the ability to control them and prevent more of those RIFTS you may have heard about from causing trouble.

So how does a power, say the NGR or the CS without the ability to control those things survive in the long term?

1) With lots of rail gun rounds.

2) They don't! This is why the CS has never expanded into the Magic Zone. By default the CS territory is limited to areas where they can manage the infestations.

[Riftmaker]

Control an area = make an area with a layline or nexus not be a threat.

Can't be done. Now you can minimize threat levels, if you want to define what you consider to be 'acceptably threatening' But with out MASSIVE levels of magic and tech (like Splugorth level massive) no one is going to make every inch of every ley line perfectly safe. And even the Splugorth probably still have issues with random rifts, ley line storms and the like, they just have less of a problem.

I pyramid makes the risk negligible, a mage with the right class and spell can stop layline storms and

Control an area = make an area with a layline or nexus not be a threat.

long term = umm A LONG TIME. I dont get how this could be more clear.

It's been 300 years since the rifts came.
Do you consider THAT to be a long time?
Or are you thinking more long term?

Really?

Ok lets say 25 years that's about a generation.

[eliakon]

Control an area = make an area with a layline or nexus not be a threat.

Can't be done. Now you can minimize threat levels, if you want to define what you consider to be 'acceptably threatening' But with out MASSIVE levels of magic and tech (like Splugorth level massive) no one is going to make every inch of every ley line perfectly safe. And even the Splugorth probably still have issues with random rifts, ley line storms and the like, they just have less of a problem.

I pyramid makes the risk negligible, a mage with the right class and spell can stop layline storms and

Except of course that
1) by building pyramids your trading one set of risks for another set. Since all the pyramids are connected interdimensionally, you are making it so that anyone anywhere with a pyramid can open a portal to you, with out fail, and has the resources to keep those portals open. And if they have multiple pyramids they can open multiple portals to the same spot, either at the same time or in sequence. So now you don't face random rifts, but you do face invasion, its just not random now.
2) And the mages can deal with ley line storms....unless of course the storm brews up on top of you. Then your just hosed.

But if this is the basis of what is needed to control then the answer is "Be the Splugorth because no one else on Rifts Earth has anything approaching the resources to be safe"

[Riftmaker]

Control an area = make an area with a layline or nexus not be a threat.

Can't be done. Now you can minimize threat levels, if you want to define what you consider to be 'acceptably threatening' But with out MASSIVE levels of magic and tech (like Splugorth level massive) no one is going to make every inch of every ley line perfectly safe. And even the Splugorth probably still have issues with random rifts, ley line storms and the like, they just have less of a problem.

I pyramid makes the risk negligible, a mage with the right class and spell can stop layline storms and

Except of course that
1) by building pyramids your trading one set of risks for another set. Since all the pyramids are connected interdimensionally, you are making it so that anyone anywhere with a pyramid can open a portal to you, with out fail, and has the resources to keep those portals open. And if they have multiple pyramids they can open multiple portals to the same spot, either at the same time or in sequence. So now you don't face random rifts, but you do face invasion, its just not random now.
2) And the mages can deal with ley line storms....unless of course the storm brews up on top of you. Then your just hosed.

But if this is the basis of what is needed to control then the answer is "Be the Splugorth because no one else on Rifts Earth has anything approaching the resources to be safe"

For the sake of this discussion the pyramid would just be there to cap the the layline and prevent random effects nothing else.

If you can't stop a leyline of nexus from opening rifts or causing line storms you cant really make an area with either safe.

[Killer Cyborg]

Control an area = make an area with a layline or nexus not be a threat.

Can't be done. Now you can minimize threat levels, if you want to define what you consider to be 'acceptably threatening' But with out MASSIVE levels of magic and tech (like Splugorth level massive) no one is going to make every inch of every ley line perfectly safe. And even the Splugorth probably still have issues with random rifts, ley line storms and the like, they just have less of a problem.

I pyramid makes the risk negligible, a mage with the right class and spell can stop layline storms and

Control an area = make an area with a layline or nexus not be a threat.

long term = umm A LONG TIME. I dont get how this could be more clear.

It's been 300 years since the rifts came.
Do you consider THAT to be a long time?
Or are you thinking more long term?

Really?

Ok lets say 25 years that's about a generation.

Both the CS and the NGR have already gone 25+ years.
So just keep doing the same stuff that's been working.

[eliakon]

Control an area = make an area with a layline or nexus not be a threat.

Can't be done. Now you can minimize threat levels, if you want to define what you consider to be 'acceptably threatening' But with out MASSIVE levels of magic and tech (like Splugorth level massive) no one is going to make every inch of every ley line perfectly safe. And even the Splugorth probably still have issues with random rifts, ley line storms and the like, they just have less of a problem.

I pyramid makes the risk negligible, a mage with the right class and spell can stop layline storms and

Except of course that
1) by building pyramids your trading one set of risks for another set. Since all the pyramids are connected interdimensionally, you are making it so that anyone anywhere with a pyramid can open a portal to you, with out fail, and has the resources to keep those portals open. And if they have multiple pyramids they can open multiple portals to the same spot, either at the same time or in sequence. So now you don't face random rifts, but you do face invasion, its just not random now.
2) And the mages can deal with ley line storms....unless of course the storm brews up on top of you. Then your just hosed.

But if this is the basis of what is needed to control then the answer is "Be the Splugorth because no one else on Rifts Earth has anything approaching the resources to be safe"

For the sake of this discussion the pyramid would just be there to cap the the layline and prevent random effects nothing else.

If you can't stop a leyline of nexus from opening rifts or causing line storms you cant really make an area with either safe.

Exactly my point. If the task cant be accomplished by anyone. Ergo if the task cant be accomplished at all, then the question should be redefined to one that CAN be accomplished. The CS for example does a fairly good job of 'controlling' its territory by shooting anything that looks even remotely like it came from a rift and avoiding major nexus areas (like the magic zone)

[Furoan]

World Book 21 outright says that occasionally Temporal-Raiders and other Dimensional people occassionally break into the Market in Atlantis to loot and pillage, so if Atlantis is having trouble I doubt the CS or the NGR are going to be doing better.

That being said, speaking of 'without magic how does the CS survive' I've always wondered why somebody in the Federation of Magic doesn't do something like Teleport to the CS leadership conference while the Emperor is giving a speech(you have 88% chance of success if your going by a Photo, which I assume a live tale-conference counts as, drop a bomb, or a annihilation sphere or such and then teleport out again.

[Killer Cyborg]

World Book 21 outright says that occasionally Temporal-Raiders and other Dimensional people occassionally break into the Market in Atlantis to loot and pillage, so if Atlantis is having trouble I doubt the CS or the NGR are going to be doing better.

That being said, speaking of 'without magic how does the CS survive' I've always wondered why somebody in the Federation of Magic doesn't do something like Teleport to the CS leadership conference while the Emperor is giving a speech(you have 88% chance of success if your going by a Photo, which I assume a live tale-conference counts as, drop a bomb, or a annihilation sphere or such and then teleport out again.

You have to find the right person with the right combination powers/gear who wants to die killing Prosek.
And you'd have to hope that it was really Prosek, not a stand-in.
And any failed attempt would just bring the CS more supporters.

[Furoan]

True enough, I was kind of thinking of that guy leading the 'true' federation of magic whose making bargains with every dark god, demon lord and equivalent he can find. Not that HE would take it up(he has to live to rule after all, but he wants the Emperor GONE.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

I was kind of thinking of that guy who's making bargains with every dark god, demon lord and equivalent he can find.

Tom Cruise?

[SolCannibal]

True enough, I was kind of thinking of that guy leading the 'true' federation of magic whose making bargains with every dark god, demon lord and equivalent he can find. Not that HE would take it up(he has to live to rule after all, but he wants the Emperor GONE.

That said he could possibly arrange for some demon, deevil or similar critter to do the job, as most of them have at least part of the package and probably wouldn't get perma-killed in such an attempt. Not to mention some beings might feel sacrificing their lives to take the enemy nation's head is worth the effort, if the Triax2 book is any indication.

[Shark_Force]

sacrifice what now?

a shifter can open a communication rift to pretty much anywhere for a minimal cost. if you can make or buy a bomb that is about the size of a pigeon (which lots of people can), and you have a few shifters, you can accurately place a bomb into any location in the megaverse that you know of, provided you're willing to allow for multiple attempts (rate of success on an individual attempt is not so good. rate of success over the course of, say, 5-6 attempts is actually very good).

so yeah, i dunno what all this discussion of sacrificing lives to get at prosek is all about if you know where he is. just get a team of people with WI full-auto grenade launchers, open a communication rift to your target destination, and then burst a bunch of grenades through the rift (note: immunity to plasma and the use of plasma grenades highly recommended in case the blast radius includes yourself).

[eliakon]

sacrifice what now?

a shifter can open a communication rift to pretty much anywhere for a minimal cost. if you can make or buy a bomb that is about the size of a pigeon (which lots of people can), and you have a few shifters, you can accurately place a bomb into any location in the megaverse that you know of, provided you're willing to allow for multiple attempts (rate of success on an individual attempt is not so good. rate of success over the course of, say, 5-6 attempts is actually very good).

so yeah, i dunno what all this discussion of sacrificing lives to get at prosek is all about if you know where he is. just get a team of people with WI full-auto grenade launchers, open a communication rift to your target destination, and then burst a bunch of grenades through the rift (note: immunity to plasma and the use of plasma grenades highly recommended in case the blast radius includes yourself).

Which opens a question of 'what can go through a communications rift' and the answer is.....'vague'
Personally as a GM, I would not allow weapons fire, or anything else that's not 'communication' YMMV of course.

[Shark_Force]

it's a rift through which you can send small objects or creatures and sounds. the only special property indicated is that it is quite small (about the size of a grapefruit, which is somewhat vague).

besides, do you really want to create a scenario where people paint messages onto their grenades for use with a communication rift? and in any event, who's to say that trying to kill someone isn't a form of communication (it is, after all, an expression of extreme displeasure with the actions of that person).

[Killer Cyborg]

it's a rift through which you can send small objects or creatures and sounds. the only special property indicated is that it is quite small (about the size of a grapefruit, which is somewhat vague).

It's apparently large enough to fit a Magic Pigeon through, which would be large enough for many kinds of grenades.
Of course, that applies either way, and if the rift opened up near CS troops, it's a safe bet that they'd be returning fire through it, especially if any important personnel were nearby.

Also, the success ratio is only 20%+5%/level, which isn't very high. Performing a ritual gives a +20% bonus, but that's still less than a 50% margin of error.
If the roll fails by up to a 20% margin, the Shifter opens the rift to the wrong location. There is nothing stating that the shifter knows whether the Rift opens to the correct location or not, so it would be GM's call to decide if he/she has that knowledge. If NOT, then there's a 20% chance that the plan would hit innocent targets someplace else, instead of the intended target.

In order to have the low cost (50 PPE), the shifter in question has to have access to a nexus point.

And, as you mentioned yourself, they would have to actually KNOW the location of their target.

[HWalsh]

Possible ways to deal with Lay Lines without magic:

1. Walled cities.

Don't build your city on a lay line. Wall the city and then have decent visibility and/or sensors able to spot potential targets.
The CS already does this.

2. Patrol the edge of the Lay Line... Have heavily armed soldiers patrol the line, with a call back to HQ. If something big comes out, shell it with artillery and/or send air strikes in.

I'm pretty sure the CS already does this.

3. If something comes through that such things don't work on, prepare an evacuation of a blast area and drop the Rifts equal of a tactical nuke on it.

Pretty sure the CS kinda does this.

4. Once the area has been pacified, begin building a wall along the edge of the Lay Line. Block it off. Station heavy automated weaponry on the wall. Program them to fire at anything that they detect.

They haven't done this... Yet.


But yes... You can deal with a Lay Line without needing magic.

[Shark_Force]

[It's apparently large enough to fit a Magic Pigeon through, which would be large enough for many kinds of grenades.
Of course, that applies either way, and if the rift opened up near CS troops, it's a safe bet that they'd be returning fire through it, especially if any important personnel were nearby.

Also, the success ratio is only 20%+5%/level, which isn't very high. Performing a ritual gives a +20% bonus, but that's still less than a 50% margin of error.
If the roll fails by up to a 20% margin, the Shifter opens the rift to the wrong location. There is nothing stating that the shifter knows whether the Rift opens to the correct location or not, so it would be GM's call to decide if he/she has that knowledge. If NOT, then there's a 20% chance that the plan would hit innocent targets someplace else, instead of the intended target.

In order to have the low cost (50 PPE), the shifter in question has to have access to a nexus point.

And, as you mentioned yourself, they would have to actually KNOW the location of their target.

- i did mention that a bomb smaller than a pigeon was suitable in an earlier post (on the basis that the magic pigeon is the size of an actual pigeon, iirc).
- yes, CS troops could return fire, but the shifter can end the effect whenever he wants and it's relatively unlikely that the CS will have people standing in exactly the right position, with guns ready and aimed at the rift. in comparison, it's quite easy for the shifter to set up. but yes, in theory they could get a retaliation attack or several (again, depending on situation that may be quite futile; for example, if they only have energy rifles). of course, considering the shifter's side has deliberately prepared overwhelming firepower and is fairly likely to catch the enemy at least partially surprised (not fully surprised; if you're important enough to be worth telebombing, you're important enough to have a bodyguard with sixth sense). so, it's entirely possible that there will be no return fire for the simple reason that everybody just took several hundred MDC from a sustained grenade barrage or whatever.
- i did mention that it was accurate over multiple attempts, and further already noted that on individual attempts it's inaccurate. but yes, if you let fly the instant the rift opens without making any effort to confirm it's the right place you're going to wind up bombarding a lot of different places, and more often than not it won't be the place you want (there is no indication whether you can see through or not, but it's quite clear that you *can* hear through it at least, and presumably if a camera passed through could broadcast what it's seeing. linking the camera's feed to the visor of the person responsible for unleashing the barrage would be a wise idea).
- knowing the location is indeed somewhat of a challenge. it is not, however, by any means insurmountable, and there is no indication of what constitutes "knowing" the location. for example, if you own a scrying device of some sort which lets you see a person, is "the place that i'm seeing" sufficient? maybe, maybe not (of course, actual scrying devices seem to be fairly rare and expensive).

[HWalsh]

[It's apparently large enough to fit a Magic Pigeon through, which would be large enough for many kinds of grenades.
Of course, that applies either way, and if the rift opened up near CS troops, it's a safe bet that they'd be returning fire through it, especially if any important personnel were nearby.

Also, the success ratio is only 20%+5%/level, which isn't very high. Performing a ritual gives a +20% bonus, but that's still less than a 50% margin of error.
If the roll fails by up to a 20% margin, the Shifter opens the rift to the wrong location. There is nothing stating that the shifter knows whether the Rift opens to the correct location or not, so it would be GM's call to decide if he/she has that knowledge. If NOT, then there's a 20% chance that the plan would hit innocent targets someplace else, instead of the intended target.

In order to have the low cost (50 PPE), the shifter in question has to have access to a nexus point.

And, as you mentioned yourself, they would have to actually KNOW the location of their target.

- i did mention that a bomb smaller than a pigeon was suitable in an earlier post (on the basis that the magic pigeon is the size of an actual pigeon, iirc).
- yes, CS troops could return fire, but the shifter can end the effect whenever he wants and it's relatively unlikely that the CS will have people standing in exactly the right position, with guns ready and aimed at the rift. in comparison, it's quite easy for the shifter to set up. but yes, in theory they could get a retaliation attack or several (again, depending on situation that may be quite futile; for example, if they only have energy rifles). of course, considering the shifter's side has deliberately prepared overwhelming firepower and is fairly likely to catch the enemy at least partially surprised (not fully surprised; if you're important enough to be worth telebombing, you're important enough to have a bodyguard with sixth sense). so, it's entirely possible that there will be no return fire for the simple reason that everybody just took several hundred MDC from a sustained grenade barrage or whatever.
- i did mention that it was accurate over multiple attempts, and further already noted that on individual attempts it's inaccurate. but yes, if you let fly the instant the rift opens without making any effort to confirm it's the right place you're going to wind up bombarding a lot of different places, and more often than not it won't be the place you want (there is no indication whether you can see through or not, but it's quite clear that you *can* hear through it at least, and presumably if a camera passed through could broadcast what it's seeing. linking the camera's feed to the visor of the person responsible for unleashing the barrage would be a wise idea).
- knowing the location is indeed somewhat of a challenge. it is not, however, by any means insurmountable, and there is no indication of what constitutes "knowing" the location. for example, if you own a scrying device of some sort which lets you see a person, is "the place that i'm seeing" sufficient? maybe, maybe not (of course, actual scrying devices seem to be fairly rare and expensive).

Let me set up the most likely situation for you though... Why this wouldn't likely work.

Okay, lets assume that Emperor Prosek has a security detail... Because well... Common sense.

He's got a Psi-Stalker, or a Dog Boy, or just a Psychic... That Psychic has Danger Sense.

So... Your caster opens the portal... Surprise action... Security yells, "Threat incoming!" before that even happens. The Emperor is protected. Force Field. TK Force Field. Simply running like heck.The chance of your attack succeeding? Nil. (Also, I doubt Prosek ever goes anywhere without armor. Explosions only damage main body MDC. Even helmetless he's gonna be hard to hurt.)

The backlash?

Well... Some vile, sick, sorcerer just tried to assassinate the great and benevolent Emperor Karl Prosek using demonic powers... The CS citizens call for everyone to come together and wipe these evil things out once and for all... The CS is strengthened and the Federation of Magic is in deep trouble.

The upside?

We get a new book series! Seige on the Federation of Magic!

[Alrik Vas]

Come on guys, the CS can deal for the same reason their enemies still exist: the world is supposed to remain static until a new book comes out.

[Shark_Force]

i'm not entirely certain you appreciate what a full-auto barrage from a grenade launcher does (let alone multiple barrages, as i've suggested). body armour is not even remotely enough, whether it hits every location or not. multiple force fields are better... but anything that isn't protected by multiple force fields is likely to be dead. even in the CS, mind melters are pretty rare, which means that before long (assuming repeated attempts; magic can use a ley line for power, and in any event even a single mind melter lost is huge) he'd be down to just body armour, and then he dies along with anyone else in the area.

yes, there are ways to help defend against it. body armour is not the solution, however.

also, PR drawbacks are pretty much meaningless. prosek will create fake attacks on himself any time he feels like it, so if he wants an attack, he'll stage one and be much much safer than he would be in a real one.

most likely, defences focus on other areas. such as doing everything you can to obscure what the actual location is, body doubles (as mentioned upthread), not placing large groups of important people in the same room if you can help it, not keeping a regular schedule (and protecting the irregular schedule from being discovered), never broadcasting live, never appearing in public for real, etc. that, and running away; potentially, you've got up to a minute of sixth sense from his body guards (TK force fields are uncommon; sixth sense, they can manufacture hundreds every day). use that time to not be there when the barrage of grenades gets there (the flip side is that it could also be 15 seconds, or even less depending on other magic used).

[HWalsh]

i'm not entirely certain you appreciate what a full-auto barrage from a grenade launcher does (let alone multiple barrages, as i've suggested). body armour is not even remotely enough, whether it hits every location or not. multiple force fields are better... but anything that isn't protected by multiple force fields is likely to be dead. even in the CS, mind melters are pretty rare, which means that before long (assuming repeated attempts; magic can use a ley line for power, and in any event even a single mind melter lost is huge) he'd be down to just body armour, and then he dies along with anyone else in the area.

yes, there are ways to help defend against it. body armour is not the solution, however.

also, PR drawbacks are pretty much meaningless. prosek will create fake attacks on himself any time he feels like it, so if he wants an attack, he'll stage one and be much much safer than he would be in a real one.

most likely, defences focus on other areas. such as doing everything you can to obscure what the actual location is, body doubles (as mentioned upthread), not placing large groups of important people in the same room if you can help it, not keeping a regular schedule (and protecting the irregular schedule from being discovered), never broadcasting live, never appearing in public for real, etc. that, and running away; potentially, you've got up to a minute of sixth sense from his body guards (TK force fields are uncommon; sixth sense, they can manufacture hundreds every day). use that time to not be there when the barrage of grenades gets there (the flip side is that it could also be 15 seconds, or even less depending on other magic used).

Exactly.

Sixth Sense, 15 seconds minimum usually to get outside of the LOS of a tiny hole. Game, set, match. Your plan has maybe a 5% chance of working. As to fabricating a threat? Sure... He could... However a REAL attack is far better. On top of that they do use doubles, and probably other precautions. It simply isn't as easy as you seem to think it would be.

I know how much the grenade launcher can do... I also know the unlikely situation where you could fire it successfully. Even more amusing if someone blocks the hole. Then the grenades explode at entry point and likely kills the grenadier.

[glitterboy2098]

1: Rifts don't open up non-stop. While a rift is more likely to open up on a ley line, that doesn't mean it's happening every hour, every day, or even every week. The only information we have on rifts opening up on a ley line are during ley line storms (with no clue how common these are, and there's still only a 1 in 5 chance of a rift opening). Then we have the four Equinoxes as well as Eclipses. So, with the exception of the ley line storms, these other events can be planned around. Set up surveillance, increase patrols heavier during those times, or just hold down the fort and try to ride it out until the night passes, then clean up whatever's left (if anything hasn't just went back home, or killed other beings that also came through the rifts, wandered off out of your territory, etc.).

the last few pages of the Adventure Guide deal with Rifts and their odds of opening.

first, they don't list a chance of a randomly occuring rift for any time other than special days.. equinox's, solstices, and eclipses. this suggests the odds of one opening on any other day are so low as to be effectively non-existant. (barring of course GM fiat)

on the equinox's (periods when the day/night cycle is at their most uneven), the following odds apply for the day (vernal equinox) or night (autumnal equinox) each hour:
20% on a ley line, 30% on a nexus, 50% on a super nexus.

on the solstices (the days when day/night are equal), it is the following for each hour of the 24 hour day..
30% on a ley line, 50% on a nexus, 70% on a super nexus. and for leylines and regular nexi, sunset causes the odds to increase somewhat, but only for a few minutes.

on a lunar eclipse, during the period of the eclipse, you have the following chances:
15% for ley line, 77% for nexus, 95% for a super nexus.

on a solar eclipse, there is a 21% chance a huge rift might occur in mid air anywhere. if one does not appear, you have the following: 25% ley line, 50% nexus, 100% at a super nexus.
(presumably the eclipse ones would only apply to those areas of the planet where the eclipse is visible)

note the durations and types of rifts that occur (periodic, permanent, random, etc , plus things like stability, world links, etc) vary depending on where it opens and on what day/event.. too much info to post here.

since these are all easily predictable timeframes for rift activity, it would not be too hard to put your defenses on high alert in advance. their main worry would actually be intentionally created rifts being used to move enemies around.. since those can open at any time and with no warning.

[Shark_Force]

Exactly.

Sixth Sense, 15 seconds minimum usually to get outside of the LOS of a tiny hole. Game, set, match. Your plan has maybe a 5% chance of working. As to fabricating a threat? Sure... He could... However a REAL attack is far better. On top of that they do use doubles, and probably other precautions. It simply isn't as easy as you seem to think it would be.

I know how much the grenade launcher can do... I also know the unlikely situation where you could fire it successfully. Even more amusing if someone blocks the hole. Then the grenades explode at entry point and likely kills the grenadier.

no, 15 seconds assuming they have no other spells in use to reduce it further (for example, time slip has a restriction on damaging people, but not for creating rifts... so there goes half of that time). furthermore, 15 seconds is not as much time as you seem to think in the first place. especially if there are any security measures in place on doors etc.

also, someone blocking the hole is incredibly improbable. sixth sense gives a warning that *something* is coming. it doesn't tell you what it is, when it will be (beyond "within the next minute"), or where it will come from. plus, the AOE will mean that it likely doesn't matter all that much if the hole is blocked (and i did already suggest a simple plan for making the group attempting the assassination immune to fire, and thus immune to the plasma grenades i proposed).

furthermore, it doesn't have to kill prosek himself for the plan to work. if you can kill off all of his high-ranking officers one by one, plus some of their security details, you're inflicting serious damage.

[eliakon]

Exactly.

Sixth Sense, 15 seconds minimum usually to get outside of the LOS of a tiny hole. Game, set, match. Your plan has maybe a 5% chance of working. As to fabricating a threat? Sure... He could... However a REAL attack is far better. On top of that they do use doubles, and probably other precautions. It simply isn't as easy as you seem to think it would be.

I know how much the grenade launcher can do... I also know the unlikely situation where you could fire it successfully. Even more amusing if someone blocks the hole. Then the grenades explode at entry point and likely kills the grenadier.

no, 15 seconds assuming they have no other spells in use to reduce it further (for example, time slip has a restriction on damaging people, but not for creating rifts... so there goes half of that time). furthermore, 15 seconds is not as much time as you seem to think in the first place. especially if there are any security measures in place on doors etc.

also, someone blocking the hole is incredibly improbable. sixth sense gives a warning that *something* is coming. it doesn't tell you what it is, when it will be (beyond "within the next minute"), or where it will come from. plus, the AOE will mean that it likely doesn't matter all that much if the hole is blocked (and i did already suggest a simple plan for making the group attempting the assassination immune to fire, and thus immune to the plasma grenades i proposed).

furthermore, it doesn't have to kill prosek himself for the plan to work. if you can kill off all of his high-ranking officers one by one, plus some of their security details, you're inflicting serious damage.

1 I don't think you can perform the 'communications rift' in a time slip (its a ritual, you need more than seven seconds to perform it)
2 the sixth sense could very well go off before the timeslip anyway
3 precognition/clairvoyance is a much more likely power to have to deal with

The biggest thing is these sorts of shenanigans are why I said that I don't think that the communications rift should be allowed to be used for anything but talking. Though if your game is improved with random dimensional assassinations via rift against anyone who has ever upset anyone who can pay a shifter (and its actually used on more than just a 'we killed prosek were cool' plot devices work both ways, if this is around expect it to be used on your PCs) Then more power to you. Since I don't envision the world as written as having problems with random unstoppable, unpredictable, attacks against anyone who has enemies I would just flatly say "No it doesn't work." and go on running the game, regardless of my players attempts to make it unplayable.

[Zer0 Kay]

Did this just seriously turn into another how to get to Prosek thread with 6th sense being the primary counter?

[eliakon]

Did this just seriously turn into another how to get to Prosek thread with 6th sense being the primary counter?

With a side order of "why don't people just teleport nukes into Chi Town (or where ever)"

[HWalsh]

I would, however, like to see an update where the CS gets taken down a peg.

[kaid]

One thing to note about pyramid creation is you need somebody skilled in their creation to build them correctly for magical effect and stone magic users are not terribly common. Bigger cities like tolkeen/lazlo/new lazlo seem to have them but many smaller magic communities don't.

The CS holds its own by mostly fortifying areas with little ley line/nexus activity and fortifying the heck out of what they control going for few mega fortress cities instead of many smaller/mid sized more open cities. Also note with the RSCG they do have some who have understanding of leylines. They also have a pretty huge amount of psychic sensitives between psi stalkers and dogboys so if magic users get into their areas of control they at least have pretty good detection capabilities. If you look at some of the numbers listed the CS states while not using magic have one of the biggest forces of "special" forces with the amount of psychics they have which helps tip the balance for them.

If you look at the northern gun it is another similar case of where tech societies survived and rebuilt in areas that were both more physically stable/less prone to disasters and largely devoid of ley lines.

[Shark_Force]

it's also worth noting that pyramids suck massively for a magic-using society. they're good for controlling ley lines as far as storms and random rifts are concerned, but they also lock out anyone from using the ley line who isn't inside the pyramid and have an extremely tiny amount of PPE compared to what can be drawn from a ley line or nexus stored inside said pyramid.

what they are good for to a magician is securing a ley line for your personal use and locking out everyone else, if you can keep the pyramid in your own hands.

tolkeen doesn't have pyramids, for the record. they have some sort of crazy TW building that prevents ley line storms and random rifts (but apparently can only handle excessive amounts of PPE in storm and rift form, because it did nothing to stop the ley lines from borking something fierce when the CS killed everyone).

[eliakon]

it's also worth noting that pyramids suck massively for a magic-using society. they're good for controlling ley lines as far as storms and random rifts are concerned, but they also lock out anyone from using the ley line who isn't inside the pyramid and have an extremely tiny amount of PPE compared to what can be drawn from a ley line or nexus stored inside said pyramid.

what they are good for to a magician is securing a ley line for your personal use and locking out everyone else, if you can keep the pyramid in your own hands.

tolkeen doesn't have pyramids, for the record. they have some sort of crazy TW building that prevents ley line storms and random rifts (but apparently can only handle excessive amounts of PPE in storm and rift form, because it did nothing to stop the ley lines from borking something fierce when the CS killed everyone).

Well the system was blown up too...so part of the 'borking' was a backlash from the destruction of the control systems....
Which is not exactly a stellar recommend for building such a system. "Its a great stabilizer...just don't let it break"

[Zer0 Kay]

Did this just seriously turn into another how to get to Prosek thread with 6th sense being the primary counter?

With a side order of "why don't people just teleport nukes into Chi Town (or where ever)"

I produce a virus that is hard to contract, lives out of a host for a long time, and when contract is rarely lethal but is most certainly lethal and yet easily treated. I teleport several incubators into the air handlers of chi town, including those of the royal pallace, since you know his air is special. Why? Because then the 6th sense of his psi guards will be going off constantly and will be very funny.

[Daniel Stoker]

Well the system was blown up too...so part of the 'borking' was a backlash from the destruction of the control systems....
Which is not exactly a stellar recommend for building such a system. "Its a great stabilizer...just don't let it break"

Meh, you have the same issues with dams. They're great for stopping rivers from flooding and you can even generate power from them... but if they break and the water gets free everyone down stream is *******'d.


Daniel Stoker

[Shark_Force]

on a side note, the building may have repaired itself since then. though i don't recall any specific mention of it being destroyed in the first place, it's been a *long* time since i read those books, and it likely wouldn't have been more than a sentence or two, so i could easily have missed it or forgotten.

but in any event, we do know that pretty much the entire town was made MDC and infinitely regenerates. which would imply that the ley line regulator device is also MDC and infinitely regenerates.

[SolCannibal]

it's also worth noting that pyramids suck massively for a magic-using society. they're good for controlling ley lines as far as storms and random rifts are concerned, but they also lock out anyone from using the ley line who isn't inside the pyramid and have an extremely tiny amount of PPE compared to what can be drawn from a ley line or nexus stored inside said pyramid.

what they are good for to a magician is securing a ley line for your personal use and locking out everyone else, if you can keep the pyramid in your own hands.

tolkeen doesn't have pyramids, for the record. they have some sort of crazy TW building that prevents ley line storms and random rifts (but apparently can only handle excessive amounts of PPE in storm and rift form, because it did nothing to stop the ley lines from borking something fierce when the CS killed everyone).

Well the system was blown up too...so part of the 'borking' was a backlash from the destruction of the control systems....
Which is not exactly a stellar recommend for building such a system. "Its a great stabilizer...just don't let it break"

Well, can't the same be said of a lot of human creations?

[Blue_Lion]

Lots of big guns. Most supernatural threats lack long range attacks. They use things like psi stalkers and psi battalion to deal with ones they can't affect with tech/silver.