Megaverse in Flames questions

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RiftJunkie
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Megaverse in Flames questions

Unread post by RiftJunkie »

First off, I have to say that I love this book! The various demon/Deevil Hell Lords have some really cool tweeks to them. Lots of great info on the setting, twisted toys, etc.

My questions are:
How can demon units (Mixed Infantry Squad, Infantry Platoon, Heavy Infantry Shock Troops, Light Aerial Company) be led by sub-demons? Even a Gargoyle Mage or Gargoyle Lord are still sub-demons and as such, I find it hard to believe that even Lesser Demons would submit to their will.

How can a Demon High Priest command a Heavy Scouting Party? The Priest is trained that he is lesser than even sub-demons. When the Priest summons demons, he is polite in asking those demons to aid him in serving his masters wishes. Asking is not commanding and when push comes to shove, a strong presence is needed to lead.

How can a Mortal lead a Demon/Deevil Army? This should be self explanatory. Even if you consider Dunscon as an example, he is now much more than mortal.
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Re: Megaverse in Flames questions

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

RiftJunkie wrote:First off, I have to say that I love this book! The various demon/Deevil Hell Lords have some really cool tweeks to them. Lots of great info on the setting, twisted toys, etc.

My questions are:
How can demon units (Mixed Infantry Squad, Infantry Platoon, Heavy Infantry Shock Troops, Light Aerial Company) be led by sub-demons? Even a Gargoyle Mage or Gargoyle Lord are still sub-demons and as such, I find it hard to believe that even Lesser Demons would submit to their will.

How can a Demon High Priest command a Heavy Scouting Party? The Priest is trained that he is lesser than even sub-demons. When the Priest summons demons, he is polite in asking those demons to aid him in serving his masters wishes. Asking is not commanding and when push comes to shove, a strong presence is needed to lead.

How can a Mortal lead a Demon/Deevil Army? This should be self explanatory. Even if you consider Dunscon as an example, he is now much more than mortal.


Because raw power dosn't mean they have the knowlege/experiance/tactics to lead in battle?

Most demons are solitary creatures. they don't know anything about how to lead a group. So the demon lords are forced to rely on weaker beings such as sub demons and even preists and mortals to lead. not because of personal power, but because they are far more likely to know how to use the army/scouting party well.

It's not personal power, it's military knowlege.

And the greater demons obey because if they don't their own demon lord will destroy them, or worse. they obey a mortal if their demon lord commands it because they ARE scared of the demon lord backing the mortal.

Most of the demon lords have very high IQ scores. if they have to choose between a Horror with no experiance whatsoever in leading or working in a group, or a preist with experiance in military matters and small and medium group stratagies and tactics, the preist gets put in charge.
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Re: Megaverse in Flames questions

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

If High Priests have power sponsored by the Demon Lord and they summon demons, perhaps the squads you see are the demons the priest has summoned. They have to wrangle them from time to time, but it makes sense they could be in charge solong as they stay on top in the battle of wills.
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Re: Megaverse in Flames questions

Unread post by Proseksword »

RiftJunkie wrote:How can demon units (Mixed Infantry Squad, Infantry Platoon, Heavy Infantry Shock Troops, Light Aerial Company) be led by sub-demons? Even a Gargoyle Mage or Gargoyle Lord are still sub-demons and as such, I find it hard to believe that even Lesser Demons would submit to their will.


pg.17 of DB10: Hades describes the hierarchy of Hades, and describes "Demon Task Master" as the highest rank a Sub-Demon can achieve. It is a title which holds a higher authority than Minion status, which includes all rank and file Lesser Demons. Apparently, there are exceptions which allow Sub-Demons to rise above and command Lesser Demons, but I presume that most Gargoyle Lords will be commanding squads of nearly all Gargoyles/Gurgoyles, and that it will be the rare squad of all Lesser Demons serving resentfully under the command of a Gargoyle Lord.

How can a Demon High Priest command a Heavy Scouting Party? The Priest is trained that he is lesser than even sub-demons. When the Priest summons demons, he is polite in asking those demons to aid him in serving his masters wishes. Asking is not commanding and when push comes to shove, a strong presence is needed to lead.

How can a Mortal lead a Demon/Deevil Army? This should be self explanatory. Even if you consider Dunscon as an example, he is now much more than mortal.


pg.16 HB: 10 Hades "Although such henchmen are generally viewed as pathetic lesser beings even by the demons they serve, they may achieve elevated positions and ranks within demon society, such as ranking officers in the demon army, special agents (i.e. spies, assassins, enforcers, commandos, etc., especially in the realms of mortals), and even Warlord or Duke of an infernal realm, though the latter is rare indeed."
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Re: Megaverse in Flames questions

Unread post by Tor »

RiftJunkie wrote:How can demon units (Mixed Infantry Squad, Infantry Platoon, Heavy Infantry Shock Troops, Light Aerial Company) be led by sub-demons? Even a Gargoyle Mage or Gargoyle Lord are still sub-demons and as such, I find it hard to believe that even Lesser Demons would submit to their will.


I always found that odd, I think we should take this to mean things have changed.

I mean, if we think about it... Mages/Lords are on par with Greater Demons in terms of how many a Summoner can control, qualifying as 2 Lesser Demons.

Especially with Shifters being able to do 2 sub-demons per demon, I take it to mean roughly that 4 gargoyles = 2 lesser demons = 1 lord/mage gargoyle.

I think early on that sub-demons like the lord/mage gargoyle got scorn from lesser demons, but that lately, with their utility demonstrated during the war, they must now be receiving greater respect from Modeus and Charon and other guys in charge.

I wouldn't be surprised if we soon saw gargoyle lord/mage characters (particularly those weirdos who go above and beyond and learn to become Wizards or Herbalists) being promoted to Lesser/Greater demon ranks.

I think that Gurgoyles will still remain Brodkil-like sub-demons, but that Gargoyles may eventually get promoted to Lesser Demon status and that Gargoyle Mages/Lords will get promoted to Greater Demon status. This war is a great time for them to pursue that recognition. Much like the Deevil Host (effectively sub-Deevils) in the Dyval sourcebook aspire to be promoted to Lesser Deevil status in compensation for their work.

This kind of promotion (perhaps with added powers) would also help set apart Hades Gargoyles from mundane BtS/NGR Gargoyles. Kind of like Dyval introduced the 'Dire Harpy' as an enhanced version of the basic Harpy.
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Re: Megaverse in Flames questions

Unread post by Bood Samel »

Hey does megaverse in flames go into that demonic biker gang in detail?
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Re: Megaverse in Flames questions

Unread post by Grell »

Another advantage to being led by a sub demon or mortal henchman is that if anything goes wrong, it's the one in charge that pays the price. I think a demon's pride is often trumped by their sense of self preservation. :)
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Re: Megaverse in Flames questions

Unread post by kaid »

One of the funny things is one of the "hell lords" is a basic imp that through luck and chutzpa is managing to lead a small army in the minion war. In general the lesser and sub demons are not leaders but if one has the raw power/leadership ability or just plain in the right place at the right time they can lead other in theory more powerful minions.
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Re: Megaverse in Flames questions

Unread post by Tor »

Imps are from Dyval though, they serve Santa. I thought Hell Lord was a Hades rank... I thought the highest-ranking Imp was Pourmoure on page 199 of WB11, who is a Regent. Then there is Spuntz on page 197 who is Regent-equivalent although technically a King.
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Re: Megaverse in Flames questions

Unread post by RiftJunkie »

While I understand wanting experience in leaders, it still seems unlikely for sub-demons to be in charge of anything but sub-demons. Probably a horrible analogy but I see it like the KKK taking orders from an African-American or the Nazi's obeying a Jew. No derogatory reference from me, just a frame of mind on how the demons might behave. DB 10 Hades page 16 says: "While they are allowed to have rank and rule their own kind (e.g., other Gargoyles), they are NEVER allowed to rule or lead other demons, not even Lesser ones, nor even mortal worshipers and henchmen." Is this just bad proofreading/editing? Demon psychology might allow mortals to lead as demons can be summoned by mere humans and controlled by magic or the use of their true name. The demons won't like it, but they would follow. Sub-demons would never be allowed to gain the power to summon or have some demons true name under any circumstance. The demons would wipe out entire flocks/clans/whatever you want to call them just to keep them subservient.
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Re: Megaverse in Flames questions

Unread post by kaid »

Tor wrote:Imps are from Dyval though, they serve Santa. I thought Hell Lord was a Hades rank... I thought the highest-ranking Imp was Pourmoure on page 199 of WB11, who is a Regent. Then there is Spuntz on page 197 who is Regent-equivalent although technically a King.



In the megaverse in flames one of the minion factions is led by an imp who has just through luck and finding other minions that have fled from battle or been cut off and forming them into a small force and the others are accepting his leadership because so far he has done a pretty good job tactically.
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Re: Megaverse in Flames questions

Unread post by Kagashi »

RiftJunkie wrote:While I understand wanting experience in leaders, it still seems unlikely for sub-demons to be in charge of anything but sub-demons. Probably a horrible analogy but I see it like the KKK taking orders from an African-American or the Nazi's obeying a Jew. No derogatory reference from me, just a frame of mind on how the demons might behave. DB 10 Hades page 16 says: "While they are allowed to have rank and rule their own kind (e.g., other Gargoyles), they are NEVER allowed to rule or lead other demons, not even Lesser ones, nor even mortal worshipers and henchmen." Is this just bad proofreading/editing? Demon psychology might allow mortals to lead as demons can be summoned by mere humans and controlled by magic or the use of their true name. The demons won't like it, but they would follow. Sub-demons would never be allowed to gain the power to summon or have some demons true name under any circumstance. The demons would wipe out entire flocks/clans/whatever you want to call them just to keep them subservient.


Just another example of Palladium not following their own canon. This is why I adopted the following rule: When a conflict arises, take the most recent printing as canon. In this case, the general rule DB10 applies everywhere, but concerning the attack on Rifts Earth, the Demons made an exception. I see it like how in space (fleets of the 3 galaxies), Kittani commanders outrank traditionally higher caste species in the Splugorth chain of command. Of course, I say this not have seen MiF yet, so a similar statement may be present in MiF, I just dont know about it.
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Re: Megaverse in Flames questions

Unread post by Tor »

RiftJunkie wrote:I see it like the KKK taking orders from an African-American or the Nazi's obeying a Jew. No derogatory reference from me, just a frame of mind on how the demons might behave.

That does not resemble how I think demons think of Dyvalians, much less sub-demons. Nazis were wiping out Jews, lesser and greater demons were not wiping out sub-demons.

Maybe a Dog-Boy leading a human soldier or a Maxi-Man leading an Overlord or a Gigante leading a Cernun would be better ones.

RiftJunkie wrote:DB 10 Hades page 16 says: "While they are allowed to have rank and rule their own kind (e.g., other Gargoyles), they are NEVER allowed to rule or lead other demons, not even Lesser ones, nor even mortal worshipers and henchmen." Is this just bad proofreading/editing?


Perhaps we could take this to refer to normal Gargoyles and not the superior Lord or Mage variant.
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Re: Megaverse in Flames questions

Unread post by Proseksword »

Tor wrote:Perhaps we could take this to refer to normal Gargoyles and not the superior Lord or Mage variant.


That's how I read it.
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Re: Megaverse in Flames questions

Unread post by Kagashi »

Proseksword wrote:
Tor wrote:Perhaps we could take this to refer to normal Gargoyles and not the superior Lord or Mage variant.


That's how I read it.


I read it as the entire race, like the description in the paragraph details. This includes all Gargoyles, including Mages and Lords. Because if it didn't, the second sentence of the top right paragraph would read "Gargoyles, Gurgoyles, Gargoylites, Brodkil and other Sub-Demons..." If we were singling out Gargoyles specifically (as opposed to the Gargoyle Race), this altered sentence would be needed because within the Gargoyle Hierarchy, Gurgoyles are a lower caste than Gargoyles and they would need to be included.

Instead, it just generalizes Gargoyles as a race, which the first sentence of the section of the Sub-Demon entry specifically includes Lords and Mages. MiF contradicts this entry, especially when the word "NEVER" is capitalized, emphasizing that point. Instead, like true Palladium fashion, they contradict previous canon.
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Re: Megaverse in Flames questions

Unread post by RiftJunkie »

Tor wrote:
RiftJunkie wrote:I see it like the KKK taking orders from an African-American or the Nazi's obeying a Jew. No derogatory reference from me, just a frame of mind on how the demons might behave.

That does not resemble how I think demons think of Dyvalians, much less sub-demons. Nazis were wiping out Jews, lesser and greater demons were not wiping out sub-demons.

Maybe a Dog-Boy leading a human soldier or a Maxi-Man leading an Overlord or a Gigante leading a Cernun would be better ones.

RiftJunkie wrote:DB 10 Hades page 16 says: "While they are allowed to have rank and rule their own kind (e.g., other Gargoyles), they are NEVER allowed to rule or lead other demons, not even Lesser ones, nor even mortal worshipers and henchmen." Is this just bad proofreading/editing?


Perhaps we could take this to refer to normal Gargoyles and not the superior Lord or Mage variant.


I can see your point. I was going on the premise of sub-demons being looked upon as an inferior race. I don't believe all Nazi's knew of the attempted extermination of the Jews. (No, I'm not a Nazi supporter.) I do believe that they (the Nazi's) thought that they were the superior race. As such, the Nazi's would look down on their inferiors. How many adults are willing to take orders from a 5th grader?

Also on page 16 of DB10: Sub-Demons: In Hades, the Gargoyle race(Gargoyles, Gurgoyles, Gargoylites, Gargoyle Mages, and Gargoyle Lords) is the primary Sub-Demon of the realm.

The way this is presented, leads me to believe that they are considered "ONE" race by the demons.
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Re: Megaverse in Flames questions

Unread post by Tor »

I get the sense Gargoyles can give birth to Mages/Lords but that Gargoylites/Gurgoyles can only breed themselves... though it would be interesting if Gargoylites were just runty Lords and Gurgoyles were just mutated Gargoyles (or Vice Versa) with random chances.

Like maybe if 2 Gurgoyles had a 10% chance to beget a Gargoyle and 2 Gargoyles had a 20% chance to beget a Gurgoyle, that'd be interesting.
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Re: Megaverse in Flames questions

Unread post by Lenwen »

RiftJunkie wrote:
How can a Mortal lead a Demon/Deevil Army? This should be self explanatory. Even if you consider Dunscon as an example, he is now much more than mortal.

I went the rout of the demons an devils searching for mortal souls .. That are dark masters of tactics
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Re: Megaverse in Flames questions

Unread post by wadou25 »

I view it like the splugorth sure lesser beings are despised but ones that command great power are respected
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Re: Megaverse in Flames questions

Unread post by Furoan »

Respected to a LIMITED degree. As it said repeatedly even people who have sold their souls to their Evil Masters etc are still views as mildly pathetic for their weakness by Demon's. Even powerful mages etc re still regarded as lower beings compared to the Demons/Deevils.

I wonder if its kind of like how a experienced squad is given a very green lieutenant who basically went in as a Officer straight up. Sure nominally he's in charge...but all the Demons are making snide comments behind his back and theirs a sense that the Demon is doing what he says...for now, but that could change.
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