Skelebots vs a Glitterboy

[Acid0philus]

There is a weird irony in this... The skelebots are based off of NEMA's drones, and the Glitterboy is the Chromium Guardsman of NEMA...

[HWalsh]

I look at the situation a little differently... Assuming that it is 8 Skelebots vs (what they perceive as) a lone Glitterboy would it make sense to attempt ranged combat?

The weakest, and most dangerous, point on the Glitterboy is the Boom Gun. Thus it would be very important to destroy that weapon first. In fact, without destroying that weapon, there is almost no chance of defeating the Glitterboy.

Assuming the Glitterboy has 8 attacks per melee, and the Skelebots have 5, we can extrapolate that, using averages that each successful Skelebot hit will do 12 MD, (6 in the first round) and each successful Glitterboy hit will do around 70... We know, in a ranged fight like this, using the 1-4 rule on misses that the Glitterboy and the Skelebots will hit each other approximately 80% of the time at range.

So the way I see this is, each Skelebot gets (effectively) 2 attacks per melee and one movement action. In this case, though, I look at it simply as such...

(Assuming the Glitterboy has initiative on every round)

Glitterboy fires, damaging, but not destroying, one Skelebot.

Skelebots 1-8 fire, aiming at the boom gun, the Boom gun takes approximately 48 damage total.

The Glitterboy fires, destroying the first Skelebot. (7 Skelebots remain.)

Skelebots 1-7 fire, aiming at the boom gun, statistically 2 of these should miss, the Boom gun takes approximately 36 damage. Bringing the Boom Gun damage to 84.

The Glitterboy fires, damaging another Skelebot.

The Skelebots, at this time, use their remaining actions to dodge and/or seek cover. This, statistically, would help only once against the Glitterboy's remaining 5 attacks. Meaning that at the end of round 1 the previously damaged Skelebot is destroyed, and another one is destroyed, and one is damaged. Meaning that 5 Skelebots remain.

Round 2:
The Glitterboy pilot shoots, and destroys the previously damaged Skelebot, 4 Skelebots remain.

All 4 Skelebots fire, aiming at the Boom Gun, the boom gun takes 48 damage, bringing the total damage to the Boom Gun to 132.

The Glitterboy fires, another Skelebot is damaged.

The next 4 Skelebots fire, aiming at the Boom Gun, 1 of these will statistically miss, the boom gun takes an additional 36 damage. Bringing the total damage to the Boom Gun to 168... It is likely the Boom Gun, at this point could be destroyed if the damage variance was high, if it is NOT... Then the Glitterboy will likely win the encounter.

The Glitterboy has 6 attacks remaining. Assuming one attack misses, in keeping with the standard variance, 5 successful hits will result in 3 more dead Skelebots... Leaving 1 remaining...

The Glitterboy fires first, this damages the Skelebot...

The Skelebot aims for the Boom Gun, the Skelebot hits, the boom gun is destroyed, the Glitterboy employs a simultaneous shot, the last Skelebot is simultaneously destroyed.

Statistically speaking, giving the Skelebots average damage variance, and average strike percentages, the idea that the Skelebots would attempt, 8 on 1, to take a Glitterboy in ranged combat is a bad combat decision. Thus I have to go with the original poster, his battle strategy has a higher percentage chance of success with 8 Skelebots vs 1 Glitterboy.

The argument that, "This would only work if the Glitterboy is alone and thus the Skelebots wouldn't do it." Is moot, because if they don't try it they will all be destroyed. The second a Glitterboy is in the mix 8 Skelebots will lose. They have 2 options, neutralize the Glitterboy or attempt to flee. If the Glitterboy has allies, the Skelebots will lose, if they don't charge him to neutralize the Boom Gun then the Skelebots will lose. In such a non-winnable situation the AI would most definitely choose to attempt to close to melee and take down the Glitterboy.

Each Skelebot is worth 3 million credits.
Each Glitterboy is worth 25 million credits.

Skelebots can be mass produced, and in that they are also trained. Glitterboys may be able to be mass produced (only by a few places) but the pilots take time to train... Thus... If we assume that the CS would lose 4-5 units each time they attempted such a takedown the CS loses approximately 12 to 15 million credits while the force supplying the Glitterboy loses 25 million credits, plus a trained pilot.

The OP's tactics here make perfect sense.

[Killer Cyborg]

Called shots take two attacks. So the skeletons would see their ROF drop by half.
By 2/3, if they want to Aim.

And I think you can't do called shots with bursts these days.

[guardiandashi]

I look at the situation a little differently... Assuming that it is 8 Skelebots vs (what they perceive as) a lone Glitterboy would it make sense to attempt ranged combat?

The weakest, and most dangerous, point on the Glitterboy is the Boom Gun. Thus it would be very important to destroy that weapon first. In fact, without destroying that weapon, there is almost no chance of defeating the Glitterboy.

Assuming the Glitterboy has 8 attacks per melee, and the Skelebots have 5, we can extrapolate that, using averages that each successful Skelebot hit will do 12 MD, (6 in the first round) and each successful Glitterboy hit will do around 70... We know, in a ranged fight like this, using the 1-4 rule on misses that the Glitterboy and the Skelebots will hit each other approximately 80% of the time at range.

So the way I see this is, each Skelebot gets (effectively) 2 attacks per melee and one movement action. In this case, though, I look at it simply as such...

(Assuming the Glitterboy has initiative on every round)

Glitterboy fires, damaging, but not destroying, one Skelebot.

Skelebots 1-8 fire, aiming at the boom gun, the Boom gun takes approximately 48 damage total.

The Glitterboy fires, destroying the first Skelebot. (7 Skelebots remain.)

Skelebots 1-7 fire, aiming at the boom gun, statistically 2 of these should miss, the Boom gun takes approximately 36 damage. Bringing the Boom Gun damage to 84.

The Glitterboy fires, damaging another Skelebot.

The Skelebots, at this time, use their remaining actions to dodge and/or seek cover. This, statistically, would help only once against the Glitterboy's remaining 5 attacks. Meaning that at the end of round 1 the previously damaged Skelebot is destroyed, and another one is destroyed, and one is damaged. Meaning that 5 Skelebots remain.

Round 2:
The Glitterboy pilot shoots, and destroys the previously damaged Skelebot, 4 Skelebots remain.

All 4 Skelebots fire, aiming at the Boom Gun, the boom gun takes 48 damage, bringing the total damage to the Boom Gun to 132.

The Glitterboy fires, another Skelebot is damaged.

The next 4 Skelebots fire, aiming at the Boom Gun, 1 of these will statistically miss, the boom gun takes an additional 36 damage. Bringing the total damage to the Boom Gun to 168... It is likely the Boom Gun, at this point could be destroyed if the damage variance was high, if it is NOT... Then the Glitterboy will likely win the encounter.

The Glitterboy has 6 attacks remaining. Assuming one attack misses, in keeping with the standard variance, 5 successful hits will result in 3 more dead Skelebots... Leaving 1 remaining...

The Glitterboy fires first, this damages the Skelebot...

The Skelebot aims for the Boom Gun, the Skelebot hits, the boom gun is destroyed, the Glitterboy employs a simultaneous shot, the last Skelebot is simultaneously destroyed.

Statistically speaking, giving the Skelebots average damage variance, and average strike percentages, the idea that the Skelebots would attempt, 8 on 1, to take a Glitterboy in ranged combat is a bad combat decision. Thus I have to go with the original poster, his battle strategy has a higher percentage chance of success with 8 Skelebots vs 1 Glitterboy.

The argument that, "This would only work if the Glitterboy is alone and thus the Skelebots wouldn't do it." Is moot, because if they don't try it they will all be destroyed. The second a Glitterboy is in the mix 8 Skelebots will lose. They have 2 options, neutralize the Glitterboy or attempt to flee. If the Glitterboy has allies, the Skelebots will lose, if they don't charge him to neutralize the Boom Gun then the Skelebots will lose. In such a non-winnable situation the AI would most definitely choose to attempt to close to melee and take down the Glitterboy.

Each Skelebot is worth 3 million credits.
Each Glitterboy is worth 25 million credits.

Skelebots can be mass produced, and in that they are also trained. Glitterboys may be able to be mass produced (only by a few places) but the pilots take time to train... Thus... If we assume that the CS would lose 4-5 units each time they attempted such a takedown the CS loses approximately 12 to 15 million credits while the force supplying the Glitterboy loses 25 million credits, plus a trained pilot.

The OP's tactics here make perfect sense.

nitpick glitterboy attacks do NOT average around 70 damage that's only 2 2's and 1 3 on 3d6. the rule of thumb is a proper d6 averages ~3.5 the average of 2d6 is 7, and 3d6 would be 10.5 I realize 10.5 is not actually possible it would be 10, or 11 as the most common results.
which means each shot that connects has a better than 50% chance of one shotting an "old style" skelibot with 100mdc main body and pretty much any other hit will finish it off

so a more realistic result is giving a slight bonus to the glitterboy..

1st shot the glitterboy destroys the skelibot
the skelibots fire back
the glitterboy fires back and may or may not destroy the skelibot but if not pretty much any other hit will
it actually takes a damage varience on the low side to get the gb to NOT oneshot the old skelibots

[ShadowLogan]

I look at the situation a little differently... Assuming that it is 8 Skelebots vs (what they perceive as) a lone Glitterboy would it make sense to attempt ranged combat?

The weakest, and most dangerous, point on the Glitterboy is the Boom Gun. Thus it would be very important to destroy that weapon first. In fact, without destroying that weapon, there is almost no chance of defeating the Glitterboy.

Assuming the Glitterboy has 8 attacks per melee, and the Skelebots have 5, we can extrapolate that, using averages that each successful Skelebot hit will do 12 MD, (6 in the first round) and each successful Glitterboy hit will do around 70... We know, in a ranged fight like this, using the 1-4 rule on misses that the Glitterboy and the Skelebots will hit each other approximately 80% of the time at range.
...

There are a few problems here.

One: Averages as someone stated.

Two: Called Shots consume more actions (it looks like you accounted for this though taking the Skelebots 5 attacks down to 2 plus 1extra effectively), plus may have a higher to-hit requirement depending on the main book you are using (I know pre-RUE have called shots as requiring a 12 or better, not sure if it was carried over to RUE). If that rule set has the higher-hit-requirement a percentage of the hits will damage the main body and not the boomgun.

Three: Which set of rules are you using. Rifts Main Book (RMB) or Rifts Ultimate Edition (RUE)? RUE (pg361) has revised ranged combat to requiring 1-7 as a miss, with 1-4 still used for melee. RMB had them both at 1-4 AFAIK.

[Alrik Vas]

Yeah, 2 actions for called shots, you cannot burst with a called shot. 8 to hit with ranged attacks, 12 for called shots of all types (unless stated more difficult by the target's stats, which the G-10's doesn't differentiate for the rail gun).

So if no one dodges and it's just shoot-shoot-shoot all the time, the skelebots making called shots, the GB just shooting for the main body...I'ma hafta say the skelebots are completely hosed dealing non pulse damage to the rail gun while the GB practically 1-shots them all.

Seriously, give a few of the skelebots light anti-armor weapons but give the GB an area effect tool like a WIGL or something. Then we've got a real fight.

[guardiandashi]

Yeah, 2 actions for called shots, you cannot burst with a called shot. 8 to hit with ranged attacks, 12 for called shots of all types (unless stated more difficult by the target's stats, which the G-10's doesn't differentiate for the rail gun).

So if no one dodges and it's just shoot-shoot-shoot all the time, the skelebots making called shots, the GB just shooting for the main body...I'ma hafta say the skelebots are completely hosed dealing non pulse damage to the rail gun while the GB practically 1-shots them all.

Seriously, give a few of the skelebots light anti-armor weapons but give the GB an area effect tool like a WIGL or something. Then we've got a real fight.

I was thinking about "odds"
to try to figure out how many possibilities it would be that a glitterboys boom gun would NOT do 100+ mdc per hit
first of all there are 216 combinations possible on 3d6
111 = 30 1
112 121 211 = 40 = 3
122 = 50 = 3
113 = 50 = 3
222 = 60 = 1
123 = 60 = 3
114 = 60 = 3
115 = 70 = 3
124 = 70 = 3
133 = 70 = 3
223 = 70 = 3
116 = 80 = 3
125 = 80 = 3
134 = 80 = 3
224 = 80 = 3
233 = 80 = 3
126 = 90 = 3
135 = 90 = 3
144 = 90 = 3
234 = 90 = 3
333 = 90 = 1
If I did my math right there are only 57 combinations (out of 216) that come up under 10
IE a 26.388% (the 8's repeat) that any hit is not a one shot kill on base damage

then you have to account for the crit chance that basically says that any 5 or more base damage becomes an one hit kill also ie. if its 18,19, or 20 on the d20 roll, there are only 4 possibilities that aren't an immediate kill by being 100 or more damage
if the gb gets crits on 18-20 they have a 15% chance of any hit being a crit
based on the possibilities only ~1.85% of the critical hits are NOT going to be one hit kills.
ie 14.7225% of the hits are going to be auto kills from the crits alone

73.61% of the hits are going to be non crit one hit kills
14.7225% of the hits are going to be crit one hit kills
summary:
if my math is correct, ~88.3336% of all glitterboy hits are going to result in 100 or more damage being done with each hit.

[HWalsh]

I reduced the Skelebots down to only 2 actions to take into account the loss from called shots.

Then I did everything possible to give the Skelebots every advantage I could.

The point was, I was addressing the claim that the Skelebots would try the fight from range.

Giving the Skels every advantage still makes fighting the GB at range tactically a bad idea.

[Alrik Vas]

Armor piercing rocket launchers is an advantage you could give them.

[Mack]

I was thinking about "odds"
to try to figure out how many possibilities it would be that a glitterboys boom gun would NOT do 100+ mdc per hit
first of all there are 216 combinations possible on 3d6
111 = 30 1
112 121 211 = 40 = 3
122 = 50 = 3
113 = 50 = 3
222 = 60 = 1
123 = 60 = 3
114 = 60 = 3
115 = 70 = 3
124 = 70 = 3
133 = 70 = 3
223 = 70 = 3
116 = 80 = 3
125 = 80 = 3
134 = 80 = 3
224 = 80 = 3
233 = 80 = 3
126 = 90 = 3
135 = 90 = 3
144 = 90 = 3
234 = 90 = 3
333 = 90 = 1
If I did my math right there are only 57 combinations (out of 216) that come up under 10

You've come up short. There are 81 out of 216 (37.5%) combinations that will come up under 10.

IE a 26.388% (the 8's repeat) that any hit is not a one shot kill on base damage

Not so fast on the one-shot kill. That's true only if one uses the original, pre-CWC Skelebots. As of CWC and later, all Skelebots (including the FASSAR-20s) were upgraded to 150 MDC each.

then you have to account for the crit chance that basically says that any 5 or more base damage becomes an one hit kill also ie. if its 18,19, or 20 on the d20 roll, there are only 4 possibilities that aren't an immediate kill by being 100 or more damage
if the gb gets crits on 18-20 they have a 15% chance of any hit being a crit
based on the possibilities only ~1.85% of the critical hits are NOT going to be one hit kills.
ie 14.7225% of the hits are going to be auto kills from the crits alone

73.61% of the hits are going to be non crit one hit kills
14.7225% of the hits are going to be crit one hit kills
summary:
if my math is correct, ~88.3336% of all glitterboy hits are going to result in 100 or more damage being done with each hit.

If we're going to include criticals, then we also have to include misses. For simplicity, let's go with a straight D20 (no bonuses, no penalties*). Ranged combat rules have a miss for 1-7, and hits on 8+. And it looks like you're using the Armor Penetrating rule, so we'll go with x2 damage on 18 & 19, with x3 damage on a Nat20. Finally, we're going to roll both 3D6 and 1D20, so there's 4320 possible outcomes.

Overall he's going to hit 2808 times out of 4320 attempts (65% of the time).
Of those 2808 hits, 1989 will result in a 100 MD or more (70.83% of the hits, or 46.05% of the attempts). But that's only for pre-CWC Skelebots.
For post-CWC Skelebots, of those 2808 hits, 774 will result in 150 MD or more (27.56% of the hits, or 17.92% of the attempts).

Throw all that together and we get an average damage of 89.25 MD (includes misses and criticals). Of just the hits, we get an average damage of 137.31MD**.

* Yes, I recognize that adding the GB pilot's strike bonus will swing the numbers into his favor. But to be fair, then we'd have to add in penalties for the Skelebots movements/dodge which is more than I care to deal with at the moment.
** The Armor Penetrating rule drives the average hit to be significantly higher than the normal 105 average of 3D6x10.

[HWalsh]

I will admit I was using the old 1-4 miss instead of 1-7... But yeah I was going on the Skelebots having 130 MDC main body from RUE.

According to statistical averages these are the most likely outcome for rolling 3d6:

3,0.462962962963
4,1.38888888889
5,2.77777777778
6,4.62962962963
7,6.94444444444
8,9.72222222222
9,11.5740740741
10,12.5
11,12.5
12,11.5740740741
13,9.72222222222
14,6.94444444444
15,4.62962962963
16,2.77777777778
17,1.38888888889
18,0.462962962963

Meaning that you have a 46% chance of the damage being 9, 10, 11, or 12
You have around a 74% chance not to kill a "Old Style" RUE Skelebot (130 MDC) in a single shot.

I was not accounting for critical hits and yeah, I was allowing called shot bursts for the Skelebots, for the reasons previously stated, namely showing why the Skelebots wouldn't try to "seek cover and fight from range", because it simply, wouldn't work. Thus, again, the OP's plan of rushing the Glitterboy to engage it in Melee combat is the hands down *best* combat option for Skelebots to deal with a Glitterboy unless they have a vast numbers advantage or non-standard weaponry.

Note:
I also based this partially "in character" for tactics, namely the fact that we know the books constantly state that machines will do X, Y, or Z in combat when we know they can't do X, Y, or Z by the rules. For example the Glitterboy Killer using mini-missiles on the Boom Gun, which by the rules, we know they can't actually do.

[Alrik Vas]

I liked it better when mini's weren't guided and could be used fire called shots.

[Mack]

But yeah I was going on the Skelebots having 130 MDC main body from RUE.

Not sure where you would've seen a value of 130 MDC. The original value was 100 MDC, which was upped to 150 MDC in CWC. I just checked my books, and I can't find 130 anywhere.

[HWalsh]

But yeah I was going on the Skelebots having 130 MDC main body from RUE.

Not sure where you would've seen a value of 130 MDC. The original value was 100 MDC, which was upped to 150 MDC in CWC. I just checked my books, and I can't find 130 anywhere.

Rifts Ultimate Edition Page 255

Under the entry: Skelebot Stats
Sub-entry: M.D.C. by Location:
Final entry: **Main Body - 130

[guardiandashi]

But yeah I was going on the Skelebots having 130 MDC main body from RUE.

Not sure where you would've seen a value of 130 MDC. The original value was 100 MDC, which was upped to 150 MDC in CWC. I just checked my books, and I can't find 130 anywhere.

Rifts Ultimate Edition Page 255

Under the entry: Skelebot Stats
Sub-entry: M.D.C. by Location:
Final entry: **Main Body - 130

actually rifts sourcebook 1 also has the skelibots at 130 mdc main body

I liked it better when mini's weren't guided and could be used fire called shots.

actually I was just rereading rifts Ultimate 1st edition, and on pg 363 under mini-missiles it explicitly says they are NOT guided, so require a strike roll by the person firing them.

Technically all the guided missiles, short, medium, and long range are self guided, and the MISSILE's are what is making the strike attempt/s

[HWalsh]

But yeah I was going on the Skelebots having 130 MDC main body from RUE.

Not sure where you would've seen a value of 130 MDC. The original value was 100 MDC, which was upped to 150 MDC in CWC. I just checked my books, and I can't find 130 anywhere.

Rifts Ultimate Edition Page 255

Under the entry: Skelebot Stats
Sub-entry: M.D.C. by Location:
Final entry: **Main Body - 130

actually rifts sourcebook 1 also has the skelibots at 130 mdc main body

I liked it better when mini's weren't guided and could be used fire called shots.

actually I was just rereading rifts Ultimate 1st edition, and on pg 363 under mini-missiles it explicitly says they are NOT guided, so require a strike roll by the person firing them.

Technically all the guided missiles, short, medium, and long range are self guided, and the MISSILE's are what is making the strike attempt/s

Did they change back the mini-missile rule?!? *runs to go look*

Doh!

Nope... It still says on RUE page 362 that "All missiles always strike the main body."

[Mack]

But yeah I was going on the Skelebots having 130 MDC main body from RUE.

Not sure where you would've seen a value of 130 MDC. The original value was 100 MDC, which was upped to 150 MDC in CWC. I just checked my books, and I can't find 130 anywhere.

Rifts Ultimate Edition Page 255

Under the entry: Skelebot Stats
Sub-entry: M.D.C. by Location:
Final entry: **Main Body - 130

Hmph... I just double-checked mine, which is a Aug 2005 First Printing, and it has 100 MDC.

Aha! I checked my original Sourcebook 1 (and by original, I mean 1991 printing) and it has the 130 MDC value. Looks like the first printing of RUE had a typo of 100 MDC that was subsequently fixed.

So I stand corrected about the 100 MDC value. Thanks for helping me find it.
(Of course, that means about half the math in this topic is based on the wrong value...)

[HWalsh]

But yeah I was going on the Skelebots having 130 MDC main body from RUE.

Not sure where you would've seen a value of 130 MDC. The original value was 100 MDC, which was upped to 150 MDC in CWC. I just checked my books, and I can't find 130 anywhere.

Rifts Ultimate Edition Page 255

Under the entry: Skelebot Stats
Sub-entry: M.D.C. by Location:
Final entry: **Main Body - 130

Hmph... I just double-checked mine, which is a Aug 2005 First Printing, and it has 100 MDC.

Aha! I checked my original Sourcebook 1 (and by original, I mean 1991 printing) and it has the 130 MDC value. Looks like the first printing of RUE had a typo of 100 MDC that was subsequently fixed.

So I stand corrected about the 100 MDC value. Thanks for helping me find it.
(Of course, that means about half the math in this topic is based on the wrong value...)

No worries! One thing I have known about Rifts is that the rules are a bit "fluid" and values have a tendency to change.

I'm still trying to figure out if Cyber-Knights can block energy blasts with swords (it seems they can) but I have been quoted 2 completely different sets of rules on the topic so I know not which one is correct.

[Dog_O_War]

I liked it better when mini's weren't guided and could be used fire called shots.

They aren't guided still; you just can't use them to make called shots because they're missiles.

It's ammunition-racism, but thems' the breaks.

[Zer0 Kay]

I liked it better when mini's weren't guided and could be used fire called shots.

They aren't guided still; you just can't use them to make called shots because they're missiles.

It's ammunition-racism, but thems' the breaks.

It's so stupid. They changed them from the original laser guided found in Invid Invasion which should be called shot because they go where the laser is pointed.