tattooes

[Glistam]

What supernatural beings do tattoos "obviously" work on? Humans, Ogres, Elves (limited), True Atlanteans and Chiang-ku are the only beings they work on to my knowledge. A Demigod is not one of those creatures and therefore magical tattoos are just a nice-looking tattoo with no magical powers for them.

[Alrik Vas]

Elves have limited or bizarre uses of tattoos, what are those? Maybe a half-human demi-god could use them under the same constraints? Homebrew, sure, but what do I think of it?

Meh, if it's the PC's concept and the character fits the group, have a ball. If it's too buff for the game's intent, then no.

[Slight001]

I wanted to play a demigod tattooed guy. I am aware that in splynn it says that supernatural beings cannot get tattooes. However being half human and the fact that tattoos obviously work on supernatural beings, I wanted to ask what yall thought

Officially you can't... translation... ask the GM.

If this were me I'd make you use the 'divine' power (or what ever it's called) that demigods get as the tattoo's reason for working. So this means that your gift from your 'divine' parent is the ability to gain and use magic tattoos. I'd also have you use the T-Man's starting option for Magic Tattoos. As these are 'divine' in origin I'd also allow for the magic tattoo's to be bestowed upon the PC in a manor not unlike how a mystic gains new spells, which means you won't need to find a magic tattoo parlor. However, the penalties for the new tats do apply. I'd also limit you're selection of O.C.C.'s to not include psionic or magical ones. Oh and you're mother is now Hekate and you are just one of her latest experiments.

[Alrik Vas]

That's something worth mentioning. I'd limit the character's OCC to one of the tattooed men classes, yeah. I'd also say no other type of magic, as per the tattoed class limitations. You could have a lot of MDC and PPE, be a super T-man, but not much of a demi-god.

[Tor]

What supernatural beings do tattoos "obviously" work on?

Chaing-Ku, Undead Slayers and Monster Hunters.

[Glistam]

Chiang-Ku are Creatures of Magic, not Supernatural. The Undead Slayers and Monster Hunters are True Atlanteans and are only considered to be supernatural beings. Is that a worthwhile distinction? I don't know, but it's there. Page 83 of World Book 2 and Page 107 of World Book 21 are pretty clear in who can and cannot get functioning magical tattoos.

Demi-gods should not be allowed to have functioning magic tattoos based on those guidelines. Each specific G.M. can rule differently if they so choose.

[Svartalf]

Demigods are not human or ogrles or any creature on the list of who can have tats, period.

[Thinyser]

Elves have limited or bizarre uses of tattoos, what are those? Maybe a half-human demi-god could use them under the same constraints? Homebrew, sure, but what do I think of it?

Meh, if it's the PC's concept and the character fits the group, have a ball. If it's too buff for the game's intent, then no.

Agreed. Is it 100% book legal? Nope, but what's that matter if it fits the game, the GM approves, and you have fun?

[runebeo]

Any rule can be broken for god-like creatures if GM ok with it, in our game a decade ago an angel had magic tattoos and it was our gm who made her, saying the angel was in human form was close enough to human to receive them at the time. When the subject came up again over this the gm said just say its a one of a kind Npc and move on.

[cosmicfish]

Related to this, I once had a character ask about the intersection of Magic Tattoos with becoming a Cosmo-Knight - if a human has magic tattoos, and is transformed by the Cosmic Forge, do they lose the tattoos, retain them intact, or retain them as inert decoration?

[ShadowLogan]

What supernatural beings do tattoos "obviously" work on?

Chaing-Ku, Undead Slayers and Monster Hunters.

Chaing-Ku may be the exception since they are responsible for the creation of magic tattoos in the first place.

Undead Slayers and Monster Hunters are OCCs that result of tattoos, so the SN aspect may not apply if the tatts are the reason for the SN status in the first place.

[ShadowLogan]

Related to this, I once had a character ask about the intersection of Magic Tattoos with becoming a Cosmo-Knight - if a human has magic tattoos, and is transformed by the Cosmic Forge, do they lose the tattoos, retain them intact, or retain them as inert decoration?

pg102 of DB2 "O.C.C. Skills When the character is transformed, the skills of his past life are lost and the character is reborn."

Use of Magic tattoos is a skill that is thought, so at minimum if they lose the knowledge to use them even if they still remain intact and functional.

I'd have to review tatt. magic in general, but humans with magic tattoos might be disqualified from Cosmo-Knight status if they are considered SN creatures by the Forge.

[cosmicfish]

pg102 of DB2 "O.C.C. Skills When the character is transformed, the skills of his past life are lost and the character is reborn."

Use of Magic tattoos is a skill that is thought, so at minimum if they lose the knowledge to use them even if they still remain intact and functional.

Why would tattoos be considered a skill? While it is something they need to learn to use, the tattoo itself is something that is physically added to the person by another, like a cybernetic arm or biowizard eyes. If it is only the skill that is lost then the new Cosmo-Knight should have no problem relearning how to use the tattoos that are still part of him (especially since it is such a small skill that it never requires any consideration as such).

[Tor]

There's no tattoo activation skill, so it shouldn't be that hard. I do like the idea of needing to be taught how to use them, a 'concentration' skill so to speak. That stuff is inherent to spell-casting OCCs but since tattoos can be forced on you, and it doesn't talk about inherent knowledge...

Chiang-Ku are Creatures of Magic, not Supernatural.

Dragons have been described as both supernatural and CoM so I consider them both.

The Undead Slayers and Monster Hunters are True Atlanteans and are only considered to be supernatural beings. Is that a worthwhile distinction?

You caused me to take a second glance, good catch, that word certainly is a potential out. I inherently thought it meant Siembieda considers them supernatural but it could just mean that mundane Earthlings consider them that since they're so uber.

In that case I find it odd that Monster-Men and Maxi-Men are not also 'considered' supernatural though, since they also are pretty strong guys.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I wanted to play a demigod tattooed guy. I am aware that in splynn it says that supernatural beings cannot get tattooes. However being half human and the fact that tattoos obviously work on supernatural beings, I wanted to ask what yall thought

A Demigod char if fully demigod as such is fully supernatural. There is no half this or that mortal whining to try to get your GM to bend the rules.

[Glistam]

There's no tattoo activation skill, so it shouldn't be that hard. I do like the idea of needing to be taught how to use them, a 'concentration' skill so to speak. That stuff is inherent to spell-casting OCCs but since tattoos can be forced on you, and it doesn't talk about inherent knowledge...

There sort of is... only full Tattooed Men (and women) pay normal price to activate tattoos. Anyone else who gets them has to pay double the P.P.E. to activate and use it.

It costs double the P.P.E. to activate a tattoo for those who are not full Tattooed Men. A T-Man will have a dozen or more 'toos. However, wizards, cyber-knights, and virtually any human, ogre or elf can receive and use magic tattoos. However, these novice tattoo users are NOT limited to the use of tattoos alone and pay the penalty of needing to expend twice the usual amount of P.P.E. in order to activate them.

[cosmicfish]

There sort of is... only full Tattooed Men (and women) pay normal price to activate tattoos. Anyone else who gets them has to pay double the P.P.E. to activate and use it.

But again, to the extent that it is a skill, it is a minor one, as even those who are completely untrained can still use them at double the PPE (and since it is NEVER trainable for those people, it may not really be a skill but rather an inevitable consequence of having a certain number of tattoos). Whether a person retained that "regular price activation" or not, would the tattoos themselves still function?

And I am just asking opinions about "should", not "can", as the latter is always a matter of GM fiat. Part of this actually goes back to an idea I had (but abandoned) of having one or more characters become Cosmo-Knights during a campaign, where the details of what would and would not be retained would be quite important.

[Tor]

Even with doubled cost, if the Splugorth kidnapped me, I don't think I'd know what to do with those things. When you get a tatt, do you start getting dreams about what it does, unconciously start reaching your hand toward it, drawing your will from deep down in focus at it, etc?

[Thinyser]

Even with doubled cost, if the Splugorth kidnapped me, I don't think I'd know what to do with those things. When you get a tatt, do you start getting dreams about what it does, unconciously start reaching your hand toward it, drawing your will from deep down in focus at it, etc?

Probably something like that, or the magic of receiving it imparts the knowledge of how to activate it.

[cosmicfish]

Even with doubled cost, if the Splugorth kidnapped me, I don't think I'd know what to do with those things. When you get a tatt, do you start getting dreams about what it does, unconciously start reaching your hand toward it, drawing your will from deep down in focus at it, etc?

There are a lot of things you could ask this about. If you get a cybernetic implant but no training, could you eventually figure out how to make the shooty thing shoot? A bunch of kids in Africa figured out how to use computers without any directions at all. Nothing about magic tattoos make them sound anywhere as near as complicated as that.

[ShadowLogan]

Why would tattoos be considered a skill? While it is something they need to learn to use, the tattoo itself is something that is physically added to the person by another, like a cybernetic arm or biowizard eyes. If it is only the skill that is lost then the new Cosmo-Knight should have no problem relearning how to use the tattoos that are still part of him (especially since it is such a small skill that it never requires any consideration as such).

Not all skills use slots though. You still have to be taught how to use the tattoos. That much is clear, and it doesn't appear to be a self-discovery thing either. It is also clear everything the character knew before is gone. So at minimum you would have to find someone to teach you again, and they have to be able to recognize that those are magic tatts, and that the tatts still work after the transformation by the Comsic Forge (this last bit is the most iffy).

[Nightmask]

Why would tattoos be considered a skill? While it is something they need to learn to use, the tattoo itself is something that is physically added to the person by another, like a cybernetic arm or biowizard eyes. If it is only the skill that is lost then the new Cosmo-Knight should have no problem relearning how to use the tattoos that are still part of him (especially since it is such a small skill that it never requires any consideration as such).

Not all skills use slots though. You still have to be taught how to use the tattoos. That much is clear, and it doesn't appear to be a self-discovery thing either. It is also clear everything the character knew before is gone. So at minimum you would have to find someone to teach you again, and they have to be able to recognize that those are magic tatts, and that the tatts still work after the transformation by the Comsic Forge (this last bit is the most iffy).

Well clearly everything the character knew before isn't gone because if it were then you've got someone who basically agreed to be killed and replaced by something that looked like him but had nothing of the person whose qualities the Forge sought after in the first place. The only question is whether or not the magic item in question remains useable after the transformation into a Cosmo-Knight. If it remains useable then they should have no problems using it, if it doesn't then it's a moot point anyway as it's left as just a decoration and nothing else.

[cosmicfish]

I got interrupted in writing this, and subsequently got ninja's, but here it is anyway:

You still have to be taught how to use the tattoos. That much is clear, and it doesn't appear to be a self-discovery thing either.

To activate you have to touch the tattoo and concentrate on it - this doesn't sound like the kind of thing that cannot be self-taught. When I read that T-men are "trained to use the tattoos" I always interpreted it as "learn how to efficiently use them in combat" not "learn to turn them on".

It is also clear everything the character knew before is gone.

How does that make sense? They lose all their OCC skills so that they can have a common skill set without being over-skilled compared to other characters, they don't lose (for example) their self-identity or the knowledge of clothing themselves. If they lose everything then becoming a Cosmo-knight is really a form of suicide! The old you completely ceases to exist, to be replaced by a spirit of the Cosmic Forge that takes over and inhabits your body!

So at minimum you would have to find someone to teach you again, and they have to be able to recognize that those are magic tatts, and that the tatts still work after the transformation by the Comsic Forge (this last bit is the most iffy).

In the Three Galaxies it would be unlikely for a Cosmo-knight to go a tremendous amount of time before running into someone who was familiar with magic tattoos. It even mentions in the description that they often work with Undead Slayers, who would presumably be both able to recognize the tattoos and instruct in their use.

The real question (to me) remains whether or not tattoos and other pre-knight modifications survive in usable form to the Cosmo-Knight. For example, if a human gained bio-wizard wings from the Splugorth and was then tapped by the Forge, would they lose the wings or retain them? What characteristics of the modification determine whether or not it survives?

[eliakon]

I would say that since Cosmo-Knight is listed as an RCC, and it apparently remakes you into a new, supernatural being. That you are no longer a Human/Elf/Ogre but now a Cosmo-Knight. Which means that you are no-longer on the approved list, and that your tattoos will stop working. YMMV.

[Thinyser]

I would say that since Cosmo-Knight is listed as an RCC, and it apparently remakes you into a new, supernatural being. That you are no longer a Human/Elf/Ogre but now a Cosmo-Knight. Which means that you are no-longer on the approved list, and that your tattoos will stop working. YMMV.

I tend to agree.

[Svartalf]

OTOH a Tattooed man becoming a CK, and then falling might recover use of his tats instead of getting magical or psi powers...

[ShadowLogan]

Well clearly everything the character knew before isn't gone because if it were then you've got someone who basically agreed to be killed and replaced by something that looked like him but had nothing of the person whose qualities the Forge sought after in the first place. The only question is whether or not the magic item in question remains useable after the transformation into a Cosmo-Knight. If it remains useable then they should have no problems using it, if it doesn't then it's a moot point anyway as it's left as just a decoration and nothing else.

& @cosmicfish

I should be more clear: In terms of Skills it is quite clear, everything is lost from the previous life as on pg102 of DB2 "O.C.C. Skills When the character is transformed, the skills of his past life are lost and the character is reborn." So regardless if the transformed character retains working magic tattoos he/she lacks the necessary skill and training to use them.

I do agree the question of weather the Tatts remain magic after the transformation is the question, but the ability to use them also has to be considered. If they can't use them, it doesn't really matter if the tatts are active or not.

To activate you have to touch the tattoo and concentrate on it - this doesn't sound like the kind of thing that cannot be self-taught. When I read that T-men are "trained to use the tattoos" I always interpreted it as "learn how to efficiently use them in combat" not "learn to turn them on".

I do read that to include turning them on. The concentration bit results in the expenditure of PPE, which is something they do have to be taught. If the Fallen CmK is any indication, their ability to learn magic and expend PPE outside of their abilities, is limited to what a Ley Line Walker (or Witch) can learn.

The real question (to me) remains whether or not tattoos and other pre-knight modifications survive in usable form to the Cosmo-Knight. For example, if a human gained bio-wizard wings from the Splugorth and was then tapped by the Forge, would they lose the wings or retain them? What characteristics of the modification determine whether or not it survives?

The magic of the Forge likely does destroy the magic of the tattoos because:
-DB2 pg100: you also roll for new attributes OR the original race, whichever is HIGHER. In this case every attribute is technically higher than base line human attributes (which are 3d6, if you don't could bonus rolls), Ogre, Elves, and the Chaing-Ku I don't recall off hand, but I suspect some attributes would be altered.
-DB2 pg99 "...Their bodies are pure batteries of cosmic energy..." (2nd paragraph, first column)
-DB2 pg99 "retain their previous appearance and can even pass as normal members of their race... However, they no longer have the weakness of normal mortals. They are supernatural beings" (2nd paragraph second column)
-DB2 pg99 "Their bodies and souls are seared and reshaped by comic forces. When they emerge, they are transformed by their experience."

Pg99 makes it clear that they aren't physical beings, they can certainly appear as normal beings, but they are are not. Any augmentation it seems (be it bio-wizard, cyber/bionic, or magical tattoo) if they remain are/would be only illusions.

I would say that since Cosmo-Knight is listed as an RCC

Unless it changed between printings, it is listed as an O.C.C.in my copy of DB2 (4th Printing) and not an R.C.C. Though I do agree that the CmK is essentially a new race.

[cosmicfish]

I still disagree categorically that the transformation into a Cosmo-knight fully wipes someone's memory clean - I would expect it to be at worst like transformation into a stage 2 Promethean, and probably less. If it is any more than that, it is just suicide and it doesn't make sense to me that it would work out well for either party!

Still, while I think that the descriptions cited are meant more as color-text than literal descriptions ("batteries of cosmic energy?") I do agree that the transformation is probably more than enough to disrupt the function of the tattoos or even destroy them outright.

[Nightmask]

Well clearly everything the character knew before isn't gone because if it were then you've got someone who basically agreed to be killed and replaced by something that looked like him but had nothing of the person whose qualities the Forge sought after in the first place. The only question is whether or not the magic item in question remains useable after the transformation into a Cosmo-Knight. If it remains useable then they should have no problems using it, if it doesn't then it's a moot point anyway as it's left as just a decoration and nothing else.

& @cosmicfish

I should be more clear: In terms of Skills it is quite clear, everything is lost from the previous life as on pg102 of DB2 "O.C.C. Skills When the character is transformed, the skills of his past life are lost and the character is reborn." So regardless if the transformed character retains working magic tattoos he/she lacks the necessary skill and training to use them.

I do agree the question of weather the Tatts remain magic after the transformation is the question, but the ability to use them also has to be considered. If they can't use them, it doesn't really matter if the tatts are active or not.

Except there is no 'Use Magic Tattoo' skill, nor has there ever been any indication that you require anything more than as someone else noted to simply touch it and concentrate on activating it. It'd be like claiming someone couldn't pick up a stick and bash someone with it because they didn't have a 'bash someone with stick' skill.

While the 'wipes away learned skills' feature of becoming a cosmo-knight is a bit ridiculous (since how do you really do that without wiping away parts of someone's memory when it's that person as they are now that you wanted in the first place) nothing about magic tattoos carries any kind of indicator that they actually require Skills! (as opposed to skills) to be able to use. The only real issue is would they still be functional after becoming a cosmo-knight not that somehow they could remain functional but he not be able to remember how to turn them on.

[Nightmask]

I still disagree categorically that the transformation into a Cosmo-knight fully wipes someone's memory clean - I would expect it to be at worst like transformation into a stage 2 Promethean, and probably less. If it is any more than that, it is just suicide and it doesn't make sense to me that it would work out well for either party!

Still, while I think that the descriptions cited are meant more as color-text than literal descriptions ("batteries of cosmic energy?") I do agree that the transformation is probably more than enough to disrupt the function of the tattoos or even destroy them outright.

Considering the Forge picks the person in the first place based on who they are and the qualities they possess because it values those qualities it would certainly be more than a bit ridiculous that it would then wipe clean the mind of the person destroying the very qualities it sought in the first place. It'd be like going out and getting a computer because it has the software you want on it then wiping the hard drive after you've got it deleting what you wanted it for in the first place.

[Thinyser]

I still disagree categorically that the transformation into a Cosmo-knight fully wipes someone's memory clean - I would expect it to be at worst like transformation into a stage 2 Promethean, and probably less. If it is any more than that, it is just suicide and it doesn't make sense to me that it would work out well for either party!

Still, while I think that the descriptions cited are meant more as color-text than literal descriptions ("batteries of cosmic energy?") I do agree that the transformation is probably more than enough to disrupt the function of the tattoos or even destroy them outright.

Considering the Forge picks the person in the first place based on who they are and the qualities they possess because it values those qualities it would certainly be more than a bit ridiculous that it would then wipe clean the mind of the person destroying the very qualities it sought in the first place. It'd be like going out and getting a computer because it has the software you want on it then wiping the hard drive after you've got it deleting what you wanted it for in the first place.

Very good analogy.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

As a house rule, i'd be willing to let you pick your "Power" from being a Demigod as "Tatoo Magic". There are a couple of gods that it would make sense (particularly native types) - i'd handle it as someone else already described - game mechanically, yes, they are magic tattoos, that function just like the T-man (and are gained at the same rate), but metaphysically/in-setting, they are a natural manifestation of your demigodhood. They would just appear on you as you advanced, or, as you had new tatoos done, they would just magically turn into magic tatoos because of your nature.

I would similarly then limit you to a Man-At-Arms or Scholar OCC (no magic or psionics).

But as far as canon goes, no, you cant be a Demigod and then have Tatoo Magic put on you.

[ShadowLogan]

Still, while I think that the descriptions cited are meant more as color-text than literal descriptions ("batteries of cosmic energy?") I do agree that the transformation is probably more than enough to disrupt the function of the tattoos or even destroy them outright.

Unfortunately the flavor text is all we have to go on, plus the one or two bits in the crunch writeup area. They all agree though that you are no longer what ever you where before. You can give the illusion of appearing as you did before, but you really aren't.

Except there is no 'Use Magic Tattoo' skill, nor has there ever been any indication that you require anything more than as someone else noted to simply touch it and concentrate on activating it. It'd be like claiming someone couldn't pick up a stick and bash someone with it because they didn't have a 'bash someone with stick' skill.

"To activate any of the tattoos, the Tattooed Man touches the desired mage and concentrates, focusing his P.P.E. to bring the item to life."-WB2 pg84. The concentration part is noted, but the user must also focus his P.P.E.

WB2 pg93 "...,trained in the use of the tattoos,...".

There also aren't skills like "suit up in armor", "cast magic spell", or "tie your shoe", but they are all examples of things that you have to be trained to do. So a lack of a "Uses Magic Tatto" doesn't prove anything. All it means is that people with the tattoos are assumed to have the necessary knowledge to activate the tattoos. Since a CmK losses all their skills knowledge from their previous life, they can't use tattoos even if the tattoos remain magical (which is doubtful).

While the character may lose all their previous skills, they can get some of them back by the selection of Other & Secondary Skills. They aren't going to be as proficient possibly depending on the level of the transformed character. However, since the selectable skills don't allow one to learn to use magic tattoos, the CmK can not re-learn the skill that way.

While the 'wipes away learned skills' feature of becoming a cosmo-knight is a bit ridiculous (since how do you really do that without wiping away parts of someone's memory when it's that person as they are now that you wanted in the first place) nothing about magic tattoos carries any kind of indicator that they actually require Skills! (as opposed to skills) to be able to use. The only real issue is would they still be functional after becoming a cosmo-knight not that somehow they could remain functional but he not be able to remember how to turn them on.

Actually it isn't ridiculous. How do we know the length of the transformation from the perspective of the Forge/CmK-transformation isn't longer than to an outside observer. The ability to use a skill can atrophy after all (similar effect can be seen in the Bionics SB concerning retired CityRats) from lack of use and time. Nothing says you lost the memories of knowing you used to be able to do X, but you can't remember how to do X any more.

[Thinyser]

Still, while I think that the descriptions cited are meant more as color-text than literal descriptions ("batteries of cosmic energy?") I do agree that the transformation is probably more than enough to disrupt the function of the tattoos or even destroy them outright.

Unfortunately the flavor text is all we have to go on, plus the one or two bits in the crunch writeup area. They all agree though that you are no longer what ever you where before. You can give the illusion of appearing as you did before, but you really aren't.

Except there is no 'Use Magic Tattoo' skill, nor has there ever been any indication that you require anything more than as someone else noted to simply touch it and concentrate on activating it. It'd be like claiming someone couldn't pick up a stick and bash someone with it because they didn't have a 'bash someone with stick' skill.

"To activate any of the tattoos, the Tattooed Man touches the desired mage and concentrates, focusing his P.P.E. to bring the item to life."-WB2 pg84. The concentration part is noted, but the user must also focus his P.P.E.

WB2 pg93 "...,trained in the use of the tattoos,...".

There also aren't skills like "suit up in armor", "cast magic spell", or "tie your shoe", but they are all examples of things that you have to be trained to do. So a lack of a "Uses Magic Tatto" doesn't prove anything. All it means is that people with the tattoos are assumed to have the necessary knowledge to activate the tattoos. Since a CmK losses all their skills knowledge from their previous life, they can't use tattoos even if the tattoos remain magical (which is doubtful).

While the character may lose all their previous skills, they can get some of them back by the selection of Other & Secondary Skills. They aren't going to be as proficient possibly depending on the level of the transformed character. However, since the selectable skills don't allow one to learn to use magic tattoos, the CmK can not re-learn the skill that way.

While the 'wipes away learned skills' feature of becoming a cosmo-knight is a bit ridiculous (since how do you really do that without wiping away parts of someone's memory when it's that person as they are now that you wanted in the first place) nothing about magic tattoos carries any kind of indicator that they actually require Skills! (as opposed to skills) to be able to use. The only real issue is would they still be functional after becoming a cosmo-knight not that somehow they could remain functional but he not be able to remember how to turn them on.

Actually it isn't ridiculous. How do we know the length of the transformation from the perspective of the Forge/CmK-transformation isn't longer than to an outside observer. The ability to use a skill can atrophy after all (similar effect can be seen in the Bionics SB concerning retired CityRats) from lack of use and time. Nothing says you lost the memories of knowing you used to be able to do X, but you can't remember how to do X any more.

IMO you just killed your whole argument by bringing the "tie your shoes" in as a skill (that you imply) they would lose right along with "use a magic tattoo".

You don't become a vegetable unable to feed yourself or bathe or toilet yourself or walk or do ALL the things you do on a daily basis as a normal person before. As people have been stating its ridiculous to assume that "loss of all skills" means "you lose everything you ever learned" is truly what was implied. You would be nonfunctional and therefore useless to the forge.

[Nightmask]

Except there is no 'Use Magic Tattoo' skill, nor has there ever been any indication that you require anything more than as someone else noted to simply touch it and concentrate on activating it. It'd be like claiming someone couldn't pick up a stick and bash someone with it because they didn't have a 'bash someone with stick' skill.

"To activate any of the tattoos, the Tattooed Man touches the desired mage and concentrates, focusing his P.P.E. to bring the item to life."-WB2 pg84. The concentration part is noted, but the user must also focus his P.P.E.

WB2 pg93 "...,trained in the use of the tattoos,...".

There also aren't skills like "suit up in armor", "cast magic spell", or "tie your shoe", but they are all examples of things that you have to be trained to do. So a lack of a "Uses Magic Tatto" doesn't prove anything. All it means is that people with the tattoos are assumed to have the necessary knowledge to activate the tattoos. Since a CmK losses all their skills knowledge from their previous life, they can't use tattoos even if the tattoos remain magical (which is doubtful).

While the character may lose all their previous skills, they can get some of them back by the selection of Other & Secondary Skills. They aren't going to be as proficient possibly depending on the level of the transformed character. However, since the selectable skills don't allow one to learn to use magic tattoos, the CmK can not re-learn the skill that way.

You're really reaching there, and 'trained in the use' more plausibly means 'now we're going to instruct you in how to use these things in various situations' rather than 'gee it requires intensive training for you to just turn the things on'. Touch it and think 'On' is no more a skill I'd expect them to lose than I would 'hold in hand pull trigger' if they knew how to use a gun.

While the 'wipes away learned skills' feature of becoming a cosmo-knight is a bit ridiculous (since how do you really do that without wiping away parts of someone's memory when it's that person as they are now that you wanted in the first place) nothing about magic tattoos carries any kind of indicator that they actually require Skills! (as opposed to skills) to be able to use. The only real issue is would they still be functional after becoming a cosmo-knight not that somehow they could remain functional but he not be able to remember how to turn them on.

Actually it isn't ridiculous. How do we know the length of the transformation from the perspective of the Forge/CmK-transformation isn't longer than to an outside observer. The ability to use a skill can atrophy after all (similar effect can be seen in the Bionics SB concerning retired CityRats) from lack of use and time. Nothing says you lost the memories of knowing you used to be able to do X, but you can't remember how to do X any more.

No really it is ridiculous, particularly since you're left with the question of 'wait where'd he get those replacement skills then?' along with the question of 'well what if some of his skills are just him choosing to keep previous ones he had?'. It's really a bit of nerfing rather than leaving it up to a GM to deal with someone who'd want to have their character have a previous class that was very skill laden (like an Academy Officer from Ninjas and Superspies).

[ShadowLogan]

IMO you just killed your whole argument by bringing the "tie your shoes" in as a skill (that you imply) they would lose right along with "use a magic tattoo".

I agree it wasn't the best example of skills they have, but aren't listed/take up a slot. Its intended to show how absurd the idea that we need a skill for everything like "use magic tattoo" or "use magic spell/ritual" or "suit up in armor".

You're really reaching there, and 'trained in the use' more plausibly means 'now we're going to instruct you in how to use these things in various situations' rather than 'gee it requires intensive training for you to just turn the things on'. Touch it and think 'On' is no more a skill I'd expect them to lose than I would 'hold in hand pull trigger' if they knew how to use a gun.

It isn't simply touch it and think "on". You have to also channel the necessary P.P.E, which is something you don't seem to consider. The touching isn't even necessary as sufficiently levelled Tattoo classes can activate it by thought. They also (sometimes) use chants to assist them in the use of tatts. All of which makes it more complex than simply touch the tattoo and think "on".

The Magic Tattoos are more advanced than Magic Wards, Runes, or Scrolls which are all single use that are easy to trigger since you can't possess a T-man and activate new tattoos (can make use of some already activated, but not activate new ones).

No really it is ridiculous, particularly since you're left with the question of 'wait where'd he get those replacement skills then?' along with the question of 'well what if some of his skills are just him choosing to keep previous ones he had?'. It's really a bit of nerfing rather than leaving it up to a GM to deal with someone who'd want to have their character have a previous class that was very skill laden (like an Academy Officer from Ninjas and Superspies).

Why can't the Forge experience also be responsible for the replacement skills?

The process isn't really nerfing either. Compared to Palladium usual approach to multi-classing (examples in Rifts, not to mention the generic version) this is pretty clean and easy to implement, and you can role up a 1st level CmK w/o having to really worry about his/her/its previous character class and level.

[Tor]

If the Forge wiped out my literacy and computer-operation skill, I feel that would be a major change to my identity.

Not as bad as what the Light does to Guardians perhaps, but still seems worse than what Vampirism does.

[Nightmask]

IMO you just killed your whole argument by bringing the "tie your shoes" in as a skill (that you imply) they would lose right along with "use a magic tattoo".

I agree it wasn't the best example of skills they have, but aren't listed/take up a slot. Its intended to show how absurd the idea that we need a skill for everything like "use magic tattoo" or "use magic spell/ritual" or "suit up in armor".

Yet that seems to have been the argument you've been making, by insisting that the Forge wipes you down to nothing because it says it removes skills, when we all know when Palladium references skills they're talking about what's actually considered a skill (i.e. what you put down under a character on their SKILL section) and not everything that can be remotely considered a skill from a way too expansive use of the word.

You're really reaching there, and 'trained in the use' more plausibly means 'now we're going to instruct you in how to use these things in various situations' rather than 'gee it requires intensive training for you to just turn the things on'. Touch it and think 'On' is no more a skill I'd expect them to lose than I would 'hold in hand pull trigger' if they knew how to use a gun.

It isn't simply touch it and think "on". You have to also channel the necessary P.P.E, which is something you don't seem to consider. The touching isn't even necessary as sufficiently levelled Tattoo classes can activate it by thought. They also (sometimes) use chants to assist them in the use of tatts. All of which makes it more complex than simply touch the tattoo and think "on".

The Magic Tattoos are more advanced than Magic Wards, Runes, or Scrolls which are all single use that are easy to trigger since you can't possess a T-man and activate new tattoos (can make use of some already activated, but not activate new ones).

I didn't go ahead and include the PPE part because it really wasn't important to the point, that activating a tattoo is not something that requires an actual skill as Palladium defines them nor would such be affected by the Cosmo-Knight rebirth if the tattoos remained functional.

No really it is ridiculous, particularly since you're left with the question of 'wait where'd he get those replacement skills then?' along with the question of 'well what if some of his skills are just him choosing to keep previous ones he had?'. It's really a bit of nerfing rather than leaving it up to a GM to deal with someone who'd want to have their character have a previous class that was very skill laden (like an Academy Officer from Ninjas and Superspies).

Why can't the Forge experience also be responsible for the replacement skills?

The process isn't really nerfing either. Compared to Palladium usual approach to multi-classing (examples in Rifts, not to mention the generic version) this is pretty clean and easy to implement, and you can role up a 1st level CmK w/o having to really worry about his/her/its previous character class and level.

That really is nerfing, when you can have a 10 level Special Forces guy get selected and comes out a 1st level Cosmo-Knight with all 1st level skills making him no different than the High School drop-out who also got selected (and who likely ends up with more skills afterwards).

[Tor]

Nothing about the visions the Forge provides necessarily inform a Cosmo-Knight about the skill loss either, it isn't explicitly spelled out as something they're warned about.

Imagine if you were a life-saving surgeon. It makes the offer to you, and you think "cool, now I can go longer without sleep and perform more surgeries, fight some crime in my spare time, help treat people in places normal doctors can't get to.."

and then the forge strips you of your medical skills and you botch with your next patient and they die because unlike Guardians you didn't get any cool healing powers.

[ShadowLogan]

Yet that seems to have been the argument you've been making, by insisting that the Forge wipes you down to nothing because it says it removes skills, when we all know when Palladium references skills they're talking about what's actually considered a skill (i.e. what you put down under a character on their SKILL section) and not everything that can be remotely considered a skill from a way too expansive use of the word.

The book states the Forge wipes you down to nothing in terms of skills, not me. And not all "skills" are part of the character selection. M@A-classes can suit up in armor faster than non-M@A classes due to training, but there is not skill for it. Mages are thought how to channel PPE, etc. Those are all skills they would lose.

I didn't go ahead and include the PPE part because it really wasn't important to the point, that activating a tattoo is not something that requires an actual skill as Palladium defines them nor would such be affected by the Cosmo-Knight rebirth if the tattoos remained functional.

The PPE part is important though. Without it, and without knowing how to channel the PPE properly, you can not activate the tattoos. Given that possessing entities can't activate new tattoos, it isn't simply touch and thinking "on".

That really is nerfing, when you can have a 10 level Special Forces guy get selected and comes out a 1st level Cosmo-Knight with all 1st level skills making him no different than the High School drop-out who also got selected (and who likely ends up with more skills afterwards).

Not really. While you are essentially switching classes, how much time is perceived by the character during transformation that those skills can't be considered to have atrophied to the point of non-use? Sure you can select some of them again and start fresh.

[Nightmask]

Yet that seems to have been the argument you've been making, by insisting that the Forge wipes you down to nothing because it says it removes skills, when we all know when Palladium references skills they're talking about what's actually considered a skill (i.e. what you put down under a character on their SKILL section) and not everything that can be remotely considered a skill from a way too expansive use of the word.

The book states the Forge wipes you down to nothing in terms of skills, not me. And not all "skills" are part of the character selection. M@A-classes can suit up in armor faster than non-M@A classes due to training, but there is not skill for it. Mages are thought how to channel PPE, etc. Those are all skills they would lose.

No the book really doesn't state that, or at least not how you're insisting it should be interpreted. We know what Palladium means when it refers to skills, namely those things in the section listed as skills, unless you see some extremely clear language otherwise it doesn't mean losing literally everything that's considered a skill since even walking and eating without making a mess are skills you have to learn.

[ShadowLogan]

No the book really doesn't state that, or at least not how you're insisting it should be interpreted. We know what Palladium means when it refers to skills, namely those things in the section listed as skills, unless you see some extremely clear language otherwise it doesn't mean losing literally everything that's considered a skill since even walking and eating without making a mess are skills you have to learn.

And it is also clear that magic is one of those skills that you have to learn how to do and is covered by that aspect.

DB2 pg103 "Fallen knights can learn magic OR psionics, use the mind melter or ley line walker O.C.C.s in terms of spells/powers gained, but the fallen knight does NOT get that O.C.C.s special abilities, just the magic spells or psionic powers." So Magic is a learned skill. While a note on Magic/Psionic powers gained is lacking from the regular CmK, that would imply it is just as limited (if not more so) than the Fallen version. It would also mean that Tattoo magic is unavailable to them since it is not a features of the spells gained from being a Ley Line Walker.

[13eowulf]

Alternatively a DG character with 'tattoo envy' could seek out other forms of Tattoos, for example, Yakuza Tattoos, or Danzi Tattoos, or seek out a Nazcan line mage and have some line magic tattoo'd on him, and/or get some tats from a diabolist.

There is more than one kind of magical tattoo....

[Nightmask]

No the book really doesn't state that, or at least not how you're insisting it should be interpreted. We know what Palladium means when it refers to skills, namely those things in the section listed as skills, unless you see some extremely clear language otherwise it doesn't mean losing literally everything that's considered a skill since even walking and eating without making a mess are skills you have to learn.

And it is also clear that magic is one of those skills that you have to learn how to do and is covered by that aspect.

DB2 pg103 "Fallen knights can learn magic OR psionics, use the mind melter or ley line walker O.C.C.s in terms of spells/powers gained, but the fallen knight does NOT get that O.C.C.s special abilities, just the magic spells or psionic powers." So Magic is a learned skill. While a note on Magic/Psionic powers gained is lacking from the regular CmK, that would imply it is just as limited (if not more so) than the Fallen version. It would also mean that Tattoo magic is unavailable to them since it is not a features of the spells gained from being a Ley Line Walker.

Tattoo magic isn't magic they're learning, not unless they're learning how to MAKE them. The tattoos themselves are little more than built-in magic items that run off personal PPE, there's no actual skill required to make them work and things regarding the Fallen Knight are irrelevant, Fallen Knights are explicitly different than what they were before their fall and again you don't LEARN Tattoo magic you HAVE tattoo magic like you HAVE a gun or sword.

[cosmicfish]

I do not think that the descriptions of either the Cosmo-Knight transformation OR the use of tattoos is adequate to really answer this, which is the whole reason I brought the question up. It can't be answered from the rules, it needs to be answered in a manner that makes sense with the narratives and game balance. The original description of the Cosmo-Knight which removes old skills and implants new ones appears to simply have been made for the dual purpose of explaining the viability of transforming non-combat individuals (housewife to Cosmo-Knight would NEED some mental programming) while still preventing game-breaking players from abusing the system. That is, I think the narrative is subordinate to the mechanic, and should be considered flexible so long as the two prior issues are adequately addressed.

As far as Cosmo-Knight memory goes, it seems clear to me that some level of memory must remain. Wiping the memory completely would destroy a lot of the aspects that presumably led to their selection in the first place, and if it happened it would imply that the selection process must be arbitrary (since the CK would be rebuilt mentally as well as physically). I think this would also come out as public knowledge at some point - with the sheer numbers, it would seem sooner or later it would have gotten out that they have no memory of their past lives, which in turn would make it progressively harder to recruit non-suicidal candidates.

Likewise, while it seems that activating a tattoo requires some level of knowledge, it appears to be a trivial level - while repeated use does show some benefits (for full T-men), any person can get a magic tattoo without having to devote any particular time or effort to learning how to use it at a basic level. It seems that if the cosmic forge wiped out skills down to this level that Cosmo-Knights would be impaired in a LOT of ways initially. Again, the need for Cosmo-Knights to relearn basic skills (as opposed to Skills that require slots and OCC abilities) would likely be a publicly known issue that would tend to deter people from saying "yes".

I do agree that the physiological transformation would likely destroy the functionality of the tattoos and possibly even the inks, and I consider my own question satisfied. If a more general discussion of the Cosmo-Knight transformation is desired it should probably be in a new thread.

[Tor]

Perhaps the process is arbitrary, the Forge does select scoundrels and thieves after all.