Palladium Fantasy Spells seem superior?

[Proseksword]

Does anyone else find it odd that the versions of a number of the primary spell invocations from RIFTs are actually superior in Palladium Fantasy?

Fantasy PPE Talismans can be fully recharged, RIFTs ones seemingly can't.

Fantasy Sanctums will tele-boot anyone who tries to gank you in your lair, RIFTs sanctums won't do a thing about someone busting in with a vibro-blade.

Fantasy Golems have 250 SDC minimum, and improved PS for Iron Golems. RIFTs golems fall far short of even 80% of SDC>MDC

Fantasy Swords to Snakes has a 6lb limit, RIFTs is 4lbs.

There just appear to be a number of strange instances where the RIFTs version of a spell is significantly worse for seemingly no reason.

What do you think? Is their a reason to this rhyme?

[Zer0 Kay]

I think your right. I had thought if rifts is 100 times more potent in magic, shouldn't everything be 100 times? Not just damage but range, duration,everything. Magic resistance, not so much, except to maybe creatures who just arrived in dimension, from a low ambient magic world. For example something crossing from nightbane to rifts earth and suffer some sort of penalty, their bodies not used to the high levels. While someone from splicers gets no bonuses at all

[ShadowLogan]

In some ways they are. Look at protection spells (AoI ex) offers better relative protection in PF than in Rifts. PF offers 100SDC +10 per level, Rifts is 10MDC per level, not the usual 1:1 conversion used elsewhere. However most damage spells are 1:1, go figure.

Its magic though, they may not follow the same exact rules on Rifts Earth as Palladium World, or other magic dimensions.

[Tor]

Fantasy Golems have 250 SDC minimum, and improved PS for Iron Golems. RIFTs golems fall far short of even 80% of SDC>MDC

This is one comparison I will protest, because there is one notable difference here.

Rifts golems can be smaller, making them a lot more useful, their minimum size is only 6 feet. PF's golem is a minimum of 10 feet.

A 6ft golem can follow you into far more cramped quarters, and is easier to disguise as a normal human. You could probably fit loose MDC clothing on them. Not sure about tight stuff like armor though because even if they're the same height, based on the picture, golems look bulkier and stuff and might need custom-made armor.

I believe that Rifts' Book of Magic also increased the stats for golems, although that might've just been the Earth Warlock version. They have a higher damage capacity now. It gets even higher if you use a diamond-studded heart to make them, something the PF version doesn't allow for.

For everything else mentioned I agree though.

[Incriptus]

My no prize answer is that ... Palladium is still a high magic world and has a more stable magic level. Stability may account for a certain level of increased finesse for the talismans or sanctums. And the fact that Palladium is still a higher magic level that's why you don't get the 1:100 conversion. If we had a mediocre magic fantasy world perhaps the ratio would be more direct.

[eliakon]

If one does a detailed study of the spells you notice that they are different in the various settings.
While the names are (usually) the same, some things differ....a save here, a ppe cost there, now a level, now an ability.........
*shrugs* I guess my point is that its not that the spells convert oddly, its that the different game lines have different (but similar) spell lists that thus have different (but similar) effects....

[Proseksword]

its that the different game lines have different (but similar) spell lists that thus have different (but similar) effects....

I guess the thing that feels odd about it is that RIFTs is supposed to be the more magic rich-setting, and that most of the spells mentioned were originally in Palladium Fantasy and were ported over to RIFTs, but for some reason appear to have been nerfed, and I'm not quite sure why. What was so threatening about a Talisman you could actually recharge all the way? Was it just a typo that remained in the rules because of inertia? It just seems like a strange adjustment to make.....

[42dragon]

One thing to consider is that Magic is much older and more widely practiced on the Palladium world. Palladium has developed magic to be the technology of the world. With much more time to refine exactly how the spells work on thier world it is reasonable to believe that perhaps they are better at it.

[Sureshot]

I can see it as being more that the magic has been practiced more in Palladium Fantasy than it has on Rifts Earth. Power level the magic should five if not ten times stronger on Rifts Earth. The flow of magic is so powerful that mages should be stronger than everyone else imo. My only other complaint that some spells that work in Palladium Fantasy suddenly either don't work or have major restrictions. If one is wearing armor or in a vehicle or power armor Bliding Flash does not work. Yet somehow a Vampire ability to hypnotize people does.

[guardiandashi]

I can see it as being more that the magic has been practiced more in Palladium Fantasy than it has on Rifts Earth. Power level the magic should five if not ten times stronger on Rifts Earth. The flow of magic is so powerful that mages should be stronger than everyone else imo. My only other complaint that some spells that work in Palladium Fantasy suddenly either don't work or have major restrictions. If one is wearing armor or in a vehicle or power armor Bliding Flash does not work. Yet somehow a Vampire ability to hypnotize people does.

well re the blinding flash vs hypnotic suggestion defense in armor I can actually explain that away.
the Flash triggers the armor/vehicles anti flash countermeasures due to polarization active optics or whatever... the hypnotic component isn't something that the systems can detect, so they can't filter it out/respond to it.

[Tor]

Forgot to mention, best Golem was from 1st ed PRPG. Had no minimum height, so could plausibly make a 1-inch tall Homunculus with full stats, send it to assassinate people, carry a guardian in your pocket.

its not that the spells convert oddly, its that the different game lines have different (but similar) spell lists that thus have different (but similar) effects....

Correct, just like with skills, species and even NPCs. Many things share the same name but are different.

[Nightmaster]

Forgot to mention, best Golem was from 1st ed PRPG. Had no minimum height, so could plausibly make a 1-inch tall Homunculus with full stats, send it to assassinate people, carry a guardian in your pocket.

its not that the spells convert oddly, its that the different game lines have different (but similar) spell lists that thus have different (but similar) effects....

Correct, just like with skills, species and even NPCs. Many things share the same name but are different.

Or its simple sloppy conversions of the Palladium Fantasy spells to the Rifts ambient made by Palladium staff?

Its not some metaphisical theory or other esoteric mumble jumble the reason of the diference between PF spells and their Rifts equivalent. Its simple bad conversion.

[Tor]

I don't think overtly changing the statistics in a spell qualifies as a bad or sloppy conversion. Those terms imply mistakes. Kev making Talisman store 50 longterm instead of 30 wasn't a mistake, it was an upgrade.

There is the possibility that he would have intended those upgrades to carry over to Rifts, perhaps in a later sourcebook, but when the time came to do BoM/RUE he forgot about PF2nd upgrades and directly upgraded RMB/FoM stuff.

[Shark_Force]

.....


oh, the irony.

[Tor]

If you're trying to derail this with discussion of fencing again, this is a different situation because Kev wrote PF, he didn't write Splicers.

[eliakon]

Its not about fencing, its about the fact that the spells are NOT just copy pasted. Some books have different versions. Even the SDC worlds don't always have the same versions.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Does anyone else find it odd that the versions of a number of the primary spell invocations from RIFTs are actually superior in Palladium Fantasy?

...snip...

What do you think? Is their a reason to this rhyme?

No, it is not odd that the better setting has better spells.

PFRPG was the 1st game setting with magic that PB made.

[Tor]

the spells are NOT just copy pasted. Some books have different versions. Even the SDC worlds don't always have the same versions.

Different versions are due to the spell being altered after the copy+paste is done.

PFRPG was the 1st game setting PB made.

Mechanoid Invasion was April 1981, Recon sometime in 81 or 82, PRPG was July 1983, then Valley of the Pharaohs in September 1983 and HU in 1984