Zavor as a weapon against the CS

[flatline]

Instead of derailing other threads, here's a thread for discussing how enemies of the CS might use Zavor against the CS and what we might expect the results to be.

--flatline

[Alrik Vas]

Well, in order to not involve rival magic groups that may feel using zavor might be crossing the line, you'd probably have to go with targeted attacks that won't cause much overbleed into non-military areas. They might not be the best tool for the job.

That being said, if you could rift them into the armories, they could probably make short work of most forward bases.

[flatline]

Does the CS have a standard sdc sidearm suitable for firing silver or wooden ammunition?

-flatline

[wyrmraker]

Does the CS have a standard sdc sidearm suitable for firing silver or wooden ammunition?

-flatline

I would think that probably only Lone Star would have that as standard issue, thanks to the proximity to the Vampire Kingdoms.

[Tor]

*Be level 1 shifter, have a Dire Harpy minion, it grabs Zavor by the arms without actually harming it and begins to ascend.
*Dharpy flies as high as possible above Chi-Town (they can fly into space) while staying below the killer satellites (per MiOp84 the closest they come is 281 miles, so say 280).
*Now out of the range of everything but long-range missiles (which actually have enough range to hit killer-satellites, begging the question why the CS and NGR have not started to attack them, perhaps scanner limitations?)
*Dig claws into Zavor, causing it to split into 2, drop 1 of the 2
*repeat, and spit Lava down on Chi-Town while you're at it.
*if there is a breeze that would blow the Zavor off-course, position may have to be adjusted, but even if it doesn't hit Chi-Town it'd still end up in the Burbs area, causing some hassle

The Zavor would probably inflict some impact damage on Chi-Town from falling 280 miles (not sure how much) but wouldn't take any themselves unless the CS happened to have a wooden or iron roof (not likely since it's MDC and probably made from synthetics). They could then begin to slowly tear away at the place with their annoying low-MD attacks.

If CS did catch on and begin using wood spikes on the roof, the Lava Spit would help eat away at it

The only defense is for the CS to target your Harpy with Long-Range missiles. Do their sensors extend 280 miles in the air though? The ability to target people with long-range weaponry is limited by the range of your senses, you need to know where to target them. This is often accomplished by having a scout closer to a target to relay a position for you. The higher-flying CS aircraft (like the Talon) can't get anywhere near a height of 280 miles. Short of commandeering a space-capable Naruni aircraft to scout the Dharpy, I don't know how they would target something with a missile when it's flying that high.

In trying to find guidelines for sensor range, I notice RMBp214 says robots have a 30 mile radar and targetting computer. If we assume this applies to non-robot vehicles as well, it's still inadequate. Does anyone know about anything in Rifts with longer-range sensors than this? It's never been something I've paid much attention to. In realizing the usefulness of long-range weaponry as time goes on though, I realize it's essential to actually make use of the longest-range weapons.

[flatline]

Does the CS have a standard sdc sidearm suitable for firing silver or wooden ammunition?

-flatline

I would think that probably only Lone Star would have that as standard issue, thanks to the proximity to the Vampire Kingdoms.

So if I'm a grunt about to go on patrol looking for critters that require special ammunition to harm, what kinds of projectile weapons are available to me to choose from? Surely the CS has mass produced firearms for this sort of thing.

--flatline

[Shark_Force]

Does the CS have a standard sdc sidearm suitable for firing silver or wooden ammunition?

-flatline

they should. but they don't.

practically speaking, i would say that the CS has full access to the ability to manufacture standard SDC weapons, but i can't think of a single CS OCC that is assigned such gear as standard.

that said, *most* of the CS OCCs do have something in the "available equipment upon assignment" section to the effect of "you can give them regular stuff if the mission requires it" (though they do have the caveat that it's typically for infiltration purposes). regardless, i would say that the CS does at least keep conventional firearms on hand, though probably not in particularly large numbers (if their primary reason for issuing such weapons is subterfuge, well, at some point if you're needing to issue hundreds of thousands of weapons for "subterfuge" you're not going to be blending in with the enemy because you'll outnumber them so much that the enemy is blending in with you).

so, as written, once someone figures out their weakness, you can bet someone's going to be assigned those weapons, and any appropriate ammo, that are in the area... but not every location would necessarily have a lot of them (a megacity definitely would, but a small military outpost or checkpoint? probably only enough to fend off a handful of rogue vampires in most parts of the CS).

of course, that's the official answer. unofficially? screw that, i'd say the CS issues everyone at least a decent pistol, probably in a reasonable calibre. silver bullets probably wouldn't be standard issue if you accept that the CS has millions of soldiers, plus dog boys besides, but i would say wood and even iron rounds would see reasonable distribution levels. heck, i'd expect wood and silver bullets to be more common than lead, to be honest.

[ShadowLogan]

Does the CS have a standard sdc sidearm suitable for firing silver or wooden ammunition?

-flatline

No, but Railguns can be converted to fire silver and wooden ammunition (mentioned in the Zavor text). So the CS likely would simply trade out the ammunition in their railguns. Limits who can engage them sucessfully, but it isn't like the CR-40 can't be made man-portable (via team).

[flatline]

So where do we have rules for iron, silver, and wooden ammunition?

Despite the reduced expansion on impact, I'm willing to assume that silver or iron bullets probably do roughly the same damage as a regular bullet.

Wooden bullets, however, I have my doubts about. How could a wooden bullet escape the barrel intact?

Anyways, the typical zavor has 30 HP and 50 SDC, so it would take 4 shots from a high powered rifle (assuming 6d6 damage per shot) to eliminate it. Smaller weapons (pistols, sub-machine guns, etc) would require proportionately more ammunition on average, but the ammunition is lighter and smaller, so from a "how much ammunition can you carry" perspective, you might get better results from pistol cartridges.

I'm totally ignoring rail guns because even if every railgun was supplied with relevant ammunition, only a small fraction of the CS forces will have them. I'm also ignoring any contribution from psi-net or other psychic forces to fight the zavor since the number of zavor should be large enough that ISP-fueled abilities will run dry long before the zavor numbers are greatly impacted.

--flatline

[AzathothXy]

I'm pretty sure the NTSET guys have anti-supernatural ammo and weapons.

[flatline]

I'm pretty sure the NTSET guys have anti-supernatural ammo and weapons.

Any idea what the stats are?

--flatline

[The Beast]

So where do we have rules for iron, silver, and wooden ammunition?

Vampire Kingdoms.

[Killer Cyborg]

Wooden bullets, however, I have my doubts about. How could a wooden bullet escape the barrel intact?

Some info on historical wooden bullets:
https://suite.io/christopher-eger/253d27m

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Dropping a zavor from that height it might end up anywhere depending on the wind speed at the time.

[ShadowLogan]

Despite the reduced expansion on impact, I'm willing to assume that silver or iron bullets probably do roughly the same damage as a regular bullet.

Per the text in the Zavor, a railgun (using suitable ammunition) round (or burst?) would obliterate them. To me that suggests you don't even have to roll damage since they are still HP/SDC creatures.

There are notations in a few RG systems about switching ammunition IIRC, but off hand I don't recall specific examples of damage changes.

I'm totally ignoring rail guns because even if every railgun was supplied with relevant ammunition, only a small fraction of the CS forces will have them. I'm also ignoring any contribution from psi-net or other psychic forces to fight the zavor since the number of zavor should be large enough that ISP-fueled abilities will run dry long before the zavor numbers are greatly impacted.

I agree the RG approach limits who can use them, but access doesn't seem to be as much of an issue when you have 1 million old style SAMAS in storage. Then you have vehicle and other mechanized support platforms that use railguns that grunts can engage from (still places limits on when one can engage).

The CS does have that knockoff of Triax Pump weapons, which per WB5 do have DU/U-rounds (1/4 damage) beyond the basic explosive round, so it might be possible to have additional appropriate material based rounds for them.

The CS may have to use melee attacks (IIRC some CWC OCCs mention silver weapons as standard equipment option) and other indirect methods (immobilize instead of kill, does a Zavor need to breathe, eat, or drink). And CS Grunts do have option of a non-energy weapon of choice (RMB/RUE), though specifics are lacking. So the CS appears to have them, but probably nothing CS specific (indicating generic table) in name so no C-##, just old school reproductions (like M-16, AK-47, etc).

Something else to consider. RG rounds could be considered Iron (they are ferrous material). Plus Frag grenades might also be effective to some degree if the fragmets are considered to be made of iron (or silver or wood, though these last two likely require them to be built this way).

[Shark_Force]

minor side note: ferrous means made of iron. you don't need to say that something ferrous is made of iron, any more than you have to say that something wooden is made of wood, or that ceramics are made with clay.

i believe the word you are looking for is magnetic. railgun rounds (or rather, coilgun rounds, as we're fairly certain they mean) have to be magnetic, not ferrous. iron is merely the stronger and more commonly used naturally magnetic material. nickel and cobalt, for example, are both magnetic, as are any number of alloys of those materials (and in fact, certain alloys are more strongly magnetic than conventional iron magnets - the strongest being "neodymium" to my knowledge, which is now common and inexpensive enough that it's used in stuff like children's toys). any of those materials could be used, potentially (and in the cases of the stronger magnetic fields, should lead to better acceleration... although in the case of neodymium in particular you'd need some sort of shell or coating as well because it's very brittle).

alternately, if the guns actually are railguns, you don't even need magnetic, just conductive. truthfully, it should even be possible to use electromagnets for a coilgun, although there is absolutely no indication whatsoever that the slugs are electromagnets in any rifts railgun that i'm aware of (and in fact, there's at least one fairly clear indication that they are not, that i can think of; a mention that any machine shop can make railgun rounds easily, which would not be the case if you needed electromagnets).

so, railgun rounds *might* be iron. they might be steel. they might even be nickel, or cobalt, or any number of magnetic alloys, or even electromagnets. we do know that jacketed rounds with a core of iron are used for wooden railgun slugs (one of the stronger indications that the authors actually mean coilguns, not railguns), so it's also possible that they do the same with regular railgun slugs; a core of iron or steel, and the rest is lead or some mega-damage alloy or material (arguably, the fact that putting a wooden jacket around an iron core doesn't lead to problems with the timing of the magnets that fire the slug would suggest that regular slugs are likewise not solid iron, but that's somewhat speculative).

so, long story short: maybe the standard railgun (and by railgun i mean coilgun) slug is iron. maybe it's not. iron or steel are probably the most likely, though.

[kaid]

Does the CS have a standard sdc sidearm suitable for firing silver or wooden ammunition?

-flatline

I would think that probably only Lone Star would have that as standard issue, thanks to the proximity to the Vampire Kingdoms.

Given the number of troops they also have stationed along the magic zone boundries and up and down the mississippi and by the ST louis gate I would assume if not standard issue there would at least be local issue supplies of guns with wood/silver rounds in areas where supernatural threats are common.

[Lukterran]

"Rail guns that shoot wood or iron shards will obliterate a zavor." Direct quote from Zavor natural abilities. I am sure that the CS would have iron rail gun rounds in their normal supply chain. Wood rounds would be available for Special Forces dealing with Vampire threats.

That Dire Harpy plan to drop Zavors on Chi Town wouldn't work for very long before the CS got wise to what was happening and deal with the threat. CS have missiles and radar that could reach that range and as well as aircraft they could send to blow "zavor bomber" out of the sky. A better plan would be to a mass a huge number of zavor in some kind of holding area in underground cavern (or perhaps a tempora/diminsional realm) and unleash them in the general direction of the CS. It would diffenently cause them some grieve and be a huge distraction for the CS.

They would never be able to completely destroy the CS. Even if Chi Town was completely over run with billions of Zavor most of the CS can uproot moving there hardware and facilities out in an evacuation. Zavors can't fly and don't have any special powers to extend their combat range beyond normal melee. Zavor aren't fast enough to keep up with an motor vehicles. So eventually the CS would be able to deal with them even if they got surprised by billions of zavor pooring into Chi Town.

[Lukterran]

"Rail guns that shoot wood or iron shards will obliterate a zavor." Direct quote from Zavor natural abilities. I am sure that the CS would have iron rail gun rounds in their normal supply chain. Wood rounds would be available for Special Forces dealing with Vampire threats.

That Dire Harpy plan to drop Zavors on Chi Town wouldn't work for very long before the CS got wise to what was happening and deal with the threat. CS have missiles and radar that could reach that range and as well as aircraft they could send to blow "zavor bomber" out of the sky. A better plan would be to a mass a huge number of zavor in some kind of holding area in underground cavern (or perhaps a tempora/diminsional realm) and unleash them in the general direction of the CS. It would diffenently cause them some grieve and be a huge distraction for the CS.

They would never be able to completely destroy the CS. Even if Chi Town was completely over run with billions of Zavor most of the CS can uproot moving there hardware and facilities out in an evacuation. Zavors can't fly and don't have any special powers to extend their combat range beyond normal melee. Zavor aren't fast enough to keep up with an motor vehicles. So eventually the CS would be able to deal with them even if they got surprised by billions of zavor pooring into Chi Town.

[The Beast]

I'd like to point out that none of the CS's attacks will cause the duplication to begin since the CS doesn't use magic, and Zavor are still vulnerable to psionics, which the CS does use. In addition to that:

Ironically, a Zavor, prior to a magically induced duplication, is shy, quiet, and completely nonaggressive, not even fighting to defend itself.

[Hystrix]

I'd like to point out that none of the CS's attacks will cause the duplication to begin since the CS doesn't use magic, and Zavor are still vulnerable to psionics, which the CS does use. In addition to that:

Ironically, a Zavor, prior to a magically induced duplication, is shy, quiet, and completely nonaggressive, not even fighting to defend itself.

Well, that ends this debate pretty quick.

[Tor]

Dropping a zavor from that height it might end up anywhere depending on the wind speed at the time.

Which is why I said:

*if there is a breeze that would blow the Zavor off-course, position may have to be adjusted, but even if it doesn't hit Chi-Town it'd still end up in the Burbs area, causing some hassle

The harpy can be told to adjust position, and it still creates chaos for the CS even if you don't get a direct roof landing. Means they have to spread out forces more.

That Dire Harpy plan to drop Zavors on Chi Town wouldn't work for very long before the CS got wise to what was happening and deal with the threat. CS have missiles and radar that could reach that range

Missiles have that range. Radar: where? Like I said, I could only find radar that goes 30 miles, that isn't far enough.

as well as aircraft they could send to blow "zavor bomber" out of the sky.

Name 1. The altitude limits of things like the Death's Head and Talon don't go anywhere near that high.

Specifically tell me one thing you think could reach a harpy that high up and where you are getting the ranges.

A better plan would be to a mass a huge number of zavor in some kind of holding area in underground cavern (or perhaps a tempora/diminsional realm) and unleash them in the general direction of the CS. It would diffenently cause them some grieve and be a huge distraction for the CS.

They would never be able to completely destroy the CS. Even if Chi Town was completely over run with billions of Zavor most of the CS can uproot moving there hardware and facilities out in an evacuation. Zavors can't fly and don't have any special powers to extend their combat range beyond normal melee.

Agreed, which is why you do need assistance placing them.

Zavor aren't fast enough to keep up with an motor vehicles. So eventually the CS would be able to deal with them even if they got surprised by billions of zavor pooring into Chi Town.

If they want to drive forever, sure.

I'd like to point out that none of the CS's attacks will cause the duplication to begin since the CS doesn't use magic, and Zavor are still vulnerable to psionics, which the CS does use. In addition to that:

Ironically, a Zavor, prior to a magically induced duplication, is shy, quiet, and completely nonaggressive, not even fighting to defend itself.

Well, that ends this debate pretty quick.

That doesn't end any debate, magic-users can divide Zavors and then send them at the CS. They're tiny MD-inflicting semi-invulnerable creatures, and it costs CS enemies essentially nothing to produce them.

[Blue_Lion]

Does the CS have a standard sdc sidearm suitable for firing silver or wooden ammunition?

-flatline

I would think that probably only Lone Star would have that as standard issue, thanks to the proximity to the Vampire Kingdoms.

Several CS OCCs have a sdc fire arm in their standard gear so yes they do have access to it.

By the way on radar RUE pg 265 has a Radar military-large semi portable radar with 100 mile range double that in open places. Is that an effective range? (Large non portable radar will have much greater range.) The reason not to shoot down the killer satellites is why waste the ammo.

Not sure what a Zevor is or where it is from but if it needs to breath then that caps the range. Will said creature surve being droped from near orbit?

[The Beast]

I'd like to point out that none of the CS's attacks will cause the duplication to begin since the CS doesn't use magic, and Zavor are still vulnerable to psionics, which the CS does use. In addition to that:

Ironically, a Zavor, prior to a magically induced duplication, is shy, quiet, and completely nonaggressive, not even fighting to defend itself.

Well, that ends this debate pretty quick.

That doesn't end any debate, magic-users can divide Zavors and then send them at the CS. They're tiny MD-inflicting semi-invulnerable creatures, and it costs CS enemies essentially nothing to produce them.

How would they be sending them to the CS? Zavor attack all life forms after duplication.

[Tor]

I already said how, drop them. Keep the original tied up and keep stabbing him in mid-air with a magic weapon or something and the dupe falls on your targets below, Zavor-bomb.

[The Beast]

Ok, I missed that.

[flatline]

How would they be sending them to the CS? Zavor attack all life forms after duplication.

It was a pretty dull day in the Burbs until the grunt heard one of his mates say "hey, what's that?". He looked up to see a small hole in the sky above the fortress city. Small man shaped figures began to pour out of it, some landing on top of the fortress city, others spilling over the edge. The grunt couldn't see them hit the ground due to the Burbs' "skyline" of dirty, broken structures, but from that height, he figured the result must be both messy and fatal.

That's when the radio chatter began.

"...thousands of creatures on top of the west edge...unarmed, but they're clawing and biting through...lasers don't hurt them, switching to projectiles...railguns knock them around, but they get back up...vampire rounds hurt 'em!!! Switch to vampire rounds!!!..."

Five minutes after it started, the hole closed and the dark shapes stopped falling from the sky. "There's another portal over East Gate!" crackled the radio. The grunt could only assume that this new hole in the sky was spewing thousands of dark shapes the same as the first hole did. He unslung his slug thrower and chambered a silver round. Based on the radio chatter, nothing else that he had would be effective.

...

You get the idea.

The obvious escalation of this is once CS forces have switched over to wooden/silver/iron rounds, shape changers (dragons, et al) might join the waves appearing as zavor, but without zavor weaknesses. And, of course, all this makes for one incredible distraction for whatever else the enemies of the CS might have planned.

--flatline

[Blue_Lion]

RUE has portable radar with up to 200 mile range and CS navy page 65 a AGIS radar with 800 mile range, so your bomber is within CS radar range as well as missile range. So much for your best radar is 30 miles theory. But hey lets just keep ignoring that.

Also the CS does have access to silver and wooden weapons, they are paranoid super natural hunters (they have had to deal with creatures that can only be hurt by such before) also they have access to psi soldiers so the CS is not helpless.

[flatline]

How do we make this all happen? Here's one possibility.

Find an uninhabited planet in an SDC universe (so the Zavor can't do MD with their claws and teeth). Any horrible planet will do since Zavor don't need food, water, or even an atmosphere. Dig several extremely deep holes that taper down at the bottom to the size that your GM rules you can make a Dimensional Portal. Reinforce the walls with whatever smooth, durable substance you brought with you (like sealed concrete) or can make (like obsidian). The goal is to make the hole big enough to hold however many Zavor your calculations/experiments say will fall through the dimensional portal during it's full duration (obviously, this is dependent on the portal size your GM allows and the gravitational pull of the planet you've chosen). Even a relatively shallow hole of just a hundred feed deep will hold thousands of zavor.

Construct an observation room at the bottom of each hole so that you can see the bottom, but are separated from the Zavor by something strong and transparent. Use Circle of Travel to move easily from one hole's observation room to another.

Strategically cast Eternal Flame around the areas that you've built your holes. I suggest several hundred castings per hole. This will allow the Zavor to reproduce on their own and guarantees that there will always be many Zavor in the proximity of each hole. Of course, you can speed up the whole thing by actively shooting zavor who aren't actively reproducing with a tk rifle or something, but really that's unnecessary since once you place your "seed" zavor on the planet's surface and it starts reproducing from the Eternal Flames, you'll have thousands in the first hour, millions in just a day or two. If you continue to cast Eternal Flame and/or seed the surface with cheap magic weapons, you could conceivably cover the entire surface of the planet given enough time.

Build up a supply of scrolls of dimensional portal or PPE batteries if you want to cast it as a ritual (recommended since the duration is twice as long this way). When you're ready, fill each hole with zavor, use Circle of Travel to enter the observation room, cast Dimensional Portal, and let your gigantic funnel filled with zavor drain through the portal. Circle of Travel to the next hole and do it again. And again, until you've drained all your giant holes of zavor. If you don't have a good way to corralling zavor into the holes, just wait for them to reproduce so much that their own numbers push them into the holes.

An extremely conservative 6'x6' dimensional portal could easily pass 20 zavor per second (6000 zavor over 5 minutes). The number of zavor goes up dramatically if your GM lets the size of the dimensional portal scale with your level.

I recommend targeting heavily populated areas so that CS forces fighting zavor do a lot of collateral damage.

--flatline

[Alrik Vas]

Again, the hypothetical is fine, but in the game environment, there would actually be idiots who would defend the CS citizens from this, even if they're normally a kill on sight to dead boys.

How long before a vanguard caster puts a stop to it? Or some principled dragon?

The plan is sound, totally, but its the kind of thing PCs would put a stop to...unless they were all evil gits who have no use for the world or order.

[Killer Cyborg]

"A plan is just a list of things that never happen."

[flatline]

Again, the hypothetical is fine, but in the game environment, there would actually be idiots who would defend the CS citizens from this, even if they're normally a kill on sight to dead boys.

How long before a vanguard caster puts a stop to it? Or some principled dragon?

The plan is sound, totally, but its the kind of thing PCs would put a stop to...unless they were all evil gits who have no use for the world or order.

How do they even find me to try to stop me? I'm in another dimension, remember?

If they hang around hoping to slip through one of my portals, they're going to be shot to pieces by the CS forces. If they do manage to go through a portal, the torrent of zavor flowing through it will probably push them right back through it again.

--flatline

[flatline]

"A plan is just a list of things that never happen."

Only if you suck at plans.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

"A plan is just a list of things that never happen."

Only if you suck at plans.

--flatline

Oh, the quote is an exaggeration to be sure, but the point is that a lot of the time, no matter how perfect your plan looks, it doesn't work out because there's too much going on in the universe that we don't know about.
History is full of plans that failed.
Of the plans that succeed, they rarely go exactly as expected.

And a plan that deals with magic, hordes of living creatures of unknown origin, dimensional travel, and unknown opposition?

Well, it looks good on paper, sure.
But that's the most that can be accurately said about it, because there are too many factors to know for sure how it would work out.

[Alrik Vas]

No one needs to find you, though. Couldn't another caster just use Close Rift and Dimensional Anchor?

[Tor]

He unslung his slug thrower and chambered a silver round. Based on the radio chatter, nothing else that he had would be effective.
...
You get the idea.

Still a major drain on CS resources though. Silver costs money, carrying variant ammo encumbers soldiers more, takes time to change weapons, Zavor will inflict property damage before they can be taken down, etc.

It's not so much that the threat is unmeetable, but that it is going to whittle them down. Even if every single CS citizen was given minor psychic abilities via psi-implants and equipped with TK weapon gauntlets that allowed unlimited free MD electrokinetic attacks to instantly 1-hit zavor forever, the Zavor are going to damage property when they land and they're going to claw a wall or a piece of armor before someone processes what's going on and reacts with an attack to off them.

This means a repair bill and a resource cost to the CS at basically no cost to the attacker who can keep this up indefinitely so long as the Dire Harpy can maintain their flight (even supernatural PE must get tired some time) and so long as the originating Zavor is adequately entangled so that it can't reach up and claw the harpy to death (or more likely, causing it to drop it in self-defense, requiring a new core-Zavor to be acquired)

RUE has portable radar with up to 200 mile range and CS navy page 65 a AGIS radar with 800 mile range

Thank you for providing this information, like I said, I didn't know where to look to find stuff like radar.

The portable radar would be insufficient (I'm having the Harpy up at 280 miles, and no aircraft can fly 80 miles in the air to supplement this) but the CS Navy's AGIS radar does the job.

so your bomber is within CS radar range as well as missile range. So much for your best radar is 30 miles theory. But hey lets just keep ignoring that.

Keep ignoring what? What I posted:
*The only defense is for the CS to target your Harpy with Long-Range missiles.
*Do their sensors extend 280 miles in the air though?
*In trying to find guidelines for sensor range, I notice RMBp214 says robots have a 30 mile radar and targetting computer.
*Does anyone know about anything in Rifts with longer-range sensors than this?

You clearly did know about longer-range sensors, and have answered the question, and invalidated my theory with your superior knowledge of CS tech.

My approach would now require flying higher than 800 miles to avoid CS long-range missiles, which would put a Zavor-dropper in range of the killer satellites.

It is interesting to note though: flying a lesser Deevil up so high that the CS has to expend a long-range missile to eliminate them might actually be a good economic deal.

Summoners can just replace them (revenge won't happen for ~decade assuming the idiots remember) with new expendible Dire Harpies. Whittle down Chi-Town's expensive (~25 000 a pop if I recall) supply of Long-Range missiles and create economic burdens on the CS.

The death of the Dire Harpy could also be avoided by returning it to it's own dimension before a missile hits. Any summoned via Summon Lesser Being can be returned at any time, so you can give it a conditional release of "when you see a missile coming at you".

Pretty much anyone is allowed to dodge a missile (so long as it's not an attack from behind, and the Harpy would be instructed to face earthward, making their 'behind' the sky) although IMO it would be realistic to incorporate perception rolls when such fast-moving attacks come from so far-off you can't see what's launching them.

Modifying the original plan accounting for being within LRM range, it would also be possible to do something like give the harpy a Talisman of Invincible Armor. This would allow the Harpy to be hit by any missile and survive it, giving time for them to return. They could actually wait to do this after 3 missiles (or 3 volleys) since they could renew the armor twice. There's also nothing preventing them from carrying multiple small talismans of the armor for long-term high-altitude zavor-bombing.

Also I am now wondering what happens if I strap a fire-globe to a zavor before dropping them...

Also the CS does have access to silver and wooden weapons, they are paranoid super natural hunters (they have had to deal with creatures that can only be hurt by such before) also they have access to psi soldiers so the CS is not helpless.

Who argued the CS is helpless? I just see it as a resource drain. If a new Zavor can be created every single melee attack, that's a lot of silver rounds or wooden arrows to make.

Again, the hypothetical is fine, but in the game environment, there would actually be idiots who would defend the CS citizens from this, even if they're normally a kill on sight to dead boys.

No doubt, I'm sure Cyber-Knights would actually be a huge help to the CS in the case like this, since they don't have ISP limits for using their psi-weapons. Much like Tolkeen this is a case where they would be glad to help out to save the public (CS military MDC stuff would be last priority of course, this is mostly to help farmers and unprotected)

How long before a vanguard caster puts a stop to it? Or some principled dragon?

Probably pretty long, since they can't do much to directly stop Zavor and would need to find a way to locate the source dimension/cast/spell. That or be one of the rare knowledgeable folk who know stuff like Anti-Magic Cloud to close the dimensional portals.

its the kind of thing PCs would put a stop to...unless they were all evil gits who have no use for the world or order.

PCs could easily have a plan to stop Zavor if they got out of hand after decimating the CS military core, perhaps forming a defensive line at the burbs and allowing non-soldiers to evacuate (which they would begin to do as the military fell apart, and could do so since Zavor are slow)

Couldn't another caster just use Close Rift and Dimensional Anchor?

Yes to first, not familiar with 2nd.

There is a PPE economics issue to consider though. Close Rift has a permanent PPE cost, and there are some cheap ways out there to open portals. The Astral Portal spell from Nightbane is way cheap, and Astral Realms can have permanent free (well, once you pay the creation point cost) portals that could at best by closed temporarily.

[Blue_Lion]

How do we make this all happen? Here's one possibility.

Find an uninhabited planet in an SDC universe (so the Zavor can't do MD with their claws and teeth). Any horrible planet will do since Zavor don't need food, water, or even an atmosphere. Dig several extremely deep holes that taper down at the bottom to the size that your GM rules you can make a Dimensional Portal. Reinforce the walls with whatever smooth, durable substance you brought with you (like sealed concrete) or can make (like obsidian). The goal is to make the hole big enough to hold however many Zavor your calculations/experiments say will fall through the dimensional portal during it's full duration (obviously, this is dependent on the portal size your GM allows and the gravitational pull of the planet you've chosen). Even a relatively shallow hole of just a hundred feed deep will hold thousands of zavor.

Construct an observation room at the bottom of each hole so that you can see the bottom, but are separated from the Zavor by something strong and transparent. Use Circle of Travel to move easily from one hole's observation room to another.

Strategically cast Eternal Flame around the areas that you've built your holes. I suggest several hundred castings per hole. This will allow the Zavor to reproduce on their own and guarantees that there will always be many Zavor in the proximity of each hole. Of course, you can speed up the whole thing by actively shooting zavor who aren't actively reproducing with a tk rifle or something, but really that's unnecessary since once you place your "seed" zavor on the planet's surface and it starts reproducing from the Eternal Flames, you'll have thousands in the first hour, millions in just a day or two. If you continue to cast Eternal Flame and/or seed the surface with cheap magic weapons, you could conceivably cover the entire surface of the planet given enough time.

Build up a supply of scrolls of dimensional portal or PPE batteries if you want to cast it as a ritual (recommended since the duration is twice as long this way). When you're ready, fill each hole with zavor, use Circle of Travel to enter the observation room, cast Dimensional Portal, and let your gigantic funnel filled with zavor drain through the portal. Circle of Travel to the next hole and do it again. And again, until you've drained all your giant holes of zavor. If you don't have a good way to corralling zavor into the holes, just wait for them to reproduce so much that their own numbers push them into the holes.

An extremely conservative 6'x6' dimensional portal could easily pass 20 zavor per second (6000 zavor over 5 minutes). The number of zavor goes up dramatically if your GM lets the size of the dimensional portal scale with your level.

I recommend targeting heavily populated areas so that CS forces fighting zavor do a lot of collateral damage.

--flatline

How are you controlling where the portals is going to open on earth? The spell just targets world and the highest level shifters have a target of 50 miles that takes a level 10 shifter. Making targeting the high population of the CS hard to do. More than likely you will hit areas outside of the CS super cities. Resulting in flooding the wilderness with these that will tear threw and cause more damage to non CS personal and CS farm lands witch would result in loss off thousands of non CS people, does talk about hitting the farm lands. The large super cities are likely to survive relatively undamaged while the burgs might get free purge, and you released a major threat to most wilderness fold in NA, and the CS that they are right to hunt mages.

Rifts coalition war campaign world book 11 pg 223 There are two problems with this scenario. One, hundreds of
thousands of people will suffer, including thousands of D-bees and wilderness folk who also count on CS crops and food processing

[flatline]

No one needs to find you, though. Couldn't another caster just use Close Rift and Dimensional Anchor?

I'm not familiar with Dimensional Anchor. Where is it found and what does it do?

As to Close Rift, the plan is not severely impacted if a small number of the rifts are closed prematurely. Some zavor will get through before it's closed and we can always open another portal. The more interesting question is how is the caster getting within 100 feet of a rift opened over a fortress city without getting shot to pieces by the city defenses?

--flatline

[Blue_Lion]

He unslung his slug thrower and chambered a silver round. Based on the radio chatter, nothing else that he had would be effective.
...
You get the idea.

Still a major drain on CS resources though. Silver costs money, carrying variant ammo encumbers soldiers more, takes time to change weapons, Zavor will inflict property damage before they can be taken down, etc.

It's not so much that the threat is unmeetable, but that it is going to whittle them down. Even if every single CS citizen was given minor psychic abilities via psi-implants and equipped with TK weapon gauntlets that allowed unlimited free MD electrokinetic attacks to instantly 1-hit zavor forever, the Zavor are going to damage property when they land and they're going to claw a wall or a piece of armor before someone processes what's going on and reacts with an attack to off them.

This means a repair bill and a resource cost to the CS at basically no cost to the attacker who can keep this up indefinitely so long as the Dire Harpy can maintain their flight (even supernatural PE must get tired some time) and so long as the originating Zavor is adequately entangled so that it can't reach up and claw the harpy to death (or more likely, causing it to drop it in self-defense, requiring a new core-Zavor to be acquired)

RUE has portable radar with up to 200 mile range and CS navy page 65 a AGIS radar with 800 mile range

Thank you for providing this information, like I said, I didn't know where to look to find stuff like radar.

The portable radar would be insufficient (I'm having the Harpy up at 280 miles, and no aircraft can fly 80 miles in the air to supplement this) but the CS Navy's AGIS radar does the job.

so your bomber is within CS radar range as well as missile range. So much for your best radar is 30 miles theory. But hey lets just keep ignoring that.

Keep ignoring what? What I posted:
*The only defense is for the CS to target your Harpy with Long-Range missiles.
*Do their sensors extend 280 miles in the air though?
*In trying to find guidelines for sensor range, I notice RMBp214 says robots have a 30 mile radar and targetting computer.
*Does anyone know about anything in Rifts with longer-range sensors than this?

You clearly did know about longer-range sensors, and have answered the question, and invalidated my theory with your superior knowledge of CS tech.

My approach would now require flying higher than 800 miles to avoid CS long-range missiles, which would put a Zavor-dropper in range of the killer satellites.

It is interesting to note though: flying a lesser Deevil up so high that the CS has to expend a long-range missile to eliminate them might actually be a good economic deal.

Summoners can just replace them (revenge won't happen for ~decade assuming the idiots remember) with new expendible Dire Harpies. Whittle down Chi-Town's expensive (~25 000 a pop if I recall) supply of Long-Range missiles and create economic burdens on the CS.

The death of the Dire Harpy could also be avoided by returning it to it's own dimension before a missile hits. Any summoned via Summon Lesser Being can be returned at any time, so you can give it a conditional release of "when you see a missile coming at you".

Pretty much anyone is allowed to dodge a missile (so long as it's not an attack from behind, and the Harpy would be instructed to face earthward, making their 'behind' the sky) although IMO it would be realistic to incorporate perception rolls when such fast-moving attacks come from so far-off you can't see what's launching them.

Modifying the original plan accounting for being within LRM range, it would also be possible to do something like give the harpy a Talisman of Invincible Armor. This would allow the Harpy to be hit by any missile and survive it, giving time for them to return. They could actually wait to do this after 3 missiles (or 3 volleys) since they could renew the armor twice. There's also nothing preventing them from carrying multiple small talismans of the armor for long-term high-altitude zavor-bombing.

Also I am now wondering what happens if I strap a fire-globe to a zavor before dropping them...

Also the CS does have access to silver and wooden weapons, they are paranoid super natural hunters (they have had to deal with creatures that can only be hurt by such before) also they have access to psi soldiers so the CS is not helpless.

Who argued the CS is helpless? I just see it as a resource drain. If a new Zavor can be created every single melee attack, that's a lot of silver rounds or wooden arrows to make.

Again, the hypothetical is fine, but in the game environment, there would actually be idiots who would defend the CS citizens from this, even if they're normally a kill on sight to dead boys.

No doubt, I'm sure Cyber-Knights would actually be a huge help to the CS in the case like this, since they don't have ISP limits for using their psi-weapons. Much like Tolkeen this is a case where they would be glad to help out to save the public (CS military MDC stuff would be last priority of course, this is mostly to help farmers and unprotected)

How long before a vanguard caster puts a stop to it? Or some principled dragon?

Probably pretty long, since they can't do much to directly stop Zavor and would need to find a way to locate the source dimension/cast/spell. That or be one of the rare knowledgeable folk who know stuff like Anti-Magic Cloud to close the dimensional portals.

its the kind of thing PCs would put a stop to...unless they were all evil gits who have no use for the world or order.

PCs could easily have a plan to stop Zavor if they got out of hand after decimating the CS military core, perhaps forming a defensive line at the burbs and allowing non-soldiers to evacuate (which they would begin to do as the military fell apart, and could do so since Zavor are slow)

Couldn't another caster just use Close Rift and Dimensional Anchor?

Yes to first, not familiar with 2nd.

There is a PPE economics issue to consider though. Close Rift has a permanent PPE cost, and there are some cheap ways out there to open portals. The Astral Portal spell from Nightbane is way cheap, and Astral Realms can have permanent free (well, once you pay the creation point cost) portals that could at best by closed temporarily.

You ignored that I posted earlier that radar has range greater than 30 miles, listed in RUE, keeping with your assumption that it would be undebatable when I only had to check 2 books and shot a whole in it. I did not know I just cracked books and looked in the gear section (only takes 3 books to cover most of what the CS uses). With the 800 mile range they are going to quickly get a idea of where the attack is coming from(by the second or third attack) forward units will be looking for you, then by putting some forward patrols out with 200 mile radar they will locate your launch point. Guess what either you triggered a full scale attack of where you are at by a CS forward base, CS commandos show up to deal with you or they nuke you.

[Blue_Lion]

No one needs to find you, though. Couldn't another caster just use Close Rift and Dimensional Anchor?

I'm not familiar with Dimensional Anchor. Where is it found and what does it do?

As to Close Rift, the plan is not severely impacted if a small number of the rifts are closed prematurely. Some zavor will get through before it's closed and we can always open another portal. The more interesting question is how is the caster getting within 100 feet of a rift opened over a fortress city without getting shot to pieces by the city defenses?

--flatline

Basically he is talking about blocking portals from that world to rifts earth. Given that you are likely to cause lots of damage giving the lack of control over dimensional portal (Read the write up on shifter in RUE a 10th level shifter has margin of error or 50 miles.) A good dragon, wandering band of heroes (with a shifter) or the vanguard will trace your portals and find you on your planet and deal with you.

[flatline]

No one needs to find you, though. Couldn't another caster just use Close Rift and Dimensional Anchor?

I'm not familiar with Dimensional Anchor. Where is it found and what does it do?

As to Close Rift, the plan is not severely impacted if a small number of the rifts are closed prematurely. Some zavor will get through before it's closed and we can always open another portal. The more interesting question is how is the caster getting within 100 feet of a rift opened over a fortress city without getting shot to pieces by the city defenses?

--flatline

Basically he is talking about blocking portals from that world to rifts earth. Given that you are likely to cause lots of damage giving the lack of control over dimensional portal (Read the write up on shifter in RUE a 10th level shifter has margin of error or 50 miles.) A good dragon, wandering band of heroes (with a shifter) or the vanguard will trace your portals and find you on your planet and deal with you.

How does someone trace a portal back to its origin other than entering it while it's open?

How many good dragons or shifters hang around Chi-Town and are willing to expose themselves to the CS forces in order to intervene?

--flatline

[Blue_Lion]

No one needs to find you, though. Couldn't another caster just use Close Rift and Dimensional Anchor?

I'm not familiar with Dimensional Anchor. Where is it found and what does it do?

As to Close Rift, the plan is not severely impacted if a small number of the rifts are closed prematurely. Some zavor will get through before it's closed and we can always open another portal. The more interesting question is how is the caster getting within 100 feet of a rift opened over a fortress city without getting shot to pieces by the city defenses?

--flatline

Basically he is talking about blocking portals from that world to rifts earth. Given that you are likely to cause lots of damage giving the lack of control over dimensional portal (Read the write up on shifter in RUE a 10th level shifter has margin of error or 50 miles.) A good dragon, wandering band of heroes (with a shifter) or the vanguard will trace your portals and find you on your planet and deal with you.

How does someone trace a portal back to its origin other than entering it while it's open?

How many good dragons or shifters hang around Chi-Town and are willing to expose themselves to the CS forces in order to intervene?

--flatline

Again read the write up in RUE on shifters (they can reopen a tiny rifts to see where it came from then use there powers to locate it and travel to a safe spot and track you down) it kind of is what they do. The impression I get from the books is the burbs are frequented by adventures including groups with mages. The dragons or wondering bands of heroes will intervene when you flood wilderness with a threat to all living things. The best you do with a shifter (the experts on this) is a 50 mile target area so you are likely not hitting the super cities. Heck this might be seen as large threat for big dragon in Lazlo to make a move to shut it down.

[flatline]

The accuracy of Dimensional Portal is entirely dependent on the GM and can be determined in-game through experimentation if necessary.

--flatline

[Blue_Lion]

The accuracy of Dimensional Portal is entirely dependent on the GM and can be determined in-game through experimentation if necessary.

--flatline

The write up on the spell as written in RUE targets a world not a place.
The write up on the shifter in RUE goes into greater detail on accuracy.

If your GM gives greater accuracy that is a house rule not Rules as written.

[ShadowLogan]

Not sure what a Zevor is or where it is from but if it needs to breath then that caps the range. Will said creature surve being droped from near orbit?

Zavor is from Rifts Conversion Book 1 (I have the revised version, may or may not make a difference) that is converted from Palladium Fantasy (not sure where it appears here, but RCB1r its the last two pages of the book).

I'd like to point out that none of the CS's attacks will cause the duplication to begin since the CS doesn't use magic, and Zavor are still vulnerable to psionics, which the CS does use. In addition to that:

True the Zavor's growth rate is limited when dealing with the CS, however I think the OP is looking at their high level of resistance (Vampire/Werewolf level),and lack of specific CS designed equipment the troops could use on them (or part of their standard equipment).

As for Psionics, there are very few powers though that could harm them. Unless every psychic in the CS has access to Super Psionics, and coincidently has TK powers, the actual pool of effective psychics may be less unless just being a psychic allows some of their non-mental attacks to do damage (like melee), which I seriously doubt is the case.

[Blue_Lion]

Ok Now that I know where to look I know more about them. Where are people getting that they do not need to breath it says they do not eat but I do not see that they do not need air, where is that coming from. Kind of rules out the sub orbital drop if they need to breath.
The dire harpies are from one of the minion wars books If I recall do not have all my books with me. But does it really say they can fly in space?

[Shark_Force]

How does someone trace a portal back to its origin other than entering it while it's open?

there's a spell somewhere that lets you do this, iirc. or maybe it's a shifter ability.

i'd look it up now, but my book is waaaay too far away (read: about 5 feet) and i'm lazy

of course, it probably isn't very long range anyways, so good luck casting that spell in an area that's probably swarming with SAMAS...

[Blue_Lion]

How does someone trace a portal back to its origin other than entering it while it's open?

there's a spell somewhere that lets you do this, iirc. or maybe it's a shifter ability.

i'd look it up now, but my book is waaaay too far away (read: about 5 feet) and i'm lazy

of course, it probably isn't very long range anyways, so good luck casting that spell in an area that's probably swarming with SAMAS...

It is a shifter power.

power 3 pg. 121- dimensional sense.
Powers 4 and 5 will help as well.
4 is a more detailed information on travel. PG 122 of RUE. Re open rift is greater accuracy while dimentional portal is two way travel.

[flatline]

Ok Now that I know where to look I know more about them. Where are people getting that they do not need to breath it says they do not eat but I do not see that they do not need air, where is that coming from. Kind of rules out the sub orbital drop if they need to breath.
The dire harpies are from one of the minion wars books If I recall do not have all my books with me. But does it really say they can fly in space?

If zavor have no metabolism (aka "doesn't eat"), what possible benefit can they get from air?

--flatline

[Blue_Lion]

Ok Now that I know where to look I know more about them. Where are people getting that they do not need to breath it says they do not eat but I do not see that they do not need air, where is that coming from. Kind of rules out the sub orbital drop if they need to breath.
The dire harpies are from one of the minion wars books If I recall do not have all my books with me. But does it really say they can fly in space?

If zavor have no metabolism (aka "doesn't eat"), what possible benefit can they get from air?

--flatline

Well it does not say they do not eat they could sustain on some other form of ambient energy thus have a metabolism even thou they do not eat. But it never says they do not breath like some entries do. So if the default is thing eat and or breath then they need to tell you it is different not just randomly adding powers because you think they should have it and not having anything in writing to support it.

Also I do not think a using a spell to create portal will work to transport them giving the description I would think they would be immune to the magic portal you crated.

You also are operating in the mind set that they would use the magic make copies of themselves for the sake of making copies of themselves. Which does not match the right up as they would have over whelmed PF if even one survived and had magic weapon. It seams to me they multiply to a greater number than 24 or until the out number the current attackers.

Your magic fire is that a spell that produces a total elemental in nature like say wind rush or hail? If so it does not affect them.