NEMA weapons

[grandmaster z0b]

My players have found a stash of NEMA weapons: the LSR-250, LGR-360 and PR-470. They are all more or less the original versions that many CS weapons are based on and look quite similar.

How much would they sell for on the black market?

Chaos Earth lists prices (30 000 credits for the 250 and 360 and 60 000 for the 470) but I think they would go for more in Rifts earth.

[Eashamahel]

I don't know the stats of the weapons, but if they look very similar to CS weapons (and function similarly), then the price you would get for them likely varies to an extreme degree.

The person you are selling them to might think they are black market knock-offs of CS weapons, in which case you'll get less than CS prices, or think that they ARE CS weapons in which case you'll get CS prices or better if they think they are some kind of special CS weapons. If the buyer doesn't identify them as CS, then you'll likely get either mid-market prices, possibly lower than you should by how effective/powerful the weapon is due to no name recognition. If, however, the buyer can identify them as rare, pre-RIFTS earth guns, they will be worth FAR more for historical and scientific value than for use as guns.

[Killer Cyborg]

Ever see the Firefly episode with the Lassiter?
I'd run it like that, but with the CS trying to hunt down whoever had the weapon, to cover up the fact the they ripped off their gun designs.

[Eashamahel]

A good example of not getting what you should for these is how Triax weapons (in the Sourcebook 1 timeline) in North America were regularly passed over in favour of CS or Wilks, or even Norther Gun weapons all of which they are superiour to, just because people aren't familiar with Triax as a weapons maker (usually just robots and power armour). Name recognition goes a long way, as does knowing you can get parts or repairs.

[Shark_Force]

don't forget, the "neemans" are actually legendary, so if there's anything that indicates the source of the weapon, it may go up in value considerably

[glitterboy2098]

don't forget, the "neemans" are actually legendary, so if there's anything that indicates the source of the weapon, it may go up in value considerably

like production codes, registration #'s, etc. stamped on the parts of the weapon. not something the average buyer might recognize, but definite telltales.

[Eashamahel]

Likely most of the things that would determine that the weapon was pre-Rifts and NEMA wouldn't be understandable by pretty much anyone outside of the CS (in North America at least). Product codes, serial numbers, ect aren't going to mean anything without the lists and databases they were connected to, and having N.E.M.A. stamped on the side isn't likely to convince anyone not a scientist with time to study it that it's anything other than black market knock-off with a legendary name pressed into it.

[grandmaster z0b]

Well they are better in many ways: they weigh less, have better range, more payload per e-clip and have better accuracy. That alone should put the price up.

Your average black marketeer will probably reason that they are most likely pre-rifts or some sort of CS prototype as knock offs are generally lesser quality and almost never better than the original. Either way it's contraband but that never stopped the black market, if anything it puts the price up. Of course they will tell the characters that it will be difficult to sell and try to negotiate a lower price.

In the end I took the price listed in Chaos Earth and used the "Selling to the Black Market" rules in the RMB to determine how much they would actually get for them. Those rules are actually really good and it's odd they weren't re-printed in either RUE or Rifts:Black Market (unless I've missed them).

[Thinyser]

If they are better then CS arms why didn't they keep them? I suppose they could have even better weapons or are strapped for cash to repair armor or something but man I would have kept them.

[Shark_Force]

CS weapons aren't really the best around. they're quite good quality, but not the best. at least not from an adventuring perspective.

in much the same way, while the US military has excellent weapons, those weapons are seldom the best possible. they're mass produced, and are probably the most cost-efficient possible... but adventurer groups aren't looking to field the many millions of energy rifles that the CS officially has (now, whether or not you think the CS military should have so many people in their military and/or related organizations is another matter entirely, but basically... the CS standard weapons are not the best they can make, they're the best they can make for what they're willing to pay in terms of time and resources).

[Thinyser]

CS weapons aren't really the best around. they're quite good quality, but not the best. at least not from an adventuring perspective.

in much the same way, while the US military has excellent weapons, those weapons are seldom the best possible. they're mass produced, and are probably the most cost-efficient possible... but adventurer groups aren't looking to field the many millions of energy rifles that the CS officially has (now, whether or not you think the CS military should have so many people in their military and/or related organizations is another matter entirely, but basically... the CS standard weapons are not the best they can make, they're the best they can make for what they're willing to pay in terms of time and resources).

Right, all that's very true. But these weapons are better in almost all aspects. Lighter, more efficient, more accurate, possibly more powerful too... AND they're old which makes them cool. It might not be the best but if I found something that old that was still better than alot of stuff available now I'd keep it for the coolness factor alone.

[grandmaster z0b]

Just to clarify they are keeping some for personal use but the rest are getting sold for credits.

Also it's only 103 PA: so pre-Coalition War Campaign and all those better guns are not around yet. Plus Triax and Naruni are super rare in NA in my games so these guns are pretty good.

The other question is what would they get for NEMA EBA armor and a set of "Roscoe" Fire & Rescue Enhanced Body Armor?

[Shark_Force]

eh, you don't need to go naruni and triax to get better gear for adventurers.

when was the last time you saw someone desperately try to get their hands on a CS weapon when they had a wilk's laser rifle? or a NG particle beam rifle?

like i said, the CS tech is probably designed for efficiency in mass production, not so much for being the absolute best in every category. if the CS *did* design a particle beam rifle to the best of their capabilities, it would be better than NG tech. but they don't (or rather, mostly don't... i'm sure they have something in a research lab somewhere that is better in a variety of ways).

so yeah, even if it's only 103 PA, CS tech isn't really the best on the continent, it's just the most mass-produced.

[Killer Cyborg]

eh, you don't need to go naruni and triax to get better gear for adventurers.

when was the last time you saw someone desperately try to get their hands on a CS weapon when they had a wilk's laser rifle? or a NG particle beam rifle?

like i said, the CS tech is probably designed for efficiency in mass production, not so much for being the absolute best in every category. if the CS *did* design a particle beam rifle to the best of their capabilities, it would be better than NG tech. but they don't (or rather, mostly don't... i'm sure they have something in a research lab somewhere that is better in a variety of ways).

Not saying that it's the BEST, but these are arguably better than NG tech:

CTT-P40 Particle Beam Cannon
Range: 2,000'
Damage 1d6x10 MD
Payload: 40 blasts

FIWS
Particle Beam Weapon
5d6 MD per single blast, or 1d6x10 MD per double-blast.
Range: 500'
Payload: 30 single shots, or 15 double-blasts per long E-Clip.

[Thinyser]

eh, you don't need to go naruni and triax to get better gear for adventurers.

when was the last time you saw someone desperately try to get their hands on a CS weapon when they had a wilk's laser rifle? or a NG particle beam rifle?

like i said, the CS tech is probably designed for efficiency in mass production, not so much for being the absolute best in every category. if the CS *did* design a particle beam rifle to the best of their capabilities, it would be better than NG tech. but they don't (or rather, mostly don't... i'm sure they have something in a research lab somewhere that is better in a variety of ways).

Not saying that it's the BEST, but these are arguably better than NG tech:

CTT-P40 Particle Beam Cannon
Range: 2,000'
Damage 1d6x10 MD
Payload: 40 blasts

FIWS
Particle Beam Weapon
5d6 MD per single blast, or 1d6x10 MD per double-blast.
Range: 500'
Payload: 30 single shots, or 15 double-blasts per long E-Clip.

Gimme that one all day long. 40 1d6x10 blasts out to 2000' off one eclip?!?! Yep thats the bomb.

[wyrmraker]

eh, you don't need to go naruni and triax to get better gear for adventurers.

when was the last time you saw someone desperately try to get their hands on a CS weapon when they had a wilk's laser rifle? or a NG particle beam rifle?

like i said, the CS tech is probably designed for efficiency in mass production, not so much for being the absolute best in every category. if the CS *did* design a particle beam rifle to the best of their capabilities, it would be better than NG tech. but they don't (or rather, mostly don't... i'm sure they have something in a research lab somewhere that is better in a variety of ways).

Not saying that it's the BEST, but these are arguably better than NG tech:

CTT-P40 Particle Beam Cannon
Range: 2,000'
Damage 1d6x10 MD
Payload: 40 blasts

FIWS
Particle Beam Weapon
5d6 MD per single blast, or 1d6x10 MD per double-blast.
Range: 500'
Payload: 30 single shots, or 15 double-blasts per long E-Clip.

Gimme that one all day long. 40 1d6x10 blasts out to 2000' off one eclip?!?! Yep thats the bomb.

I would agree, except that the bit left out of the description is that it weighs in as 89 pounds. Clearly not a weapon for everyone.

[Killer Cyborg]

eh, you don't need to go naruni and triax to get better gear for adventurers.

when was the last time you saw someone desperately try to get their hands on a CS weapon when they had a wilk's laser rifle? or a NG particle beam rifle?

like i said, the CS tech is probably designed for efficiency in mass production, not so much for being the absolute best in every category. if the CS *did* design a particle beam rifle to the best of their capabilities, it would be better than NG tech. but they don't (or rather, mostly don't... i'm sure they have something in a research lab somewhere that is better in a variety of ways).

Not saying that it's the BEST, but these are arguably better than NG tech:

CTT-P40 Particle Beam Cannon
Range: 2,000'
Damage 1d6x10 MD
Payload: 40 blasts

FIWS
Particle Beam Weapon
5d6 MD per single blast, or 1d6x10 MD per double-blast.
Range: 500'
Payload: 30 single shots, or 15 double-blasts per long E-Clip.

Gimme that one all day long. 40 1d6x10 blasts out to 2000' off one eclip?!?! Yep thats the bomb.

I would agree, except that the bit left out of the description is that it weighs in as 89 pounds. Clearly not a weapon for everyone.

Right. I was posting a reminder, not full weapon stats. I assumed that everybody would remember that it's designed for power armor.
Although you could put that sucker on a bi-pod, and fire from a fixed position, even with normal human PS.

[Thinyser]

Still as a borg's carry weapon or as you said on a bipod or a vehicle mount it gets my vote.

[Shark_Force]

arguably better. the one is for a power armour... not sure if we have any examples of NG power armour with a built-in particle beam (or one built for a 'borg to carry) from that era yet, so it might not be built to higher standards.

the other has a 500 foot range. in the right hands, a pair of NG long pistols would be better, but that would require the appropriate skills and also 2 e-clips whereas presumably the CIWS does not.

[Killer Cyborg]

arguably better.

Yes.
I'm mentally comparing the two weapons to the NG-P7.
Both have better damage, but the FIWS has inferior range, and the other weapon is for power armor- it does 50% more damage than the NG-P7, but with a much bulkier weapon.
(Of course, it also has 4x the ammo capacity).

the other has a 500 foot range. in the right hands, a pair of NG long pistols would be better, but that would require the appropriate skills and also 2 e-clips whereas presumably the CIWS does not.

Yup.

[grandmaster z0b]

How much would they sell for on the black market?

The absolute minimum that the GM can get away with.

Why? Personally I would wait and see how it plays out and decide rather than just give them the minimum.

[Giant2005]

arguably better.

Yes.
I'm mentally comparing the two weapons to the NG-P7.
Both have better damage, but the FIWS has inferior range, and the other weapon is for power armor- it does 50% more damage than the NG-P7, but with a much bulkier weapon.
(Of course, it also has 4x the ammo capacity).

The ammo capacity isn't really relevant considering it uses a unique and incredibly large power system - without an E-clip conversion ratio, we can't really make any judgments on its efficiency.

As per the OP, I don't think you should let them sell it to the BM at all. Have a CS platoon intercept them and confiscate the weapons - with your game being set so early in the timeline, your player's loot could be the catalyst that inspired the CS's new generation of weapons.

[Aaryq]

Ever see the Firefly episode with the Lassiter?
I'd run it like that, but with the CS trying to hunt down whoever had the weapon, to cover up the fact the they ripped off their gun designs.

This.
I could see the CS having their fingers in the black market looking for things like this.

It's also been quite some time since they were used. As a GM, if I would put them into the game they would require work to make them functional again. A failed roll either ruins it or degrades its capabilities and enhances others in the pyramid of function (Range, Capacity, Damage - You can't have all 3). So if it doesn't work and someone comes in and mucks with it and fails the roll, maybe put on an additional 300' on the range but decrease the capacity or damage.

Also like the Lassiter, it might be worth more to a collector unmolested. The problem there would be finding a collector interested in it. If you're advertising to everyone you have this pre-rifts Laser Rifle, you might end up painting a pretty big target on your back from not only the CS but maybe very wealthy, very well-connected and ruthless collectors or local warlords.

IMHO it would be a better plot device than just regular rare booty.

[grandmaster z0b]

Thanks for all the ideas and feedback.

I did think about the CS implications but was thinking that it would take a few days for the CS to hear about these weapons. So they will probably get to sell them off, but then have CS agents after them. I don't want to make it too hard because it's loot from a big adventure and I think the characters deserve some reward and need some credits. Also the cache was actually in a pocket dimension where time has run slower and robots have been maintaining everything so it all works fine.

They also have some pre-Rifts technical manuals and textbooks. For all I know the characters might decide not to sell any of this stuff and Chi Town and head for some other town: Tolkeen, Lazlo, Ishpeming, Merctown, Kingsdale, Whykin are all fairly close and would have a market for these things. They will probably get less though because they won't be contraband.