To prove a point.

[say652]

Mages. A joke in Rifts. In heroes unlimited the become a force to be reckoned with, as they should be.
Psionics aesome in either environment actually. Stupid high saves for nonpsionics.

Super powers um awesome sauce.

Robots way easier to use your own designs in HU. Do books even exist to create your own power armors etc???

Love Rifts in concept and variety, in fact it plays so much more fluidly in sdc settings.

[Slight001]

in your realm.

Not my realm... not by a long shot. It's palladium books realm.

40 rounds of spray and prey at 1d4 per round only managing 1d4x10 is just pathetic. That weapon should have never made it past R&D stage 1 let along into the hands of soldiers. Its just a huge resource drain.

Do books even exist to create your own power armors etc???

there are rules for it in Source book one.

[Shark_Force]

Mages. A joke in Rifts. In heroes unlimited the become a force to be reckoned with, as they should be.

forcing 1d6 targets to make a successful dodge (vs a strike roll of 16) or be rendered completely helpless for multiple melee rounds is useful whether you're in rifts or heroes unlimited. i don't know what rules you've been playing by, but mages in rifts are crazy strong, as long as you don't have this insane fixation on dealing damage with spells. once you realize that a single spell can render multiple enemies completely useless and/or helpless, and stop trying to be a magic laser gun* you can do quite well for yourself.

* if you want a magic laser gun, however, you should be a techno-wizard, since that's kinda right up their alley.

[say652]

I didnt kniw that. Hmmmm. A saving grace for Rifts.
With half the baddies in the cb1 dealing sdc it makes them a lil useless. A lightboy and a vibroknife could kill most monsters.
Or you get monsters with hundreds (thousands) of mdc supernatural strength magic, psionics, rune weapons etc.

What happened to a good ole zombie horde being dangerous? ? A single werewolf being terrifying? ?
A dragon being more than target practice??
And dont fet me started on vampires. Lol.
I fixed them by using the megahero add on, undead vampire. Now they're awesome again.

Rifts is a great game so much to offer, just doesn't play well.

I mean to snipe one soldier you would need to inflict what 80mdc!! Good luck staying hidden while your missile rifle rains death. Unless you roll poorly for the volley.

[flatline]

Mages. A joke in Rifts.

You think so?

-flatline

[say652]

Lost to many mage characters. Shadow meld. Spotlight. Carpet of adhesion. Fires railgun. You get the idea.

[flatline]

Mages are architects and enablers, not front line troops. Don't be where the railgun is pointing. Ever.

Of course, if your GM doesn't allow you to purchase spells, your options are more limited.

--flatline

[say652]

Skill based classes, psionics and robit pilots were encouraged. I used a few different spell casters but two spells a melee. Ugh. Lol.
I started using supers, others whined it was game unbalancing but always had the coolest power armor-_- jussayin. Any who when it clicked supers had like no skills. And the gm got miffed about the back n forth that ended quick.

Right now I'm stuck on my Immortal Godling. I use super powers instead of magic. Works out Just fine.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Of course PowerSurge charged.
Desmond bio manipulation.
PowerSurge electric ray.
Desmond sticky carpet.

Then both proceeded to beat it to death.

So if a godling and a half wot could do it, says alot about. Strategy being employed everywhere. Lol

Invisibility: superior
Create deck of cards: permanent
Dagger cards
Endless deck of cards
Timeslip
Carpet of adhesion on box of cards
Teleport: box of cards onto giant
52 cards to the face (invis and timeslip dispell at this point and sixth sense of for goes off)

Sit and wait for creature to die

Need a special material? Make a deck of cards out of it beforehand. Only have time to make two... Just put them on top of a deck and edoc replicates the top card with different faces on it.

Card using magic? where?

one of the rifters. same issue as ludicrous mage i think?

Ding ding, Give sharky a treat!

Ludicrous Mage, Trickster Mage the tourist OCC and Gigga Damage
The Rifter 9 1/2
Even though it is in an optional rule book the trickster magic is usually deemed playable because many don't consider what happens when combining spells.

These do not stack....there is a limit in the name of the 52 cards in the face spell.
And 6th sense goes off 60 sec. in the time stream of the char with 6th sense, before the leathl attack.
So the use of time slip does not do anything.
And you can not T-Port anything into a person.

[say652]

Try the sdc challenge.

[Shark_Force]

I didnt kniw that. Hmmmm. A saving grace for Rifts.
With half the baddies in the cb1 dealing sdc it makes them a lil useless. A lightboy and a vibroknife could kill most monsters.
Or you get monsters with hundreds (thousands) of mdc supernatural strength magic, psionics, rune weapons etc.

What happened to a good ole zombie horde being dangerous? ? A single werewolf being terrifying? ?
A dragon being more than target practice??
And dont fet me started on vampires. Lol.
I fixed them by using the megahero add on, undead vampire. Now they're awesome again.

Rifts is a great game so much to offer, just doesn't play well.

I mean to snipe one soldier you would need to inflict what 80mdc!! Good luck staying hidden while your missile rifle rains death. Unless you roll poorly for the volley.

- many of the baddies in CB1 use the same methods humans use to deal MDC. magic, psionics, technology.
- a zombie horde is dangerous. they can use guns, albeit not well, but when you're shooting enough times that doesn't matter. they can read scrolls, which many people capable of making zombies will also be able to make. they can also just pin you down, and start taking off your armour, if you're not naturally MDC. if you are naturally MDC, they can still pin you down, and are capable of using weapons which can damage you, or they can even just suffocate you or something like that; they never get tired, you do.
- a single werewolf deals mega-damage last i checked, and is immune to most tech-based weapons.
- dragons are MDC tanks that deal mega-damage, have rapid healing (which means they don't need to spend tens of thousands of credits on armour, nor do they have to spend months healing like your superpowered characters will), and have access to both magic and psionics typically. they don't suffer from a lack of effectiveness.
- vampires can use mind control, turn into mist, heal rapidly, and are immune to most tech weapons as well. and even the non-tech weapons that work on them tend to only work to a limited extent - if they can turn to mist, they'll just leave, and you only slowed them down.

magic has plenty of advantages in rifts. a single impervious to energy wins a fight against many tech-based opponents, for example. armour of ithan can change your group from needing tens of thousands of credits in repairs per fight to nothing, if you use it carefully. a magic net can end a fight in a single action if it hits, and if it doesn't hit you've at least cost 1-6 enemies an action. a humble blinding flash can render an entire area of enemies useless while you pick them off, easy prey because they can't hit or avoid being hit effectively. there are so many amazing spells in the setting, and only a comparatively tiny amount do damage.

you're focusing on the wrong thing. you want magic to be amazing at nuking, and also amazing at everything else. every system of which i am aware that has that being possible, if you were to rank classes by power, you find that the magic classes are inevitably at the top of the heap. rifts is somewhat different in that you actually *trade* something for your massive utility, defensive strength, and general superiority in every other area of the game than blowing stuff up. even *with* magic sucking for damage (comparatively; bearing in mind that the more supplements get added, the better magic gets in general, including dealing damage) it is still generally stronger than everything else.

your mages may get blown up easily. i've played a number of them, and they do just fine, and i would even say tend to be among the most effective characters in a group (in fact, since some of the more recent updates, i'd say they even tend to be more effective in combat as well). mages are defensive powerhouses, and can spread that to their allies. they're also by far the best at crowd control, solving most non-combat problems, and about equally good at killing stuff (on account of they can wear body armour and use a laser rifle just like anyone else, and most of the extremely superior methods of killing stuff tends to be ludicrously resource-intensive; yes, a missile barrage does better damage. good luck being able to throw a missile barrage at everything you meet, though).

[Mack]

I used a few different spell casters but two spells a melee. Ugh. Lol.

This is incorrect.

RUE, p189:
- Spells from levels 1-5 consume a single action.
- Spells from levels 6-10 consume two actions.
- Spells from levels 11-15 consume three actions.

As a good alternative, I endorse the optional PPE Channeling method as presented in the Rifter. A mage may cast 5 PPE / level in a single action. Thus a 25 PPE spell takes a level 1 mage 5 actions, but a level 5 mage only 1 action.

[say652]

Warlocks and Temporal types are the best I've read about.
I am a huge fan of Phase Mystic also.
In comics the mages are always top tier heroes. To me Rifts tech puts the average soldier ahead of a mage. Imo

[flatline]

Warlocks and Temporal types are the best I've read about.
I am a huge fan of Phase Mystic also.
In comics the mages are always top tier heroes. To me Rifts tech puts the average soldier ahead of a mage. Imo

Why isn't the mage taking advantage of the same tech as the soldier?

--flatline

[Shark_Force]

Warlocks and Temporal types are the best I've read about.
I am a huge fan of Phase Mystic also.
In comics the mages are always top tier heroes. To me Rifts tech puts the average soldier ahead of a mage. Imo

mages also use rifts tech.

then they add magic to the mix.

imo one of the things i find *most* frustrating about rifts is that the average soldier in a fight against a mage where the mage doesn't use magic is actually about equal. imo, the soldier should have bonuses to strike and dodge (and, depending on what sort of training, parry) beyond the mage, when using conventional combat. the soldier should probably also have a better grasp of things like using cover and evasive maneuvers (so, for example, while it might take an 8+ to shoot a regular person, a soldier might need a 10+ to even force them to dodge, and might be even harder to hit than usual while in cover). as it stands, presuming the mage has a WP in the weapon and at least basic hand-to-hand, the only difference that is likely to exist is from attributes, which are just as likely to be good for the mage as for the soldier.

well, that and possibly armour, but if the mage is deciding to use conventional combat it is likely they have a spare suit of heavy armour (since they have multiple ways of separating a person from their armour without damaging the armour).

[Zer0 Kay]

Invisibility:superior
Create deck of cards: permanent
Dagger cards
Endless deck of cards
Timeslip
Carpet of adhesion on box of cards
Teleport: box of cards onto giant
52 cards to the face (invis and timeslip dispell at this point and sixth sense of for goes off)

Sit and wait for creature to die

Need a special material? Make a deck of cards out of it beforehand. Only have time to make two... Just put them on top of a deck and edoc replicates the top card with different faces on it.

Card using magic? where?

one of the rifters. same issue as ludicrous mage i think?

Ding ding, Give sharky a treat!

Ludicrous Mage, Trickster Mage the tourist OCC and Gigga Damage
The Rifter 9 1/2
Even though it is in an optional rule book the trickster magic is usually deemed playable because many don't consider what happens when combining spells.

These do not stack....there is a limit in the name of the 52 cards in the face spell.
And 6th sense goes off 60 sec. in the time stream of the char with 6th sense, before the leathl attack.
So the use of time slip does not do anything.
And you can not T-Port anything into a person.

sorry meant onto, using texting keyboard, get weird typos sometimes.
Are you telling me there are no other spells where the name says one thing but it does more or less?
A munchkin would by pass the name of the spell which is just that, a name, and read the spell which says it launches the whole deck. Now since I'm not completely munchkin, only 1/8 on my fathers side of the family , I wouldn't launch an infinite deck in one mêlée. So NOW I apply the name of the spell and figure it launches 52 cards per attack with three attacks oer turn.

If you go based solely on the name it creates paradoxes in the wording of the spell which is more important. If the caster happens to be playing trionfi then he has a 78 card deck or Minchiate with 96 card deck or God forbid the trickster mage be into a CCG like magic which has "standard" deck sizes but in casual play font have a limit to the number of cards in the deck. The spell wording says something like (don't have my book at work, but ill check when I get home) laugh a deck unerringly into an opponents face. It does not specify a deck is 52 cards in the spell not does the class stipulate that they only deal with 52 card decks or our modern card poker suits maybe they're cup, coin, rod, shield and sword for a deck of 50 with no face cards. Or maybe its multiple standard decks to make one deck and everyone in rifts is pissed off because the standard game is Mao and no one has learned all of the rules yet and can't talk about it because then they'd have to draw extra cards the next game... Dang, I just talked about it, hope none of the people I play Mao with are on these forums.

BTW timeslop like inc:s cancels when you do something offensive. Sixth sense goes off before something life threatening happens. Placing the box of cards on someone is not offensive, therefore placement doesn't set any of the activations off. So now that the non offensive box of cards is on the target you can wait a little bit and then cast the spell. Sure sixth sense is going to go off but the person won't be able to figure out what the heck they're supposed to be dodging until its to late, even then I think the spell can only be dodged by something silly like a 10 with a -20 modifier.

[Zer0 Kay]

Warlocks and Temporal types are the best I've read about.
I am a huge fan of Phase Mystic also.
In comics the mages are always top tier heroes. To me Rifts tech puts the average soldier ahead of a mage. Imo

Why isn't the mage taking advantage of the same tech as the soldier?

--flatline

For fear of interference?

[flatline]

Warlocks and Temporal types are the best I've read about.
I am a huge fan of Phase Mystic also.
In comics the mages are always top tier heroes. To me Rifts tech puts the average soldier ahead of a mage. Imo

Why isn't the mage taking advantage of the same tech as the soldier?

--flatline

For fear of interference?

You should search for Killer Cyborg's thread about how said interference is so minimal that all mages should ignore it and wear EBA anyways.

--flatline

[Zer0 Kay]

Warlocks and Temporal types are the best I've read about.
I am a huge fan of Phase Mystic also.
In comics the mages are always top tier heroes. To me Rifts tech puts the average soldier ahead of a mage. Imo

Why isn't the mage taking advantage of the same tech as the soldier?

--flatline

For fear of interference?

You should search for Killer Cyborg's thread about how said interference is so minimal that all mages should ignore it and wear EBA anyways.

--flatline

That would require me looking for ki... Oh bicycle...

[Dog_O_War]

You could called-shot it in the head from long-range with an MD-capable rifle as any character with hth assassin and death-blow. It would take less than 20 shots to hit that critical.

Alternatively you could just land a Death's Head Transport on top of said giant, pinning him and just starve him to death, as the object is simply too heavy for him to lift, and since he's pinned, he can't attack it, or move. I mean, at that point you could get nasty too and just pipe concrete through a tube into him and solidify him.

Then there's Rifting him to an SDC world; a single nuke there pretty much ends him (though that's elaborate and expensive).

Alternatively (ie: the Russian way) you Rift/teleport something (re: lava) to him and bury him in it.

There's lots of ways, and not all of them require magic (or nukes/equivalent).

[Zer0 Kay]

You could called-shot it in the head from long-range with an MD-capable rifle as any character with hth assassin and death-blow. It would take less than 20 shots to hit that critical.

Alternatively you could just land a Death's Head Transport on top of said giant, pinning him and just starve him to death, as the object is simply too heavy for him to lift, and since he's pinned, he can't attack it, or move. I mean, at that point you could get nasty too and just pipe concrete through a tube into him and solidify him.

Then there's Rifting him to an SDC world; a single nuke there pretty much ends him (though that's elaborate and expensive).

Alternatively (ie: the Russian way) you Rift/teleport something (re: lava) to him and bury him in it.

There's lots of ways, and not all of them require magic (or nukes/equivalent).

sure about the nukes? Maybe that's what created the radioactive dragon in PFRPG