why is rifts so anti super??

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my poll to gather info and process why

Scared of that which is different much??
3
9%
Because I just don't want to ruin nonexistent game balance.
7
21%
I didn't come up with the idea so its wrong.
0
No votes
I just like to insult people with my superior intellect.
5
15%
I like originality and support random craziness from other settings because it keeps the game from getting stale.
18
55%
 
Total votes: 33

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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by Thinyser »

say652 wrote:In the megahero section.

Not everybody wants to play a flying superhuman battering ram thats nigh invulnerable.
Characters such as these often become boring and not much fun to play.....

Which means I have to really put the hurt on the Godling in my group... to make it fun! :twisted:
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by Hotrod »

EDIT: I wrote this before KC posted his reply, but had a connection issue that kept it from posting until quite a bit later, sorry if parts of this overlap KC's excellent reply.

Rappanui wrote:You want a comparison:?
fine.
The Glitterboy
The Baby Dragon hatchling
the Full Conversion combat Cyborg
The New post SOT Cyberknight.

All have the same potential as most superheroes. things only Get "crazy" When you add in net powers or add in cosmic powers AU/AGG/ etc and most still pale in comparison to the Cosmoknight!

The Glitterboy has limited ammunition. It doesn't heal damage automatically; rather, it must be repaired, and only a few places can repair or refurbish GB's, typically at enormous cost. It also requires the pilot to be physically inside the armor, and its only weapon system requires the suit to be immobile.

The Baby Dragon Hatchling can be a potent character, no doubt. That said, hatchlings are at something of a disadvantage if played properly, in that they tend to be naive, selfish, arrogant, ignorant of the world, and overconfident. They're also feared and hated by some pretty powerful forces, including most Psi-Stalkers and the CS, NGR, and FQ. They have very limited skills (Hello, language barriers) and no beginning spell knowledge.

The combat cyborg is enormously expensive and difficult to repair and deals with the same ammunition issues as the GB. Plus there's the whole losing your humanity issue, and most combat borgs don't blend into an ordinary crowd.

The new-flavor cyber-knight is pretty tough in combat and often has some nice psychic abilities. However, many of those abilities are limited by his ISP, and many of his combat abilities are opponent-dependent. Ironically, despite their reputation as demon-hunters, they're comparatively weak against the supernatural. I assume this is a by-product of the game design choice to give them more abilities vs the CS for the SoT campaign.
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by flatline »

Hotrod wrote:The Baby Dragon Hatchling can be a potent character, no doubt. That said, hatchlings are at something of a disadvantage if played properly, in that they tend to be naive, selfish, arrogant, ignorant of the world, and overconfident. They're also feared and hated by some pretty powerful forces, including most Psi-Stalkers and the CS, NGR, and FQ. They have very limited skills (Hello, language barriers) and no beginning spell knowledge.


Thanks for the chuckle (see bold text above).

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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by say652 »

Aps:plasma. Buha. Death by snowballs, or. We just kept throwing the ice out of our mixed drinks at him until he died. Lmfao.
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by Hotrod »

flatline wrote:
Hotrod wrote:The Baby Dragon Hatchling can be a potent character, no doubt. That said, hatchlings are at something of a disadvantage if played properly, in that they tend to be naive, selfish, arrogant, ignorant of the world, and overconfident. They're also feared and hated by some pretty powerful forces, including most Psi-Stalkers and the CS, NGR, and FQ. They have very limited skills (Hello, language barriers) and no beginning spell knowledge.


Thanks for the chuckle (see bold text above).

--flatline

Individually, psi-stalkers aren't super potent, but when the clan or posse gets together, it's another story. I wasn't suggesting a single psi-stalker is something most dragons have to worry about.
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by Mech-Viper Prime »

Ultimately it's up to gm to control his/her game, sure you could throw out a the worse case example for all to judge but that doesn't show any thing besides the fact that the character is more a design to disrupt game play then anything else.

I have dealt with several players and their characters, that could be classified as game breakers, but yet they never did, but yet add more to game because of their play style and characters.
In the hands of the right player a normal vagabond could be a game breaker, if a gm allows this to happen.
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Rappanui wrote:prior to PU, the only way for a superhero to have 700 MDC like a glitterboy is to play with Invulnerability, or Force field powers.


Not exactly.
Part of it depends on how your GM allows powers to stack. For example, if you have 100 MDC from Extraordinary PE, and the GM allows that to stack with the 600 MDC from APS: Metal, that would be 700 MDC right there.
Due to the wording, I could see a GM ruling that the 600 MDC from APS: Metal as replacing the normal MDC while transformed (although I've never seen a GM rule that way), but even in that case, you're left with a character that has 600 MDC, and regenerates 1d4x10 MDC per minute for free... as opposed to the Glitter Boy, which can only be repaired in certain high-tech locations, and which costs CR 8,000-40,000 per 10 MDC repaired (depending on whether your GM counts it as a robot or as power armor).

And there are other combos you could use to beat 700 MDC. The Growth power could get insane if you concentrated on maxing your PE, for instance.

Prior to 2nd Edition, there were HUGE caps on attributes that meant most pcs saw no benefit past 30.


Got an official page number and quote for that?

He still has to spend money on repairs (unless he plans to fight naked all the time).


Who does? A guy with super powers?
That depends on the powers.
IF he's invulnerable, he CAN fight naked. Or wearing a cheap loincloth.
IF he's got Control Force Fields, then he isn't going to get his armor hurt even if he does wear it, and even if he has to get it repaired, body armor is cheaper to repair than power armor or robots (whichever the GB qualifies for in your game).
IF he's got APS: Stone or Metal, again, no real repair bills. Automatic regeneration.
IF he's got Copy Physical Structure, same thing.
IF he's got Bio-Armor, same thing.
IF he's got Force Aura, same thing.

The repair bills for somebody with decent powers vs. a Glitter Boy are going to be drastically lower.

He still has to eat, Drink, ****, Sleep, (unless hes' a mega without those abilities).


So?

He still Suffers from Technological or social penalties.


Not if they're indigenous to Rifts Earth.

But yeah... if they're from HU Earth, then their Mechanical Engineer and Electrical Engineer skills will suffer.
Scary. :|

I get the impression that you're trying to post evidence to support the unwritten argument of "Yeah, well.... Guys with super-powers aren't completely unstoppable!", but nobody ever said that they were completely unstoppable. That's not the discussion.
The discussion is how they stack up to the characters of Rifts Earth, and as a rule, they are significantly more powerful.
Even with your Glitter Boy comparison, you neglect the very important factor that many characters with super powers could ALSO end up piloting a Glitter Boy. Especially if they have Mechano-Link.

I mean Seriously. How unbalancing is ANY super when another super is playing an ADAROK FLYING MOUNTAIN. or any other RCC or PCC or OCC from Atlantis?


Instead of breaking this comparison down just yet, I'll answer your question with a question:
Can an Adarok Flying Mountain nova for 10,000 MD to everything in a 100' radius?

take a look at the Golgans, with their "mutants" with all Heightened hearing, seight, Vision and touch poiwers, are no longer the top dog species in phaseworld.


Phaseworld is a different setting from Rifts Earth.

Most SUPERS are only as effective as a regular Super soldier by rifts standards aka crazy and Juicer.


1. Do you have a link to the survey you did to determine the average super-powered character's power level in Rifts?
2. Even assuming that your statement is correct, I'll point out that Juicers DIE to get that powerful, and Crazies go insane. Their power comes at a price- super powers generally don't. And even when they do, the price isn't nearly as steep.

Most APS characters are only as scary as a highly skilled dragon type pc.


Again, can a dragon explode for 10,000 MD to everything in a 100' radius?
Because I'm not really seeing the comparison.
And, again, dragons are actively hunted by a number of powerful forces on Rifts Earth. Beings with super powers generally aren't, and they can't be tracked by psi-stalkers like dragons can.
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Let me clarify:
I don't mind super powers as a rule when I run. I have played many super-powered characters, and I have run games for many super-powered characters.
I'm only in the conversation to rebut the whole "But super powers aren't unbalancing at all! They're just like any other Rifts character..." kind of talk, because that talk is quite simply incorrect.

Super Powers can be very unbalancing.

For example, there was the time where the PCs used APS: Fire, a burster, and a mage, to destroy the Duluth Hive.
Sure, the Rifts characters helped... but it was the HU character that did most of the heavy lifting.
These were book-legal characters, in a Palladium-written adventure, and it changed the face of the game world to such an extent that the Siege on Tolkeen never even happened in our campaign world, because the CS was still wondering what the heck took out Duluth.
That's not balanced.

If you don't LIKE balance, and if you want your characters to be able to radically alter the game world to that extent, that's absolutely fine.
But don't pretend for a moment that it's balanced with the average (or even high-end) characters from Rifts Earth.
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:Ultimately it's up to gm to control his/her game, sure you could throw out a the worse case example for all to judge but that doesn't show any thing besides the fact that the character is more a design to disrupt game play then anything else.


Not really.
Take a character with Cloaking and Energy Absorption, and suddenly most of the CS can't touch you. And that's just two powers- most supers have more than that.
It's not that super-powered characters are necessarily unbalancing, but they frequently are.
That's why all the best munchkin builds take use super powers.

I have dealt with several players and their characters, that could be classified as game breakers, but yet they never did, but yet add more to game because of their play style and characters.
In the hands of the right player a normal vagabond could be a game breaker, if a gm allows this to happen.


It'd have to be just the RIGHT player, in the right situation, though.
You don't have to go out of your way as a GM to adjust your scenarios to avoid a Vagabond breaking the game on accident.
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by say652 »

My rule for ex:pe. Hp&sdc=mdc. Its fair.

It says in the power description of aps:metal/stone that it isn't added to sdc. Thay those numbers are the total for the power.
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by flatline »

It's hard to predict what kinds of things will be "game breaking".

I once had a GM declare that Bend Light would never be allowed in his game again after I spent the evening playing a character that he provided to me who had that power.

In my experience, GMs tend to ban or nerf psionics more than anything else (specifically Sixth Sense and Astral Projection).

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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by say652 »

I unfortunately follow the as written rule. Hence my dislike of psionics and going easy on the shafted by the system mages.
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by say652 »

I am using Heroes Unlimited 2nd edition for my creations and the Blackvault.
30 was the cap for normals.
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

say652 wrote:It says in the power description of aps:metal/stone that it isn't added to sdc. Thay those numbers are the total for the power.


Ah, so it does!
Still stacks with armor and aura powers, though.
Also, Growth should still work.
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by say652 »

Aps:metal and Growth is clearly stated as a no go in the combining super powers catergory.

Suitable examples.
Aps:metal+Supernatural Strength.
Minimum ps70

Aps:metal+Gravity manipulation.

Aps:metal+spin at high velocity.
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

say652 wrote:Aps:metal and Growth is clearly stated as a no go in the combining super powers catergory.


How so?
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by Thinyser »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
say652 wrote:Aps:metal and Growth is clearly stated as a no go in the combining super powers catergory.


How so?

I'm wondering that as well. I just reread both powers and neither excludes the other and they are both simply major powers.
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by say652 »

Both alter a characters physical structure. Page 74 of heroes unlimited 2nd edition has a list and explanation as to why.
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by Damian Magecraft »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
say652 wrote:Aps:metal and Growth is clearly stated as a no go in the combining super powers catergory.


How so?
HU2: Page 74 halfway down the first column.
Note: Two powers that alter the characters physical structure can not be used simultaneously. This includes such physical altering powers as Growth, Shrink, Bio-Armor, Body Weapons, Alter Limbs, Alter Facial Features, & Physical Stature, Animal Metamorphosis, Lycanthropy, Multiple Being/Selves, Tentacles, Stretching, and all Alter Physical Structure powers.
(Emphasis theirs)
It should be noted that this rule invalidates multiple NPCs...
Also it should be noted that the HU:GMG on pages 9 and 10 in the Q&A (last question on page 9 second column) states its ok to ignore those restrictions if you (the GM) so choose.
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by Thinyser »

Damian Magecraft wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
say652 wrote:Aps:metal and Growth is clearly stated as a no go in the combining super powers catergory.


How so?
HU2: Page 74 halfway down the first column.
Note: Two powers that alter the characters physical structure can not be used simultaneously. This includes such physical altering powers as Growth, Shrink, Bio-Armor, Body Weapons, Alter Limbs, Alter Facial Features, & Physical Stature, Animal Metamorphosis, Lycanthropy, Multiple Being/Selves, Tentacles, Stretching, and all Alter Physical Structure powers.
(Emphasis theirs)
It should be noted that this rule invalidates multiple NPCs...
Also it should be noted that the HU:GMG on pages 9 and 10 in the Q&A (last question on page 9 second column) states its ok to ignore those restrictions if you (the GM) so choose.

That makes some sense on some of those combined. Like Growth and Shrink couldn't be used together. But a lot of those it makes no sense that they cannot be used at the same time... Tentacles and Stretching? Really? No rubbery tentacles eh? :roll: Glad they had some sense and made that rule optional in the HUGMG :lol:
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by say652 »

Well then according to the gmg. Snit just got real!!
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Damian Magecraft wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
say652 wrote:Aps:metal and Growth is clearly stated as a no go in the combining super powers catergory.


How so?
HU2: Page 74 halfway down the first column.
Note: Two powers that alter the characters physical structure can not be used simultaneously. This includes such physical altering powers as Growth, Shrink, Bio-Armor, Body Weapons, Alter Limbs, Alter Facial Features, & Physical Stature, Animal Metamorphosis, Lycanthropy, Multiple Being/Selves, Tentacles, Stretching, and all Alter Physical Structure powers.
(Emphasis theirs)
It should be noted that this rule invalidates multiple NPCs...
Also it should be noted that the HU:GMG on pages 9 and 10 in the Q&A (last question on page 9 second column) states its ok to ignore those restrictions if you (the GM) so choose.


For that matter, p. 74 of HU2 also states:
The player and Game Master should use common sense to determine whether or not two different super abilities can be used at the same time.

That right there lets players and GMs over-rule restrictions that don't make sense.

Furthermore, the very next part is (underline added):
For example, a superbeing could not use Underwater Water Abilities and dive into the water and expect to use Alter Physical Structure: Fire. No way! Flaming stone or metal men are no problem, but flaming ice or flaming water is impossible. If two powers are not compatible, each works normally, but the two can NOT be active at the same time.

That right there tells us that it's "no problem" to have APS: Fire and APS: Stone (or metal) going at the same time, in direct contradiction to the later rule that Damien mentioned.

And the entire passage finishes with:
As always, Game Masters should use their judgment on which powers can be overlapped or combined in intelligent and reasonable ways. They have the authority to modify the exact effects... or outlaw such unique combos completely.

Again reinforcing the GM's final judgment on which power combos work and which don't.
Meaning that ultimately it's the GM's call, and always has been.

Besides, the claim was that "Until Powers Unlimited" came out, it wasn't possible for a hero to have 700+ MDC without force fields or Invulnerability, and even if the HU2 rule was hard and fast when it came out, that claim still wasn't true.
Because the HU2 GMG negated it being a hard rule, and HU1 didn't include that rule at all (iirc).
So at best, the claim should have been "for a while, after HU2 came out, but before the HU2 GMG came out..."
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by Nightmask »

Rappanui wrote:hero system is the only game that allows you to have both shrinking and growth active at the same time..


Well it's technically possible in the classic Marvel RPG, but only if you're using different types (say shrinking is by reducing the space between atoms while growth is from adding more atoms).
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by say652 »

Grow big or small.

I could see using shrinking to lighten your weight if thats how your Shrink works but, even though 70' tall I'm still gonna apply the disadvantages of the shrinking power. Like deal 1 sdc from most attacks etc. You would basically be a giant balloon. Lol
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by Nightmask »

Rappanui wrote:ah yes, the ol' atomic dispersal thing.... i don't think even marvel allows it.


It does, although the question is how many GM would let you use two different methods so as to pull off a stunt like shrink yourself down using Atomic Collapse then Enlarge yourself with Atomic Gain while still maintaining the shrinking. However it's quite the valid way of dealing with someone else inflicting one effect and trying to use the other to counter, but you'll naturally get the kind of bizarre results suggested here since the one effect isn't the proper counter for the other.
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by say652 »

Now if your Shrink didnt reduce mass.

Um you could walk aroun max Growth strength and sdc but you would weigh several tons.

A little fine tuning it could work. Thats actually scary combined with supernatural strength.

Several thousand sdc.
Supernatural Strength over 200.
O.o
Yea you'd weigh ten tons but O.o
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by flatline »

I guess I can kind of see why the rule would exist, but that rule eliminates some really cool character concepts.

For instance, we had a recurring antagonist that had APS:Metal and APS:Liquid at the same time. I think he also had either Energy Resistance or Energy Absorption, but don't really know (having never seen the character sheet and all).

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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

flatline wrote:I guess I can kind of see why the rule would exist, but that rule eliminates some really cool character concepts.


Agreed. Which is probably why it's not a hard rule.

For instance, we had a recurring antagonist that had APS:Metal and APS:Liquid at the same time. I think he also had either Energy Resistance or Energy Absorption, but don't really know (having never seen the character sheet and all).
--flatline


Cool. Like APS: Mercury.
Give him Shape Change, and he's the T-1000.
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by say652 »

I guess I will have to case by case basis this one.
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by Thinyser »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
flatline wrote:I guess I can kind of see why the rule would exist, but that rule eliminates some really cool character concepts.


Agreed. Which is probably why it's not a hard rule.

For instance, we had a recurring antagonist that had APS:Metal and APS:Liquid at the same time. I think he also had either Energy Resistance or Energy Absorption, but don't really know (having never seen the character sheet and all).
--flatline


Cool. Like APS: Mercury.
Give him Shape Change, and he's the T-1000.

I was thinking the exact same thing. Needs Body Weaponry too. For the swords and pry-bar hands. Shapechanger allows for horns and claws but doesn't say about other things like these man made tools. So that 3 major and 1 minor (if you say that shapechanger does not offer blades and pry-bars). T-1000 also had perfect voice mimicry (Shapechanger only offers +15% to that skill) So PU3 Vocalization (another minor). They could run really fast, but not 220 MPH, so not sure this can be matched with super powers.
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by say652 »

Make him Pink with a high pitched voice. Lol.
Majin 1000.
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by Thinyser »

Rappanui wrote:um.. APS: Mercury already includes the body weaponry thing.
and it already does most of shapeshifting..
Thats only partly true. Yes you get body weaponry but you do not get any sort of "shapeshifting" at least not able to mimic another person. Also with APS: Liquid and APS: Metal you get much more SDC and the AR and invulnerability is better. Yes you are using 2 major slots but IMO it would be worth it to take these 2 rather than APS Mercury. But regardless, if you want the ability to morph into the shape of another specific individual you need the major power Shapeshifter stacked with either APS: Mercury or stacked with the 2*.

*EDIT: Of course you can have this as your only major power but the point was to make a very hard to destroy liquid metal mimic so that's why I said you have to stack it. Just wanted to clarify that before somebody thinks I mean that one or more of the APS is a prerequisite to take Shapeshifter. ;)
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by say652 »

Aps:liquid+Aps:metal since the are being used combined add in the sdc from both. Lose the water behemoth abilities. Keep the awesome Ar.
Lose the invulnerable to physical attacks.
Weight times seven. Speed half. Keep the strength bonus.
Vulnerability ex ps& superhuman strength 1/2 or none supernatural strength 1/2 or 1/4.
1/2 damage energy or none.
Liquid metal blasts 1D6+1D6 per level. Range 300 feet.

The being is also able to parry weapons barehanded at normal parry bonuses. And of course as a liquid able to flow seep escape etc.

Special attack. Drown called shot -6 flow into the mouth and nose of victim causing death in 3D4 melees vs normal size targets. Solidify in lungs of giant size ones all attacks inflict double damage from the inside out.

As the metal is liquid creating hard weapons is not possible.


Aps:Liquid Metal.

*bows*
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by Thinyser »

say652 wrote:Aps:liquid+Aps:metal since the are being used combined add in the sdc from both. Lose the water behemoth abilities. Keep the awesome Ar.
Lose the invulnerable to physical attacks.
Weight times seven. Speed half. Keep the strength bonus.
Vulnerability ex ps& superhuman strength 1/2 or none supernatural strength 1/2 or 1/4.
1/2 damage energy or none.
Liquid metal blasts 1D6+1D6 per level. Range 300 feet.

The being is also able to parry weapons barehanded at normal parry bonuses. And of course as a liquid able to flow seep escape etc.

Special attack. Drown called shot -6 flow into the mouth and nose of victim causing death in 3D4 melees vs normal size targets. Solidify in lungs of giant size ones all attacks inflict double damage from the inside out.

As the metal is liquid creating hard weapons is not possible.


Aps:Liquid Metal.

*bows*
Kokura sami senai.
I don't agree with the "lose invulnerability from physical attacks". Thats part of being liquid. If you're gonna say no body-weaponry because they are always liquid then they shouldn't be penalized by losing their resistance to damage from kinetic weapons.
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by say652 »

I increased the water bolt. And changed up the invulnerabilities. I was also driving then shopping.
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Rappanui wrote:if you want impossible to destroy: Aps: Mercury and Self Detonation.


Nice combo.
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by Thinyser »

Rappanui wrote:if you want impossible to destroy: Aps: Mercury and Self Detonation. read those powers... and see why killing the mercury guy has now become nearly impossible.

are you talking about Self Explosion in PU3? If so it doesn't really make APS Mercury "nearly impossible to kill" as they still take full damage from fire, heat, electricity, lasers, light attacks, psionics and magic and Self Explosion does nothing to alter this.

Basically you took what they could already withstand very well (explosions do only 10% to APS Mercury) and made them take no damage from it. Not a game changer there IMO. :-?
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by eliakon »

Rappanui wrote:... there's no weakness to fire and heat with this combo.. and even lasers and light attacks have to hit it (over the AR) to avoid passing through it. Also, there's also the self detonation to just splatter and explode on people in Decorative and creative ways.

So use something else to kill it. I would suggest Psi or Magic, but a nice Phase Beam would be nasty as well. And if its in a MDC world (like rifts....the topic of this thread, so I am assuming its in Rifts not HU) then AR doesn't even come into it.
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by Thinyser »

Rappanui wrote:... there's no weakness to fire and heat with this combo.. and even lasers and light attacks have to hit it (over the AR) to avoid passing through it. Also, there's also the self detonation to just splatter and explode on people in Decorative and creative ways.

How do you get that? The APS Mercury says it takes full damage from those attacks (and yes direct attacks like lasers) have to bypass the AR but that's no different than normal. Adding the Self-exploding power does allow you to blow up and take people out but that does not mean that the APS mercury character that can also explode cannot be destroyed by the means I listed. Also kinetic weapons (other than shrapnel) still do half damage to APS Mercury and this might (if you interpret them as "high speed impacts) be halved again to 1/4 damage from the Self-Exploding ability but that is not immune to kinetic damage as is APS liquid. Personally I think that "high speed impacts" are referring to things similar the falling damage that it stated in that same sentence, so it would be things where either the character is traveling at high speed 40+mph and impacts a larger object or is hit by a large object moving at high speeds. Not bullets or railgun rounds. Those are piercing weapons not "impacts" IMO. But as I said even if you rule that all kinetic damage is halved twice down to 1/4th its still taking some damage from regular punches, kicks, swords, knives, bullets, etc. and FULL damage from the list I mention above.

NOT in any way "nearly impossible" to kill.
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by eliakon »

Rappanui wrote:any attack that could kill it would splatter him and He'd be impossible to damage with such a weapon while he reforms. meanwhile , he could concievably still attack you with his splatter while it detonates. That is why it's nearly invincible.
also, I think the pc I had with this combo had some other powers that helped, but i have an example here :
http://shadowpalladium.wikispaces.com/Kilocrash
Mind you this is the NPC version of this character. The Original Version was much less scary :)

You'd have to wittle him down with attacks that did under 50 MD before he splatters and reforms. This version of the character is designed to trash/Kill entire armies.

Or simply use attacks that wouldn't affect it. The usual tool box for dealing with the "Uber-unkillable" seems to be useful here. Magic, Psi, and of course stuff like Nerve Gas.....
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by Thinyser »

Rappanui wrote:any attack that could kill it would splatter him and He'd be impossible to damage with such a weapon while he reforms. meanwhile , he could concievably still attack you with his splatter while it detonates. That is why it's nearly invincible.
also, I think the pc I had with this combo had some other powers that helped, but i have an example here :
http://shadowpalladium.wikispaces.com/Kilocrash
Mind you this is the NPC version of this character. The Original Version was much less scary :)

You'd have to wittle him down with attacks that did under 50 MD before he splatters and reforms. This version of the character is designed to trash/Kill entire armies.
Maybe you haven't looked at the power recently you seem to think that ANY attack that does more than 50 points of damage will cause them to splatter. That is not the case.

It is only explosions that deal more than 50 points of damage in a single blow that make APS Mercury "blow apart". Heat, fire, light, and lasers are NOT explosions and they all do full damage.

Anybody could pretty easily whittle him down with a wilks laser from 550 feet and he couldn't do much about it since his max blast radius is 500' and he only can do that if he goes critical mass and risks losing his self explosion ability forever. Alternately I could zap him with an ATL-7 and have him dead in a few actions. Even though its a BIG laser its still not an explosion so he would not splatter. I could do this with ion beam weapons (electricity does full damage), plasma weapons (heat/fire does full damage), and most likely particle beams since they are not considered kinetic and most GM's would lump them in with lasers and such.

If I wanted to use psionics I could pop a TK force field bubble around him and pyrokinesis him to death real quick (again no explosion so no splatter), and I could do this without entering his normal explode self range so he could go critical mass and get me (range wise) but it takes more than a minute to do that and he would probably be dead by then. Alternately Mind bolt or a few other options would do the job and keep me at a safe distance too.

Magic? Well there is too many ways to count I won't even bother listing any.

Near unkillable this character is NOT. Cool yes, Fun to play? probably a blast (excuse the pun). Hard to kill? I would say about a 5.5 or 6 out of 10 for difficulty in RIFTS and about a 7.5 or 8 out of 10 in HU universe (because of the AR and the few high powered energy weapons).
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by Thinyser »

If you are gonna add in that "by the way" he has this power and that power and say that AR applies in Rifts and that lasers dont hurt him because all they do is heat (even though heat resistance nor laser resistance are part of APS Mercury or Self Explosion) then its pretty pointless to debate. I'm pretty sure its quite clear that your original statement "if you want impossible to destroy: Aps: Mercury and Self Detonation. read those powers... and see why killing the mercury guy has now become nearly impossible." is simply not true.
Feel free to carry on bending rules and adding powers, but I see no point in continuing to counter these "arguments".
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by wyrmraker »

Rappanui wrote:the AR would still apply for his Liquid body.. And he has Liquification, which further offers total immunity..Plus, this guy is a Mega Immortal. your ATL is not going to cut it... You'll just heat him up (since that was lasers do) and he'll scatter, Reform... liquify, KABOOM...
And he has spiral. which lets him form tornados and other horribly fun things. I don't think you'll have ANY line of sight to attack him within anything but Short Visual Range! . and as a valid power stunt.. he could turn into Explosive rain liquifiying himself,using spiral to scatter himself and then exploding all over everyone he's landed on.

The Armor Rating would be inapplicable in Rifts. An ATL-7 would do regular Mega-Damage to the character with APS: Mercury.

Also, Power Stunts aren't a thing in the Palladium Heroes' power set. That is a Marvel Superheroes game aspect. Just mentioning.
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by ZINO »

This is how I deal with hero unlimited
Aliens allowed let a few fall from the sky or whatever man
Bionic done unless no mention and can be converted nuff said
Experiments allowed it why not human or animal look at lone star
Hardware all allowed hey we need thinker
Magic done unless no mention and can be converted nuff said
Wizard done unless no mention and can be converted nuff said
Mega Hero allowed why not make it a big target
Robots done unless no mention and can be converted
Special training allowed
Powers allowed unless no mention and can be converted
Keep it simple and to the point or aka K.I.S.S
Trust me it gonna get wild
Yes they can be hard to say at time over POWERED but give the same amount but also read the book what they say rules if to powerful this can be more of danger
What that saying ……power can corrupt or it can be a great responsibility
Look at the minion war in hero’s which will come out Armageddon Unlimited
And other book from PB and I can come with a fair idea and go with the flow
let your YES be YES and your NO be NO but plz no maybe
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by eliakon »

Rappanui wrote:
Thinyser wrote:If you are gonna add in that "by the way" he has this power and that power and say that AR applies in Rifts and that lasers dont hurt him because all they do is heat (even though heat resistance nor laser resistance are part of APS Mercury or Self Explosion) then its pretty pointless to debate. I'm pretty sure its quite clear that your original statement "if you want impossible to destroy: Aps: Mercury and Self Detonation. read those powers... and see why killing the mercury guy has now become nearly impossible." is simply not true.
Feel free to carry on bending rules and adding powers, but I see no point in continuing to counter these "arguments".

No.. It's the power set that he has that made it worthless.
The AR is NOT ignored in rifts

Except that the rules DO clearly state that there is no AR in rifts.
,
Rappanui wrote: It still applies because you can't just "punch" a liquid and expect it to take damage. and it being mega damage, does not change the way his Armor rating works.

That is a nice house rule of course, but again in Rifts there is no AR for MDC objects.
Rappanui wrote:Mercury reacts to temperature and "energy" weapons will cause it to "move" in advance so yes, very likely it will just open a hole in his body and hit what ever was behind him. Your best bet to kill him is with a particle beam Cannon since it is a disintegration weapon.

Again a house rule. The powers, AS WRITTEN do not give you immunities to energy weapons, nor do they give you the power to 'make a hole in your body' Those can be added by the GM who feels that they are appropriate, but they are house rules, not canon and thus not really relivent to a discussion here.
Rappanui wrote:furthermore, the Npc has other powers that make killing him very hard. almost nothing an average pc can bring to bare (unless you have Twin linked particle beam cannons or a Glitterboy IV or similar...) and the only reason I call it a power stunt is because it is creative use of Several powers at once that is entirely possible within the rules ( Liquification to turn Liquidiy.. spiral to scatter the droplets, self Explosion to blow up what ever you land on. --- Sure you will take a Really long time to reform, but with all those abilities he also has, What does it matter?

That is, again, a house rule. You are claiming that such a thing IS possible. The rules do not state that you can, for instance, spread yourself out with spiral, nor does it say you can detonate when 'splattered'
And to be frank NONE of his powers provide immunities to
Lasers, Light, Heat, Fire, Particle Beams, Magic, Psionics, Chi, Phase, or pretty much anything that is NOT a physical attack, or an explosion. Your house rules are great, and if we accept your house rules then yes he is impossible to harm.....but then its the house rules that are the protection not the powers.
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by eliakon »

Rappanui wrote:but I guess you're the kind of person that says " If a power only says X, it is all that it can ever do, Common Sense, Creative thinking, be Damned!"
Meanwhile one can find "Evidence" in the rules to allow X,Y,Z from happening just by digging into the "Entire" palladium collection of rulebooks.

There is a difference between creative thinking to use a power, and making house rules to change the power.
It is creative to say "I poke a tiny hole to get through' It is a house rule to say "oh, and I am immune to lasers because I am immune.'

I would however LOVE to see any page references from the "Entire" palladium collection that:
Grant AR in Rifts.
Grant people that have kinetic resistance immunity to Energy Weapons
Or any of the other 'creative' things that your claiming are legal by the rules.
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by eliakon »

Ninjabunny wrote:Cyber armor is the only thing in rifts with a AR that is mega damage. Anything that has an ar an becomes MdC loses that ar while on rifts.

Well there is the Triax stuff as well. But there is no NATURAL AR in Rifts....
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by Nightmask »

Well like many rules in Rifts the AR rule that it only applies to SDC objects didn't last all that long as you've various spots where you see MDC with an AR rating (including the Cyber-Knights and some plainclothes armor), so while technically there's a rule that says 'MDC objects don't have AR and MD attack go right through it' there are already exceptions around to demonstrate it's not absolute.
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by Slight001 »

Nightmask wrote:Well like many rules in Rifts the AR rule that it only applies to SDC objects didn't last all that long as you've various spots where you see MDC with an AR rating (including the Cyber-Knights and some plainclothes armor), so while technically there's a rule that says 'MDC objects don't have AR and MD attack go right through it' there are already exceptions around to demonstrate it's not absolute.


while partially correct the examples provided are also talking about armor that doesn't provide full coverage and thus is vulnerable to shots bypassing it. What is being discussed however is the so called "Natural Armor Rating" which is different beast entirely as it ignores damage that fails to find purchase (rolls below A.R.) and only takes damage from those few attacks that do manage to find purchase (rolls over A.R.). There is no example of a "Natural A.R." that effects Mega-Damage weaponry.
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Re: why is rifts so anti super??

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

eliakon wrote:
Ninjabunny wrote:Cyber armor is the only thing in rifts with a AR that is mega damage. Anything that has an ar an becomes MdC loses that ar while on rifts.

Well there is the Triax stuff as well. But there is no NATURAL AR in Rifts....


Not even for animals?
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