Damage House Rules

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Damage House Rules

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

So there's been some discussion on how things deal damage, why they do damage and what makes game balance. This comes from multiple threads but the arguments seem similar.

So, here, I wanted to post my take on the balance of Rifts from a damage standpoint. Feel free to reply directly, or if discussing my ideas isn't your thing, go ahead and post your own house rules, if you have any.

Damage Catagories

I break damage into three levels. Infantry, Power Armor and Robot scales. Infantry covers body armor, rifles, pistols, most melee weapons, most grenades as well as personal vehicles, jeeps and small hovercraft.

Power Armor scale includes, as it suggests, power armor, but also vehicles like AFV's and APC's. The majority of armor piercing weapons from the infantry scale are also included here, as they tend to have anti-vehicle uses as part of their design.

The Robot scale includes tanks, giant bots and other large military vehicles (jets, the CS's Firestorm mobile base, etc).

The scales interact with one another on a damage vs armor basis. Infantry is 1, PA is 2, bots are 3. If your weapon is rated 1, the damage is normal vs infantry, half vs PA, one third vs bots. The reverse is the same for a 3 vs a 1, Power armor, being in the middle deal double damage to infantry, but take double from large bot weapons, etc.

Forcefields always count as a 2 for tech.

Magic on the other hand, for damage is a different animal altogether. You are always infantry scale, even with magic forcefields...unless on a ley line, then you are 2. You deal bot damage and your shielding is scale 3 when on a nexus.

Though, anythying fleshy, MDC or not, unless giant sized, counts as infantry. A gargoyle, even though 15ft tall and MDC will take double damage from a SAMAS' rail gun and mini missiles, for instance.

Supernatural strength, if actually from a supernatural source, and not just equivalent, scales the same as magic on a ley line, so does magical regeneration. So dragons become the scariest thing ever (as if they weren't bad enough) in this system, and get buffer on a ley line/nexus.

There are tons of specifics (Rail guns, armor penetration, increased blast radius for explosives, etc) but this is the gist of how i run damage in my games.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by say652 »

I run a more melee based game. Supernatural Strength applies to weapons that also deal md.

Ranged attacks. -10 to dodge but bonuses apply, I use the HU rules for autododge so its a seperate defense usually at a lower bonus than dodge.

I also use damage multipliers for ranged attacks. Tines three for a head shot and a whopping times ten for shots to the eye -10 on a called shot.

The damage multipliers apply only to bullets arrows and energy weapons only. Sorry mages and blaster heroes.
Last edited by say652 on Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by dragonfett »

I tend to decrease the SDC to MDC ratio from 100 to 1 to 10 to 1. Also I add anywhere from 50% to 100% extra armor to Robot Vehicles and increase the damage 2x to 3x.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

So similar to what I do, just coming from a different direction.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by say652 »

I only apply multipliers to tech weapons. I mean a head shot from a railgun should do a fluckton of damage regardless of how much mdc you have.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Incriptus »

While I often defend it as a "feature", (it gives more of an emphasis for "Augmented Humans" than just having "War Machines" do your dirty work). I do recognize the fact that 5 to 10 guys with energy pistols often overpower tanks or robot vehicles. I can appreciate that others feel differently, and they need some kind of scaling based on Personal/Power Armor/Robot Vehicle.

One of the ideas that I've considered (but never implimented) is that the larger attacks hit more areas and vice versa. For example when you fire your energy rifle at a tank, you hit the main body, you do full damage. Your buddy beside you shoots he also hits the main body and does full damage. Except those damages are tracked seperately. Unless you've coordinated your attack (with called shots and the like) you shooting the left side and him shooting the right side isn't going to stack.

On the other hand when that tank hits a foot soldier's main body with his main cannon ... He isn't just hitting the main body. The larger weapon damages the main body and 1d3 other sub sections. So while your main body is fine at taking 34 MD, your left hand may very well be gone (guess thats where all those bionic limbs come into play)

Again this is just pure theory at this point, but I think it would change the dynamic of foot soldiers vs war machines without me needing to adjust any of the numbers.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

I'd rather just divide and multiply the existing numbers, rather than work with more hit locations than we already have.

That's just me. Seems like more record keeping than it's worth.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Bill »

If I were running the game for a stable group, I'd do something like Arlik suggests. I would very much like to see a clearer distinction in the capabilities and combat roles of infantry, powered armor, giant robots, and their supernatural equivalents. I think using tiered damage distribution would be a natural outgrowth of the SDC/MDC divide too. If you're interested in looking at a similar system that was in print for a while, The World of Synnibarr used one. It was badly encumbered by piercing and hardening mechanics that served to make it highly fluid, but also confusing. I would recommend sacrificing fluidity for clarity.

Instead, I run a drop-in demo game (when I run Rifts at all). That makes a big change to the rules like tweaking damage or damage capacity a bit sticky. While I definitely think it would improve the pace of the game to do something as simple as divide all MDC values by 10, I also think it would be a little dishonest. I'm selling the game, after all, and I want the experience to be true to what players will encounter at another table. On the other hand, I've already adopted a minor variation on the combat sequence...maybe I will speed play a bit with smaller MDC numbers the next time I screw around with Rifts. :)
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

The one thing I'm a little torn on are heavy lasers like the ATL-7. Even though they're infantry portable, I've always let them deal full damage to heavy tier 3 targets. Though, I think they should get the armor piercing quality, but I don't like to set those kinds of exceptions.
Mark Hall wrote:Y'all seem to assume that Palladium books are written with the same exacting precision with which they are analyzed. I think that is... ambitious.

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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

dragonfett wrote:I tend to decrease the SDC to MDC ratio from 100 to 1 to 10 to 1. Also I add anywhere from 50% to 100% extra armor to Robot Vehicles and increase the damage 2x to 3x.

How's that work with tanks and sdc weapons then DF? The idea of MDC is that most SD weapons can't do that in a single shot. But with your 10:1 ratio people can now hack off bits of tank with a standard Swihander or Nodachi(3d6 +PS), heck even a Katana has a good chance to do damage to your MDC structures. And though that may make for some pretty freaking awesome scenes where your martial artist chops up a tank, it doesn't make sense to allow a tank with more advanced armor than an M1 Abrams to be whittled apart by your average NPC using a heavy sword. Heck even your average sword at 2d6 has a chance of cutting into that tank and ANY damage is more than simply scratching the paint if "scratching the paint" 600 times is going to cause your tank to stop working.

The ratio must be at least double the damage the best melee weapon can do with some good strength behind it. The burst from a machinegun using anything less than 20mm ammo at high rates of fire should also NOT be able to penitrate MDC armor. Show me the last time a mini gun firing 7.62x51 ammunition at an abrams did anything more than cosmetic damage. And I'll remind you that MDC is supposed to be better than an Abrams or Chobham armor.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Alrik Vas wrote:The one thing I'm a little torn on are heavy lasers like the ATL-7. Even though they're infantry portable, I've always let them deal full damage to heavy tier 3 targets. Though, I think they should get the armor piercing quality, but I don't like to set those kinds of exceptions.

Why would it be an exception? Because it is an ANTI-TANK weapon it means it should do your level 3 damage.
Or just tripple the level 1 damage it does.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

Yeah, zero kay, I do have it at tier 3 damage. I'm just debating making it armor piercing, want it to be able to disable a tank from surprise.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Bill wrote:If I were running the game for a stable group, I'd do something like Arlik suggests. I would very much like to see a clearer distinction in the capabilities and combat roles of infantry, powered armor, giant robots, and their supernatural equivalents. I think using tiered damage distribution would be a natural outgrowth of the SDC/MDC divide too. If you're interested in looking at a similar system that was in print for a while, The World of Synnibarr used one. It was badly encumbered by piercing and hardening mechanics that served to make it highly fluid, but also confusing. I would recommend sacrificing fluidity for clarity.

Instead, I run a drop-in demo game (when I run Rifts at all). That makes a big change to the rules like tweaking damage or damage capacity a bit sticky. While I definitely think it would improve the pace of the game to do something as simple as divide all MDC values by 10, I also think it would be a little dishonest. I'm selling the game, after all, and I want the experience to be true to what players will encounter at another table. On the other hand, I've already adopted a minor variation on the combat sequence...maybe I will speed play a bit with smaller MDC numbers the next time I screw around with Rifts. :)


Synninarrrrrr. You have uttered the name of the game which holds the title for worst RPG ever. But I own it. They don't use tiered damage they use 10ths and characters can bypass equipment in the amount of 10ths they have. The only truly tiered system I've seen is Mekton. They actually call it scaling and there are several scales to create thing from a pistol that transforms into an evil robot which was built at 1:1 scale but you want to shrink down to a giant evil robot that transforms into the size of a small planet which you would again create at 1:1 scale and apply upscaling to.

But again remember that mdc was made so it was almost impossible for sdc weapons to damage it also remember that the idea in rifts is that in the golden age they developed weapons and armor that allowed infantry to stand toe to tread with tanks.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by dragonfett »

Zer0 Kay wrote:
dragonfett wrote:I tend to decrease the SDC to MDC ratio from 100 to 1 to 10 to 1. Also I add anywhere from 50% to 100% extra armor to Robot Vehicles and increase the damage 2x to 3x.

How's that work with tanks and sdc weapons then DF? The idea of MDC is that most SD weapons can't do that in a single shot. But with your 10:1 ratio people can now hack off bits of tank with a standard Swihander or Nodachi(3d6 +PS), heck even a Katana has a good chance to do damage to your MDC structures. And though that may make for some pretty freaking awesome scenes where your martial artist chops up a tank, it doesn't make sense to allow a tank with more advanced armor than an M1 Abrams to be whittled apart by your average NPC using a heavy sword. Heck even your average sword at 2d6 has a chance of cutting into that tank and ANY damage is more than simply scratching the paint if "scratching the paint" 600 times is going to cause your tank to stop working.

The ratio must be at least double the damage the best melee weapon can do with some good strength behind it. The burst from a machinegun using anything less than 20mm ammo at high rates of fire should also NOT be able to penitrate MDC armor. Show me the last time a mini gun firing 7.62x51 ammunition at an abrams did anything more than cosmetic damage. And I'll remind you that MDC is supposed to be better than an Abrams or Chobham armor.


It works the same way that it would in Palladium Fantasy or Hero's Unlimited where a fighter type character takes his sword (or in your scenario a martial artist takes a sword to a tank).

To be honest, the main reason I do this is because it adds a certain level a reality to me (the person running the game) that humanity could have survived as well as it has in the 300 some odd years after the apocalypse where the most high tech weapons and armor are relatively rare (in that they are mostly in the hands of military/former military members) while it still allows the possibility of militias springing up for mutual defense using what ever they have on hand (SD weaponry) and still have even a chance to survive.

Although now after reading this post, I am thinking I will switch to Alrik Vas's method.
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Re: Damage House Rules

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The worst RPG ever is actually FATAL. It's racist, misogynistic, and utterly insane in a bad way. Synnibarr isn't even number two, look up Racial Holy War. Synnibarr is merely badly written and whimsical by comparison.

Also, the 10ths system is effectively a tiered damage system, it's just not explicitly so. Each 10th of protection divides incoming damage by 10; so MDC would effectively default to two 10ths protection. To do as Arlik wants, power armor could effectively have three 10ths, and giant robots four 10ths, etc. Synnibar has insane damage multipliers, so it's not uncommon to have OVER 9000! damage come at your character. The 10ths system allows for characters with godlike durability that ignore such assaults though. Where it gets complicated is when they add "cutting" to the mix; which represents piercing attacks that won't necessarily do more damage to a target, but will bypass their protection.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by dreicunan »

Sdc vs mdc: mdc damage = (x-50)/10
Mdc vs sdc: sdc damage = (max damage) x5 + 50

In order to do mdc damage, an sdc weapon must be capable of doing more than 50 points IN A SINGLE BLOW. This is important because it means that guns that can do over 50 sdc thanks to bursts don't count, it has to be from a single shot or the round/shell just can't penetrate the armor. So to use the 7.62 rounds from the JA-11 as an example, a normal, 5d6 round has no chance of damaging mdc, while the explosive round that does 1d6x10 has a chance to inflict 1 mdc if you roll a 6 on the damage die. Ancient weapons like sdc swords or spears just can't damage mdc under these rules (vibroblades are, of course, a different story).

An example of mdc vs sdc: Classic wilks 320; max of 1d6 = 6. 6 x 5 = 30. 30 + 50 = 80 sdc. While a boom gun would inflict 950 sdc. If that feels low, change x5 to x10 in damage formula. (110 and 1850 respectively)
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

As far as Armor protection goes, I've found that among non-creatures that Infantry, PA, and 'borgs (and similar sized objects) tend to have similar ratios as far as total MDC to Mass go. Vehicles and giant 'bots again are shown to have similar ratios. Then you get the BFR (big fricken ride) like capital ships which are again in their own classification. Creatures tend to run the whole range unfortunatly, though there might be some type of similar sub-classification in place (I haven't attempted to create one). NOTE: this is putting all mass figures in the same units, though some are described differently (blank statement, loaded, dry), but was noted.

Interestingly IIRC the Infantry scale is like x10 the value of the Vehicle scale, with them behind larger than the capital ship being much larger (I think another factor of 10, though it might have been more). Really what might work best it to simply modify the MDC protective value offered and leave weapons alone. Though it has been a while since I looked at this.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

The issues I have with leaving weapons alone, shadowlogan, is things like the Devastator, Dragon Drednaught and the like. Early book stuff that is still supposed to be the most terrifying thing on the planet (well, there is a Dev2 now...so, whatever) but they literally deal damage on an infantry scale unless they're shooting volleys of missiles.

If we're talking mass and damage, let's not get too Robotech/Macross forum on it here, but I think you'd agree that a 1200lb weapon fired by giant-robo action would deal a bit more than 1d6x10.

However, maybe against something in it's own class, it would. Though against a power armor, it could possibly deal enough damage to take out it's main weapon, or vs infantry...well, the poor shmuck is just slag now.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

@Alrik Vas.

I haven't really looked at weapon damage vs size, but I know what you are getting at in terms of scale. The problem is inherent in the way the PB system is set up in both terms of damage output and damage soak. There really isn't an easy fix for it IMHO short of a rewrite those stats with scale in mind (something the editor/writers don't seem to do well).

When I did the analysis on the total soak vs mass (all in in the same units) years back it included all the Rifts titles I could get my hand on (and it was quite extensive), not just RT/M2. The whole thing came about due to a REF vs CS debate, where a small sample I used seem to have a pattern, that pattern held up pretty well for non-creatures actually.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

I see. Yeah, with the way I do things, certain creatures have to be treated differently in terms of scale. Honestly, i let a brodkill or a gargyole, even with their size, take normal damage from infantry weapons. An adult dragon would be much tougher but that's just me.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

dragonfett wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
dragonfett wrote:I tend to decrease the SDC to MDC ratio from 100 to 1 to 10 to 1. Also I add anywhere from 50% to 100% extra armor to Robot Vehicles and increase the damage 2x to 3x.

How's that work with tanks and sdc weapons then DF? The idea of MDC is that most SD weapons can't do that in a single shot. But with your 10:1 ratio people can now hack off bits of tank with a standard Swihander or Nodachi(3d6 +PS), heck even a Katana has a good chance to do damage to your MDC structures. And though that may make for some pretty freaking awesome scenes where your martial artist chops up a tank, it doesn't make sense to allow a tank with more advanced armor than an M1 Abrams to be whittled apart by your average NPC using a heavy sword. Heck even your average sword at 2d6 has a chance of cutting into that tank and ANY damage is more than simply scratching the paint if "scratching the paint" 600 times is going to cause your tank to stop working.

The ratio must be at least double the damage the best melee weapon can do with some good strength behind it. The burst from a machinegun using anything less than 20mm ammo at high rates of fire should also NOT be able to penitrate MDC armor. Show me the last time a mini gun firing 7.62x51 ammunition at an abrams did anything more than cosmetic damage. And I'll remind you that MDC is supposed to be better than an Abrams or Chobham armor.


It works the same way that it would in Palladium Fantasy or Hero's Unlimited where a fighter type character takes his sword (or in your scenario a martial artist takes a sword to a tank).

To be honest, the main reason I do this is because it adds a certain level a reality to me (the person running the game) that humanity could have survived as well as it has in the 300 some odd years after the apocalypse where the most high tech weapons and armor are relatively rare (in that they are mostly in the hands of military/former military members) while it still allows the possibility of militias springing up for mutual defense using what ever they have on hand (SD weaponry) and still have even a chance to survive.

Although now after reading this post, I am thinking I will switch to Alrik Vas's method.

0 points for realism. A submachinegun or sword has no hope of taking out a tank... Ever and even with multiplying the damage it still allows it to happen.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Bill wrote:The worst RPG ever is actually FATAL. It's racist, misogynistic, and utterly insane in a bad way. Synnibarr isn't even number two, look up Racial Holy War. Synnibarr is merely badly written and whimsical by comparison.

Also, the 10ths system is effectively a tiered damage system, it's just not explicitly so. Each 10th of protection divides incoming damage by 10; so MDC would effectively default to two 10ths protection. To do as Arlik wants, power armor could effectively have three 10ths, and giant robots four 10ths, etc. Synnibar has insane damage multipliers, so it's not uncommon to have OVER 9000! damage come at your character. The 10ths system allows for characters with godlike durability that ignore such assaults though. Where it gets complicated is when they add "cutting" to the mix; which represents piercing attacks that won't necessarily do more damage to a target, but will bypass their protection.


funny you mention racist about Fatal. First, free speech should never be an issue it is mechanics and story that make it good or bad. Second with the addition of the synnanar players guide McCraken actually stated that it is the prejudices and the relationships between races that make it an RPG. Then the players guide goes about giving the different species prejudices. The chamelion drakes hate one of the Amazon tribes because they hate all homosexuals and the tribe is predominantly Lesbian. The book throws around so much hate. However:
-It's fictional races (real sexual preferences though).
-It's free speech
-It's still the overly complicated mechanics of synnibar that make it bad.

So then since Rifts has racial or rather special supremecy and genocide does that rank it above symminar as a bad game?

The 10ths could work in a game if what had x 10ths was limited, I was just saying as it is in synninar a human of sufficient level and class who also had enough money could still out 10th a tank.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

dreicunan wrote:Sdc vs mdc: mdc damage = (x-50)/10
Mdc vs sdc: sdc damage = (max damage) x5 + 50

In order to do mdc damage, an sdc weapon must be capable of doing more than 50 points IN A SINGLE BLOW. This is important because it means that guns that can do over 50 sdc thanks to bursts don't count, it has to be from a single shot or the round/shell just can't penetrate the armor. So to use the 7.62 rounds from the JA-11 as an example, a normal, 5d6 round has no chance of damaging mdc, while the explosive round that does 1d6x10 has a chance to inflict 1 mdc if you roll a 6 on the damage die. Ancient weapons like sdc swords or spears just can't damage mdc under these rules (vibroblades are, of course, a different story).

An example of mdc vs sdc: Classic wilks 320; max of 1d6 = 6. 6 x 5 = 30. 30 + 50 = 80 sdc. While a boom gun would inflict 950 sdc. If that feels low, change x5 to x10 in damage formula. (110 and 1850 respectively)


so kinda like the old mdc system, prior to the rewrite trying to allow .50 cals. to do MDC in burst, but at 50 instead of 100.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by say652 »

Um a 50 does 1D6×10 per round!! A three round burst should deal 1 md a ten round burst 1D6md and a 100 round burst 1D6×10md. 8 bursts in an 800 round belt. Of course DUC rounds deal double sdv damage so if properly funded you can get twice as many burst dealing 1D6×10md out of a belt.

The fiddy is still a force to be reckoned with. 10 bursts on par with a railgun! 20 if using depleted uranium core rounds.

PowerSurge actually has to roll vs a horror factor 11 (his intelligence) vs 50 cals.
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Re: Damage House Rules

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Zer0 Kay wrote:So then since Rifts has racial or rather special supremecy and genocide does that rank it above symminar as a bad game?


In that they're not considered virtues for players to emulate per se, no. Rifts is a bad game for a lot of other reasons though, and possibly worse than Synnibarr by simple merit of volume. This is not a thread about that though.

Zer0 Kay wrote:The 10ths could work in a game if what had x 10ths was limited, I was just saying as it is in synninar a human of sufficient level and class who also had enough money could still out 10th a tank.


I was only using it as an example of what could be done, and one with some similarity to the existing megadamage rules. Establishing guidelines on how much protection different sorts of characters, equipment, and objects have is probably a good plan. Honestly, I think for Rifts to maintain its flavor, any change to the way damage is managed will have to be overly specific to individual weapons, armors, and attacks; more or less requiring a full rewrite of everything in the game. Sounds like way too much work to me.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

say652 wrote:Um a 50 does 1D6×10 per round!! A three round burst should deal 1 md a ten round burst 1D6md and a 100 round burst 1D6×10md. 8 bursts in an 800 round belt. Of course DUC rounds deal double sdv damage so if properly funded you can get twice as many burst dealing 1D6×10md out of a belt.

The fiddy is still a force to be reckoned with. 10 bursts on par with a railgun! 20 if using depleted uranium core rounds.

PowerSurge actually has to roll vs a horror factor 11 (his intelligence) vs 50 cals.
"I um thought about and no way no how not happening find yourself another idiot to get shot Shady Blue!"


No... No they shouldn't. The original MDC rules a .50 cal. couldn't do any MD because a single bullet isn't capable of doing 100SDC old rules unless a single round could the gun won't no matter how many bullets you hit it with, because all the bullets aren't hitting the same point. I've never seen a .50 cal penetrate an Abrams so why should they penitrate tougher armor? Answer system modification due to whining. .50s are crap if this is pure damage then the minigun firing far smaller rounds at a MUCH higher rate should also do MD but that too would be stupid because they don't penitrate Abrams either. Heck if we wanna get really stupid a full magazine burst from an HK G-11 Should do MD. Really, really stupid... 1000 snipers firing .22 LR rounds from competition rifles at the same point on a tank should be able to do MD... :nh:
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Bill wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:So then since Rifts has racial or rather special supremecy and genocide does that rank it above symminar as a bad game?


In that they're not considered virtues for players to emulate per se, no. Rifts is a bad game for a lot of other reasons though, and possibly worse than Synnibarr by simple merit of volume. This is not a thread about that though.

Zer0 Kay wrote:The 10ths could work in a game if what had x 10ths was limited, I was just saying as it is in synninar a human of sufficient level and class who also had enough money could still out 10th a tank.


I was only using it as an example of what could be done, and one with some similarity to the existing megadamage rules. Establishing guidelines on how much protection different sorts of characters, equipment, and objects have is probably a good plan. Honestly, I think for Rifts to maintain its flavor, any change to the way damage is managed will have to be overly specific to individual weapons, armors, and attacks; more or less requiring a full rewrite of everything in the game. Sounds like way too much work to me.

To maintain flavor... Leave it alone. Armor and weapons were developed in the GA that allowed a single man to go toe tobtoe with a tank. Believe something similar was written somewhere.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Bill wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:So then since Rifts has racial or rather special supremecy and genocide does that rank it above symminar as a bad game?


In that they're not considered virtues for players to emulate per se, no. Rifts is a bad game for a lot of other reasons though, and possibly worse than Synnibarr by simple merit of volume. This is not a thread about that though.

Zer0 Kay wrote:The 10ths could work in a game if what had x 10ths was limited, I was just saying as it is in synninar a human of sufficient level and class who also had enough money could still out 10th a tank.


I was only using it as an example of what could be done, and one with some similarity to the existing megadamage rules. Establishing guidelines on how much protection different sorts of characters, equipment, and objects have is probably a good plan. Honestly, I think for Rifts to maintain its flavor, any change to the way damage is managed will have to be overly specific to individual weapons, armors, and attacks; more or less requiring a full rewrite of everything in the game. Sounds like way too much work to me.


also if a game being misogynistic makes it bad..
Ironwood (based off of an adult comic series of the same name)
Machowomen with guns (if it wasn't entirelyeant to be a joke and surprised the heck out of the designer when he saw it being played at a convention).
Nothing can be worse than all the calculations required in a Synnibar, there is such a thing as too much reality in a game when the players need to be mathaletes to enjoy the game.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

Zer0 Kay wrote:
say652 wrote:Um a 50 does 1D6×10 per round!! A three round burst should deal 1 md a ten round burst 1D6md and a 100 round burst 1D6×10md. 8 bursts in an 800 round belt. Of course DUC rounds deal double sdv damage so if properly funded you can get twice as many burst dealing 1D6×10md out of a belt.

The fiddy is still a force to be reckoned with. 10 bursts on par with a railgun! 20 if using depleted uranium core rounds.

PowerSurge actually has to roll vs a horror factor 11 (his intelligence) vs 50 cals.
"I um thought about and no way no how not happening find yourself another idiot to get shot Shady Blue!"


No... No they shouldn't. The original MDC rules a .50 cal. couldn't do any MD because a single bullet isn't capable of doing 100SDC old rules unless a single round could the gun won't no matter how many bullets you hit it with, because all the bullets aren't hitting the same point. I've never seen a .50 cal penetrate an Abrams so why should they penitrate tougher armor? Answer system modification due to whining. .50s are crap if this is pure damage then the minigun firing far smaller rounds at a MUCH higher rate should also do MD but that too would be stupid because they don't penitrate Abrams either. Heck if we wanna get really stupid a full magazine burst from an HK G-11 Should do MD. Really, really stupid... 1000 snipers firing .22 LR rounds from competition rifles at the same point on a tank should be able to do MD... :nh:

While i agree with your words, there are .50 cal rounds (specialty types) that can penetrate tank armor. Anti-materiel is amazing.

HEAP BMG rounds are use to engage low flying aircraft and lightly armored vehicles. They might not penetrate an M1, but honestly...not much does. The round, in my opinion, would be able to deal well over 100 SDC on average. They have about the same effectiveness as a 20mm round vs armored targets.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by say652 »

Late to the party, but a Duc round in 50 cal does 2D6×10 sdc or 1 md per bullet.
:D

And pretty sure the 50 cal ramjet rounds inflict md
50 cal explosive rounds md. (I dont recommend these far to unstable)
Last edited by say652 on Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Tor »

Zer0 Kay wrote:with your 10:1 ratio people can now hack off bits of tank with a standard Swihander or Nodachi(3d6 +PS), heck even a Katana has a good chance to do damage to your MDC structures.
Rifts is so flooded with magical swords or stuff that is MDC for weird reasons that this is already happening so much I don't even think people would mind.

People can theoretically cut up tanks with swords in HU as well, only needing a high strike roll to bypass AR.

Bill wrote:worst RPG ever is actually FATAL. It's racist, misogynistic, and utterly insane in a bad way.

Sounds interesting, you make me want to read it to find out where these conclusions are drawn from. Are we allowed to discuss what this acronym stands for? Might have to be put in the 'other games' subforum though. If you make thread please PM link
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by say652 »

-4 ar vs duc rounds.
Supernatural strength always hurts ar decides if its a lot or a little.

I like armor ratings. Natural ar and robotic ar are great. Body armor ar realistic. Mdc= wonky but fun.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Alrik Vas wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
say652 wrote:Um a 50 does 1D6×10 per round!! A three round burst should deal 1 md a ten round burst 1D6md and a 100 round burst 1D6×10md. 8 bursts in an 800 round belt. Of course DUC rounds deal double sdv damage so if properly funded you can get twice as many burst dealing 1D6×10md out of a belt.

The fiddy is still a force to be reckoned with. 10 bursts on par with a railgun! 20 if using depleted uranium core rounds.

PowerSurge actually has to roll vs a horror factor 11 (his intelligence) vs 50 cals.
"I um thought about and no way no how not happening find yourself another idiot to get shot Shady Blue!"


No... No they shouldn't. The original MDC rules a .50 cal. couldn't do any MD because a single bullet isn't capable of doing 100SDC old rules unless a single round could the gun won't no matter how many bullets you hit it with, because all the bullets aren't hitting the same point. I've never seen a .50 cal penetrate an Abrams so why should they penitrate tougher armor? Answer system modification due to whining. .50s are crap if this is pure damage then the minigun firing far smaller rounds at a MUCH higher rate should also do MD but that too would be stupid because they don't penitrate Abrams either. Heck if we wanna get really stupid a full magazine burst from an HK G-11 Should do MD. Really, really stupid... 1000 snipers firing .22 LR rounds from competition rifles at the same point on a tank should be able to do MD... :nh:

While i agree with your words, there are .50 cal rounds (specialty types) that can penetrate tank armor. Anti-materiel is amazing.

HEAP BMG rounds are use to engage low flying aircraft and lightly armored vehicles. They might not penetrate an M1, but honestly...not much does. The round, in my opinion, would be able to deal well over 100 SDC on average. They have about the same effectiveness as a 20mm round vs armored targets.

Most aircraft aren't armored I'd say only the A-10 comes close and that is mostly survivability due to redundancies. Modern light armored vehicles do not equal MDC. MDC > modern MBT. All the .50 caps in game use standard ammo for starting.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Alrik Vas wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
say652 wrote:Um a 50 does 1D6×10 per round!! A three round burst should deal 1 md a ten round burst 1D6md and a 100 round burst 1D6×10md. 8 bursts in an 800 round belt. Of course DUC rounds deal double sdv damage so if properly funded you can get twice as many burst dealing 1D6×10md out of a belt.

The fiddy is still a force to be reckoned with. 10 bursts on par with a railgun! 20 if using depleted uranium core rounds.

PowerSurge actually has to roll vs a horror factor 11 (his intelligence) vs 50 cals.
"I um thought about and no way no how not happening find yourself another idiot to get shot Shady Blue!"


No... No they shouldn't. The original MDC rules a .50 cal. couldn't do any MD because a single bullet isn't capable of doing 100SDC old rules unless a single round could the gun won't no matter how many bullets you hit it with, because all the bullets aren't hitting the same point. I've never seen a .50 cal penetrate an Abrams so why should they penitrate tougher armor? Answer system modification due to whining. .50s are crap if this is pure damage then the minigun firing far smaller rounds at a MUCH higher rate should also do MD but that too would be stupid because they don't penitrate Abrams either. Heck if we wanna get really stupid a full magazine burst from an HK G-11 Should do MD. Really, really stupid... 1000 snipers firing .22 LR rounds from competition rifles at the same point on a tank should be able to do MD... :nh:

While i agree with your words, there are .50 cal rounds (specialty types) that can penetrate tank armor. Anti-materiel is amazing.

HEAP BMG rounds are use to engage low flying aircraft and lightly armored vehicles. They might not penetrate an M1, but honestly...not much does. The round, in my opinion, would be able to deal well over 100 SDC on average. They have about the same effectiveness as a 20mm round vs armored targets.


BTW all military .50 cal weapons larger than the DeEagle are classified anti material because the GC says .50 cal is inhumane, how do they still get used on people? I was trying to destroy his belt buckle/uniform/etc.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

say652 wrote:Late to the party, but a Duc round in 50 cal does 2D6×10 sdc or 1 md per bullet.
:D

And pretty sure the 50 cal ramjet rounds inflict md
50 cal explosive rounds md. (I dont recommend these far to unstable)


yes but iirc most of the .50 cals. are statted with normal rounds.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

Regardless, when you're going against MDC, and all you've got is a .50, your options are

1. Don't fight
2. Fight Dirty
3. Get upgraded ammunition.

Getting better ammunition works out because the support for it exists in game. The normal stats wouldn't be used for the case we're discussing.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Alrik Vas wrote:Regardless, when you're going against MDC, and all you've got is a .50, your options are

1. Don't fight
2. Fight Dirty
3. Get upgraded ammunition.

Getting better ammunition works out because the support for it exists in game. The normal stats wouldn't be used for the case we're discussing.


Palm face.


Yes normal stats would because my point was only that by old rules a standard ammo .50 cal could not get through MDC armor because a single round didn't do MD. And the rationalization in game was no matter how long a burst from a sub machine gun you shot at a tank it wasn't going to go through because the damage isn't on one point. Then wheels started squeeking and now burst rules are gone and .50 cals with standard ammunition can do MDC in bursts.

So there is no point in your statement or rather, your statement doesn't refute mine it changes the topic. From SDC weapons that do < 100 SD with a single round couldn't and still shouldn't peniteate MDC armor to well if you used DU, U or RJ rounds a single .50 cal round even by old rule standards could achieve MDC.

Even then there is still the issue that it's still only 2d6x10 which does not equal "or 1MD", 1MD is 100 SD ALL THE TIME, not most, not half or some... ALL and the .50 only has a 3:11 or 27% chance of equalling an MD. So in a burst of thirty you may do 9 MD, but what do they have them doing?

Bring back burst rules! Yeah sure it was weird with damage to ammo ratio but we didn't have adc weapons causing MDC either.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

The damages for DU and HEAP would be different. Are you familiar with it, or did palladium forget that kind of ammunition?

Though I could see how someone would rationalize their damage as the same.

To me, this comes back to a lack of satisfactory rules for armor and weapons that defeatit. Hence this thread of house rules.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by say652 »

Agreed.

Best part about characters that can jump back and forth between mdc and sdc realms.

Sometimes the adventure works better mdc. Fighting conservators or dragons.

Sometimes the adventure runs better in an sdc realm. Armed thugs and hostages, a militia armed with vehicle mounted 50 cals, vs other supers.

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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Alrik Vas wrote:The damages for DU and HEAP would be different. Are you familiar with it, or did palladium forget that kind of ammunition?

Though I could see how someone would rationalize their damage as the same.

To me, this comes back to a lack of satisfactory rules for armor and weapons that defeatit. Hence this thread of house rules.


WHAT? It's hard to tell who your responding to without quoting the post or using a @ place and here to designate who your post is at.


I'm familiar with most ammo types and why many don't work on the M1 and similar CHOBAM armor and reactive armors and why tank armor is angled, and it isn't to deflect bullets.

Regardless of the specialty ammo MGs are statted with FMJ (standard) rounds (assumed because nowhere soes it say special tounds are used) not specialized ammo. I don't recall PB statting out HEAP or HESH/HEP or APFSDS rounds (granted those last two are usually large gun munitions like tanks) or any other special ammo besides DU and ramjets.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Dog_O_War »

I use a tiered damage system. There are six levels; 0 - 5. This applies to SDC and MDC separately. That is, a level 5 SDC attack is not under or equal to a level 0 MDC attack; it is equal to a level 5 attack, and then you use the SDC to MDC ratio.

I use a 30:1 SDC to MDC ratio.

There is a penetration value all weapons have in coordination with the damage-tier system.

I have strength apply to melee weapons - physical ones - like vibro-blades and the like. The damage isn't converted; if your sword does 3d6 MD and your strength is adding +10 SD, then you're doing 3d6 MD +10 SD.

High strength adds a level of penetration to melee weapons; depending on your strength and strength category, you get an additional amount of armour penetration. For example (these numbers are not accurate, just for example-purposes) a 40 robotic strength nets you +1 level of armour penetration, whereas a 15 supernatural strength nets you that same +1 level of armour penetration.

Magic has no penetration value; it does damage equally to all tiers. However, higher tiers have higher resistance to secondary effects; this is translated to a save bonus based upon the tier.

Similar to damage, Magic does not follow the tier system; instead, higher-AP attacks do an increased amount of damage, typically in the form of a higher dice value. Example: 3d6 AP 1 attack does 3d8 against magic armour, whereas 3d6 AP 2 does 3d10. When increasing the damage beyond d12, add +2 x the number of dice for each additional step.

These are just the basics.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by say652 »

Quick mdc to sdc conversion.
For hp and sdc. Mdc=sdc, Mdc=hit points.
I feel that half and half doesnt give the essence of durability these beings possess.
Ar mdc/10 normally.

Mdc tech weapons 1:1 but mdc TECH(tech only) bypasses armor rating.

So your laser pistol hurts aps:metal on a successful hit. Even if an 8 is rolled.

Robots and power armor add in mdc of all parts thus equals sdc. Ar is limited by the ar calues in the robot section.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Alrik Vas wrote:The damages for DU and HEAP would be different. Are you familiar with it, or did palladium forget that kind of ammunition?

Though I could see how someone would rationalize their damage as the same.

To me, this comes back to a lack of satisfactory rules for armor and weapons that defeatit. Hence this thread of house rules.


WHAT? It's hard to tell who your responding to without quoting the post or using a @ place and here to designate who your post is at.


I'm familiar with most ammo types and why many don't work on the M1 and similar CHOBAM armor and reactive armors and why tank armor is angled, and it isn't to deflect bullets.

Regardless of the specialty ammo MGs are statted with FMJ (standard) rounds (assumed because nowhere soes it say special tounds are used) not specialized ammo. I don't recall PB statting out HEAP or HESH/HEP or APFSDS rounds (granted those last two are usually large gun munitions like tanks) or any other special ammo besides DU and ramjets.

First, you state repeatedly that the ammunition is FMJ, which i've never refuted and I don't know why you keep bringing it up when i'm not talking about standard rounds. Then you go and start talking about real life to back up your side, but the game mechanics don't support real life.

Though I'm aware that in real life, even a high explosive round from a .50 won't damage an M1A1 significantly, if at all. But in the game, it's all SDC or MDC. When you do 100 SDC, you deal MDC. So if you have single, .50 rounds that can deal 100+ damage on average, you have a mega damage SDC machinegun.

This is something that I disagree with. I'm not going to quote myself, but I'll say it again. The damage rules are unsatisfactory to me. I'm more inclined to agree with your assessment, ZeroKay. I just don't think the game rules support it, which is why this thread exists.
Mark Hall wrote:Y'all seem to assume that Palladium books are written with the same exacting precision with which they are analyzed. I think that is... ambitious.

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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Alrik Vas wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Alrik Vas wrote:The damages for DU and HEAP would be different. Are you familiar with it, or did palladium forget that kind of ammunition?

Though I could see how someone would rationalize their damage as the same.

To me, this comes back to a lack of satisfactory rules for armor and weapons that defeatit. Hence this thread of house rules.


WHAT? It's hard to tell who your responding to without quoting the post or using a @ place and here to designate who your post is at.


I'm familiar with most ammo types and why many don't work on the M1 and similar CHOBAM armor and reactive armors and why tank armor is angled, and it isn't to deflect bullets.

Regardless of the specialty ammo MGs are statted with FMJ (standard) rounds (assumed because nowhere soes it say special tounds are used) not specialized ammo. I don't recall PB statting out HEAP or HESH/HEP or APFSDS rounds (granted those last two are usually large gun munitions like tanks) or any other special ammo besides DU and ramjets.

First, you state repeatedly that the ammunition is FMJ, which i've never refuted and I don't know why you keep bringing it up when i'm not talking about standard rounds. Then you go and start talking about real life to back up your side, but the game mechanics don't support real life.

Though I'm aware that in real life, even a high explosive round from a .50 won't damage an M1A1 significantly, if at all. But in the game, it's all SDC or MDC. When you do 100 SDC, you deal MDC. So if you have single, .50 rounds that can deal 100+ damage on average, you have a mega damage SDC machinegun.

This is something that I disagree with. I'm not going to quote myself, but I'll say it again. The damage rules are unsatisfactory to me. I'm more inclined to agree with your assessment, ZeroKay. I just don't think the game rules support it, which is why this thread exists.


Thank you for making it known who you are responding to.

My points
-.50 cal MG are started with standard rounds that do less than 100 SDC per round
-By original rules a single round had to do 100-199 SD to do 1MD, making .50 cal MG incapable of doing so, as statted.
-Removal of burst rules and inclusion of individual weapon damages for burst gave each weapon the ability to do >100 SDC without burast rules, thereby theoretically allowing a gun of any calibur, including an airgun, with sufficient rate of fire to do MD.
-I feel that this was a product or result of too many squeaky wheels enamored with the .50 cal. bullet.
-No ammount of providing how special ammunition is capable of, or how it does the damage to upgrade a single .50 round to do MD will change the fact that the ORIGINAL rules would never allow a standard .50 to do damage
-The BOOK'S explanation was that no matter how long you shot a tank with a sub machinegun it isn't going to damage it.
-It also does not change that the books say that tanks from rifts are superior to modern tanks. Going so far as to say that body armor and small arms tech has advance to such a point as to allow a foot soldier to stand toe to toe with a tank and have a fair fight. To change it from the way it is makes it so infantry can't stand toe to toe with a tank and have a fair chance to win or lose. Now the toe to toe thing could be read in combination with the rifts tank is better than an M1 and the tanks they were talking about standing against was our modern tanks. However, the phrasing didn't say in such a way as to refer to the tanks of their past/our present, but to the tanks that were the contemporary of the infantry armor.
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Alrik Vas wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Alrik Vas wrote:The damages for DU and HEAP would be different. Are you familiar with it, or did palladium forget that kind of ammunition?

Though I could see how someone would rationalize their damage as the same.

To me, this comes back to a lack of satisfactory rules for armor and weapons that defeatit. Hence this thread of house rules.


WHAT? It's hard to tell who your responding to without quoting the post or using a @ place and here to designate who your post is at.


I'm familiar with most ammo types and why many don't work on the M1 and similar CHOBAM armor and reactive armors and why tank armor is angled, and it isn't to deflect bullets.

Regardless of the specialty ammo MGs are statted with FMJ (standard) rounds (assumed because nowhere soes it say special tounds are used) not specialized ammo. I don't recall PB statting out HEAP or HESH/HEP or APFSDS rounds (granted those last two are usually large gun munitions like tanks) or any other special ammo besides DU and ramjets.

First, you state repeatedly that the ammunition is FMJ, which i've never refuted and I don't know why you keep bringing it up when i'm not talking about standard rounds. Then you go and start talking about real life to back up your side, but the game mechanics don't support real life.

Though I'm aware that in real life, even a high explosive round from a .50 won't damage an M1A1 significantly, if at all. But in the game, it's all SDC or MDC. When you do 100 SDC, you deal MDC. So if you have single, .50 rounds that can deal 100+ damage on average, you have a mega damage SDC machinegun.

This is something that I disagree with. I'm not going to quote myself, but I'll say it again. The damage rules are unsatisfactory to me. I'm more inclined to agree with your assessment, ZeroKay. I just don't think the game rules support it, which is why this thread exists.


Thank you for making it known who you are responding to.

My points
-.50 cal MG are started with standard rounds that do less than 100 SDC per round
-By original rules a single round had to do 100-199 SD to do 1MD, making .50 cal MG incapable of doing so, as statted.
-Removal of burst rules and inclusion of individual weapon damages for burst gave each weapon the ability to do >100 SDC without burast rules, thereby theoretically allowing a gun of any calibur, including an airgun, with sufficient rate of fire to do MD.
-I feel that this was a product or result of too many squeaky wheels enamored with the .50 cal. bullet.
-No ammount of providing how special ammunition is capable of, or how it does the damage to upgrade a single .50 round to do MD will change the fact that the ORIGINAL rules would never allow a standard .50 to do damage
-The BOOK'S explanation was that no matter how long you shot a tank with a sub machinegun it isn't going to damage it.
-It also does not change that the books say that tanks from rifts are superior to modern tanks. Going so far as to say that body armor and small arms tech has advance to such a point as to allow a foot soldier to stand toe to toe with a tank and have a fair fight. To change it from the way it is makes it so infantry can't stand toe to toe with a tank and have a fair chance to win or lose. Now the toe to toe thing could be read in combination with the rifts tank is better than an M1 and the tanks they were talking about standing against was our modern tanks. However, the phrasing didn't say in such a way as to refer to the tanks of their past/our present, but to the tanks that were the contemporary of the infantry armor.
-Just go back to original MDC and burst rules.

What are your points?
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

See, you quoted me, but I don't see how you responded to what I said. I think we'll have to leave this one be. Or at least I will.
Mark Hall wrote:Y'all seem to assume that Palladium books are written with the same exacting precision with which they are analyzed. I think that is... ambitious.

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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Alrik Vas wrote:See, you quoted me, but I don't see how you responded to what I said. I think we'll have to leave this one be. Or at least I will.

And there you go, forgetting to put something designating to whom your speaking. I did respond to you. I provided my point from which I was speaking showing that you and I are apparently having two different conversations. You jumped in on the conversation me and say256 were having about whether or not .50 cals. SHOULD be able to do MD. I said that they should still be treated like they were in the old rules because a weapon that can't do MD with a single shot shouldn't be able to do MD. You came in with well with x ammo a single round does MD, which is where you removed yourself from mine and say256s conversation and from there continued to pull further away by adding additional superfluous information, as if trying to muddy the water.
:thwak: you some might think you're a :clown: but you're cool in book :ok: :thwak:--Mecha-Viper
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Zer0 Kay is my hero. --Atramentus
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Alrik Vas wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Alrik Vas wrote:The damages for DU and HEAP would be different. Are you familiar with it, or did palladium forget that kind of ammunition?

Though I could see how someone would rationalize their damage as the same.

To me, this comes back to a lack of satisfactory rules for armor and weapons that defeatit. Hence this thread of house rules.


WHAT? It's hard to tell who your responding to without quoting the post or using a @ place and here to designate who your post is at.


I'm familiar with most ammo types and why many don't work on the M1 and similar CHOBAM armor and reactive armors and why tank armor is angled, and it isn't to deflect bullets.

Regardless of the specialty ammo MGs are statted with FMJ (standard) rounds (assumed because nowhere soes it say special tounds are used) not specialized ammo. I don't recall PB statting out HEAP or HESH/HEP or APFSDS rounds (granted those last two are usually large gun munitions like tanks) or any other special ammo besides DU and ramjets.


1. First, you state repeatedly that the ammunition is FMJ, which i've never refuted and I don't know why you keep bringing it up when i'm not talking about standard rounds.

2. Then you go and start talking about real life to back up your side, but the game mechanics don't support real life.

3. Though I'm aware that in real life, even a high explosive round from a .50 won't damage an M1A1 significantly, if at all. But in the game, it's all SDC or MDC. When you do 100 SDC, you deal MDC. So if you have single, .50 rounds that can deal 100+ damage on average, you have a mega damage SDC machinegun.

This is something that I disagree with. I'm not going to quote myself, but I'll say it again. The damage rules are unsatisfactory to me. I'm more inclined to agree with your assessment, ZeroKay. I just don't think the game rules support it, which is why this thread exists.


Numbering mine
1. I keep bringing up standard FMJ because.you jumped in on a conversation about a weapon using standard/FMJ rounds and inserted special munition types going further off the rail bringing in ammo types that don't exist in game.

2. My comments on "real life" are the arguments from the original MD rules.

3. Sure an mg that does MD can do MD... Duh. The problem is that your solution to mgs can do MD with a single shot does so less than 3 in 10 times... That is not average and so by your arguement shouldn't do MD even with DU because it isn't its average.

There specifically responded to each of your items... Kinda funny how it looks a lot like the previous post where you said I didn't respond to your post.
:thwak: you some might think you're a :clown: but you're cool in book :ok: :thwak:--Mecha-Viper
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Zer0 Kay is my hero. --Atramentus
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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Alrik Vas wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Alrik Vas wrote:The damages for DU and HEAP would be different. Are you familiar with it, or did palladium forget that kind of ammunition?

Though I could see how someone would rationalize their damage as the same.

To me, this comes back to a lack of satisfactory rules for armor and weapons that defeatit. Hence this thread of house rules.


WHAT? It's hard to tell who your responding to without quoting the post or using a @ place and here to designate who your post is at.


I'm familiar with most ammo types and why many don't work on the M1 and similar CHOBAM armor and reactive armors and why tank armor is angled, and it isn't to deflect bullets.

Regardless of the specialty ammo MGs are statted with FMJ (standard) rounds (assumed because nowhere soes it say special tounds are used) not specialized ammo. I don't recall PB statting out HEAP or HESH/HEP or APFSDS rounds (granted those last two are usually large gun munitions like tanks) or any other special ammo besides DU and ramjets.


1. First, you state repeatedly that the ammunition is FMJ, which i've never refuted and I don't know why you keep bringing it up when i'm not talking about standard rounds.

2. Then you go and start talking about real life to back up your side, but the game mechanics don't support real life.

3. Though I'm aware that in real life, even a high explosive round from a .50 won't damage an M1A1 significantly, if at all. But in the game, it's all SDC or MDC. When you do 100 SDC, you deal MDC. So if you have single, .50 rounds that can deal 100+ damage on average, you have a mega damage SDC machinegun.

This is something that I disagree with. I'm not going to quote myself, but I'll say it again. The damage rules are unsatisfactory to me. I'm more inclined to agree with your assessment, ZeroKay. I just don't think the game rules support it, which is why this thread exists.


Numbering mine
1. I keep bringing up standard FMJ because.you jumped in on a conversation about a weapon using standard/FMJ rounds and inserted special munition types going further off the rail bringing in ammo types that don't exist in game.

2. My comments on "real life" are the arguments from the original MD rules.

3. Sure an mg that does MD can do MD... Duh. The problem is that your solution to mgs can do MD with a single shot does so less than 3 in 10 times... That is not average and so by your arguement shouldn't do MD even with DU because it isn't its average.

There specifically responded to each of your items... Kinda funny how it looks a lot like the previous post where you said I didn't respond to your post.


It's like you didn't read my post...or you just disregarded enough of it so you could make an argument. :?
Mark Hall wrote:Y'all seem to assume that Palladium books are written with the same exacting precision with which they are analyzed. I think that is... ambitious.

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Re: Damage House Rules

Unread post by say652 »

Or just modify the 50 cal mg to fire mdc rounds. Spooky right. A superior alternative to a railgun imo.
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