Fallen Cosmo-Knight

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Re: Fallen Cosmo-Knight

Unread post by say652 »

I believe 2D6 per level. As thus is half of a ck's mdc.
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Re: Fallen Cosmo-Knight

Unread post by Tor »

The impression I get is that MDC/PPE freezes at half whatever they built to. This way, the longer you were a Cosmo-Knight before falling, the stronger you'll be.

PPE can advance more via a magical class but MDC doesn't.
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Re: Fallen Cosmo-Knight

Unread post by Hotrod »

I'm not sure that straight-up random insanity is the way to go. While Fallen will certainly feel a sense of loss, their memories of their Cosmo time are fuzzy and dream-like. No alignment shift should be needed, either. I've been contemplating methods by which a Cosmo Knight, through no particular moral fault of his/her own, might have his/her power taken away. Magic and psionics seem the most likely catalysts, since both offer a means for bad guys to take control of a Cosmo-Knight and do bad things with their powers.
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Re: Fallen Cosmo-Knight

Unread post by Tor »

Alignment drops are not required, just that an alignment change from the 2 stated will definitely cause one.

Falling can occur without alignment drops just by breaking the code, breaking the code is easier than breaking alignment.
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Re: Fallen Cosmo-Knight

Unread post by say652 »

Prime example of falling.

Shield the Brave. (Yea I like cheesy names) captured a diabolical enemy general. After ge was turned over to the marshals he defected and switched sides, and used that evil genius to lead several ally victories.
When Shield found out he wasn't dead, he made him dead. Even though he killed a "badguy" he still fell. Why?? Because the badguy was now on the "goodguy" team.
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Re: Fallen Cosmo-Knight

Unread post by Tor »

I'm not sure killing a monster allied with good breaks the code or alignment though... was he unarmed?
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Re: Fallen Cosmo-Knight

Unread post by smashed »

As I've always read it, you'll still get 2d6 MDC/lvl since that's half the Cosmo Knights. I interpret this way since it specifically says your PPE is halved, but you don't get more unless you go a magic route.

For the skills I read it as applying to all skills, yes the -20% is large, but remember, when you fall, you can fall from any level of experience and then you start as a level one Fallen Knight, so there is the potential to have even higher starting skills then most 1st level characters.

In the past I have used a house rule to help out Cosmo Knight that fall earlier then level four (and takes into account skills that don't progress 5% per level) you could simply have those 4 levels of skill percentages, not allowing it to go below 1.
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Re: Fallen Cosmo-Knight

Unread post by Tor »

The book says if you start out Fallen then you can be level 2 or 3, as opposed to 1 or 2, so not that much higher, not to offset the penalty.
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Re: Fallen Cosmo-Knight

Unread post by Vrykolas2k »

Tor wrote:The book says if you start out Fallen then you can be level 2 or 3, as opposed to 1 or 2, so not that much higher, not to offset the penalty.



True.
I also don't assign the penalty to new skills, just the ones existing when the character fell.
I also allow them to gain 2d6 MD per level.
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Re: Fallen Cosmo-Knight

Unread post by Tor »

If they want more MDC they gotta become witches or get bio-wizardry to me :D
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Re: Fallen Cosmo-Knight

Unread post by say652 »

A fallen knight mindmelter seems pretty fearsome to me. Jussayin.

Add in an Elom a chest amalgamate and wings fir flight. They get real scary. Increased pb to 26. Angelic appearance. The cosmic weapon strategic use of psionics.

Convince the locals you're a force of good and lead them right to the slave barge without a fight lol.
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Re: Fallen Cosmo-Knight

Unread post by eliakon »

say652 wrote:A fallen knight mindmelter seems pretty fearsome to me. Jussayin.

Add in an Elom a chest amalgamate and wings fir flight. They get real scary. Increased pb to 26. Angelic appearance. The cosmic weapon strategic use of psionics.

Convince the locals you're a force of good and lead them right to the slave barge without a fight lol.

Errrrmmmm Elom can't take supernatural hosts. Ergo no Elom for you!
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Re: Fallen Cosmo-Knight

Unread post by Tor »

Whether or not Fallen Cosmo-Knights are supernatural beings has not been clearly established. All we know for certain is that Cosmo-Knights and Demon Knights are supernatural.
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Re: Fallen Cosmo-Knight

Unread post by eliakon »

Tor wrote:Whether or not Fallen Cosmo-Knights are supernatural beings has not been clearly established. All we know for certain is that Cosmo-Knights and Demon Knights are supernatural.

Is there then any reason to assume that they are remade BACK into non-supernatural beings? The whole reborn as supernatural beings thing is pretty explicit....it would seem that an equally large state change would have to be spelled out rather than just assumed. Especailly when the fallen section lists the OTHER changes, with out listing that it DOES change from supernatural to non-supernatural the presumption would seem that....you don't change things unless they are mentioned.
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Re: Fallen Cosmo-Knight

Unread post by Tor »

There is a reason to assume that, yes, because they are no longer full Cosmo-Knights, have their attributes slashed, lose theri super-healing, have less damage and PPE capacity, lose their flight and energy blast, lose their armor, etc.

There's pretty much 'you lose everything Cosmo Knight except' kind of presentation here. Were their being supernatural mentioned under their OCC numbering there would be no argument, but it's mentioned in the introductory discussion text so it's vaguer.

One thing I did point out before is that if Fallen are supernatural, this means supernatural beings can be made into Demon Knights, in which case, why wouldn't the Demon Lords just change other already-loyal demons into the Demon Knights?
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Re: Fallen Cosmo-Knight

Unread post by say652 »

Warrior of Valhalla makes up for some of the power they lose. +400mdc at least and psionics are welcome.
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Re: Fallen Cosmo-Knight

Unread post by eliakon »

Tor wrote:There is a reason to assume that, yes, because they are no longer full Cosmo-Knights, have their attributes slashed, lose theri super-healing, have less damage and PPE capacity, lose their flight and energy blast, lose their armor, etc.

There's pretty much 'you lose everything Cosmo Knight except' kind of presentation here. Were their being supernatural mentioned under their OCC numbering there would be no argument, but it's mentioned in the introductory discussion text so it's vaguer.

One thing I did point out before is that if Fallen are supernatural, this means supernatural beings can be made into Demon Knights, in which case, why wouldn't the Demon Lords just change other already-loyal demons into the Demon Knights?

Who knows? Maybe they just don't want to?
I don't see how losing a number of things, that are explicitly enumerated also means that you lose some other stuff, might as well assume that they all turn into elves right? I mean it doesn't say they DONT turn into elves.....
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Re: Fallen Cosmo-Knight

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Good solid character and an interesting back story.
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Re: Fallen Cosmo-Knight

Unread post by say652 »

So a fallen Cosmoknight Mindmelter Warrior of Valhalla is a perfectly legal player character.

Yea thats awesome.
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Re: Fallen Cosmo-Knight

Unread post by eliakon »

say652 wrote:So a fallen Cosmoknight Mindmelter Warrior of Valhalla is a perfectly legal player character.

Yea thats awesome.

IF your GM rules that cosmo-knights are still human, and if they have "worshiped Odin for a long time" sure. IF your GM decides that being turned into a cosmo-knight means your no longer human (or elven, or wulfen, or....) then nope, no Berserkarang for you.
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Re: Fallen Cosmo-Knight

Unread post by say652 »

I wouldn't use a Berzerker. In the fallen CosK description it lists warrior of valhalla as well as witch as viable career alternatives.
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Re: Fallen Cosmo-Knight

Unread post by Riftmaker »

Id love some fall knight quick roll rules having to make a cosmo knight then de power it takes forever
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Re: Fallen Cosmo-Knight

Unread post by eliakon »

say652 wrote:I wouldn't use a Berzerker. In the fallen CosK description it lists warrior of valhalla as well as witch as viable career alternatives.

Then yes, assuming you use the multi-classing rules, you could become a psudeo-mind-melter, and then switch into a warrior of Valhalla. But you cant do both at once.
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Re: Fallen Cosmo-Knight

Unread post by say652 »

Eli.
You are incorrect.
Your race is fallen knight.
Mindmelter your pcc warrior of valhalla is an add on.

Or more pacifically.
Your fallen knight is now a Mindmelter Warrior of Valhalla.
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Re: Fallen Cosmo-Knight

Unread post by eliakon »

say652 wrote:Eli.
You are incorrect.
Your race is fallen knight.
Mindmelter your pcc warrior of valhalla is an add on.

Or more pacifically.
Your fallen knight is now a Mindmelter Warrior of Valhalla.

Hrmmm, your right. *humbly admits error* so he is, so he is.
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Re: Fallen Cosmo-Knight

Unread post by Tor »

eliakon wrote:I don't see how losing a number of things, that are explicitly enumerated also means that you lose some other stuff
We're told they lose all Cosmo-Knight powers. Being supernatural could be seen as a type of power, it's a gray area.

eliakon wrote:might as well assume that they all turn into elves right? I mean it doesn't say they DONT turn into elves.....
Your example does not approach equivalency.

Another point is that Fallen Knights have become Cosmo-Knights again, and supernatural beings have not become Cosmo-Knights, therefore Fallen can't be supernatural.

say652 wrote:So a fallen Cosmoknight Mindmelter Warrior of Valhalla is a perfectly legal player character. Yea thats awesome.
Odin only makes men-at-arms into WoV, mind melters are not men-at-arms. Plus you're not a full mind-melter (you don't get the cool bonuses Psyscape added for them) you just get the powers. Although they are still ex-knights so it remains somewhat gray, again.

say652 wrote:Your race is fallen knight. Mindmelter your pcc warrior of valhalla is an add on. Or more pacifically. Your fallen knight is now a Mindmelter Warrior of Valhalla.
Wrong say. When Phase World was written, Mind Melter was an RCC in Rifts (it is now an OCC per RUE) but what it's called doesn't matter, because Fallen Cosmo-Knights do not actually become Mind Melters or Line Walkers. They only get the powes/spells. The difference is the lack of special OCC abilities. This was only really a penalty for Ley Line Walkers since Melters lacked special powers at the time, but it became a penalty for them too per the Psyscape update which gave Melters special bonuses.

Although it says Fallen Knights only gain PPE when they select a magical OCC, since they do not actually select the magical OCC of Ley Line Walker, this could only be referring to Witches, the only magical OCC they are explicitly made able to select.

Warrior of Valhalla is a modification made to men-at-arms OCCs. One could interpret that as modifyign the Fallen Knight class itself (which uses the Promethean experience table per later errata, we originally were not told what to use)i.

What's left a bit confusing is whether or not the WoV modification could happen simultaneously with developing magic or psi. Odin normally doesn't empower spellcasters/psychics but that may have referred to guys who were solely that, ie non-warriors, as opposed to warriors who also had spellcasting powers (for example, would Odin be disgusted with Battle Magi and not want them as Warriors? they're basically both MaA and PoM)
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Re: Fallen Cosmo-Knight

Unread post by Svartalf »

Riftmaker wrote:Id love some fall knight quick roll rules having to make a cosmo knight then de power it takes forever

That's part of da fun, feel the pain of the fall.
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Re: Fallen Cosmo-Knight

Unread post by Vrykolas2k »

eliakon wrote:
say652 wrote:So a fallen Cosmoknight Mindmelter Warrior of Valhalla is a perfectly legal player character.

Yea thats awesome.

IF your GM rules that cosmo-knights are still human, and if they have "worshiped Odin for a long time" sure. IF your GM decides that being turned into a cosmo-knight means your no longer human (or elven, or wulfen, or....) then nope, no Berserkarang for you.




Well since it's an OCC... ya, still human or whatever.
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Re: Fallen Cosmo-Knight

Unread post by Vrykolas2k »

say652 wrote:Eli.
You are incorrect.
Your race is fallen knight.
Mindmelter your pcc warrior of valhalla is an add on.

Or more pacifically.
Your fallen knight is now a Mindmelter Warrior of Valhalla.



No, your OCC is Fallen Knight, your race is whatever it was before you took the Cosm-Knight OCC.
Just like if you went Ley Line Walker, Vagabond or some other OCC.
Eyes without life, maggot-ridden corpses, mountains of skulls... these are a few of my favourite things.

I am the first angel, loved once above all others...

Light a man a fire, and he's warm for a day; light a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.

Turning the other cheek just gets you slapped harder.

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Re: Fallen Cosmo-Knight

Unread post by Tor »

Or one of the various OCCs that turn you MDC, like Lord Magus, various Chaos Earth classes, Night Witches, etc...

Hey I've been wondering about something... if you are a Cosmo-Knight with only 1 MDC (say you burn off all but that building a force-field as strong as possible with your weapon, presuming it is impossible to go to 0 or you would die) if you Fell would you have 50 SDC?
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