Kittani Energy Lance power source

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:57 pm

GMG p146: "Payload: 40 shots; recharges after four hours"

How does it recharge?

It's not listed as being techno-wizardry like the items that follow it. There's no mention of a nuclear reactor (and at 20lbs, I'd be shocked if it contained a nuclear reactor).

I looked at Atlantis and it says the same thing with no mention of being TW or anything exotic.

--flatline

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:23 pm

flatline wrote:GMG p146: "Payload: 40 shots; recharges after four hours"

How does it recharge?

It's not listed as being techno-wizardry like the items that follow it. There's no mention of a nuclear reactor (and at 20lbs, I'd be shocked if it contained a nuclear reactor).

I looked at Atlantis and it says the same thing with no mention of being TW or anything exotic.

--flatline

Awesome Alien Technology <TM> When the plot calls for the impossible, the Impossible call for AAT. AAT, its where its at.

drewkitty ~..~ · Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:38 pm

A small built in power generator.

If I had to guess a Beta-Voltic power cell. Which in slang is called a nuclear battery.

You see small power sources built into the Mindworks smallarms also.

glitterboy2098 · Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:48 pm

yeah. .a nuclear battery feeding a capacitor system. if it recharges 40 shots after 4 hours, that's about 1 shot every 6 minutes. which is a long time in combat, but pretty darn handy.

Svartalf · Unread post by **Svartalf** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:48 pm

Drew said it better than I could, given that Kittani are much more advanced than earth tech, a micro power generator is wholly within their abilities.

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:18 pm

glitterboy2098 wrote:yeah. .a nuclear battery feeding a capacitor system. if it recharges 40 shots after 4 hours, that's about 1 shot every 6 minutes. which is a long time in combat, but pretty darn handy.

I'm going to out on a limb and say that 40 6d6MD shots is more than 1 e-clip's worth of energy, but if we assume that it's exactly 1 e-clip's worth of energy (assumed to be 100MJ based on previous threads), then to recharge 100MJ over 4 hours would require a nuclear battery with an output of 100e6/(4*60*60) = 6944W or about 7kW.

This is not my area of expertise, but according to Wikipedia (article = Radioisotope thermoelectric generator), in order to produce 7kW, it would take at least (depending on efficiency of energy capture)...
...13kg of Plutonium
...or 15kg of Strontium
...or 0.05kg of Polonium, but you'd have to replace the Polonium regularly since its half-life is only 138 days

So unless the Kitanni are using elements that don't exist on our periodic table, I don't think it's a radioisotope thermoelectric generator type nuclear battery.

A nuclear battery could also be based on Betavoltaics, but I can't find any energy density numbers for this type of cell. However, the only existing Betavoltaic battery (the "Betacel") works on the nanoWatt to microWatt scale, so it would seem that this type of cell is considerably less energy dense than the thermoelectric type cell.

I can't find any other kind of nuclear battery, but my google fu is admittedly weak.

Anyways, it seems unlikely to me that a nuclear battery could be part of a 20lb weapon and have a 7kW+ output.

--flatline

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:59 pm

flatline wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:yeah. .a nuclear battery feeding a capacitor system. if it recharges 40 shots after 4 hours, that's about 1 shot every 6 minutes. which is a long time in combat, but pretty darn handy.

I'm going to out on a limb and say that 40 6d6MD shots is more than 1 e-clip's worth of energy, but if we assume that it's exactly 1 e-clip's worth of energy (assumed to be 100MJ based on previous threads), then to recharge 100MJ over 4 hours would require a nuclear battery with an output of 100e6/(4*60*60) = 6944W or about 7kW.

This is not my area of expertise, but according to Wikipedia (article = Radioisotope thermoelectric generator), in order to produce 7kW, it would take at least (depending on efficiency of energy capture)...
...13kg of Plutonium
...or 15kg of Strontium
...or 0.05kg of Polonium, but you'd have to replace the Polonium regularly since its half-life is only 138 days

So unless the Kitanni are using elements that don't exist on our periodic table, I don't think it's a radioisotope thermoelectric generator type nuclear battery.

A nuclear battery could also be based on Betavoltaics, but I can't find any energy density numbers for this type of cell. However, the only existing Betavoltaic battery (the "Betacel") works on the nanoWatt to microWatt scale, so it would seem that this type of cell is considerably less energy dense than the thermoelectric type cell.

I can't find any other kind of nuclear battery, but my google fu is admittedly weak.

Anyways, it seems unlikely to me that a nuclear battery could be part of a 20lb weapon and have a 7kW+ output.

--flatline

That's the problem when you try to apply real world physics to a game, especially one that doesn't even PRETEND to be a simulation.
Its really simple AAT. The tech works because it works. If its a nuclear power plant its the same sort of miracle plant that is prolific in the setting.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:17 pm

flatline wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:yeah. .a nuclear battery feeding a capacitor system. if it recharges 40 shots after 4 hours, that's about 1 shot every 6 minutes. which is a long time in combat, but pretty darn handy.

I'm going to out on a limb and say that 40 6d6MD shots is more than 1 e-clip's worth of energy, but if we assume that it's exactly 1 e-clip's worth of energy (assumed to be 100MJ based on previous threads), then to recharge 100MJ over 4 hours would require a nuclear battery with an output of 100e6/(4*60*60) = 6944W or about 7kW.

This is not my area of expertise, but according to Wikipedia (article = Radioisotope thermoelectric generator), in order to produce 7kW, it would take at least (depending on efficiency of energy capture)...
...13kg of Plutonium
...or 15kg of Strontium
...or 0.05kg of Polonium, but you'd have to replace the Polonium regularly since its half-life is only 138 days

So unless the Kitanni are using elements that don't exist on our periodic table, I don't think it's a radioisotope thermoelectric generator type nuclear battery.

A nuclear battery could also be based on Betavoltaics, but I can't find any energy density numbers for this type of cell. However, the only existing Betavoltaic battery (the "Betacel") works on the nanoWatt to microWatt scale, so it would seem that this type of cell is considerably less energy dense than the thermoelectric type cell.

I can't find any other kind of nuclear battery, but my google fu is admittedly weak.

Anyways, it seems unlikely to me that a nuclear battery could be part of a 20lb weapon and have a 7kW+ output.

--flatline

Given they're Phase World level roughly maybe it's an anti-matter power supply? It's not like they aren't fairly common in Phase World.

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:37 pm

The Laser Wrist Blasters (GMG p146) have something similar: "Payload: 60 blasts, backpack recharges completely in four hours" but the description specifically mentions "with a magic power pack worn on the back".

In Atlantis, the laser wrist blasters are mentioned before the energy lance. Maybe the energy lance was supposed to use the same magic power pack but it was omitted from the description since they thought it would be obvious as it came right after the laser wrist blasters...but then GMG was compiled and the order was flipped...

--flatline

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:43 pm

flatline wrote:The Laser Wrist Blasters (GMG p146) have something similar: "Payload: 60 blasts, backpack recharges completely in four hours" but the description specifically mentions "with a magic power pack worn on the back".

In Atlantis, the laser wrist blasters are mentioned before the energy lance. Maybe the energy lance was supposed to use the same magic power pack but it was omitted from the description since they thought it would be obvious as it came right after the laser wrist blasters...but then GMG was compiled and the order was flipped...

--flatline

I doubt that the Technological Kittani are using TW. Especially since the Blasters and the Lance are in different sections of the book.
I just think its an example of "the Kittani have super duper advanced technology and can make leet stuff with it."

glitterboy2098 · Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:54 pm

the kittani don't mess weith magic themselves.. but nothing would stop them from hooking their gear up to a TW device that generate electrical power.

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:02 am

Is it possible that we are seeing an example of wireless power transfer from the mecha (or even some other remote generator) itself to the pod (ie the Lance)?

Svartalf · Unread post by **Svartalf** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:45 pm

No, the lance is an independent weapon and not at all necessarily tied to a mecha... the generator is in the lance itself.

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:44 pm

As the spectre of Zero Point Energy rears its ugly head....

"Yes, we'd try to adapt it to other systems as well, but the guy who designed the power system for the Lance? Well, the Splugorth killed him for some reason or other. Don't ask me the what-for, but rumor is he stepped on the Big Eyeball's nether tentacles. Anyways, they also destroyed his notes, saying something about 'too-too clever monkey', and every attempt to reverse engineer the things to see if we can't scale them up or attach them to over systems results in either a fizzle or a ginormous boom. You know that volcanic island off the east coast? It wasn't volcanic a month ago, that's how ginormous. So we just follow the blueprints and churn out the Lances and don't go poking around inside the black box. Bad things happen to those who do."

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:27 am

Svartalf wrote:No, the lance is an independent weapon and not at all necessarily tied to a mecha... the generator is in the lance itself.

But where does it explicitly state this? The Serpent PA's Axe draws energy from the mecha, and they make it available for seperate purchase with an Eclip. So the Kittani do have the technology to transfer power in this manner.

Svartalf · Unread post by **Svartalf** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:05 am

The lance is described independently from any PA or mech, and while the regenerative capacity is specified, there is no mention of any external power source for it. Ergo, the generator is integral to the lance and it's not an external appurtenance or link to an external source.

WHEN used as part of a mech, maybe there's an energy link between the two (which would turn the payload to virtually infinite), but as described as an independent weapon, it has its own generator.

Vrykolas2k · Unread post by **Vrykolas2k** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:25 am

Makes ya wonder why you have to have e-clips in the Three Galaxies and so on, hm?

Svartalf · Unread post by **Svartalf** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:46 am

Secret Kittani tech, maybe you can get some copies of other weapons by them with self renewing generators? though the description of such in Atlantis does not mention them doing such mods.

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:53 am

I like taalismans suggestion that its a Black Box. This powersource works perfectly for the specific needs of this one weapon, but isn't widely adaptable to other systems. There is also some precident for self charging energy weapons in the various games. Mindwerks rifles come to mind, and are the only RIFTS version I can think of off the top of my head, but I am sure there are others.

Svartalf · Unread post by **Svartalf** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:55 am

NG power packs? but those eventually run out.

and Yeah, the too clever monkey is the only explanation why master technicians like the Kittani would not be able to replicate the tech on other devices... unless maybe they could, but they are forbidden by the SploogMasters to do so on anything else than the traditional energy lances.

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:27 pm

It's tempting to simply convert the thing to use e-clips rather than posit technology that isn't described.

--flatline

Alrik Vas · Unread post by **Alrik Vas** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:37 pm

It's also tempting to convert all Kittani weapons to use this model and make them truly terrifying like they're supposed to be. I like to think of the implications of what they could do with that tech.

Svartalf · Unread post by **Svartalf** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:38 pm

flatline wrote:It's tempting to simply convert the thing to use e-clips rather than posit technology that isn't described.

--flatline

and destroy the view of Kittani as above the curve tech masters ? (definitely above Rifts earth tech, and well at the level of 3G tech... hard to be above the likes of Naruni)

Alrik Vas · Unread post by **Alrik Vas** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:39 pm

Svartalf wrote:(definitely above Rifts earth tech, and well at the level of 3G tech... hard to be above the likes of Naruni)

Unless you're the NGR from Triax 2. :roll:

Svartalf · Unread post by **Svartalf** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:41 pm

Alrik Vas wrote:It's also tempting to convert all Kittani weapons to use this model and make them truly terrifying like they're supposed to be. I like to think of the implications of what they could do with that tech.

Make the Splugorth even more terrifying with armies of Kittani that can strike, fall back, and come back a couple hours later with a full ammo load, rinse and repeat till the foe is depleted or the losses are deemed enough to withdraw for good?

Svartalf · Unread post by **Svartalf** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:42 pm

Alrik Vas wrote:
Svartalf wrote:(definitely above Rifts earth tech, and well at the level of 3G tech... hard to be above the likes of Naruni)
Unless you're the NGR from Triax 2.

I don't have Triax 2 ... the tech level is that far above the Americas and Japan?

Alrik Vas · Unread post by **Alrik Vas** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:44 pm

Eh, not to get too far off topic, but they have higher damaging weapons that have big bore style knockdown, they have firearms that critical on 19 and 20, better camouflage armor than naruni and they have some FF's now. Their basic body armor is essentially now an exoskeleton that doesn't require a battery...so on and so forth.

Svartalf · Unread post by **Svartalf** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:47 pm

:facepalm: OK... so the Kittani are roughly at the level of Triax now...

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:59 pm

Svartalf wrote:The lance is described independently from any PA or mech, and while the regenerative capacity is specified, there is no mention of any external power source for it. Ergo, the generator is integral to the lance and it's not an external appurtenance or link to an external source.

WHEN used as part of a mech, maybe there's an energy link between the two (which would turn the payload to virtually infinite), but as described as an independent weapon, it has its own generator.

I am aware of the basic descriptions, but it isn't specified that their is a generator there in either entry. It could merely be a bad copy-paste job in the later section.

Svartalf wrote:Secret Kittani tech, maybe you can get some copies of other weapons by them with self renewing generators? though the description of such in Atlantis does not mention them doing such mods.

Well Atlantis does offer such a mod in WB2 (it's bio-wizard based utilizing an Eye of Eylor IIRC, but it grants an unlimited payload).

Svartalf wrote:unless maybe they could, but they are forbidden by the SploogMasters to do so on anything else than the traditional energy lances.

The Splurgoth ARE holding the Kittani back, so it is entirely possible. Being in business though means they might want to keep it off the market since Eclips (or other Conventional rounds) likely result in higher profits and additional purchases (adding to profits).

Vrykolas2k wrote:Makes ya wonder why you have to have e-clips in the Three Galaxies and so on, hm?

Eclip producers making sure they have steady business. It might also be more cost effective.

flatline wrote:It's tempting to simply convert the thing to use e-clips rather than posit technology that isn't described

Well the weapon is already setup for Eclips. It just has a charging system, which one can also take from the Serpent PA's Energy Axe IMHO and be done with it.

Svartalf · Unread post by **Svartalf** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:14 pm

I doubt it's a bad copy paste, because , if I looked up properly, neither the Manling nor the Equestrian armors use the lance, and the Serpent uses the Plasma Axe which does not suffer from that problem.

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:24 pm

Realizing just how advanced the tech of races like this makes it all the scarier when those JU aliens are better than them and Phase World and all we got was a slight taste of their abilities based on scrounging for parts.

grandmaster z0b · Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:32 am

It is an oddity. It was originally listed in WB2: Atlantis and only as a weapon for the Equestrian Power Armor rather than a stand alone unit. It's unlikely to be hooked directly into the armor's power source however as the other energy weapons are specifically mentioned to be :

"The weapon is hooked directly to the armor's nuclear power supply, eliminating the need of an external power pack."

Maybe it's some sort of wirelessly charging battery that only works with the armor's power supply? Or maybe it actually needs to be plugged into a power supply when the battery runs out and that takes 4 hours?

Also now that I've just looked at it, does the lance also get the "Sensor Bonuses: +2 to strike with all long-range weapons." as well as the +2 it already gets or is that the same bonus listed twice?

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:09 pm

Rappanui wrote:Nothing in triax ii is actually "superior" just better options, Bigger units.

The 2nd Dominator Devastator sure seemed superior to the original in my view.

dreicunan · Unread post by **dreicunan** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:49 pm

I'm voting for a miniature giant space hamster on a wheel inside the black box that slowly moves the same plunger system from the laser bow to charge one shot every six minutes.

Vrykolas2k · Unread post by **Vrykolas2k** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:54 pm

Tor wrote:
Rappanui wrote:Nothing in triax ii is actually "superior" just better options, Bigger units.

The 2nd Dominator Devastator sure seemed superior to the original in my view.

And yet it's guns are still less powerful than what an infantryman can field.

Slight001 · Unread post by **Slight001** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:12 am

Doesn't the devastator 2 have a pair of boom guns? IIRC they were arm mounted.

Killer Cyborg · Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:15 am

It is powered by Love.

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:47 pm

Vrykolas2k wrote:yet it's guns are still less powerful than what an infantryman can field.

What are you referring to? That SA rifle better than a boomgun that uses an e-clip?

I could have sworn the new Devastator's gun could do damage in the x100 ranges.

Slight001 · Unread post by **Slight001** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:57 am

Only on a crit can it hit so hard. Most of the time its only IIRC 1D6x10 for a gun that is bigger then a Super-SAMAS.

Tinker Dragoon · Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:14 pm

That's for a low-powered blast. It's 2D6x10 for a full-power blast, with a range of 8000 ft., making it comparable to the Shemarrian rail gun (though, admittedly, that still seems a mite underpowered). I'm not sure how to interpret the critical damage, though; is it supposed to inflict normal damage x 1.5 on a critical strike, or x 2.5?

grandmaster z0b · Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:46 pm

Even then I think the author hinted that the damage had been significantly nerfed in the editing process. I would just chuck an extra 0 on the damage of that gun

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:10 pm

grandmaster z0b wrote: does the lance also get the "Sensor Bonuses: +2 to strike with all long-range weapons." as well as the +2 it already gets or is that the same bonus listed twice?

It gets both, they are different, they stack to +4. The +2 to all long from the PA itself would apply to the mini-missiles and rocket shield, which do not have their own bonuses. The energy lance and rail gun and pulse cannon bonuses are from the weapons themselves and stack with the PA's bonus.

Interesting distinction between the Serpent and Equestrian too: if you look under "Hand to Hand Combat" it lists some bonuses as "Hand to Hand Combat Bonuses" for the Serp but "Combat Bonuses" for the Eques, making me wonder if the strike bonus for Eques might apply to ranged but not from the Serp.

It's always an odd distinction... like if HtH bonuses only applied to close-range then would this mean that bonuses to attacks per melee or dodge or roll would only apply to close-range confrontations too? Strange how only striking should get singled-out in house rules to be specially negated here.

Something I have been wondering about the Energy Lance since it is such an uber-weapon (even with all the power-creep, the range is epic) is... would you apply WP Energy Rifle or WP Heavy Energy to it? It's a bit of a vague weapon so I'm not sure. Didn't RUE require you to have a WP to make called shots with something? This explicitly gets a bonus to called shots so presumably a WP for it must exist...