Falling damage

[Soldier of Od]

Hi all,
I took another look at the H.P./S.D.C. damage while inside M.D.C. armour on page 365 of the main book, and I had a little problem with the falling damage. It seems strange to me that just being inside a shell that can't take damage provides so much protection against falling (and crashing etc.). At one point of S.D.C./H.P. damage for every 20ft, a character can fall incredible distances and walk away relatively unscathed. Taking a (relatively) tall iconic building in my home country - the clock tower on the Houses of Parliament commonly know as Big Ben - at 180 feet tall a character falling from the clock face would take only 9 points of damage. Even the weakest of characters has no fear of death. Falling off a proper tall building such as Canary Wharf down the road, at 770ft, the character takes 38 points. A fair whack, yes, but by no means deadly to a lot of characters. Even the mighty Empire State Building at 1250ft results in the fallen character taking 62 points. Probably enough to kill many characters, but just a scratch to others, especially a Juicer or Crazy. Using a rifts equivalent, the skyscrapers in the Chi-Town old burbs may be “as high as 30 storeys”, which means, looking at real world equivalents the tallest are probably around 400ft - just 20 points of damage from falling from the tallest building in Chi-Town. I just find it difficult to imagine someone plummeting a hundred storeys, and getting up and dusting themselves off as if nothing has happened just because they have some armour on. Wouldn't they just be pulped inside their armour? Has anyone else thought the same? Does anyone find while gaming that because of this players have little or no fear of falling and does that impact negatively on the game at all? And have any of you altered the rules to account for this?
Thanks in advance for your input.

[glitterboy2098]

so make falling damage bypass armor. heck, have it bypass armor, and then go strait to HP. death/serious injury from a fall is generally due to internal organs failing from the concussive impact of hitting the ground damaging them. sp it bypassing armor and SDC makes a degree of sense.

[Shark_Force]

yeah, he knows that it's completely illogical. that's what he's asking, is if it's just him, or if everyone else thinks the same.

(and for the record, i personally agree; in fact, i would extend it to certain standard combat manoeuvres personally. your armour can certain stop a punch, but it's not going to help much against the damage of a body flip/throw, maybe reducing it by a point or two at best because it presumably has a thin layer of padding).

ironically, the official rules for pits and other traps make such things inflict more damage to people inside armour than the falling rules would allow as well. so at some point, kevin must have agreed with that point as well

[Tor]

Taking a (relatively) tall iconic building in my home country - the clock tower on the Houses of Parliament commonly know as Big Ben - at 180 feet tall a character falling from the clock face would take only 9 points of damage. Even the weakest of characters has no fear of death.

You can start with as little as 4 HP, are you saying everyone has at least 5 SDC? I could have sworn in RMB that psychics could have as little as 3 and non-MaA could have as little as far. RUE probably changed the category-based SDC to individual amounts though...

I just find it difficult to imagine someone plummeting a hundred storeys, and getting up and dusting themselves off as if nothing has happened just because they have some armour on. Wouldn't they just be pulped inside their armour?

Dat MDC armor is just magical.

I am kind of wondering how to deal with people wearing Cyber-Armor though. I assume the reduced damage from falls would only apply to full environmental?

[Alrik Vas]

Roll full damage from a fall, then let them reduce from Roll with Impact if it's under a certain distance, then reduce by half for body armor.

I recently had a game where a Rift interefered with a transatlantic flight, the plane was torn apart and the players and crew scattered. Some were gently lowered and teleported by the rift, others fell to their deaths while a few teleported to only about sixty or so feet above the treeline below. I took it all into account and one guy fell the longest distance, but i rolled crap on damage and he was basically fine. Another fell about 50ft into a tree, then hit several branches on the way down and was in HP by the end of his fall. Body armor 100%, body inside...not so much.

[Tor]

Seeing as how we accelerate at a constant state, I think that means over a given distance we gain a given amount of speed. Since Palladium has speed-based rules, if we figure out the right speed:distance ratio, we could opt to replace the distance-based falling damage with speed-based falling damage.

[Alrik Vas]

I tend to agree, when you're a squishy human, velocity has a greater effect when you suddenly meet a surface that makes you stop.

[Akashic Soldier]

The rules for long distance falls can be found in the parachuting skill in the R:UE. They bypass armor. There are some rules in Splicers for falling from a certain distance if you are an M.D.C. being but after reviewing them they seem to be in relation to a specific piece of equipment. Personally, I just use the "collision" rule of thumb, which is damage from Falls and Collisions inflicts damage on a 1 for 1 basis. If you would take 1 Hit Point from a Fall and you are a Mega-Damage being, you take 1 M.D.

Otherwise, lesser M.D.C. beings can easily shrug off falling from the stratosphere and I do not think that was ever the intended purpose. Its the same with sonic weaponry. Being M.D.C. doesn't make you immune to the penalties inflicted by sonic attacks (they still hurt and can render you unconscious) so they should be able to inflict damage normally on a 1 for 1 scale.

[Tor]

If you don't like the ratio between SDC and MDC you can easily change that, but an MDC creature shouldn't take 100MD from a fall that does merely 1 MD to an SDC creature, unless they only have external MDC like that new symbiote armor in Splynn. If they're normally MDC, that's internal organs and stuff too.

We really just need harsher fall damage.

[Akashic Soldier]

If you don't like the ratio between SDC and MDC you can easily change that, but an MDC creature shouldn't take 100MD from a fall that does merely 1 MD to an SDC creature, unless they only have external MDC like that new symbiote armor in Splynn. If they're normally MDC, that's internal organs and stuff too.

We really just need harsher fall damage.

I don't agree. The trauma suffered from a fall should be equal for both. If you make the falling damage harsher, ordinary humans won't have a "chance" of surviving and that happens in the real world. I do not need to change the rate of S.D.C. damage to M.D.C., I only need to say "You are just as badly messed up from a fall as an S.D.C. person is". That is how collision damage already works. You run over an M.D.C. being they take 1D6 damage for every 10 mph (or there abouts), you run over an S.D.C. person they take 1D6 for every 10 mph over 50 mph (or whatever the formula is). Its nice, its clean, its simple. Yes, this means that cinematiclly running into someone with a hovercycle at top speed is more deadly than being shot with a laser pistol but if you watch the movies it usually is. Now, crushing weights and such inflict S.D.C. and I understand why as you often see guys trapped under things. However, a Fingletooth Carpetbagger should not be able to survive a fall from space just because "it doesn't do enough". Obviously, they're not supposed to be that tough. Shaking off one or two laser blasts and living to tell the tale of it is not the same thing as falling from orbit.

[The Beast]

If you don't like the ratio between SDC and MDC you can easily change that, but an MDC creature shouldn't take 100MD from a fall that does merely 1 MD to an SDC creature, unless they only have external MDC like that new symbiote armor in Splynn. If they're normally MDC, that's internal organs and stuff too.

We really just need harsher fall damage.

I don't agree. The trauma suffered from a fall should be equal for both. If you make the falling damage harsher, ordinary humans won't have a "chance" of surviving and that happens in the real world. I do not need to change the rate of S.D.C. damage to M.D.C., I only need to say "You are just as badly messed up from a fall as an S.D.C. person is". That is how collision damage already works. You run over an M.D.C. being they take 1D6 damage for every 10 mph (or there abouts), you run over an S.D.C. person they take 1D6 for every 10 mph over 50 mph (or whatever the formula is). Its nice, its clean, its simple. Yes, this means that cinematiclly running into someone with a hovercycle at top speed is more deadly than being shot with a laser pistol but if you watch the movies it usually is. Now, crushing weights and such inflict S.D.C. and I understand why as you often see guys trapped under things. However, a Fingletooth Carpetbagger should not be able to survive a fall from space just because "it doesn't do enough". Obviously, they're not supposed to be that tough. Shaking off one or two laser blasts and living to tell the tale of it is not the same thing as falling from orbit.

The problem's not that falling damage doesn't do enough. The problem is that Palladium allows non-supernatural creatures to have natural MDC.

[Tor]

The original problem wasn't even about MDC creatures, it was about how annoying squishies in tin cans could survive epic falls, and we need to enhance the falling damage to account for that.

If you want MDC creatures to be more vulnerable to impact, I suggest you alter the ratio to 1:10 or 1:5 or 1:2 or something. Simply having falls inexplicably do 100x damage to something simply because its MDC doesn't make sense. Falls are not magic.

[Akashic Soldier]

The original problem wasn't even about MDC creatures, it was about how annoying squishies in tin cans could survive epic falls, and we need to enhance the falling damage to account for that.

If you want MDC creatures to be more vulnerable to impact, I suggest you alter the ratio to 1:10 or 1:5 or 1:2 or something. Simply having falls inexplicably do 100x damage to something simply because its MDC doesn't make sense. Falls are not magic.

There is a reason that Dominators use gravity weapons as their weapons of choice. I stand by my previous assessment. After all, as it is written collisions do "damage" that is neither S.D.C. or M.D.C. its just "damage" relative to whatever is taking it. Don't believe me, check the R:UE. Also, this way there is no need for additional rules or epic game revisions. Simply, apply the same rules for collision damage (across the board) to falls. Solved.

Being M.D.C. shouldn't make characters impervious to twisted ankles, broken ribs, concussions, etc. In fact, it obviously doesn't because on the critical injury table in the Rifts: Main Book they are not exempt in anyway. Meaning they can be "messed up" just as easily as anyone else. They can just sustain a greater amount of damage than normal under normal conditions. M.D.C. isn't "magic", its a fundamental law of the universe and still subject to entropy. Being indestructible (different to being M.D.C.) WILL let you fall to the ground from space but I see no reason "being super tough" should mean you are impervious to the effects of colliding with the planet. I mean, just think about it for a minute...

The alternative (doing it Tor's way) means you need new rules, revisions, and re-imagining the entire system while also meaning that even measly M.D.C. creatures like the Uteni can step out of a plane fall to the ground, dust themselves off and walk away without a scratch like they're superman. If that was the intended purpose, why does Triax outfit its robots with parachutes? They could just drop them off no problem, no risk, no damage.

This is faulty logic. As the rules are written they work fine, apply them to S.D.C. and M.D.C. beings equally and "problem" solved. If you don't like that, its a matter of personal preference I think because I've given precedent.

[Alrik Vas]

Well, this just comes down to a different view of how MDC and SDC work.

I guess my question, Akashic, is how does a supernatural creature sprain something? Would a godling twist their ankle the same way a mortal would, on the same surface with the same pressure applied to the same area? Or, would the godling just feel like a chump for their lack of balance, dust themself off and move on, while a normal human would be inhibited?

Because of impacts and physical forces have the same effects, then there's no difference between MDC and SDC at all, really. If a fall is going to rupture your organs regardless, why would it be any different if someone hit you with a baseball bat?

[Akashic Soldier]

Well, this just comes down to a different view of how MDC and SDC work.

I guess my question, Akashic, is how does a supernatural creature sprain something? Would a godling twist their ankle the same way a mortal would, on the same surface with the same pressure applied to the same area?

Even the superheroic "Thor" (a full-blown God) has sprained his ankle, gotten broken ribs, etc. So has the Surfer and Superman too (albeit it, he just reset the broken bone and then super healed it and moved on). However, the lessening of the injury is reflective of the fact that these beings have more M.D.C./S.D.C. than a normal human. The average guy has 2D6+12 S.D.C. while a Demigod has how much M.D.C.? Can't remember the formula off the top of my head but isn't it 100-300?

I think at the end of the day you need to remember that its cinematic. Re-read the "meaning" of damage and Hit Point damage in Conversion Book 1 (Revised). It doesn't talk about M.D.C. but the principle for what it represents is essentially the same, the only difference is that the M.D.C. being is super durable. Keep in mind, that someone with boxing who gets lucky and rolls a knockout punch can still KO a demigod. Being M.D.C. doesn't make you immune to sudden impacts or being dropped, jostled, dizzied, etc. A sudden impact delivered just right is still going to mess them up.

I also want to point out, I have no real issue with a demigod or similar supernatural being falling from orbit and "getting better" with their natural regeneration (something that normally only supernatural beings have at a high rate), its just jumping out of planes and other extreme falls that seem nonsensical. If a creature survives such a fall it should be because of luck or because they are that tough (represented by a high Hit Point/S.D.C. or Natural M.D.C. score). After all, as written if you run into an M.D.C. being with a high speed vehicle they take "damage" the same as an S.D.C. being from the collision. If you use an organic acid on an M.D.C. opponent, they take the same damage.. just as M.D.C.

M.D.C. are just "super hit points". Interestingly, they can fly through walls and such without any real damage at all or have incredibly heavy weights dropped on them and remain unphased. However, if they're struck by an incredible speed or force or strike the ground themselves without any special protection they're going to get messed up. Its just "one of those strange things" about the "science" of M.D.C. that we don't understand. Oh, and a product of game balance I think.

I mean, after all... why use parachutes if you can just jump down in your giant robot and think about it, if you were watching a movie what has more chance of defeating a "bad guy" crashing a high speed vehicle into them followed by a massive explosion or throwing a grenade at them. Both have "approximately" the same UMPH but the "hit by a speeding vehicle/run over by a tank" examples have far more cinematic punch. They're also more difficult to accomplish and cost the hero more, so gambits like this are rewarded more.

CS Grunt #1: "Oh no, the Power Leach has gotten too powerful and our weapons are just feeding it! All hope is lost!"
CS Officer: "Hold your tongue Grunt. I want everyone evacuated from the Deathshead immediately."
CS Grunt #2: "Sir, you don't mean... You can't, you'll be killed."
CS Officer: "Thats an order! This skull is more than just a symbol, its a promise god dammit. Its going to be the last thing this bastard ever sees. Now I want everyone into the evacuation pods ASAP."
CS Grunt #1: "Sir..."
CS Grunt #2: "Sir! Yes Sir!"

*The crew abandon ship and alone and watch from the ground as the Captain impales the Power Leach through the chest with the vehicle and it explodes -- saving Chi-Town from the 400 foot tall monster energy parasite. Everyone cheers. The crew morn the loss of a hero.*

This stuff practically writes itself and makes perfect sense in my mind and is far more "fun" and "cinematic" than "it pings off and does 20 damage. It doesn't even feel it."

[Tor]

Regarding the dominator weapons, MDC guys taking damage is because MDC is impacting MDC, which isn't the same as MDC impacting the ground (SDC).

MDC doesn't make you impervious to such injuries but it DOES mean that it takes more force to inflict those injuries. This does mean they're not going to get a twisted ankle merely from running, unless it's at a VERY high speed or on a high-gravity planet.

The critical injury table occurs when you take serious damage, and while this can happen when impacted by MDC attacks, it won't happen merely from a trip.

I think it's strawmanning to say your opposition is arguing that people are 'impervious' to the effects of colliding with the planet. I'm merely saying that we should calculate the damage, and that we should apply it normally. If the fall damage is 1000 then they would take 10 MD.

Keep in mind there are some high-SDC creatures. A giant or Stoneman with 1000 SDC should be able to take 1/10 as much fall damage as a being with 100 MDC, not 10x as much. Simply applying equal damage to SDC and MDC creatures is wrong, kinetic force is not the same as a phase weapon or a variable magic weapon that tailors damage to structure type.

Your "just have the MDC guys take the same amount" approach effectively makes the 'Universal Balance' spell in Spirit West a great fall survival tool.

collisions do "damage" that is neither S.D.C. or M.D.C. its just "damage" relative to whatever is taking it. Don't believe me, check the R:UE.

Do you mean page 365's aircraft crash landing? That isn't relative damage. It's straight MD (which is ridiculous, it makes unarmored SDC people incapable of surviving airplane crashes).

The 3d6 (or more, if the crash is unsuccessful and you roll more than minimal MD) damage taken by SDC targets is only for those protected by MDC armor. Squishies go splat, even in a successful crash landing (where you presumably land with minimal impact). This is a silly rule and an example of why RUE is a new super-dangerous dimension incompatabible with other realities, where SDC targets can actually survive managed airplane crashes without tank armor.

This also means that for any MDC creatures wearing MDC armor, the armor would absorb the crash and they'd only take the SDC damage, which would be enough to harm an MDC creature.

you need new rules, revisions, and re-imagining the entire system

Why would we need these? They are the original rules of Rifts. All you would do is ignore nonsensical new rules that have MDC creatures taking illogical amounts of damage. The MD-inflicting avalanches in Canada being a good example. Although we could rule that snow is magically empowered by the Inuit gods to keep that in

also meaning that even measly M.D.C. creatures like the Uteni can step out of a plane fall to the ground, dust themselves off and walk away without a scratch like they're superman

Last I checked the Uteni were SDC creatures, I take it a recent book decided to randomly upgrade them?

If you don't want them to be MDC, use the original stats. Any new MDC stats for Uteni could be interpreted as some new Gene-Tech enhancement protocal the company has bought for its agents.

They were originally very high SDC creatures (as much as 400) who could survive pretty high falls, that's just something you gotta deal with bro.

Yes, MDC guys CAN survive huge falls. It's scary. MDC is supposed to be scary.

Even the superheroic "Thor" (a full-blown God) has sprained his ankle, gotten broken ribs, etc.

Yes, but from doing what? Also, doesn't Thor have a history of possessing frail mortal bodies and empowering them?

So has the Surfer and Superman too (albeit it, he just reset the broken bone and then super healed it and moved on).

Yes, but doing what? We're not saying MDC creatures can't get injuries, just that different things cause it.

If Superman injures himself moving on a broken ankle, it's probably from doing something super and not normal.

Re-read the "meaning" of damage and Hit Point damage in Conversion Book 1 (Revised). It doesn't talk about M.D.C. but the principle for what it represents is essentially the same, the only difference is that the M.D.C. being is super durable.

The super-durability is exactly what we're talking about.

Old people are less durable, that's why they can shatter their hips so easily, and why fit people take more abuse to inflict that kind of thing. MDC creatures are on a whole other level, exponentially stronger, they don't tear their ligaments jogging at our pace, they're too tough.

Keep in mind, that someone with boxing who gets lucky and rolls a knockout punch can still KO a demigod.

By the rules you can KO an AI like Apsu on a natural 20. There are some cases where we expect GMs to use common sense and ignore the lack of disclaimer. IE only a MD-inflicting punch should be capable of KOing a being with MDC internal organs.

You can certainly KO a squishy in MDC armor because his brain is as vulnerable as ever to rotational force, but unless there's reason to think that the brain of an MDC creature is still SDC, I would assume it was MDC and that the punch would have to inflict at least 1 MD (the power-punch of a juicer could qualify) to be able to jar it enough.

IF you want to get technical with RAW, that's epic, but don't expect us to use a clear oversight (normal damage KOing MDbeings) as some kind of rationale for falls hurting them.

Being M.D.C. doesn't make you immune to sudden impacts or being dropped, jostled, dizzied, etc. A sudden impact delivered just right is still going to mess them up.

Not being immune to being startled by rapid changes in physical placement does not mean those changes damage your body, though. I get dizzy when I spin around in a circle, doesn't mean I'm harmed by it.

its just jumping out of planes and other extreme falls that seem nonsensical.

Why just this? Why are you okay with a sniper round in the eyeball doing nothing to these guys but for some reason, getting out of impact craters is what bothers you?

as written if you run into an M.D.C. being with a high speed vehicle they take "damage" the same as an S.D.C. being from the collision. If you use an organic acid on an M.D.C. opponent, they take the same damage.. just as M.D.C.

Could someone remind me where this bit about SDC vehicles hitting MDC creatures hurting them and SDC acids harming MDC beings is mentioned? I am unable to respond to these claims without checking the source.

why use parachutes if you can just jump down in your giant robot

Please keep the argument specific here. There's a huge difference between a "squishy in a hard shell" (as Juicers call them, or what I will call Squishells) and an MDC creature surviving falls. The former is limited by the robot's ability to reduce the fall damage through momentum dampening and padding. MDC creatures ARE the robots.

and think about it, if you were watching a movie what has more chance of defeating a "bad guy" crashing a high speed vehicle into them followed by a massive explosion or throwing a grenade at them.

Well, since you've established that the vehicle has hit, whereas we don't know if the grenade did, I think you're introducing a lopsided scenario and getting off-track from our argument.

It's tragic if you're upset that crashing MDC objects into other MDC objects doesn't always inflict MD, but that's just how it is, deal with it. There are MDC weapons in Rifts England that only inflict SDC. Sometimes durability+force aren't enough.

[Alrik Vas]

This stuff practically writes itself and makes perfect sense in my mind and is far more "fun" and "cinematic" than "it pings off and does 20 damage. It doesn't even feel it."

You make some good points, but the ones I don't necessarily agree with are where you put MDC and SDC into the same catagory. For instance, a mortal punching Zeus. The boxer's natural 20...that's really going to KO him? You think that's real? I mean, maybe if the Greek gods were like they are their real mythology where they seem to be bound by a set of rules that are very human like...plus powers, then okay. Some guy can knock the King of Olympus' block off, sure (assuming he'd get the chance). Yet in MDC land, the punch can't inflict damage, can't jar the neck, won't even move the head. It would be like punching stone with a fleshy coating.

I understand making it cinematic, I really do, but MDC Explained has had a lot of different versions. If you're a non-supernatural MDC critter and you fall out of an airplane at 30,000 ft and hit the ground, I could see something happening. These types of beings have real biology and can hurt, rather than just cease to exist on this plane. Yet supernatural creatures, those guys, according to the books, they don't make any sense. They're the demons that literally eat your grenade and laugh. Suddenly it all goes out the window. There are some things that a fall won't destroy and more likely the falling creature will destroy the land around it on impact instead.

[Akashic Soldier]

I understand making it cinematic, I really do, but MDC Explained has had a lot of different versions. If you're a non-supernatural MDC critter and you fall out of an airplane at 30,000 ft and hit the ground, I could see something happening. These types of beings have real biology and can hurt, rather than just cease to exist on this plane. Yet supernatural creatures, those guys, according to the books, they don't make any sense. They're the demons that literally eat your grenade and laugh. Suddenly it all goes out the window. There are some things that a fall won't destroy and more likely the falling creature will destroy the land around it on impact instead.

The problem I have with that is that it adds a level of immunity that I don't think was ever intended. Again, I go to the giant robot parachute drop thing from Traix and Traix II. Admittedly, these are physical objects but they're built to fight demons. They're just as tough as demons are. So why would demons be stronger?

Now, if we're talking "supernatural entity" like a Vampire or something, I am totes with you but it specifically explains they are impervious to normal forms of damage. However, it specifically kinda goes into this, ya know?

I've been running it as per collision in the R:UE just using the same damage rates for falls and stuff for a while now and it makes sense to me. Plus, in Dinosaur Swamp (maybe Adventures in Dinosaur Swamp?) the locals kill the Dinos with traps, pits and thereby falls (specifically says so). It also says that if you have an S.D.C. Rifle that is high powered enough and you shoot something in the eye, it will damage them and can go into the brain and kill them like a normal headshot. M.D.C. isn't invulnerability, its just being real tough. Using the eyeball as an example, we can take it to mean that the bodies of the creatures are super durable (within reason). For example, getting shot in the eye obviously doesn't have the bullet just bounce off like superman or else Dinos would be completely immune to this hunting technique. Its just "super hit points/super toughness". If you were to cut the brain out of a dead Grackle Tooth and then take to it with a chainsaw, its not going to break all the teeth on the chainsaw... thats silly. Its just soft issue. However, you take to the beastie's scaled hide and it might do just that. Of course, they're not going to say "The Ears are S.D.C. and the eyes are S.D.C." on each creature because you as a G.M. are supposed to gauge that for yourself and use a bit of common sense.

Using your grenade example, you know who can do that? Critters immune to heat and fire (assuming its a plasma grenade) or critters that regenerate at an incredible rate (like most demons and deevils) because they'll get over that 3D6 damage like its nothing in no time. However, if they're beaten up and injured and their bio-regeneration is already working overtime fixing their other injuries (say they have 6 M.D.C. remaining) and when you make them swllow the grenade they take 20 M.D., than of course the demon explodes.

Tell me that ins't epic and fun? (and remember, its a game and that's the point).

Now will that same trick work on a Werewolf, Vampire or other similar being? Of course not! But they have their immunity detailed. Likewise, things without bio-regeneration (like dinosaurs and such) would have their stomach pieced and suffer from internal bleeding or injury. It might not kill them instantly, but it will kill them (bleeding typically occurs at a rate of 1 Hit Point/Natural M.D.C. per minute). The same way being shot in the "brain" through the eye with a high powered rifle will kill them.

That said, I fully encourage you to run the game the way you have the most fun. Its just "Zeus" isn't superman, he is Zeus. He might be tough as nails but mortals can still rise up and fight the guy, the same with most other Gods and Demons from myth and legend. I am not saying it should be easy, but to simply dismiss them based on an inability to "deal the right damage" is really going against the "spirit" of Palladium in my opinion. No one should be hopeless. No one should be perfect. I am not saying it should be easy, but according to the FAQ in the Rifter (if I recall correctly), KO is based off size not damage output. Its something like, if it is five times your size you can't KO it or something like that but you'll either have to take my word for it or call me a liar because I honestly have no idea which issue I read it in or if its even "five times" it might be less.

Also, "reducing" the S.D.C. damage from a punch because someone is M.D.C. is "correct", you nailed that. However, being able to "reduce" the damage doesn't reduce the force or impact, its the same way you could judo throw Zeus to the ground or the concussive force of an S.D.C. stinger missile could still knock him off his feet. It just wouldn't hurt him "enough to matter" with the force of the explosion or the heat of the flames.

As for Tor -- you are using Strawman wrong. I know its a popular internet slogan and makes people feel smart or important, but when you use it incorrectly it makes you look foolish. If you are going to use "strawman defense" you should at least use it properly. For instance, Stawman would be me saying "Your opinion is wrong because its Tor's opinion" rather than "Tor's opinion is wrong because he fails to properly refute any of the many examples and precedence I have already detailed previously."

See, the purpose of debate isn't to tirelessly argue in circles, its to reach a concurrences and a conclusion. From what I saw there all you did was essentially say "nah huh!" and stick to your guns. Anyone can do that. I just wish you had posted more like Alrik so I could actually converse with you. Instead, I feel like any and every conversation I have with you is a tug of war instead of a friendly discussion and I don't enjoy that and I won't be party to it.

I've said my piece and if you want to run it your way, that is fine. However, the rules on COLLISION (not crashing an airship) are specifically untyped damage and if the heroes and gods of myth and legend can be killed by being thrown off mountains, falling from heaven, and "according to the rules" being run over by a speeding hovercycle than I am inclined to run it that way in my game. M.D.C. is not "invulnerability." Its just the ability to endure tremendous amounts of damage.

Again, I have no interest in getting involved in a circular argument. I posted here to HELP and for the purpose of discussion. Not to debate, not to argue. If you continue to try to pick apart my statements instead of just... I don't know... asking their meaning, talking to me, acting civilly. I'll just add you to my foes list and ignore you. I am NOT here to fight.

Warning: User warned for referring to another as foolish and baiting another user. - NMI

EDIT: Discuss the post, not the poster. Learn to disagree and move on. - NMI

[NMI]

As for Punch/Fall damage to MDC beings or to those in MDC Armor/Robots/Vehicles...

I believe either R:UE or the Rifts Games Master Guide clarifies this rule or this might have been covered in an official Q&A of a Rifter. Boils down to something like the person in Armor/Vehicle/Robot would take something like 1D4 SDC per 10? MDC the armor takes? I could be wrong on the the numbers and not 100% sure of which book this is covered in. I will look for the info once I am home.

[Alrik Vas]

Akashic, this keeps coming back to differing views on MDC. I really...REALLY want to agree with you, because I like a Rifts world where MDC and SDC are more similar, yet the comparisons just don't make any sense to me.

Also, let's not talk about werewolves and vampires as examples of anything, because it gets us into a realm we're not really discussing.

The reason the demon laughs when he eats your grenade does have a lot to do with its MDC, but my point is that the act doesn't hurt it. Damage is dealt, but the creature doesn't care. To it, someone just weakly punched it in the gut, or it got momentary heart burn. When a supernatural has 400+ MDC, 18 doesn't really matter to it. If you did closer to 50, that would be something, but it still doesn't really mess it up that bad. Even with the optional critical rules, MDC supernaturals are basically invincible until dead if you never critical hit them. It's up to us as GM's to adjudicate when damage matters if the rules never step in.

[The Dark Elf]

Just as well the OP thanked in advance, lol.

[Akashic Soldier]

Akashic, this keeps coming back to differing views on MDC. I really...REALLY want to agree with you, because I like a Rifts world where MDC and SDC are more similar, yet the comparisons just don't make any sense to me.

No problem.

Also, let's not talk about werewolves and vampires as examples of anything, because it gets us into a realm we're not really discussing.

Well, we are. Because they're iconic examples of "supernatural beings" and if you check the random monster generators scattered across the book its possible for many creatures to share their damage resistance with a simple roll. Meaning, the supernatural ability to "be immune to normal damage (including falls)" is a common place thing and many demons or deevils (which are both examples of creatures that can be generated using these tables) will or can have it.

The reason the demon laughs when he eats your grenade does have a lot to do with its MDC, but my point is that the act doesn't hurt it. Damage is dealt, but the creature doesn't care. To it, someone just weakly punched it in the gut, or it got momentary heart burn. When a supernatural has 400+ MDC, 18 doesn't really matter to it. If you did closer to 50, that would be something, but it still doesn't really mess it up that bad. Even with the optional critical rules, MDC supernaturals are basically invincible until dead if you never critical hit them. It's up to us as GM's to adjudicate when damage matters if the rules never step in.

That 18 M.D.C. to its internal organs is pretty hardcore though. It might not kill it, but again (like dinosaurs) if you puncture the stomach or some other vitals and they don't regenerate the damage than they will bleed to death. Sure, it might take them 380+ minutes (6.3 hours) to eventually kick it but unless they can staunch that damage, they're going to die. Sure it sucks, but this is just another reasons M.D. beings need Body Fixers from time to time. They're "tough" they're not invincible, not without the super power.

Let me give you some more "canon" examples of different parts of the body having varying levels of damage resistance and explore the nature of M.D.C. a little more. Different parts of the body have varying levels of M.D.C. or S.D.C. and Hit Points, this is explained in the conventional weapons guide, the Game Master Guide and more commonly in pretty much every suit of armor, power armor, robot, vehicle and so on you can find.

Lets say John the Mega-Damage Man has 5 M.D.C. on his main body, John's hand has 8% of his total M.D.C.
Does John's hand have 0.4 M.D.C. because he is a "Mega-Damage Being" [i]or would it have 40 S.D.C.?[/i]
Obviously, you can't do 0.4 M.D. so the answer is, John the Mega-Damage man's hand has 40 S.D.C.

Now, lets look at John's eyeball and soft tissue, a hand is designed (evolved?) to be able to take a pretty decent impact, we can catch baseballs flying at hundreds of miles an hour, run it along edged surfaces and only sustain minor non-lethal injuries and even smash it against stone and it will be fine or "be okay in time". The eyeball, can do none of these things. So although it is not statistically detailed, anyone with any critical ability thinking whatsoever isn't going so credit someone's eyeball with the same durability as their hand, correct?

Now, following that rationality the arm has 30% of the main body's M.D.C., while the hand only has 8% so the "arm" is about 22% more durable than the eye and other soft tissue. However, the arm--

I just realized there's no point to any of this, no one cares and if I try explaining things I am probably just going to get another warning for "not letting it go".

I'll leave you guys with this...
If M.D.C. is "invulnerability" why are there official S.D.C. weapons printed in Dinosaur Swamp that are used to hunt and kill Dinosaurs (Mega-Damage Beings)?

My critical analysis of the situation is beings with Natural M.D.C. can sustain greater amounts of damage than normal, because lesser degrees of damage are inconsequential to them for the most part. The entire body is typically not sheathed in an invincible superman force field. Even in the description of Mega-Damage in the R:UE in what it is, it says the armor will still be scratched or pinged by S.D.C. rounds just not enough to inflict "damage" to the target. You can still stab John the Mega-Damage Man with an S.D.C. knife, he just doesn't care unless you stab him somewhere very sensitive. Furthermore, without bio-regenration or medical attention something can't staunch its bleeding. Does this mean you can slit the throat of an M.D.C. being with a kitchen knife, probably not... but you could probably stab them in the eye, heat it up and cut out their tongue, etc.

Now, despite popular belief I am happy to concede and admit I am wrong, I'll even apologize because I am not trying to actually antagonize anyone. However, for that to happen I need my points to be addressed and answered satisfactorily. Its not an "opinion" when I am referencing written material, official weapons and "canon" sources. Its not a "personal attack" or "strawman" when I refuse to accept the opinion of someone else "over" said sources.

[The Beast]

I'll leave you guys with this...
If M.D.C. is "invulnerability" why are there official S.D.C. weapons printed in Dinosaur Swamp that are used to hunt and kill Dinosaurs?

Because that genuis is trying to correct the mistake of non-supernatural creatures having MDC.

[Nightmask]

I'll leave you guys with this...
If M.D.C. is "invulnerability" why are there official S.D.C. weapons printed in Dinosaur Swamp that are used to hunt and kill Dinosaurs?

Because that genuis is trying to correct the mistake of non-supernatural creatures having MDC.

The mistake would be dinosaurs having MDC, not that MDC should somehow be exclusive to supernatural beings.

[The Beast]

I'll leave you guys with this...
If M.D.C. is "invulnerability" why are there official S.D.C. weapons printed in Dinosaur Swamp that are used to hunt and kill Dinosaurs?

Because that genuis is trying to correct the mistake of non-supernatural creatures having MDC.

The mistake would be dinosaurs having MDC, not that MDC should somehow be exclusive to supernatural beings.

Well I could see some Creatures of Magic having MDC as well, but if it's a normal creature, absolutely not.

[Nightmask]

I'll leave you guys with this...
If M.D.C. is "invulnerability" why are there official S.D.C. weapons printed in Dinosaur Swamp that are used to hunt and kill Dinosaurs?

Because that genuis is trying to correct the mistake of non-supernatural creatures having MDC.

The mistake would be dinosaurs having MDC, not that MDC should somehow be exclusive to supernatural beings.

Well I could see some Creatures of Magic having MDC as well, but if it's a normal creature, absolutely not.

And why exactly should all 'normal' creatures be SDC only? It's an arbitrary designation to say that somehow MDC creatures aren't normal or that somehow to be normal you have to be SDC.

[Alrik Vas]

Normal = SDC? This isn't arbitrary, Nightmask.

Human sized creature with no real reason to be MDC, not even magic or implants = arbitrary.

[Nightmask]

Normal = SDC? This isn't arbitrary, Nightmask.

Human sized creature with no real reason to be MDC, not even magic or implants = arbitrary.

Yes that's arbitrary, you're declaring that 'well I think to be normal something has to be SDC' and that 'well if it's MDC it should be supernatural', when there's no reason why an MDC being can't also be natural and not require supernatural powers to justify it.

[Alrik Vas]

Akashic, this keeps coming back to differing views on MDC. I really...REALLY want to agree with you, because I like a Rifts world where MDC and SDC are more similar, yet the comparisons just don't make any sense to me.

No problem.

Also, let's not talk about werewolves and vampires as examples of anything, because it gets us into a realm we're not really discussing.

Well, we are. Because they're iconic examples of "supernatural beings" and if you check the random monster generators scattered across the book its possible for many creatures to share their damage resistance with a simple roll. Meaning, the supernatural ability to "be immune to normal damage (including falls)" is a common place thing and many demons or deevils (which are both examples of creatures that can be generated using these tables) will or can have it.

Which deevils and demons are immune to falls? I'm really not 100% on that. Regardless, I said vamps and immune things don't factor in because they're invincible unless X is used. Many demons are hurt by certain substances, but that allows them to take mega-damage from SDC sources, showing their vulnerability. It doesn't mean you need a holy vibro-sword, you just need a vibro-sword. If it was an SDC holy sword, it would do MDC to the demon. Vampires really are a different story because they're immune to the end of the universe unless the end of the univers can inflict water damage or shake a cross at them.

The reason the demon laughs when he eats your grenade does have a lot to do with its MDC, but my point is that the act doesn't hurt it. Damage is dealt, but the creature doesn't care. To it, someone just weakly punched it in the gut, or it got momentary heart burn. When a supernatural has 400+ MDC, 18 doesn't really matter to it. If you did closer to 50, that would be something, but it still doesn't really mess it up that bad. Even with the optional critical rules, MDC supernaturals are basically invincible until dead if you never critical hit them. It's up to us as GM's to adjudicate when damage matters if the rules never step in.

That 18 M.D.C. to its internal organs is pretty hardcore though. It might not kill it, but again (like dinosaurs) if you puncture the stomach or some other vitals and they don't regenerate the damage than they will bleed to death. Sure, it might take them 380+ minutes (6.3 hours) to eventually kick it but unless they can staunch that damage, they're going to die. Sure it sucks, but this is just another reasons M.D. beings need Body Fixers from time to time. They're "tough" they're not invincible, not without the super power.

Demons have a vulnerable anatomy? I wasn't aware of this. Dinosaurs shouldn't have been made MDC, but they were. When it comes to that, yeah...if you threw a grenade into the open jaws of a T-Rex and it swallowed the thing, i'd give it 50/50 that Mr. Teeth would die flat out.

Let me give you some more "canon" examples of different parts of the body having varying levels of damage resistance and explore the nature of M.D.C. a little more. Different parts of the body have varying levels of M.D.C. or S.D.C. and Hit Points, this is explained in the conventional weapons guide, the Game Master Guide and more commonly in pretty much every suit of armor, power armor, robot, vehicle and so on you can find.

Lets say John the Mega-Damage Man has 5 M.D.C. on his main body, John's hand has 8% of his total M.D.C.
Does John's hand have 0.4 M.D.C. because he is a "Mega-Damage Being" [i]or would it have 40 S.D.C.?[/i]
Obviously, you can't do 0.4 M.D. so the answer is, John the Mega-Damage man's hand has 40 S.D.C.

Now, lets look at John's eyeball and soft tissue, a hand is designed (evolved?) to be able to take a pretty decent impact, we can catch baseballs flying at hundreds of miles an hour, run it along edged surfaces and only sustain minor non-lethal injuries and even smash it against stone and it will be fine or "be okay in time". The eyeball, can do none of these things. So although it is not statistically detailed, anyone with any critical ability thinking whatsoever isn't going so credit someone's eyeball with the same durability as their hand, correct?

Now, following that rationality the arm has 30% of the main body's M.D.C., while the hand only has 8% so the "arm" is about 22% more durable than the eye and other soft tissue. However, the arm--

What book gives percentage values to parts of the body?

I just realized there's no point to any of this, no one cares and if I try explaining things I am probably just going to get another warning for "not letting it go".

I care, or I wouldn't be having this discussion. Let's leave the mods out of it though, eh?

I'll leave you guys with this...
If M.D.C. is "invulnerability" why are there official S.D.C. weapons printed in Dinosaur Swamp that are used to hunt and kill Dinosaurs (Mega-Damage Beings)?

This was fielded pretty well above. Sadly I accept it as a real explanation.

My critical analysis of the situation is beings with Natural M.D.C. can sustain greater amounts of damage than normal, because lesser degrees of damage are inconsequential to them for the most part. The entire body is typically not sheathed in an invincible superman force field. Even in the description of Mega-Damage in the R:UE in what it is, it says the armor will still be scratched or pinged by S.D.C. rounds just not enough to inflict "damage" to the target. You can still stab John the Mega-Damage Man with an S.D.C. knife, he just doesn't care unless you stab him somewhere very sensitive. Furthermore, without bio-regenration or medical attention something can't staunch its bleeding. Does this mean you can slit the throat of an M.D.C. being with a kitchen knife, probably not... but you could probably stab them in the eye, heat it up and cut out their tongue, etc.

Now, despite popular belief I am happy to concede and admit I am wrong, I'll even apologize because I am not trying to actually antagonize anyone. However, for that to happen I need my points to be addressed and answered satisfactorily. Its not an "opinion" when I am referencing written material, official weapons and "canon" sources. Its not a "personal attack" or "strawman" when I refuse to accept the opinion of someone else "over" said sources.

Your analysis is fine. Like I said, I don't really find anything wrong with it, I just don't see it that way. If you're tougher but still vulnerable, you'd be like a juicer with 400+ SDC and a 100+ HP. If you don't give a crap about the tiny nicks and scratches of mortals, nor worry about a hit from vibro sword or a fall from several thousand feet...you're probably a Godling or Demon/Deevil. That's essentially what I'm getting at. "Natural" MDC creatures screw the whole equation up.

[Alrik Vas]

Normal = SDC? This isn't arbitrary, Nightmask.

Human sized creature with no real reason to be MDC, not even magic or implants = arbitrary.

Yes that's arbitrary, you're declaring that 'well I think to be normal something has to be SDC' and that 'well if it's MDC it should be supernatural', when there's no reason why an MDC being can't also be natural and not require supernatural powers to justify it.

Ah! Yes, I basically am. Though i don't think it excludes the possibility. I just think it makes a mess of everything. though "normal" is relative, anyhow. Normal for a grackletooth is being MDC, normal for a human is SDC. Maybe a different term should be used.

[Tor]

I go to the giant robot parachute drop thing from Traix and Traix II. Admittedly, these are physical objects but they're built to fight demons. They're just as tough as demons are. So why would demons be stronger?

The demons are stronger than the pilots, not the robots. The parachutes are more for the benefit of the pilots than the actual robot. It prevents them from taking the SDC fall damage, even if robots reduce that to some degree it's still convenient to avoid it altogether.

That and, well, robots tend to be a lot heavier than a demon of equivalent MDC, and even if a landing didn't hurt a bot, it might embed them 20 feet into the ground and immobilize their legs, which would suck if they came under fire if they had to spend time getting themselves out.

Parachutes also allow you to adjust your landing position, since you might not jump out of the plane at a perfect moment to land where you intended.

in Dinosaur Swamp (maybe Adventures in Dinosaur Swamp?) the locals kill the Dinos with traps, pits and thereby falls (specifically says so).

False, CWC made it clear that pit traps can be lined with vibro-blades or grenades. Trap-damageability does not mean fall-damageability. Traps killing things doesn't mean ALL traps kill those things.

It also says that if you have an S.D.C. Rifle that is high powered enough and you shoot something in the eye, it will damage them and can go into the brain and kill them like a normal headshot.

Sounds interesting, anyone have a page I can read for this?

M.D.C. isn't invulnerability, its just being real tough.

Please don't argue strawmen, nobody has called MDC invulnerability here. Unless you mean being invulnerable to attacks of 99 SDC or less.

Using the eyeball as an example, we can take it to mean that the bodies of the creatures are super durable (within reason). For example, getting shot in the eye obviously doesn't have the bullet just bounce off like superman or else Dinos would be completely immune to this hunting technique.

If dinos are vulnerable to this, it may mean that they only have MDC skin. Some creatures having partial SDC and partial MDC doesn't mean that we should consider all MDC creatures to have SDC eyeballs.

If you were to cut the brain out of a dead Grackle Tooth and then take to it with a chainsaw, its not going to break all the teeth on the chainsaw

Of course not... if it were a Juicer's vibro-chainsaw.

... thats silly. Its just soft issue.

Source?

Of course, they're not going to say "The Ears are S.D.C. and the eyes are S.D.C." on each creature because you as a G.M. are supposed to gauge that for yourself and use a bit of common sense.

Common sense tells us that your body is going to share the same property unless otherwise indicated. There is nothing at all sensible about assuming some parts to be SDC simply out of convenience.

If we were talking about a guy with merely MDC skin, sure, anything not covered by skin would be game, but unless it says skin-only, there's no reason to limit i to that.

"Zeus" isn't superman, he is Zeus. He might be tough as nails but mortals can still rise up and fight the guy, the same with most other Gods and Demons from myth and legend.

That was back in pre-Rifts pre-MDC times. Now, if you want to hurt him, you need MD.

to simply dismiss them based on an inability to "deal the right damage" is really going against the "spirit" of Palladium in my opinion.

No, it isn't.

No one should be hopeless.

MDC is designed to make SDC creatures mostly hopeless. A lot of creatures are so powerful that minor creatures challenging them are effectively hopeless. I admire idealism, but we should pragmatically acknowledge the reality that is, and not the epic 'Hobbits win' reality we want.

No one should be perfect.

MDC creatures needing MD to knock them out is hardly 'perfect'.

according to the FAQ in the Rifter (if I recall correctly), KO is based off size not damage output. Its something like, if it is five times your size you can't KO it or something like that but you'll either have to take my word for it or call me a liar because I honestly have no idea which issue I read it in or if its even "five times" it might be less.

I would think being mass+speed-based would be more important than size-based. Ultimately it's the amount of force that determines how fast the head twists.

being able to "reduce" the damage doesn't reduce the force or impact, its the same way you could judo throw Zeus to the ground or the concussive force of an S.D.C. stinger missile could still knock him off his feet. It just wouldn't hurt him "enough to matter" with the force of the explosion or the heat of the flames.

Actually it DOES reduce the force of impact. The reduced force is why an SDC body flip doesn't hurt Zeus but a MD body flip does.

As for Tor -- you are using Strawman wrong. I know its a popular internet slogan and makes people feel smart or important, but when you use it incorrectly it makes you look foolish. If you are going to use "strawman defense" you should at least use it properly. For instance, Stawman would be me saying "Your opinion is wrong because its Tor's opinion" rather than "Tor's opinion is wrong because he fails to properly refute any of the many examples and precedence I have already detailed previously."

You're confusing strawman with ad hominem attack. Ad hominem is when you attack the arguer rather than the argument. Strawman is when you misrepresent (intentionally, if understood; or unintentionally, if misunderstood) an opponent's argument and argue with an illusion instead of the real thing.

To clarify, I said this was strawmanning:

I see no reason "being super tough" should mean you are impervious to the effects of colliding with the planet.

I say this, because I don't think anyone actually made that argument. Feel free to point out to me where they did, if I overlooked it. I believe you were embellishing your opposition's argument to unrealistic extremes by using a term like 'impervious'. Your opposition was arguing about resistance to effects (not taking SDC damage under 100) not being utterly impervious to collision, as you characterize it.

See, the purpose of debate isn't to tirelessly argue in circles, its to reach a concurrences and a conclusion. From what I saw there all you did was essentially say "nah huh!" and stick to your guns. Anyone can do that.

To clarify Akashic, I am going to accuse you of strawmanning again, not because this argument comes from you, but because I think you are inaccurately summarizing the rebuttal given to you. This may indeed be 'what you saw', but it is not what actually happened.

I just wish you had posted more like Alrik so I could actually converse with you. Instead, I feel like any and every conversation I have with you is a tug of war instead of a friendly discussion and I don't enjoy that and I won't be party to it.

Responding to criticisms of your posts is not mandatory. If the feels from the reads makes the sadness then people will understand.

the rules on COLLISION (not crashing an airship) are specifically untyped damage

Soldier, I merely asked for a page number in RUE so I could confirm this. Looking at the ToC, I could only fine the aircraft collission rules. I would be happy to read any other RUEles if people could refer me to where to notice them.

if the heroes and gods of myth and legend can be killed by being thrown off mountains, falling from heaven

Those are myths based in SDC tiems and completely irrelevant to the actual abiltiies of gods in a MDC era.

"according to the rules" being run over by a speeding hovercycle

I am looking to where I can get rules on hovercycles inflicting MD on impact to targets.

M.D.C. is not "invulnerability." Its just the ability to endure tremendous amounts of damage.

Why did you put this in quotes? This is exactly why you get accused of strawman arguing. You're the first to introduce this term, it has not been used in the arguments presented to you, this means you are misrepresenting them.

Again, I have no interest in getting involved in a circular argument. I posted here to HELP and for the purpose of discussion. Not to debate, not to argue.

I am inclined to think that those who engage in straw manning are very much interested in circular arguments, since introducing those will drag out a discussion as people attempt to set the record straight about what their argument is, to correct the illusion crafted by the scarecrower Geppetoer.

If you continue to try to pick apart my statements instead of just... I don't know... asking their meaning, talking to me, acting civilly. I'll just add you to my foes list and ignore you. I am NOT here to fight.

I did ask for their meaning, you mentioned crash rules in RUE, I found some on a page and asked if that was what you meant, or if I should look on another page.

If not page 365, where in RUE should I find what you're referring to?

Lets say John the Mega-Damage Man has 5 M.D.C. on his main body, John's hand has 8% of his total M.D.C.
Does John's hand have 0.4 M.D.C. because he is a "Mega-Damage Being" [i]or would it have 40 S.D.C.?[/i]
Obviously, you can't do 0.4 M.D. so the answer is, John the Mega-Damage man's hand has 40 S.D.C.

I don't think MDC works that way. If you can simply break the body into areas with less capacity to bypass the 1-99dmg immunity then I could poke a d4 dagger into a small surface area of skin on an MDC creature by calculating the small % of damage that surface area would have.

Where's this 8% thing come from anyway?

I'll leave you guys with this...
If M.D.C. is "invulnerability" why are there official S.D.C. weapons printed in Dinosaur Swamp that are used to hunt and kill Dinosaurs (Mega-Damage Beings)?

I opt to ignore your straw-man argument until you choose a different word to represent the concept. We have a super-ability called Invulnerability, which gives utter immunity to damage.

MDC is selective immunity to SDC damage from 1-99. Some creatures (like say, a Cyber-Knight) have tough MDC portions and soft SDC portions. Dinosaur Swamp has apparently introduced this concept for dinos and their squishy eyeballs.

But dinos having squishy eyeballs doesn't mean that everything else does.

[Akashic Soldier]

I will no longer be responding to this thread and I have added Tor to my block list. If anyone wishes to discuss this further please feel free to make another topic. However, for now I am done. I am not going to play the "shifting your meaning" game. Its a tacky debate move and its beneath me. I tried expressing myself and explaining myself, I gave points of reference in printed material. My remarks were met with unsubstantiated claims and a willful dismissal of the evidence contrary. Zeus is not immune to being thrown, lifted, tossed, juggled or anything else just because he is M.D.C., there are a number of other logical faults but I've said my piece. If you still disagree, you're welcome to and I hope you have fun in your game.

I've failed to be convinced to the contrary.

That said, thank you Alrik Vas I genuinely enjoyed our conversation while it lasted.

P.S. Oh! and so I am not rude, there are no printed Demons that have supernatural damage resistance (although as I say that I have this inkling in the back of my head there might be something in Chaos Earth) but in the random monster generator it says that it can be used to make demons, etc. So by that rationality, in the "infinite megaverse" it is possible to have the "super immune to damage" demon.

[Tor]

In spite of statements to the contrary, Soldier is very much shifting the meaning of his opponents by exaggerating the stance by using words like 'invulnerable'. *shrug* It's a case of the kettle calling the toilet black (I am the toilet).

A point of reference in the printed material was not given for Rifts Ultimate Edition. He claimed there was a rule there which has MDC creatures explicitly taking MD from collisions in general:

The rules for long distance falls can be found in the parachuting skill in the R:UE. They bypass armor. There are some rules in Splicers for falling from a certain distance if you are an M.D.C. being but after reviewing them they seem to be in relation to a specific piece of equipment. Personally, I just use the "collision" rule of thumb, which is damage from Falls and Collisions inflicts damage on a 1 for 1 basis. If you would take 1 Hit Point from a Fall and you are a Mega-Damage being, you take 1 M.D.

The military skill of parachuting on RUEp315 does mention taking SDC damage even in MDC armor, but I have no idea where this 'rule of thumb' originates from.

I do not need to change the rate of S.D.C. damage to M.D.C., I only need to say "You are just as badly messed up from a fall as an S.D.C. person is". That is how collision damage already works. You run over an M.D.C. being they take 1D6 damage for every 10 mph (or there abouts), you run over an S.D.C. person they take 1D6 for every 10 mph over 50 mph (or whatever the formula is).

I'd like a page number to test these claims, seeing as how an MDC creature taking 6d6x100 SDC damage from a vehicle ram that would only inflict 1d6 SDC to a normal human seems kind of absurd.

I stand by my previous assessment. After all, as it is written collisions do "damage" that is neither S.D.C. or M.D.C. its just "damage" relative to whatever is taking it. Don't believe me, check the R:UE.

I asked which page of the RUE that Soldier meant by this. If he is taking the stance that 'damage' means 'conditionally mega-damage if an MDC target', that is simply wrong. Damage, without 'mega', is SDC damage, this is well known in Rifts.

If 'damage' in falls meant potential MDC damage based on target, then anyone using unspecified SDC weapons or hand to hand attacks would inflict MD to MDC creatures too, since they similarly just say 'damage'. While it is true that the 'common equipment' on RUEp262 says "SDC damage", this is not a mandatory notation.

On RUEp317, the automatic kick attack for Gymnastics only says 'damage'. As does the moves provided by Kick Boxing (roundhouse/axe/knee/leap) and the Body Block/Tackle provided by Wrestling. "Damage" (not SDC damage) is again used on RUEp344 for the body block, RUEp345 as well for Hand/Foot strikes Karate Kick/Punch, and the Kick Attack, and on RUEp346 Leap Kick and Punch, RUEp347 for the kick attack and body flip of HtH basic, RUEp348 for the Karate Kick and body flip of Expert, the the body flip and Leap Kick of Martial Arts, and the Karate Kick/Punch & Backhand of Assassin. These "damage" mentions are SDC damage.

Are we to believe that since it doesn't specify 'SDC' that these automatically inflict MD if the target of the attack is MDC? There is no basis for this assumption. If we allow SDC to convert 1:1 to MD for falls on the basis of it being 'damage', this means anyone trained in wrestling can do a 1d4 MD tackle to MDC creatures. This is exactly the kind of argument Soldier is making for falls. Damage must explicitly be MD to inflict MD, to think otherwise is absurdity. We have situations of weapons that inflict variable damage/MD depending on the target's nature (phase, some magic, etc) and they have very different wording. If 'damage' was all that was needed, they would not have such complex explanations.

All I could find was rules for them taking MD from AIRCRAFT crashes, which is different than a universal rule for all impacts. If anyone happens to know what he's talking about, a page number for RUE regarding MD from falls would be welcome, as I can't seem to find it.

RMB addressed basic fall damage on page 35 (under "Damage Table (Basic)" under Hit Points) and the reduced damage you take when wearing armor on page 12 (under Impact Damage Rules Applicable to Body & Power Armor).

In looking for these in RUE, page 316 (right column,under the climbing skill) states the same SDC damage as page 35 of RMB, as does page 345 left column "Miscellaneous". The fall damage while wearing MDC armor (from RMBp12) is on RUEp356. It's still SDC, and has actually been reduced to half (per 20ft instead of per 10ft) of what it previously was.

Nowhere in RUE have I seen it indicated that MD is inflicted by falls. By RMB rules, a fall of 160 feet would inflcit 96 damage at most, so you'd need to fall 170+ feet for MDC armor (or MDC beings) to be harmed by the fall. That's actually NOT that bad.

RUE's only introduction of impacts inflicting MD that I could find are in the "Aircraft Crash-Landing" rules on page 365. They were not extended to normal falls. People are free to use them, but should keep in mind that, RAW mean that any unarmored SDC people will automatically die from plane crashes (even a "good" crash-landing where the pilot makes his skill roll). They can only take SDC if protected by armor. But we know people can survive airplane crash landings even if they are SDC and not wearing armor (this has happened in real life) so I would reasonably house-rule here that these rules (being part of the 'missile combat' system) are only applicable when planes crash as a result of MD missile damage, which would presumably wreck a substantial part of the plane, make fuel explode, etc.

I have supplied actual page numbers of both RMB and RUE which indicate that fall damage is still SDC based, indicating that only if it inflicts above 99 will it harm MDC creatures or armor. These claims are substantiated. The claim that fall damage is translated into MD has not been substantiated.

Soldier has finished with yet more straw-manning, insinuating that I have said Zeus is 'immune' to being thrown/lifted/tossed. I have not said anything like that, merely that those things would normally not hurt him. Obviously being tossed from a large height (170ft+) or onto a bed of vibro-spikes would.

[Alrik Vas]

Besides, 5MDC main body on a human could be a juicer, and that's just 400SDC and 100HP. There's wiggle room to take minor MD or to be a grease stain from a wilk's laser tag pistol. Meh.

[Eashamahel]

I will no longer be responding to this thread and I have added Tor to my block list.

Boggling.


-EDIT-

I do actually remember going through this conversation over a decade ago in a Wormwood game, discussing whether or not it was reasonable for wormwood civilians to just jump out of the top of a Crawling Tower to freedom. From what we figured out, there was no reason it wouldn't work rules-wise, but it just didn't WORK concept wise because it destroyed a lot of the in-game feel.

I do remember long ago working out the lbs/square inch of force (roughly) an object is exposed to when it hits the ground from free fall, and then comparing that to the lbs/square inch of other events (punched, stabbed, shot, maybe a car crash?), and eventually determining that there wasn't any reason that an MDC object should take anything more than extremely minor damage from falls.

The problem, really, is that at the end of it all, this is an issue of the system. It has nothing to do with the 'reality' of anything, it's just about the existence of and flaws about MDC, flaws that are in no way new and most of us have just been shrugging at and moving on past since RIFTS first came out.

A character in environmental MDC armour gets in a car crash and gets hurt, but when he's hit by a rail gun, or say a 20th century tank round that does hundreds of SDC (VASTLY more damage than he would have suffered in the car crash) he shrugs it off, the armour just has some kind of nullifying effect on force. Same thing happens higher up the scale with MD weaponry as well. There's no real right answer, it's just a logical flaw in the concept of MDC, and just like everything in Palladium, decades of rules overlap hasn't helped make it any simpler.

[PSI-Lence]

first time i have replied to something without reading every single post, so it may have been covered but ...

as the OP saying a person takes 1 sd for every 20' while inside MD armor there has to be a limit on that at some point with terminal velocity you shouldn't be taking any more damage just for the distance you traveled to get there google puts the terminal velocity anywhere between 117 spread out, and 200mph diving down and only need about 350 - 460m to reach that speed

an insect could fall that distance and be fine just because it is so light it falls very slow and takes no damage, so fall distance alone means nothing

i would think MD armor must protect very well against all damage (including falling which should hardly scratch the armor) but wouldn't do as well protecting frail sdc joints from being twisted etc (power armor should be much better at both) you can always bump up the damage inside armor but really how a person falls would be a big factor in damage, i think 1 sd per 20' assumes the person is ready for the impact trying to cushion it the best they can, not falling feet first totally ridged and probably break their feet and cause a lot of damage to leg joints.



as for the MD creature argument (which is where i stopped reading mostly) wasn't there places that describe MDC bones being stronger than steel? (madhaven even explicitly points out MD bones) so if you can drop a modern sdc pipe wrench 80' and have it not deform it enough to render it useless, i doubt a MDC being ready to land with MDC skin, tissue and bone would take any damage, and would not be at any risk of popping a bone out of joint either

[Nightmask]

first time i have replied to something without reading every single post, so it may have been covered but ...

as the OP saying a person takes 1 sd for every 20' while inside MD armor there has to be a limit on that at some point with terminal velocity you shouldn't be taking any more damage just for the distance you traveled to get there google puts the terminal velocity anywhere between 117 spread out, and 200mph diving down and only need about 350 - 460m to reach that speed

an insect could fall that distance and be fine just because it is so light it falls very slow and takes no damage, so fall distance alone means nothing

i would think MD armor must protect very well against all damage (including falling which should hardly scratch the armor) but wouldn't do as well protecting frail sdc joints from being twisted etc (power armor should be much better at both) you can always bump up the damage inside armor but really how a person falls would be a big factor in damage, i think 1 sd per 20' assumes the person is ready for the impact trying to cushion it the best they can, not falling feet first totally ridged and probably break their feet and cause a lot of damage to leg joints.



as for the MD creature argument (which is where i stopped reading mostly) wasn't there places that describe MDC bones being stronger than steel? (madhaven even explicitly points out MD bones) so if you can drop a modern sdc pipe wrench 80' and have it not deform it enough to render it useless, i doubt a MDC being ready to land with MDC skin, tissue and bone would take any damage, and would not be at any risk of popping a bone out of joint either

Unfortunately apparently there's a rule somewhere that MDC creatures take massive mega-damage from falling, with that terminal velocity fall for a 6' 200lb MDC creature dealing out thousands of times more damage compared to what a 6' 200lb SDC/HP creature would take for the same speed and impacting the same material in spite of the MDC creature being massively more durable (to the point of being able to smother Mega-damage grenades and take GB railgun rounds) and it not being logical that they'd receive more damage rather than little to no damage under those conditions.

[Eashamahel]

Tor's last post pretty well sums up where the whole thread got to, PSI-Lence, and your point is a good one as well.

Even if an MDC creatures bones aren't straight MDC (though there is reason to think that at least most would be, as your Madhaven and I am sure a few other examples demonstrate) and are just SUBSTANTIALLY tougher than human (like the Titan Juicer's) this would still have an effect on how much damage they take/how dangerous falls are for them.

Oh, and if a creature can take MD from, say, being hit with a railgun or easily survive high SDC damage explosions (say 600SDC), then there is no reason that it's internal workings should be significantly more vulnerable to damage from the impact of falls. Clearly, assuming it's not a magical beast like a Vampire or Fairy or some such, it's other internal structures, tendons, cartilage, ect, are equally robust (especially if it also has Supernatural level strength, and thus it's own body needs to be able to constantly generate that force without tendons tearing off bones and such).

Both of the above thoughts are just me thinking out loud though, as I said, Tor seems to cover the system of the thing pretty comprehensively.

[Alrik Vas]

I asked which page of the RUE that Soldier meant by this. If he is taking the stance that 'damage' means 'conditionally mega-damage if an MDC target', that is simply wrong. Damage, without 'mega', is SDC damage, this is well known in Rifts.

If 'damage' in falls meant potential MDC damage based on target, then anyone using unspecified SDC weapons or hand to hand attacks would inflict MD to MDC creatures too, since they similarly just say 'damage'. While it is true that the 'common equipment' on RUEp262 says "SDC damage", this is not a mandatory notation.

I'm not sure where, but I recall a rule that states whenever the term "damage" is used in rules without any additional tag, it is in fact referring to SDC, so i agree with the above.

Soldier has finished with yet more straw-manning, insinuating that I have said Zeus is 'immune' to being thrown/lifted/tossed. I have not said anything like that, merely that those things would normally not hurt him. Obviously being tossed from a large height (170ft+) or onto a bed of vibro-spikes would.

Exactly. Though the Zeus thing was a discussion he was having with me. I stated that an SDC, non-supernatural PS boxer punching Zeus, even getting a natrual 20 would not only do no damage, but wouldn't even get a KO chance. They lack the power to cause the circumstances that would knock out someone with Supernatural Stats and Thousands of MDC. He could be thrown/lifted/tossed, he just wouldn't take any damage unless circumstances like you had mentioned were in place.

[Tor]

I do actually remember going through this conversation over a decade ago in a Wormwood game, discussing whether or not it was reasonable for wormwood civilians to just jump out of the top of a Crawling Tower to freedom. From what we figured out, there was no reason it wouldn't work rules-wise, but it just didn't WORK concept wise because it destroyed a lot of the in-game feel.

If the idea of Wormwood humans surviving huge falls from the towers doesn't appeal to you, there's some simple fixes:
*1: make Wormwood humans SDC, or even make the whole setting SDC
*2: put spikes at the bottom

i would think MD armor must protect very well against all damage (including falling which should hardly scratch the armor) but wouldn't do as well protecting frail sdc joints from being twisted etc (power armor should be much better at both)

Why would preventing mobility beyond a safe range be difficult?

Heck, my SDC jeans are very good at preventing hip abduction.

Unfortunately apparently there's a rule somewhere that MDC creatures take massive mega-damage from falling

Source?

Unless it's an Apok or Sea Inquisitor pushing someone off a building (I never know where to draw the line with their powers), I'm not sure why MDC creatures would be taking MD from it.

I stated that an SDC, non-supernatural PS boxer punching Zeus, even getting a natrual 20 would not only do no damage, but wouldn't even get a KO chance. They lack the power to cause the circumstances that would knock out someone with Supernatural Stats and Thousands of MDC. He could be thrown/lifted/tossed, he just wouldn't take any damage unless circumstances like you had mentioned were in place.

Unfortunately, RulesAsWritten (unless I'm missing some errata here which corrects the silliness) I think canonically the SDC puncher's natural 20 would still knock out Zeus, much as I dislike it, since knockouts are not damage-based.

I don't tend to remember all the Rifter/GMG errata though so let's hope there's something buried out there which alters this, if someone can find it I'm going to write it into the combat section of my main books.

[Alrik Vas]

I was just going off sense. SDC punch won't cause the head roll, a God's neck would be too strong. It its damage, jarring someone's brain like that requires certain things to happen, that a comparative wet noodle just can't do.

[Tor]

It's not necessarily an issue of strength though. If you can see the punch coming and can brace, sure, but knockouts usually happen from punches you don't see coming and can't brace against, so your muscular strength wouldn't really matter, so much as your reflexes.

[Eashamahel]

Yeah, back in the day we converted Wormwood every way and back again, once the game got awkward enough because of the rules flaws getting hard to ignore.

And our Apok always wanted a heavy machine gun. That's where I drew the line

[Alrik Vas]

It's not necessarily an issue of strength though. If you can see the punch coming and can brace, sure, but knockouts usually happen from punches you don't see coming and can't brace against, so your muscular strength wouldn't really matter, so much as your reflexes.

I don't think bracing is necessary to avoid being KO'd by nerf bat. Otherwise there's no difference between SDC and MDC.

You're basically taking Akashic Soldier's point and making it for him now.

[Tor]

Nerf bats lack the required rigidity to convey the mass behind the swing. I guess we could figure someone punching zeus without MD strength would lack the rigidity in their arm and it would just turn jellowy?

I've only questioned whether or not Akashic Soldier had sourcing for his rules statements, not the validity of certain concerns. I don't wholly disagree with him about there being problems between the ratios of force and the ratios of damage in the system. A very clear example of this would be the discrepency between the amount people can lift and how much damage they inflict. If it were proportional we wouldn't require different forms of strength at all.

Basically if a 200 pound Zeus is relaxed and not bracing against my movement, then he should be as easy to body flip as an SDC opponent. The ground may give way before his hard skin, but when it comes to stuff like knockouts, the brain (even if I say it's MDC) wouldn't be hitting SDC ground, it would be hitting his MDC skull. MDC on MDC doesn't always inflict MD to one or either, but sometimes it does, so it's a murky region.

[PSI-Lence]

i would think MD armor must protect very well against all damage (including falling which should hardly scratch the armor) but wouldn't do as well protecting frail sdc joints from being twisted etc (power armor should be much better at both)

Why would preventing mobility beyond a safe range be difficult?

Heck, my SDC jeans are very good at preventing hip abduction.

not saying it should be difficult, just that the joints on body armor would probably be the weakest points, and the fact they are designed to allow movement could torque the joint past what the wearer can do (you have to assume body armor is built to allow people with PP in the 20's to move freely so the armor joint can probably turn more than the average person with a pp of about 10 could) where falling in the prone position and landing chest first on armor meant to take heavy impact straight on to the most armored part would be much easier on the wearer

and of course power armor would have to have mechanical assisted joints so they should resist movement by anything but the pilot much better

as for punching, flipping KO'ing a mdc being that's 6' 200lbs while you might be able to lift them (if they are consenting and not beating you to a pulp) i figure the tendons and tissue more like steel cables and hydraulic pistons, if they tried to punch you and you attempted to flip/throw them it would seem to assume you can use leverage to 'pull' them forward and throw them , but to me it seems more likely you would be unable to move them at all and just end up hanging off their arm or pulling yourself in towards them

even relaxed mdc tissue at it's weakest i would think would be on par with hydraulic's that are turned off (able to be moved but not without considerable effort and not in a shocking or jarring fashion) so while system rules might allow a KO even with no damage i wouldn't allow it unless they did MD or were using something like a nural mace etc

[Tor]

I'm not clear why you'd be unable to move them. They're only rigid if they will to be, and if you use their force then you're adding to their forward momentum and tipping them over.

[PSI-Lence]

I'm not clear why you'd be unable to move them. They're only rigid if they will to be, and if you use their force then you're adding to their forward momentum and tipping them over.

if you think of a mechanical arm (like on an automotive assembly line) with our modern SDC steel which is not as hard as MDC skin and tissue you could attempt to body flip/throw it but all yo will have to show for it is a sore shoulder where you collided with the steel , instead of pulling the arm forward you would just be pulling yourself into the arm and it would hardly budge.

if a being can lift several thousand pounds and punch with more force than tank round then your 200-300lbs even with leverage means nothing

[Tor]

Mechanical arms are usually attached to very heavy objects. My inability to flip them is not so much due to the strength of the arm, but that it's tethered to something with a very heavy and wide and low base of support.

Their strength would matter if they were directly resisting me, but these combat moves rely on anticipating where your opponent is exerting themselves and nudging them off balance.

If someone has set themselves to resist a body flip then they would be tensed against whatever way they THOUGHT I was going to do it... and if I rolled higher, I would dupe them out and go the opposite way, and they help me knock them over.

Of course, someone with 'adhesion' or 'immovability' would clearly not be vulnerable to this. Or someone incredibly heavy or with an incredibly lower center of gravity. Though few rules aid us in reflecting that.

[PSI-Lence]

Mechanical arms are usually attached to very heavy objects. My inability to flip them is not so much due to the strength of the arm, but that it's tethered to something with a very heavy and wide and low base of support.

Their strength would matter if they were directly resisting me, but these combat moves rely on anticipating where your opponent is exerting themselves and nudging them off balance.

If someone has set themselves to resist a body flip then they would be tensed against whatever way they THOUGHT I was going to do it... and if I rolled higher, I would dupe them out and go the opposite way, and they help me knock them over.

Of course, someone with 'adhesion' or 'immovability' would clearly not be vulnerable to this. Or someone incredibly heavy or with an incredibly lower center of gravity. Though few rules aid us in reflecting that.

for something like pushing them over while standing flat footed i agree (if they had no warning you were going to try pushing them over)

but for pulling/flipping like a judo throw, you need to actually pull them using their own momentum and leverage against them, you can assume they would not fall down while trying to punch you so their normal range of motion is not enough for them to fall, to throw them you need to be able to pull them with enough force to throw them off center which i do not see and SDC being capable of

(you could dive for the legs and hold on as tight as you could, but as soon as they started walking they would rip through your arms like tissue paper as well)