RMB techno-wizard energy source conversion

[flatline]

Converting weapons to magical power sources via RMB never made sense. If lasers, ion beams, and plasma weapons all used the same e-clips, why were they converted in such different ways and why were their capacities and damage ratings changed if the only thing converted was the power source?

These were questions we all asked, but yet some GM's used the rules presented anyways. So let's take a look at them.

There are 4 conversions. Each conversion determines the damage per shot, the number of shots, and the PPE cost to recharge. Weapon range was unchanged. Here are the 4 conversions (note that ion weapons have 2 possible conversions):
1. Laser: 2d6MD, 10 shots, 7 PPE to recharge
2. Ion (1): 3d6MD, 10 shots, 20 PPE to recharge
3. Ion (2): 5d6MD, 2 shots, 20 PPE to recharge
4. Plasma: 4d6MD, 5 shots, 12 PPE to recharge

We can calculate how efficient each conversion is from a damage per PPE perspective:
1. Laser: 10MD/PPE
2. Ion (1): 5.25MD/PPE
3. Ion (2): 1.75MD/PPE
4. Plasma: 5.833MD/PPE

With the exception the second Ion conversion, they're not bad from a PPE efficiency perspective. Of course, since you can pay the PPE cost any time before use, the actual efficiency only matters if you're recharging during an encounter.

Obviously, having a weapon that can be recharged with a freely available resource (PPE) can be handy. Now that pulse ion and laser weapons are more common, converted weapons can be competitive with regard to damager per attack. A pulse laser weapon will do 6d6MD on a 3 pulse burst. A pulse ion(1) weapon will do 9d6MD on a 3 pulse burst. The ion(2) conversion only gets a 2 shot capacity and a 2 shot burst isn't enough better than the 3 shot burst from an ion(1) weapon to make it worth while considering the reduced PPE efficiency.

Side note: I had a GM that allowed us to purchase additional capacity when converting weapons. If the book conversion cost was X, then 1.5X would give you 2 times the capacity and 2X would give 3 times the capacity. If your GM has similar house rules, then 3 pulse bursts with an ion(2) weapon become possible which would do 15d6MD (!!!) but effectively burns 30PPE per burst. Still not efficient, but I can see the appeal of such a gun.

What kinds of weapons are good candidates for conversion? Well, since the conversion chosen dictates the damage, this can be an excellent way to improve the damage of an otherwise fine weapon (e.g. Wilk's 320). Weapons with superior range but mediocre damage are also good choices (e.g. JA-9).

Pulse weapons that I think make excellent candidates:
CP-30 Laser Pulse Pistol (or any knock-offs)
L-20 Pulse Laser Rifle (or similar)
NG-IP7 Ion Pulse Rifle
Triax TX-24 Ion Pulse Pistol
Triax TX-30 Ion Pulse Rifle

--flatline

[Shark_Force]

pretty sure that second ion was actually the conversion for particle beam weapons. it turns them into a lightning blaster instead, which is probably conceptually close to ion, but it's listed under particle beam conversions.

and i don't think there are too many pulse particle beam weapons, if any.

(that said, if you want a scary plasma option doesn't ARCHIE make a 5-pulse plasma rifle? sure it's expensive, but 20d6 in a single action is something to consider. you'd want something else to recharge it though... if you had a bound siphon entity, you could make it inhabit the gun and reload it though )

edit: for clarity, ARCHIE doesn't *sell* that pulse plasma rifle. he just makes it. i think it's used by his basic security robots.

[flatline]

RMB p92:
"Particle beam weapons can NOT be converted to magic! However, the wizard can convert an ion blaster into a lightning blaster"

--flatline

[wyrmraker]

RMB p92:
"Particle beam weapons can NOT be converted to magic! However, the wizard can convert an ion blaster into a lightning blaster"

--flatline

I think that that restriction has been overridden with the introduction of Sub-Particle Acceleration.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

RMB p92:
"Particle beam weapons can NOT be converted to magic! However, the wizard can convert an ion blaster into a lightning blaster"

--flatline

I think that that restriction has been overridden with the introduction of Sub-Particle Acceleration.

Partciulary since Merc Ops has a weapon that is a converted particle beam.

(Page 147) - MR-15 TW Particle Beam Rifle. The PPE efficiency on this thing is crazy good. The only downfall it has is short range.

And in case we're wondering, the text is pretty explicit:

"Essentially the MR-15 is simply a TW converted particle beam rifle enchanted with the Sub-Particle Acceleration spell."

It does 1D6x10+10, range of 1200ft, and has 7 blasts. That doesnt seem like much, but it is only 18 PPE to recharge teh thing entirely.

[flatline]

RMB p92:
"Particle beam weapons can NOT be converted to magic! However, the wizard can convert an ion blaster into a lightning blaster"

--flatline

I think that that restriction has been overridden with the introduction of Sub-Particle Acceleration.

Partciulary since Merc Ops has a weapon that is a converted particle beam.

(Page 147) - MR-15 TW Particle Beam Rifle. The PPE efficiency on this thing is crazy good. The only downfall it has is short range.

And in case we're wondering, the text is pretty explicit:

"Essentially the MR-15 is simply a TW converted particle beam rifle enchanted with the Sub-Particle Acceleration spell."

It does 1D6x10+10, range of 1200ft, and has 7 blasts. That doesnt seem like much, but it is only 18 PPE to recharge teh thing entirely.

I don't really consider 1200' to be short range.

PPE efficiency for this thing is 45*7/18 = 17.5MD/PPE. That ranks up there with the most efficient canon weapons.

For comparison:
Xiticix TK Rifle: 28MD/PPE
TW Nuhr Firebolt Musket: 26.5MD/PPE
TW Nuhr Firebolt Pistol: 19.6MD/PPE
TW Laser: 10MD/PPE
TW Fireburst Rifle: 9.167MD/PPE
TW Naut'Yll Sonic Rifle: 8.75MD/PPE
TW Old Lightning Rifle: 7MD/PPE

Most everything else is well below 7. Heck, anything above 5 is pretty good. Naturally, I'm ignoring area effect weapons.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

Converting weapons to magical power sources via RMB never made sense. If lasers, ion beams, and plasma weapons all used the same e-clips, why were they converted in such different ways and why were their capacities and damage ratings changed if the only thing converted was the power source?

I'd say that that the power source is NOT the only thing converted.
We know that this is clearly true in the case of ion beams, and it stands to reason that it was the case with the other weapons as well.

What kinds of weapons are good candidates for conversion? Well, since the conversion chosen dictates the damage, this can be an excellent way to improve the damage of an otherwise fine weapon (e.g. Wilk's 320). Weapons with superior range but mediocre damage are also good choices (e.g. JA-9).

Right- I typically did Wilk's 320s, for the strike bonus.
A Wilk's Laser Wand would have been a good idea too, but I didn't think of it at the time. Or, for that matter, a Wilk's Laser Scalpel.
(Not sure about a Wilk's Laser Flashlight. _
As would a NG-H5 Holdout Ion Pistol. The range is only 200', but the damage would increase from 1d4+1 MD to either 3d6 or 5d6 MD depending.
The ammo for the NG-H5 is only 6 to start with, so you could boost that to 10 shots with the 3d6 conversion, or drop it to 2 shots at 5d6 MD. Either way, it's superior as a TW conversion.

Pulse weapons that I think make excellent candidates:
CP-30 Laser Pulse Pistol (or any knock-offs)
L-20 Pulse Laser Rifle (or similar)
NG-IP7 Ion Pulse Rifle
Triax TX-24 Ion Pulse Pistol
Triax TX-30 Ion Pulse Rifle

Weirdly enough, we never thought of converting pulse weapons. I think that we assumed that the conversions were single-shot or something. Then again, we rarely had any techno-wizards, so that's probably part of it too.
I like the idea of the pulse weapon conversions, though.

Here's an old-school one for you:
The Arch-22 Pulse Rifle from SB1:
22 lbs
MD 1d6/shot, with a 5-shot pulse capability
3,000' range
80 single shots or 16 pulses.

It would still be a very heavy weapon to carry for a normal human, but it might lighter without the heavy-duty energy clip and other components.
It would only have 10 shots, so that's only 2 pulses... but those pulses would inflict 1d6x10 MD, which is still some pretty decent damage. The range is pretty respectable too, at 3,000'.

Any ion pulse pistol, like the M-18 Ion Pulse Pistol from Mindwerks would see an increase in power, although that weapon is for giants (gargoyles/brodkil).

Another interesting noting, I think, is combo-weapons.
The JA-11, for example would lose some power to the laser (4d6 dropped to 2d6), but the Ion Blaster could be converted to a Lightning Blaster, inflicting 5d6/shot with some pretty decent range.
So for low-powered sniping from a long distance, you could stick to the laser. For higher-powered sniping at closer range, you could use the Lightning Blaster.
No rules for converting a single-shot rifle, unfortunately, because turning the 7.65mm to a TK rifle would help make a TW JA-11 into a pretty darned good sniper's weapon.

The rules are unclear, but it would seem to me that each energy type for this kind of rifle would have it's own energy supply.
So with the JA-11, you'd have 10 laser blasts, and 2 Lightning Blasts, for a total of 12 shots.
That could have interesting implications for energy weapons that had different settings. A C-12, for example, has a 2d6 MD laser setting AND a 6d6 SDC laser setting.
Would a TW conversion of this weapon have a single laser that inflicts 2d6 MD and holds 10 rounds total, or would it have two separate lasers that each inflicted 2d6 MD, and each had 10 rounds, for a total of 20 rounds?
If the latter, then that would have interesting implications for weapons like the NG-57, which has two Ion settings, 2d4 MD and 3d6 MD.
If each setting counted as a separate weapon, then you could have a variety of results:
1. A pistol that has two 3d6 MD ion beams in it, each of which has 10 rounds, for a total of 20 blasts- doubling the original capacity while retaining the original damage.
2. A pistol that has a 3d6 MD setting with 10 shots, and a 5d6 setting with 2 shots. Same as the original weapon, BUT with 2 lightning blasts!
3. A pistol that does 5d6 MD and 2 shots per setting, for a total of 4 shots at 5d6 MD. Which is also arguably superior to the original weapon.

Then there's the WR-17 Wilderness "Double" Rifle. It has a 3d6 or 4d6 MD ion setting, and a 2d6 MD laser setting.
With a more conservative GM that doesn't allow each setting to count as its own energy weapon, that's still a decent weapon.
The laser damage would remain the same (2d6 MD). The 3d6 Ion blast would lose 1d6 off of its maximum setting, but it would retain the ability to fire both beams at once for the same 5d6 MD as normal. The payload would go from 20 shots that could be divided between either beam, to having 10 shots per each beam. Which nets out about the same.
OR
You'd have a 2d6 MD laser with 10 shots, and a 5d6 MD lightning blaster with 2 shots.
Retaining the combo-blast, you could fire up to two combo blasts for 7d6 MD, which isn't too shabby.
OR
If your GM does allow each setting to count as its own beam, then you'd have one of the following:
-A gun with a 2d6 MD laser (10 shots), a 3d6 Ion beam (10 shots), and another 3d6 MD Ion Beam (10 shots), for a total of 30 shots, 50% more than with the original weapon.
-A gun with a 2d6 MD laser (10 shots), a 3d6 MD ion beam (10 shots), and a 5d6 MD lightning blaster (2 shots).
So you'd net out the same as the original weapon, except with 2 extra lightning blasts for use in emergencies (7d6 MD as above).
-A gun with a 2d6 MD laser (10 shots, and two different lightning blasters, each with 2 shots at 5d6 MD.
In which case you could use your laser most of the time, with lightning for emergencies, and up to 4 combo laser/lightning dual-blasts at 7d6 MD each.

The WI-LP3 Pepperbox Laser Pistol would be nice. Firing all four barrels at once would inflict 8d6 MD.
Plus, since you have 4 different barrels and 4 different power batteries, each barrel should count as a separate laser even with conservative GM's.
So the weapon would go from 4 shots total, to 40 shots total.
You could fire 10 blasts at 8d6 MD with this weapon before running out of ammo!
Of course, the range is still crap (100'), but it IS just a hold-out gun.

[flatline]

The WI-LP3 Pepperbox Laser Pistol would be nice. Firing all four barrels at once would inflict 8d6 MD.
Plus, since you have 4 different barrels and 4 different power batteries, each barrel should count as a separate laser even with conservative GM's.
So the weapon would go from 4 shots total, to 40 shots total.
You could fire 10 blasts at 8d6 MD with this weapon before running out of ammo!
Of course, the range is still crap (100'), but it IS just a hold-out gun.

Hmm...I've never considered the Pepperbox before. It's essentially 4 guns in one extremely small form factor, so if the GM didn't rule that size was an issue, it would be a great little candidate for TW conversion.

I wonder how you select how many barrels fire at a time. It's not mentioned in the GMG description.

It doesn't look all that comfortable to shoot, but with a grip extender and maybe a longer barrel...

--flatline

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I'd say that that the power source is NOT the only thing converted.
We know that this is clearly true in the case of ion beams, and it stands to reason that it was the case with the other weapons as well.

not sure i agree here;

RMB, page 91 - Laser Energy Weapons, under the heading 'Duration of Charge' - "10 laser blasts that inflict 2D6 M.D. per blast, the weapon's range is unchanged, only the power source is different."

... and they actually ALL say that.

Like everything else in Rifts, it's confusing, particularly for the Ion Blaster (type 2 conversion) where it says clearly that it is turning it into a "Lightning Blaster", but retains the "only the power source is different" text.

Yay for cut and paste.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'd say that that the power source is NOT the only thing converted.
We know that this is clearly true in the case of ion beams, and it stands to reason that it was the case with the other weapons as well.

not sure i agree here;

RMB, page 91 - Laser Energy Weapons, under the heading 'Duration of Charge' - "10 laser blasts that inflict 2D6 M.D. per blast, the weapon's range is unchanged, only the power source is different."

... and they actually ALL say that.

Like everything else in Rifts, it's confusing, particularly for the Ion Blaster (type 2 conversion) where it says clearly that it is turning it into a "Lightning Blaster", but retains the "only the power source is different" text.

Yay for cut and paste.

Yeah, it says that.
But the flat listed damage conflicts with the "only the power source is changed" part.
And the "ion beams can be turned into lightning" part conflicts.
So I'd say that it's outvoted by other canon.

[Killer Cyborg]

The WI-LP3 Pepperbox Laser Pistol would be nice. Firing all four barrels at once would inflict 8d6 MD.
Plus, since you have 4 different barrels and 4 different power batteries, each barrel should count as a separate laser even with conservative GM's.
So the weapon would go from 4 shots total, to 40 shots total.
You could fire 10 blasts at 8d6 MD with this weapon before running out of ammo!
Of course, the range is still crap (100'), but it IS just a hold-out gun.

Hmm...I've never considered the Pepperbox before. It's essentially 4 guns in one extremely small form factor, so if the GM didn't rule that size was an issue, it would be a great little candidate for TW conversion.

I wonder how you select how many barrels fire at a time. It's not mentioned in the GMG description.

It doesn't look all that comfortable to shoot, but with a grip extender and maybe a longer barrel...

--flatline

I think that with that kind of gun, the trigger tends to have a long pull with 4 clicks.

[flatline]

The WI-LP3 Pepperbox Laser Pistol would be nice. Firing all four barrels at once would inflict 8d6 MD.
Plus, since you have 4 different barrels and 4 different power batteries, each barrel should count as a separate laser even with conservative GM's.
So the weapon would go from 4 shots total, to 40 shots total.
You could fire 10 blasts at 8d6 MD with this weapon before running out of ammo!
Of course, the range is still crap (100'), but it IS just a hold-out gun.

Hmm...I've never considered the Pepperbox before. It's essentially 4 guns in one extremely small form factor, so if the GM didn't rule that size was an issue, it would be a great little candidate for TW conversion.

I wonder how you select how many barrels fire at a time. It's not mentioned in the GMG description.

It doesn't look all that comfortable to shoot, but with a grip extender and maybe a longer barrel...

--flatline

I think that with that kind of gun, the trigger tends to have a long pull with 4 clicks.

I think that in retrospect, assuming the GM allows it, I'd rather have 4 TK pistols built into a single frame than 4 lasers. The combined damage would be 8d4 instead of 8d6, but it would be kinetic damage and the range would be improved.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

The WI-LP3 Pepperbox Laser Pistol would be nice. Firing all four barrels at once would inflict 8d6 MD.
Plus, since you have 4 different barrels and 4 different power batteries, each barrel should count as a separate laser even with conservative GM's.
So the weapon would go from 4 shots total, to 40 shots total.
You could fire 10 blasts at 8d6 MD with this weapon before running out of ammo!
Of course, the range is still crap (100'), but it IS just a hold-out gun.

Hmm...I've never considered the Pepperbox before. It's essentially 4 guns in one extremely small form factor, so if the GM didn't rule that size was an issue, it would be a great little candidate for TW conversion.

I wonder how you select how many barrels fire at a time. It's not mentioned in the GMG description.

It doesn't look all that comfortable to shoot, but with a grip extender and maybe a longer barrel...

--flatline

I think that with that kind of gun, the trigger tends to have a long pull with 4 clicks.

I think that in retrospect, assuming the GM allows it, I'd rather have 4 TK pistols built into a single frame than 4 lasers. The combined damage would be 8d4 instead of 8d6, but it would be kinetic damage and the range would be improved.

--flatline

Yeah, but the original conversion rules only allowed for TK machineguns and/or assault rifles, not SMGs or pistols.
So you'd have to make new rules, and you might as well just come up with a new TW weapon altogether.

[Tor]

Best candidates are always those with the best range since that's the only property retained

If lasers, ion beams, and plasma weapons all used the same e-clips, why were they converted in such different ways

This is because the weapons generated different effects from that energy, and different spells are used to reproduce those effects in the TW versions.

and why were their capacities and damage ratings changed if the only thing converted was the power source?

The power source isn't the only thing changed, the entire system was ripped up.

With the exception the second Ion conversion, they're not bad from a PPE efficiency perspective.

That's probably because you can't stick close to the original design and had to rebuild it as a lightning blaster. =/

since you can pay the PPE cost any time before use, the actual efficiency only matters if you're recharging during an encounter.

Not really, it also matters for recharging between battles, you don't always have infinite time for that. TWs don't always have access to people to leech PPE from, and ley lines didn't use to be as generous as they are now. Now with them all souped up, the people-leeching is nerfed, so there are always speedbumps.

[flatline]

The WI-LP3 Pepperbox Laser Pistol would be nice. Firing all four barrels at once would inflict 8d6 MD.
Plus, since you have 4 different barrels and 4 different power batteries, each barrel should count as a separate laser even with conservative GM's.
So the weapon would go from 4 shots total, to 40 shots total.
You could fire 10 blasts at 8d6 MD with this weapon before running out of ammo!
Of course, the range is still crap (100'), but it IS just a hold-out gun.

Hmm...I've never considered the Pepperbox before. It's essentially 4 guns in one extremely small form factor, so if the GM didn't rule that size was an issue, it would be a great little candidate for TW conversion.

I wonder how you select how many barrels fire at a time. It's not mentioned in the GMG description.

It doesn't look all that comfortable to shoot, but with a grip extender and maybe a longer barrel...

--flatline

I think that with that kind of gun, the trigger tends to have a long pull with 4 clicks.

I think that in retrospect, assuming the GM allows it, I'd rather have 4 TK pistols built into a single frame than 4 lasers. The combined damage would be 8d4 instead of 8d6, but it would be kinetic damage and the range would be improved.

--flatline

Yeah, but the original conversion rules only allowed for TK machineguns and/or assault rifles, not SMGs or pistols.
So you'd have to make new rules, and you might as well just come up with a new TW weapon altogether.

All the TK weapons in BoM (pistol, rifle, etc), were they introduced in New West?

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

the original conversion rules only allowed for TK machineguns and/or assault rifles, not SMGs or pistols.
So you'd have to make new rules, and you might as well just come up with a new TW weapon altogether.

All the TK weapons in BoM (pistol, rifle, etc), were they introduced in New West?

--flatline

Yup.
Or in some other book. The only TK weapons in the RMB were TW converted machine guns and Xiticix Rifles.
New West is the first book I remember seeing new TK weapons in, though there might have been something that popped up earlier.

[ShadowLogan]

Converting weapons to magical power sources via RMB never made sense. If lasers, ion beams, and plasma weapons all used the same e-clips, why were they converted in such different ways and why were their capacities and damage ratings changed if the only thing converted was the power source?

I have a few ideas, and might even mix:
1. The energy produced isn't a perfect match resulting in loss of performance, but is still close enough to allow the device to function.

2. The magic energy may not be stored in the technological aspect, but the required gems, and those gems may only be able to hold so much magic energy (case in point Stone Magic in WB2 allows diamonds to hold 25 PPE per carrot). The TW then may try to "tune" the weapon for the best blend of performance (dmg/rng/rof) and endurance (payload) without really changing things other than the power pack and its distribution system.

3. If there are any other gem/crystals in the device as part of its normal function, they might set up some type of interference with the magic gem/crystals being added that alters performance (artificial stones don't work in place of natural stones, so it is possible mixing the two in TW might impact performance) since they have not been "magic-ified"

[wyrmraker]

Converting weapons to magical power sources via RMB never made sense. If lasers, ion beams, and plasma weapons all used the same e-clips, why were they converted in such different ways and why were their capacities and damage ratings changed if the only thing converted was the power source?

I have a few ideas, and might even mix:
1. The energy produced isn't a perfect match resulting in loss of performance, but is still close enough to allow the device to function.

2. The magic energy may not be stored in the technological aspect, but the required gems, and those gems may only be able to hold so much magic energy (case in point Stone Magic in WB2 allows diamonds to hold 25 PPE per carrot). The TW then may try to "tune" the weapon for the best blend of performance (dmg/rng/rof) and endurance (payload) without really changing things other than the power pack and its distribution system.

3. If there are any other gem/crystals in the device as part of its normal function, they might set up some type of interference with the magic gem/crystals being added that alters performance (artificial stones don't work in place of natural stones, so it is possible mixing the two in TW might impact performance) since they have not been "magic-ified"

TW Creation Rules state, RUE p. 131, that Emeralds can hold 10 P.P.E. per carat, and Diamonds 20 per carat. In addition, it specifically states that only artifically made Diamond and Zircon cannot be used for TW items (not sure of the exact page in RUE, but I know it's in there somewhere).

EDIT: I found it. RUE p. 134, in the section titled 'Gems Required for Non-Invocation Spell Magic', at the end of the paragraph 'About Precious Stones'. It states: "Note: Synthetic diamond and synthetic zircon (man-made) no not work in Techno-Wizardry."

[flatline]

Converting weapons to magical power sources via RMB never made sense. If lasers, ion beams, and plasma weapons all used the same e-clips, why were they converted in such different ways and why were their capacities and damage ratings changed if the only thing converted was the power source?

I have a few ideas, and might even mix:
1. The energy produced isn't a perfect match resulting in loss of performance, but is still close enough to allow the device to function.

That doesn't explain why weaker weapons are improved (e.g. Wilk's 320 does 1d6MD, but after conversion does 2d6MD).

If the power source were the only thing being replaced, then the damage would be unaffected (for better or for worse).

--flatline

[wyrmraker]

Converting weapons to magical power sources via RMB never made sense. If lasers, ion beams, and plasma weapons all used the same e-clips, why were they converted in such different ways and why were their capacities and damage ratings changed if the only thing converted was the power source?

I have a few ideas, and might even mix:
1. The energy produced isn't a perfect match resulting in loss of performance, but is still close enough to allow the device to function.

That doesn't explain why weaker weapons are improved (e.g. Wilk's 320 does 1d6MD, but after conversion does 2d6MD).

If the power source were the only thing being replaced, then the damage would be unaffected (for better or for worse).

--flatline

I may be being cynical here, but I do have an answer.
Why does it work like that? Because it's magic.
How does it work? Like magic.
Why doesn't it have to make sense? Because it's magic! Magic doesn't have to obey the Laws of Physics, because it's magic! It can do whatever we want, because it's magic!
'It's magic!' is the only excuse the writers really need, honestly.

[Nightmask]

Converting weapons to magical power sources via RMB never made sense. If lasers, ion beams, and plasma weapons all used the same e-clips, why were they converted in such different ways and why were their capacities and damage ratings changed if the only thing converted was the power source?

I have a few ideas, and might even mix:
1. The energy produced isn't a perfect match resulting in loss of performance, but is still close enough to allow the device to function.

That doesn't explain why weaker weapons are improved (e.g. Wilk's 320 does 1d6MD, but after conversion does 2d6MD).

If the power source were the only thing being replaced, then the damage would be unaffected (for better or for worse).

--flatline

I may be being cynical here, but I do have an answer.
Why does it work like that? Because it's magic.
How does it work? Like magic.
Why doesn't it have to make sense? Because it's magic! Magic doesn't have to obey the Laws of Physics, because it's magic! It can do whatever we want, because it's magic!
'It's magic!' is the only excuse the writers really need, honestly.

Bad excuses are bad excuses no matter how you try and present them, and 'it's magic' is pretty much the worst around. We're also talking TECHNO-wizardry, not standard magical practices. It uses technology as its basis and has to work within that framework. The techno-wizard rules on converting energy weapons say it's only converting the power source, so there's zero reason for it to change the damage or range on the weapon if all you changed was the battery. The Gizmoteer's psi-tech conversion follows that rule better than the techno-wizard does, the weapon's range and damage don't change at all just the power source.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Converting weapons to magical power sources via RMB never made sense. If lasers, ion beams, and plasma weapons all used the same e-clips, why were they converted in such different ways and why were their capacities and damage ratings changed if the only thing converted was the power source?

I have a few ideas, and might even mix:
1. The energy produced isn't a perfect match resulting in loss of performance, but is still close enough to allow the device to function.

That doesn't explain why weaker weapons are improved (e.g. Wilk's 320 does 1d6MD, but after conversion does 2d6MD).

If the power source were the only thing being replaced, then the damage would be unaffected (for better or for worse).

--flatline

I may be being cynical here, but I do have an answer.
Why does it work like that? Because it's magic.
How does it work? Like magic.
Why doesn't it have to make sense? Because it's magic! Magic doesn't have to obey the Laws of Physics, because it's magic! It can do whatever we want, because it's magic!
'It's magic!' is the only excuse the writers really need, honestly.

Bad excuses are bad excuses no matter how you try and present them, and 'it's magic' is pretty much the worst around. We're also talking TECHNO-wizardry, not standard magical practices. It uses technology as its basis and has to work within that framework.

No, it uses technology MIXED with magic. Neither one is categorically "the basis". It's a hybrid.

The techno-wizard rules on converting energy weapons

Out-of-date rules, that no longer actually exist. Unless you can point out a reference in R:UE to converting weapons.

say it's only converting the power source,

And, as KC pointed out, they also say that they are changing the damage, and in some cases, the output (from an ion gun to a lightning blaster, for instance). One part of the description almost directly conflicts with the other.

so there's zero reason for it to change the damage or range on the weapon if all you changed was the battery.

Well, since the damage DOES change, then obviously you're changing more than the battery. Unless of course you can find me the Particle Beam rifle that the MW-15 is based on that does 1d6x10+10 base damage.

The Gizmoteer's psi-tech conversion follows that rule better than the techno-wizard does, the weapon's range and damage don't change at all just the power source.

Gizmoteers aren't Technowizards. Technowizards aren't Gizmoteers. One uses magic, the other uses psionics.

[eliakon]

Converting weapons to magical power sources via RMB never made sense. If lasers, ion beams, and plasma weapons all used the same e-clips, why were they converted in such different ways and why were their capacities and damage ratings changed if the only thing converted was the power source?

I have a few ideas, and might even mix:
1. The energy produced isn't a perfect match resulting in loss of performance, but is still close enough to allow the device to function.

That doesn't explain why weaker weapons are improved (e.g. Wilk's 320 does 1d6MD, but after conversion does 2d6MD).

If the power source were the only thing being replaced, then the damage would be unaffected (for better or for worse).

--flatline

I may be being cynical here, but I do have an answer.
Why does it work like that? Because it's magic.
How does it work? Like magic.
Why doesn't it have to make sense? Because it's magic! Magic doesn't have to obey the Laws of Physics, because it's magic! It can do whatever we want, because it's magic!
'It's magic!' is the only excuse the writers really need, honestly.

Bad excuses are bad excuses no matter how you try and present them, and 'it's magic' is pretty much the worst around. <snip>.

You may not LIKE it, but its pretty much what we are dealing with. The laws of magic, while probably internally consistant, are not something that we are privy to. Magic in Palladium is a Black Box (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box) We get to see the results, and we know some of the things that will get those results, but generally we don't know WHY doing X results in Y (usually, except when you get Z).
So the answer to why a conversion works a certain way has no other answer than Its Magic, that IS the answer.

[ShadowLogan]

I have a few ideas, and might even mix:
1. The energy produced isn't a perfect match resulting in loss of performance, but is still close enough to allow the device to function.

That doesn't explain why weaker weapons are improved (e.g. Wilk's 320 does 1d6MD, but after conversion does 2d6MD).

If the power source were the only thing being replaced, then the damage would be unaffected (for better or for worse).

--flatline

True. So why not change #1 to "The energy produced isn't a perfect match resulting in a change in performance, but is still close enough to allow the device to function."

Personally I am disinclined toward #1 in anycase given PPE Channeling in WB16 (IIRC it was Mystic Knight OCC ability) or "Sub-particle acceleration" Spell as both are RMB-era and can recharge the clip w/o issue. So what ever it is, I doubt it relates to the actual energy, but it would still be an option.

TW Creation Rules state, RUE p. 131, that Emeralds can hold 10 P.P.E. per carat, and Diamonds 20 per carat. In addition, it specifically states that only artifically made Diamond and Zircon cannot be used for TW items (not sure of the exact page in RUE, but I know it's in there somewhere).

EDIT: I found it. RUE p. 134, in the section titled 'Gems Required for Non-Invocation Spell Magic', at the end of the paragraph 'About Precious Stones'. It states: "Note: Synthetic diamond and synthetic zircon (man-made) no not work in Techno-Wizardry."

I am familiar with the rules in RUE, but the conversation is about the Rifts Main Book version of those rules. There is a similar mention made in RMB about artificial stones, but I assume (in both versions) that is a reference to the added gems for TWdry and not to the baseline system.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Sorry to disappoint but the only energy source conversion for tech weapons is when the e-clip or battery is enchanted to convert mystic power into electrical power.

All others "conversions" are "Making a magic thing out of high tech bits and parts."

[Tor]

Out-of-date rules, that no longer actually exist. Unless you can point out a reference in R:UE to converting weapons.

RMB rules still exist. Being in a non-ultimate main book doesn't make rules vanish. Unless you want to point out where RUE is mentioned as utterly eradicating its predecessor rather than complimenting it.

[ZINO]

Converting weapons to magical power sources via RMB never made sense. If lasers, ion beams, and plasma weapons all used the same e-clips, why were they converted in such different ways and why were their capacities and damage ratings changed if the only thing converted was the power source?

These were questions we all asked, but yet some GM's used the rules presented anyways. So let's take a look at them.

There are 4 conversions. Each conversion determines the damage per shot, the number of shots, and the PPE cost to recharge. Weapon range was unchanged. Here are the 4 conversions (note that ion weapons have 2 possible conversions):
1. Laser: 2d6MD, 10 shots, 7 PPE to recharge
2. Ion (1): 3d6MD, 10 shots, 20 PPE to recharge
3. Ion (2): 5d6MD, 2 shots, 20 PPE to recharge
4. Plasma: 4d6MD, 5 shots, 12 PPE to recharge

We can calculate how efficient each conversion is from a damage per PPE perspective:
1. Laser: 10MD/PPE
2. Ion (1): 5.25MD/PPE
3. Ion (2): 1.75MD/PPE
4. Plasma: 5.833MD/PPE

With the exception the second Ion conversion, they're not bad from a PPE efficiency perspective. Of course, since you can pay the PPE cost any time before use, the actual efficiency only matters if you're recharging during an encounter.

Obviously, having a weapon that can be recharged with a freely available resource (PPE) can be handy. Now that pulse ion and laser weapons are more common, converted weapons can be competitive with regard to damager per attack. A pulse laser weapon will do 6d6MD on a 3 pulse burst. A pulse ion(1) weapon will do 9d6MD on a 3 pulse burst. The ion(2) conversion only gets a 2 shot capacity and a 2 shot burst isn't enough better than the 3 shot burst from an ion(1) weapon to make it worth while considering the reduced PPE efficiency.

Side note: I had a GM that allowed us to purchase additional capacity when converting weapons. If the book conversion cost was X, then 1.5X would give you 2 times the capacity and 2X would give 3 times the capacity. If your GM has similar house rules, then 3 pulse bursts with an ion(2) weapon become possible which would do 15d6MD (!!!) but effectively burns 30PPE per burst. Still not efficient, but I can see the appeal of such a gun.

What kinds of weapons are good candidates for conversion? Well, since the conversion chosen dictates the damage, this can be an excellent way to improve the damage of an otherwise fine weapon (e.g. Wilk's 320). Weapons with superior range but mediocre damage are also good choices (e.g. JA-9).

Pulse weapons that I think make excellent candidates:
CP-30 Laser Pulse Pistol (or any knock-offs)
L-20 Pulse Laser Rifle (or similar)
NG-IP7 Ion Pulse Rifle
Triax TX-24 Ion Pulse Pistol
Triax TX-30 Ion Pulse Rifle

--flatline

flatline Are these your home rule or official rules ?

[flatline]

Converting weapons to magical power sources via RMB never made sense. If lasers, ion beams, and plasma weapons all used the same e-clips, why were they converted in such different ways and why were their capacities and damage ratings changed if the only thing converted was the power source?

These were questions we all asked, but yet some GM's used the rules presented anyways. So let's take a look at them.

There are 4 conversions. Each conversion determines the damage per shot, the number of shots, and the PPE cost to recharge. Weapon range was unchanged. Here are the 4 conversions (note that ion weapons have 2 possible conversions):
1. Laser: 2d6MD, 10 shots, 7 PPE to recharge
2. Ion (1): 3d6MD, 10 shots, 20 PPE to recharge
3. Ion (2): 5d6MD, 2 shots, 20 PPE to recharge
4. Plasma: 4d6MD, 5 shots, 12 PPE to recharge

We can calculate how efficient each conversion is from a damage per PPE perspective:
1. Laser: 10MD/PPE
2. Ion (1): 5.25MD/PPE
3. Ion (2): 1.75MD/PPE
4. Plasma: 5.833MD/PPE

With the exception the second Ion conversion, they're not bad from a PPE efficiency perspective. Of course, since you can pay the PPE cost any time before use, the actual efficiency only matters if you're recharging during an encounter.

Obviously, having a weapon that can be recharged with a freely available resource (PPE) can be handy. Now that pulse ion and laser weapons are more common, converted weapons can be competitive with regard to damager per attack. A pulse laser weapon will do 6d6MD on a 3 pulse burst. A pulse ion(1) weapon will do 9d6MD on a 3 pulse burst. The ion(2) conversion only gets a 2 shot capacity and a 2 shot burst isn't enough better than the 3 shot burst from an ion(1) weapon to make it worth while considering the reduced PPE efficiency.

Side note: I had a GM that allowed us to purchase additional capacity when converting weapons. If the book conversion cost was X, then 1.5X would give you 2 times the capacity and 2X would give 3 times the capacity. If your GM has similar house rules, then 3 pulse bursts with an ion(2) weapon become possible which would do 15d6MD (!!!) but effectively burns 30PPE per burst. Still not efficient, but I can see the appeal of such a gun.

What kinds of weapons are good candidates for conversion? Well, since the conversion chosen dictates the damage, this can be an excellent way to improve the damage of an otherwise fine weapon (e.g. Wilk's 320). Weapons with superior range but mediocre damage are also good choices (e.g. JA-9).

Pulse weapons that I think make excellent candidates:
CP-30 Laser Pulse Pistol (or any knock-offs)
L-20 Pulse Laser Rifle (or similar)
NG-IP7 Ion Pulse Rifle
Triax TX-24 Ion Pulse Pistol
Triax TX-30 Ion Pulse Rifle

--flatline

flatline Are these your home rule or official rules ?

These rules were official as of RMB. Whether you think they're official in the RUE-era is entirely up to you.

When I get home, I'll try to remember to give you a page number (if someone else doesn't beat me to it)

--flatline

[ZINO]

Converting weapons to magical power sources via RMB never made sense. If lasers, ion beams, and plasma weapons all used the same e-clips, why were they converted in such different ways and why were their capacities and damage ratings changed if the only thing converted was the power source?

These were questions we all asked, but yet some GM's used the rules presented anyways. So let's take a look at them.

There are 4 conversions. Each conversion determines the damage per shot, the number of shots, and the PPE cost to recharge. Weapon range was unchanged. Here are the 4 conversions (note that ion weapons have 2 possible conversions):
1. Laser: 2d6MD, 10 shots, 7 PPE to recharge
2. Ion (1): 3d6MD, 10 shots, 20 PPE to recharge
3. Ion (2): 5d6MD, 2 shots, 20 PPE to recharge
4. Plasma: 4d6MD, 5 shots, 12 PPE to recharge

We can calculate how efficient each conversion is from a damage per PPE perspective:
1. Laser: 10MD/PPE
2. Ion (1): 5.25MD/PPE
3. Ion (2): 1.75MD/PPE
4. Plasma: 5.833MD/PPE

With the exception the second Ion conversion, they're not bad from a PPE efficiency perspective. Of course, since you can pay the PPE cost any time before use, the actual efficiency only matters if you're recharging during an encounter.

Obviously, having a weapon that can be recharged with a freely available resource (PPE) can be handy. Now that pulse ion and laser weapons are more common, converted weapons can be competitive with regard to damager per attack. A pulse laser weapon will do 6d6MD on a 3 pulse burst. A pulse ion(1) weapon will do 9d6MD on a 3 pulse burst. The ion(2) conversion only gets a 2 shot capacity and a 2 shot burst isn't enough better than the 3 shot burst from an ion(1) weapon to make it worth while considering the reduced PPE efficiency.

Side note: I had a GM that allowed us to purchase additional capacity when converting weapons. If the book conversion cost was X, then 1.5X would give you 2 times the capacity and 2X would give 3 times the capacity. If your GM has similar house rules, then 3 pulse bursts with an ion(2) weapon become possible which would do 15d6MD (!!!) but effectively burns 30PPE per burst. Still not efficient, but I can see the appeal of such a gun.

What kinds of weapons are good candidates for conversion? Well, since the conversion chosen dictates the damage, this can be an excellent way to improve the damage of an otherwise fine weapon (e.g. Wilk's 320). Weapons with superior range but mediocre damage are also good choices (e.g. JA-9).

Pulse weapons that I think make excellent candidates:
CP-30 Laser Pulse Pistol (or any knock-offs)
L-20 Pulse Laser Rifle (or similar)
NG-IP7 Ion Pulse Rifle
Triax TX-24 Ion Pulse Pistol
Triax TX-30 Ion Pulse Rifle

--flatline

flatline Are these your home rule or official rules ?

These rules were official as of RMB. Whether you think they're official in the RUE-era is entirely up to you.

When I get home, I'll try to remember to give you a page number (if someone else doesn't beat me to it)

--flatline

this will be so helpful to use

[flatline]

Converting weapons to magical power sources via RMB never made sense. If lasers, ion beams, and plasma weapons all used the same e-clips, why were they converted in such different ways and why were their capacities and damage ratings changed if the only thing converted was the power source?

These were questions we all asked, but yet some GM's used the rules presented anyways. So let's take a look at them.

There are 4 conversions. Each conversion determines the damage per shot, the number of shots, and the PPE cost to recharge. Weapon range was unchanged. Here are the 4 conversions (note that ion weapons have 2 possible conversions):
1. Laser: 2d6MD, 10 shots, 7 PPE to recharge
2. Ion (1): 3d6MD, 10 shots, 20 PPE to recharge
3. Ion (2): 5d6MD, 2 shots, 20 PPE to recharge
4. Plasma: 4d6MD, 5 shots, 12 PPE to recharge

We can calculate how efficient each conversion is from a damage per PPE perspective:
1. Laser: 10MD/PPE
2. Ion (1): 5.25MD/PPE
3. Ion (2): 1.75MD/PPE
4. Plasma: 5.833MD/PPE

With the exception the second Ion conversion, they're not bad from a PPE efficiency perspective. Of course, since you can pay the PPE cost any time before use, the actual efficiency only matters if you're recharging during an encounter.

Obviously, having a weapon that can be recharged with a freely available resource (PPE) can be handy. Now that pulse ion and laser weapons are more common, converted weapons can be competitive with regard to damager per attack. A pulse laser weapon will do 6d6MD on a 3 pulse burst. A pulse ion(1) weapon will do 9d6MD on a 3 pulse burst. The ion(2) conversion only gets a 2 shot capacity and a 2 shot burst isn't enough better than the 3 shot burst from an ion(1) weapon to make it worth while considering the reduced PPE efficiency.

Side note: I had a GM that allowed us to purchase additional capacity when converting weapons. If the book conversion cost was X, then 1.5X would give you 2 times the capacity and 2X would give 3 times the capacity. If your GM has similar house rules, then 3 pulse bursts with an ion(2) weapon become possible which would do 15d6MD (!!!) but effectively burns 30PPE per burst. Still not efficient, but I can see the appeal of such a gun.

What kinds of weapons are good candidates for conversion? Well, since the conversion chosen dictates the damage, this can be an excellent way to improve the damage of an otherwise fine weapon (e.g. Wilk's 320). Weapons with superior range but mediocre damage are also good choices (e.g. JA-9).

Pulse weapons that I think make excellent candidates:
CP-30 Laser Pulse Pistol (or any knock-offs)
L-20 Pulse Laser Rifle (or similar)
NG-IP7 Ion Pulse Rifle
Triax TX-24 Ion Pulse Pistol
Triax TX-30 Ion Pulse Rifle

--flatline

flatline Are these your home rule or official rules ?

These rules were official as of RMB. Whether you think they're official in the RUE-era is entirely up to you.

When I get home, I'll try to remember to give you a page number (if someone else doesn't beat me to it)

--flatline

this will be so helpful to use

If you've got RMB, look in the Technowizard description. It's part of that.

Edit: Earlier in this thread, I said it was on page 92 of RMB. I'm usually trustworthy...

--flatline

[Tor]

Hm... pulse weapons...

That's actually a genius idea to make those damage stats serviceable.

You usually see 3-pulse, occasionally a 2-pulse (can't recall where I saw the latter though... but I'm sure I remember it) but does anyone recall if there were any 4 pulse weapons out there?

Aside from standard bursting rules, of course. By default we're to assume ALL energy weapons are burst-capable using standard x2/x3/x7 rules per CB

[Shark_Force]

the wilk's 567 apparently can do anywhere from 1-5 pulses. it also looks exceptionally efficient, i'm surprised this one hasn't caught flatline's attention for standard use (ie unmodified) as well. it also features a very nice range, and an aimed shot bonus.

the WI-LP3 pepperbox laser doesn't do pulse modes per se, but can fire from 1-4 shots (from 1-4 barrels) at a time.

apparently in splynn dimensional market there is a plasma pistol (called the "Kizh Plasma Pistol" in the GMG) that fires "quadra-blasts". if that means what i think it means, this thing would make an absolutely *terrifying* TW plasma-converted pistol. awful range, though.

the soviet S-500 "cyclone" pulse laser rifle can fire 1 or 4 pulses, and has excellent range (but terrible efficiency... this thing is just begging to be converted, if you can manage to get your hands on one). it's rather on the heavy side of things though...

the belofsky heavy laser cannon (another soviet weapon) has 4 barrels that fire at once, as does the G-410C goldbeam laser cannon. however, they are not called cannons for nothing, and are not exactly what i would consider to be good infantry weapons.

(special mention: the M-160 assault rifle is a triple-pulse ion weapon that should probably make flatline's list of good weapons to convert... *if* you can get your hands on one, since it's a new navy exclusive design).

(another honorable mention, *if* you can get it, is the ARP-1 plasma assault rifle from the megaversal legion. good luck with that one, though).

that's just from digging through the GMG. there may be others (for example, i could've swore archie had a gun with terrible damage per shot, but pulses 5 times... though of course, *getting* said weapon is not going to be easy).

[flatline]

Hm... pulse weapons...

That's actually a genius idea to make those damage stats serviceable.

Yet another reason why the L-20 was always the most popular beater in our party.

You usually see 3-pulse, occasionally a 2-pulse (can't recall where I saw the latter though... but I'm sure I remember it) but does anyone recall if there were any 4 pulse weapons out there?

The C-12 Heavy Assault Laser Rifle (GMG p121, also listed in RMB and RUE) has a burst of five, but for some reason only does twice the damage as a single shot. This has always been a mystery why most pulse lasers get 100% pulse damage efficiency (3 shots = 3x damage) but the C-12 only gets 40% pulse damage efficiency (5 shots = 2x damage).

Aside from standard bursting rules, of course. By default we're to assume ALL energy weapons are burst-capable using standard x2/x3/x7 rules per CB

I've never actually played with a group that allowed that, but perhaps my experience in that regard is atypical.

--flatline

[flatline]

the wilk's 567 apparently can do anywhere from 1-5 pulses. it also looks exceptionally efficient, i'm surprised this one hasn't caught flatline's attention for standard use (ie unmodified) as well. it also features a very nice range, and an aimed shot bonus.

I think the Wilk's 567 is an excellent candidate for TW conversion. 7PPE for 2 5 shot bursts (10d6 or 1d6x10) is extremely attractive.

However, it's a weapon that I hold a grudge against because the description is so stupid. What they should have said is that the weapon can hold a long e-clip and a short e-clip at the same time. The long e-clip provides 30 1d6 pulses and the short e-clip provides 20 1d6 pulses. That would be consistent with what we know of e-clips (long e-clips hold 150% of the energy of a short/standard e-clip) and of the weapon description ("a single blast does...a double pulse does...a triple pulse does...").

Instead, they write this garbage: "Payload: 50 shots for 1-3 dice damage blasts (two e-clips), or 25 4-5 dice pulse shots (two e-clips), reduce payload 25% without the short clip".

the WI-LP3 pepperbox laser doesn't do pulse modes per se, but can fire from 1-4 shots (from 1-4 barrels) at a time.

Yeah, this one had flown totally under my radar until Killer Cyborg pointed it out to me. 8d6 from a pocket pistol is mighty impressive if the GM doesn't rule that it's too small to hold 4 independent converted lasers.

apparently in splynn dimensional market there is a plasma pistol (called the "Kizh Plasma Pistol" in the GMG) that fires "quadra-blasts". if that means what i think it means, this thing would make an absolutely *terrifying* TW plasma-converted pistol. awful range, though.

I haven't seen that book yet, but it's on my list. Sounds like lots of interesting stuff is contained therein.

the soviet S-500 "cyclone" pulse laser rifle can fire 1 or 4 pulses, and has excellent range (but terrible efficiency... this thing is just begging to be converted, if you can manage to get your hands on one). it's rather on the heavy side of things though...

the belofsky heavy laser cannon (another soviet weapon) has 4 barrels that fire at once, as does the G-410C goldbeam laser cannon. however, they are not called cannons for nothing, and are not exactly what i would consider to be good infantry weapons.

I saw those in the GMG, but ignored them due to the weight. The S-500 description makes it sound like an e-clip provides 4 4-pulse blasts (140MD per e-clip on average) which is mediocre, but not terrible. However, I could see how someone might interpret its payload to be 4 2d6 shots or 1 4-pulse blast which would be pretty atrocious from an efficiency perspective.

Just for trivia's sake, here are other weapons that get an expected 140MD per standard e-clip (payload in parens):
C-12 Heavy Assault Laser Rifle (20)
AT-20 "Sharpshot" Police Special Laser Pistol (20)
C-10 Light Assault Laser Rifle (20)
G-21P Laser Pistol (20)
H-13 Ion Pulse Pistol (20)
JA-11 Juicer Assassin's Energy Rifle (10)
JA-12 Laser Rifle (10)
Lynx Laser Rifle (20)
NG-45LP "Long Pistol" (8)
NG-E12 Heavy Plasma Ejector (4)
TX-20 "Short" Laser Pistol (20)
TX-43 Light Assault Laser Rifle (20)

I do like the Russian double-barreled laser rifles (lynx rifle and s-20-20 pistol) even though they don't compare well to pulse weapons (x2 instead of x3). Since each laser could be converted separately, you'd have twice the payload, however.

(special mention: the M-160 assault rifle is a triple-pulse ion weapon that should probably make flatline's list of good weapons to convert... *if* you can get your hands on one, since it's a new navy exclusive design).

This is a strange beast. First off, the payload on a long e-clip should be 45 shots (150% of 30), not 55 as written, but that's easily corrected. The second thing to consider is that it's more efficient on a burst than with single shots. Single shots average 10.5MD, but a burst averages 35MD (instead of 31.5MD which is 3x the single shot damage). I assume that the author just rounded up to 1d6x10 thinking it was easier to roll than 9d6. But the real reason I would be reluctant to convert an M-160 to TW is because if converted, I only get 10 shots for 20PPE. If I don't convert it, I can use Sub-Particle Acceleration to recharge 30% of the clip (9 shots) for 20PPE which is almost as efficient but I still get to keep the 30 shot payload.

(another honorable mention, *if* you can get it, is the ARP-1 plasma assault rifle from the megaversal legion. good luck with that one, though).

I think I'd be reluctant to convert this one for the same reason as the M-160. Unconverted, it averages 14.5MD per shot or 45MD per burst and has a 30 shot payload (of course I don't know how the capacity of a ML e-clip compares to a standard e-clip for purposes of Sub-Particle Acceleration). Converted, the damage becomes 14MD single shot or 42MD (about the same), but only has a 5 shot payload. The payload reduction is too much to accept for me.

that's just from digging through the GMG. there may be others (for example, i could've swore archie had a gun with terrible damage per shot, but pulses 5 times... though of course, *getting* said weapon is not going to be easy).

Thanks for making a more exhaustive search of the GMG than I did. I was aware of some of these weapons, but not all. The ones that I purposefully skipped were skipped because of my own preferences which, admittedly, might not be representative.

--flatline

[Shark_Force]

i guess i can see how the wilk's 567 might be annoying from a consistency perspective.

on the other hand, it offers either 150d6 or 125d6 damage per short + long e-clip, which is pretty danged efficient. ludicrously so, in fact (525 or 437.5 damage per pair, if you use the more efficient high-damage settings). if you can ignore the questionable logic as to why this gun somehow manages to get only 1/3 as much out of a short e-clip as a long e-clip, you get a pretty respectable rifle with good range.

also, if you convert it to TW, you lose the screwiness of the weapon; it now acts like it bloody well should act. you fire 5 blasts, you pay 5 blasts worth of ammo. so your pet peeve may prevent you from using the regular thing, but there's no need to turn away from the TW version

edit: just realized the irony... to make the weapon consistent and logical, you have to turn it into a magic gun

[flatline]

i guess i can see how the wilk's 567 might be annoying from a consistency perspective.

on the other hand, it offers either 150d6 or 125d6 damage per short + long e-clip, which is pretty danged efficient. ludicrously so, in fact (525 or 437.5 damage per pair, if you use the more efficient high-damage settings). if you can ignore the questionable logic as to why this gun somehow manages to get only 1/3 as much out of a short e-clip as a long e-clip, you get a pretty respectable rifle with good range.

also, if you convert it to TW, you lose the screwiness of the weapon; it now acts like it bloody well should act. you fire 5 blasts, you pay 5 blasts worth of ammo. so your pet peeve may prevent you from using the regular thing, but there's no need to turn away from the TW version

edit: just realized the irony... to make the weapon consistent and logical, you have to turn it into a magic gun

--flatline

[Tor]

Anyone recall which books/pages have the Wilks 567? I probably saw it and overlooked it.

The WI-LP3 pepperbox laser sounds familiar... I think maybe I saw it in Mercs?

The C-12 Heavy Assault Laser Rifle (GMG p121, also listed in RMB and RUE) has a burst of five, but for some reason only does twice the damage as a single shot.

Double the damage of 1 shot is standard for short bursts.

This has always been a mystery why most pulse lasers get 100% pulse damage efficiency (3 shots = 3x damage) but the C-12 only gets 40% pulse damage efficiency (5 shots = 2x damage).

Pulse weapons are designed for short bursts and are more stable during them, so shots don't go wide and miss, it's a narrower volley.

[Shark_Force]

Anyone recall which books/pages have the Wilks 567? I probably saw it and overlooked it.

The WI-LP3 pepperbox laser sounds familiar... I think maybe I saw it in Mercs?

The C-12 Heavy Assault Laser Rifle (GMG p121, also listed in RMB and RUE) has a burst of five, but for some reason only does twice the damage as a single shot.

Double the damage of 1 shot is standard for short bursts.

This has always been a mystery why most pulse lasers get 100% pulse damage efficiency (3 shots = 3x damage) but the C-12 only gets 40% pulse damage efficiency (5 shots = 2x damage).

Pulse weapons are designed for short bursts and are more stable during them, so shots don't go wide and miss, it's a narrower volley.

double for a short burst may be standard, and pulse weapons may fire faster than usual, but the thing is...

a laser weapon really shouldn't have any appreciable recoil to cause some of the shots to miss. if the first one is on target, and your three-round (or five-round) burst is taking less than a second to exit the barrel, it's a bit silly to have over half of the shots miss. especially against a larger target like a tank at close range

[Tor]

Ah but here's the thing.... you know how laser weapons SHOULD be silent, but manufacturers build in sounds to make them cool?

They clearly must also build in that recoil.

Or perhaps, less silly, the generation of an energy pulse causes subtle vibrations in the gun somehow, which unsteadies the aim. Don't ask me why.

[Shark_Force]

oh, i try not to think about that sort of thing myself. inconsistent guns are the least of the logic problems in this game

[flatline]

oh, i try not to think about that sort of thing myself. inconsistent guns are the least of the logic problems in this game

I think it's a fun exercise. Sometimes the issues aren't worth fixing due to the upheaval required, but other times, a small correction can go a long way towards improving things. Even if I don't try to address them, there is value in understanding how things might work and realizing when the setting and mechanics are inconsistent with each other (or with logic).

--flatline

[Shark_Force]

i try to avoid thinking too much about stuff when the logical conclusion i would come to is that someone's armour should be mostly intact, but the person inside should have been liquified

[Tor]

Interesting to note that, far as I know, TW weapons from Stormspire don't suffer the 'bursts are wild' penalties for those without WPs due to the lack of recoil.

Whatever recoil various ammo types in standard tech weapons have, there might be ways to negate that and make bursts get aimed shot bonuses due to the lack of kick.

Off hand I can't think of a spell for doing it, but it should be doable.

[Shark_Force]

the megaversal legion has gets that bonus from purely technological weapons, too

[Tor]

Found a prime candidate for TW laser conversion.

Underseas Pg 82, the Forward Blue-Green Laser Turret. Normally merely 1d6, , so TW conversion would double its effectiveness. Can shoot 7 times simultaneously. On the downside, you lose your unlimited payload from tying it to the nuclear reactor. On the plus side, I think all dolphins are psychic, and since they swim so well around ley lines they will probably be near a good fuel source for the weapon and defending that prime real estate.

Why are we hooking up dolphins to nuclear reactors?

[green.nova343]

I think what might be getting lost somewhat is that, despite the description in RMB, a TW-converted energy weapon is not, actually, just a conversion of the "power system". Techno-wizardy either adds new capabilities to existing devices (i.e. adding Armor of Ithan or Invisibility to an EBA suit), or it converts the technological device so that it runs off of P.P.E./I.S.P. instead of its usual power source (kinetic, chemical, electrical, nuclear, etc.). There are 2 key things to remember about energy weapons:

[list=][*]They run off of stored electrical power. Per CB1, a single E-clip stores as much electrical energy as 1,000 car batteries. In essence, it's the super-high-tech futuristic version of the lithium-ion batteries we use for laptops & smartphones nowadays.
[*]The weapon converts the electrical energy into an energy blast, but it doesn't care where the energy comes from in the first place. This is illustrated by the standardization of E-clips, where E-clips from the same manufacturer can usually be used in other weapons in their inventory.[/list]

Case in point: Triax's TX-22 Precision Laser Pistol, TX-24 Ion Pulse Pistol, TX-26 Particle Beam Pistol, TX-11 Sniper Laser Rifle, TX-30 Ion Pulse Rifle, TX-42 Laser Pulse Rifle, and TX-45 Particle Beam Rifle. These 7 weapons represent 3 distinct types of energy beam types (3 laser, 2 ion beam, and 2 particle beam). However, while their individual payloads per FSE-clip differ (because of the amount of energy they have to draw upon in order to generate the energy beam), the FSE-clips themselves are identical. Shoot 10 shots with a TX-45 (50% of its payload), & you can still transfer the FSE-clip to a TX-42 (leaving you with 20 shots before it runs dry).

This means that, if the TW conversion of energy weapons was solely based on the conversion of the E-clip & its port to store P.P.E. & convert it back to electrical energy, then you'd only need to adapt the RMB conversion of the car battery; you'd only need Globe of Daylight (2 P.P.E.) for the spell chain, with standard/short E-clips needing to be a 3rd level item & long/FSE-clips needing to be a 5th-level item (RMB conversion of a car battery lets it last for 1 year on a single charge, but standard car batteries last for 3-5 years before needing replaced). The rest of the weapon's function (damage, range, etc.) would be unchanged, with perhaps the only caveat that payload gets increased near ley lines & nexii. More importantly, however, as I pointed out, a p-beam rifle doesn't care if its E-clip was bought brand-new with the rifle, or if it was used for 3 years in a laser rifle before it was plugged in; it's just converting the stored energy when it fires off a blast, but the conversion happens inside the weapon itself, not inside the E-clip.

So...why do the conversions differ? It's only an opinion, but I suspect that the TW conversion doesn't just convert the E-clip to store P.P.E., but the actual beam generation assembly itself is replaced as part of the conversion. Since TWs need to use analogues to the original technological item, this is why a TW Laser weapon requires Globe of Daylight, but a TW Ion weapon requires Call LIghtning...or that, until WB16 came out with Sub-Particle Acceleration, you didn't have actual TW P-Beam weapons (just TW Lightning Blasters). And that is why there's also the difference in the recharge cost: the recharge isn't just providing a payload for the weapon, it's also "energizing" the beam generation assembly so that it will work. As for the lower payloads on ion and p-beam weapons... well, the non-TW versions also have lower payloads (see the TX-45/TX-42 example above).

Of course, I'm sure a lot of people will probably disagree with this...

[Nightmask]

I think what might be getting lost somewhat is that, despite the description in RMB, a TW-converted energy weapon is not, actually, just a conversion of the "power system". Techno-wizardy either adds new capabilities to existing devices (i.e. adding Armor of Ithan or Invisibility to an EBA suit), or it converts the technological device so that it runs off of P.P.E./I.S.P. instead of its usual power source (kinetic, chemical, electrical, nuclear, etc.). There are 2 key things to remember about energy weapons:

[list=][*]They run off of stored electrical power. Per CB1, a single E-clip stores as much electrical energy as 1,000 car batteries. In essence, it's the super-high-tech futuristic version of the lithium-ion batteries we use for laptops & smartphones nowadays.
[*]The weapon converts the electrical energy into an energy blast, but it doesn't care where the energy comes from in the first place. This is illustrated by the standardization of E-clips, where E-clips from the same manufacturer can usually be used in other weapons in their inventory.[/list]

Case in point: Triax's TX-22 Precision Laser Pistol, TX-24 Ion Pulse Pistol, TX-26 Particle Beam Pistol, TX-11 Sniper Laser Rifle, TX-30 Ion Pulse Rifle, TX-42 Laser Pulse Rifle, and TX-45 Particle Beam Rifle. These 7 weapons represent 3 distinct types of energy beam types (3 laser, 2 ion beam, and 2 particle beam). However, while their individual payloads per FSE-clip differ (because of the amount of energy they have to draw upon in order to generate the energy beam), the FSE-clips themselves are identical. Shoot 10 shots with a TX-45 (50% of its payload), & you can still transfer the FSE-clip to a TX-42 (leaving you with 20 shots before it runs dry).

This means that, if the TW conversion of energy weapons was solely based on the conversion of the E-clip & its port to store P.P.E. & convert it back to electrical energy, then you'd only need to adapt the RMB conversion of the car battery; you'd only need Globe of Daylight (2 P.P.E.) for the spell chain, with standard/short E-clips needing to be a 3rd level item & long/FSE-clips needing to be a 5th-level item (RMB conversion of a car battery lets it last for 1 year on a single charge, but standard car batteries last for 3-5 years before needing replaced). The rest of the weapon's function (damage, range, etc.) would be unchanged, with perhaps the only caveat that payload gets increased near ley lines & nexii. More importantly, however, as I pointed out, a p-beam rifle doesn't care if its E-clip was bought brand-new with the rifle, or if it was used for 3 years in a laser rifle before it was plugged in; it's just converting the stored energy when it fires off a blast, but the conversion happens inside the weapon itself, not inside the E-clip.

So...why do the conversions differ? It's only an opinion, but I suspect that the TW conversion doesn't just convert the E-clip to store P.P.E., but the actual beam generation assembly itself is replaced as part of the conversion. Since TWs need to use analogues to the original technological item, this is why a TW Laser weapon requires Globe of Daylight, but a TW Ion weapon requires Call LIghtning...or that, until WB16 came out with Sub-Particle Acceleration, you didn't have actual TW P-Beam weapons (just TW Lightning Blasters). And that is why there's also the difference in the recharge cost: the recharge isn't just providing a payload for the weapon, it's also "energizing" the beam generation assembly so that it will work. As for the lower payloads on ion and p-beam weapons... well, the non-TW versions also have lower payloads (see the TX-45/TX-42 example above).

Of course, I'm sure a lot of people will probably disagree with this...

Given the RMB had the weapons all developing identical stats for things like range and damage in spite of saying that nothing was changed but the e-clip to make it a PPE-powered device it would seem self-evident that you're changing more than just the e-clip housing area but changing the actual weapon to the point it's no longer the original weapon but a generic TW weapon of the given type. Unlike the Gizmoteer, their conversions do what the TW conversions don't, only changing the power source nothing else.

[Tor]

RMB only has consistent damage for TW weapons, range was dependent on original design, making it more advantageous to convert longer-range lower-damage weapons.

[green.nova343]

RMB only has consistent damage for TW weapons, range was dependent on original design, making it more advantageous to convert longer-range lower-damage weapons.

And which is why, in the workup I'm doing on bringing those conversions back RUE-style, the level of the item will have a greater effect on the weapon. You want more damage? It can't be a 1st-level item. You want more than a basic 5-10 shot payload? Increase the item level.

I'm also considering making a cap for them based on the original item: no converting a dinky 1D6 M.D. WIlk's laser rifle into a death-dealing 1D4x10 M.D. per shot monstrosity. Kind of the way that a TK-Machinegun built from the old "Ma Deuce" should have more punch than a TK-Machinegun built from an M249 SAW: it's a heavier, more robust weapon, so you should be able to convert it to a more powerful weapon (provided you're experienced enough to do so).