Chi users in RIFTS?

[eliakon]

Looking for this symbol: ≠ ?

Sorry, both the N&S text and the HU2 text say that AM's are DMAs's.

Considered to be is not the same as Is the same.
A DMA does not get access to the AM powers, nor do they have the same skills, nor do they share XP tables.
In theory yes, an AM was probably a DMA back in the day....but he is now an AM.

None of which really matters in Rifts much, but meh

(and yes that is what =/= is, for those of us that don't play around with funky character sets)

Sorry, not "in theory"..... both the N&S text and the HU2 text say that AM's are DMAs's. If you do not believe me the Take out your books an look it up before acquiring 'foot in mouth', again.

Sorry, this whole topic is about Chi Users so saying "Sorry this is rifts" does not mean anything cause the topic is about things in the N&S and MC books.

1) N&SS pg 164 "is changed in the following ways Considered to be a Dedicated Martial Artist
I would, personally, feel that 'considered to be' is different than 'is a'

2)HUr, and HU2 don't say anything about it.

so not only do I not have 'foot in mouth' (which is insulting btw) I was correct. Now if you care to provide a book/page reference that says that they ARE the same I would be interested in seeing it (not that they are close, not that they are considered equal, that they ARE the same.)

the two classes are different.
A DMA does not get Feign Death, The Cleansing Spirit, etc
An AM does not get the ability to recognize martial artists.
They are DIFFERENT CLASSES. Also note that the conversion notes in N&SS are for the HUr Ancient Master, not the HU2 one. But that's a discussion for the HU forum. And for being rifts, I am saying that the "is an HU Ancient Master a DMA or not" has nothing to do with "What does Chi do to Rifts"

[drewkitty ~..~]

I was only showing that DMA could learn more MAF with the mentioning of the HU integration text in N&Sr.

HU2 the text about it is in the AM section at the end of the sections under the heading "Five: Other Stuff", where it says the AM can be made (optionally) as a DMA from N&S.

[eliakon]

I was only showing that DMA could learn more MAF with the mentioning of the HU integration text in N&Sr.

HU2 the text about it is in the AM section at the end of the sections under the heading "Five: Other Stuff", where it says the AM can be made (optionally) as a DMA from N&S.

The DMA still isn't learning more arts. The AM is learning more arts, but it is still an AM.

the Other Stuff is "instead of making an Ancient Master..." so once again its not that the AM is a DMA its that you can REPLACE THE AM WITH A DMA. This is Not The Same.

the N&SS conversion is just that, a conversion, the notes are about CHANGING the AM into something for N&SS The AM as written is not a DMA, the modified version (change all the skills, the combat abilities, the....) is considered to be one.....that's a HUGE difference. The Vanilla AM is not a DMA, the CONVERTED AM is a kind of DMA.

So yes, you can start with 1 MAF, 2 MAF or 3 MAF. But what ever you have when you pick your class is all you get, you don't EVER get more MAF for any canon class.

[Nightmask]

There's a good amount of hair-splitting going on it seems. The Ancient Master is a version of Dedicated Martial Artist, they've basically trained and blended Martial Arts into a single style in ways the Ninjas and Superspies version doesn't/can't. This means ending up with different expressions of that training, much like the Physical Training character in many ways is also a dedicated Martial Artist (even if the Ancient Master looks down on the Physical Training sort as 'talented strongmen'). Both are dedicated but in different ways.

[Tor]

There is no Text in Any Rifts Book that details anything about Chi Users (excepting the RCB1&RCB1r). Rifts Books only Detail classes that are PPE users and ISP users.

You forgot Mercenaries.

Chi use in rifts does not work without reworking everything about it and giving chi scores to everything.

Untrue, chi doesn't need to be reworked for it to be used in Rifts. The chi scores of most things are also pretty much negligible unless they happen to be under attack by someone with negative chi or trying to use a chi power themself.

Is saying 'does not work' your way of saying 'negative chi is scary, they will mess people up' or something? Well, there's a lot of scary guys in Rifts, one more class won't hurt. Especially with that PF note about mind block being the ultimate defense against it, since lots of beings have that and can interfere with the chi plots.

chi has to reworked into every class and combination... otherwise you end up with a mess.

No, it doesn't. Please support this argument.

See Rifter 3 for the first attempt at including chi in Rifts.

Rifter 3 sucked. It just slapped MDC on immortals for no plausible reason because 'woot everything must be MDC'. One of those cases where I'm glad for the 'not canon' disclaimer.

who, if anyone should get more chi

There are guidelines for determining this for PF/HU characters, they are easily extrapolated to other classes. If you double a mind mage's you would double a mind melter's for example, is an easy call.

what things are negative chi and what things are positive chi

Everything alive is positive unless otherwise indicated, such as Mystic China did for the undead and demons. One can easily extrapolate that it would apply to deevils and alien intelligences. Maybe even Silhouette. This is not 'reworking' chi, it is just filling in blanks.

how does magic/psionics/superpowers/etc interact with chi

N&SS already has explanations about this in the back.

who can/can not have chi abilities

Anyone who can learn a martial art form can learn them, obviously.

how wide spread is the knowledge of chi

As wide-spread as the martial arts that teach them. This isn't 'reworking' a system. Not every OCC out there gives exact numbers for how widespread the class is.

its possible to put into a game. But it will have profound consequences to do so

So does putting in a changeling or a dragon.

will require changing certain basic assumptions of one of the game lines.

What will it require changing?

[SolCannibal]

Overall it looks like staying away of the MDc has spared me A LOT of headaches actually...

[drewkitty ~..~]

There is no Text in Any Rifts Book that details anything about Chi Users (excepting the RCB1&RCB1r). Rifts Books only Detail classes that are PPE users and ISP users.

You forgot Mercenaries.

Which details one power for a NPC write up at that NPC's level.

[Tor]

All the characters in books are NPCs, I don't really see the issue here. Yeah, one power, he's a ninja not a chi master. He's still got chi and he can still use it.

[drewkitty ~..~]

All the characters in books are NPCs, I don't really see the issue here. Yeah, one power, he's a ninja not a chi master. He's still got chi and he can still use it.

And I was just stating what you should of stated when you pointed out the text in mercs.
*shrugs* nothing to get hot under the collar for.

[Rimmerdal]

Sure, Chi still would work..But who could or would teach the skill? unless you convince Ninja Boy in mercs (not likely) or find some other Chi master your Rifts out of luck. Lets say for sake of debate though you did find "Chi Master Bob" and he did agree to teach his art.

Now Bob would be with out dragon lines (But apparently Ley lines to a degree work Need to double check that one) and not many other Chi-masters to test that ability on. (Remember Bob knows 121 ways to kill you..he only taught you 120...just in case he needs to kill you. )

In short Chi is just rare even if your GM's allow it.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Sure, Chi still would work..But who could or would teach the skill? unless you convince Ninja Boy in mercs (not likely) or find some other Chi master your Rifts out of luck. Lets say for sake of debate though you did find "Chi Master Bob" and he did agree to teach his art.

Now Bob would be with out dragon lines (But apparently Ley lines to a degree work Need to double check that one) and not many other Chi-masters to test that ability on. (Remember Bob knows 121 ways to kill you..he only taught you 120...just in case he needs to kill you. )

In short Chi is just rare even if your GM's allow it.

I do believe this is discussed in the RCB1's for rifts earth natives. Most, 99.99%, setting native Martial artists will be ether PPE Users (Rifts Japan) or ISP users (Rifts China)

Nearly all of the time Chi Users in the rifts setting are chars that have been rifted to the setting.

[Nightmask]

Sure, Chi still would work..But who could or would teach the skill? unless you convince Ninja Boy in mercs (not likely) or find some other Chi master your Rifts out of luck. Lets say for sake of debate though you did find "Chi Master Bob" and he did agree to teach his art.

Now Bob would be with out dragon lines (But apparently Ley lines to a degree work Need to double check that one) and not many other Chi-masters to test that ability on. (Remember Bob knows 121 ways to kill you..he only taught you 120...just in case he needs to kill you. )

In short Chi is just rare even if your GM's allow it.

Chi users don't make use of Dragon Lines/Ley Lines anyway, Mystic China makes it quite clear that you can't find any Ley Lines in the mystic settings like Japan and China because they're drained to non-detectibility even during celestial event by the Dragons. Which doesn't really matter anyway as Chi is everywhere and not that hard to tap from the environment generally and the best people to use Chi abilities on are those who can't counter you anyway, which is most people.

[Rimmerdal]

Sure, Chi still would work..But who could or would teach the skill? unless you convince Ninja Boy in mercs (not likely) or find some other Chi master your Rifts out of luck. Lets say for sake of debate though you did find "Chi Master Bob" and he did agree to teach his art.

Now Bob would be with out dragon lines (But apparently Ley lines to a degree work Need to double check that one) and not many other Chi-masters to test that ability on. (Remember Bob knows 121 ways to kill you..he only taught you 120...just in case he needs to kill you. )

In short Chi is just rare even if your GM's allow it.

I do believe this is discussed in the RCB1's for rifts earth natives. Most, 99.99%, setting native Martial artists will be ether PPE Users (Rifts Japan) or ISP users (Rifts China)

Nearly all of the time Chi Users in the rifts setting are chars that have been rifted to the setting.

I would work on that premise too. the only situation I could see a true Chi user is if two people from N&SS that were rifted in got together and had kids. then technically the lucky fetus is born of parents from another reality where Chi was. ant that is one very lucky little fetus.

[SolCannibal]

Sure, Chi still would work..But who could or would teach the skill? unless you convince Ninja Boy in mercs (not likely) or find some other Chi master your Rifts out of luck. Lets say for sake of debate though you did find "Chi Master Bob" and he did agree to teach his art.

Now Bob would be with out dragon lines (But apparently Ley lines to a degree work Need to double check that one) and not many other Chi-masters to test that ability on. (Remember Bob knows 121 ways to kill you..he only taught you 120...just in case he needs to kill you. )

In short Chi is just rare even if your GM's allow it.

I do believe this is discussed in the RCB1's for rifts earth natives. Most, 99.99%, setting native Martial artists will be ether PPE Users (Rifts Japan) or ISP users (Rifts China)

Nearly all of the time Chi Users in the rifts setting are chars that have been rifted to the setting.

I would work on that premise too. the only situation I could see a true Chi user is if two people from N&SS that were rifted in got together and had kids. then technically the lucky fetus is born of parents from another reality where Chi was. ant that is one very lucky little fetus.

I would disagree a little in that manipulating chi is not, in N&SS or any other Palladium setting that i know of, some kind of inborn mutation, but a matter of cultural background and training. People from Rifts Earth should be able to learn such techinques if taught by a native from N&SS Earth.

That said teaching takes time, making a dojo prosper can take time and not every accidental dropout of that parallel earth (or similar ones - Mystic China could be interpreted as a wuxia world all its own instead of N&SS modern/cold war setting easily enough, among other things) would care to stay in the hell on earth that is Rifts Earth for the sake of taking pupils. Those factors should contribute to such "second generation chi users" being pretty uncommon, if not rarer than the ones native from N&SS (except when one has a regionalized/in game reason for those being more frequent in one's campaign, but that is sort of a given).

As an aside, culture & knowledge change with time and martial arts may evolve/mutate too based in local cultural/political circunstances. Who knows, maybe a few (if not all) of the PPE and ISP as chi martial techniques from Rifts Japan & China are memetic mutations of N&SS or MC chi use techniques.

just two bits of thought.

[Nightmask]

most older gms use the rifter 3 conversions or do the new ISP is chi route or the PPE is chi route that the newer books use.
In any case, IN ALL cases, Leylines do affect chi.
it's just it's A CRAPLOAD of chi.

That's not a canon rule, nothing in the actual Mystic China book nor the Conversion book says anything about Ley Lines affecting chi or providing it and that 'Chi isn't really Chi it's ISP or PPE' route obviously isn't chi because ISP and PPE are only positive they don't have a negative counterpart but Chi does so those characters using ISP or PPE aren't Chi users they're either ISP users or PPE users.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I do believe this is discussed in the RCB1's for rifts earth natives. Most, 99.99%, setting native Martial artists will be ether PPE Users (Rifts Japan) or ISP users (Rifts China)

Nearly all of the time Chi Users in the rifts setting are chars that have been rifted to the setting.

I would work on that premise too. the only situation I could see a true Chi user is if two people from N&SS that were rifted in got together and had kids. then technically the lucky fetus is born of parents from another reality where Chi was. ant that is one very lucky little fetus.

Nope that is not what I meant.
The MA's in Rifts are only trained to tap their PPE or ISP. That is why so few of them use their Chi for their MA powers.
The Chi using chars from other settings would already be trained in the use of Chi for fueling their MA powers.

It is the oddball that has found and convinced "Master Bob" (more like Master Roshi) to train him/her in how to use Chi and Chi powers.

The part you are forgetting is the All Chars Have a Chi Stat. Even if the stat is not detailed in most of the game books.

[eliakon]

I do believe this is discussed in the RCB1's for rifts earth natives. Most, 99.99%, setting native Martial artists will be ether PPE Users (Rifts Japan) or ISP users (Rifts China)

Nearly all of the time Chi Users in the rifts setting are chars that have been rifted to the setting.

I would work on that premise too. the only situation I could see a true Chi user is if two people from N&SS that were rifted in got together and had kids. then technically the lucky fetus is born of parents from another reality where Chi was. ant that is one very lucky little fetus.

Nope that is not what I meant.
The MA's in Rifts are only trained to tap their PPE or ISP. That is why so few of them use their Chi for their MA powers.
The Chi using chars from other settings would already be trained in the use of Chi for fueling their MA powers.

It is the oddball that has found and convinced "Master Bob" (more like Master Roshi) to train him/her in how to use Chi and Chi powers.

The part you are forgetting is the All Chars Have a Chi Stat. Even if the stat is not detailed in most of the game books.

Well if the game chooses to incorporate the N&SS material they do.
As you often point out its only the 'rifters' that say that all the books are relevant.
So unless a given GM chooses to explicitly add Chi to their Rifts game, its not present (the one NPC not withstanding)

[SolCannibal]

I do believe this is discussed in the RCB1's for rifts earth natives. Most, 99.99%, setting native Martial artists will be ether PPE Users (Rifts Japan) or ISP users (Rifts China)

Nearly all of the time Chi Users in the rifts setting are chars that have been rifted to the setting.

I would work on that premise too. the only situation I could see a true Chi user is if two people from N&SS that were rifted in got together and had kids. then technically the lucky fetus is born of parents from another reality where Chi was. ant that is one very lucky little fetus.

Nope that is not what I meant.
The MA's in Rifts are only trained to tap their PPE or ISP. That is why so few of them use their Chi for their MA powers.
The Chi using chars from other settings would already be trained in the use of Chi for fueling their MA powers.

It is the oddball that has found and convinced "Master Bob" (more like Master Roshi) to train him/her in how to use Chi and Chi powers.

The part you are forgetting is the All Chars Have a Chi Stat. Even if the stat is not detailed in most of the game books.

Well if the game chooses to incorporate the N&SS material they do.
As you often point out its only the 'rifters' that say that all the books are relevant.
So unless a given GM chooses to explicitly add Chi to their Rifts game, its not present (the one NPC not withstanding)

Not adding it would make that one NPC (whoever he might be) contradictory - if he's the only being with chi around, how would he replenish any spent reserves and still use his techniques on Rifts Earth?

[eliakon]

I do believe this is discussed in the RCB1's for rifts earth natives. Most, 99.99%, setting native Martial artists will be ether PPE Users (Rifts Japan) or ISP users (Rifts China)

Nearly all of the time Chi Users in the rifts setting are chars that have been rifted to the setting.

I would work on that premise too. the only situation I could see a true Chi user is if two people from N&SS that were rifted in got together and had kids. then technically the lucky fetus is born of parents from another reality where Chi was. ant that is one very lucky little fetus.

Nope that is not what I meant.
The MA's in Rifts are only trained to tap their PPE or ISP. That is why so few of them use their Chi for their MA powers.
The Chi using chars from other settings would already be trained in the use of Chi for fueling their MA powers.

It is the oddball that has found and convinced "Master Bob" (more like Master Roshi) to train him/her in how to use Chi and Chi powers.

The part you are forgetting is the All Chars Have a Chi Stat. Even if the stat is not detailed in most of the game books.

Well if the game chooses to incorporate the N&SS material they do.
As you often point out its only the 'rifters' that say that all the books are relevant.
So unless a given GM chooses to explicitly add Chi to their Rifts game, its not present (the one NPC not withstanding)

Not adding it would make that one NPC (whoever he might be) contradictory - if he's the only being with chi around, how would he replenish any spent reserves and still use his techniques on Rifts Earth?

Just have him use the patented 'mysterious NPC powers' and use his powers more or less as written. It just makes him stealthy after all, or you could just convert him to one of the options. In the end it doesn't matter....He's an NPC so 9 times out of 10 it doesn't really MATTER how his abilities work.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I do believe this is discussed in the RCB1's for rifts earth natives. Most, 99.99%, setting native Martial artists will be ether PPE Users (Rifts Japan) or ISP users (Rifts China)

Nearly all of the time Chi Users in the rifts setting are chars that have been rifted to the setting.

I would work on that premise too. the only situation I could see a true Chi user is if two people from N&SS that were rifted in got together and had kids. then technically the lucky fetus is born of parents from another reality where Chi was. ant that is one very lucky little fetus.

Nope that is not what I meant.
The MA's in Rifts are only trained to tap their PPE or ISP. That is why so few of them use their Chi for their MA powers.
The Chi using chars from other settings would already be trained in the use of Chi for fueling their MA powers.

It is the oddball that has found and convinced "Master Bob" (more like Master Roshi) to train him/her in how to use Chi and Chi powers.

The part you are forgetting is the All Chars Have a Chi Stat. Even if the stat is not detailed in most of the game books.

Well if the game chooses to incorporate the N&SS material they do.
As you often point out its only the 'rifters' that say that all the books are relevant.
So unless a given GM chooses to explicitly add Chi to their Rifts game, its not present (the one NPC not withstanding)

Not adding it would make that one NPC (whoever he might be) contradictory - if he's the only being with chi around, how would he replenish any spent reserves and still use his techniques on Rifts Earth?

Other people dont need to have Chi for you to recover yours; regardless, NPCs ignore the rules as they choose. They dont have to obey the rules the way PCs do. How his powers work is largely irrelevant, as he is an NPC.

[drewkitty ~..~]

As you often point out its only the 'rifters' that say that all the books are relevant.

Nope.
They, Rifters, say that the only canon books for rifts are rifts books.

What I say right back at them is to say if that is true then only books of a specific setting are the canon for that specific setting, when they try to make it as if rifts canon applies across the board, does not apply to the other settings.

[Nightmask]

Well if the game chooses to incorporate the N&SS material they do.
As you often point out its only the 'rifters' that say that all the books are relevant.
So unless a given GM chooses to explicitly add Chi to their Rifts game, its not present (the one NPC not withstanding)

Not adding it would make that one NPC (whoever he might be) contradictory - if he's the only being with chi around, how would he replenish any spent reserves and still use his techniques on Rifts Earth?

Everything has chi even if it's not listed, and chi naturally regenerates as long as you're healthy and not in a negative chi environment. All you need is a good night's sleep to recover any spent Chi. That NPC doesn't have many techniques that expend Chi anyway.

[Nightmask]

Actually. You are wrong. In the Ultimate Edition, Chi is now officially ISP. except it costs more then 1 chi to activate the powers.
and in Japan's case, they channeled their energy with PPE. Rifts conversion book Revised does away with chi entirely.

Well now I can't be wrong because Chi isn't ISP. Chi is Chi. Everything has Chi including rocks and it comes in positive and negative versions, ISP is only positive and not a natural part of the environment. Declaring that 'officially' Chi is really ISP is no more worth bothering with than a declaration that apples are 'officially' pen knifes now.

[Nightmask]

Sorry, but that's the way it's been retconned. It's no longer applicable in ultimate edition.

Yeah like I said, no 'no really Chi is ISP now' is ever going to qualify as a valid statement because Chi isn't ISP it's Chi.

[eliakon]

Sorry, but that's the way it's been retconned. It's no longer applicable in ultimate edition.

Errr, can you point out where this is said?
I know the second Rifts China has stuff about 'chi' and ISP Just as Japan went on about it being PPE
But is there anything, anywhere, that explicitly says N&SS Chi is converted to ISP? Ie, not just using 'chi' as 'eastern philosophy chi' but as in 'actual palladium mechanic chi'

[drewkitty ~..~]

Sorry, but that's the way it's been retconned. It's no longer applicable in ultimate edition.

site book page paragraph for this.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Rifts Conversion book revised. it even has the ISP costs for various chi powers. However, it also says that this is only applicable for rifts.

So what you are referencing is the "How to Convert Chi powers into specialized Psi powers" section of the RCB1r that is right after the section about the section about "What changes to Chi Power effects because they are used in a MDC setting" section? *rhetorical*

[drewkitty ~..~]

It's also in the Rifts china 2 book explaining why Eric decided ISP now accesses chi powers and not chi.

Which is why I stated earlier that the Martial Artists in Rifts China are ISP users. As such are not a part of a discussion about Chi users.

There is also the part of the Rifts China books that state that everything in them is different from the rest of the canon covering the rest of the Rifts setting. Which means any and all rules in the RC books can not be used as a basis to make rules about the setting as a whole, nor for the megaverse as a whole.

[Tor]

was just stating what you should of stated when you pointed out the text in mercs.

What else could I have meant besides there being a chi-user there? =/

Sure, Chi still would work..But who could or would teach the skill? unless you convince Ninja Boy in mercs (not likely) or find some other Chi master your Rifts out of luck.

You don't need to learn from a chi master to learn to use chi, you only need to learn the martial art itself. A student is not obligated to only select martial art abilities their teacher knew.

N&SSp165 while opening with a dismissive "we'd have to say no" quickly clarifies "most knowledge was obliterated" and "most of the martial arts .. lost secrets" and finally "exceptions might include". Jujutsu/TKD are physical, but Aikido/Taichi can teach chi, so there you go, chi in Rifts, not to mention automatic body flips and Push Open Hand (great if you're guarding the deck of an airship or top of a skyscraper).

I do believe this is discussed in the RCB1's for rifts earth natives. Most, 99.99%, setting native Martial artists will be ether PPE Users (Rifts Japan) or ISP users (Rifts China)

Only if we accept that Aikido only survived in Japan and Taichi only survived in China, which I think is a bit silly.

Even if all the practitioners of these arts in the west died, there would've been instructional DVDs unearthed by Rogue Scholars enough to reconstruct the arts.

The MA's in Rifts are only trained to tap their PPE or ISP.

Not necessarily true, those are just the new OCCs from the China/Japan books. They only represent some of the martial arts that exist. N&SS implies 4 arts could have survived and be practised in their normal N&SS way. They need not come from another dimension to have chi or use it, according to that. You don't even need a chi teacher, someone could teach you an art that has learning chi as an option (and yet know no chi powers themselves) and you could still develope chi powers from that art.

unless a given GM chooses to explicitly add Chi to their Rifts game, its not present (the one NPC not withstanding)

You could say the same of magic and psionics and Glitter Boys, point? GMs are not obligated to include anything. That does not mean it's not present in the setting, just not present in their campaign.

In the Ultimate Edition, Chi is now officially ISP. except it costs more then 1 chi to activate the powers.

Could you review where in RUE it discusses chi? Or are we discussing CB1revised and how psionics may now emulate chi? If the latter, that in no way changed chi to ISP, it merely introduced the option of emulating chi powers with psionics.

A power being present in 1 form does not negate its presence in another. We have a spell and psionic version of astral projection and see magic. This is merely another case of a psi-power existing which produces the same effects of another kind of power. Read close the text of CB1revised.

They, Rifters, say that the only canon books for rifts are rifts books.

Rifters also say that unless explicitly indicated otherwise, Rifter content is not official. It requires an explicit KS endorsement as official canon for it to count. To which Rifter section do you refer so I may check on its credentials in the foreword? As Drew has hinted in a helpful PM that I misunderstood him based on my reply, upon second reading it occurs to me that the comment makes more sense if he is talking about people who play Rifts, and not the magazine. This troper proposes the alternate term 'Rifteer' (it sounds like Gizmoteer or Rocketeer, it's cool, Techno-Wizards would prefer it) to avoid such confusion in future.

chi naturally regenerates as long as you're healthy and not in a negative chi environment.

Pretty sure you still regenerate chi in negative chi environments too. It just prevents you from using the chi mastery power that lets you regen at a super-high rate. But you can still meditate/sleep to get it back.

Sorry, but that's the way it's been retconned. It's no longer applicable in ultimate edition.

Page number?

I know the second Rifts China has stuff about 'chi' and ISP Just as Japan went on about it being PPE

In both cases, and in the CB1revised psi-powers, it is merely people CALLING these things chi, and emulating chi powers. But they are not truly chi or chi powers.

Rifts Conversion book revised. it even has the isp costs for various chi powers. However, it also says that this is only applicable for rifts.

we're aware of CB1r, and believe you are reading it wrong.

It's also in the Rifts china 2 book explaining why Eric decided ISP now accesses chi powers and not chi.

Incorrect, Eric published ways to emulate chi powers using ISP in Rifts, which the people using it CALL chi. It's not powered by actual chi though. Chi and ISP are explicitly different things. This is very clear in Mystic China, where 1 demon has BOTH.

I've no doubt that characters in Rifts Japan and Rifts China honestly THINK they are using chi. It would be bad roleplaying if they DIDN'T call themselves chi-users. But they're deluded. They're using something else and copying the real thing.

:note: edited to correct response to Drew

[Rimmerdal]

I do believe this is discussed in the RCB1's for rifts earth natives. Most, 99.99%, setting native Martial artists will be ether PPE Users (Rifts Japan) or ISP users (Rifts China)

Nearly all of the time Chi Users in the rifts setting are chars that have been rifted to the setting.

I would work on that premise too. the only situation I could see a true Chi user is if two people from N&SS that were rifted in got together and had kids. then technically the lucky fetus is born of parents from another reality where Chi was. ant that is one very lucky little fetus.

Nope that is not what I meant.
The MA's in Rifts are only trained to tap their PPE or ISP. That is why so few of them use their Chi for their MA powers.
The Chi using chars from other settings would already be trained in the use of Chi for fueling their MA powers.

It is the oddball that has found and convinced "Master Bob" (more like Master Roshi) to train him/her in how to use Chi and Chi powers.

The part you are forgetting is the All Chars Have a Chi Stat. Even if the stat is not detailed in most of the game books.

Was more implying that lucky fetus would be growing up around Chi users more than genetic predisposition. It would mean he'd learn more easily. It would be like learning a language by being raised in a family that speaks it as a native language. But either way you are right Chi is the "forgotten" stat its the skill that is rare and hard to find.

[Tor]

Eh, I doubt every NPC has their PPE listed, even if it usually is. It's okay to ignore a stat if it usually won't matter. Chi is actually the easiest stat to ignore since we can calculate it based on PE unless there's reason to modify it, so it'd be a waste of space to list it for most people.

[Nightmask]

NJSS lists many reasons to double or modify chi. You have to retcon EVERY class to fix chi for all of them. PERIOD.
trying to Keep the chi as stat for Post Ultimate Edition games is stupid. PERIOD.

As already noted, no you don't and no it would not be stupid to to use the Chi stat for what it's for: things that make use of Chi. It would be stupid to try and make it out that Chi was actually ISP or PPE when it's neither. You don't want to make use of actual chi abilities in Rifts you're free to not do so BUT people who aren't willing to rewrite the entire Chi system and prefer using Chi as it actually is are not stupid for desiring to do so nor would one need to do anything to the vast majority of classes when it comes to having chi as it's already made clear that in general your Chi stat is equal to your PE stat no retconning required.

[drewkitty ~..~]

NJSS lists many reasons to double or modify chi. You have to retcon EVERY class to fix chi for all of them. PERIOD.
trying to Keep the chi as stat for Post Ultimate Edition games is stupid. PERIOD.

Outside of a MAF modifying the char's Chi Score, what are said modifiers you are mentioning? Where is the text covering said modifiers found? (B/P/P)

MAF= Martial Arts Form

[drewkitty ~..~]

Check N&S Revised, where it lists conversion notes with Rifts and Heroes Unlimited Revised.Various classes started with +10 or more chi, many started with double chi.
If you're not going to allow conversion between PPE/isp/chi among practitioners, you're A) cheating. B) not giving it justice.

So what you are complaining about is the conversion note...

Way didn't you say that in the 1st place?
-----------
Lets see in the N&S book conversion notes:
In PF: Witch, Warlock, & Shaman get +5 chi and Mind Mages have double normal chi.

In HU: if the char has ExPE or Karmic power has double Chi.
--
Outside the N&S book.
In MC: Some of the classes sometimes get a +1d6 chi level up.

Rifter 3: Supernatural beings have double PE Chi, optionally.

I don't see any problem. Class based mod's and Hero power based mod's. With a optional what race the char is mod's. No way for a Munchkin to manipulate the N&S conversion notes to badly. They would ether get +5 chi or double in classes that don't get a chance to use said bonus chi. And with the MM...well it does not matter cause it would take a GM intervention to let them change to or from the PCC.
----------
The reason the chi rule text do not usable for ISP and PPE is that They are Rules About Chi, Not About ISP & PPE.

I hate it when players try to stretch rules meant to cover a discreet/limited section of the Gaming System to cover more then what they were written for.

[Nightmask]

nightmask, You are wrong. Many types of classes have modified chi
Demons, vampires, Spirits also have modified chi
Many Psionic and super abilities modify chi, and it's not always equal to your pe, and your Done. infact, Psionics Can Affect Chi, and they list quite a few (Mind block for example blocks all chi attacks/manipulations).

So yes, one either has to use Rifter 3, Rifter 18, Or use one of the official Rifts conversions (RCB1R, japan, China) for Chi abilities, for post Ultimate Edition Games.

Or they can use Chi as written and the conversion material in the original Rifts: Conversion book so as to actually use Chi of which neither ISP nor PPE are.

[Nightmask]

You either modify the whole setting to use chi or you take it out. no half assing.

Either/Or fallacy, not everything needs or should be modified to use chi and chi in general requires little actual change to add to Rifts. No matter how much you want to try and make it out as some horribly complicated and difficult process it's not, just as you don't have to do any complicated changes to Robotech to use PPE and magic or ISP and psionics just some simple adjustments.

[Nightmask]

... apparently you're under the fallacy that just because a setting describes something in one way, it works the same in others. you have to realize you are wrong.

Apparently you're under the mistaken impression that ISP and PPE are Chi, and have yet to realize that you are the one that's wrong. Chi is Chi, ISP and PPE aren't Chi, if they were then they wouldn't be called ISP or PPE they'd be called Chi. Basic logic. You're free to keep up with that erroneous position of course, but it won't make me wrong because neither ISP nor PPE are Chi, since they aren't chi they aren't chi and what's written for them doesn't change how Chi works because again, they aren't Chi.

[drewkitty ~..~]

You either modify the whole setting to use chi or you take it out. no half assing.

Chi is just another stat that a char has. It does not replace anything.

[Tor]

Since when do we have to modify a setting to use chi? The only major change chi would have for most people is that it can drop to negative (negating healing) as a result of a specific kind of random insanity, but that's about it.

That's also a cool change.

[eliakon]

again, wrong, ... Chi was written when there was no PPE it is it's own metasystem like the force. you either use it in everything or you do not. in Rifts, Everything living has ppe. in N&S Every living thing has chi.

PPE existed in BTS1 which was published in 1987, N&SS came in 1988. So already they had invented PPE. Although its universality was still under way.
PPE stats were not included in N&SS simply because, until MC came out, there was no MAGIC in the system. Same reason there was on ISP rules....There were no psionics. This is also the main reason that there has been no real use of Chi stats outside of N&SS. Since outside of that line, there is no one to use it, or attack it...

However its ALSO arguable that Chi is a 'dimensional feature' that is exclusive to the N&SS universe, just as well as claim it is a universal feature of the Megaverse. Nothing has been said, canonicaly either way....so both interpretations are equally justified house rulings.

[Svartalf]

But it was back when Kev published games by authors other than himself, I bet PPE was an invention of Randy McCall whereas Chi was a system devised by Erick W... different authors, different systems

[eliakon]

But it was back when Kev published games by authors other than himself, I bet PPE was an invention of Randy McCall whereas Chi was a system devised by Erick W... different authors, different systems

Which might work....if they didn't routinely leave PPE out of their non-magic games
RT, RT2, TMNT (all), ATB, Systems Failure, Splicers.....All have neither PPE nor Chi, nor anything ELSE that isn't relevant to the specific universe. Some of them have conversion notes, but again...that's conversions. The precedent thus seems to be "The only things that we put in any game are those things that are relevant."
As a basis in fact for saying that there is no Chi in Rifts, its pretty compelling (yes, there is Chi in the Megaverse...in N&SS....and one NPC).

[drewkitty ~..~]

With the publishing of the Mystic China book, it was established that Chi is just another stat for chars. This is because All Three main mystic energies (PPE-ISP-Chi) are mentioned as being separate (discreet from each other) in the same book.
[With Bio-E being a fourth, but only used in char creation. And established as separate from the other three with the HU2 book.]

[eliakon]

With the publishing of the Mystic China book, it was established that Chi is just another stat for chars. This is because All Three main mystic energies (PPE-ISP-Chi) are mentioned as being separate (discreet from each other) in the same book.
[With Bio-E being a fourth.]

just another stat for characters...In That Universe. It still may or may not exist in any OTHER universe/line. And in fact it takes an affirmative act (I have added Chi, since Chi is not a default) to make it exist.

MC just clarifies how Chi works for the MC/N&SS world anyway. But yes, its an additional 'stat' that, if Chi exists, exists in all, or at least all living, things. Which is great...if its part of the game. But just as PPE still theoretically exists in RT, even though there is no magic, its not relevant since....there is no magic. Chi may, theoretically, exist in Rifts, but if there is no way to detect/use/manipulate/whatever it....its just as relevant as PPE in Robotech.

[Nightmask]

With the publishing of the Mystic China book, it was established that Chi is just another stat for chars. This is because All Three main mystic energies (PPE-ISP-Chi) are mentioned as being separate (discreet from each other) in the same book.
[With Bio-E being a fourth.]

just another stat for characters...In That Universe. It still may or may not exist in any OTHER universe/line. And in fact it takes an affirmative act (I have added Chi, since Chi is not a default) to make it exist.

MC just clarifies how Chi works for the MC/N&SS world anyway. But yes, its an additional 'stat' that, if Chi exists, exists in all, or at least all living, things. Which is great...if its part of the game. But just as PPE still theoretically exists in RT, even though there is no magic, its not relevant since....there is no magic. Chi may, theoretically, exist in Rifts, but if there is no way to detect/use/manipulate/whatever it....its just as relevant as PPE in Robotech.

Less theoretical and more 'sure it's there but no one knows how to use it so no reason to list the stat', not listing the stat in a universe/setting where it isn't used doesn't mean it doesn't exist just that no one has the means to utilize it so why track something you aren't using? If IQ wasn't relevant to a setting for some reason and they left the stat off it wouldn't mean everyone's without intelligence just that it's not a stat that's utilized.

[Tor]

again, wrong, ... Chi was written when there was no PPE it is it's own metasystem like the force. you either use it in everything or you do not. in Rifts, Everything living has ppe. in N&S Every living thing has chi.

PPE existed and was even incorporated into Mystic China, as was ISP. The main book didn't mention them because they weren't significant factors (much like with TMNT).

All Three main mystic energies (PPE-ISP-Chi) are mentioned as being separate (discreet from each other) in the same book.

Some might object to calling them mystic even though all 3 can power mysticism.

[With Bio-E being a fourth, but only used in char creation. And established as separate from the other three with the HU2 book.]

Bio-E can also be used outside creation, like when time travel mutates your Bio-E or when Time Lords manipulate it. Plus there's force points and power points from HU/PU1.

Chi may, theoretically, exist in Rifts, but if there is no way to detect/use/manipulate/whatever it....its just as relevant as PPE in Robotech.

I largely agree here, Chi and PPE are ignorable things unless there are people who can affect them.

The only real modification that needs to be made are those rare people who have psychosis. In their case, every crisis they have a 20% chance of losing their ability to heal until their chi is treated, gradually dying without it. The guys with negative chi (only half of these) are screwed. The zero-chi guys are a bit better off. NaSS and MC are a bit inconsistent about whether you can simply recover from 0 chi or not. I think MC said you needed at least 1 point of chi to generate further chi via sleep or meditation, but I don't think NaSS said that.

[eliakon]

The only real modification that needs to be made are those rare people who have psychosis. In their case, every crisis they have a 20% chance of losing their ability to heal until their chi is treated, gradually dying without it. The guys with negative chi (only half of these) are screwed. The zero-chi guys are a bit better off. NaSS and MC are a bit inconsistent about whether you can simply recover from 0 chi or not. I think MC said you needed at least 1 point of chi to generate further chi via sleep or meditation, but I don't think NaSS said that.

I was not aware that insanity of any kind affected chi...which book is that in?

[Tor]

N&SS pg 22 has 'chi and insanity' as topic under the Insanity section.

Page 25 also has cool rules on how drug abuse affect your chi.

Yet more reasons why we can't just sub in PPE or ISP, since they aren't affected in these ways.

[Colt47]

It's been a while since I've played a Rifts game, but the last time we tried using Chi things got very weird VERY fast. There are things that chi can do that PPE and magic only dream of, and some monsters have basically no official rules on how Chi attacks effect them. It's utterly devastating vs Vampires and other beings that depend on regeneration to be a threat, but against other monsters someone might as well be throwing a wet spunge at a demonic doberman.

To be truthful, it would probably take a bit of a system rewrite to fully integrate Chi, PPE, and ISP into a unified and cohesive system, let alone martial arts.

[SolCannibal]

It's been a while since I've played a Rifts game, but the last time we tried using Chi things got very weird VERY fast. There are things that chi can do that PPE and magic only dream of, and some monsters have basically no official rules on how Chi attacks effect them. It's utterly devastating vs Vampires and other beings that depend on regeneration to be a threat, but against other monsters someone might as well be throwing a wet spunge at a demonic doberman.

To be truthful, it would probably take a bit of a system rewrite to fully integrate Chi, PPE, and ISP into a unified and cohesive system, let alone martial arts.

Well, if it has differents strengths and weaknesses in relation to magic & psionics, it doesn't look as a problem as long as they even out overall.