Chi users in RIFTS?

[kongol]

I liked the idea of martial artists in media, and I always liked the idea of chi powers giving your character the ability to do things from kung fu movies. However, I noticed that there are no real Chi using characters in the rifts setting that I've been able to find. Maybe I'm blind, maybe they've never been given much love in rifts. But no matter what, that Chi points section on the character sheet has always bothered me since I started playing palladiumbooks games.

Are there any resources that actually USE chi points? If so, are the abilities any good? Either way, what source books are they on?

I've been pondering this a while and I can't seem to find anything in my google searches.

[Nightmask]

You need the original Rifts: Conversion book to see how chi converts, as Palladium has had issues with trying to make it out to be ISP or PPE in places like Rifts: Japan and Rifts: China rather than leaving it as a separate and distinct thing. So there are rules to convert Ninjas and Superspies (I don't think it covers the newer stuff in Mystic China) abilities over, some provide MDC or deal mega-damage or behave slightly differently in Rifts (Dim Mak becomes removable under somewhat easier circumstances for example).

[kongol]

Oh okay. good to know.

[Tor]

The only character given a chi stat I have seen outside of NaSS is Kenshi from Rifts Mercs, a ninja who has mystic invisibility and stuff. NaSS and Mystic China are the only books that deal with them, but you can port them over to any setting, a major power factor, really.

CB1 had some notes about them though they are a bit confusing and contradict the design structure, like what Dim Mak does to people.

Even if dmg and SDC protection do not convert to MD or MDC (unclear on this) it is still a major resource.

Rifts Japan and Rifts China are not chi powers but rather ISP-PPE powers that emulate actual chi, although in Rifts the residents often mistakenly call it chi.

[drewkitty ~..~]

..... Rifter 3 (i believe) has the conversions for the MC chi powers and chi spells.
---------
As SOP I fill in the chi stat. (Note: I record what the stat not give it the stat since all chars have chi....it is just most settings don't have chars that use the chi stat. Sort of like filling in/recording the char's PPE level when they are not a PPE user.) Just because....sometime I don't know the actual setting the char is going to be used in.
The Chi stat is equal to the char's PE score.

[kongol]

Are there any like, cool chi powers in those books? Like you know, stuff you see in kung fu movies and what not? Like you mentioned Dim-Mak, but is that all it has?

[jaymz]

Well N&SS has things like Body Hardening exercises as well as a other things.

[Nightmask]

Are there any like, cool chi powers in those books? Like you know, stuff you see in kung fu movies and what not? Like you mentioned Dim-Mak, but is that all it has?

Between the two books (Ninjas and Super-Spies and Mystic China) in a setting like Rifts a character can end up a minor MDC being, able to inflict mega-damage, and Vibrating Palm can with a little effort destroy even a massively MDC item by simply focusing on it (although it needs to be stationary or otherwise able to touch it steadily without interruption) to name a few things.

You however won't be playing Goku tossing off Spirit Bombs, flying, teleporting, or the like. You can however find a special ability that'll let you detect everything with a short distance from you, making surprise melee attacks inside that range impossible and negate the usual benefits Invisibility grants and another that improves your Initiative and increases over time.

[kongol]

Between the two books (Ninjas and Super-Spies and Mystic China) in a setting like Rifts a character can end up a minor MDC being, able to inflict mega-damage, and Vibrating Palm can with a little effort destroy even a massively MDC item by simply focusing on it (although it needs to be stationary or otherwise able to touch it steadily without interruption) to name a few things.

This... this is what I want. Using Ki to be better... improvement of self. Using the vital flow of your self and the world around you. Improving what you were already capable of to amazing levels. I like this kind of flavor over the other example.

You however won't be playing Goku tossing off Spirit Bombs, flying, teleporting, or the like.

Goku... is pretty much NOT what I want to be doing. That's more like... superpowers under the facade of being 'ki'.

Thanks for the hints. I'll look into it.

[Killer Cyborg]

I liked the idea of martial artists in media, and I always liked the idea of chi powers giving your character the ability to do things from kung fu movies. However, I noticed that there are no real Chi using characters in the rifts setting that I've been able to find. Maybe I'm blind, maybe they've never been given much love in rifts. But no matter what, that Chi points section on the character sheet has always bothered me since I started playing palladiumbooks games.

Are there any resources that actually USE chi points? If so, are the abilities any good? Either way, what source books are they on?

I've been pondering this a while and I can't seem to find anything in my google searches.

Get Ninjas & Superspies.
Use it for Rifts.

Otherwise, you're stuck using PPE and Chi interchangeably, or ISP and Chi interchangeably, depending on which half-donkeyed martial/mystic arts Rifts rules you end up using.

And ignore the Conversion Book rules for converting N&S characters, unless you want to deal with absurdities such as Wrist Hardening granting a martial artist +4 MDC, or Kick Practice allowing you to do 2d6 MD on a kick.

[Nightmask]

I liked the idea of martial artists in media, and I always liked the idea of chi powers giving your character the ability to do things from kung fu movies. However, I noticed that there are no real Chi using characters in the rifts setting that I've been able to find. Maybe I'm blind, maybe they've never been given much love in rifts. But no matter what, that Chi points section on the character sheet has always bothered me since I started playing palladiumbooks games.

Are there any resources that actually USE chi points? If so, are the abilities any good? Either way, what source books are they on?

I've been pondering this a while and I can't seem to find anything in my google searches.

Get Ninjas & Superspies.
Use it for Rifts.

Otherwise, you're stuck using PPE and Chi interchangeably, or ISP and Chi interchangeably, depending on which half-donkeyed martial/mystic arts Rifts rules you end up using.

And ignore the Conversion Book rules for converting N&S characters, unless you want to deal with absurdities such as Wrist Hardening granting a martial artist +4 MDC, or Kick Practice allowing you to do 2d6 MD on a kick.

Which would defeat the reasons he's made clear he wants them in the first place, and they're no more absurd than anything else in Rifts. Which is why he will want the Conversion book rules to cover the ways the Martial Art Abilities are enhanced in a setting like Rifts.

[Nightmask]

Between the two books (Ninjas and Super-Spies and Mystic China) in a setting like Rifts a character can end up a minor MDC being, able to inflict mega-damage, and Vibrating Palm can with a little effort destroy even a massively MDC item by simply focusing on it (although it needs to be stationary or otherwise able to touch it steadily without interruption) to name a few things.

This... this is what I want. Using Ki to be better... improvement of self. Using the vital flow of your self and the world around you. Improving what you were already capable of to amazing levels. I like this kind of flavor over the other example.

Glad to be of help. You can definitely improve yourself, and there's at least one NPC from the Rifts: Mercenaries book that's a Ninjas And Super-Spies Dedicated Martial Artist (a Ninja of course).

You however won't be playing Goku tossing off Spirit Bombs, flying, teleporting, or the like.

Goku... is pretty much NOT what I want to be doing. That's more like... superpowers under the facade of being 'ki'.

Thanks for the hints. I'll look into it.

Just wanted to be clear about how far it wouldn't go.

[SolCannibal]

You need the original Rifts: Conversion book to see how chi converts, as Palladium has had issues with trying to make it out to be ISP or PPE in places like Rifts: Japan and Rifts: China rather than leaving it as a separate and distinct thing.

What kind of issues beside SDC x MDC conversion problems? I'm curious.

[Nightmask]

You need the original Rifts: Conversion book to see how chi converts, as Palladium has had issues with trying to make it out to be ISP or PPE in places like Rifts: Japan and Rifts: China rather than leaving it as a separate and distinct thing.

What kind of issues beside SDC x MDC conversion problems? I'm curious.

Not sure, I've only heard a few things around here and had noticed that in Rifts: Japan that rather than using Chi they'd used PPE (even as they referred to it in terms more suited to chi) to do things like activate the MDC transformation certain mystic MA powers provided. From what I've seen here since I don't have the China books there they used ISP while basically calling it by chi terms rather than again just using chi, even though Chi is distinctly different from both.

[SolCannibal]

You need the original Rifts: Conversion book to see how chi converts, as Palladium has had issues with trying to make it out to be ISP or PPE in places like Rifts: Japan and Rifts: China rather than leaving it as a separate and distinct thing.

What kind of issues beside SDC x MDC conversion problems? I'm curious.

Not sure, I've only heard a few things around here and had noticed that in Rifts: Japan that rather than using Chi they'd used PPE (even as they referred to it in terms more suited to chi) to do things like activate the MDC transformation certain mystic MA powers provided. From what I've seen here since I don't have the China books there they used ISP while basically calling it by chi terms rather than again just using chi, even though Chi is distinctly different from both.

I would like to get a better hang of what exactly makes it distinct, as in my games tend to merge ISP and PPE - that is supposed to mean Paranormal Potential Energy, anyways - in just one pool for the sake of simplicity and less bean counting.

[Nightmask]

You need the original Rifts: Conversion book to see how chi converts, as Palladium has had issues with trying to make it out to be ISP or PPE in places like Rifts: Japan and Rifts: China rather than leaving it as a separate and distinct thing.

What kind of issues beside SDC x MDC conversion problems? I'm curious.

Not sure, I've only heard a few things around here and had noticed that in Rifts: Japan that rather than using Chi they'd used PPE (even as they referred to it in terms more suited to chi) to do things like activate the MDC transformation certain mystic MA powers provided. From what I've seen here since I don't have the China books there they used ISP while basically calling it by chi terms rather than again just using chi, even though Chi is distinctly different from both.

I would like to get a better hang of what exactly makes it distinct, as in my games tend to merge ISP and PPE - that is supposed to mean Paranormal Potential Energy, anyways - in just one pool for the sake of simplicity and less bean counting.

Well Palladium defines PPE as Potential Psychic Energy, and ISP as Inner Strength Points.

One of the things that makes Chi distinct is it not only runs throughout everything but comes in both positive and negative aspects and even an area high in one has small amounts of the other. Positive chi is necessary for healing and if someone's infected with Negative Chi they not only can't heal but will eventually wither away and die (which is why Dim Mak is so evil, since it blocks your ability to naturally recover positive chi) and a negative chi master can use that to inflict horrific damage on someone or permanently enslave them.

[SolCannibal]

You need the original Rifts: Conversion book to see how chi converts, as Palladium has had issues with trying to make it out to be ISP or PPE in places like Rifts: Japan and Rifts: China rather than leaving it as a separate and distinct thing.

What kind of issues beside SDC x MDC conversion problems? I'm curious.

Not sure, I've only heard a few things around here and had noticed that in Rifts: Japan that rather than using Chi they'd used PPE (even as they referred to it in terms more suited to chi) to do things like activate the MDC transformation certain mystic MA powers provided. From what I've seen here since I don't have the China books there they used ISP while basically calling it by chi terms rather than again just using chi, even though Chi is distinctly different from both.

I would like to get a better hang of what exactly makes it distinct, as in my games tend to merge ISP and PPE - that is supposed to mean Paranormal Potential Energy, anyways - in just one pool for the sake of simplicity and less bean counting.

Well Palladium defines PPE as Potential Psychic Energy, and ISP as Inner Strength Points.

Yes, that, my mistake. Anyway, my point is that the two kinds of energy don't seem to have much in the way of distinct flavor per se, simply charging different brands of powers - not to mention both kinds of energy are equally compatible with ley lines or techno-wizardry among other details, so did not feel much of a loss in "just" using slightly larger PPE pools for both.

One of the things that makes Chi distinct is it not only runs throughout everything but comes in both positive and negative aspects and even an area high in one has small amounts of the other. Positive chi is necessary for healing and if someone's infected with Negative Chi they not only can't heal but will eventually wither away and die (which is why Dim Mak is so evil, since it blocks your ability to naturally recover positive chi) and a negative chi master can use that to inflict horrific damage on someone or permanently enslave them.

Yes, there's the matter of the aspects indeed - in my Aliens Unlimited game, that borrows a bunch of stuff from Mystic China - i went with "flavorless chi as PPE" and connected chi aspect to alignement, aura and personal intent, but who knows, might go back to the essentials next time.

[Nightmask]

Well Palladium defines PPE as Potential Psychic Energy, and ISP as Inner Strength Points.

Yes, that, my mistake. Anyway, my point is that the two kinds of energy don't seem to have much in the way of distinct flavor per se, simply charging different brands of powers - not to mention both kinds of energy are equally compatible with ley lines or techno-wizardry among other details, so did not feel much of a loss in "just" using slightly larger PPE pools for both.

They aren't equally compatible though, it requires far more ISP to power a TW item for example (and far more PPE with regards to Gizmoteer Psi-Gadgets) than it requires in PPE. I'll agree that calling PPE PPE is a mistake, instead of having it as obvious magical energy and ISP be purely mental energy that just happened to be able to be converted between each other at a loss.

One of the things that makes Chi distinct is it not only runs throughout everything but comes in both positive and negative aspects and even an area high in one has small amounts of the other. Positive chi is necessary for healing and if someone's infected with Negative Chi they not only can't heal but will eventually wither away and die (which is why Dim Mak is so evil, since it blocks your ability to naturally recover positive chi) and a negative chi master can use that to inflict horrific damage on someone or permanently enslave them.

Yes, there's the matter of the aspects indeed - in my Aliens Unlimited game, that borrows a bunch of stuff from Mystic China - i went with "flavorless chi as PPE" and connected chi aspect to alignement, aura and personal intent, but who knows, might go back to the essentials next time.

You do lose the distinct value of Chi if you treat it as PPE, and it's not like it requires any serious effort to include Chi as written up in Ninjas and Super-Spies alongside PPE and ISP.

[SolCannibal]

Well Palladium defines PPE as Potential Psychic Energy, and ISP as Inner Strength Points.

Yes, that, my mistake. Anyway, my point is that the two kinds of energy don't seem to have much in the way of distinct flavor per se, simply charging different brands of powers - not to mention both kinds of energy are equally compatible with ley lines or techno-wizardry among other details, so did not feel much of a loss in "just" using slightly larger PPE pools for both.

They aren't equally compatible though, it requires far more ISP to power a TW item for example (and far more PPE with regards to Gizmoteer Psi-Gadgets) than it requires in PPE. I'll agree that calling PPE PPE is a mistake, instead of having it as obvious magical energy and ISP be purely mental energy that just happened to be able to be converted between each other at a loss.

But considering the rates of conversion for the TW items or Psi-gadgets is no big deal, i simply put it as a matter of specialization/practice, read, a magician using psi-gadgets pays double the cost and the same happens to psychics using TW. That said, yes, OCCs and characters with both sets of powers do get an advantage in being able to use both things at normal cost.

One of the things that makes Chi distinct is it not only runs throughout everything but comes in both positive and negative aspects and even an area high in one has small amounts of the other. Positive chi is necessary for healing and if someone's infected with Negative Chi they not only can't heal but will eventually wither away and die (which is why Dim Mak is so evil, since it blocks your ability to naturally recover positive chi) and a negative chi master can use that to inflict horrific damage on someone or permanently enslave them.

Yes, there's the matter of the aspects indeed - in my Aliens Unlimited game, that borrows a bunch of stuff from Mystic China - i went with "flavorless chi as PPE" and connected chi aspect to alignement, aura and personal intent, but who knows, might go back to the essentials next time.

You do lose the distinct value of Chi if you treat it as PPE, and it's not like it requires any serious effort to include Chi as written up in Ninjas and Super-Spies alongside PPE and ISP.

I actually use Heroes Unlimited, not Ninjas and Super-Spies, but i get what you mean.

[Killer Cyborg]

I liked the idea of martial artists in media, and I always liked the idea of chi powers giving your character the ability to do things from kung fu movies. However, I noticed that there are no real Chi using characters in the rifts setting that I've been able to find. Maybe I'm blind, maybe they've never been given much love in rifts. But no matter what, that Chi points section on the character sheet has always bothered me since I started playing palladiumbooks games.

Are there any resources that actually USE chi points? If so, are the abilities any good? Either way, what source books are they on?

I've been pondering this a while and I can't seem to find anything in my google searches.

Get Ninjas & Superspies.
Use it for Rifts.

Otherwise, you're stuck using PPE and Chi interchangeably, or ISP and Chi interchangeably, depending on which half-donkeyed martial/mystic arts Rifts rules you end up using.

And ignore the Conversion Book rules for converting N&S characters, unless you want to deal with absurdities such as Wrist Hardening granting a martial artist +4 MDC, or Kick Practice allowing you to do 2d6 MD on a kick.

Which would defeat the reasons he's made clear he wants them in the first place, and they're no more absurd than anything else in Rifts.

An ordinary human kicking with the power of 20 sticks of TNT is equally absurd as a a laser rifle doing that much damage?
Interesting view on reality.

[kongol]

But at least its not spirit bomb, right?

[Aku-Arkaine]

However, I noticed that there are no real Chi using characters in the rifts setting that I've been able to find.

There is a chi user that is a major villain in the Rifts novels.

[Nightmask]

However, I noticed that there are no real Chi using characters in the rifts setting that I've been able to find.

There is a chi user that is a major villain in the Rifts novels.

Yes, the Tien Hsueh Touch Master who uses Dim Mak to quietly eliminate people by giving them a seemingly harmless poke with his finger (although from what I can tell from the actual book that shouldn't work, you have to actually deal damage rather than just a poke) then when they were dead move in.

[kongol]

So I saw there were a lot of interesting things in the Mystic China book. Like Mudras, different martial arts styles, but I didn't find where the basic techniques were, nor was I able to tell how one of the OCC's in that book GOT to take mudras or special styles or learn chi techniques. I like the abilities listed but it seems all the more confusing now.

[Nightmask]

So I saw there were a lot of interesting things in the Mystic China book. Like Mudras, different martial arts styles, but I didn't find where the basic techniques were, nor was I able to tell how one of the OCC's in that book GOT to take mudras or special styles or learn chi techniques. I like the abilities listed but it seems all the more confusing now.

Mudras are part of one of the OCC as well as part of one of the Martial Arts (haven't got the book handy to point to the exact pages) , in regards to learning Martial Art abilities including Chi techniques you have to look under each Martial art to see which techniques are available for selection (some, like Tae Kwon Do only make the Body Hardening and Martial Arts Techniques available, while Pao Chih makes only Chi techniques available). So you have to read each Martial Art to find those that offer access to the particular Martial Art powers you're interested in.

Depending on what you want you may need one of the OCC that make two Martial Arts available, and techniques learned for one Martial Art can't be used with a different one (you can only use one MA and gain its various bonuses at a time) other than Body Hardening and Martial Arts Techniques which are available no matter what MA you happen to be using (since some, like the Body Hardening techniques are permanent physical enhancements or too ubiquitous to not be able to work with any martial art).

[kongol]

Oh... I see.

So, is there any mechanic for going out of one's way to learn/master multiple styles?

Best reference I can think of is History's strongest disciple Kenichi... where he was trained by six masters at the same time. Turned from a complete wimp to a somewhat competent fighter (I suspect much of his improvements are those body hardening techniques you mentioned)

[Nightmask]

Oh... I see.

So, is there any mechanic for going out of one's way to learn/master multiple styles?

Best reference I can think of is History's strongest disciple Kenichi... where he was trained by six masters at the same time. Turned from a complete wimp to a somewhat competent fighter (I suspect much of his improvements are those body hardening techniques you mentioned)

Kenichi makes for a good manga series (I mention it over in the Ninjas and Superspies setting), and in general there are only a handful of OCC that let you master two (or three if you have the first printing of Ninjas and Superspies) Martial Arts simultaneously. The Dedicated Martial Artist from Ninjas and Superspies, and a few OCC I can't remember off the top of my head in Mystic China (although their selections are generally more limited) offer 2 Martial Arts simultaneously.

Kenichi's actually proving quite exceptional, he's constantly surprising experts with his ability to improvise and pull off things they're sure should be beyond him courtesy of his mastery of the basics and ability to blend the styles he's been taught. You can't, however, do that with Palladium's system as you can only use one particular Martial Art style each combat melee so you have to switch among them rather than get to use the best techniques and bonuses from all of them at the same time.

[eliakon]

Oh... I see.

So, is there any mechanic for going out of one's way to learn/master multiple styles?

Best reference I can think of is History's strongest disciple Kenichi... where he was trained by six masters at the same time. Turned from a complete wimp to a somewhat competent fighter (I suspect much of his improvements are those body hardening techniques you mentioned)

Kenichi makes for a good manga series (I mention it over in the Ninjas and Superspies setting), and in general there are only a handful of OCC that let you master two (or three if you have the first printing of Ninjas and Superspies) Martial Arts simultaneously. The Dedicated Martial Artist from Ninjas and Superspies, and a few OCC I can't remember off the top of my head in Mystic China (although their selections are generally more limited) offer 2 Martial Arts simultaneously.

Kenichi's actually proving quite exceptional, he's constantly surprising experts with his ability to improvise and pull off things they're sure should be beyond him courtesy of his mastery of the basics and ability to blend the styles he's been taught. You can't, however, do that with Palladium's system as you can only use one particular Martial Art style each combat melee so you have to switch among them rather than get to use the best techniques and bonuses from all of them at the same time.

Kenichi would be a good example of the sort of thing a Physical Training person has/does.
they take lots of different stuff and combine it into their one unique style.

[guardiandashi]

Oh... I see.

So, is there any mechanic for going out of one's way to learn/master multiple styles?

Best reference I can think of is History's strongest disciple Kenichi... where he was trained by six masters at the same time. Turned from a complete wimp to a somewhat competent fighter (I suspect much of his improvements are those body hardening techniques you mentioned)

Kenichi makes for a good manga series (I mention it over in the Ninjas and Superspies setting), and in general there are only a handful of OCC that let you master two (or three if you have the first printing of Ninjas and Superspies) Martial Arts simultaneously. The Dedicated Martial Artist from Ninjas and Superspies, and a few OCC I can't remember off the top of my head in Mystic China (although their selections are generally more limited) offer 2 Martial Arts simultaneously.

Kenichi's actually proving quite exceptional, he's constantly surprising experts with his ability to improvise and pull off things they're sure should be beyond him courtesy of his mastery of the basics and ability to blend the styles he's been taught. You can't, however, do that with Palladium's system as you can only use one particular Martial Art style each combat melee so you have to switch among them rather than get to use the best techniques and bonuses from all of them at the same time.

this is one place where the campaign I was in deviates from RAW IE if you train in h2h basic or expert or martial arts (quickie kung fu per n&ss) or whatever martial arts for you can NEVER learn a different one, and you can't merge styles or ....

the gm also created some new techniques based on some odd things from games and also some anime. like one he called the dime technique. it was intended to vastly increase your speed in certain circumstances. the basic training was similar to one of the wrist hardening (body toughening) exercises in that your master put a dime in the bottom of a pot (or container of water) and the goal was to retrieve it without getting wet.

the creator of the technique was a vampire that dropped a sword (rune sword I think) into a stream and couldn't find or trust anyone to help her retrieve it... so she had to figure out a way to get the sword back without taking significant damage (or any) from the flowing water....

of course if you watch the karate kid or the remake with Jaden smith the forms they use are not the simple palladium (N&SS) versions because they use techniques from multiple forms

[Nightmask]

Oh... I see.

So, is there any mechanic for going out of one's way to learn/master multiple styles?

Best reference I can think of is History's strongest disciple Kenichi... where he was trained by six masters at the same time. Turned from a complete wimp to a somewhat competent fighter (I suspect much of his improvements are those body hardening techniques you mentioned)

Kenichi makes for a good manga series (I mention it over in the Ninjas and Superspies setting), and in general there are only a handful of OCC that let you master two (or three if you have the first printing of Ninjas and Superspies) Martial Arts simultaneously. The Dedicated Martial Artist from Ninjas and Superspies, and a few OCC I can't remember off the top of my head in Mystic China (although their selections are generally more limited) offer 2 Martial Arts simultaneously.

Kenichi's actually proving quite exceptional, he's constantly surprising experts with his ability to improvise and pull off things they're sure should be beyond him courtesy of his mastery of the basics and ability to blend the styles he's been taught. You can't, however, do that with Palladium's system as you can only use one particular Martial Art style each combat melee so you have to switch among them rather than get to use the best techniques and bonuses from all of them at the same time.

this is one place where the campaign I was in deviates from RAW IE if you train in h2h basic or expert or martial arts (quickie kung fu per n&ss) or whatever martial arts for you can NEVER learn a different one, and you can't merge styles or ....

That seems both a bummer and wrong, human beings in the real world certainly have no problems learning new Martial Arts and the game is meant to be larger than life not lesser.

the gm also created some new techniques based on some odd things from games and also some anime. like one he called the dime technique. it was intended to vastly increase your speed in certain circumstances. the basic training was similar to one of the wrist hardening (body toughening) exercises in that your master put a dime in the bottom of a pot (or container of water) and the goal was to retrieve it without getting wet.

the creator of the technique was a vampire that dropped a sword (rune sword I think) into a stream and couldn't find or trust anyone to help her retrieve it... so she had to figure out a way to get the sword back without taking significant damage (or any) from the flowing water....

of course if you watch the karate kid or the remake with Jaden smith the forms they use are not the simple palladium (N&SS) versions because they use techniques from multiple forms

I imagine much of the time when you look at movies and shows where Martial Arts come up that they use techniques from more than one form. Captain America from the movie for example is supposed to be trained in a number of different martial arts that he combines for exceptional effect. Unfortunately I doubt we have anyone with experience at combining Martial Arts in a game so that a PC got the best benefits and techniques from all their Martial arts in one unified whole rather than having to pick which to use each combat round.

[Tor]

ignore the Conversion Book rules for converting N&S characters, unless you want to deal with absurdities such as Wrist Hardening granting a martial artist +4 MDC, or Kick Practice allowing you to do 2d6 MD on a kick.

Or a misunderstanding of the mechanics of Dim Mak and Vibrating Palm.

[kongol]

So I guess if I wanted to play a character who learned the basics of each style he could find a master for, I'd have to play a different system.

I am not sure what to do. I guess this is one of those things that won't work in RIFTS.

[EDIT]

.... I mean unless I made up my own style that was called "Method of Six Paths" or something cool, and designed it from the ground up.

Are there any rules for doing that?

[Tor]

You don't need a different system, you can just use multiple OCCs and select a new martial art with each OCC. You can be a level 1 worldly martial artist in snake style, a level 2 wordly in tai chi, a level 3 dedicated in karate and judo, etc.

[drewkitty ~..~]

You don't need a different system, you can just use multiple OCCs and select a new martial art with each OCC. You can be a level 1 worldly martial artist in snake style, a level 2 worldly in tai chi, a level 3 dedicated in karate and judo, etc.

That would be age prohibitive cost for a human char to go that route. Starting off with a char that is close to or over 60 years of age. Since with each MAF there is a "to learn" cost set in 5 or more years for most MAF and then taking in account for the experience of the levels stated before changing class to just get another MAF.

Which is sort of stupid cause with DMA can learn new MAF's w/o changing class.

[Nightmask]

So I guess if I wanted to play a character who learned the basics of each style he could find a master for, I'd have to play a different system.

I am not sure what to do. I guess this is one of those things that won't work in RIFTS.

[EDIT]

.... I mean unless I made up my own style that was called "Method of Six Paths" or something cool, and designed it from the ground up.

Are there any rules for doing that?

No rules on creating your own style, afraid you'd have to develop it from the ground up as the system for Ninjas and Superspies isn't set up to mix and match features from different arts but instead to keep them segregated (even though that's not how it works RL, many Martial Arts result from someone studying hard several different forms to develop a unique art, like Bruce Lee did).

[Killer Cyborg]

So I guess if I wanted to play a character who learned the basics of each style he could find a master for, I'd have to play a different system.

I am not sure what to do. I guess this is one of those things that won't work in RIFTS.

[EDIT]

.... I mean unless I made up my own style that was called "Method of Six Paths" or something cool, and designed it from the ground up.

Are there any rules for doing that?

In N&S, you can learn multiple styles, but you have to choose which style you're using each round.
"You defeated my Tiger Style Kung Fu, but let's see how you handle my Kangaroo Style!!"

[Tor]

That would be age prohibitive cost for a human char to go that route. Starting off with a char that is close to or over 60 years of age.

You wouldn't start out that way since you'd have to change the OCCs during play. At most you can only start with 2 or 3 (old N&SS). Also many have reduced secondary costs that cut down on how many years it takes to learn them.

Since with each MAF there is a "to learn" cost set in 5 or more years for most MAF and then taking in account for the experience of the levels stated before changing class to just get another MAF.

Martial arts take longer to learn in N&SS than they might in our favourite anime, guess it's something we gotta live with.

Perhaps the lesser superability of speed-tasking could be treated as cutting the learning time in half?

with DMA can learn new MAF's w/o changing class.

By 'new' do you mean the extra 1 or 2 (old version) they start with?

In N&S, you can learn multiple styles, but you have to choose which style you're using each round.

Unlike PRPG (and perhaps Robotech?) where all HtH styles stacked

[Nightmask]

Chi use in rifts does not work without reworking everything about it and giving chi scores to everything.
that said, Copying Combat styles and Chi maneuvers is possible, just get the super power, Natural combat ability.

There wouldn't be any reason to rework how chi works to use it with Rifts, and not like it'd be that hard to give something a chi score since it's normally defaulted to your PE score.

[drewkitty ~..~]

with DMA can learn new MAF's w/o changing class.

By 'new' do you mean the extra 1 or 2 (old version) they start with?

Based in the HU inclusion notes in the back of N&Sr that Ancient Masters can end up with three MAF.

[eliakon]

with DMA can learn new MAF's w/o changing class.

By 'new' do you mean the extra 1 or 2 (old version) they start with?

Based in the HU inclusion notes in the back of N&Sr that Ancient Masters can end up with three MAF.

But an Ancient Master =/= a DMA
they are different classes, and they both START with 2 (or 3) MAF. AFAIK no one can gain a MAF after character creation with out the use of either House Rules, or changing O.C.C. (and that will cost a lot of time)

[drewkitty ~..~]

Looking for this symbol: ≠ ?

Sorry, both the N&S inclusion notes text and the HU2 text say that AM's are DMAs's when talking about them having MAF's.

Besides the talk was about how to make a 6 paths matrial artist.

[eliakon]

Looking for this symbol: ≠ ?

Sorry, both the N&S text and the HU2 text say that AM's are DMAs's.

Considered to be is not the same as Is the same.
A DMA does not get access to the AM powers, nor do they have the same skills, nor do they share XP tables.
In theory yes, an AM was probably a DMA back in the day....but he is now an AM.

None of which really matters in Rifts much, but meh

(and yes that is what =/= is, for those of us that don't play around with funky character sets)

[Nightmask]

Chi use in rifts does not work without reworking everything about it and giving chi scores to everything.
that said, Copying Combat styles and Chi maneuvers is possible, just get the super power, Natural combat ability.

There wouldn't be any reason to rework how chi works to use it with Rifts, and not like it'd be that hard to give something a chi score since it's normally defaulted to your PE score.

..
LOL. chi has to reworked into every class and combination... otherwise you end up with a mess.
See Rifter 3 for the first attempt at including chi in Rifts.

I really have no idea why you think that to be the case, because there's nothing about Chi that would make a mess of anything in Rifts let alone require you to rework everything in the game for it.

[eliakon]

Chi use in rifts does not work without reworking everything about it and giving chi scores to everything.
that said, Copying Combat styles and Chi maneuvers is possible, just get the super power, Natural combat ability.

There wouldn't be any reason to rework how chi works to use it with Rifts, and not like it'd be that hard to give something a chi score since it's normally defaulted to your PE score.

..
LOL. chi has to reworked into every class and combination... otherwise you end up with a mess.
See Rifter 3 for the first attempt at including chi in Rifts.

I really have no idea why you think that to be the case, because there's nothing about Chi that would make a mess of anything in Rifts let alone require you to rework everything in the game for it.

The issues I can see off hand are
-who, if anyone should get more chi
-what things are negative chi and what things are positive chi
-how does magic/psionics/superpowers/etc interact with chi
-who can/can not have chi abilities
-how wide spread is the knowledge of chi

that's just a few things. Yes its possible to put into a game. But it will have profound consequences to do so, and will require changing certain basic assumptions of one of the game lines.

[Nightmask]

There wouldn't be any reason to rework how chi works to use it with Rifts, and not like it'd be that hard to give something a chi score since it's normally defaulted to your PE score.

..
LOL. chi has to reworked into every class and combination... otherwise you end up with a mess.
See Rifter 3 for the first attempt at including chi in Rifts.

I really have no idea why you think that to be the case, because there's nothing about Chi that would make a mess of anything in Rifts let alone require you to rework everything in the game for it.

The issues I can see off hand are
-who, if anyone should get more chi
-what things are negative chi and what things are positive chi
-how does magic/psionics/superpowers/etc interact with chi
-who can/can not have chi abilities
-how wide spread is the knowledge of chi

that's just a few things. Yes its possible to put into a game. But it will have profound consequences to do so, and will require changing certain basic assumptions of one of the game lines.

Most of that is already covered in the original Conversion book and in the Q&A in the Ninjas and Superspies book, nothing about it requiring any kind of major revision as you suggest and not going to have 'profound consequences', what things chi can and can't do aren't going to create some kind of 'that's not Rifts!' event, just as including PPE in Robotech isn't going to have any kind of 'profound consequences'. You may have localized differences due to the availability of rare MA providing Chi abilities but not anything world-shaking, except perhaps due to the PC causing such an event (like say a rifted in N&SS Dedicated MA seeking to spread his knowledge to everyone to give them a better chance at fighting back).

[kongol]

Wow, I'm learning more about the system and how it interacts with the whole chi thing just by reading the discussion. This is actually very helpful.

[Nightmask]

Wow, I'm learning more about the system and how it interacts with the whole chi thing just by reading the discussion. This is actually very helpful.

Chi itself doesn't really have much overlap with PPE or ISP, but it is the only esoteric energy in the setting that has positive and negative flavors (and apparently some immortals can create/become a neutral flavor of chi). The training to manipulate it therefor is quite different from what occurs with PPE and ISP and it has different ways of expressing itself. There likely weren't many people if any on Rifts Earth prior to the cataclysm that had such training and what was passed down ended up changing over time as the practitioners had to adapt to the more magically heavy nature of Rifts Earth and lost their focus until they became PPE practitioners rather than Chi practitioners.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Looking for this symbol: ≠ ?

Sorry, both the N&S text and the HU2 text say that AM's are DMAs's.

Considered to be is not the same as Is the same.
A DMA does not get access to the AM powers, nor do they have the same skills, nor do they share XP tables.
In theory yes, an AM was probably a DMA back in the day....but he is now an AM.

None of which really matters in Rifts much, but meh

(and yes that is what =/= is, for those of us that don't play around with funky character sets)

Sorry, not "in theory"..... both the N&S text and the HU2 text say that AM's are DMAs's when talking about them having MAF's.. If you do not believe me the Take out your books an look it up before acquiring 'foot in mouth', again.

Sorry, this whole topic is about Chi Users so saying "Sorry this is rifts" does not mean anything cause the topic is about things that are only detailed in the N&S and MC books.

[kongol]

Sorry, this whole topic is about Chi Users so saying "Sorry this is rifts" does not mean anything cause the topic is about things in the N&S and MC books.

And since my question being titled "Chi Users in RIFTS" the answer "Sorry this is RIFTS" makes no sense to me anyways. My rather inexperienced two cents anywho.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The only Text detailing Chi Users is found in the N&S Book and the MC book.

In other words....There is no Text in Any Rifts Book that details anything about Chi Users (excepting the RCB1&RCB1r). Rifts Books only Detail classes that are PPE users and ISP users.

Thus my quoted statement.